NationStates Jolt Archive

Now, I'm not trying to be controversial, but it seems to me that most people I've encountered who aren't from the USA don't particularly like the USA.

So, do you like or dislike the USA*?

*and by this I mean its history/laws/leaders/government/media and so forth, not its citizens. I'm not talking about discriminating on basis of nationality here.

I like the hard-working spirit. I dislike the hubris. So feh overall.

Most people I've encountered over here tend to like certain aspects of America and dislike other aspects. That's pretty normal I'd say since no country does anything perfectly all the time.

Not even Sweden. ;)

Most people I've encountered over here tend to like certain aspects of America and dislike other aspects. That's pretty normal I'd say since no country does anything perfectly all the time.
*snip*

That's true.

Neither like them nor particularly dislike them, so "meh".

Well, even though I'm not from the USA, I may be a tad biased considering that I'm a natural born US citizen. I like the US, as a whole.

Now, I'm not trying to be controversial, but it seems to me that most people I've encountered who aren't from the USA don't particularly like the USA.

So, do you like or dislike the USA*?

*and by this I mean its history/laws/leaders/government/media and so forth, not its citizens. I'm not talking about discriminating on basis of nationality here.

I dislike those totally. But I do not dislike it's citizens, it would be unfair of me to.

I don't care either way your really not that important

*watches USian heads explode*

I dislike those totally.

I wouldn't say the media is that bad I mean it has the odd fairly decent show much better than daytime ITV

They hate us until they move here.

I wouldn't say the media is that bad I mean it has the odd fairly decent show much better than daytime ITV

It has one or 2 good shows, but that's about it. I would take British TV over USian one anytime, though.:p

I really like most of the citizens I've met in a social context. I hate your government.

Take from that what you will. I really hate threads like this. It's like asking if I like everyone with brown hair or something.

They hate us until they move here.

Been there. Done that. Still dislike it.

everyone who are not US citizens and dislikes the USA are terrorist and belongs in gitmo. The US citizens are protected by the first Amendment.

everyone who are not US citizens and dislikes the USA are terrorist and belongs in gitmo. The US citizens are protected by the first Amendment.

Thank you for bringing all the undecideds over to our side.:rolleyes:

They hate us until they move here.

Oh, I dunno... I've met a good few who didn't have much good to say about the place after returning here...

I'm from the USA and I dislike all of the things you have mentioned, more or less.

They hate us until they move here.

at which point they fall into manic depression from the lack of fun :p

I would take British TV over USian one anytime, though.:p

technically a certain top gear episode was produced in America ;) (which you probably missed but the NS reply threads brightened me up for weeks)

everyone who are not US citizens and dislikes the USA are terrorist and belongs in gitmo.

pfft your version of torture involves making us perform unspeakable sexual acts on each other, you may as well send us all to a tropical holiday and be done with it

Been there. Done that. Still dislike it.

Been there. Done that. Still dislike it.

Been there. Done that. Still dislike it.

That's 2 opinions against Khadgar's.

We have more pie per capita than any other nation on Earth. *nod*

We have more pie per capita than any other nation on Earth. *nod*

We need a pie chart to show that...good old Florence Nightingale.

We need a pie chart to show that...good old Florence Nightingale.

*Groans*

I am from the USA. I do not dislike the USA, as a whole. My personal opinion is that the concept of the USA was a really great idea that has since been lost in translation.

I do not dislike Americans, I just dislike the government at the moment, and a lot of the foreign policy.

Well, since its citizens aren't included (as I have nothing against most), let me say first that, yes, I dislike the current American government.

And what is there NOT to dislike?

Useless war in random countries.
Trying to force their notion of God in the government.
Complete disregard for human rights.
Complete disregard for global warming.
Corporation fellatio.
Hatred towards the notion of peace, diplomacy, actual freedom, and just about anything that isn't their restrictive, unevolved, hateful agenda.

So, yes, the current US government is just about the greatest threat to the world right now. And if you go "no, it's the terrorists", I will remind you that terrorism killed, as a whole, less people than the current Administration is killing, through malice or through incompetence!

Well, since its citizens aren't included (as I have nothing against most), let me say first that, yes, I dislike the current American government.

And what is there NOT to dislike?

Useless war in random countries.
Trying to force their notion of God in the government.
Complete disregard for human rights.
Complete disregard for global warming.
Corporation fellatio.
Hatred towards the notion of peace, diplomacy, actual freedom, and just about anything that isn't their restrictive, unevolved, hateful agenda.

So, yes, the current US government is just about the greatest threat to the world right now. And if you go "no, it's the terrorists", I will remind you that terrorism killed, as a whole, less people than the current Administration is killing, through malice or through incompetence!

Our government has been giving away free cheese for decades. *nod*

We have more pie per capita than any other nation on Earth. *nod*

Good point. But let's clarify: DESSERT pie, not meat* pie. I should also note that in the USA, toilet paper is provided free in public restrooms. Whatever our other flaws, these two facts put us well ahead of any nation where this is not the case. (I.e., most of the rest). Wiping your butt is a right and NOT a priviledge. My only response to criticism from citizens of the toilet paper hoarding nations is patronizing amusement: their civilizations do not impress me.

I have actually seen tourists and/or immigrants (*hard to tell sometimes) in Grand Central Station in NYC shoving toilet paper into pockets, awed by the fact that our culture is so generous with it.

*meat, or as I have seen in various places, a reasonable fascimile thereof.

I'm not from USA and I like it. I have deep respect for its economy. And i like it (i also like its history and Hollywood).

P.S. Actually, the only thing I dislike is sometimes arrogant attitude by some of its inhabitants.

Most people I've encountered over here tend to like certain aspects of America and dislike other aspects. That's pretty normal I'd say since no country does anything perfectly all the time.

I have to agree with you there.

I think it may also have to do with the people you have a good experience with Americans you are more inclined to like them.

I enjoy Americans and when in America I found it a pleasant and excellent country to visit.

When in Europe my experience with Americans was completely different I found them stupid, arrogant and down right annoying. All they ever did was talk about the shit. Really people who gives a damn if the toilets look different no need to talk about it everyday, Why the fuck did you just ask that question where you even listening the tour guide explained that 1 minute ago maybe if you shut up and listened for once you might learn something, all of you shut the fuck up there is nothing more annoying then listening to a bunch of Americans talking about stuff they know nothing about or talking about rubbish because they think they might explode if they don't hear someone talking in English for five minutes. [/rant]

I am always reminded of an old joke One American or a small group of Americans are good and pleasant, a large group and you can't stand to be around them

I should also note that in the USA, toilet paper is provided free in public restrooms. Whatever our other flaws, these two facts put us well ahead of any nation where this is not the case. (I.e., most of the rest). Wiping your butt is a right and NOT a priviledge. My only response to criticism from citizens of the toilet paper hoarding nations is patronizing amusement: their civilizations do not impress me.

I have actually seen tourists and/or immigrants (*hard to tell sometimes) in Grand Central Station in NYC shoving toilet paper into pockets, awed by the fact that our culture is so generous with it.

Really? What countries are these?

I have to agree with you there.

I think it may also have to do with the people you have a good experience with Americans you are more inclined to like them.

I enjoy Americans and when in America I found it a pleasant and excellent country to visit.

When in Europe my experience with Americans was completely different I found them stupid, arrogant and down right annoying. All they ever did was talk about the shit. Really people who gives a damn if the toilets look different no need to talk about it everyday, Why the fuck did you just ask that question where you even listening the tour guide explained that 1 minute ago maybe if you shut up and listened for once you might learn something, all of you shut the fuck up there is nothing more annoying then listening to a bunch of Americans talking about stuff they know nothing about or talking about rubbish because they think they might explode if they don't hear someone talking in English for five minutes. [/rant]

I am always reminded of an old joke One American or a small group of Americans are good and pleasant, a large group and you can't stand to be around them

Amen.

So, yes, the current US government is just about the greatest threat to the world right now. And if you go "no, it's the terrorists", I will remind you that terrorism killed, as a whole, less people than the current Administration is killing, through malice or through incompetence!

Remind away... but it's wrong. Most of the deaths in Iraq, the vast majority, are caused by terrorists. They are the ones bombing markets. That's why the Iraqis despise them so much. Same with Afghanistan. Yes, we are "there" but this does not give a terrorist a right to bomb a school- it's the terrorists' fault, and not that of the US, when this happens. They are human and not robots, and are responsible for their actions.

You might say, "they wouldn't do that if the US wasn't involved" but it doesn't matter. They wouldn't do that if they weren't demonically evil. They wouldn't do that if people around the world didn't lionize them. They wouldn't do that if their spiritual leaders didn't teach them how glorious it was. There's a lot of inputs to the causal chain, but in the end, the reason that a person drives a truck into a market and detonates a bomb is that he decided to.

And if the US wasn't involved, well, then you'd have...

India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Thailand, etc, etc, etc... not an American in sight.

I dislike their foreign politics but like much of the technology, products and entertainment they pour out, overall it's a cool country.

If you want the dirty details I get the impression crime is several times worse than here, healthcare is bad, public transportation is worse, suing each other is the national sport, the only 2 political parties are both horrible and American Christians are ignorant pricks. But none of that is reason to dislike USA, it's just reasons not to move there.

Really? What countries are these?


Greece, Italy, Spain, France, Korea, Mexico, various small island nations, a few others.

UK- not certain, they appeared to have the devices required, but may have been emptied out by scavenging immigrants.

Japan- avoided any opportunity to test the availability by careful planning. But the very fact that they publicize "paperless toilets" I find disturbing. On the other hand hygiene is a Japanese obsession, so whatever they've figured out probably works.

Canada has reached our pinnacle of development. They've earned the respect that comes with trepidation-free public bathrooms. Congrats, Canucks.

So that this doesn't need to come again, this is how it'll be:

Currently most Western Europeans like American movies and TV. But they also dislike "The Backward" South", and that's what they see when they look at Bush's government, so there is hostility to the US. This has only really evolved over the last five years and can change just as easily.

If Obama wins the election, all the Europeans will come to love America again. America has only been unpopular under Bush and before him America was widely respected. Lets face it, you guys make good movies.

If McCain wins things will probably stay about the same. The world will be annoyed America didn't go for the better guy and angrier still at the foreign policy, but the sheer relief that Bush is gone will probably conteract that.

They hate us until they move here.

No Khadgar. They dislike us until they move here.







Then they hate us.


You know what though. I don't see why everyone is up on America's clusterfuck of bad policies when they're own... and every country... is an equal clusterfuck of bad policies. I believe the failing is that America tried to make itself into a poster child for the right way a nation should be and tried to force it's clusterfuck of bad policies onto other people while the others said.. I have my own clusterfuck of bad policy thank you and good day.

America is disliked because it tries to be a role model... and nobody likes a role model. Why do we all build up celebrities only to watch and judge them by their every fault? Because, when we see someone out their. Built up in that way, we either think they believe themselvs better then us andwant to see them taken down a peg or because they make us feel bad about who we are and we want to see that they're just like us.

In reality, America is no worse then most other nations and, if given the opportunity, I'd rather live in Ireland, cause it is awesome. And in some cases it's better then other places to live. But America is just like everywhere else really. It has it's stupid people, it has it's bad rulers, and it has it's bad reality TV. God bless and GOD DAMN America.

America is disliked because it tries to be a role model... and nobody likes a role model. Why do we all build up celebrities only to watch and judge them by their every fault? Because, when we see someone out their. Built up in that way, we either think they believe themselvs better then us andwant to see them taken down a peg or because they make us feel bad about who we are and we want to see that they're just like us.

.

And there you have it.

Remind away... but it's wrong. Most of the deaths in Iraq, the vast majority, are caused by terrorists. They are the ones bombing markets. That's why the Iraqis despise them so much. Same with Afghanistan. Yes, we are "there" but this does not give a terrorist a right to bomb a school- it's the terrorists' fault, and not that of the US, when this happens. They are human and not robots, and are responsible for their actions.
Just remember who took Saddam out and let this stuff start up again, eh?
And if the US wasn't involved, well, then you'd have...

India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Thailand, etc, etc, etc... not an American in sight.
...

Ho hum. The last two particurly lame military islamist dictatorships in Pakistan were aided and abetted by the US, those being Zia-al-Huq and Musharraf. You even gave General Zia a 'hero of the free world and such' medal. Disgraceful, really.

As to India, that's usually psychos going cross-border from Pakistan and detonating themselves on buses etc.

Sri Lanka, aye, fair enough, as to Thailand, the US has, at various times, supported just about every side in that particular conflict, trained them up and funded them.

I'd love to see your etc. etc. etc. list, too.

If you want the dirty details I get the impression crime is several times worse than here, healthcare is bad, public transportation is worse, suing each other is the national sport, the only 2 political parties are both horrible and American Christians are ignorant pricks. But none of that is reason to dislike USA, it's just reasons not to move there.

Until some of those things start spreading to other countries...

Now, I'm not trying to be controversial, but it seems to me that most people I've encountered who aren't from the USA don't particularly like the USA.

So, do you like or dislike the USA*?

*and by this I mean its history/laws/leaders/government/media and so forth, not its citizens. I'm not talking about discriminating on basis of nationality here.

Meh, bits I like, bits I don't. Comes out about neutral.

I think there are places I would rather live first though.

UK- not certain, they appeared to have the devices required, but may have been emptied out by scavenging immigrants.
That and drunks. They're usually fine, though. Whereabouts were you?

No Khadgar. They dislike us until they move here.







Then they hate us.


You know what though. I don't see why everyone is up on America's clusterfuck of bad policies when they're own... and every country... is an equal clusterfuck of bad policies. I believe the failing is that America tried to make itself into a poster child for the right way a nation should be and tried to force it's clusterfuck of bad policies onto other people while the others said.. I have my own clusterfuck of bad policy thank you and good day.

America is disliked because it tries to be a role model... and nobody likes a role model. Why do we all build up celebrities only to watch and judge them by their every fault? Because, when we see someone out their. Built up in that way, we either think they believe themselvs better then us andwant to see them taken down a peg or because they make us feel bad about who we are and we want to see that they're just like us.

