NationStates Jolt Archive

My six year old is...enamoured of the Catholic church at the moment. She attended my niece's first communion and has been bitten by the Jesus bug. It doesn't help that churches tend to target children and make it all fun and games mixed in with a little 'God made the whole earth' and 'this is the Holy Trinity' blah blah blah.

Now...I'm an atheist. Any spirituality in this house comes from my First Nations background, and it decidedly anti-Catholic in particular. I am...concerned about her sudden interest in religious dogma, but I don't want to say horrid things about Christianity to her either.

So what does one do in a situation like this? At what age should children 'choose' their religion? Can I hope she'll grow out of it? Parents with experience in this area...please, help me draw my child back from the abyss...

she's 6. indulge her. its mostly harmless. she is very unlikely to end up in a convent

My six year old is...enamoured of the Catholic church at the moment. She attended my niece's first communion and has been bitten by the Jesus bug. It doesn't help that churches tend to target children and make it all fun and games mixed in with a little 'God made the whole earth' and 'this is the Holy Trinity' blah blah blah.

Now...I'm an atheist. Any spirituality in this house comes from my First Nations background, and it decidedly anti-Catholic in particular. I am...concerned about her sudden interest in religious dogma, but I don't want to say horrid things about Christianity to her either.

So what does one do in a situation like this? At what age should children 'choose' their religion? Can I hope she'll grow out of it? Parents with experience in this area...please, help me draw my child back from the abyss...

Have some patience, Neesika, your daughter´s only 6. Let her check things out. I believe that´s just a phase and she´ll grow out of it. Just give her the space in that and don´t be worried.

Parents get the toughest issues - the consequences of a wrong decision seem so great but, as Ashmoria says, she's probably more interested in the social aspect, the fun and glitter and the overall ceremony than actually being interested in religion.

You could think that, but then she could become a strict fundamentalist and end up in a weird commune, hating you and everything you stand for.

Decisions, decisions.

I just recently got custody of my 6 year old son. He now has gone from Atlantis crystal power stuff, to a Christian invironment.

she's 6. indulge her. its mostly harmless. she is very unlikely to end up in a convent

Ugh, no, the worst part is having to listen to this crap and NOT laugh out loud. I mean...she's taking it so seriously, I don't want to mock it.

But it's so hard not to.

So very hard.

I just recently got custody of my 6 year old son. He now has gone from Atlantis crystal power stuff, to a Christian invironment.

are you "enforcing" christianity with him?

Why should she grow out of it?

At any rate, I am sure she will decide what she believes in one way or another eventually. All you can do is make sure she is informed about whatever she chooses.

Ugh, no, the worst part is having to listen to this crap and NOT laugh out loud. I mean...she's taking it so seriously, I don't want to mock it.

But it's so hard not to.

So very hard.

do you laugh at her when she comes home with an imaginary friend?

and

do you discuss your cree beliefs with her and bring them to play in your daily life?

Parents get the toughest issues - the consequences of a wrong decision seem so great but, as Ashmoria says, she's probably more interested in the social aspect, the fun and glitter and the overall ceremony than actually being interested in religion. I think this is the big draw for her. In which case, I'm taking her on the powwow trail again this year, with her own regalia, and enrolling her in some of the dance competitions. We can outpomp Jesus anyday!

The good parent thing to do would probably(I say this because I'm no parent, what do I know?) be to give Neesika Jr. an unbiased run down on the Jesus Fan Club. Give her the facts before she gets the propaganda.

If you just want to scare her out of being a catholic I'm sure the witch hunts and crusades would go down well. And some scary accounts of how horribly Jesus died. And maybe some WBC.

My six year old is...enamoured of the Catholic church at the moment. She attended my niece's first communion and has been bitten by the Jesus bug. It doesn't help that churches tend to target children and make it all fun and games mixed in with a little 'God made the whole earth' and 'this is the Holy Trinity' blah blah blah.

Now...I'm an atheist. Any spirituality in this house comes from my First Nations background, and it decidedly anti-Catholic in particular. I am...concerned about her sudden interest in religious dogma, but I don't want to say horrid things about Christianity to her either.

So what does one do in a situation like this? At what age should children 'choose' their religion? Can I hope she'll grow out of it? Parents with experience in this area...please, help me draw my child back from the abyss...

"Grow" out of it? Thats not a fair statement, or feeling. If you are considering discouraging it, you would become the very fundementalist that you despise.

I'm not a parent... but why don't you just ride it out? Talk openly, and frankly with your child, while trying to remain unbiased (this should be their choice, remember, not yours, you've made yours, and should be satisfied with that).

I'd suggest encouraging religious discussion, covering (again, in as unbiased a manner as possible) many religions, and of course, one of the only alternatives to religion (that is to say, agnosticism). If your child has not had a serious religious experience, this feeling will likely fade, many children go through many such phases, perhaps this is such an example, and nothing more. Perhaps there really is a pantheon of demi-deities who were once humans, but have achieved superiority to us regular humans because the Church says so (as per Catholic teaching), and this God (or His representative demi-deities) really did touch your child, and this will be a permanent thing, in which case I caution you against discouragement, otherwise the child will quesiton him(her?)self, or you, neither are directly beneficial to the situation.

Like I said, encourage discussion, don't discourage (unless it's scientology, lol), and ride it out, maybe it is a 'phase' to be outgrown, but then again, maybe not, let that be your childs judgement call, and not yours, is my advice.

Ask the priest standard stuff ("How did jesus die?" "Was it painful?" "What does the church teach about witches?") when the child is in hearing range but the priest doesn't know it -- it's the only way to get your child an unbiased opinion.

Just make sure you don't make it some sort of forbidden thing, that'll just make it all the more appealing. Best to just let her sort out her religious beliefs with time. With close monitoring of course. ;)

She's 6 right?

Give it a few weeks, then if she hasn't got bored with it by then try and convert her to Pastafarianism.

"Grow" out of it? Thats not a fair statement, or feeling. It's perfectly valid considering that children are particularly able to suspend disbelief and believe in all sorts of fairy tales and imaginary beings. As one grows older, one's credulity tends to decrease, which I think is a good thing overall.

I'll address your other points later...gotta go for a bit.

All I remember of being six was spending about 3,000 hours playing Nintendo/Atari. If learning about Jesus means reading, I'd encourage it. :p

My six year old is...enamoured of the Catholic church at the moment. She attended my niece's first communion and has been bitten by the Jesus bug. It doesn't help that churches tend to target children and make it all fun and games mixed in with a little 'God made the whole earth' and 'this is the Holy Trinity' blah blah blah.

Now...I'm an atheist. Any spirituality in this house comes from my First Nations background, and it decidedly anti-Catholic in particular. I am...concerned about her sudden interest in religious dogma, but I don't want to say horrid things about Christianity to her either.

So what does one do in a situation like this? At what age should children 'choose' their religion? Can I hope she'll grow out of it? Parents with experience in this area...please, help me draw my child back from the abyss...

Heh, as a Catholic (nominally) I don't see it as quite the negative you do but... rather than make a big deal about it which is sure to make her more interested, why not take the opportunity to teach her about other faiths -- kind of like "world cultural history". Communion, really, is a rite of passage -- why not show her the appropriate rite of passage from your own beliefs?

Most likely it's the novelty factor at the moment -- if it's placed within the context of a spectrum of belief systems she may lose interest in its newness.

My six year old is...enamoured of the Catholic church at the moment. She attended my niece's first communion and has been bitten by the Jesus bug. It doesn't help that churches tend to target children and make it all fun and games mixed in with a little 'God made the whole earth' and 'this is the Holy Trinity' blah blah blah.

Now...I'm an atheist. Any spirituality in this house comes from my First Nations background, and it decidedly anti-Catholic in particular. I am...concerned about her sudden interest in religious dogma, but I don't want to say horrid things about Christianity to her either.

So what does one do in a situation like this? At what age should children 'choose' their religion? Can I hope she'll grow out of it? Parents with experience in this area...please, help me draw my child back from the abyss...

Let her be enamored for a while, she'll grow and start to question, then answer honestly. My kids started asking a few years back.

"Is there really a God?"
"I don't know"
"why do some people believe in one?"
"why do you think?"
"I think it's a nice story"
"maybe they think so too"

Ask more than you answer and let them lead. In the end they will come out with what they really think anyway, as long as you are cool with talking about it, they will ask their own questions.

My six year old is...enamoured of the Catholic church at the moment. She attended my niece's first communion and has been bitten by the Jesus bug. It doesn't help that churches tend to target children and make it all fun and games mixed in with a little 'God made the whole earth' and 'this is the Holy Trinity' blah blah blah.

Now...I'm an atheist. Any spirituality in this house comes from my First Nations background, and it decidedly anti-Catholic in particular. I am...concerned about her sudden interest in religious dogma, but I don't want to say horrid things about Christianity to her either.

So what does one do in a situation like this? At what age should children 'choose' their religion? Can I hope she'll grow out of it? Parents with experience in this area...please, help me draw my child back from the abyss...

she is still too young to choose her own religion but you should not stop her from going. But if you let her go, she will start to have questions. Such as:

why are you not a catholic
what is the difference between an athiest and a catholic

Make sure you are open with her about these things and that you appear comfortable asking them.

A good age for children to decide which religion they want to follow is about 12 to 13.

It is also recommended to expose children to as many types of faiths as possible so they can make a more informed decision when the time comes.

The good parent thing to do would probably(I say this because I'm no parent, what do I know?) be to give Neesika Jr. an unbiased run down on the Jesus Fan Club. Give her the facts before she gets the propaganda.

If you just want to scare her out of being a catholic I'm sure the witch hunts and crusades would go down well. And some scary accounts of how horribly Jesus died. And maybe some WBC.

