NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7410367.stm
US President George W Bush has made a personal apology over the shooting of a Koran by an American soldier, Iraq's government has said in a statement.

Prime Minister Nouri Maliki's office said Mr Bush had promised to send the accused American sniper to trial.

The soldier was sent home by the US military after the Muslim holy book was found riddled with bullet holes at a shooting range by Iraqi police.

The White House did not immediately comment on Mr Bush's reported apology.

The US military said last week that the soldier had been removed from his unit, sent home, and would be disciplined.

He was unnamed, but was said to be a staff sergeant in a sniper section.

'People's anger'

Mr Maliki's office said in a statement that Mr Bush had made a personal apology in a telephone call to the prime minister.

"The American president apologised on behalf of the United States... promising to present the soldier to the courts," Reuters news agency quoted the statement as saying.

Mr Maliki had expressed the anger felt by the Iraqi people and the nation's government, his office said.

A US military spokesman last week described the shooting as "both serious and deeply troubling", but stressed it was an "isolated incident and a result of one soldier's actions".

US military authorities have already apologised to community leaders in the area, west of Baghdad.

The military presented the elders with a new copy of the Koran.
I didn't think this would be talked about as much as the number of people dead and dying as a result of this war. A distraction perhaps? Or maybe people are just tired of hearing about the other "casualties". Thoughts?

What is the book's medical condition? Is it going to be okay? Has someone informed the next of kin?

Give some insurgents a Bible and tell them to do the same thing because at the end of the day, it's just another book. Yes, it's just a book.

Good to see the hearts and minds strategy is fully understood by the average marine.

I think that the media thought that "US soldier uses Koran for target practice" would quickly blow up into something much larger than the Mohammed cartoons. Luckily, the US reacted quickly to avert this. It'll fade into obscurity.

George W. Bush is a crack-head. This news proves it. *nod* :)

Give some insurgents a Bible and tell them to do the same thing because at the end of the day, it's just another book. Yes, it's just a book.
And it's just a flag. Are you happy for people to burn the American flag? I, being Australian, have no problem, with people burning the Aussie flag (assuming they've taken proper fire precautions), because I believe in free speech and freedom of expression. I'd be interested in your answer though.

It's not just a book. Otherwise, why would he be shooting it. It's a symbol. It's what it represents. I also think "So what, it's just a book" on a personal level, but I understand that it's so much more for a significant portion of Muslims.

Actually the reason the Qur'an is so sacred to muslims is because to them it IS the word of God. Whereas the Bible is the inspired word of God and Jesus as recorded by various prophets and followers, the Qur'an is seen by Muslims as the direct word of God as revealed to Muhammed by the Angel Gabriel, and recorded by him.

Therefore, to them, it's a lot more than just a book.

At the very least, if you're that fucking dumb to not realize that perhaps that kind of actions might have some large political ramifications, you really shouldn't be handling deadly weaponry. Or maybe the man is a genius and that was the only way he could get home, at this point.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7410367.stm

I didn't think this would be talked about as much as the number of people dead and dying as a result of this war. A distraction perhaps? Or maybe people are just tired of hearing about the other "casualties". Thoughts?Well, considering that the soldier in question spat on everything that my Grandfather fought for during WWII, an apology is certainly in order.

These "So what? It's just a book" comments are...I don't know. What can I say? Arrogant? Idiotic?

I mean: your country just invaded theirs...made their country a living hell, and then you shoot up their holy book...and tell them it's just a book...

The freedom of speech and expression...does it come with the right to desecrate somebody else's holy book? What about their freedom and right to honour whatever book they choose to and expect it to be respected it as such?

And it's just a flag. Are you happy for people to burn the American flag? I, being Australian, have no problem, with people burning the Aussie flag (assuming they've taken proper fire precautions), because I believe in free speech and freedom of expression. I'd be interested in your answer though.

It's not just a book. Otherwise, why would he be shooting it. It's a symbol. It's what it represents. I also think "So what, it's just a book" on a personal level, but I understand that it's so much more for a significant portion of Muslims.

Seeing as how I'm Canadian, I don't give a flying rat's ass if someone wants to torch the American flag. I have zero obligation to that rag. That aside, I also don't care if someone burns a Canadian flag because at the end of the day it's just a piece of fabric and all the fire in the world cannot destroy the nation behind the flag as long as there are still people who believe in the nation.

I like you do assume that proper fire precautions are in place. Otherwise someone could get hurt. Fire and flesh aren't a healthy combination.

As for the book, yes it is significant, but, really, it's just a book. You can shoot the book and destroy the pages within it but you cannot destroy the ideas it holds as long as there are people who know what was in those pages. Hence, my suggestion that they give the insurgents the right to do the same thing to the Bible or any other holy book. Then they can see it doesn't make a difference because people won't stop believing just because some marine with a gun decided to use a book for target practice.

Wow. What an utterly worthless peice of news.


Wait...let me get this straight....a soldier abuses a fucking book, and Bush quickly apologizes for it. A soldier abuses a few detianees, and Bush looks the other way.



What an epic preisdent we have.

What is the book's medical condition? Is it going to be okay? Has someone informed the next of kin?

The book is stable but in critical condition. It will be touch and go for the next week. The Koran's parents, Mr. And Mrs Testament, have been informed. If the Koran dies his live-in same-sexed "companion", the Book of Mormon, stands to inherit his entire estate

The freedom of speech and expression...does it come with the right to desecrate somebody else's holy book?

In general or for a soldier in Iraq? The soldier should clearly be disciplined, but if he was at home, acting as a private citizen, then of course he'd have a right to do whatever he wanted with a copy of the Qur'an.

What about their freedom and right to honour whatever book they choose to and expect it to be respected it as such?

How would my freedom to destroy a copy of the Qur'an (I wouldn't personally do so because I dislike book burning and other anti-intellectualism, but I'd support anyone's right to do so) infringe on their freedom of religion? I'm not stopping them from believing in its divine inspiration, and neither am I stopping them from treating it in whatever way seems respectful to them.