In reality, America is no worse then most other nations and, if given the opportunity, I'd rather live in Ireland, cause it is awesome. And in some cases it's better then other places to live. But America is just like everywhere else really. It has it's stupid people, it has it's bad rulers, and it has it's bad reality TV. God bless and GOD DAMN America.

Dear, where do you get your ideas that the world dislikes the US because it tries to be a role model? Far from it. Many dislike the US because the US tries to stick it's nose (and I'm talking about the government) where it hasn't been called to. Plus, the perpetuation of ignorance (again, sponsored by the government) is rampant and disgusting. It's not because America is or pretends to be a role model or is considered a paragon of virtues (nothing farthest from the truth, and if you believe it, you're very deluded). No other government, in it's right mind, I assure you, desires to be like your country. And before the bashing starts, let me once again clarify that I don't dislike the citizens. Ultimately, although their fault for perpetuing some things, is not completely theirs.

Now, I'm not trying to be controversial, but it seems to me that most people I've encountered who aren't from the USA don't particularly like the USA.

So, do you like or dislike the USA*?

*and by this I mean its history/laws/leaders/government/media and so forth, not its citizens. I'm not talking about discriminating on basis of nationality here.

I don't think so. I don't think it is dislike for America or Americans, more a dislike for the way we followed america seemingly blindly into a war based on outright lies.

Two great things about my country that immediately spring to my mind are the Marine Mammal Protection Act and the Endangered Species Act. However, I am quite turned off by the factory farms that infest the USA, as well as health insurance companies.

Just remember who took Saddam out and let this stuff start up again, eh?.

Irrelevant. We do not make ethical choices for the terrorists. They do.
.[/QUOTE]
...

Ho hum. The last two particurly lame military islamist dictatorships in Pakistan were aided and abetted by the US, those being Zia-al-Huq and Musharraf. .

And China.



As to India, that's usually psychos going cross-border from Pakistan and detonating themselves on buses etc..

You nailed the word. But that doesn't excuse them. They are either Humans and responsible for their choices, or they are dangerous animals and they need to be put down.


Sri Lanka, aye, fair enough, as to Thailand, the US has, at various times, supported just about every side in that particular conflict, trained them up and funded them.

I'd love to see your etc. etc. etc. list, too.

Russia
Turkey
Most of West Africa.
Algeria
Morocco
Nepal
Bangladesh
that's off the top of my head.

They wouldn't do that if people around the world didn't lionize them.

You know, you actually had a respectable argument, though one I disagree with, up to this sentence.

Let me clarify something here: The "world" has no responsibility for these people. THE US and THEY THEMSELVES do, but that you're claiming the WORLD "lionizes" them, or "emboldens" them or other such tripe is a shoddy attempt at responsibility displacement.

THE WORLD KNEW that war in Iraq was a mistake, THE WORLD TRIED to alert the US, and all it did was to claim the world "hates" them, the poor victims, and start the war anyway! PEOPLE GOT SCREWED OVER, TIME AFTER TIME, for being against the war, and that you now dare to try and link us, the world that tried to warn you, for your own good and the good of others, against starting this war, to try to link us to them, to accuse us of "lionizing" the terrorists that would not have a playground if the US didn't invade, is disingenuous at best, and deliberately fallacious at worse!

EVERY TIME people point out that the war was a mistake and that, yes, the US made it, there's someone to insinuate that the world supports the terrorists or "hates the American people".

Newsflash: IT IS NOT ABOUT YOU! It's about a government that claims to have the right to run roughshod around the world, kill people whenever it pleases, and behave, in general, no different from the terrorists it claims to fight against all the while making sure there's an endless supply of! A President that started a war under false pretenses, created, yes, more terror, because a reasonable person would assume that quite a few people would BECOME extremists after, I don't know, HAVING THEIR 12-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER RAPED BY AMERICAN SOLDIERS IN THE BLOWN-UP REMAINS OF THEIR HOUSE, all the while that same president sneers at anything remotely like talking, and claims that, as a major sacrifice for the war he started under false pretenses, he gave up PLAYING GOLF.

IT IS NOT ABOUT YOU!

Dear, where do you get your ideas that the world dislikes the US because it tries to be a role model? Far from it. Many dislike the US because the US tries to stick it's nose (and I'm talking about the government) where it hasn't been called to. Plus, the perpetuation of ignorance (again, sponsored by the government) is rampant and disgusting. It's not because America is or pretends to be a role model. No other government, in it's right mind, I assure you, no one desires to be like your country.

I think his wording was a bit unfortunate. The US does keep trying to present itself as the best of the best, the freest, richest, biggest, bestest and everything else-est nation on the planet. It's not so much a role model (although it would love to be one, I sometimes feel), it's more of a show-off. And people love to gloat when show-offs are found to be ... well, not what they claim to be. In that respect the example with celebrities is rather apt, really.

The nose-sticking comes with the above.

I do not like the US federal government, and if it were dismantled by a revolution tomorrow, that would be all the same to me.

I think his wording was a bit unfortunate. The US does keep trying to present itself as the best of the best, the freest, richest, biggest, bestest and everything else-est nation on the planet. It's not so much a role model (although it would love to be one, I sometimes feel), it's more of a show-off. And people love to gloat when show-offs are found to be ... well, not what they claim to be. In that respect the example with celebrities is rather apt, really.

The nose-sticking comes with the above.

QFT

I like the US.
I like the government system.
I do not like the people running the government system.

No other government, in it's right mind, I assure you, desires to be like your country. .


Please let me know when you intend to abandon your constitution and re-instate direct rule by the Monarchy.

I'd hate to miss the ceremony.

But they also dislike "The Backward" South", and that's what they see when they look at Bush's government, so there is hostility to the US. This has only really evolved over the last five years and can change just as easily.

If Obama wins the election, all the Europeans will come to love America again. America has only been unpopular under Bush and before him America was widely respected. Lets face it, you guys make good movies.
"Those who can not learn from history are doomed to repeat it". You are wrong. Vietnam war. Unpopular. Propping up dictators. Unpopular. Assassination leaders of other countries. Unpopular.
When the goodwill of the Marshall Plan starting disappearing, due to the US trying to be the worlds policeman, but just ending up being a corrupt policeman, the US has been unpopular. The reign of George the 1st started the real hatred. Clinton was O.K. except he sent a few cruise missiles to the wrong targets, and destroyed any hope the UN had of being relevant, so he didn't help much.

I think his wording was a bit unfortunate. The US does keep trying to present itself as the best of the best, the freest, richest, biggest, bestest and everything else-est nation on the planet. It's not so much a role model (although it would love to be one, I sometimes feel), it's more of a show-off. And people love to gloat when show-offs are found to be ... well, not what they claim to be. In that respect the example with celebrities is rather apt, really.

The nose-sticking comes with the above.

Saddly so.

Precisely my point, and it's even more unfortunate that it's citizens think it is a role model and that for that reason, the rest of the world hates it. Hate, anyway, is such a strong word and perhaps too important in meaning, to be adjudicated to the US.

Aptly. But sometimes, celebrities like Britney and Lindsey Lohan make me feel incredibly sad about the US. If screw-ups like that is what they offer to the public eye, I don't even want to imagine what the rest of US society is like.

Please let me know when you intend to abandon your constitution and re-instate direct rule by the Monarchy.

I'd hate to miss the ceremony.

I'll rightly do so, dear. But that'll happen the day rain starts pouring upwards and your country stops believing itself to be the World Police. Ok? And do get your world politics right. Spain is a democratic socialist nation, not a Monarchy. Ta-ta!:rolleyes:

Please let me know when you intend to abandon your constitution and re-instate direct rule by the Monarchy.

I'd hate to miss the ceremony.

You don't need to be a monarchy not to be like your country. The Brazilian Constitution grants every right yours does, but includes in itself a self-defense clause: We will only attack other countries when there's foreign aggression.

That alone makes our Constitution, along with the Japanese and the German ones, superior to yours.

Remind away... but it's wrong. Most of the deaths in Iraq, the vast majority, are caused by terrorists. They are the ones bombing markets. That's why the Iraqis despise them so much. Same with Afghanistan. Yes, we are "there" but this does not give a terrorist a right to bomb a school- it's the terrorists' fault, and not that of the US, when this happens. They are human and not robots, and are responsible for their actions.


You could say it was terrorists.... but terrorists didn't start the war.... We did. And the loss of life on the American is substantial and lays solely at the feet of the Government where it should.

Snip

Just wanted to mention that you failed to acknowledge the "If hillary gets elected" scenario.

And there you have it.

You don't have it at all. That quote fails to convey anything at all as to what I said or meant.

Dear, where do you get your ideas that the world dislikes the US because it tries to be a role model? Far from it. Many dislike the US because the US tries to stick it's nose (and I'm talking about the government) where it hasn't been called to. Plus, the perpetuation of ignorance (again, sponsored by the government) is rampant and disgusting. It's not because America is or pretends to be a role model. No other government, in it's right mind, I assure you, no one desires to be like your country.

Nanatsu. I like you dear, but if you're going to start selectively choosing phrases and misintrepeting them then you and I are just going to have butt heads. Now, if you read the sentences before that I stated that America tries to force it's clusterfuck of bad policies onto other people. It does this in the goal of being a role model. On trying to show everyone that it is the best and greatest nation around. And dear. Nobody likes that. Not a sole. I'm sure you all have your own reasons, but it all comes back to America trying to glorify itself. If America didn't draw attention to itself, it would be just like everyone else.

America is no worse then England, France, Spain, Mexico, Africa or any other place really. It's no better either. It's average. It has it's good points and it has its bad. Though, under Bush most of those bad points are far more glaring then they were before.

America is awesome.

Irrelevant. We do not make ethical choices for the terrorists. They do.
.
Uhu...

On the other hand, when Saddam was in control, terrorism was very much lower than its current level.
And China.
China doesn't claim to be a beacon of morals for the world to aspire to.
You nailed the word. But that doesn't excuse them. They are either Humans and responsible for their choices, or they are dangerous animals and they need to be put down.
You're waffling.
Russia
Aye, fair enough.
Turkey
Oh please. The Kurds are the US' mates, regardless of official policy.
Most of West Africa.
Largely caused by cold-war era dictatorships collapsing after being previously supported by the US or the USSR. See also the rest of Africa.
Algeria
Aid, both economic and military, to Abdelaziz Boutefika's government has prolonged the crisis by associating him with the US.
Morocco
Stopped about 15 years ago now. The civil war is basically over.
Nepal
Again, the US has lengthened the crisis by helping the government against the communists.
Bangladesh
that's off the top of my head.
Aye, fine.

I voted "Other". I dislike the current US government. There are many things I dislike about the US' society, politics, values and mindset and so on, but the US has also produced some admirable people. Its cultural output has been in many ways remarkable, despite being accompanied by a thick load of junk. I wouldn't want to live in the US, by I neither "like" or "dislike" it as a whole. I try not to make blanket statements of that sort.

Nanatsu. I like you dear, but if you're going to start selectively choosing phrases and misintrepeting them then you and I are just going to have butt heads. Now, if you read the sentences before that I stated that America tries to force it's clusterfuck of bad policies onto other people. It does this in the goal of being a role model. On trying to show everyone that it is the best and greatest nation around. And dear. Nobody likes that. Not a sole. I'm sure you all have your own reasons, but it all comes back to America trying to glorify itself. If America didn't draw attention to itself, it would be just like everyone else.

America is no worse then England, France, Spain, Mexico, Africa or any other place really. It's no better either. It's average. It has it's good points and it has its bad. Though, under Bush most of those bad points are far more glaring then they were before.

I did not, sweetie, choose and misinterpret your phrases. I happen to like you too. Actually, I concluded that you're just terribly misguided in your wording. I'm also aware that you did condemn your own country for it's clusterfuck of politics and bad actions, I didn't miss that. But it's terribly misguided of you to believe that the rest of the world hates the US just because it tries to be a role model. That is so untrue. You're sensible, inspect your own government, which is as fucked up as any other, and then get back to me. My intention is not to butt heads with you. This is merely debate. You presented your case, I did mine.;)

I really, really hate Chevy Chase but it would be unfair to blame the whole of the USA just for that.

The US does keep trying to present itself as the best of the best, the freest, richest, biggest, bestest and everything else-est nation on the planet. It's not so much a role model (although it would love to be one, I sometimes feel), it's more of a show-off. And people love to gloat when show-offs are found to be ... well, not what they claim to be. In that respect the example with celebrities is rather apt, really.


Indeed. Americans would be mocked a lot less if fewer of them were so blind to the faults and limitations of their own country and its history. The "We're American so we're the best and nothing we ever do can ever be wrong" syndrome makes Americans look childish and immature in the eyes of the rest of the world.

Which is unfortunate, because a lot of Americans are very smart people. They just tend to be drowned out by other Americans who feel an irresistable impulse to proudly assert their own ignorance, stupidity and blind nationalism, thus giving their country a bad name.

You know, you actually had a respectable argument, though one I disagree with, up to this sentence.

Let me clarify something here: The "world" has no responsibility for these people. THE US and THEY THEMSELVES do, but that you're claiming the WORLD "lionizes" them, or "emboldens" them or other such tripe is a shoddy attempt at responsibility displacement.



If you understood the pride-shame social paradigm that dominates the middle east, you'd understand that external praise or blame is very important factor.

Remember, when surviving suicide-bomber attemptors are questioned, the psychology revealed is that they feel they will win praise and gain pride by their actions. There's always a bell curve in the distribution of any psychological factor, and in a culture where the value of praise, and the corresponding impact of blame, is set so high, there will be those so far to the end of the curve that praise will drive them to kill themselves, and others.