I like how you use the word 'facts' in a horribly biased, and not fact-based post. It shows very well why your opinion shouldn't be listened to. Thanks, it's almost as clear as a disclaimer.

Also, about the Crusades, and Witch Hunts, you're right, only Christians could go to war, or kill others for being below them... oh wait... no they couldn't, look at any war that didn't use religion as a justification for a trans-global human trait.

I think this is the big draw for her. In which case, I'm taking her on the powwow trail again this year, with her own regalia, and enrolling her in some of the dance competitions. We can outpomp Jesus anyday!

I've been to "Gateway to the Nations" (A pow-wow held at Gateway National Park) before and must say that the dance competitions seriously look like both a lot of hard work and fun. My best friends' girls both want jingle dresses now. :)

Parents get the toughest issues - the consequences of a wrong decision seem so great but, as Ashmoria says, she's probably more interested in the social aspect, the fun and glitter and the overall ceremony than actually being interested in religion.

You could think that, but then she could become a strict fundamentalist and end up in a weird commune, hating you and everything you stand for.

Decisions, decisions.

Or she could decide to try to convert you to her new faith. That is what some children do. They try to pressure their parents into converting. LOL

But you don't need to worry about that until they are like 15 or 16. LOL

It's perfectly valid considering that children are particularly able to suspend disbelief and believe in all sorts of fairy tales and imaginary beings. As one grows older, one's credulity tends to decrease, which I think is a good thing overall.

I'll address your other points later...gotta go for a bit.

I didn't say it was invalid... I said unfair, there is a difference.

she is still too young to choose her own religion

No, she's to young to make any permanent decisions based on the religion she chooses. That's a very different thing.

take her to other religion's and let her talk with them.
I don't mean different churches, I mean like Hindu temples and a Buddhist temples. The Hindu in particular are good at explaining things.

If she will become confused she will come to you for guidance. Dont tell her all religions are wrong, instead suggest that maybe every indivual needs a differnt religion.


that failing start taking her to church. just be certain it is the 6 am service on Sunday and make sure she wears one of those uncomfortable nice dresses

Ugh, no, the worst part is having to listen to this crap and NOT laugh out loud. I mean...she's taking it so seriously, I don't want to mock it.

But it's so hard not to.

So very hard.

Pretend to be interested. Ask her questions.

OF course she is taking it all seriously. she is only six.
Just make sure you don't laugh at her. It hurts a child's feelings to be laughed at because of their beliefs.

Pretend to be interested. Ask her questions.

OF course she is taking it all seriously. she is only six.
Just make sure you don't laugh at her. It hurts a child's feelings to be laughed at because of their beliefs.

I agree. Do everything in your power to encourage as much thought about the issue as you can. You can show her all the ways in which Christianity (Cath. specifically) is bad. Or you can explain what the message of Jesus was really about (which is actually not Catholicism, so you might want to save that until she seems genuinely interested in a halfdozen years). Explain other religions, and maybe hold off on giving your own views for the moment. She should base hers on how she feels, and what she knows, and who she is, not because of a parent. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying load on the heavy religious conversation, she probably won't understand much of it yet, but, like many people have said, encourage her to think about it, and expose her (openly) to many beliefs, and let her form her own opinion, even if it isn't the same as yours.

I like how you use the word 'facts' in a horribly biased, and not fact-based post. It shows very well why your opinion shouldn't be listened to. Thanks, it's almost as clear as a disclaimer.
So if I re-wrote it with Catholicism of Christianity instead of Jesus Fan Club, would you still have a problem?

Also, about the Crusades, and Witch Hunts, you're right, only Christians could go to war, or kill others for being below them... oh wait... no they couldn't, look at any war that didn't use religion as a justification for a trans-global human trait.

Did you even read that paragraph of just see the words 'crusades' and 'witch hunts' and react? It was a (not serious) suggestion on how to scare a child out of becoming a christian. I thought it was obvious that that was meant to be the wrong option. My mistake.

Did you even read that paragraph of just see the words 'crusades' and 'witch hunts' and react? It was a (not serious) suggestion on how to scare a child out of becoming a christian. I thought it was obvious that that was meant to be the wrong option. My mistake.
She wouldn't win anyway. I grew up with a grandmother who was Irish Catholic, the stories of the martyrs are way more gruesome anyway.

Now, being a christian myself (though not a catholic) I don't really see it as all that much of a horrible thing, although I perfectly understand your concern. I don't want a perfectly good little girl growing up to be a babbling nut who thinks muslims are followers of the antichrist and that all gay people are going to hell, but I am equally opposed to her growing up thinking that all religious people are like the aforementioned.

As to your concern, really, a child spending a short amount of time in a church isnt going to influence her much later on. While being raised in an entirely christian, muslim, atheist etc. environment can influence them to a large degree, even that isnt certain to dictate their later life, and small amounts of exposure are very unlikely to. Of course, she could still become religious in her later life, but it is her choice to make. In my opinion, exposure to multiple viewpoints can only help her. The more diverse a religious background she has, the more likely the choice she makes later in life will truly be her own. Remember that although you may not like the choices she makes, ultimately the best thing for her is that which makes HER happy.

Inform her of the alternatives, if you are so inclined.
There's plenty of religions out there. I, myself, would prefer some form of Christianity, but I dont really get a say in the matter :P
Give her the information she needs to make an informed choice once she's old enough to make descisions on her own

Sway her as strongly as possible towards athiesm.

I'm getting the veiled idea here that it is somehow better.

Yep.

Go for it.

Give her the facts without bias.

She probably won't choose Christianity if you do that, but if she does, be prepared to accept it.

A big problem for me is my antipathy towards having to learn about Christianity. Blech. Just blech. I don't want to have to bone up on it in order to debate religious dogma with my six year old...but then again, she's starting to learn how to construct good legal arguments, and that's definitely my fault for encouraging...so perhaps this is karma :D

To combat this, I'm working on telling my girls more of the Wisagatcak (Cree trickster) tales, and creation stories. If they are going to delve deeply into fantasy, they might as well get it from as many sources as possible.

She wouldn't win anyway. I grew up with a grandmother who was Irish Catholic, the stories of the martyrs are way more gruesome anyway.

Ifreann brand advice does not come with any guarantees of quality.

Neesika...

You can't impose your beleifs on your children. YOu have to let them pick for themselves. If you try to dissuade you daughter or force your atheist beliefs on her than you would be just as bad as all those religious people who force thier children into religion. She's her own person and even though she is 6 she has her own right to choose; she needs to make her own choice and if you love her, you'll support her regardless of that choice. Besides, she's only six years old and it will rpobably be no more than a few weeks before she is interested ins omething else entirely.

So if I re-wrote it with Catholicism of Christianity instead of Jesus Fan Club, would you still have a problem?

Did you even read that paragraph of just see the words 'crusades' and 'witch hunts' and react? It was a (not serious) suggestion on how to scare a child out of becoming a christian. I thought it was obvious that that was meant to be the wrong option. My mistake.

Yes, I still would've had a problem, Jesus Fan Club is both amusing, and potentially positive to me, I'd consider myself a member, lol.

I did read the whole paragraph, and did not realize that you were not serious, the tone of the whole post in general confused me.

Sway her as strongly as possible towards athiesm.

I'm getting the veiled idea here that it is somehow better.

Yep.

Go for it.
Most parents want their children to follow their beliefs. In the case of most religious people, it isn't presented as an option...their beliefs are their children's beliefs, full stop...until the child is old enough to question that.

I'm not going to force my child to be an atheist...but I would have real difficulty understanding an actual choice, in the future, to become honestly religious. I don't expect that this is going to happen right now, but it's something that is very much a possibility in the future. And since my nation is predominantly Christian, that is most likely the route she'd take.

I don't want to make this forbidden fruit, nor do I want to stomp all over the beliefs of others...despite the way I feel about those beliefs, and reject them as anything I would adhere to. However when it comes to religion, fact, and fact-based arguments do you no good, and I find myself at a bit of a loss. Religion is probably the least interesting topic to me outside of belly button lint. No, belly button lint is actually more scintillating. But here I am, confronted by it, and I find myself unprepared.

A big problem for me is my antipathy towards having to learn about Christianity. Blech. Just blech. I don't want to have to bone up on it in order to debate religious dogma with my six year old...but then again, she's starting to learn how to construct good legal arguments, and that's definitely my fault for encouraging...so perhaps this is karma :D

To combat this, I'm working on telling my girls more of the Wisagatcak (Cree trickster) tales, and creation stories. If they are going to delve deeply into fantasy, they might as well get it from as many sources as possible.

While you're at it, get them some books on Japanese mythology too. Fairly clean (when compared to your average Greek gods), but with enough violence to keep a six year old suitably entertained. Or just a big book on mythology in general. I got one for my cousin and apparently he loves it.

Pretend to be interested. Ask her questions. It IS actually funny to hear how some of these concepts get translated through her thought processes.

You see...God is a singer, that's why we all should stand up and sing.

Also, god made the whole planet, but Jesus made all the other planets.

perhaps this is more a social thing for her ?

maybe you found her some atheist friends to hang out with.

While you're at it, get them some books on Japanese mythology too. Fairly clean (when compared to your average Greek gods), but with enough violence to keep a six year old suitably entertained. Or just a big book on mythology in general. I got one for my cousin and apparently he loves it.

I have Bullfinches mythology...I just need to bone up on it and get to the story-telling I guess.

A big problem for me is my antipathy towards having to learn about Christianity. Blech. Just blech. I don't want to have to bone up on it in order to debate religious dogma with my six year old...but then again, she's starting to learn how to construct good legal arguments, and that's definitely my fault for encouraging...so perhaps this is karma :D

To combat this, I'm working on telling my girls more of the Wisagatcak (Cree trickster) tales, and creation stories. If they are going to delve deeply into fantasy, they might as well get it from as many sources as possible.