I imagine some Jews feel their scriptures are being desecrated every time a Christian refers to them as the 'Old' Testament (i.e. something outdated and superceded), but that doesn't give them the right to control what other people call their book.

Many Christians feel offended when a Muslim says that Jesus wasn't the son of God, Paul was a charlatan and the Bible has been corrupted, but they don't have a right to stop Muslims from saying or believing just that.

Religious believers have the same rights everyone else has: the right to worship freely (as long as their act of worship doesn't conflict with reasonable criminal law) and the freedom of speech to spread their faith (providing this doesn't result in incitement to violence, libel etc.). They don't have a special right to force everyone else to curtail their freedoms in deference to their personal beliefs.

The book is stable but in critical condition. It will be touch and go for the next week. The Koran's parents, Mr. And Mrs Testament, have been informed. If the Koran dies his live-in same-sexed "companion", the Book of Mormon, stands to inherit his entire states

You just won the thread.

I'm sorry, but there is no voting option I can choose from in the poll. I think what the soldier did was disrespectful and in the current political state of affairs worldwide, removing him from duty in the middle east is a good idea. However, a trial, court martial possibility? I think that is a bit much. What are the odds we do that if he shot a Bible or a Book of Mormon?

So, if I could vote, "Disrespectful, properly re-assigned to other duties, but a trial? Give me a break!" that is what I would choose.

It's just a book, but it is also just a stupid thing to do.

I mean seriously, the guy could have shot at anything to express his anger, but no, he had to shoot at the one thing that Iraqi hold at heart, even though it doesn't fully describe any Iraqi.

Such a gesture just goes to show the huge misunderstanding of both the book and the people who read it.

Now for a president to apologize personaly for that...I just don't know if that was the right thing to do. Maybe getting the actual soldier to apologize would have been more...appropriate.

I think his story that he didn't realize it was the Koran is possibly true. The damn things are only written in Arabic. and the symbol on the front is an Arabic letter which is not easily recognizable like the cross or Ohhhhmmm.
The guy is a sniper and to him this was just like another something he could see if he could shoot out certain pieces of the design or not. If he really thought it was the Koran he likely would have taken it home to brag about it to his gun nut buddy friends.

Put him on trial for being a dunderheided twat, but nothing more.

I think his story that he didn't realize it was the Koran is possibly true. The damn things are only written in Arabic. and the symbol on the front is an Arabic letter which is not easily recognizable like the cross or Ohhhhmmm.
The guy is a sniper and to him this was just like another something he could see if he could shoot out certain pieces of the design or not. If he really thought it was the Koran he likely would have taken it home to brag about it to his gun nut buddy friends.

You're joking, right?

You're joking, right?

seriously how am I am I supposed to knowhttp://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/koran.gif
equals Koran. Perhaps if they devolved a type system for Arabic or used the crescent moon.
If you don't know Arabic it is impossible to tell Koran from Hadith, from Arabic translation of Plato.

seriously how am I am I supposed to know equals Koran. Perhaps if they devolved a type system for Arabic or used the crescent moon.
If you don't know Arabic it is impossible to tell Koran from Hadith, from Arabic translation of Plato.

I'd expect a soldier who is living and working there to realise it.

And I'd also expect a sniper to train on authorised targets, not some random shit he's found lying around.

He clearly knew exactly what he was doing, don't defend that.

Another brilliant stroke of genius in Operation Win Over Hearts and Minds.

Another brilliant stroke of genius in Operation Win Over Hearts and Minds.

Obviously someone didn't get the memo.

Yea, to you and me, its just a book, to them it means something. How would he like it if I put a few 5.56's into something important to him? Wallet? Computer? Car? He would be enraged...

I can se the fresh wave of violence coming...
^OK that might be a little exaggerated but it certainly don't help the Allied cause out there...

If I'm honest,

You never hear about this coming from British, or other coalition soldiers.

*Watches half the world Google, and post an article on 1 case occurring 25 years ago....*

Seriously, you don't =/

A key example of the typical stereotypical view that Americans have no respect for other nations/cultures. This seems true in soldiers anyway.

At least Bush had the decency to apologise.

What an incredible waste of ammunition.

Obviously someone didn't get the memo.
Well, at least he got the ammo.

Just lovely. Yet another bullet in the ammo for people to hate America. *sighs*

I just see it as another case of the United States pussyfooting around the fact that other peoples rights are more important than our own. Let them burn an American flag, let them shoot a Bible. Is anyone going to mention it? No. And it sure as hell isn't going to warrant a national apology from the offending nation.
I'm a Christian. If someone wants to shoot a Bible, I am not going to care. I'm not going to raise hell about it, I will just smile, and completely ignore the people. If you are shooting the Bible just for something to shoot at, then so be it. If you are shooting it to send a message, then I laugh at you. OOOO SCARY I'M SO OFFENDED. Go suck an egg. You aren't bothering me.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

The Koran - now available in two ply.

As an American, and as an individual ultimately responsible for the actions of all Americans, worldwide, I hereby apologize for the conduct of that soldier.

Shooting the book was wrong.
That's why we have targets... the books are for reading/burning for warmth.

Good on Bush.

Good on Bush.

Whipped Cream or Cool Hwip?

Quite frankly I don't care one wit about the koran being shot up. All I can say is that the soldier in question should have at least buried the thing instaid of leaving it where it could be found. I wouldn't have appoligized and if I had been President I would have releaved anyone who did of their duty on the spot. and I don't care one fig if anyone doesn't like what I just said. Now I will go off to some other thread that isn't a complete waste of my time.

Good to see the hearts and minds strategy is fully understood by the average marine.

It says he's a Marine? I read soldier, but I could be wrong.

Got to admit it's a clever way to get out of Iraq, though.

