NationStates Jolt Archive


Will the subprime crisis change modern western capitalism?

Neu Leonstein
21-05-2008, 04:19
First of all, this thread is a vehicle to make sure everyone has a go at reading this week's special report in The Economist on how modern banking and the subprime crisis are connected. It's long, but more than worth it.

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=11376185
Barbarians at the vault

Modern finance is under attack. Yet the banking system has done much better than it is given credit for

BANKS have endured a brutal nine months since credit markets froze in August. Losses and write-downs already total $335 billion; many of their best businesses have disappeared. In developed economies, almost all banks are facing economic and regulatory headwinds that will cut revenues and jobs. Yet the biggest danger facing Western finance is not a fall in its earning power but a loss of faith in how it works.

Two criticisms assail the industry, one based on fairness and the other on efficiency. The first argues that finance is rigged to enrich bankers, rather than their customers, shareholders or the economy at large. Some worry about the way bonuses are calculated; others about moral hazard. Bankers will take wild bets because they know they will be bailed out by the taxpayer. Look at Bear Stearns or Northern Rock.

The second, deeper question is whether a market-based approach to finance is efficient. Some Chinese officials claim the Western system has been shown up by the crisis (see article (http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11376444)). This week Germany's president demanded that the “monster” of financial markets “be put back in its place”: bankers had caused a “massive destruction of assets”. The critics do not lack ammunition. The lapses in credit-underwriting in the subprime-mortgage market hardly reflect a wise allocation of capital. The opacity of the shadow banking system and the mind-boggling complexity of those toxic asset-backed products have raised doubts about the discipline of the market.

Forever blowing bubbles

Be careful. It is not just that a rush to regulate is seldom wise: witness Sarbanes-Oxley, the governance act hurried through in the wake of the corporate scandals earlier this decade. The current assault is dangerous because it mixes a number of small truths with a big, alluring myth. The fiddly verities concern the ways in which finance can indeed be made a bit more efficient or fairer. But you can make those changes only if you dismiss the myth: that finance can somehow be stripped of its failures and perfected. Bubbles, excess and calamity are part of the package of Western finance. And still it is worth it.

Some change is desirable and inevitable. Most of it will be supplied, belatedly, by the market itself—especially if it is bathed in the cleansing sunlight of transparency. America's mortgage business is already transformed. Hundreds of unregulated lenders have disappeared, as has the fatally lazy assumption that house prices do not fall. Demand for complex securitised products has shrivelled and the most complex may never come back. The safest forecast in banking is that the next crisis will not be rooted in America's mortgage market.

Regulators also have lessons to learn. Most of them come in two categories. The first is to take a broader view of risk. That means looking at off-balance-sheet assets and at gross exposures (Jérôme Kerviel, accused of losing Société Générale $7.2 billion, went unnoticed because managers were watching only his net positions). For national supervisors, it requires a lead regulator with a remit to watch the system. Internationally, the global capital markets would ideally have global regulatory norms—or at least more co-operation between national authorities. Now that the investment banks know the central banks will stand behind them, they also need closer scrutiny and higher capital standards. For the moment supervisors need monitor only what banks lend hedge funds, but you could imagine some hedge funds becoming so central to the system that they too need direct attention.

The second change in philosophy is to bully banks to build buffers when times are good so they have stronger defences when times are bad. The system has come to amplify the extremes of the cycle. Fair-value accounting, which pegs assets to current market prices rather than their historic value, leads to downward (and upward) spirals in asset prices, and hence leverage. Banks' risk models have been backward-looking, so no time appeared safer than the moment before the bubble burst. Working out when an asset boom has become a bubble is not easy—just as it is hard to use monetary policy to lean against asset-price bubbles. But rapid growth, whether in asset prices or market share, should be a signal to worry, not relax. And if banks are to be subject to the firmer discipline of fair-value accounting, it makes sense to have extra padding.

These changes would certainly come at a cost—which is one reason to weigh them more carefully than the framers of Sarbanes-Oxley did. They would have the effect of increasing the amount of capital and liquidity that banks set aside when risks are building, and reducing the amount of leverage they can take on. That would reduce the size and capacity of the industry, although not the size of individual institutions: one result of the crisis is that universal banks are likely to become even more hulking as they seek the benefits of diversification.