Just be careful you don't influence her with your distaste. You can make it clear that you don't believe in christianity, but teaching your little girl that christians are stupid old bastards is wrong on a great many levels, and WILL NOT be in her best interests. Bigotry and extremism exist in all worldviews and all cultures, and are a far more important thing to teach your kid to avoid than religion.

perhaps this is more a social thing for her ?

maybe you found her some atheist friends to hang out with.

Hahahaha, well her beloved tia is Catholic and is the one who has been taking her...but yes, she loves the singing, the dressing up, and the odd little rituals. Also, I gather that today she had some Sunday schooling.

I want my friend to smuggle her into the local mosque :D

Just be careful you don't influence her with your distaste. You can make it clear that you don't believe in christianity, but teaching your little girl that christians are stupid old bastards is wrong on a great many levels, and WILL NOT be in her best interests. Bigotry and extremism exist in all worldviews and all cultures, and are a far more important thing to teach your kid to avoid than religion.

This is the hardest part for me. I'm having to watch what I say when it comes to my comments about Christians...which, okay, fair enough perhaps I needed to anyway. I want to approach this with an open mind, but then again....I can't help but think...why should this little Christian creation story get any more respect than any other creation story out there? And yet it does, because people right now believe in it.

Most parents want their children to follow their beliefs.
I suppose.

In the case of most religious people, it isn't presented as an option...their beliefs are their children's beliefs, full stop...until the child is old enough to question that.
Maybe?

I'm not going to force my child to be an atheist...but I would have real difficulty understanding an actual choice, in the future, to become honestly religious.
Good, and I understand that.

I don't expect that this is going to happen right now, but it's something that is very much a possibility in the future. And since my nation is predominantly Christian, that is most likely the route she'd take.
Perhaps.

I don't want to make this forbidden fruit, nor do I want to stomp all over the beliefs of others...despite the way I feel about those beliefs, and reject them as anything I would adhere to.
Depending on the child that forbidden fruit thing may have the opposite effect you want, should you accidentally do just that.
Even Eve, the first woman and second human on Earth...fell to that temptation. Unless that was God's plan all along.. However when it comes to religion, fact, and fact-based arguments do you no good, and I find myself at a bit of a loss. Religion is probably the least interesting topic to me outside of belly button lint. No, belly button lint is actually more scintillating. But here I am, confronted by it, and I find myself unprepared.
That's just how I feel about writing literary criticisms.

My six year old is...enamoured of the Catholic church at the moment. She attended my niece's first communion and has been bitten by the Jesus bug. It doesn't help that churches tend to target children and make it all fun and games mixed in with a little 'God made the whole earth' and 'this is the Holy Trinity' blah blah blah.

Now...I'm an atheist. Any spirituality in this house comes from my First Nations background, and it decidedly anti-Catholic in particular. I am...concerned about her sudden interest in religious dogma, but I don't want to say horrid things about Christianity to her either.

So what does one do in a situation like this? At what age should children 'choose' their religion? Can I hope she'll grow out of it? Parents with experience in this area...please, help me draw my child back from the abyss...


If you are as open minded as you atheists love to parade your selves as, you will let her make up her own mind in time.

I think this is the big draw for her. In which case, I'm taking her on the powwow trail again this year, with her own regalia, and enrolling her in some of the dance competitions. We can outpomp Jesus anyday!

Yeah, just have her do fun spiritual stuff from your First Nations heritage. Mocking and castigating Christianity probably won't help and will just make her think you're mean.

Besides, she'll decide how she feels about spirituality on her own as she grows up anyway. There's really little you can do but be an example.

Hell, I'm technically a confirmed Catholic, but I identify as a pagan, and go to a Unitarian Universalist church.

Also, there are many sects of Christianity that she could be fascinated by that would be a lot more alarming than Catholicism...

When I have kids, I'll take them to Unitarian Universalist church. I'll try not to tell them that they can't believe certain things.

So, Catholics are cool...

http://blog.afi.com/100movies/user-uploads/post3244.jpg

Hahahaha, well her beloved tia is Catholic and is the one who has been taking her...but yes, she loves the singing, the dressing up, and the odd little rituals. Also, I gather that today she had some Sunday schooling.

I want my friend to smuggle her into the local mosque :D

well the mosque might be a bit much for her. they tend to be the We are right Christianity is wrong types. I would recommend a Hindu temple they have such a way of talking that makes everyone seem right.

well the mosque might be a bit much for her. they tend to be the We are right Christianity is wrong types. I would recommend a Hindu temple they have such a way of talking that makes everyone seem right.

Na, our mosque is not only beautiful, it is pretty full of moderate Muslims.

If you are as open minded as you atheists love to parade your selves as, you will let her make up her own mind in time.

Oh slag off. I don't parade myself as anything.

Yeah, just have her do fun spiritual stuff from your First Nations heritage.
Which is why summer is so important, since most of our spiritual activities occur on the land.

Mocking and castigating Christianity probably won't help and will just make her think you're mean. Okay fine, but I get to do it when she's asleep, okay?

This is the hardest part for me. I'm having to watch what I say when it comes to my comments about Christians...which, okay, fair enough perhaps I needed to anyway. I want to approach this with an open mind, but then again....I can't help but think...why should this little Christian creation story get any more respect than any other creation story out there? And yet it does, because people right now believe in it.

This is when you start in with "some people believe" or "some people used to think" and then you tell the creation myth or whatever, and then ask her "what do you think about that?". She will learn more when you ask questions than she will if you just shove things in her face. She has to figure out what she thinks, she probably already knows what you think.

If you are as open minded as you atheists love to parade your selves as, you will let her make up her own mind in time.

You sound a bit hostile.

I can't take hostile people seriously because I assume they aren't thinking clearly.

Na, our mosque is not only beautiful, it is pretty full of moderate Muslims.

my understanding is doctrine differences.
aka trinity, son of god, actually dieing on the cross instead of just looking like he died etc. that sort differences in doctrine forces soemone to make a choice which either way will not be atheist.


Hindu believe Jesus was the son of god and a reincarnation of Krishna, and tend agree with the beliefs of whoever is talking to them. and the Hindu's have their own trinity.

This is the hardest part for me. I'm having to watch what I say when it comes to my comments about Christians...which, okay, fair enough perhaps I needed to anyway. I want to approach this with an open mind, but then again....I can't help but think...why should this little Christian creation story get any more respect than any other creation story out there? And yet it does, because people right now believe in it.

Heh, honestly, you shouldnt be concerned about your daughter believing in the creation story. With an atheist parent, even if she does become a christian, she probably won't be a creationist. Evolution and christianity are entirely compatible, and one neednt exclude the other, and she's likely to try and reconcile the two if there is any conflict, and will probably be successful.

Not like my opinion is worth much, but I would say just teach her about all sorts of different religions, let her think on it, chew it over as she grows, and when she's older and knows all the different options, she can decide what position she wants to take on religion, if she decides to take one at all. I consider myself a Christian, but my dad has always been so badgering about it, that it almost made convert. I looked at different denomnations of Christianity, Judaism, and I even considered Buddhism before I decided I to identify myself as a Lutheran. Also, she's six years old, so this may be a phase unless she's incredibly mature for her age, which I wouldn't know, since I don't personally know you, but, yeah.

*throws 2 cents into ring*

Your daughter is obviously happy so you should let her be happy. There are far more worse things then her becoming christian. Let her have fun and don't be oppresive. And trying to throw her at other religions is just as bad (If not worse) then christianity. Just let her enjoy herself and she may become a better child because of it.

Which is why summer is so important, since most of our spiritual activities occur on the land.
Indeed, the pagan events (in this case, generalist and Celtic reconstructionist paganism) I've been to have all been outside.

I'm sure she'll be enthused about it, since it seems that like most kids, what she's attracted to about Catholicism is all the pomp and ceremony.

Okay fine, but I get to do it when she's asleep, okay?

All right, all right. I find that I need to talk to my friend who is Christian every now and then to remind myself that just because I disagree with the religion and am critical of many things that have been done in its name, doesn't mean that all Christians are terrible convert-or-die! types.

Not like my opinion is worth much, but I would say just teach her about all sorts of different religions, let her think on it, chew it over as she grows, and when she's older and knows all the different options, she can decide what position she wants to take on religion, if she decides to take one at all. I consider myself a Christian, but my dad has always been so badgering about it, that it almost made convert. I looked at different denomnations of Christianity, Judaism, and I even considered Buddhism before I decided I to identify myself as a Lutheran. Also, she's six years old, so this may be a phase unless she's incredibly mature for her age, which I wouldn't know, since I don't personally know you, but, yeah.

*throws 2 cents into ring*

My parents are christians, but I was fortunate enough to have a professor of epistomology as a father, and a very tolerant mother. I could have gone atheist and they would understand completely, and wouldnt begrudge me much for it (although other members of my family would be less tolerant). I think that this is the ideal environment for any child to be raised in, not necessarily christian, but very open, with an emphasis on developing your own conclusions. If only every child was so fortunate.

on the other hand...

while she is "studying" christianity watch out for fears and nightmares. kids can obsess over the idea of hell and eternal torment and become very frightened that she or family members might end up in the pit of fire. a 6 year old doesnt have any perspective on that kind of thing.

on the other hand...

while she is "studying" christianity watch out for fears and nightmares. kids can obsess over the idea of hell and eternal torment and become very frightened that she or family members might end up in the pit of fire. a 6 year old doesnt have any perspective on that kind of thing.

True, I don't think kids should have to deal with such worries, as all kids are essentially innocent. Then again, a kid asking "Mommy, what happens when we die?" and being told "Oh, you rot in the ground, dear." isnt a whole lot better. Moral of the story: Death is a bad thing for kids to be reflecting on. Period. If she does get worried about such things, what you should do is ask her the following question: "Do you think God would do that to people?". The probable answer will be "No", and that will last her until she can safely reach her own conclusions, and you are neither forcing her into an option, nor denying her one.