Schwullunde;13707618']Quite frankly I don't care one wit about the koran being shot up. All I can say is that the soldier in question should have at least buried the thing instaid of leaving it where it could be found. I wouldn't have appoligized and if I had been President I would have releaved anyone who did of their duty on the spot. and I don't care one fig if anyone doesn't like what I just said. Now I will go off to some other thread that isn't a complete waste of my time.

that part of the reason why I think he didn't realize it was the koran.
If it was he would have taken the bullet ridden thing back to the US to show off.
Or at least hidden it burned it, buried it.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.


Is that so?

*bombs America on trumped up charges, reduces the populace to third world living conditions, burns down Washington DC, declares victory*

I just see it as another case of the United States pussyfooting around the fact that other peoples rights are more important than our own. Let them burn an American flag, let them shoot a Bible. Is anyone going to mention it? No.

WOW. Nevermind that we've tried several times to make it ILLEGAL to burn flags, and even proposed a CONSTITUTONAL AMMENDMENT.


People whine about it all the time.

WOW. Nevermind that we've tried several times to make it ILLEGAL to burn flags, and even proposed a CONSTITUTONAL AMMENDMENT.


People whine about it all the time.

tried is different from succeed.
Not to mention the flag burning amendment never got passed congress and was mostly used as a political tool to brand those who spoke against it as unpatriotic during elections.

tried is different from succeed.

Burning a flag is legal. So is burning a Koran. Whats the issue here again?

Bush shouldn't have to apologize. If a soldier wants to shoot a Qu'ran, then they have every right to as far as I'm concerned. And no, I wouldn't have any different feelings if it was a Bible, Torah, American flag, or any other theological or national symbol. Like others have said, I value freedom of speech.

Bush shouldn't have to apologize. If a soldier wants to shoot a Qu'ran, then they have every right to as far as I'm concerned. And no, I wouldn't have any different feelings if it was a Bible, Torah, American flag, or any other theological or national symbol. Like others have said, I value freedom of speech.

Of course when it's a soldier in country that generally holds the Qu'ran as sacred text, the same country that the soldier's country is trying to keep in order against religiously driven insurgents that right becomes a fucking liability for the U.S. military and government in more ways than one.

Of course when it's a soldier in country that generally holds the Qu'ran as sacred text, the same country that the soldier's country is trying to keep in order against religiously driven insurgents that right becomes a fucking liability for the U.S. military and government in more ways than one.

I am not about to even attempt to argue that an action such as this, (in a country like Iraq), is not in poor taste and judgment. But keep in mind that Iraq is not as absurdly fundamental as other nations, (like Iran), but of course that's not a real excuse.

I am not about to even attempt to argue that an action such as this, (in a country like Iraq), is not in poor taste and judgment. But keep in mind that Iraq is not as absurdly fundamental as other nations, (like Iran), but of course that's not a real excuse.

The effects aren't just limited to Iraq. Anyone who's paid modest attention to Middle East politics will know this is the kind of shit that Al'Jazeera and Al'Qaeda will latch on to and broadcast repeatedly to turbocharge their propaganda and recruitment drives. This supposedly innocuous incident has at the very least potentially prolongued the "War on Terror."

The effects aren't just limited to Iraq. Anyone who's paid modest attention to Middle East politics will know this is the kind of shit that Al'Jazeera and Al'Qaeda will latch on to and broadcast repeatedly to turbocharge their propaganda and recruitment drives. This supposedly innocuous incident has at the very least potentially prolongued the "War on Terror."

Every second the US occupies Iraq we prolong the War on Terror.

The effects aren't just limited to Iraq. Anyone who's paid modest attention to Middle East politics will know this is the kind of shit that Al'Jazeera and Al'Qaeda will latch on to and broadcast repeatedly to turbocharge their propaganda and recruitment drives. This supposedly innocuous incident has at the very least potentially prolongued the "War on Terror."

Which is probably why it's a violation of the UCMJ to protest or make public political statements while in uniform. The soldier may have a right to shoot a Q'uran as an exercise in free speech, but while he's wearing the uniform, the speech isn't only his own.

So yes, he's gonna get some disciplinary action slapped on his dumb ass, but I gripe that this is being treated any more seriously than any other similar violation he could have made. Islam doesn't deserve special treatment.

I agree 100% that Islam deserves no special treatment. There is such a bullshit double standard associated with it, and I am entirely fed up with it.

Which is probably why it's a violation of the UCMJ to protest or make public political statements while in uniform. The soldier may have a right to shoot a Q'uran as an exercise in free speech, but while he's wearing the uniform, the speech isn't only his own.

So yes, he's gonna get some disciplinary action slapped on his dumb ass, but I gripe that this is being treated any more seriously than any other similar violation he could have made. Islam doesn't deserve special treatment.

Thats provided they can prove the solider knew it was the koran. the burden of proof is an annoying thing. Even in the military.

Thats provided they can prove the solider knew it was the koran. the burden of proof is an annoying thing. Even in the military.

Not as much as you might think.

I agree 100% that Islam deserves no special treatment. There is such a bullshit double standard associated with it, and I am entirely fed up with it.

This isn't about "kow-towing to teh ebil moslemz." This is about giving no excuse or propaganda that the enemy can benefit from. You don't ever hear the insurgents or fanatics crowing about how they're successfully suppressing freedom do you? No. They always bitch about how "their" (i.e. their own hardcore twisted interpretation of) religion is being literally attacked.

This isn't about "kow-towing to teh ebil moslemz." This is about giving no excuse or propaganda that the enemy can benefit from. You don't ever hear the insurgents or fanatics crowing about how they're successfully suppressing freedom do you? No. They always bitch about how "their" (i.e. their own hardcore twisted interpretation of) religion is being literally attacked.

Another reason why free speech isn't as free in uniform. And a pretty good one.

I agree 100% that Islam deserves no special treatment. There is such a bullshit double standard associated with it, and I am entirely fed up with it.