It's interesting to note that in Middle Eastern society, and in Japanese society, and others that have such a powerful pride-shame paradigm, blaming someone directly is avoided unless that person is to be a complete outsider, criminal, enemy, etc. This is a feature of a system that has evolved to compensate for extreme reactions to pride-shame. You'll find the same dynamic in an American inner city schoolyard, where "dissing" someone is to be avoided unless you are prepared for the dire consequences. In effect, the dynamics of a Middle Eastern government and an American street gang are identical.

So you take a western psycho-social dynamic, extremely vociferous praise and blame; and a middle eastern psycho-social dynamic, stir them together and boom.

Please let me know when you intend to abandon your constitution and re-instate direct rule by the Monarchy.

I'd hate to miss the ceremony.

Not all modern democracies have consitutions, nor do they necessarily need them.

Not all modern democracies have consitutions, nor do they necessarily need them.
And those with written constitutions are not superior to those without written constitutions. *Ahem*

It's a set of lines on a map. I bear no ill will to such an arbitrary designation.

Uhu...

(Morrocan terrorism/civil war)
Stopped about 15 years ago now. The civil war is basically over.

.

You'll note that they are currently meeting in New York, USA, to negotiate an end to this thing you claim is basically over. They met last year, now they are meeting again. But no progress has been made. It's a ceasefire, it's not over.

I know why.

I am intimately familiar with the meeting facility. It is a luxurious, comfortable country estate with beautiful grounds. The negotiators eat fine food, sleep in the most well furnished rooms.

If you were a Polisario negotiator, would you ever tell anyone yes, it's over, we've agreed, and we're never coming back here again?

My solution- instead of posh hotel, we bring both teams to a glacier in Alaska. We tell them, here is a blue crayon for you, and here is a red crayon for you. When you have drawn a purple line on the map, the helicopter will return to pick you up.

It is also my solution to Israel/Palestine. Not India/Pakistan, though, because they're already arguing over a glacier.

And those with written constitutions are not superior to those without written constitutions. *Ahem*

Nope. Any form of balanced democratic political process based on empathic common laws is good in my book.
The US could do with a bit more diversity in its politics, European countries might benefit from a little more polarisation now and then. The middle ground should be the compromise reached by parties with different politics, not the ground the big parties lounge on...

Not all modern democracies have consitutions, nor do they necessarily need them.

You'll note, given the claimed location of the poster of the poster I was responding to, the nation in question certainly does have a written constitution.

And judging by their 20th century history, certainly needed it and is better for it.

You'll note, given the claimed location of the poster of the poster I was responding to, the nation in question certainly does have a written constitution.

And judging by their 20th century history, certainly needed it and is better for it.

*lol Since when do constitutions prevent political extremism? Ever heard of the Weimar Constitution? ;)

If you understood the pride-shame social paradigm that dominates the middle east, you'd understand that external praise or blame is very important factor.

Remember, when surviving suicide-bomber attemptors are questioned, the psychology revealed is that they feel they will win praise and gain pride by their actions. There's always a bell curve in the distribution of any psychological factor, and in a culture where the value of praise, and the corresponding impact of blame, is set so high, there will be those so far to the end of the curve that praise will drive them to kill themselves, and others.

It's interesting to note that in Middle Eastern society, and in Japanese society, and others that have such a powerful pride-shame paradigm, blaming someone directly is avoided unless that person is to be a complete outsider, criminal, enemy, etc. This is a feature of a system that has evolved to compensate for extreme reactions to pride-shame. You'll find the same dynamic in an American inner city schoolyard, where "dissing" someone is to be avoided unless you are prepared for the dire consequences. In effect, the dynamics of a Middle Eastern government and an American street gang are identical.

So you take a western psycho-social dynamic, extremely vociferous praise and blame; and a middle eastern psycho-social dynamic, stir them together and boom.

That bit of rationalization for blaming the world for the terrorists' actions would have a small chance of having a point if there were actual praising of their actions. However, do tell: When was the last time you saw any praising of their actions by the "rest of the world", which you're trying to blame for the American-made clusterfuck?

The US could do with a bit more diversity in its politics, European countries might benefit from a little more polarisation now and then.

Interesting you would say that, as both of those realities are formed by the mathematics of the different voting systems.

I did not, sweetie, choose and misinterpret your phrases. I happen to like you too. Actually, I concluded that you're just terribly misguided in your wording. I'm also aware that you did condemn your own country for it's clusterfuck of politics and bad actions, I didn't miss that. But it's terribly misguided of you to believe that the rest of the world hates the US just because it tries to be a role model. That is so untrue. You're sensible, inspect your own government, which is as fucked up as any other, and then get back to me. My intention is not to butt heads with you. This is merely debate. You presented your case, I did mine.;)

I didn't say that it hates the US only for trying to be a role model, my dear. It's simply that most of the world only sees the failings of America because we put ourselves out there to be seen. If America didn't try to show itself as much, most of our failings would be private internal matters and no one would really care one way or another. There's several reasons to hate America in spite of this.... Tourists for example... Bush.... Republicans. Democrats. Bush. Our failing education system. Bush. The semi-prevalent racism. The drug laws. Bush. The war on terror. The governments consistent failure to admit it's.... failure... ever. Bush.

Of course, most of those factors wouldn't be known by the vast majority of the world if America kept to it's own damn business.

Indeed. Americans would be mocked a lot less if fewer of them were so blind to the faults and limitations of their own country and its history. The "We're American so we're the best and nothing we ever do can ever be wrong" syndrome makes Americans look childish and immature in the eyes of the rest of the world.

Which is unfortunate, because a lot of Americans are very smart people. They just tend to be drowned out by other Americans who feel an irresistable impulse to proudly assert their own ignorance, stupidity and blind nationalism, thus giving their country a bad name.

What he/she/it said. Unfotunately, most of the smart ones don't speak very loudly while the dumb ones shout and scream.

*lol Since when do constitutions prevent political extremism? Ever heard of the Weimar Constitution? ;)


Not that one. further southwest.

Interesting you would say that, as both of those realities are formed by the mathematics of the different voting systems.

No, not really. The fact that the US effectively has only two political parties does derive from their ancient voting system, however the fact that most European countries do not have many extreme political parties of any flavour is more to do with the legislation surrounding the foundation and running of a party.

Not that one. further southwest.

Both fell vicitm to the same political virus, though.

However, do tell: When was the last time you saw any praising of their actions by the "rest of the world", which you're trying to blame for the American-made clusterfuck?

You did, just now, by deciding that the Sudanese guy who trained in Algeria and was funded by Saudi Arabia to sneak into Iraq through Syria and blow up a bunch of Iraqi kids is "an American made clusterfuck" By assigning blame to one side you assign praise to the other- maybe not in your system, but in the system that counts- theirs. Honor is a zero-sum equation.

That's how it works in that world. Demonize one side, you praise the one that fights against it.

That's also why you don't demonize the actual terrorists. Instinctively, you know it would praise the US. That's why the BBC says "suspected militants" while claims of American atrocities are always taken as truth.

But Iraqis DO demonize the terrorists, now. When Iraqi kids play with toy guns, the bad guy is the terrorist.

The US is a fine country in many ways. Our laws protect many basic fundamental rights, such as those of speech, the press, privacy (to an extent), due process, and so on. Citizens have the economic freedom to seek employment and spend their money (after taxes, at least) as they please.

Of course, there are flaws. There is far too much of a willingness to submit to corportate will over collective need; people have similarly flipped priorities about paying taxes and ensuring social justice. Furthermore, there is much dilution about all poor people being lazy, and economic circumstances being entirely adjustable. Religion is also too much of a large factor in public life.

Beyond that, I prefer parliamentary democracy to presidential democracy, but that's another issue entirely.

On the whole, I'd say that our basic laws and the way that our government is set up -- in other words, the Constitution -- is very good. It's just that the way that our leaders act, and the way our priorities are arranged, has many issues. Compared to many countries, however, we're superb.

Snip.

I'm not going to dignify that tripe with an answer.

I didn't say that it hates the US only for trying to be a role model, my dear. It's simply that most of the world only sees the failings of America because we put ourselves out there to be seen. If America didn't try to show itself as much, most of our failings would be private internal matters and no one would really care one way or another. There's several reasons to hate America in spite of this.... Tourists for example... Bush.... Republicans. Democrats. Bush. Our failing education system. Bush. The semi-prevalent racism. The drug laws. Bush. The war on terror. The governments consistent failure to admit it's.... failure... ever. Bush.

Of course, most of those factors wouldn't be known by the vast majority of the world if America kept to it's own damn business.

Then that's what they should do.

Love, don't surmize your problems with Bush. He is but one of the many you face. It's like us in Spain trying to blame everything on Zapatero. He's an ass, but he's not our only problem. ;) Of course, the Bush problem will soon be fixed on the US elections in November. I just hope your nation learned and doesn't end up electing McCain as the new president. The gods know that that man is bad news and spells doom for your nation.

My own country carries a war on terror with ETA. It has also been a failure. There was a cease-fire that brought hope to all. Alas, that is over now.

That last statement should be the motto of your country, at least with those who are sensible enough to take it to heart. American needs to keep to it's own damn business. (QFT)

Then that's what they should do.

Love, don't surmize your problems with Bush. He is but one of the many you face. It's like us in Spain trying to blame everything on Zapatero. He's an ass, but he's not our only problem. ;) Of course, the Bush problem will soon be fixed on the US elections in November. I just hope your nation learned and doesn't end up electing McCain as the new president. The gods know that that man is bad news and spells doom for your nation.

My own country carries a war on terror with ETA. It has also been a failure. There was a cease-fire that brought hope to all. Alas, that is over now.

That last statement should be the motto of your country, at least with those who are sensible enough to take it to heart. American needs to keep to it's own damn business. (QFT)

I don't blame bush for everything... I just like to use him as atalking point. He in a nutshell illustrates the most glaring flaws in America. If it weren't Bush I'd of used someone else... like my cousin bob.

Americans, there's some aspects I like, and some I hate.

I hate the arrogance, the complete disregard of English language. Disregard of the Histories of other nations. The way they think they are so superior. The way they think they can enforce their will upon everyone (My nation tried that, gave up after 200 years.) Ignorance of other nations laws and rights (e.g gun law) And the fact that some seem to think the USSR, the UK and Empire, and flaws in German leadership had nothing to do with Germany's defeat in WW2

I like, Practically everything else except the media, foreign policy and government.

I'm a firm believer of the rule that when Americans are over here, they are tossers, and when they are in the US, they are nice =D And they seem to be nicer in smaller numbers.

And I hate the ones that lecture me on English language and English history. I'm English ffs....

Colour has a U in it, get over it =D. The rest of the English speaking world spells like that.

On the whole they are generally Ok.

Americans, there's some aspects I like, and some I hate.

I hate the arrogance, the complete disregard of English language. Disregard of the Histories of other nations. The way they think they are so superior. The way they think they can enforce their will upon everyone (My nation tried that, gave up after 200 years.) Ignorance of other nations laws and rights (e.g gun law) And the fact that some seem to think the USSR, the UK and Empire, and flaws in German leadership had nothing to do with Germany's defeat in WW2

I like, Practically everything else except the media, foreign policy and government.

I'm a firm believer of the rule that when Americans are over here, they are tossers, and when they are in the US, they are nice =D And they seem to be nicer in smaller numbers.

And I hate the ones that lecture me on English language and English history. I'm English ffs....

Colour has a U in it, get over it =D. The rest of the English speaking world spells like that.

On the whole they are generally Ok.

You're right to a large degree, though I would point out to you that there are still many Americans who don't fit the mold you described.

You're right to a large degree, though I would point out to you that there are still many Americans who don't fit the mold you described.

Mould*

See it's the U thing again^^ =D

I was generalising, I mean it's hard not too, I'm pretty sure people generalise the English anyway.

I don't blame bush for everything... I just like to use him as atalking point. He in a nutshell illustrates the most glaring flaws in America. If it weren't Bush I'd of used someone else... like my cousin bob.

But your post mentioned Bush several times. It's not only Bush, although I understand that you were using him to illustrate what's flawed in the US. There's no need to use anyone in particular to explain what's wrong with a country. Situations are more fair.

Once again, not all Americans are ignorant. But as some people have already stated, those who aren't ignorant do not tend to be as vocal as the ignorant ones.;)

hmmmm its a difficult one to call this one to be honest. I severely dislike Bush and his policies and the fervent nationalism of Americans bugs me to no end. I can't stand Americans in groups (like someone above said) but every American I have met (on their own or in small groups) has been intelligent, funny, polite and respectful almost to the point of parody. I guess it just depends on the situation as well.


Though what always really annoys me about America is their mangling of the English language. I am a big watcher of reality Cop shows (shame on me, I know) and the language the cops use actually has me rooting for the bad guys most of the time. I have never heard anyone in a position of authority speak quite so poorly before in my whole life. I don't think I would like to be 'protected and served' by someone who can't string a sentence together properly. [/rant]

I guess what I am trying to say (I have a big problem with rambling) is that, like in every country in the world (and some that are not), American has it's good points and it's bad points but unfortunately for the normal American, the bad points are many times more noticeable than the good points.

Spain is a democratic socialist nation, not a Monarchy. Ta-ta!:rolleyes:
The point is, that if were not for the American example, Spain would never have considered becoming a democratic nation.

I don't care either way your really not that important

*watches USian heads explode*



I wouldn't say the media is that bad I mean it has the odd fairly decent show much better than daytime ITV

It's OK UKian, you can say whatever you please.

That's how it works in that world. Demonize one side, you praise the one that fights against it.
I'm not so sure about that. In a culture based in honour, even enemies adhere to an unspoken code in relating to each other. Dishonouring one's enemy is often seen as dishonouring those who would fight them as equals, and you may find that demonising one side will lead both to turn on you briefly before continuing their own struggle.

But your post mentioned Bush several times. It's not only Bush, although I understand that you were using him to illustrate what's flawed in the US. There's no need to use anyone in particular to explain what's wrong with a country. Situations are more fair.