EDIT: To clarify, I don't believe in hell, myself, and I think such belief can only really be harmful, and isnt an essential part of any christian faith. But hey, that's just me.

My six year old is...enamoured of the Catholic church at the moment. She attended my niece's first communion and has been bitten by the Jesus bug. It doesn't help that churches tend to target children and make it all fun and games mixed in with a little 'God made the whole earth' and 'this is the Holy Trinity' blah blah blah.

Now...I'm an atheist. Any spirituality in this house comes from my First Nations background, and it decidedly anti-Catholic in particular. I am...concerned about her sudden interest in religious dogma, but I don't want to say horrid things about Christianity to her either.

So what does one do in a situation like this? At what age should children 'choose' their religion? Can I hope she'll grow out of it? Parents with experience in this area...please, help me draw my child back from the abyss...



Tell her the truth about the Church. Like how theyve tortured and killed millions of people, and are one of the foundations for a lot of the oppression and suffering going on in the world (especially when it comes to women).

"Grow" out of it? Thats not a fair statement, or feeling. If you are considering discouraging it, you would become the very fundementalist that you despise.

I'm not a parent... but why don't you just ride it out? Talk openly, and frankly with your child, while trying to remain unbiased (this should be their choice, remember, not yours, you've made yours, and should be satisfied with that).


Huh. I wonder if this would be the same advice youd give if someones 6 year old started telling their Christian parents they didnt believe in God.


I personally doubt it.

The trick for you as a parent is to let your kid be socialized by having fun with peers but not drink the religous kool aid that the church spits out. It would be no different if her play pals had parents who belonged to a 'political' organization and your daughter would come home saying "Mommy, why don't you support the working class?". Instead it would be a statement about Jesus or God. The problem is that your young daughter still lives in an imaginary world filled with fairy tales. I think you should try to walk a fine line with your daughter between playing and being indoctrinated.

Tell her the truth about the Church. Like how theyve tortured and killed millions of people, and are one of the foundations for a lot of the oppression and suffering going on in the world (especially when it comes to women).

Not all Catholics are evil torturers and genocidal maniacs.

Sounds very fundamentalist of you.

Not all Catholics are evil torturers and genocidal maniacs.

Sounds very fundamentalist of you.

Want to show me where I said that all catholics are evil torturers and fundimentalists? I recall only saying tell her the whole truth, including the history.


And if you want to deny that the Catholic Church is not reponsible at all for repression of women in certian countries, go ahead. Ill just laugh at your ignorance.



I love when Christians throw "fundamentalist" at their opponents as if just calling someone that makes it so, and makes them less of one.

Its rather....cute really.

all catholics are evil torturers and fundimentalists

AAAAGGH!!

*tosses holy water*

I was a devout christian as a child, even though neither of my parents were religious, but I left around 6th grade. I wouldn't worry about it.

True, I don't think kids should have to deal with such worries, as all kids are essentially innocent. Then again, a kid asking "Mommy, what happens when we die?" and being told "Oh, you rot in the ground, dear." isnt a whole lot better. Moral of the story: Death is a bad thing for kids to be reflecting on. Period. If she does get worried about such things, what you should do is ask her the following question: "Do you think God would do that to people?". The probable answer will be "No", and that will last her until she can safely reach her own conclusions, and you are neither forcing her into an option, nor denying her one.

EDIT: To clarify, I don't believe in hell, myself, and I think such belief can only really be harmful, and isnt an essential part of any christian faith. But hey, that's just me.

every parent must be prepared to answer that question eh?

Wow, thats not sounding very..... tolerant. Why should you worry about your daughter having a different religion than you?

While you're at it, get them some books on Japanese mythology too. Fairly clean (when compared to your average Greek gods), but with enough violence to keep a six year old suitably entertained.
Uh... Have you read the Shinto creation myths? Not the 'nice' ones, but the ones actually translated from the original sources?

Tell her the truth about the Church. Like how theyve tortured and killed millions of people, and are one of the foundations for a lot of the oppression and suffering going on in the world (especially when it comes to women).
Do you plan to tell the truth to your children as well?

Want to show me where I said that all catholics are evil torturers and fundimentalists? I recall only saying tell her the whole truth, including the history.


And if you want to deny that the Catholic Church is not reponsible at all for repression of women in certian countries, go ahead. Ill just laugh at your ignorance.



I love when Christians throw "fundamentalist" at their opponents as if just calling someone that makes it so, and makes them less of one.

Its rather....cute really.

No Christian is throwing the word "fundamentalist," around. I am, and I'm no Christian.

But what you suggest to me reeks of the same kind of things that a closed-minded fundamentalist parent would say to their children if they deviated from the biblical path. Scare tactics, because those work quite well with impressionable young children.

Besides, the kid is six. You would intentionally talk to a child of that age about torture and slaughter? I mean, if the kid was a teenager, yeah sure, I might even agree. But she isn't. Plus, why chance doing something to destroy her friendship with some Catholic girl? Why, when an open attitude with less emphasis on scaring the shit out of one's kid and making her think that her friend is evil would suffice?

I'm sorry, but I call them like I see them. If you don't want to be called a fundamentalist, don't act like one, and don't suggest doing the same style of thing that fundy parents would do.

Just because you're not a Christfag doesn't mean you can't be dogmatic and closed minded, I see.

Want to show me where I said that all catholics are evil torturers and fundimentalists? I recall only saying tell her the whole truth, including the history.
I agree wholeheartedly. As long as you don't try and use that as a guage of the integrity of christians in modern times. Christianity is not an inherently violent religion. The acts of past christians, while horrific, do not reflect on christians today, except in your own prejudice.


And if you want to deny that the Catholic Church is not reponsible at all for repression of women in certian countries, go ahead. Ill just laugh at your ignorance.


Not nearly as much as islam. Or chinese/japanese culture. That doesnt mean that muslims or chinese are all sexist. Particularly seeing as the christians who think women are inherently inferior BECAUSE of their faith are a VAST minority. I know thousands of christians, and I have never heard any of them say "god says women are inferior" or anything similar. I have never heard that view expressed in the hundreds of times I have gone to church, in multiple churces. You are shifting the true cause of the problem, namely human ignorance and culture, to better align with your preconceptions.

[/quote]

I love when Christians throw "fundamentalist" at their opponents as if just calling someone that makes it so, and makes them less of one.

Its rather....cute really.

I love it when antitheists throw ancient history at their opponents as if it actually had any bearing on the people today.

Its rather ignorant, really.

Do you plan to tell the truth to your children as well?

Yep. About anything related to history at least. I dont believe in sugar coating history.

No Christian is throwing the word "fundamentalist," around. I am, and I'm no Christian.

Good for you. You wan a medal?


But what you suggest to me reeks of the same kind of things that a closed-minded fundamentalist parent would say to their children if they deviated from the biblical path. Scare tactics, because those work quite well with impressionable young children.


The truth aint scare tactics.


Besides, the kid is six. You would intentionally talk to a child of that age about torture and slaughter? I mean, if the kid was a teenager, yeah sure, I might even agree. But she isn't.

I was told in detail about the holocaust when I was six. I lived.


Plus, why chance doing something to destroy her friendship with some Catholic girl? Why, when an open attitude with less emphasis on scaring the shit out of one's kid and making her think that her friend is evil would suffice?

No one is saying to tell her that her friend eats babies. Just tell her the truth about the catholic church. The whole truth.

I'm sorry, but I call them like I see them. If you don't want to be called a fundamentalist, don't act like one,

Whose acting like one? Im suggesting telling the truth. And few people who knew the truth before they were indoctrinated would choose to then become indoctrinated.

and don't suggest doing the same style of thing that fundy parents would do.

I dont recall suggesting we lie to the child and daemonize everything that disagrees with us. I recall saying we tell the truth to our children. If that truth sometimes sheds someone in an unfortunate light, boo-fucking-hoo.

Just because you're not a Christfag

Ah, now Im the intolerante one. I dont recall every using derogitory terms towards Christians, especially not one like "Christfag".

doesn't mean you can't be dogmatic and closed minded, I see.

Whos being dogmatic and close minded? Certianly not I.



Hey, if Neesika's kid wants to still be catholic after she hears the truth, great! However, the truth should be applied here to counter the influence the church has had. Shes drawn in by the pomp, ceremonies and fairy tales. Nothing wrong with throwing the truth in there to balance it out.


EDIT: By the way, Im still waiting for you to show me where I said all catholics were sociopathic genocidal murders. Or were you just full of shit and throwing words in my mouth to paint me as something Im not, because it was convenient to your arguement?

Want to show me where I said that all catholics are evil torturers and fundimentalists? I recall only saying tell her the whole truth, including the history.
You didnt. What you did do is associate christians today with the the evil torturers and fundamentalists. I support telling people the whole truth, as long as you don't try and use that as a guage of the integrity of christians in modern times. Christianity is not an inherently violent religion. The acts of past christians, while horrific, do not reflect on christians today, except in your own prejudice.


And if you want to deny that the Catholic Church is not reponsible at all for repression of women in certian countries, go ahead. Ill just laugh at your ignorance.


The christians who think women are inherently inferior BECAUSE of their faith are a VAST minority. I know thousands of christians, and I have never heard any of them say "god says women are inferior" or anything similar. I have never heard that view expressed in the hundreds of times I have gone to church, in multiple churches. You are shifting the true cause of the problem, namely human ignorance and culture, to better align with your argument.


I love when Christians throw "fundamentalist" at their opponents as if just calling someone that makes it so, and makes them less of one.

Its rather....cute really.