On balance, these costs are worth paying to make finance a little safer. Other reforms don't pass that test. For instance, limiting pay or forcing bankers to take equity stakes in their business will not stop moral hazard: Bear Stearns had high levels of employee share-ownership and it did not know it would be able to call on the Federal Reserve. Indeed, whatever you do, finance will not be “fixed” in the way critics are demanding.

Rome or the barbarians: your choice

As this week's special report on international banking makes clear, the main structural causes of trouble—the collective misjudgment of risk; a zealous search for yield; and the failure of oversight—are deep-seated. In financial history they crop up time after time. Financiers are rightly rewarded for taking risks, which by their nature cannot be entirely managed away or anticipated. The tendency for success to breed complacency and recklessness is as ingrained in financial markets as it is in any other walk of life. However bankers are paid, they cannot just sit out a credit boom; they have to keep dancing. Regulators lack the knowledge, the clout (and often the talent) to keep up with the banks' next brilliant scheme.

That reads like an indictment, until you consider the alternatives. Western finance, to paraphrase Churchill, is the worst way to allocate capital, except for all those other forms. It is obviously better than the waste and dysfunction in China, where centrally planned capital is dished out to the well-connected. But it is also better than the financial system the West used to have. Thanks to the astonishing innovation of the past few decades, derivatives can help firms and investors to hedge risks (there are plenty of Chinese manufacturers who would be grateful for an easy way to soften the impact of exchange-rate shifts). Securitisation widens access to capital for borrowers and to assets for investors: it can finance everything from water utilities to film studios. Leverage brings more lazy companies within reach of determined investors and more homes within reach of poorer consumers.

It is true that financiers have enjoyed vast profits—and the vast salaries that go along with them (pay at American investment banks has been nearly ten times the national average). But the collapse of the credit bubble will bring that down. And despite all the disasters, there are signs of finance's resilience. In the past few months the banks have commanded enough confidence to raise $200 billion in new capital from investors. Bear Stearns and Northern Rock were calamities, but rare ones, because the vast overall losses were spread far and wide. This time, there has been no industry-wide government recapitalisation. After 20 years of growth, the flaws of modern finance are painfully clear. Do not forget its strengths.

That's not the special report, that's an editorial. In its support I also offer this:

http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/rogoff/files/This_Time_Is_Different.pdf

An investigation of financial crises over the past 800 years or so. It demonstrates lots of things, mainly that financial crisis is hardly new, and that nothing ever makes the risk go away.

The full report (which is not an opinion piece) is here:

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11325347

Links to the other articles of the report are on the right. Some of them get a bit technical, but that stuff is the key to understanding what is wrong at the moment. The bit about international banks failing (http://www.economist.com/specialreports/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11325567) is particularly chilling.

So my question is: what do you think of the financial system? What sort of changes to regulation do you think should be adopted?

As for concerns about the source: If The Economist knows anything, it's this sort of thing. The report is full of things like these:
This is the context in which to judge Mr Prince's [my note: ex-boss of Merril Lynch] notorious remark last July that as long as the music was playing his bank would still be dancing. His timing was spectacularly bad but his thinking was essentially correct: executives who say no to growth will not win favour with shareholders, even when everyone knows the system is heading for trouble. Claudio Borio of the Bank for International Settlements sums it up: “We wouldn't need regulators if the private sector could take care of things by itself.”
Yes, it doesn't conclude that capitalism is evil and doomed and banks must be abolished...but that might just be because it isn't and they don't.
Everywhar
21-05-2008, 04:20
No, I believe capitalism will continue more or less in the same direction until it becomes ecologically untenable.
Neu Leonstein
21-05-2008, 04:39
No, I believe capitalism will continue more or less in the same direction until it becomes ecologically untenable.
What about the specifics? What sort of changes would you like to see to banking regulation?
Everywhar
21-05-2008, 04:53
What about the specifics? What sort of changes would you like to see to banking regulation?
As a socialist, I can't believe I'm saying this, but if anything, banks should be made more subject to market forces. To the extent banks will get bailed out by the taxpayers of their home nation states, they will take stupid risks and sometimes it will come back to bite them...

I would like to see less focus on "rapid growth" and more focus on slow, sustained growth. I think that removing the safety nets supporting banks will cause them to be more careful about assessing risk, especially when it comes to over-estimating the length of periods of rapid growth, and more apt to try to moderate the global economy (what goes up must come down).