Once again, not all Americans are ignorant. But as some people have already stated, those who aren't ignorant do not tend to be as vocal as the ignorant ones.;)

The problem is the world see's us through our actors and script writers (if you know what I mean). Those folks are not the best examples of American intelligence, so people see our movies, and go "oooh America and Americans are like that, lets laugh at how stupid they are".

The point is, that if were not for the American example, Spain would never have considered becoming a democratic nation.

Spain became democratic not so long ago.

I believe the monarchy was expelled by General Franco and his fascist style dictatorship, and remained so until his death.

I doubt Spain turning democratic had anything to do with the US I'm afraid. It's more likely, if they were influenced by anyone, it would of been the West German nation. As at the time it was self supporting politically, as the British, French and Americans merged the zones to form it.

I'm not too hot on Spanish politics. So I could be wrong here.

Apathetically antipathetic. The aspects of the USA I dislike outnumber those I like, but frankly, anything I'd post either has, or will, be posted anyway.

It's OK UKian, you can say whatever you please.

yes, because everyone cares about what the British guy with the tea thinks because when we don't get attention we go slightly mad and subjugate whole continents

The problem is the world see's us through our actors and script writers (if you know what I mean). Those folks are not the best examples of American intelligence, so people see our movies, and go "oooh America and Americans are like that, lets laugh at how stupid they are".

we also have your tourists :)

The problem is the world see's us through our actors and script writers (if you know what I mean). Those folks are not the best examples of American intelligence, so people see our movies, and go "oooh America and Americans are like that, lets laugh at how stupid they are".
I disagree. American actors are generally quite well liked; they have a level of charm and pseudo-sophistication that the press here are rather fond of. It's unflattering documentaries that are to blame, I think.

Also, religion. American Christianity in their whole literalism paints the country in a very poor light, even among other Christians, who tend to see that kind of understanding as simplistic and unenlightened.

I doubt Spain turning democratic had anything to do with the US I'm afraid.
The United States CREATED that whole model of how to run a nation. Before the US wrote a constitution, no nation anywhere in the world had a written constitution, or ever had had one. Before George Washington became "President", no head of state had ever used that title, nor did any nation have the concept that someone could become head of state for a limited term and then step down to become an ordinary citizen.

I disagree. American actors are generally quite well liked; they have a level of charm and pseudo-sophistication that the press here are rather fond of. It's unflattering documentaries that are to blame, I think.

Also, religion. American Christianity in their whole literalism paints the country in a very poor light, even among other Christians, who tend to see that kind of understanding as simplistic and unenlightened.

The documentaries do little to address the situation, agreed. However, I think religion is indeed the main problem. However sophisticated or refined one's tastes, all one can find in the UK are documentaries, tracts and general polemic bemoaning the simplistic Bible nuts who, we are told, run the country.

The United States CREATED that whole model of how to run a nation. Before the US wrote a constitution, no nation anywhere in the world had a written constitution, or ever had had one. Before George Washington became "President", no head of state had ever used that title, nor did any nation have the concept that someone could become head of state for a limited term and then step down to become an ordinary citizen.

Rome did. Greece certainly did. I'm fairly sure Switzerland did as well. American democracy is, simply put, the product of eighteenth century enlightment eulogising over Athens.

The United States CREATED that whole model of how to run a nation. Before the US wrote a constitution, no nation anywhere in the world had a written constitution, or ever had had one. Before George Washington became "President", no head of state had ever used that title, nor did any nation have the concept that someone could become head of state for a limited term and then step down to become an ordinary citizen.

The Magna Carta

Outlining the basic laws of the United Kingdom AND forms some basis of the US constitution. There were American presidents before Washington, put into place by the occupiers (British)

George Washington was the 1st President of the United States of America. Not the first person to be granted the person of President in America.

As for your limited term thingy.

Oliver Cromwell overthrew the English King in the mid 1600's and introduced a government style similar to this. He corrupted it.... but the ideas the same.

The Magna Carta

Outlining the basic laws of the United Kingdom AND forms some basis of the US constitution. There were American presidents before Washington, put into place by the occupiers (British)

George Washington was the 1st President of the United States of America. Not the first person to be granted the person of President in America.

As for your limited term thingy.

Oliver Cromwell overthrew the English King in the mid 1600's and introduced a government style similar to this. He corrupted it.... but the ideas the same.


I disagree concerning Cromwell. The American political model premises itself upon a limited term, with specific periods given, whereas the model developed by Cromwell was, in essence, and from its beginnings, a monocracy veiled in the mantle of popular rule. Cromwell was buried in royal regalia, though he denied the crown when alive.

The point is, that if were not for the American example, Spain would never have considered becoming a democratic nation.

Spain becoming a democratic socialist country has absolutely nothing to do with the US being one, get your facts straight. Monarchies outgrow their usefulness. Besides, in this age and day having a monarchy as a form of government roots your nation in archaic ways. Because of this reason, Spain became a socialist country.

As for the crafting of a constitution, Americans are very flawed if they think they were the first to have one. Rome had a constitution as did or Greece. The US, much to it's dismay, isn't a pioneer in that.:rolleyes:

But your post mentioned Bush several times. It's not only Bush, although I understand that you were using him to illustrate what's flawed in the US. There's no need to use anyone in particular to explain what's wrong with a country. Situations are more fair.

Once again, not all Americans are ignorant. But as some people have already stated, those who aren't ignorant do not tend to be as vocal as the ignorant ones.;)

But that wouldn't have been nearly as fun as insulting Bush... Whenever the opportunity presents itself one must always "punt the idiot"

This poll sucks, so I didnt vote.

You refuse to diferentiate between the government and the people in your poll. Secondly, this topic is just another pissing contest that will result in nothing but nationalism bleeding from every pore in this thread.

They hate us until they move here.

Or until they need us economically or militarially.

But that wouldn't have been nearly as fun as insulting Bush... Whenever the opportunity presents itself one must always "punt the idiot"

LOL! Yeah, but one must try to search for newer things to make fun of, although Bush is too much of an idiot to resist.:p

This poll sucks, so I didnt vote.

You refuse to diferentiate between the government and the people in your poll. Secondly, this topic is just another pissing contest that will result in nothing but nationalism bleeding from every pore in this thread.

Actually. As the poll addresses the USA which isn't it's people but the policies of it's government and not AMERICANS then it does. So you fail.


LOL! Yeah, but one must try to search for newer things to make fun of, although Bush is too much of an idiot to resist.:p

That's why I spice up Bush Bash with Christian Castration and of course Masturbation. Can't forget that. Most important meal of the day and all that. And of course TV. XD

Nanatsu for QUEEN of SOMETHING OR OTHER. ~Raises flag.~

you say it's about history, government, policies, etc and not the people...but then go on to talk about americans being arrogant, ignorant, stupid, or what have you. that sounds like you dislike the people too...

Actually. As the poll addresses the USA which isn't it's people but the policies of it's government and not AMERICANS then it does. So you fail.


Ummm....no it doesnt. If you hate the US that could mean you hate either its people, its government, or both. So actually you fail.

Ummm....no it doesnt. If you hate the US that could mean you hate either its people, its government, or both. So actually you fail.

You could hate it's people. But that wasn't the question asked. The question asked was if you dislike the United States of America. The entity that is the United States of America. Which is it's government and policies. But stating at the onset of the thread that the people were excluded and we are referring to AMERICA and it's aspect and not AMERICANS and theirs then you fail for reading comprehension and basic logical deductions.


On a side note. Funny thing. If you look at the poll results.. the totallity of the combined disliked/hate faction against the like/love faction actually fall even. Funny story

You could hate it's people. But that wasn't the question asked. The question asked was if you dislike the United States of America. The entity that is the United States of America. Which is it's government and policies. But stating at the onset of the thread that the people were excluded and we are referring to AMERICA and it's aspect and not AMERICANS and theirs then you fail for reading comprehension and basic logical deductions.



Im gonna have to take this question up with moderation. Why is flaming banned but for some reason calling someone's reading abilities into question not flaming? I mean, I could say your a jackass and a whole host of other things. But that would be flaming. But implying that Im not bright enough to read somehow isnt.


Funny thing that is.

The Magna Carta

Outlining the basic laws of the United Kingdom AND forms some basis of the US constitution.
It delineated some procedural protections for criminal trials. It did not outline the basic laws of the UK. It is nothing like a constitution.
There were American presidents before Washington, put into place by the occupiers (British)
WTF are you talking about??? The term "president" was used by the rebels for the chairman of the Continental Congress. The word had never had any other meaning than "chairman; presiding officer" before the US constitution made it the name of the head of state. It had never been used in any sense under the British regime (the colonies had "governors", appointed by the king).

As for your limited term thingy.

Oliver Cromwell overthrew the English King in the mid 1600's and ...
... ruled for the rest of his life. The notion that an ex-head-of-state could step down, rather than being killed/imprisoned/banished, and become a normal citizen again was alien to every government on earth at the time.

As for the crafting of a constitution, Americans are very flawed if they think they were the first to have one. Rome had a constitution as did or Greece.
You are utterly mistaken.
Rome and Greece did have officials serving as the head of state for limited terms, and America was consciously looking back to this past in re-introducing the concept. The notion of writing down the rules in a single document was completely innovative, however.

Im gonna have to take this question up with moderation. Why is flaming banned but for some reason calling someone's reading abilities into question not flaming? I mean, I could say your a jackass and a whole host of other things. But that would be flaming. But implying that Im not bright enough to read somehow isnt.


Funny thing that is.

I didn't imply that at all. I said you failed at reading comprehension in the context of this thread. This is an obsevational deduction. This could be because you didn't read the first post in this thread and didn't see the OP that stated that the poll and thread were in regard to the government, policies, medias and other such factors of the nation AND NOT the people. Or because you misinterpreted what was said in the poll. I'm not sure which, nor did I indicate which it was simply that there was a failure. It's not an insult, there are misunderstandings all the time.

Im gonna have to take this question up with moderation. Why is flaming banned but for some reason calling someone's reading abilities into question not flaming?
Implicitly questioning your ability to read, through the pointing out of errors made in reading, is a legitimate discourse technique. If you've made a mistake, it is entirely within reason to notify you of that fact.

You'll note that they are currently meeting in New York, USA, to negotiate an end to this thing you claim is basically over.
Uhu....

Here, allow me to explain -

The seperatists haven't had any international support since the end of the Cold War. Since then, they've run out of money and they've been steadily losing arms, men and momentum. Pretty much over by the middle of the 1990s, this meeting is a pointless formality.

You could hate it's people. But that wasn't the question asked. The question asked was if you dislike the United States of America. The entity that is the United States of America. Which is it's government and policies. But stating at the onset of the thread that the people were excluded and we are referring to AMERICA and it's aspect and not AMERICANS and theirs then you fail for reading comprehension and basic logical deductions.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. The "entity that is the United States of America" is indeed comprised of it's government and policies, but that also has to include its citizens as well. The citizens elect the government to create those policies. America wouldn't be America without Americans. I don't really see how it can be viewed otherwise.

Also, the thread topic is loaded question, another strike against it.

The problem is the world see's us through our actors and script writers (if you know what I mean). Those folks are not the best examples of American intelligence, so people see our movies, and go "oooh America and Americans are like that, lets laugh at how stupid they are".

Movies (and television to a lesser, if growing, extent) are probably the best PR tools America has.

Hi,

I'm from the USA and I like it here, but I like everything and haven't been anywhere else.

That's why I spice up Bush Bash with Christian Castration and of course Masturbation. Can't forget that. Most important meal of the day and all that. And of course TV. XD

Nanatsu for QUEEN of SOMETHING OR OTHER. ~Raises flag.~

Duly noted and flag raised as well.;)

You are utterly mistaken.
Rome and Greece did have officials serving as the head of state for limited terms, and America was consciously looking back to this past in re-introducing the concept. The notion of writing down the rules in a single document was completely innovative, however.

I never spoke of writing, I spoke of crafting. Both Rome and Greece had crafted constitutions. So no, I'm not wrong in my statement.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. The "entity that is the United States of America" is indeed comprised of it's government and policies, but that also has to include its citizens as well. The citizens elect the government to create those policies. America wouldn't be America without Americans. I don't really see how it can be viewed otherwise.

Also, the thread topic is loaded question, another strike against it.

While it is true that the people do participate in the election of the government, they have very little say in the policies and practices of the government after the fact of the election short of impeaching the president and even that isn't a guarantee of changing anything. The people themselves are a seperate entity from the Nation. And while the Nation and it's People can be used in the same context they should not be readily made so.

As far as it goes... when someone uses the term "USA/US/or United States of America' I assume they are referring to the nation and the government, when they use "Americans" it means the people. But when they use the term of "America" it refers to the group of Nation and People. Of course that's my semantics and should not be held to by all unless they choose to. But the first post states they mean the Nation and not the People.

Now, I'm not trying to be controversial, but it seems to me that most people I've encountered who aren't from the USA don't particularly like the USA.

So, do you like or dislike the USA*?

*and by this I mean its history/laws/leaders/government/media and so forth, not its citizens. I'm not talking about discriminating on basis of nationality here.
I'm not sure why anyone in the United States should care a damn about what anyone else in the rest of the world thinks. In fact, I am sure that there is no reason to try and make ourselves into something that would win in a world-wide popularity contest. We are what we are and y'all aint! Get over it.

The notion that an ex-head-of-state could step down, rather than being killed/imprisoned/banished, and become a normal citizen again was alien to every government on earth at the time.

Not historically, though. It existed in ancient Greece and Rome.

And at the time still, in smaller communities, in Melanesia, leaders ceased to be leaders when people didn't want to follow them any more, when they failed to live up to expectations, and they just became ordinary members of the community once more.


The notion of writing down the rules in a single document was completely innovative, however.

*points to San Marino*

The United States CREATED that whole model of how to run a nation. Before the US wrote a constitution, no nation anywhere in the world had a written constitution, or ever had had one.

Wrong. San Marino.


Before George Washington became "President", no head of state had ever used that title

Correct.