I love it when condescending antitheists display their blatant ignorance by using ancient history as an argument toward a modern belief that is, in fact, very far removed to the beliefs the crusaders and inquisitors held.

Don't sugar coat history, but don't propogandize it either. I don't like being compared to a rapist from several centuries ago because I believe evolution isnt the whole story. Funny that.

You didnt. What you did do is associate christians today with the the evil torturers and fundamentalists. I support telling people the whole truth, as long as you don't try and use that as a guage of the integrity of christians in modern times. Christianity is not an inherently violent religion. The acts of past christians, while horrific, do not reflect on christians today, except in your own prejudice.

Im pretty sure the Lords Liberation Army, the various Irish groups, etc are not ancient or Medieval organizations...

The christians who think women are inherently inferior BECAUSE of their faith are a VAST minority. I know thousands of christians, and I have never heard any of them say "god says women are inferior" or anything similar. I have never heard that view expressed in the hundreds of times I have gone to church, in multiple churches. You are shifting the true cause of the problem, namely human ignorance and culture, to better align with your argument.

While in First World Countries this isnt a problem, in many third world countries, particularlly in Latin and South America, women are treated as second class citizens, and Bishops and Cardinals have openly praised the laws that allow these things to happen. I know its shocking that there are civilizations outside the west, but...

Besides, you could look at the Church's official stance on things in the west from gay rights to toleration of Islam (I seem to recall the Pope saying Islam is an inherantly violent religion that is spread by the sword, as if Christianity wasnt, late last year) to see that theyre not this bastion of tolerance and love. Unless that tolerance and love is directed towards their pedophile priests that they spend millions of dollars protecting.

I had enormous respect for John Paul, but I still find the organization he was in charge of morally bankrupt.

I love it when condescending antitheists display their blatant ignorance by using ancient history as an argument toward a modern belief that is, in fact, very far removed to the beliefs the crusaders and inquisitors held.

Its not as far removed as you like to tell yourself.

Don't sugar coat history, but don't propogandize it either. I don't like being compared to a rapist from several centuries ago because I believe evolution isnt the whole story. Funny that.

This wouldnt make you a rapist, it would just make you scientifically ignorant and prone to belief in fairy tales. Morally, that is better. But it still doesnt make you anyones intellectual equal.

Most parents want their children to follow their beliefs. In the case of most religious people, it isn't presented as an option...their beliefs are their children's beliefs, full stop...until the child is old enough to question that.

I'm not going to force my child to be an atheist...but I would have real difficulty understanding an actual choice, in the future, to become honestly religious. I don't expect that this is going to happen right now, but it's something that is very much a possibility in the future. And since my nation is predominantly Christian, that is most likely the route she'd take.

I don't want to make this forbidden fruit, nor do I want to stomp all over the beliefs of others...despite the way I feel about those beliefs, and reject them as anything I would adhere to. However when it comes to religion, fact, and fact-based arguments do you no good, and I find myself at a bit of a loss. Religion is probably the least interesting topic to me outside of belly button lint. No, belly button lint is actually more scintillating. But here I am, confronted by it, and I find myself unprepared.

If she did later on in life say 20 years from now, and become a member of the Catholic Church or any other church for that matter. Would you love her any less for it? Does it really matter, most parents and their children will have different beliefs from religious to politics to sporting teams to best ice cream flavour. Most parents could never understand why they decided to make that particular choice and still manage to be in good relationships with their children.

If she wants to you might as well let here, at some point down the track she is going to make a decision on many topics and issues which you will disagree with and wont be able to get her to change unless of course you lock her in her room till she's 40, maybe that's the answer. :)

Im pretty sure the Lords Liberation Army, the various Irish groups, etc are not ancient or Medieval organizations...
And where exactly did QASM say s/he supported such horrid groups? I seem to remember you getting, quite rightly, agitated that some posters were tarring all Muslims with the same brush.

Hypocrite, much?

This wouldnt make you an rapist, it would just make you scientifically ignorant and prone to belief in fairy tales.
Funny, I don't remember evolution explaining every single phenomena in the known universe...

This is a tough one.

In general, I tend to lean towards the "expose your child to lots of different beliefs" camp in order to inform an open mind.

On the other hand, she's only 6. I don't have much experience with kids, but what I've seen of kids that young (and what I remember of being that young), is that their interests tend to run hot and shallow. They can get completely caught up in something to the point where you wonder what alien mind took over your little one's body, and then suddenly, one day, it's like "Pope who?", and it's all over and you're behind the times again.

Also, just because she's interested in Catholicism, it doesn't mean she'll be interested in other religions, too.

On the third hand, 6-year-olds are ripe for early indoctrination, and many churches -- especially the Catholic church -- just love to get their hooks into young brains.

Personally, if I were in your position, I would let her have her little Catholic fling, but I would make sure that it is clear that this is not your religion, that you have a different belief, and that your cultural heritage has different beliefs as well. If you value those other beliefs, I would make sure she knows that and has unrestricted access to those beliefs.

I would also buy her mythology books in versions appropriate for her age. Lots of myths from lots of sources. And treat them the same as the Catholic Bible stories since, for you, they are the same. Remember, you're the one raising her, so I see no reason for you to have to raise her to someone else's standards and pretend your opinion of the Catholic stories is any different from what it is. She is perfectly capable of growing up to disagree with you, if she wants.

However, I think you should be ADAMANT about limiting her participation in Catholic religious rituals. Under no circumstances should you let her attend any religious instruction from the church, even if her little friends are going to Catechism School (or whatever). It is NOT your religion, and you ARE her parent. You get to make that decision for a 6-year-old, not some priest.

I would take that stance because I am strictly opposed to the religious indoctrination of children.

Yep. About anything related to history at least. I dont believe in sugar coating history.
Good, then you are going to tell your child about all the large humanitarian, cultural, scientific, and other advances the Church has made as well as how atheists have tortured, mutilated, and killed theists in the name of removing the fairy tales?

And where exactly did QASM say s/he supported such horrid groups? I seem to remember you getting, quite rightly, agitated that some posters were tarring all Muslims with the same brush.

Hypocrite, much?


Show me where I accused him of such support. I was merely pointing out that violent Christian groups arent exclusive to the past.

Funny, I don't remember evolution explaining every single phenomena in the known universe...


No one says it does.

Good, then you are going to tell your child about all the large humanitarian, cultural, scientific, and other advances the Church has made as well as how atheists have tortured, mutilated, and killed theists in the name of removing the fair tales?

Of course. Ill be more then happy to tell my kids about all the great things the church has done, like how the civil rights movement was birthed there, as well as how attempting to whipe someone out for their belief is never a good thing (such as in Soviet Russia).


I like how I get critical of the Catholic Church and its instantly assumed that I think all Christians are sociopaths and all athiests are morally superior beings, and that I intend to teach my children such.


People here either really lack reading comprehension, are intoxicated in some way, or are just looking to pick a fight.


Seriously, stop putting words in my mouth because its convenient to your arguement and because someone being critical of a certian institution hurt your feelings.

Show me where I accused him of such support. I was merely pointing out that violent Christian groups are exclusive to the past.
While heavily implying, with intention or not, that this reflected badly on QASM.

No one says it does.
Then why call QASM "scientifically ignorant"?

Rather than complaining about reading comprehension, perhaps one should word one's posts more carefully?

Good for you. You wan a medal?
Yeah, real funny



The truth aint scare tactics.
When you're panicking just because she went to a Catholic mass and you're basically just trying to make her hate Catholicism, they are



I was told in detail about the holocaust when I was six. I lived.
No one denies that the Nazis are evil. Her friend she would associate as a part of this organization that killed all these people. I wouldn't want my daughter telling every Catholic she met that they were an evil murderer.



No one is saying to tell her that her friend eats babies. Just tell her the truth about the catholic church. The whole truth.
You clearly know nothing about small children. Things are often much more black and white to them than to older minds.



Whose acting like one? Im suggesting telling the truth. And few people who knew the truth before they were indoctrinated would choose to then become indoctrinated.
You're suggesting being an irresponsible parent who acts like it's the most horrible thing in the world that a kid is hanging out with a catholic friend and thinking that Catholic imagery is interesting when they're six is going to brainwash them into being some sheep for life, hanging on the Pope's every word. Get a fucking grip. Most of the lifelong Catholics I know freely disagree with the pope.

It's pretty much the same as if some fundamentalist Christian parent was horrified that their daughter was hanging out with a pagan/buddhist/hindu/whatever friend and went to a non-Christian religious ceremony. That sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? It sounds like they would be overreacting if they tried to scare their child by telling them all the horrible things done by people who had the same religion as their daughter's friend, and telling them none of the good.

I dont recall suggesting we lie to the child and daemonize everything that disagrees with us. I recall saying we tell the truth to our children. If that truth sometimes sheds someone in an unfortunate light, boo-fucking-hoo.
When you tell only part of the truth, then yes you are demonizing something just because it disagrees with you. When you scare a child away from Catholicism just because it bothers you, you're doing the same thing as if you told your child the "truth" about Islam by talking about the terrorism perpetrated by religious extremists, or if you told them the "truth" about paganism by citing Julius Caesar's accounts of human sacrifice, or you told them the "truth" about any other religion by concentrating on the terrible things done in the name of it, but never noting the positive contributions of any of its adherents.



Ah, now Im the intolerante one. I dont recall every using derogitory terms towards Christians, especially not one like "Christfag".
Oh come now. You have this obviously anti-Christian mindset, and you complain about me using /b/'s term for Christians. Please.



Whos being dogmatic and close minded? Certianly not I.
No, you are. I'm sticking up for a religion I don't even like, because I dislike scaring the shit out of Children and religious intolerance more than I dislike Christianity.