This is probably some vulgar parroting of Austrian economic theory which I know shit all about, so there it is. :)
greed and death
21-05-2008, 04:54
What about the specifics? What sort of changes would you like to see to banking regulation?

raise interest rates would be a nice start.
Neu Leonstein
21-05-2008, 05:06
As a socialist, I can't believe I'm saying this, but if anything, banks should be made more subject to market forces. To the extent banks will get bailed out by the taxpayers of their home nation states, they will take stupid risks and sometimes it will come back to bite them...
The problem with Bear Stearns was that it had issued a lot of what is called "credit default swaps". They are basically contracts that require the issuing party to pay out if another company goes bankrupt and can't pay up on its bonds. So if I own bonds of Wal-Mart, I buy a CDS from Bear Stearns and if Wal-Mart goes down the crapper and they won't pay me back I can at least get some of it back by using my CDS. Bear Stearns on the other hand is betting that Wal-Mart will be fine and I paid them for nothing. Anyways, those were worth hundreds of billions of dollars, and they all had "payable by Bear Stearns" written on them. Everyone and their dog somehow owned the things, and people used them to hedge precisely in case of recession and a lot of bonds going bad.

Letting Bear Stearns disappear would have wiped out all this money and tipped Wall Street over into something really bad. Remember, the Great Depression started with bank failures.

But to make sure that Bear Stearns couldn't simply get away with things, they arranged for JPMorgan to buy the firm for virtually nothing. That meant that shareholders (ie the owners) of Bear Stearns lost everything, but the CDS contracts didn't become worthless because JPMorgan simply took Bear Stearns' place. You can argue about the merits of issuing guarantees to JPMorgan that the Fed would cover any nasty surprises that were still lurking Bear Stearns' books and contracts, but that's probably down to a combination of supply and demand and Jamie Dimon (boss of JPMorgan) being a good negotiator.

Anyways, the owners of Bear Stearns did find out that things can come back and bite you. The question is whether the managers got to feel the consequences of their actions as much as they should have. But the special report in the OP has a articles on bankers' pay and management.

raise interest rates would be a nice start.
That wouldn't help right now. Like, not at all.

When the stock market collapsed in 1929, banks were the ones who lost out really badly. One or two went down the drain, and people starting running to get their savings out. Of course, banks never hold as much cash as people deposit with them, so they started failing too.

The Fed, figuring that people somehow had to be made to put their money back into deposits, put up interest rates. Deposits would pay more interest, so people would like them more.

But then that didn't work out so well...

And besides, that's not really a solution to the issues that caused this crisis with regards to banking.
Everywhar
21-05-2008, 05:22
The problem with Bear Stearns was that it had issued a lot of what is called "credit default swaps". They are basically contracts that require the issuing party to pay out if another company goes bankrupt and can't pay up on its bonds. So if I own bonds of Wal-Mart, I buy a CDS from Bear Stearns and if Wal-Mart goes down the crapper and they won't pay me back I can at least get some of it back by using my CDS. Bear Stearns on the other hand is betting that Wal-Mart will be fine and I paid them for nothing. Anyways, those were worth hundreds of billions of dollars, and they all had "payable by Bear Stearns" written on them. Everyone and their dog somehow owned the things, and people used them to hedge precisely in case of recession and a lot of bonds going bad.

Letting Bear Stearns disappear would have wiped out all this money and tipped Wall Street over into something really bad. Remember, the Great Depression started with bank failures.

But to make sure that Bear Stearns couldn't simply get away with things, they arranged for JPMorgan to buy the firm for virtually nothing. That meant that shareholders (ie the owners) of Bear Stearns lost everything, but the CDS contracts didn't become worthless because JPMorgan simply took Bear Stearns' place. You can argue about the merits of issuing guarantees to JPMorgan that the Fed would cover any nasty surprises that were still lurking Bear Stearns' books and contracts, but that's probably down to a combination of supply and demand and Jamie Dimon (boss of JPMorgan) being a good negotiator.

Anyways, the owners of Bear Stearns did find out that things can come back and bite you. The question is whether the managers got to feel the consequences of their actions as much as they should have. But the special report in the OP has a articles on bankers' pay and management.