Who cares, anyway? Why this need to feel that your country is the first or the best at something, as though somehow you had anything to do with it? It's the same over here to a lesser extent, with politicians telling us that France invented human rights, is the world's greatest model / shining beacon of human rights, that our example inspired the rest of the world, and so on...

I'm not sure why anyone in the United States should care a damn about what anyone else in the rest of the world thinks. In fact, I am sure that there is no reason to try and make ourselves into something that would win in a world-wide popularity contest. We are what we are and y'all aint! Get over it.This childish attitude, on the other hand, I don't like at all.

Hi,

I'm from the USA and I like it here, but I like everything and haven't been anywhere else.
Hullo!

Enjoy the forums.

Yeah, the USA is a great place to live, but so is Western Europe and most of southern Asia.

This poll sucks, so I didnt vote.

You refuse to diferentiate between the government and the people in your poll. Secondly, this topic is just another pissing contest that will result in nothing but nationalism bleeding from every pore in this thread.

Read the OP. It clearly states that he/she meant the government/policies/whatever instead of the people.

Not historically, though. It existed in ancient Greece and Rome.

And at the time still, in smaller communities, in Melanesia, leaders ceased to be leaders when people didn't want to follow them any more, when they failed to live up to expectations, and they just became ordinary members of the community once more.



*points to San Marino*



Wrong. San Marino.



Correct.

Who cares, anyway? Why this need to feel that your country is the first or the best at something, as though somehow you had anything to do with it? It's the same over here to a lesser extent, with politicians telling us that France invented human rights, is the world's greatest model / shining beacon of human rights, that our example inspired the rest of the world, and so on...

I'm sorry to say Ariddia, that we're wasting our time trying to make this particular poster understand that, contrary to his US-centricsm and desire to believe his country is the best and first at everything, he can't deal with the fact that he's sadly mistaken in that assumption.

I'm not sure why anyone in the United States should care a damn about what anyone else in the rest of the world thinks. In fact, I am sure that there is no reason to try and make ourselves into something that would win in a world-wide popularity contest. We are what we are and y'all aint! Get over it.

Yeah, I hate it when people talk about doing things the same way as Europe or Japan, because this isn't Europe or Japan, its America, and we've always been kind of spunky and original.

EDIT: I would like to take this opportunity to hit on Myrmidonisia again. We seem to have a lot in common and I think we might hit it off. What da ya say baby?

I hate most of the USA

The ones who have their head up their asses and preach that theirs is the best country in the world, and how democracy is the best, they can all go chain lead weights to their necks and take a swim in deep water

the rest [those that actually have humilty] are okay, i have met some good americans, and one of my long-term friends is from usa

But i still say restart the cold war and have Russia invade america, which wont hurt becuase my friend in the Usa is part polish:D

American Communism FTW;)

American Communism FTW;)
Communism can kiss my conservative arse.

Communism can kiss my conservative arse.

Ah, that explains it so well.:rolleyes:

It delineated some procedural protections for criminal trials. It did not outline the basic laws of the UK. It is nothing like a constitution.

WTF are you talking about??? The term "president" was used by the rebels for the chairman of the Continental Congress. The word had never had any other meaning than "chairman; presiding officer" before the US constitution made it the name of the head of state. It had never been used in any sense under the British regime (the colonies had "governors", appointed by the king).

... ruled for the rest of his life. The notion that an ex-head-of-state could step down, rather than being killed/imprisoned/banished, and become a normal citizen again was alien to every government on earth at the time.

You are utterly mistaken.
Rome and Greece did have officials serving as the head of state for limited terms, and America was consciously looking back to this past in re-introducing the concept. The notion of writing down the rules in a single document was completely innovative, however.

Of course if you look it like that, the USA will be the first to do all you enumerated. But all you enumerated has been done before, from Hamurabbi's Code for laws to limited terms to naming your head of state something new.

The USA didn't invent anything. They looked at what worked around the globe and in history and tried to build something positive and sustainable. And might I add they didn't get it right the first time hence the amendments (one of which introduce term limits if I'm not mistaken).

Communism can kiss my conservative arse.

Thought you tended to vote Labour...

Thought you tended to vote Labour...
I don't vote, for starters because I've only just been able to, and secondly because every single party is just utterly flawed.

New Labour is a complete clusterfuck
The Conservatives have a xenophobic, greedy power base
The Lib Dems are a joke.

And everyone else is noch crappier, esp the BNP.

I never spoke of writing, I spoke of crafting. Both Rome and Greece had crafted constitutions. So no, I'm not wrong in my statement.
What does your statement even MEAN??? It might be that we would actually agree, except that I do not even know what you are trying to say.

*points to San Marino*
City-states with republican forms of government, limited-term officials, single-document written charters, etc. were common, but it was a typical assumption among political theorists that extending this to a *national* scale was impossible (the experience of Rome indicating that a city-state growing into a larger territory would cause rapid decay of the republican institutions). The Dutch Republic was the first counterexample (Switzerland was really just a loose alliance of city-states for much of its early history), but the rules were made up as they went along rather than being embodied in a firm document, and the "stadholders" tended to hold on to power for life, among other dishearteningly destabilizing features.
Why this need to feel that your country is the first or the best at something, as though somehow you had anything to do with it? It's the same over here to a lesser extent, with politicians telling us that France invented human rights, is the world's greatest model / shining beacon of human rights, that our example inspired the rest of the world, and so on...
I find that very odd, since France in 1789-93 was explicit and conscious about the fact that they were following America's example (sending the keys to the Bastille to Washington, lionizing Ben Franklin, asking Tom Paine to draft the Declaration of Human Rights, borrowing such terms as "President" and "Constitution", etc.). We WERE the first, that's all. I am not saying that if America had not broken the ice, that no other nation would have, but it is impossible to know the "what ifs".

While it is true that the people do participate in the election of the government, they have very little say in the policies and practices of the government after the fact of the election short of impeaching the president and even that isn't a guarantee of changing anything. The people themselves are a seperate entity from the Nation. And while the Nation and it's People can be used in the same context they should not be readily made so.

As far as it goes... when someone uses the term "USA/US/or United States of America' I assume they are referring to the nation and the government, when they use "Americans" it means the people. But when they use the term of "America" it refers to the group of Nation and People. Of course that's my semantics and should not be held to by all unless they choose to. But the first post states they mean the Nation and not the People.


Fair enough, all good points and theres not much there to dispute. However, as an American I'd like to think that average citizens have some say in public policy, but I'm not an idiot. This isn't the 60's, people just don't know how to protest like they used to.

The point is, that if were not for the American example, Spain would never have considered becoming a democratic nation.

Huh??? Why would you think that? :confused:

Thank you for bringing all the undecideds over to our side.:rolleyes:

Don't worry he's just kidding. I hope.

The United States CREATED that whole model of how to run a nation. Before the US wrote a constitution, no nation anywhere in the world had a written constitution, or ever had had one. Before George Washington became "President", no head of state had ever used that title, nor did any nation have the concept that someone could become head of state for a limited term and then step down to become an ordinary citizen.

Oh, dear.

No. Wrong. Simply wrong.

The earliest written constitution still governing a sovereign nation today may be that of San Marino Linky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution#History_and_development)

And democracy, with leaders being elected for a limited term and then stepping down, dates back to Antiquity.

But thank you for playing and demonstrating so wonderfully what it is exactly that makes USAmericans so insufferable at times. Ignorance mixed with arrogance... not everybody can stomach that easily.

I don't vote, for starters because I've only just been able to, and secondly because every single party is just utterly flawed.

New Labour is a complete clusterfuck
The Conservatives have a xenophobic, greedy power base
The Lib Dems are a joke.

And everyone else is noch crappier, esp the BNP.

Even though we are of different political leanings, I must say, that is as good an appraisal of British politics as you can get. Though you forgot to mention the Tory arrogant self-importance.

We WERE the first, that's all. I am not saying that if America had not broken the ice, that no other nation would have, but it is impossible to know the "what ifs".

Erm, constitutions have been around since Athenian times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solonian_Constitution


So, no. You weren't first.

I disagree with much of the current president's policies but I like my country's legal and political framework.

Even though we are of different political leanings, I must say, that is as good an appraisal of British politics as you can get. Though you forgot to mention the Tory arrogant self-importance.

Yep. It's a wonderful feeling really. One can enter a room, and for no reason more convictive than one's political beliefs and education, assume total superiority and that what one has to say os of the utmost importance. :)

Incidentally, hooray for Boris!

Yep. It's a wonderful feeling really. One can enter a room, and for no reason more convictive than one's political beliefs and education, assume total superiority and that what one has to say os of the utmost importance. :)

Incidentally, hooray for Boris!

The reason I like Boris, is the same reason I like the Lib-Dems. Comedy value. But Ken would have been a better mayor. He just had to be an idiot and align himself with Labour again:headbang:

Erm, constitutions have been around since Athenian times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solonian_Constitution


So, no. You weren't first.
I thought the difference between a city-state and a nation was clear. If I was not clear about that to start with, I would have hoped that explicitly drawing the distinction would have made it clear. It was believed, prior to the American experiment, that scaling up the forms used for city-states to the national scale was downright impossible. If America had not managed it, would any of the European nations have done it? "What-ifs" are impossible to know, but France only attempted a national-scale republic because they had America's example in front of them.

I thought the difference between a city-state and a nation was clear. If I was not clear about that to start with, I would have hoped that explicitly drawing the distinction would have made it clear. It was believed, prior to the American experiment, that scaling up the forms used for city-states to the national scale was downright impossible. If America had not managed it, would any of the European nations have done it? "What-ifs" are impossible to know, but France only attempted a national-scale republic because they had America's example in front of them.

Just because nobody happened to need it before :D

The British still don't.

I thought the difference between a city-state and a nation was clear.

STOP. Just stop.

You were wrong. Man up, swallow your pride and accept it.

The reason I like Boris, is the same reason I like the Lib-Dems. Comedy value. But Ken would have been a better mayor. He just had to be an idiot and align himself with Labour again:headbang:

The job's little more than figurehead anyway, hence rendering it a clash of personalities. If this is so, I'd take Boris over Ken.

The job's little more than figurehead anyway, hence rendering it a clash of personalities. If this is so, I'd take Boris over Ken.

You don't have to have excessive responsibilities but you can throw some political capital around to get your own way. Ken made use of that quite a lot. I'd really rather Boris didn't.

Oh, dear.

No. Wrong. Simply wrong.

Linky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution#History_and_development)

And democracy, with leaders being elected for a limited term and then stepping down, dates back to Antiquity.

But thank you for playing and demonstrating so wonderfully what it is exactly that makes USAmericans so insufferable at times. Ignorance mixed with arrogance... not everybody can stomach that easily.
Not really...I cannot think of a single country that doesn't have its own national myths (and that includes San Marino).

STOP. Just stop.

You were wrong. Man up, swallow your pride and accept it.

Too big to swallow :)

I thought the difference between a city-state and a nation was clear. If I was not clear about that to start with, I would have hoped that explicitly drawing the distinction would have made it clear. It was believed, prior to the American experiment, that scaling up the forms used for city-states to the national scale was downright impossible. If America had not managed it, would any of the European nations have done it? "What-ifs" are impossible to know, but France only attempted a national-scale republic because they had America's example in front of them.

Oh dear... trust me, France did not revolt it because they had an example in the USA. There have been revolts and republics on and off for centuries before in absolutely every European country. None of them lasted, for various political and social reasons. The first French Republic didn't last, either. It took a lot of development both in the military, economy, communication and society until democracies were able to establish themselves in Europe. The US was a step on the way, it was neither the first, nor the last, nor the most influential.

Hate the idiotic leaders. Love the constitution. Like the people (In the smaller cities).

Not really...I cannot think of a single country that doesn't have its own national myths (and that includes San Marino).

True, but many of them are aware that they are myths. Very few assume that they single-handedly changed the world forever for the better....

True, but many of them are aware that they are myths. Very few assume that they single-handedly changed the world forever for the better....

Though Americans weren't the first to invent the "manifest destiny" bollocks either:D

everyone who are not US citizens and dislikes the USA are terrorist and belongs in gitmo. The US citizens are protected by the first Amendment.

Wow...just...wow...

What about those people like me that are US citizens and hate the US? What happens to us? :(

I mean...what the hell does the 1st amendment have to do with hate? Nothing...

My prime dislike of America(ns) comes from Xbox Live, because I'm 'British' - I'm English born and bred, guanos. Anyway, it was hella amusing to listen to some guy so far up his own posterior going on about how 'we kicked your ass in the Revolutionary War! And we always win your wars for you!' etc. But yeah, otherwise, being told to go drink tea, eat scones/biscuits/cake etc, almost every time I go on CoD4, gets a tad old. And usually warrants the flood of fat jokes in response. Although, I must confess, I've never felt a stronger urge to get to scratch with my history... if just to beat the fools at their own tirade.

Also, the current US government. Good grief, 'nuff said by everyone before me.

True, but many of them are aware that they are myths. Very few assume that they single-handedly changed the world forever for the better....
I'm not sure that's a myth, though. The first part, "changed the world forever" is true, albeit not special about the US. Plenty of countries have changed the world, in their own way. The second part "for the better" is the result of patriotism, which may be spurred by myths.

A myth would be something like "America doesn't need the rest of the world, but the rest of the world needs America," which I believe is called the Lone Ranger Myth. Or, "George Washington held prayer services at Valley Forge." Simply believing the US is really super is an opinion. A naive one, but an opinion all the same.

Though Americans weren't the first to invent the "manifest destiny" bollocks either:D

Right. Americans were just the first to actually have a real manifest destiny. :)

My prime dislike of America(ns) comes from Xbox Live, because I'm 'British' - I'm English born and bred, guanos. Anyway, it was hella amusing to listen to some guy so far up his own posterior going on about how 'we kicked your ass in the Revolutionary War! And we always win your wars for you!' etc. But yeah, otherwise, being told to go drink tea, eat scones/biscuits/cake etc, almost every time I go on CoD4, gets a tad old. And usually warrants the flood of fat jokes in response. Although, I must confess, I've never felt a stronger urge to get to scratch with my history... if just to beat the fools at their own tirade.