Hey, if Neesika's kid wants to still be catholic after she hears the truth, great! However, the truth should be applied here to counter the influence the church has had. Shes drawn in by the pomp, ceremonies and fairy tales. Nothing wrong with throwing the truth in there to balance it out.
I see no reason to poison her friendship with negativity, when positive illustration of something that Neesika would rather her be part of would do just as well.


EDIT: By the way, Im still waiting for you to show me where I said all catholics were sociopathic genocidal murders. Or were you just full of shit and throwing words in my mouth to paint me as something Im not, because it was convenient to your arguement?

You clearly have no idea how kids' minds work, apparently. By telling about how the Catholic church historically did all these horrible things, anyone associated with that, becomes, in a child's mind, part of it, unless the kid is extremely mature for her age. There's a pretty high chance that she'll assume that her friend is not aware of all this, likely causing either an argument with the friend or the friend's parents, or that she is aware of these things and okay with them, which might make the child wonder about whether her friend is a good person. Young children view the world in simple terms and how one could be a member of a religion whose members in the past have done terrible things yet still be a good person could be beyond her, unless she is quite mature for her age.

It's probably not worth arguing with someone who doesn't accept that children have a harder time understanding complex issues than adolescents or adults do, so I might be wasting my time. Oh well.

While heavily implying, with intention or not, that this reflected badly on QASM.

There is only implications of such for the paranoid/delusional who wish to see it.

Him and anyone else can drop their persecution complexes, because I wont cater to them.


Then why call QASM "scientifically ignorant"?

Because, the way I read his statement, he is.

Rather than complaining about reading comprehension, perhaps one should word one's posts more carefully?

Why? Its perfectly clear what I am saying. As I said, Im not catering to someones persecution complex.

Of course. Ill be more then happy to tell my kids about all the great things the church has done, like how the civil rights movement was birthed there, as well as how attempting to whipe someone out for their belief is never a good thing (such as in Soviet Russia).


I like how I get critical of the Catholic Church and its instantly assumed that I think all Christians are sociopaths and all athiests are morally superior beings, and that I intend to teach my children such.


People here either really lack reading comprehension, are intoxicated in some way, or are just looking to pick a fight.


Seriously, stop putting words in my mouth because its convenient to your arguement and because someone being critical of a certian institution hurt your feelings.

But what does history have to do with anything really?
Shouldn't a person chose their religion based on their beliefs about the existance/nature of god(s).

Huh. I wonder if this would be the same advice youd give if someones 6 year old started telling their Christian parents they didnt believe in God.


I personally doubt it.

Why wouldn't it be? Now I know some parents wouldn't do that but that might still be the advice he/she would give.

Want to show me where I said that all catholics are evil torturers and fundimentalists? I recall only saying tell her the whole truth, including the history.

To be fair Neeskia was talking about the Catholic Church, and you did mention the church.

And if you want to deny that the Catholic Church is not reponsible at all for repression of women in certian countries, go ahead. Ill just laugh at your ignorance.

Just for my own knowledge and interest which countries are these?

The more I read of this thread, the more vehement I get in my opinion that children should stay out of religion. I think it is terrible to expose children to any environment or context in which grown-ups get so hostile so readily. It is upsetting to little kids to see adults lose their cool like that.

Maybe Neesika could take this time and learn from her child. The faith of a child is superior to the well thought out logic of Adults. This can be proven pretty easily.

Show me where I accused him of such support. I was merely pointing out that violent Christian groups are exclusive to the past.

But doesn't that prove his point

Maybe Neesika could take this time and learn from her child. The faith of a child is superior to the well thought out logic of Adults. This can be proven pretty easily.

Well, some adults, certainly. *looks at rest of thread*

The faith of a child is superior to the well thought out logic of Adults. This can be proven pretty easily.
Eh?

Of course. Ill be more then happy to tell my kids about all the great things the church has done, like how the civil rights movement was birthed there, as well as how attempting to whipe someone out for their belief is never a good thing (such as in Soviet Russia).


I like how I get critical of the Catholic Church and its instantly assumed that I think all Christians are sociopaths and all athiests are morally superior beings, and that I intend to teach my children such.


People here either really lack reading comprehension, are intoxicated in some way, or are just looking to pick a fight.


Seriously, stop putting words in my mouth because its convenient to your arguement and because someone being critical of a certian institution hurt your feelings.
Gee... if ya act like a troll in every. single. damn. religious. thread. and threads that have NOTHING to do about religion; perhaps, just perhaps, you shouldn't be surprised at others reactions.

While you're not quite at UB's standard, you do not pass up any attempt to attack religion and the religious. Acting upon that knowledge, what do you think people would read into your statement?

Yeah, real funny

I thought so.


When you're panicking just because she went to a Catholic mass and you're basically just trying to make her hate Catholicism, they are

Whos panicking? Neesika asked what she could do, I gave my opinion.


No one denies that the Nazis are evil. Her friend she would associate as a part of this organization that killed all these people. I wouldn't want my daughter telling every Catholic she met that they were an evil murderer.

This is irrelevent to the point I was addressing. You said "OMG U CANTZ TELL TEH KIDS ABOUT VIOLENCE!!!!" I disagreed. But while we are on the topic...


You clearly know nothing about small children. Things are often much more black and white to them than to older minds.

You clearly do not give children enough credit. It is not hard to teach them that the actions of one person do not reflect upon the actions of everyone. Otherwise all white children would be self loathing when they learned about slavery. Guess what? They arent.


You're suggesting being an irresponsible parent who acts like it's the most horrible thing in the world that a kid is hanging out with a catholic friend and thinking that Catholic imagery is interesting when they're six is going to brainwash them into being some sheep for life, hanging on the Pope's every word.

Not what Im suggesting at all. Im suggesting that if she is really interested in the church, she gets the whole story.

Get a fucking grip. Most of the lifelong Catholics I know freely disagree with the pope.

Holy crap I didnt know that! Is water wet too?

It's pretty much the same as if some fundamentalist Christian parent was horrified that their daughter was hanging out with a pagan/buddhist/hindu/whatever friend and went to a non-Christian religious ceremony. That sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? It sounds like they would be overreacting if they tried to scare their child by telling them all the horrible things done by people who had the same religion as their daughter's friend, and telling them none of the good.

You seem to have this belief that I intend to nazi-style brainwash kids that all catholics are out to eath their babies. Im not. As I said earlier, kids are capable of learning that a groups actions are not the actions of every individual. See my slavery comment.


When you tell only part of the truth, then yes you are demonizing something just because it disagrees with you. When you scare a child away from Catholicism just because it bothers you, you're doing the same thing as if you told your child the "truth" about Islam by talking about the terrorism perpetrated by religious extremists, or if you told them the "truth" about paganism by citing Julius Caesar's accounts of human sacrifice, or you told them the "truth" about any other religion by concentrating on the terrible things done in the name of it, but never noting the positive contributions of any of its adherents.

No one says we should tell part of the truth. Tell them the whole truth. Like about the cult of the virgin marry that exalted women.


Oh come now. You have this obviously anti-Christian mindset, and you complain about me using /b/'s term for Christians. Please.


I have an anti-Catholic Church mindset. I have yet to blanket statement insult Christians. I have yet to give them any derogitory term.


No, you are. I'm sticking up for a religion I don't even like, because I dislike scaring the shit out of Children and religious intolerance more than I dislike Christianity.

This isnt religious intolerance, this is disliking a very specific institution.


I see no reason to poison her friendship with negativity, when positive illustration of something that Neesika would rather her be part of would do just as well.

Nor do I.


You clearly have no idea how kids' minds work, apparently. By telling about how the Catholic church historically did all these horrible things, anyone associated with that, becomes, in a child's mind, part of it, unless the kid is extremely mature for her age. There's a pretty high chance that she'll assume that her friend is not aware of all this, likely causing either an argument with the friend or the friend's parents, or that she is aware of these things and okay with them, which might make the child wonder about whether her friend is a good person. Young children view the world in simple terms and how one could be a member of a religion whose members in the past have done terrible things yet still be a good person could be beyond her, unless she is quite mature for her age.

See my above comment about the lack of credit you give children, their ability to disassociate what their white ancestors did yo black people, etc.

It's probably not worth arguing with someone who doesn't accept that children have a harder time understanding complex issues than adolescents or adults do, so I might be wasting my time. Oh well.

:rolleyes:

The more I read of this thread, the more vehement I get in my opinion that children should stay out of religion. I think it is terrible to expose children to any environment or context in which grown-ups get so hostile so readily. It is upsetting to little kids to see adults lose their cool like that.
Given that usually people of different religious/non/other views don't all gather into the same church to have a screaming match, I THINK the kid's pretty safe. :D

Honestly though, I wouldn't be too worried. When I was six, a friend to me to his Mormon church for a bit, I didn't end up as a Mormon and mostly just remember the snacks. ;)

But doesn't that prove his point

It was a type o. It was supposed to say arent. It has been fixed.

You clearly do not give children enough credit. It is not hard to teach them that the actions of one person do not reflect upon the actions of everyone. Otherwise all white children would be self loathing when they learned about slavery. Guess what? They arent.

I am sure there are plenty of Black people who still hate Whites when they learnt about slavery, not to mention the hatred towards those people in the south.

Im pretty sure the Lords Liberation Army, the various Irish groups, etc are not ancient or Medieval organizations...

I'm pretty sure that I and noone I know condone their actions, or that any part of the christian faith says "Kill those who disagree with your worldview".


While in First World Countries this isnt a problem, in many third world countries, particularlly in Latin and South America, women are treated as second class citizens, and Bishops and Cardinals have openly praised the laws that allow these things to happen. I know its shocking that there are civilizations outside the west, but...
I know its shocking, but the acts of those cardinals actually DON'T make me any less convinced that they are sexists assholes, or any more convinced that are in fact practicing the true will of the lord almighty! People are easily mislead. There are over a billion people who claim to be christian. Theres a lot of assholes in that number, and assholes can attract followers.