Well, I don't have any opinion on bankers' pay, but my point is that one of the things capitalism is about is taking risks wisely knowing that you won't (and shouldn't) get bailed out all the time. At least, that is what I am told. :cool:
Neu Leonstein
21-05-2008, 05:29
Well, I don't have any opinion on bankers' pay, but my point is that one of the things capitalism is about is taking risks wisely knowing that you won't (and shouldn't) get bailed out all the time. At least, that is what I am told. :cool:
Yeah, there is this thing called "moral hazard", which basically means that if the downside gets less, the expected value more and the risk of an action becomes less, so I'll bet more on it. It works for insurances, and it works for corporate bail-outs.

The problem is that the alternative in the case of a bank is a collapse of the system and therefore the destruction of huge amounts of savings and wealth and a complete drying up of capital needed to feed the real economy.

I was so impressed with the way Bernanke handled the affair because the way things were handled in the end handled both sides of the argument quite well.

Anyways, commercial, deposit-taking retail banks have known for a long time that they'll be bailed out if necessary. That's why banking is such a heavily regulated industry, where capital or risk requirements are mandated by governments and enforced in one way or the other to make sure banks don't overstretch themselves. Unfortunately, banks have to stretch themselves at least to some extent in order to do what they're supposed to do, so in a really serious bank run no bank, regardless of how safe it is or how it is managed, can survive by itself.

Bear Stearns of course wasn't a deposit-taking retail bank though. Investment banks didn't have the same strict requirements put on them, because it was presumed that they could fail and it would be okay. It now turns out that Wall Street has evolved far beyond that, and today investment banks are just as important to the system as the retail banks. So the question is: how do we change the rules for them to take account of this new fact?
Everywhar
21-05-2008, 05:41
Okay, I'm going to ask a bunch of really stupid quotes. Please try not to get angry with me.

Yeah, there is this thing called "moral hazard", which basically means that if the downside gets less, the expected value more and the risk of an action becomes less, so I'll bet more on it. It works for insurances, and it works for corporate bail-outs.

What do you mean by the downside getting less? Do you mean that the crash is more or less severe?


The problem is that the alternative in the case of a bank is a collapse of the system and therefore the destruction of huge amounts of savings and wealth and a complete drying up of capital needed to feed the real economy.

Well then why not wait for the market to fix itself, and then say "no more bailouts"?


I was so impressed with the way Bernanke handled the affair because the way things were handled in the end handled both sides of the argument quite well.

Anyways, commercial, deposit-taking retail banks have known for a long time that they'll be bailed out if necessary. That's why banking is such a heavily regulated industry, where capital or risk requirements are mandated by governments and enforced in one way or the other to make sure banks don't overstretch themselves. Unfortunately, banks have to stretch themselves at least to some extent in order to do what they're supposed to do, so in a really serious bank run no bank, regardless of how safe it is or how it is managed, can survive by itself.

Now, this will sound like trolling, but I'm honestly not: are you basically saying that fully deregulated capitalism doesn't work?


Bear Stearns of course wasn't a deposit-taking retail bank though. Investment banks didn't have the same strict requirements put on them, because it was presumed that they could fail and it would be okay. It now turns out that Wall Street has evolved far beyond that, and today investment banks are just as important to the system as the retail banks. So the question is: how do we change the rules for them to take account of this new fact?
Hehe, I'm a Computer Science major, not an Economics major. So I'll say put more bytes into it... :cool:
Lacadaemon
21-05-2008, 05:41
It's really more than a subprime thing at this point. (As I always said it would be).

Anway, I think the way derivatives like swaps are traded needs to be regulated. Probably on an exchange like options. That probably would have gone a long way to heading off the bear stearns mess. (Which was probably really a bail out of JPM).

Also, I think regulation like glass steagall is going to come back into vogue. But I don't think anything will be done on the regulatory side until all the bailouts are over, which is a good way off yet.
Lacadaemon
21-05-2008, 05:48
Oh, yeah, and I expect there will be big regulatory changes about how ratings agencies function.
Andaras
21-05-2008, 05:50
All crediting does is postpone the inevitable crash and make it all the worse when it eventually happens.
Neu Leonstein
21-05-2008, 05:58
Okay, I'm going to ask a bunch of really stupid quotes. Please try not to get angry with me.
I don't angry about people asking questions. :)

What do you mean by the downside getting less? Do you mean that the crash is more or less severe?
Less severe.

If I can lose 10 or gain 10, the expected return is zero, and we could get anything between -10 and 10, so the spread is 20, the risk I lose money is 50%. If you bail me out should the number be negative, for me it's now between 0 and 10. The expected return is 5, the spread only 10, the risk of a loss is 0%.