BAAAWWWWWW, I am White, I am Christian, and I am ANGRY.

Attention American Soldiers: want to get out of Iraq? Tired of the desert and the heat? Well now's your chance. Pick up a copy of the "Q" and take it to the firing range. Unload and ensure that the books are found by the local militia. That way you will be sent back to the US for "punishment". You will sit in an air-conditioned room and instead of bullets have a judge yell at you, as you plead not guilty and get acquitted. Order your copy of the "Q" today: 1-800-getmyassouttaherenow. Bullets provided by Lockheed Martin. Blackout restrictions and other conditions apply.

I wonder was that the actual "Q" he shot, or Al-Quada's modified version. If Bush apologized for that modified version, oh...the irony...

As for the Hearts and Minds: do you think American Soldiers care about the War on Terror? Let's put you Mr. Patriotic or Mr. Blame da Troops, in Iraq, where the restrooms stink because you can't flush the toilet paper into the pipelines, where women are always fully clothed, where the heat is killing you, where you get shot at every day, where you have limited water supply but plenty of ammo, where the locals hate you and you can feel it, where you know you lost the war, and then I'd like to see your reaction. And keep in mind, the tour of duty is 12-36 months, but the government is nice: if you survive, they give you a year to retrain and then re-enter, to really fuck with... err discipline your mind. Still got that "Support the Troops" thingy on your car?

Look, I'm all for shooting the Koran or mocking Muhammad, but it's just not something you do when you're surrounded by millions of people that already dislike you as is and would be prepared to unleash nine circles of hell on you if you do anything that insults their religious beliefs.

Bush shouldn't have to apologize. If a soldier wants to shoot a Qu'ran, then they have every right to as far as I'm concerned. And no, I wouldn't have any different feelings if it was a Bible, Torah, American flag, or any other theological or national symbol. Like others have said, I value freedom of speech.

"Freedom of Speech" is used improperly in this thread I think. I'm all for people being able to express themselves, but why can one not just say that they disagree with Islam, or America, or Christianity. Why do we need to do everything in our power to offend others with our actions? I feel it's stupid, and ridiculous.

I disagree with what the soldier did, and as a direct representative of the US government, he is directly responsible for the offense that he caused, and should be relieved. Bush was right to apologize, not because he had to, but because that jerk of a soldier wasn't going to apologize for his disgusting behaviour.

Like I said, freedom of speech is fine. Going out of your way to be disrespectful, and rude in such displays is not appropriate.

As for the Hearts and Minds: do you think American Soldiers care about the War on Terror? Let's put you Mr. Patriotic or Mr. Blame da Troops, in Iraq, where the restrooms stink because you can't flush the toilet paper into the pipelines, where women are always fully clothed, where the heat is killing you, where you get shot at every day, where you have limited water supply but plenty of ammo, where the locals hate you and you can feel it, where you know you lost the war, and then I'd like to see your reaction. And keep in mind, the tour of duty is 12-36 months, but the government is nice: if you survive, they give you a year to retrain and then re-enter, to really fuck with... err discipline your mind. Still got that "Support the Troops" thingy on your car?

You aren't aware of much of what's going on over there are you? I direct your attention to the italicized parts of your rant.

Not only is the rest of it relatively pointless (after all, recall that these soldiers voluntarily joined a military force), but the italiczed sections are completely untrue. I've heard that many Iraqi's are very nice, and welcoming to the troops, and that much of the violence is due to external terrorism, rather than ongoing civil resistance. Additionally... in what way are we losing the war? Because you disagree with the war? Grow up, do some research, maybe try a little critical thinking, and then feel free to make statements, hopefully they won't be so easily refuted.

Additionally, the highest pro-war rates I've seen are actually from soldiers... so maybe think about that a little, maybe they can see the positive effects of their hard work?

Which is probably why it's a violation of the UCMJ to protest or make public political statements while in uniform. The soldier may have a right to shoot a Q'uran as an exercise in free speech, but while he's wearing the uniform, the speech isn't only his own.

So yes, he's gonna get some disciplinary action slapped on his dumb ass, but I gripe that this is being treated any more seriously than any other similar violation he could have made. Islam doesn't deserve special treatment.I'd disagree with this assessment. Consider that the US is trying to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis, and under these circumstances, shooting a Koran will do more harm to military efforts than shooting a Bible.

BAAAWWWWWW, I am White, I am Christian, and I am ANGRY.


Are you serious? There is a big double standard when it comes to Islam.

Shining example happened to me in a class. It was a class on women and religions. We were presenting our thoughts on the final day. Everyone seemed to want to bash Christianity and its treatment of woman. We were given 5 mins each to speak, but many people were given 10 or 15 mins to speak. I was the only one speaking about the ills of women in Islam. I was forced to stop talking by the teacher after a minute and a half of saying what I wanted to. And the thing was, I was comparing women in Christianity and in Islam. She was like "Thanks for your concerns, but we are moving on" and the next person went on to bash priests and got 7 mins to talk, and then class was over. Don't tell me there isn't a bullshit double standard.

Are you serious? There is a big double standard when it comes to Islam.

Shining example happened to me in a class. It was a class on women and religions. We were presenting our thoughts on the final day. Everyone seemed to want to bash Christianity and its treatment of woman. We were given 5 mins each to speak, but many people were given 10 or 15 mins to speak. I was the only one speaking about the ills of women in Islam. I was forced to stop talking by the teacher after a minute and a half of saying what I wanted to. And the thing was, I was comparing women in Christianity and in Islam. She was like "Thanks for your concerns, but we are moving on" and the next person went on to bash priests and got 7 mins to talk, and then class was over. Don't tell me there isn't a bullshit double standard.

And is there an ongoing insurgency at your class that'll use anything they can twist into an attack on Islam as justification and propaganda to keep blowing shit up and recruit more people for their side?