Its not as far removed as you like to tell yourself.
Its not as close as you like to tell yourself.


This wouldnt make you an rapist, it would just make you scientifically ignorant and prone to belief in fairy tales. Morally, that is better. But it still doesnt make you anyones intellectual equal.

It doesnt make me anyones intellectual equal, no, seeing as my beliefs have nothing to do with my intellect. Your belief that there isnt a god (as I have gathered, though I could be wrong) in no way makes you superior to me, or anyone else, because ultimately we cannot prove either way who is right. Of course, those who claim that they are, in fact right about their unprovable beliefs, people much like yourself, in fact, are another matter.

I believe in evolution. It happens. It is observable and measurable. God is not. Does this mean you are correct, and there is no god? How should I, or you know? God isnt observable or measurable.

I know you don't intend to claim that all christians are ignorant, evil bastards. However, your posts drip with arrogance and condescention, intentional or not. It doesnt help that you assume i'm a scientific ignoramus because i'm a christian. I never once stated ANYTHING about my scientific beliefs, other than that evolution isnt the whole story. HOW does this make me ignorant? HOW ON EARTH do you reach the conclusion that claiming we don't know everything with no doubt, about how life forms on this earth makes me any less intelligent than you? I'm interested to hear your response.

Gee... if ya act like a troll in every. single. damn. religious. thread. and threads that have NOTHING to do about religion; perhaps, just perhaps, you shouldn't be surprised at others reactions.

Oh my.

Lets get one thing straight. I dont troll in religious threads. I state my fucking opinion. And my opinion I guess hurts peoples feelings. Thats not trolling. Thats called stating my opinion on a debate forum.

And I dont go into totally unrelated threads and start trolling about religion. Religion only comes up if its mentioned in a prior comment.

While you're not quite at UB's standard, you do not pass up any attempt to attack religion and the religious.

I actually pass them up regularlly.

Acting upon that knowledge, what do you think people would read into your statement?

I cant be held responsible if people see what they want to see as opposed to whats there.


If you wish to continue personal attacks, be my guest. Or have I satisfied your curiosity?


I cant help it if people cant tell the difference between the Catholic Church and its followers. Im sorry I assume that everyone here as the level of maturity and reading comprehension to be able to do so.

Given that usually people of different religious/non/other views don't all gather into the same church to have a screaming match, I THINK the kid's pretty safe. :D
I have more faith in gods than I have in people's manners. *is bitter* ;)

Honestly though, I wouldn't be too worried. When I was six, a friend to me to his Mormon church for a bit, I didn't end up as a Mormon and mostly just remember the snacks. ;)
Oh, I'm not worried at all. It's not my kid. :p

It's just that, as a general principle, I'm opposed to indoctrinating children into any kind of religion because I think the concepts are too complex for their 6-year-old brains. That doesn't mean I think kids should never go to church, but to my mind there is a difference between attending holiday observances and preparing for communion or otherwise actually joining the organization and swearing oaths to its god, etc.

This is why my opinion on the OP included the part about letting Neesika Jr have her Catholic crush, but not letting that include things like Sunday School or Catechism training -- because that would be letting another adult teach religion to her child. I would not do that, if I were the parent.

Maybe Neesika could take this time and learn from her child. The faith of a child is superior to the well thought out logic of Adults. This can be proven pretty easily.

All right. Im awaiting the easy proof for this woefully idiotic statement.

So, unless anyone else wants to shove some more words down my throat, I have a pack of cigarettes, a few Lowenbraus, "Planet Terror" and my fiance waiting for me upstairs.


So, unless anyone has any final comments, Ill be on tomorrow to address whatever is said in my absense.

Night.

Of course. Ill be more then happy to tell my kids about all the great things the church has done, like how the civil rights movement was birthed there, as well as how attempting to whipe someone out for their belief is never a good thing (such as in Soviet Russia).

In Soviet Russia, your beliefs wipe YOU out!

It's just that, as a general principle, I'm opposed to indoctrinating children into any kind of religion because I think the concepts are too complex for their 6-year-old brains. That doesn't mean I think kids should never go to church, but to my mind there is a difference between attending holiday observances and preparing for communion or otherwise actually joining the organization and swearing oaths to its god, etc.
I personally agree that children should not join a church or be baptized or other membership rituals until old enough.

This is why my opinion on the OP included the part about letting Neesika Jr have her Catholic crush, but not letting that include things like Sunday School or Catechism training -- because that would be letting another adult teach religion to her child. I would not do that, if I were the parent.
Well... Sunday school isn't all that impressive. At age 6, it's mainly play and singing songs.

To Knights of Liberty (quotes arent working for some reason)

It doesnt make me anyones intellectual equal, no, seeing as my beliefs have nothing to do with my intellect. Your belief that there isnt a god (as I have gathered, though I could be wrong) in no way makes you superior to me, or anyone else, because ultimately we cannot prove either way who is right. Of course, those who claim that they are, in fact right about their unprovable beliefs, people much like yourself, in fact, are another matter.

I believe in evolution. It happens. It is observable and measurable. God is not. Does this mean you are correct, and there is no god? How should I, or you know? God isnt observable or measurable.

I know you don't intend to claim that all christians are ignorant, evil bastards. However, your posts drip with arrogance and condescention, intentional or not. It doesnt help that you assume i'm a scientific ignoramus because i'm a christian. I never once stated ANYTHING about my scientific beliefs, other than that evolution isnt the whole story. HOW does this make me ignorant? HOW ON EARTH do you reach the conclusion that claiming we don't know everything with no doubt, about how life forms on this earth makes me any less intelligent than you?

Honestly, I think i'll take the same route as you and stop this argument here, not least because we have hijacked poor Neesika's thread with it. I, for one, apologize for any inconvenience this fiasco has caused. I usually try to avoid these arguments because nobody ever wins them, and everybody loses. But I have never been good at taking flak for the misdeeds of others, intentional or not. I suggest everybody get back on the original topic, which is: What should Neesika do?

So, unless anyone else wants to shove some more words down my throat, I have a pack of cigarettes, a few Lowenbraus, "Planet Terror" and my fiance waiting for me upstairs.


So, unless anyone has any final comments, Ill be on tomorrow to address whatever is said in my absense.

Night.

Three out of four aint bad (I am talking about Planet Terror, but surely you can get something better than Lowenbrau maybe Sparten).

Mate, you have your fiance waiting for you upstairs, what the fuck are you doing on these forums, get up there now.

All right. Im awaiting the easy proof for this woefully idiotic statement.


Well thought out logic= Iraq war.. It was well thought out on paper(shock and awe, deceive everyone into believing its for democracy, etc). In practice its shit, right?

Now, for the faith of a child. Children believe the impossible. They believe in things that cannot happen, according to our "learned" minds. Sharing, being nice to everyone, and so on. What do adult minds believe in? We believe that we need to have the best 9-5 to be happy. We need cars, jewelry, a nice family, etc to have a good life. What do children need? Just their imagination. They find joy in the simple things. That is why Jesus said we needed faith like children. Like Yoda said, we must unlearn what we have learned. Why? Because its obvious that this complex world that adults have made is not getting any better, is it? It seems to be getting worse all the time. Instead, we need to embrace the faith we had as children. The thoughts that people find impossible, like doing what we put our minds to, or having peace and well being with others.

Three out of four aint bad (I am talking about Planet Terror, but surely you can get something better than Lowenbrau maybe Sparten).

Mate, you have your fiance waiting for you upstairs, what the fuck are you doing on these forums, get up there now.

Seriously, if I had my fiance waiting for me upstairs, no way would I be wasting time arguing on a forum where nobody's opinion will ever be changed anyway.

Personally, children should be able to choose their own religion when they're competent enough to understand everything about said religion.

As an example, if they can't understand that the Catholic Church is full of hypocrisy, lies, and half-truths and that its history is full of rape, murder, and torture in the name of their all-loving God then they aren't ready.

Sadly, that means that many adults aren't competent enough to choose their own religion.

As for the issues regarding hellfire, damnation, and nightmares you could just try telling any child that suffers from this the truth. Hell, as a place of punishment for the damned, did not enter the Christian faith until the third century AD. Up until then all the dead when to Sheol/purgatory, sinners and saints alike.

Oh, yeah, and a couple don'ts. Don't point out to your daughter that the communion ritual has distinct vampiric/cannabilistic implications. That might give her nightmares.

If you are as open minded as you atheists love to parade your selves as, you will let her make up her own mind in time.

That sounds like a particularly narrow-minded response.

Not all Catholics are evil torturers and genocidal maniacs.

Sounds very fundamentalist of you.

While this wasn't aimed at me I do have to comment.

Not all Catholics/Christians are evil, torturing, genocidal maniacs, you're absolutely right, but many of them are fearful sheep.

If it weren't for the sheep in the church then the Christian/Catholic church wouldn't be responsible for hundreds of millions of dead humans and nearly a millenia of scientific stagnation.

We've only within the last 100-200 years regained some of the skills and sciences that they had in Rome before the collapse and the sacking of Alexandria. They were doing brain surgery and nearly had working steam engines that far back.

If it weren't for "the church" repressing science, putting "the fear of God" into people, starting wars, and letting thousands to millions of people die because they are stifling the creativity needed to cure disease and create medicine we'd likely be significantly farther along than we are today.

Furthermore, "the church" is, in my opinon, one of the most significant reasons why the world is still immersed deeply in a social dark age.

Wow, thats not sounding very..... tolerant. Why should you worry about your daughter having a different religion than you?

Um, maybe it's worry about screwing up his daughter over a conflict between his beliefs and her budding interests?