Great deal for me, and it means now I'm gonna do this deal, whereas I really shouldn't be, because it's not a very good deal. Your interference changed the valuation of the deal and artificially jacked up its value.

Economists call it "moral hazard", but it's really pretty intuitive.

Well then why not wait for the market to fix itself, and then say "no more bailouts"?
Because the path back will hurt more than the damage done by preventing having to go there.

My lecturer had a pretty good analogy for it: you host a party and have to offer alcohol. The more alcohol your guests drink, the more they enjoy themselves and the better the party will be.

Problem is, at some point alcohol doesn't make you have more fun, it makes you sick, likely to destroy stuff or aggressive. Fun tends to go down at that point, and it can do so quite rapidly.

So your choice is between taking away the alcohol before it gets to that point and cleaning up the next morning.

Now, this will sound like trolling, but I'm honestly not: are you basically saying that fully deregulated capitalism doesn't work?
It's not so much a question of not working, because markets do eventually come back regardless of how bad the crash is (barring some sort of political intervention). But, to answer the question, in this case regulation and intervention is preferable to the alternative. If done properly (which could be a pretty big qualifier).
Tech-gnosis
21-05-2008, 06:47
What about the specifics? What sort of changes would you like to see to banking regulation?

Will you be sharing your thoughts on the above later? I doubt that there are many on here who know enough about the financial system to offer credible ideas. I know I don't.
Neu Leonstein
21-05-2008, 07:01
Will you be sharing your thoughts on the above later? I doubt that there are many on here who know enough about the financial system to offer credible ideas. I know I don't.
I reckon I'm too biased.

I know there'll probably be capital- and leverage requirements for investment banks, but I don't want there to be because fancy financial engineering is what investment banks do and what makes them such awesome institutions.

There'll probably be rules on securitisation and CDOs, but the design and trading of such complicated structures is something I could really see myself doing for a career, and I'd hate for them to make it boring.

As for accounting standards...well, that one is a tad tricky. In principle it makes sense, but if you combine it with capital- and leverage requirements it suddenly looks pretty unattractive (if you have to have x% of your assets in reserves and the assets can rise or fall in value by huge amounts within a single day, you're constantly adjusting your reserves).

What I do think will definitely happen is the establishment of some sort of council of "wise men" - ex-bankers, ex-Fed Chiefs and other wiz-kids who monitor things and point out the obvious. The report points out of course that even when everyone knows it's gonna blow up, your shareholders won't forgive you if you pull out too early...

Either way, I read the initial proposals made by the current administration on regulatory reform in the States, but they were really just stating the obvious. There weren't any fundamental changes in there (though I suppose it entrenched the Fed in what it is doing at the moment, which is trying to manage Wall Street), so we'll probably have to wait for the next president. McCain won't do anything much, Obama will ask his advisors...and judging from her rhetoric, Clinton will walk in there with a chainsaw and kill everyone.
Everywhar
21-05-2008, 07:25
and judging from her rhetoric, Clinton will walk in there with a chainsaw and kill everyone.
But at least in doing so, she will prove that she is tough.
Neu Leonstein
21-05-2008, 07:36
But at least in doing so, she will prove that she is tough.
As if the world needed any more proof.

Anyways, here is more detail on the proposals coming from the various presidential hopefuls:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=13560962
Enormous Gentiles
21-05-2008, 07:39
But at least in doing so, she will prove that she is tough.

And then she'll cry afterwards, just to let everyone know that she's also sensitive.

/bad joke.
Everywhar
21-05-2008, 07:50
And then she'll cry afterwards, just to let everyone know that she's also sensitive.

/bad joke.
Unfortunately, crying is no longer in vogue.
Cameroi
21-05-2008, 10:12
no one thing alone will, but a combination of factors eventually may.

the fed's 'paper hanging', i.e. printing more currency out of thin air, to bail out fly by night loan shark lenders, is however, one of those factors.

and yes, it may, some are saying inevitably will, prove to be one of them.

peak oil and the effects of global climate chainge, some of yet reamain unknown, are among the several others.

because a thing has never collapsed, when or because a lot of people expeted it to, is no reason to assume it won't ever.

it MIGHT not ever, but it COULD just as easily on december 21st of 2012, or the day after tommarrow, or any other day you might care to imagine.

=^^=
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