Probably because most of the poeple actually on Xbox Live are the types who sit around all day and never get the chance to exit their stuffy little abodes and realize that 3rd grade history and video games are not the only things that exist in the world.

Also, consider yourself lucky. Some of the REALLY retarded Americans, most of them probably can't afford Xbox Live and therefore you don't have to listen to them. :D

I'm not sure that's a myth, though. The first part, "changed the world forever" is true, albeit not special about the US. Plenty of countries have changed the world, in their own way. The second part "for the better" is the result of patriotism, which may be spurred by myths.

A myth would be something like "America doesn't need the rest of the world, but the rest of the world needs America," which I believe is called the Lone Ranger Myth. Or, "George Washington held prayer services at Valley Forge." Simply believing the US is really super is an opinion. A naive one, but an opinion all the same.

Sure it's opinion. But presenting an uninformed opinion in a way that makes it clear you expect everybody else to be eternally grateful to you for something you - evidently - never did... that's just a very bad combination of ignorance and arrogance, and it won't serve to make you a lot of friends anywhere.

I would prefer to live in Canada to tell the truth.

So far, my perception of this thread:

1.- People ask why "americans" are disliked abroad.

2.- People from abroad express their views, and explain to them why they believe americans are despised, or why they dislike the United States or "americans" in general.

3.- Americans answer stating that they are great exactly for the reasons that others stated they are despised.

Really, people, I try to not develop a bias, but...Help me to help myself.

*cut*But yeah, otherwise, being told to go drink tea, eat scones/biscuits/cake etc, almost every time I go on CoD4, gets a tad old. *cut*

I hate people like that.

Anyway thats when you tell them to "Go eat a cheeseburger" :D

Sure it's opinion. But presenting an uninformed opinion in a way that makes it clear you expect everybody else to be eternally grateful to you for something you - evidently - never did... that's just a very bad combination of ignorance and arrogance, and it won't serve to make you a lot of friends anywhere.

Okay, that I believe. It is a bad combination. Incidentally, what event are you talking about? The Constitution?

People dislike the U.S.A because they are jealous. They too want to live in the GREATEST COUNTY IN THE WORLD TM and are trying to come to terms with their crippling envy.

Okay, that I believe. It is a bad combination. Incidentally, what event are you talking about? The Constitution?

The constitution, democracy and presidency. He more or less claimed that the rest of the world had systems like that for the one and only reason that the US had it "first".

I used to virulently hate everything USian. Now, after too many years on NSG, I've discovered that I actually like many USians. Still hate the gov't, like the people, don't mind the parts of the country I've seen.

People dislike the U.S.A because they are jealous. They too want to live in the GREATEST COUNTY IN THE WORLD TM and are trying to come to terms with their crippling envy.

I wouldn't live there if you paid me $1000 a month to do nothing.

Right. Americans were just the first to actually have a real manifest destiny. :)

Careful with the dry jokes... I'll laugh myself to death :)))

So far, my perception of this thread:

1.- People ask why "americans" are disliked abroad.

2.- People from abroad express their views, and explain to them why they believe americans are despised, or why they dislike the United States or "americans" in general.

3.- Americans answer stating that they are great exactly for the reasons that others stated they are despised.

Really, people, I try to not develop a bias, but...Help me to help myself.

Isn't that the truth.

People dislike the U.S.A because they are jealous. They too want to live in the GREATEST COUNTY IN THE WORLD TM and are trying to come to terms with their crippling envy.

Thats a good example of the above.

everyone who are not US citizens and dislikes the USA are terrorist and belongs in gitmo. The US citizens are protected by the first Amendment.

:rolleyes:

I dislike the American government immensely.

And I LIVE there.

(In before "Go to Canada traitor")

Most people I've encountered over here tend to like certain aspects of America and dislike other aspects. That's pretty normal I'd say since no country does anything perfectly all the time.

Not even Sweden. ;)


I like your attitude on things. I am American. I realize that we have problems, but we ahve more good htings going for us.

I dislike the American government immensely.

And I LIVE there.

(In before "Go to Canada traitor")

The government itself is very good. It is the politicians that ruin everything

I do not understand how you could dislike the U.S.A.
Dislike? help me out here

I am from the USA but i have traveled out of country a good bit and i think there are definetely things that other countries have that we should try to be more like them in, but in general its an alright place EXCEPT FOR THE FLIPIN HIGH GAS PRICES!!!! :headbang:

I am from the USA but i have traveled out of country a good bit and i think there are definetely things that other countries have that we should try to be more like them in, but in general its an alright place EXCEPT FOR THE FLIPIN HIGH GAS PRICES!!!! :headbang:

Yeah no kidding

I wouldn't live there if you paid me $1000 a month to do nothing.

Where do you live now?

oh and i agree about the goverment, it is good it is just all the freakin politicians that ruin evreything. I think we need more people who are pretty much civilians with knowledge about the political system to represent us.

oh and i agree about the goverment, it is good it is just all the freakin politicians that ruin evreything. I think we need more people who are pretty much civilians with knowledge about the political system to represent us.

But you've got a political system that makes it extremely difficult, if not downright impossible, for such people to come into any form of higher office...

The government itself is very good. It is the politicians that ruin everything I hate more about the country then. I hate the idiotic populace who votes them in because they think American Idol and what the latest hair design of a stupid movie star is more important.

The world is full of stupid people, it's just that it seems that some Americans actively seek to become stupid.

I am from the USA but i have traveled out of country a good bit and i think there are definetely things that other countries have that we should try to be more like them in, but in general its an alright place EXCEPT FOR THE FLIPIN HIGH GAS PRICES!!!! :headbang:

You think your gas prices are high?

1 litre of petrol = £1.19 average

Roughly £6 ($12) gallon.

Yea ok in the UK we are generally paid better but still..... £6... a gallon...

wasn't long ago when it was half that....

STOP. Just stop.

You were wrong. Man up, swallow your pride and accept it.
I'm wrong to think that a city-state and a nation are very different things???? Jesus Christ, I would have thought the difference was naked-eye obvious.

Oh dear... trust me, France did not revolt it because they had an example in the USA.
No, they ATTEMPTED A NATIONAL-SCALE REPUBLIC because they had an example in America. There had been many revolts in France before, none of them attempting to set up a republic.

There have been revolts and republics on and off for centuries before in absolutely every European country.
REVOLTS, yes. REPUBLICS, no. Revolts replaced one monarch with another, or installed military-dictators-for-life like Cromwell. France likewise fell into the dictator-for-life model after failing to sustain a republic. Republics had been considered impossible to sustain on larger scales than a city, until the Dutch created theirs, which by the 18th century was falling apart, the stadholder increasing assuming the role of a monarch while his opponents destabilized the country, adding to the argument that it just could not be done. America was the breakthrough: as I have said, there is no way to know the "what ifs" of whether some other country would have managed it if America had not, but the simple fact of the matter is that republican-style governments became the modern model following the American Revolution. The common use of such words as "President" (every tinhorn dictator has to call himself a "President" nowadays!) and "Constitution" ("charter" used to be the standard term for analogous documents on a city scale) is reflective of America's role in making the republican form of government the standard.

So, do you like or dislike the USA*?

*and by this I mean its history/laws/leaders/government/media and so forth, not its citizens. I'm not talking about discriminating on basis of nationality here.

Well, most of the US political system, foreign policies, government, leaders, legal system and media isn't quite what I wish for my country, so I'd say that I dislike the USA.

REVOLTS, yes. REPUBLICS, no.

Excuse me?

Leaving the obvious examples of ancient city-wide republics (Athenai) and multi-continent-wide republics (Roma)...

what about:
1.La Serenissima Repubblica di San Marco (capital: Venice), with a territory that, at its maximum extent, comprised the current italian region of Veneto, 2/3 of Lombardy, a good half of Emilia-Romagna, Friuli-Venezia Giulia, the current province of Trento, Istria (now part of Croatia and Slovenia), Dalmatia (now part of Croatia) and some islands of the Aegean Sea: that is, a lot more vaste than the Netherlands and Belgium put together. A lot of time BEFORE the English revolution.

2.La Superba Repubblica di San Giorgio (capital: Genoa), with a territory that at its maximum extent included the whole current italian region of Liguria, part of Tuscany, plus Corse.

Do yourself a favour, learn history.

I'm wrong to think that a city-state and a nation are very different things???? Jesus Christ, I would have thought the difference was naked-eye obvious.

They're not fundamentally different, and one can become the other quite easily, actually.


No, they ATTEMPTED A NATIONAL-SCALE REPUBLIC because they had an example in America. There had been many revolts in France before, none of them attempting to set up a republic.

They had examples in San Marino, Rome, Greece, the Dutch Republic, Oliver Cromwell, the Peasant's War in Germany, Switzerland and many more.
Some of those republics had been in existance for centuries by the time the French established the first republic, while the USA was an experiment that had only been around for a few years. I very much doubt that these few years convinced the French that a republic was possible. If anything, it was the long time the previous republics had survived and thrived...


REVOLTS, yes. REPUBLICS, no. Revolts replaced one monarch with another, or installed military-dictators-for-life like Cromwell. France likewise fell into the dictator-for-life model after failing to sustain a republic. Republics had been considered impossible to sustain on larger scales than a city, until the Dutch created theirs, which by the 18th century was falling apart, the stadholder increasing assuming the role of a monarch while his opponents destabilized the country, adding to the argument that it just could not be done. America was the breakthrough: as I have said, there is no way to know the "what ifs" of whether some other country would have managed it if America had not, but the simple fact of the matter is that republican-style governments became the modern model following the American Revolution. The common use of such words as "President" (every tinhorn dictator has to call himself a "President" nowadays!) and "Constitution" ("charter" used to be the standard term for analogous documents on a city scale) is reflective of America's role in making the republican form of government the standard.

I think you are taking yourself far too seriously. The USA wasn't the first republic, it's not the oldest republic, and it wasn't a breakthrough. It was and is one of many.

USA.USA.USA!!!

Excuse me?
Excuse ME, but you might try reading the thread first.

Leaving the obvious examples of ancient city-wide republics (Athenai) and multi-continent-wide republics (Roma)...
I have, REPEATEDLY, mentioned that city-state republics have been common, and that the notorious example of the Roman Republic and the rapid decay of its republican institutions as it scaled up from a city-state to a larger empire was one of the main arguments that republics could not be sustained on a large scale, and have discussed how the Americans were consciously looking to this past in order to determine what could be made to work. The American decision was that it was essential to have a division of powers, a head of state who would return to the status of an ordinary citizen after a few years, and a written document embodying all the rules. These elements were of course modelled after things found in the past; successfully implementing a stable republic on a national scale was an accomplishment that people of the time found amazing and admirable and worthy of imitation. You despise it, now, because you are in an era when you have the luxury of taking it all for granted.
what about:
1.La Serenissima Repubblica di San Marco (capital: Venice)
The head of state was a dictator for life. The rules were not written down and were subject to change only through violence. Venice was in sad decay in the 18th century and was a major example used by those at the time who considered "republics" a bad idea. The contrast between this republic and what America created is exactly what I am talking about.
Do yourself a favour, learn history.
Same to you, sir.

What does your statement even MEAN??? It might be that we would actually agree, except that I do not even know what you are trying to say.


No, we do not agree at all. I never spoke of putting anything into writting, I spoke about crafting. Crafting may involve writing, but I wasn´t referring to that.

You went straight forward to presume that my country took the political system that it has today on account of the US doing it first and you were so wrong. So wrong that, in fact, when it was pointed out to you that before the mighty US of A did it, the Romans, the Greeks, the Republic of Venice, the Catholic state of Florence and San Marino did it before your country, you rattled on about ´writing´. Face the fact that the US hasn´t been the first, nor the best nor the brightest in everything just because you happen to consider it has been. Face that the rest of the world doesn´t follow your country´s example. And for once, leave the American habit of thinking you´re the best because, honestly, no one, no country is the best. If you do that sweetheart, you´ll save yourself a lot of hardship.

Been there. Done that. Still dislike it.

Seconded. I dislike the culture, media and government. I tried it with an open mind, but it was not for me.

Seconded. I dislike the culture, media and government. I tried it with an open mind, but it was not for me.

To me it was such a huge cultural shock. I also tried it with an open mind, but the US of A remains disliked by me as a place to live at.

The constitution, democracy and presidency. He more or less claimed that the rest of the world had systems like that for the one and only reason that the US had it "first".

Well, the U.S. was the first large "artificial" country, in that it was basically a bunch of British people who decided to have their own country in the wilderness and base it off of ideas of natural rights, democracy, etc. I don't think it inspired new democracies or constitutions, but it did inspire people who might not have otherwise to start their own government from scratch. The example everyone always gives is France, but I think the rest of the Americas would be a better example.

-snip-

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o170/psychoticmongooses/Blank-Picard_Facepalm.jpg

Please. From someone who actually has a background in history, I'm begging you. Stop.

You're making my brain hurt.

You think your gas prices are high?

1 litre of petrol = £1.19 average

Roughly £6 ($12) gallon.

Yea ok in the UK we are generally paid better but still..... £6... a gallon...

wasn't long ago when it was half that....

You can buy a bottle of cola for that, and it tastes better...

I am from the USA and I like some of our history (there are bloodstains on it, just as with every nation), I like our constitution and our rights, and I like living here. But I HATE our leaders.

USA.USA.USA!!!

Green? I mean I undertand that white would be hard but......Green?!?!?!?!?1

I really like most of the citizens I've met in a social context. I hate your government.

Take from that what you will. I really hate threads like this. It's like asking if I like everyone with brown hair or something.

Yeah...Bush is almost out though, no worries. I don't think it can get any worse. Living here for all my life so far and I gotta say, I miss the Clinton days

I really like most of the citizens I've met in a social context. I hate your government.