Until then this little diatribe has jack shit to do with the delicate task of trying to convince the Iraqis as a whole that the U.S. presence isn't trying to "destroy Islam".

It says he's a Marine? I read soldier, but I could be wrong.

No just me being careless with terminology.

Well, considering that the soldier in question spat on everything that my Grandfather fought for during WWII, an apology is certainly in order.

Such as what, the freedom of expression? :rolleyes:

Such as what, the freedom of expression? :rolleyes:No, the Koran and religious freedom.

No, the Koran and religious freedom.

Religious freedom goes both ways. A person is allowed to disagree with a religion and use any means of expression to show he disagrees with that.

Religious freedom goes both ways. A person is allowed to disagree with a religion and use any means of expression to show he disagrees with that.Indeed. If the circumstances were different, he'd have every right to spit on everything American soldiers died to defend during WWII.

Is that so?

*bombs America on trumped up charges, reduces the populace to third world living conditions, burns down Washington DC, declares victory*


1. America was bombed. (But that's not my argument. I say if you are stupid enough to try and send planes to bomb our cities, that's your own ass.)
2. They were already living in third world conditions.

And no matter what I say, those of you who feel the United States has no right to be there will still feel that way.

My argument against this is the I would guess most of you have never been to Iraq. Even to the Middle East. You do not know the daily struggle that goes on there for those people. And as a soldier, I will inform you that it is not what is reported every night on CNN. Most of you people will watch a 25 minute special on the news and then you are instantly experts on the war. Talk to some people who have been there. Talk to some people who are from there, who lived through the mass genocide that went on, on a daily basis. Do you know what a wood chipper is? They have those there. But they use them for people. Now tell me we have no business stopping them from doing that.

WOW. Nevermind that we've tried several times to make it ILLEGAL to burn flags, and even proposed a CONSTITUTONAL AMMENDMENT.

People whine about it all the time.

And precisely why it IS legal is because this is America. We are ALLOWED to make gestures like that because we have free speech. In Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397 (1989), it was decided that burning the flag is a protected measure of free speech. Why most people think that this is kind of stupid, is that the very laws and government you are protesting against by burning the flag, are the ones that make it okay and perfectly legal to burn it.

Before you argue, my friend, do a little research.

And precisely why it IS legal is because this is America. We are ALLOWED to make gestures like that because we have free speech. In Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397 (1989), it was decided that burning the flag is a protected measure of free speech. Why most people think that this is kind of stupid, is that the very laws and government you are protesting against by burning the flag, are the ones that make it okay and perfectly legal to burn it.

Before you argue, my friend, do a little research.
Um... physician cure thyself? He's referring to this. (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/27/washington/27cnd-flag.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin) You completely missed his point, which could have easily been avoided if you had done your research.

Um... physician cure thyself? He's referring to this. (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/27/washington/27cnd-flag.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin) You completely missed his point, which could have easily been avoided if you had done your research.


Hmm. Seems you need to do a little research yourself. Can you be so sure that THAT was what he was talking about?

How about I inform you. This is not the only instance that the United States has sought to make it an constitutional amendment, and I have done my research. I shall list them for you, since you seem so inclined to "buffet" them and just pick and choose as you please.

In 1989, the U.S. Supreme Court decided in favor of the rights of Gregory Johnson, who had been convicted of violating a Texas law by burning a U.S. Flag. In response to this and a similar 1990 Supreme Court decision, the U.S. Congress attempted to pass an amendment to the U.S. Constitution, granting the states the right to pass such laws, regardless of the previous decisions of the Supreme Court. The bill was rejected by just 34 votes on June 21, 1990.
The 104th Congress reintroduced the bill, and was passed by the House of Representatives on 6-28-95, by a vote of 312-120.

It was sent to the Senate, where it needed a 2/3 majority (66 votes) to pass. On 12-12-95, the amendment was defeated when it failed by only 3 votes.

On 2-13-97, Rep Solomon (R-NY) introduced it again, to the 105th Congress. And this time, it came pre-signed -- with 201 co-sponsors.


SO on and so forth, it has persisted through the times, and will continue until the majority of us get a fucking clue.


I did my research, do yours. Physician, cure thyself. I believe it was.


Information quoted and taken from the Chronology of Flag Burning and amendments http://www.esquilax.com/flag/chronlog.shtml

And just for the record, I realize personal attacks completely go against etiquette and are simply immature. So my apologies. I'll keep my arguments pertaining to the facts, rather than the poster in question.

No, the Koran and religious freedom.

The irony is killing me.

Hmm. Seems you need to do a little research yourself. Can you be so sure that THAT was what he was talking about?Let's see what he said:WOW. Nevermind that we've tried several times to make it ILLEGAL to burn flags, and even proposed a CONSTITUTONAL AMMENDMENT.
Let's see what the article says:
The Senate today fell one vote short of approving a constitutional amendment that would have enabled Congress to ban desecration of the American flag.

The vote was 66 to 34. To pass, the measure needed 67 votes.
So, while I can't be completely certain that this is one of the events that he meant, I can guarantee that the assumption that he did is much more likely to be correct than the assumption that he didn't.
How about I inform you. This is not the only instance that the United States has sought to make it an constitutional amendment, and I have done my research. I shall list them for you, since you seem so inclined to "buffet" them and just pick and choose as you please.

In 1989, the U.S. Supreme Court decided in favor of the rights of Gregory Johnson, who had been convicted of violating a Texas law by burning a U.S. Flag. In response to this and a similar 1990 Supreme Court decision, the U.S. Congress attempted to pass an amendment to the U.S. Constitution, granting the states the right to pass such laws, regardless of the previous decisions of the Supreme Court. The bill was rejected by just 34 votes on June 21, 1990.
The 104th Congress reintroduced the bill, and was passed by the House of Representatives on 6-28-95, by a vote of 312-120.
So despite you knowing that it isn't still legal because this is America, you went ahead and made that ignorant statement?