Take from that what you will. I really hate threads like this. It's like asking if I like everyone with brown hair or something.

Yeah...Bush is almost out though, no worries. I don't think it can get any worse. Living here for all my life so far and I gotta say, I miss the Clinton days, not that i wanna have another 4 years of Clinton reign

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o170/psychoticmongooses/Blank-Picard_Facepalm.jpg

Please. From someone who actually has a background in history, I'm begging you. Stop.

You're making my brain hurt.

LMAO!

You tell ´em, Captain Picard!

Green? I mean I undertand that white would be hard but......Green?!?!?!?!?1

Are you talking about the "S?" That's gray on my screen.

First of all, that wierdo Tmutarakhan is wrong and noone should listen to him.

Second of all:

Originally Posted by Fudk
Green? I mean I undertand that white would be hard but......Green?!?!?!?!?1

It's about time the U.S.A. goes green!!!!!!!!!

I dislike U.S. laws: they need to be stricter on businesses, more lax on stuff like drinking, drugs, etc.
I dislike U.S. leaders: Does any sane person like George W. Bush? I know plenty of people who are INsane and like him, but...
I dislike U.S. government: We need to become more activist and limit businesses more. Furthermore, our capitalist model isn't working for the poor or the environment. In addition to welfare, we need to take control of crucial parts of infrastructure such as energy and transportation (and greenify them)
I HATE U.S. media: the media is controlling our government: it has absolute power in its ability to characterize people and policies and are responsible for who's in office today and the continuing split of the democratic party, the absolute destruction of our culture and morals and many other bad, bad things. It's all a corporatist conspiracy.

But I do like U.S. history, and I like some of the people here in the U.S., and it's quite pleasant here in Annapolis, on the Chesapeake Bay... until land developers and loggers come and kill all the trees and destroy the environment. Then I'll, I'll... well, that's for another day.

I wonder if everyone in the USA dislikes everyone else?

I wonder if everyone in the USA dislikes everyone else?
Hell no. We try to live Southern hospitality. Yankees are welcome at my house. I've even opened the door to a Red Sox...

I don't like a lot about my country, but I do think it has a lot of good things that I would hate to lose by moving to another country.

An American speaking:

I hate this country AND its citizenry. Can't wait to move away.

An American speaking:

I hate this country AND its citizenry. Can't wait to move away.

do you have any friends or family?

I love the United States, I love the opportunities I have here, the "for the most part" relative safety I live in, but there are things I dislike about it. The completely useless education system, traffic cops, and the disambiguation that the rich have over the poor. Even things as small as minor infractions of the law, such as seat belts, speeding, etc. can be avoided if not negated all together just by throwing green paper at it. But, for those of you unfortunate enough to not have the correct amount of green paper, it's jail time for you, my friend.

Now, probably one of the most ludacris things I could possibly think of is "Give me green paper, or I'm throwing you in jail and ruining your chances at employment for the next 12 years." And that's exactly what is going on. Just like a police officer that does not know me, a judge that does not know me, can dictate what actions I take in my life, and if I do not obey them they can either kill/maim me, or lock me away forever.

If you can tell, I don't like police.

And to the person who says "Try surviving a week without police." It can be done. And I guarantee you the gun ownership would be on the rise, and after the initial rise in crime that would come from the protection vacuum, crime would at the very least go right back to the way it was, and I'm willing to bet it would decrease. Because rather than rotting in the turtlesque justice system, or simply buying your way out of it, whoever you committed a crime against would simply shoot you.

It's hard to continue to commit crimes sans intact internal organs.

I don't vote, for starters because I've only just been able to, and secondly because every single party is just utterly flawed.

New Labour is a complete clusterfuck
The Conservatives have a xenophobic, greedy power base
The Lib Dems are a joke.

And everyone else is noch crappier, esp the BNP.

Out of interest, why do you think that? Especially regarding the Lib Dems.

*and by this I mean its history/laws/leaders/government/media and so forth, not its citizens. I'm not talking about discriminating on basis of nationality here.

History-had its good points and bad points, like any country. Good-Rescuing Europe in WW1 and WW2, holding off Communism, Iraq war part one
Bad-Slavery, Vietnam, Iraq War part deux.
I'll call it a wash

Laws-Constitution is one of the best articles of government ever constructed, if only because it has survived 200 years, despite the best efforts of the current administration. Rest of laws, eh.

Leaders/government- Waste of life.

Media-Gutless, spineless, mouthpieces for whatever group is in power. Empty stories for empty minds.

So, I don't like that part of the U.S. as much. But the rest of it is pretty good. Especially football and apple pie. Yuuum, apple pie.

I wonder if everyone in the USA dislikes everyone else?

No, I respect and admire many other countries.

On the other hand, when Saddam was in control, terrorism was very much lower than its current level.

I think you would find that terrorism was just as big but it was the government terrorising people and threatning them if they ever stepped out of line, look at the mass graves, go speak to the kurds about Saddams gas attacks and look at their faces of those that survived. Think about that village which saw a large amount of men executed because somebody took a pot shot at Saddam.

Who cares, anyway? Why this need to feel that your country is the first or the best at something, as though somehow you had anything to do with it? It's the same over here to a lesser extent, with politicians telling us that France invented human rights, is the world's greatest model / shining beacon of human rights, that our example inspired the rest of the world, and so on...

I think a lot of his posts is proof of what a lot of people have been posting on this thread about Americans.

I like my country.

Its going downhill, however.

I haven't been out of the country yet, but I don't think I'd want to live anywhere else...everywhere else seems too much to the left for my tastes. (and by everywhere else I mean Europe, Australia, Canada- I wouldn't live in Asia, Africa (well, maybe in Africa), or South America.

Now, I'm not trying to be controversial, but it seems to me that most people I've encountered who aren't from the USA don't particularly like the USA.

So, do you like or dislike the USA*?

*and by this I mean its history/laws/leaders/government/media and so forth, not its citizens. I'm not talking about discriminating on basis of nationality here.

It's not perfect, but its home.

The only home I've known, the only one I'm going to know, and the only one that welcomes me.

Are leaders arn't so bright. But the people are great! Caring, Loving, etc. I am an American, and I am proud to be. I really don't care what you foriegners think about us.

Why can't the world just be friends, but wait, I think its all about jealousy.
Most people are jealous, not all, but most. I am sure Europe is a great place to leave. But Come to America, its the BEST!! :)

Are leaders arn't so bright. But the people are great! Caring, Loving, etc. I am an American, and I am proud to be. I really don't care what you foriegners think about us.

Why can't the world just be friends, but wait, I think its all about jealousy.
Most people are jealous, not all, but most. I am sure Europe is a great place to leave. But Come to America, its the BEST!! :)

ROFL

This is exactly what I thought it would be. An international pissing contest and nationalistic clusterfuck. People berate one nation while totally forgetting their nation is exactly the same. This is happening on both sides.


My you guys are predictable.

This is exactly what I thought it would be. An international pissing contest and nationalistic clusterfuck. People berate one nation while totally forgetting their nation is exactly the same. This is happening on both sides.


My you guys are predictable.
Most threads are equally predictable. For example, threads about queer issues do not center around the relative merits of equality compared to other values; instead, they center around the morality of guys fucking each other in the ass, and about how "fairness" must therefore mean that people should also be able to marry their dogs and sisters (at the same time, obviously, so that we can cover bestiality, incest and polyamory simultaneously).

On the topic at hand, I will just say this: people around the world probably dislike what they perceive to be American Arrogance (TM) and forget that many Americans are not arrogant and evil. We all have our issues, and the point is that we need to all fix them as individual nations.

When will most Americans realize that dropping bombs on people does NOT mean they will want to be like US? *Sigh* I liked FDR though.

No, we do not agree at all. I never spoke of putting anything into writting, I spoke about crafting. Crafting may involve writing, but I wasn´t referring to that.
My question was: what ARE you referring to? I do not know what you even mean by this word "crafting".
You went straight forward to presume that my country took the political system that it has today on account of the US doing it first and you were so wrong.
Your country has adopted a modern model of governance because other European countries have done so and taught Spain how it is done. France was the first to try it. I do not say whether France MIGHT or MIGHT NOT have eventually attempted a nation-scale republic without the American example, since "what ifs" are unknowable, just that on the planet we actually live on, France only attempted its first republic because America had shown it to be possible.
So wrong that, in fact, when it was pointed out to you that before the mighty US of A did it, the Romans, the Greeks, the Republic of Venice, the Catholic state of Florence and San Marino did it before your country, you rattled on about ´writing´.
What all those did was very different.

San Marino is a tiny city-state. As I keep on mentioning, city-states have always been regarded as very different from nation-states, and it was the common wisdom before the American experiment that what works in a city-state cannot be scaled up to a nation. Venice and Florence (and Genoa, also mentioned in another post) were city-states with dependent territories: none of the inhabitants of those vassal territories outside the city participated in the republican institutions at all, with all the difficulties in maintaining their loyalties that this implies; it is why they were easily destroyed. Rome started out the same way, but after the Punic Wars their dependent territories were so large it became necessary to try granting citizenship to reliable people outside the city; this thoroughly destabilized its "crafted" constitution, which was only suitable for a city-state and had no agreed-upon procedure for changing it; the disastrous outcome of the Roman Republic was the main example people used in arguing that large-scale republics are unfeasible. And "Greece"? It did not exist as a nation until the Macedonian monarchs united it. Certain of the city-states, such as famously Athens, were republican, but the republics were always destroyed when they acquired any sizable dependent territories.

The more relevant examples of large-scale republican institutions developing before the American experiment would be the Dutch and Swiss. Neither of them however created a model which was imitated. America did.
Face the fact that the US hasn´t been the first, nor the best nor the brightest in everything just because you happen to consider it has been. Face that the rest of the world doesn´t follow your country´s example. And for once, leave the American habit of thinking you´re the best because, honestly, no one, no country is the best. If you do that sweetheart, you´ll save yourself a lot of hardship.
Like most of my opponents on this thread, you seem to be arguing with things I have never said, while denying the very basic fact that is all I was trying to point out. I am not, actually, a patriotic American: as I have stated on numerous threads, I don't feel welcome in this country and would emigrate in a heartbeat if Canada would have me (at my age, Canada wants to see me put a large sum of money in the bank before I immigrate). Neither am I claiming that America invented its system out of the blue: quite the contrary, I have been emphasizing that the founders carefully examined the histories of the republics that had gone before.
However, it is just a plain fact that America created the first sustainable nation-scale republic, and that all the other governments following this model, starting with the first republic in France, exist because, yes, the world DID follow America's lead on that. Just about every nation on earth calls the head of state "President", and has a written charter called a "Constitution", because those are the words the Americans chose.

This is just about impossible for me to answer, but I'll give it a shot.;)

I was born in Toronto and have dual citizen ship, but was born a US citizen and raised the first 13 years of my life there, so I'll say I'm from the US. Now to the tricky part:

I admire a great deal about the US system of government. I also have many friends living there. But I don't like the direction the US is heading at all (unless, God willing, Obama gets in). In the end I don't consider myself a patriot. I don't really believe in loyalty to nations, or organizations in general, since they become corrupted and change there principles, and have no inherent value, only the value of the principles they stand for at the time. I try to be loyal only to principles and individuals.

So do I like America? I certainly have nothing against Americans in general, being one myself, but I would not choose to live in America right now, and in the end, I view it as just another political entity containing a variety of cultural values, good mixed with bad. What I'm saying is that I like certain aspects of America, but that America is far too complex to simply "like" or "dislike" as a whole.

Tough question, but I'm going with "American, Dislike", though I wish you had included a neutral/undecided option.

Edit: just noticed the "other" option, but its too late now.:headbang:

I like the USA. I hate the Government.

I like the USA. I hate the Government.
Oh noes... Traitor!

Now, I'm not trying to be controversial, but it seems to me that most people I've encountered who aren't from the USA don't particularly like the USA.

So, do you like or dislike the USA*?

*and by this I mean its history/laws/leaders/government/media and so forth, not its citizens. I'm not talking about discriminating on basis of nationality here.

History: Hit and miss. Has taken a turn for the worse over the course of the past century.

Laws: Too many, too intrusive, too impossible for a layman to understand. I like the Constitution insofar as it set up a very limited federal government, but...

Leaders: Mostly power-hungry greedy dirtbags who would sell their parents into slavery to get reelected and who couldn't pour water out of a boot even if the instructions were printed on the heel. so....

Government: Has gone to hell in a handbasket due to manipulative bastards in office who perverted the decent framework to meet their own goals of power.

Media: Always biased to one side or the other. Objective news reporting is a myth. Even when some slight effort is made to avoid having a political slant to a story in the news, the bias is visible from the sources chosen and the stories that are ignored. Most of our dramatic and comedic TV shows are crap, too. "Reality" shows have infested every evening lineup, and all the remaining sitcoms have sunk to half-hour skits about bodily functions.

Despite all that, I like my country. I mourn for what it was and could have been, and I do what I can to oppose the current descent into despotism.

Media: Always biased to one side or the other. Objective news reporting is a myth. Even when some slight effort is made to avoid having a political slant to a story in the news, the bias is visible from the sources chosen and the stories that are ignored. Most of our dramatic and comedic TV shows are crap, too. "Reality" shows have infested every evening lineup, and all the remaining sitcoms have sunk to half-hour skits about bodily functions.

I agree. "Unbiased" media is just "centrist" bias. If anything, what we need is more plurality in (biased) media. And besides, people will just listen to the media that mirrors their political beliefs. So other people will watch FOX or CNN, and I will go to Infoshop (http://www.infoshop.org).

This is exactly what I thought it would be. An international pissing contest and nationalistic clusterfuck. People berate one nation while totally forgetting their nation is exactly the same. This is happening on both sides.


My you guys are predictable.

Same go for you to KoL, I have a very good idea of what your will post on any particular topic. And I agree with Everywhar most threads are predictable, even those on Religion usually turn out to be why Christians and Christianity is shit, and the only reason why there is problems in the world.