The irony is killing me.Meh. Prepare to be pwnd by history. (http://www.archive.org/details/PreludeToWar) (Relevant parts are at 1:00 and 5:00.)

Meh. Prepare to be pwnd by history. (http://www.archive.org/details/PreludeToWar) (Relevant parts are at 1:00 and 5:00.)

"Prelude to War," Chapter I of Frank Capra's "Why We Fight" series,
describes World War II as a battle between the "slave world" of fascism
and the "free world" of American liberty. In the "slave world," the
entire populations of Germany, Italy and Japan have been hoodwinked by
madmen, opportunists who capitalized on their people's desperation and
weakness to rise to power. These demagogues promised revenge for past
losses, and in the process convinced their people to give up their
rights and accept dictatorship. In the "free world," the principles of
equality, freedom, and liberty characterize the greatest leaders,
embodied in the works and words of Washington, Jefferson, and Lincoln.
This freedom is a threat to the fascist dictators of the Axis powers,
who claim that democracy is weak and must be eradicated. The film
claims that the ultimate goal of the Axis powers is to enslave the
nations of the "free world," a desire made manifest in the Japanese
invasion of Manchuria and Mussolini's destruction of Ethiopia."

Learn to read. More importantly, learn to comprehend.

Learn to read. More importantly, learn to comprehend.
I take it you didn't watch past the 5 minute mark then.

So, where does "Piss Christ" fall in all this?

So despite you knowing that it isn't still legal because this is America, you went ahead and made that ignorant statement?

Okay, I'm really trying to be nice to you.

Can you fucking read? IT IS LEGAL TO BURN A FLAG IN THE UNITED STATES.

Read the second post. Which happens to be directly following the first. And if you continue to insist my ignorance, without actually proving anything, I simply will decline from replying to anything you say, rather than going back and forth saying "You're stupid! No, you're stupid! Well my big brother will beat you up! Well my big brother is bigger than your big brother!"

Please. I did not post the entire chronological order of each time a bill has been passed or rejected because it simply has happened so much that it would clog the forum and I'd probably get banned. Thus, the link. Should you so care to use it. It has been rejected every time, and it WILL be rejected every time, until the United States is such a country that the rights of it's people no longer matter. Then, along with burning books, censorship of the press, religion, and assembly, it will also be illegal to burn the flag.

Okay, I'm really trying to be nice to you.

Can you fucking read? IT IS LEGAL TO BURN A FLAG IN THE UNITED STATES.No you're not.

You posted that it was specifically still legal to burn a flag because "this is America," and not because constitutional ammendments, which would have overridden the right to express yourself by burning a flag as determined in that trial in 89, barely failed to achieve the necessary amount of votes.

Yes. It is legal because this is America. Try speaking out against the government in Thailand, or North Korea, or China. Then you'll see the difference from when you do it in America.

America is what it is because of it's constitution and the rights that it gives it's people. It is fundamentally different than a large portion of the rest of the world. It's is because America gives it's citizens the rights:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

that you can speak out against the government.

Not because we humans have simply failed to produce enough votes to take away those rights.

Let's take your argument out of context, just like you are doing to mine.


Are you alive simply because someone has failed to kill you?

Let's take your argument out of context, just like you are doing to mine.


Are you alive simply because someone has failed to kill you?Yes. The only reason I'm still alive today is because I survived a series of potentially fatal events.

Well make up your mind, are you alive because no one has killed you, or because you have survived other events that were potentially fatal?

Or could it be, in fact, the sum of all those things as a whole?

Let's break it down more.

Is your computer still functional ONLY because I have not thrown it in a lake?

Does my car have windows simply because someone has not knocked them out

And I simply refuse to argue about trivialities with you any longer, as it is beneath me to waste my time in such a fashion.

Yea, to you and me, its just a book, to them it means something. How would he like it if I put a few 5.56's into something important to him? Wallet? Computer? Car? He would be enraged...

Yeah, except one thing: He shot a Koran, not their Koran. I, and certainly the soldier as well, wouldn't care if they trashed a computer. It would matter if they trashed his.

After all, it is just a lot of paper with ink (just as the Bible or any other potentially important text - don't give me the "what if it was *insertitemimportanttoyou*???"-retort). You can't demand reparations or whatever for seeing me destroy something that you don't own in any way. All you can do is being insulted, and that really shouldn't give you a case. Free speech *should* extend to being able to insult. Otherwise you ought to call it "Almost Free Speech", or live with your hypocrisy. You can't force somebody to respect. It is something you choose.

As for the soldier: Disciplinary measures are acceptable, because he took the responsibility of representation - and he did a bad job at that when he tarnished the image of the US - when he signed up as, you guessed it, a soldier.

You aren't aware of much of what's going on over there are you? I direct your attention to the italicized parts of your rant.

Not only is the rest of it relatively pointless (after all, recall that these soldiers voluntarily joined a military force), but the italiczed sections are completely untrue. I've heard that many Iraqi's are very nice, and welcoming to the troops, and that much of the violence is due to external terrorism, rather than ongoing civil resistance. Additionally... in what way are we losing the war? Because you disagree with the war? Grow up, do some research, maybe try a little critical thinking, and then feel free to make statements, hopefully they won't be so easily refuted.

Additionally, the highest pro-war rates I've seen are actually from soldiers... so maybe think about that a little, maybe they can see the positive effects of their hard work?

Past:
People like me initially: The war will be a major disaster that will cost thousands of American Lives and Billions of Dollars

Pro-war People: Why you Unpatriotic little brats. We need to stop Saddam now, he has Weapons of Mass Destruction, ties to Al Quada and we need to bring Democracy to Iraq.


Present:
People like me: We need to pull out now!

Pro-war People: Although we were wrong initially, we are doing well now, and you should "Grow up, do some research, maybe try a little critical thinking, and then feel free to make statements, hopefully they won't be so easily refuted."

Umm, how do you think I know that Iraqi toilets stink? Has it been covered by the press? NO. Have I been to Iraq? NO. Now where could I have possibly gotten that piece of information? Oh wait, soldier interviews, the ones that are returning from Iraq.

http://cbftw.blogspot.com/
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/20/USAR.OneWeekendMyAss.jpg/300px-USAR.OneWeekendMyAss.jpg

You are refuting my argument not by citing counter-sources, but by calling my argument crap. That's not refuting, that's name-calling.

Me: 2+2=4.
You: "Grow up, do some research, maybe try a little critical thinking, and then feel free to make statements, hopefully they won't be so easily refuted." 2 + 2 no longer is 4. I bow to your logic.

Oh my. I have been refuted.

Now as for the rest of your joke of a post: most soldiers joined voluntary to defend America but not fight for petro-dollars in a barren desert. Not a whole lot of people are joining now. In what way is the US losing the war? Waste of money, waste of American lives, no clear objectives and the government gives a :) when it comes to War Progress. If we're winning so badly, why aren't reporters allowed past the Green Zone in certain areas? Name me a single clear objective that the war has achieved aside from removing Saddam Hussein and dropping bombs on Iraqi heads? The secret service could have killed Hussein, not that complicated.

"much of the violence is due to external terrorism, rather than ongoing civil resistance"

Really? Proof please? And no, Bill O'Lielly is not a credible source.

Name me a single clear objective that the war has achieved aside from removing Saddam Hussein and dropping bombs on Iraqi heads? The secret service could have killed Hussein, not that complicated.

Nitpicking here, but if you're referring to the U.S. Secret Service you have seriously confused real life with that Bond marathon you were watching. The U.S. Secret Service is responsible for stopping counterfeiters and protecting the President. The CIA would have been the one likely to try and assassinate Hussein.

Nitpicking here, but if you're referring to the U.S. Secret Service you have seriously confused real life with that Bond marathon you were watching. The U.S. Secret Service is responsible for stopping counterfeiters and protecting the President. The CIA would have been the one likely to try and assassinate Hussein.

Actually if he is confused with TV, it would not be BOND (he works for Britian's spy agency) but with The Wild Wild West.

The Wild Wild West told the story of two Secret Service agents—James West, the charming gunslinger (played by Robert Conrad), and Artemus Gordon (played by Ross Martin), the brilliant gadgeteer and master of disguise. Their unending mission was to protect President Ulysses S. Grant and the United States from all manner of dangerous threats. The agents traveled in luxury aboard their own train, the Wanderer, equipped with everything from a stable car to a laboratory.

James West could have taken out Saddam ... well assuming Artemus Gordon came to the rescue with something ...

James West could have taken out Saddam ... well assuming Artemus Gordon came to the rescue with something ...

Yeah, but that would require Saddam Hussein to have been an Ottoman Empire Caliph or Sheik armed with a steampunk nuclear missile arsenal wouldn't it?

Nitpicking here, but if you're referring to the U.S. Secret Service you have seriously confused real life with that Bond marathon you were watching. The U.S. Secret Service is responsible for stopping counterfeiters and protecting the President. The CIA would have been the one likely to try and assassinate Hussein.

By Secret Service I meant everything: the FBI, CIA, NSA and US Secret Service, but thanks for getting the clarification. My point was, they could have done it and it would have been a lot cheaper too.

By Secret Service I meant everything: the FBI, CIA, NSA and US Secret Service,

But of those the only one that is the Secret Service is, well, the Secret Service.
The FBI, CIA, NSA, and The U.S. Secret Service are all seperate entities.

A family member died in Afghanistan yesterday. I really could not care less about a book getting shot.

Google my country's name, I wrote what I think and you will find it.

Zenspoliticalrants;13709749']who cares?
A family member died in Afghanistan yesterday. I really could not care less about a book getting shot.

Google my country's name, I wrote what I think and you will find it.

I'd say that muslims care...

never appologize to anyone

Give some insurgents a Bible and tell them to do the same thing because at the end of the day, it's just another book. Yes, it's just a book.

Yeah, but you got connotations. . .

never appologize to anyone

Sorry, I won't do it anymore...
;)

I'd say that muslims care...

I am playing the world's smallest violin for them.

So nice to see that as we stagger towards the mountains we still keep our eyes focused on the pebbles.

Zenspoliticalrants;13709749']A family member died in Afghanistan yesterday. I really could not care less about a book getting shot.

Google my country's name, I wrote what I think and you will find it.

I read it. I'm sorry for your loss, but I think you should realize that you are taking the same attitude as the terrorists, in advocating the death of innocents in retaliation for the death of someone close to you.

I am playing the world's smallest violin for them.

And yet you wonder why Iraq is still burning, Nero.

:rolleyes:

Yeah, but you got connotations. . .

And to your connotations, I say, "meh!".

Zenspoliticalrants;13709749']A family member died in Afghanistan yesterday. I really could not care less about a book getting shot.

Google my country's name, I wrote what I think and you will find it.

Who cares? I'd say the people fighting alongside the Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan care. Sorry for your loss.

I read it. I'm sorry for your loss, but I think you should realize that you are taking the same attitude as the terrorists, in advocating the death of innocents in retaliation for the death of someone close to you.

You have that luxury I do not. I am fortunate enough to be a member of the upper middle class, what the lefties call rich. I know everybody with influence from Pa that can be known. I intend to push them to ask for retaliatory strikes. i.e. IED in your town kills one of ours, your town gets leveled.

To the lefties that don't like it, suck it!!!!!

Zenspoliticalrants;13710263']You have that luxury I do not. I am fortunate enough to be a member of the upper middle class, what the lefties call rich. I know everybody with influence from Pa that can be known. I intend to push them to ask for retaliatory strikes. i.e. IED in your town kills one of ours, your town gets leveled.