I am not from USA and I neither like or dislike that country.

I tell you what. Disregarding party affiliation and policies, if the US elects Barak Obama as president it will be gob-smackingly awesome. I can't see Australia being able to do that sort of thing.

The US is so amazingly democratic at times but so f**king horrible at others. Definitely a love / hate relationship for Australians.

The people are (mostly) lovely, though I'd loathe spending any time in the Bible Belt (even in Florida the proliferation of churches made me feel a little queasy and, well, unwelcome - no such problem in debauched Las Vegas!); the administration (at present) is awful. Everyone in America (except the current president, apparently) is so erudite and polite compared to in rainy Britain. We know how to queue, though.

The people are (mostly) lovely, though I'd loathe spending any time in the Bible Belt (even in Florida the proliferation of churches made me feel a little queasy and, well, unwelcome - no such problem in debauched Las Vegas!); the administration (at present) is awful. Everyone in America (except the current president, apparently) is so erudite and polite compared to in rainy Britain. We know how to queue, though.

there are more churches in Vegas then in Florida. Given most are just so you can do a quicky marriage.

I'd hardly describe those as "churches". "Wedding mills", yes, "churches", no. My sister got married in the Bellagio, it was an extremely ecumenical ceremony. I don't think God was mentioned.

And really, in Las Vegas alone? More than in the whole state of Florida? I doubt it, I saw six down one street, all side by side. Sent a shudder down my spine.

So far, my perception of this thread:

1.- People ask why "americans" are disliked abroad.

2.- People from abroad express their views, and explain to them why they believe americans are despised, or why they dislike the United States or "americans" in general.

3.- Americans answer stating that they are great exactly for the reasons that others stated they are despised.

Really, people, I try to not develop a bias, but...Help me to help myself.^This^
I am from the USA but i have traveled out of country a good bit and i think there are definetely things that other countries have that we should try to be more like them in, but in general its an alright place EXCEPT FOR THE FLIPIN HIGH GAS PRICES!!!! :headbang:I'm interested to know how you managed to travel to a country that has lower gas prices than the US. Iran is the only one I know of that qualifies.
I agree. "Unbiased" media is just "centrist" bias. If anything, what we need is more plurality in (biased) media. And besides, people will just listen to the media that mirrors their political beliefs. So other people will watch FOX or CNN, and I will go to Infoshop (http://www.infoshop.org).Bullshit. You can't become well informed by listening to a balance of crap from both sides. You need to listen to the ones that try to keep the spin to a minimum, or at the very least manage to separate commentary and news.

i live in teh damd place the u.s. is pissing out of, and do feel slightly safer, maybe, then i would somplace it was outside of pissing in. but i fail to see that as anything to be proud of.

what i dislike is government of little green pieces of paper, by little green pieces of paper, and for little green pieces of paper, that don't give a rats ass about any real person, place or thing, destroying, sometimes after the fact, and more and more recently, down right deliberately, anything and everything that makes the kind of world we all have to live in, worth living in.

=^^=
.../\...

The purpose of the media isn't to change people's opinions, it is to inform them of what is occuring. Fox in particular is a very un-hilarious joke. That O'Reilly man is despicable.

I'd hardly describe those as "churches". "Wedding mills", yes, "churches", no. My sister got married in the Bellagio, it was an extremely ecumenical ceremony. I don't think God was mentioned.

And really, in Las Vegas alone? More than in the whole state of Florida? I doubt it, I saw six down one street, all side by side. Sent a shudder down my spine.

Where are you from? In some parts of European countries I've been to, there's a church every block.

It's not the fact that they're Christians that bothers me about the bible belt. It's their take on the religion, the way they use it to justify hate and closed mindedness.

I agree. "Unbiased" media is just "centrist" bias. If anything, what we need is more plurality in (biased) media. And besides, people will just listen to the media that mirrors their political beliefs. So other people will watch FOX or CNN, and I will go to Infoshop (http://www.infoshop.org).
The last thing America needs is more ideological echo-chambers.

Originally Posted by Knights of Liberty View Post
This is exactly what I thought it would be. An international pissing contest and nationalistic clusterfuck. People berate one nation while totally forgetting their nation is exactly the same. This is happening on both sides.
------
what else would you expect from fraiming your perceptions in an us or them mentality?

you don't have to deny that there are other ways of screwing everything up, to not deny, that putting symbolic value and trying to impress each other ahead of anything real, is not only one of them, but no better then any of the others.

there are no "two" sides. there is an infinity of them. and each of us is one of our own.
at least i am. and damd proud to be. not some imaginary national us. but a single member of all of self awaire beings throughout all of however many whole universes there might happen to be.

"glory not in this that you love your country, glory in this that you love mankind"!

=^^=
.../\...

Where are you from? In some parts of European countries I've been to, there's a church every block.

It's not the fact that they're Christians that bothers me about the bible belt. It's their take on the religion, the way they use it to justify hate and closed mindedness.

Scotland, where the Kirk is all but dead. There are hundreds of them, yes (thank you, Victorians) but most are no longer places of worship; they've been converted. So now they're just nice gothic architecture, really.

See, I object to the book itself.

Are leaders arn't so bright. But the people are great! Caring, Loving, etc. I am an American, and I am proud to be. I really don't care what you foriegners think about us.

Why can't the world just be friends, but wait, I think its all about jealousy.
Most people are jealous, not all, but most. I am sure Europe is a great place to leave. But Come to America, its the BEST!! :)

*Facepalm*

*Facepalm*It might be sarcasm.

Now, I'm not trying to be controversial, but it seems to me that most people I've encountered who aren't from the USA don't particularly like the USA.

So, do you like or dislike the USA*?

*and by this I mean its history/laws/leaders/government/media and so forth, not its citizens. I'm not talking about discriminating on basis of nationality here.

I'm from the US and I'm pretty much split. I think the Constitution is one of the best documents ever devised and that our laws are decently fair. I can't say our history is the greatest, but many other nations have committed similar or worse atrocities so I can't say it bothers me more than the atrocities of other nations. I hate the media, which does nothing but turn out biased sensationalist crap (which is why I look to BBC). I disagree with both major political parties, so I can't say I really like our representatives. I extremely dislike our foreign policy, which is pretty terrible right now. And I'm pretty bummed about the republican's theocratic social agenda and the democrats' idiotic economic agenda.

But I love the people and the land, though, and overall I'm pretty happy to live here.

kharma is real. for the past decade, if not 30 years, if not 60 if not 200 and some odd, america has been rolling up a huge kharmic debt.

sooner or latter, eventually that debt will be called in. not by one quixotic dissident band or another, but by the very fabric of the universe itself, at times and in ways no one can with any sort of accuracy entirely predict.

of course the same goes for many other nations. well that isn't going to do it a whole lot of good either. it or any of them. but it especially it, because right now, its the biggest bully that's terrorizing everyone else.

i love the rocks and the trees and the little furry creatures with big sharp teeth, the people i could take or leave. over all i'm NOT AT ALL happy with 'here' being HERE.

the only thing that would improve on the rocks, trees, and little furry creatures would be torii gates and narrow gauge railways (solar powered, modern, multiple unit, very narrow gauge, very minimal form factor, and taking the place almost entirely, of anything resembling the private passinger automobile as we know it today). the biggest improvement, outside of ceasing to demonize everything that doesn't kiss the ass of symbolic value, would be for the birth rate to be drastically lowered below that of the death rate from natural causes untill the population was brought down to a sustainable level, approximately 1/20th what it is currently.

=^^=
.../\...

The more relevant examples of large-scale republican institutions developing before the American experiment would be the Dutch and Swiss. Neither of them however created a model which was imitated. America did.

Really? And here was me thinking that the American model was a mirror image of the Swiss....


However, it is just a plain fact that America created the first sustainable nation-scale republic, and that all the other governments following this model, starting with the first republic in France, exist because, yes, the world DID follow America's lead on that. Just about every nation on earth calls the head of state "President", and has a written charter called a "Constitution", because those are the words the Americans chose.

*pre-sident* from pre-sedere = sitting in front. It's not THAT novel, and no, the majority of nations actually have different titles for their heads of states.

Again, do you honestly think an out-of-the-way little colony that had been independent for a bit over a decade would have been a major influence on the French revolutionaries? As opposed to countries and empires that had existed for centuries as republics and democracies? Really? Seriously?

Again, do you honestly think an out-of-the-way little colony that had been independent for a bit over a decade would have been a major influence on the French revolutionaries? As opposed to countries and empires that had existed for centuries as republics and democracies? Really? Seriously?

this is the problem with looking backwards at history, as it is commonly taught in public education, throught the eyes of "rose colored" historians. (i.e. those not upsetting the applecarts of dominant political and economic interests)

its impossible for most people to get a feel for the perspectives of people in past times that shaped events that happend in them. (and generally, those dominant political and economic intrests don't WANT people to anyway, for very obviosly vested reasons of their own)

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I am in the USA and I love the ideal behind it. Unfortunately, the USA (the one with the US Constitution) and the USA (the one we see today) are two entirely different things.

It is said that the people of the USA (and any other peoples/nations for that matter) are hateful, murderers, warmongers, oppressive, restrictive, devolved, closed minded, [insert your favorite bash from your own perch of the same name here]...well all I can say is that I think we have a lot of company.

I suppose many (I know a lot of US citizens do and am pretty sure that even more foreigners do) rationalize that any failings or perceived failings of the USA should be laid on the shoulders of the US president (the whole captain of the ship thing), but truly, much of the blame for the failings should rest on the two houses of Congress.

The only reason I mention this is really for my fellow Americans which might take offense at how parts of the world may have a negative image of the USA or they have a penchant to go on a USA bashing tirade. Relax, they either don't get it because they are on the outside looking in, or they have no care to clean up their own doorstep...so the USA is a good target for their own inner failings. So what? Either way, it doesn't matter, the only thing anyone can really do is tend to our own neighborhoods, and then someday, maybe we and they can step down from our self-righteous places at the lectern and really start talking for once. Until then, let the ignorant have their day.

Heh, I like the USA as a whole. As a nation, it has a brilliant cross section of people from different backgrounds and nationalities, great national parks and and some of the places (cities or otherwise) i'd like to visit at least once in my life.

Its your current Government i don't like.

kharma is real. for the past decade, if not 30 years, if not 60 if not 200 and some odd, america has been rolling up a huge kharmic debt.

sooner or latter, eventually that debt will be called in. not by one quixotic dissident band or another, but by the very fabric of the universe itself, at times and in ways no one can with any sort of accuracy entirely predict.

of course the same goes for many other nations. well that isn't going to do it a whole lot of good either. it or any of them. but it especially it, because right now, its the biggest bully that's terrorizing everyone else.

i love the rocks and the trees and the little furry creatures with big sharp teeth, the people i could take or leave. over all i'm NOT AT ALL happy with 'here' being HERE.

the only thing that would improve on the rocks, trees, and little furry creatures would be torii gates and narrow gauge railways (solar powered, modern, multiple unit, very narrow gauge, very minimal form factor, and taking the place almost entirely, of anything resembling the private passinger automobile as we know it today). the biggest improvement, outside of ceasing to demonize everything that doesn't kiss the ass of symbolic value, would be for the birth rate to be drastically lowered below that of the death rate from natural causes untill the population was brought down to a sustainable level, approximately 1/20th what it is currently.

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True. Those American bastards have been rolling up a horrible kharmic debt... leading the fight to free Kuwait, bankrupting Communism, working with the UK and other allies in destroying Fascism, putting a man on the moon, giving aid all over the world, helping destroy Monarchy with the fall of the four Great Houses in WW1, developing the first modern Republic and being the crucible of human rights... the myraid of new inventions, technologies and being the world's financial engine for the last century. :D

Has the US done some bad things? Yes. Every country does. It's the problem of the country being run by human beings. But on the whole, the US has a *far* lesser "kharmic debt" than I think you claim. In terms of national achievement, it's done quite well for a state only 230 years old.

Heh, I like the USA as a whole. As a nation, it has a brilliant cross section of people from different backgrounds and nationalities, great national parks and and some of the places (cities or otherwise) i'd like to visit at least once in my life.

Its your current Government i don't like.

That'll change for sure on 20 January. Not sure who'll take over, but I find that most people dislike the current gov't no matter whom is in charge. ;)

That'll change for sure on 20 January. Not sure who'll take over, but I find that most people dislike the current gov't no matter whom is in charge. ;)

As long as McCain (should he get in), Clinton (Why the hell wont shejust give up already!) or Obama (would be nice to see what he could do with the states with 4 if not 8 years) are not another Bush jnr.. It would all be ok...

Bush jnr's foreign policy, and that of my own country, leave a lot to be desired.

As long as McCain (should he get in), Clinton (Why the hell wont shejust give up already!) or Obama (would be nice to see what he could do with the states with 4 if not 8 years) are not another Bush jnr.. It would all be ok...

Bush jnr's foreign policy, and that of my own country, leave a lot to be desired.

Clinton won't quit because she simply can't. This is her only chance to run...
* If Obama wins and does well, she's out until 2016. At that point most people won't remember/care about the "Clinton Legacy".
* If Obama wins and does poorly, the country will probably not want another Democrat in the White House anyway. The last time the country elected two Democrats in a row was 1964, and that's keeping in mind the assassination of JFK the prior year. Prior to that? Truman in 1945.
* If McCain wins and does well, it's the same as Obama: she'll be in the woods just like Carter in 1984 or Gore in 2004. The Democrats do *not* have a good history of recycling their candidates and keeping viable ones around for the next round.
* If McCain wins and does poorly would be her only shot at 2012, and even that would require a fairly narrow set of circumstances: the country would have to be going VERY badly, there would have to be no other strong DEM candidates that she couldn't overcome, etc.

Tack onto this that the "old hands" from Bill's administration (which you see standing behind her) are getting older. She may/SHOULD want to avoid the mess W. got when he took on Rumsfeld and Cheney (et al) from the Ford/G.W. Bush Legacy.