To the lefties that don't like it, suck it!!!!!

What? You intend to kill a bunch of innocent people? Do you realize this will lead to more terrorism and more soldiers dying, not to mention the death of innocent people, which is usually considered a bad thing. Also, your idea that you could possibly push the government to do such an inhumane, idiotic, murderous, damaging to the war effort, and frankly evil thing because you "know everyone in influence" is rather laughable.

At the end of the day, it's just a book.

This is also true in the morning and during lunchtime.

Such as what, the freedom of expression? :rolleyes:

While in uniform, soldiers do not and have never had freedom of expression.

What? You intend to kill a bunch of innocent people? Do you realize this will lead to more terrorism and more soldiers dying, not to mention the death of innocent people, which is usually considered a bad thing. Also, your idea that you could possibly push the government to do such an inhumane, idiotic, murderous, damaging to the war effort, and frankly evil thing because you "know everyone in influence" is rather laughable.

Americans realizing that bombing people actually produces terrorists instead of spreading Democracy? :eek::eek::eek:

Zenspoliticalrants;13710263']You have that luxury I do not. I am fortunate enough to be a member of the upper middle class, what the lefties call rich. I know everybody with influence from Pa that can be known. I intend to push them to ask for retaliatory strikes. i.e. IED in your town kills one of ours, your town gets leveled.

To the lefties that don't like it, suck it!!!!!

Really, that's very sophisticated language for someone of your rank. Of course we believe you.

But all that aside, your views are simplistic if not barbaric. There is no warrant, no explanation as to why it is justified to raze entire towns because an American was killed.

Let me guide you through your logic and see why it's problematic.

You kill my relative, I destroy your town. *Now let's switch to an Iraqi*
You killed my relatives, I go out and try and destroy your town.
*Your method fuels continuous terrorism, in fact, you're desire to kill innocents only increases the likelihood of another one of your relatives being killed*

As well, you have no right to demand retaliatory strikes, just because someone killed your relative doesn't mean that you deserve to eliminate an entire town, senseless killing of innocents is unjustified.

:confused: I dont understand how anyone can think of allowing this soldier not to go to trial!!! It is completely wrong what he did!!! I am a Jew and my fellow Jews are being killed every day and every hour by SOME followers of that book, which Jews strongly disagree with on many points, but regardless, Jews, Christians and Moslems believe in the same G-d!!! And just because some idiots abuse their own Koran and contradict it to kill people (and it is a contradiction... I looked into it... its actually says that a Moslem is NOT allowed to kill Christians and Jews (Monotheists) because they believe in one god). That soldier is falling to their level and there is no doubt about that... Now, I'm not trying to sound superior, but Australian soldiers (I'm an Aussie, btw) in East Timor, Afghanistan and Iraq are rarely involved in controversies like this because we are an open and accepting country... when i visited the US once, it didn't seem so accepting... it seems that the US Armed Forces need to have a training session where they teach soldiers respect for other people! Only then will this 'War on Terror' truly be effective, because you have to gain people's support... you have to gain the hearts of the non-terrorists in order to stop terrorist growth and gain in Alllied support, not put a bullet in every arab that may have a bad belief (so long as they are not terrorists... in that case, shoot the im the place where it hurts most... lol)

in addition to my previous post, I must say I fully support the war and I'm considered by many to be extreme right wing. However when it comes to religion, i prefer pacifism... G-d wants people to use wars only if it helps people to get along in a spirit of tolerance... shooting a Koran will NOT help...

KORAN-----------------:sniper:-----------:gundge:----------:mp5:
------------------------US Soldier---------TerroristBastard----Aussie Soldier

in addition to my previous post, I must say I fully support the war and I'm considered by many to be extreme right wing. However when it comes to religion, i prefer pacifism... G-d wants people to use wars only if it helps people to get along in a spirit of tolerance... shooting a Koran will NOT help...

There's no way you can be a pacifist and support a war,

a) You're not really a pacifist

b) You don't really support war

c) Or perhaps you mean pacifist in a different way, but it's rather hard to tend, what is "pacifism, when it comes to religion?"

If the war is about religion (exception is if it is to 'wipe Israel off the map' which some muslims think is a religious obligation), then im pacifist. if it's about TERROR or other reasons, then i FULLY support it and may even fight in it (in the aus army, when i join)

after watching this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE0qSuMIpqo&feature=related

I just don't think Soldiers can do anything to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis, so i see no big deal about shooting up what just amounts to a book.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7410367.stm

I didn't think this would be talked about as much as the number of people dead and dying as a result of this war. A distraction perhaps? Or maybe people are just tired of hearing about the other "casualties". Thoughts?

If bush had just ignored the issue, it would have never gotten so much attention.

I'd disagree with this assessment. Consider that the US is trying to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis, and under these circumstances, shooting a Koran will do more harm to military efforts than shooting a Bible.

Oh, don't get me wrong. Shotting a Koran is more devastating to the cause of winning the hearts and minds of Iraqis than shooting a Bible in Kentucky would be. But I can still gripe about it. :p

after watching this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE0qSuMIpqo&feature=related

I just don't think Soldiers can do anything to win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis, so i see no big deal about shooting up what just amounts to a book.

"We can't make the situation any better, so... let's make it worse, I guess."

"We can't make the situation any better, so... let's make it worse, I guess."

from the video if a US soldier had risked his to save that copy of the koran from stray bullets we still would have done something wrong in their eyes. so best not to care.

so best not to care.

Yeah, it's just silly trying to not piss off the majority of the population of a country you're occupying.

Yeah, it's just silly trying to not piss off the majority of the population of a country you're occupying.

as they got pissed off that American soldiers had the audacity to save sick and starving orphans, it seems unavoidable.

as they got pissed off that American soldiers had the audacity to save sick and starving orphans, it seems unavoidable.

Maybe a sign that the US presence in Iraq is always going to be piss off the populace? Maybe?