I dunno about you but that seems way more tolerant than just arbitrarily deciding to stamp down on her interest in Catholocism the same way a small boy would an anthill.

I love it when antitheists throw ancient history at their opponents as if it actually had any bearing on the people today.

Its rather ignorant, really.

Your statement is what's ignorant as you are completely ignoring, or completely unaware of the fact, that ancient history does have a bearing on modern people.

Case in point, because of the destruction of Alexandria when the Roman empire fell people think that brain surgery is a modern invention.

Because a Christian priest, for whatever reason, decided to claim that there was a place after death where sinners were tortured people believe that Hell not only exists but was a part of their faith from its inception.

In or out of religion history has a bearing on how people think and act.

But what does history have to do with anything really?
Shouldn't a person chose their religion based on their beliefs about the existance/nature of god(s).

Let me ask you this. Should you check out a construction company to verify its history, how people liked their work, how much post-construction maintenance was required, and so on before you hire them?

How about a private school? If a school has a noticeable trend to hire questionable staff or to pander to "old money" parents then wouldn't that be something to consider before sending your child there?

History matters.

The more I read of this thread, the more vehement I get in my opinion that children should stay out of religion. I think it is terrible to expose children to any environment or context in which grown-ups get so hostile so readily. It is upsetting to little kids to see adults lose their cool like that.

Honestly, I agree.
___________________________________________

Now, I'll be honest. I don't like most religions that I know much about. There's just so much wrong with a lot of them that I tend to consider most religious people I meet to be somewhat lacking in the brain department somewhere. Sadly, more often than not my belief is upheld by the people I meet.

This is not, however, to say that I have a problem with the various faiths. I place a firm distinction between religion and spirituality and I've found that on average a spiritual person is much more in tune with their faith and much more intelligent than an otherwise comparable religious person. They're also, on average, significantly more accepting of outside views and more willing to learn about their faith and others' faiths than religious people are.

I'm sure there are decent religious types out there, the world's too vast and too full of variety for it to be otherwise, but I simply haven't met many of them.

These statements, much like the bickering that's gone on in the thread, has no real point to the topic at hand but I figured since everyone else was going so significantly off-topic I would as well, at the least to attempt to make my views/thoughs/opinions a little more comprehensible since, sadly, many people seem to have problems understanding them. Not a slam against anyone on these boards, just a statement of fact.

Can't be asked to read through the whole thread, so I don't know if this has been said already but:

Would you let you parents tell you about what religion you should have? Just let the kid go around believing what she wants, don't discourage her (because she'll get into the martyr mindset from which you'll never get her out), and don't for the love of all things good encourage her (the last thing you want is for her to believe she's right because she thinks you agree with her views).

If she ever starts preaching to you slap her silly, but don't preach to her, so you can have the moral justification for that. Otherwise just let her do her own thing.

....If she ever starts preaching to you slap her silly.....
Please, please don't slap a 6 year old.

Please, please don't slap a 6 year old.

It's called negative reinforcement, and I did not mean she should maim her or anything... Jeeez

It's called negative reinforcement, and I did not mean she should maim her or anything... Jeeez

She can verbal rebuke her if need be. It would be silly to slap a child for something like that. Besides, a verbal warning should always be used first, regardless of the situation but especially something like that.

Maybe Neesika could take this time and learn from her child. The faith of a child is superior to the well thought out logic of Adults. This can be proven pretty easily.

*roflmao*

*wipes tear out of the corner of her eye*

Ooooh, that was a good one, that was...

Personally, children should be able to choose their own religion when they're competent enough to understand everything about said religion.

As an example, if they can't understand that the Catholic Church is full of hypocrisy, lies, and half-truths and that its history is full of rape, murder, and torture in the name of their all-loving God then they aren't ready.

Sadly, that means that many adults aren't competent enough to choose their own religion.

And if you do understand it put still choose to be a member of that truth knowing that their history wasn't always God. Put still wish to follow the original teachings then does that mean they are competent?

Now I am sure that are people who may not know all about it, including those who have read up about it but it has had serve bias in it, and that goes for "histories" on both side fence. I myself have read and heard the history on both sides the main thing is that both sides leave important things out. But just because you know that in the past elements have not acted correctly doesn't mean you should necessarily denounce all of it


We've only within the last 100-200 years regained some of the skills and sciences that they had in Rome before the collapse and the sacking of Alexandria. They were doing brain surgery and nearly had working steam engines that far back.

Got some credible proof to back that up? The main reason is to read about it myself, I have heard something on Brain surgey but it was more the fact that they just cut open the head and picked out a part because they believed it was the root of the problem, when we now know that it wasn't.

Furthermore, "the church" is, in my opinon, one of the most significant reasons why the world is still immersed deeply in a social dark age.

Only in America, which isn't really because of the Church yes they have some influence but in my opinion it is more the Evangelicals than the Catholics, hell look at the controversy over JFK

Well thought out logic= Iraq war.. It was well thought out on paper(shock and awe, deceive everyone into believing its for democracy, etc). In practice its shit, right?

Now, for the faith of a child. Children believe the impossible. They believe in things that cannot happen, according to our "learned" minds. Sharing, being nice to everyone, and so on. What do adult minds believe in? We believe that we need to have the best 9-5 to be happy. We need cars, jewelry, a nice family, etc to have a good life. What do children need? Just their imagination. They find joy in the simple things. That is why Jesus said we needed faith like children. Like Yoda said, we must unlearn what we have learned. Why? Because its obvious that this complex world that adults have made is not getting any better, is it? It seems to be getting worse all the time. Instead, we need to embrace the faith we had as children. The thoughts that people find impossible, like doing what we put our minds to, or having peace and well being with others.


*lol

You've never spent any significant amout of time around children, have you?
They are the most materialistic bastards you can imagine. It's growing up that teaches them about love, sharing, and being nice to people they don't like without expecting candy or money for it.

My personal view is let her go, answer any questions she may have as honestly as possible and expose her to varying viewpoints (as has previously been suggested, books of mythology are always a good start).

As a personal experience (and yes this is relevant), I grew up with atheist parents but went to an Anglican Sunday school for a while (a year at most) when I was 6 with a friend because I liked the social side and the stories. At school I attended Protestant religion class (the Belgian school system is such that you choose Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim or 'morale' for RE, I went to Protestant because all my english-speaking friends did) where I learnt a lot about the religion and it's history (the protestant reformation etc). My parents also exposed me to a variety of beliefs and I've always loved history and mythology and read a lot about them. I decided to give Christianity another go when I was 12 and decided it wasn't for me (although I attended for a while after that because I loved singing in the church choir). Eventually I found that neo-paganism was probably the best fit for me, although I'd say I'm probably border-line agnostic.

So I'd say as long as you exposed her to a variety of beliefs she's probably not in danger of becoming any sort of fundamentalist or hard-line christian. Think of it as another learning experiance for her and as long as she has exposure to other alternatives I think it will in the long-run good for her when she's older and wishes to develop her own beliefs/path, whatever they may be.

I can't see how telling children about Santa Claus and telling them about Jesus is any different, your still building a really nice fantasy only to later brutally tear it down in front of them, only difference being that most children stop believing in Santa pretty young, while there's actually full-grown adults around who STILL believe in Jesus (if you can believe it, lol):p...

To the OP: do you believe that indoctrinating young children into a religion is about as damaging to them as e.g. rape would be ?

In that case - just stop seeing the filth that would do such a thing to their own offspring.

My six year old is...enamoured of the Catholic church at the moment. She attended my niece's first communion and has been bitten by the Jesus bug. It doesn't help that churches tend to target children and make it all fun and games mixed in with a little 'God made the whole earth' and 'this is the Holy Trinity' blah blah blah.

Now...I'm an atheist. Any spirituality in this house comes from my First Nations background, and it decidedly anti-Catholic in particular. I am...concerned about her sudden interest in religious dogma, but I don't want to say horrid things about Christianity to her either.

So what does one do in a situation like this? At what age should children 'choose' their religion? Can I hope she'll grow out of it? Parents with experience in this area...please, help me draw my child back from the abyss...

Here is an idea: don't enlist the advice of people on an internet chat board when it comes to raising your child. Many of these morons don't have any moral compass what so ever and even more have no idea what it takes to raise a child.

Also, considering that you have members of your family who are Catholics you also might ask yourself if those Catholics are as evil or deluded as you believe. If you are an atheist then that is a scary place for a child. If you are of the First Nations then perhaps you should be teaching her the spirituality of your people.

This comes from a atheist father of three who cares little for parenting advice from strangers.

My six year old is...enamoured of the Catholic church at the moment. She attended my niece's first communion and has been bitten by the Jesus bug. It doesn't help that churches tend to target children and make it all fun and games mixed in with a little 'God made the whole earth' and 'this is the Holy Trinity' blah blah blah.

Now...I'm an atheist. Any spirituality in this house comes from my First Nations background, and it decidedly anti-Catholic in particular. I am...concerned about her sudden interest in religious dogma, but I don't want to say horrid things about Christianity to her either.

So what does one do in a situation like this? At what age should children 'choose' their religion? Can I hope she'll grow out of it? Parents with experience in this area...please, help me draw my child back from the abyss...


Leave her to it, she will either become Christain or not in her own time.

With my kids I answer all religous questions by starting with 'this is what some people belive'. At the moment they are both commite atheists, my youngest one is questioning me about my faith, and of course I'm trying hard not sound over enthusiastic about it.

Do you really mind though if she becomes a Christian?

Here is an idea: don't enlist the advice of people on an internet chat board when it comes to raising your child. Many of these morons don't have any moral compass what so ever and even more have no idea what it takes to raise a child.

And precisely what source is free from that problem?

Do you think people "IRL" are uniformly good, rational, or right? Do you think all books are? What source for information on this subject is guaranteed to be accurate?

And why on Earth do you assume that asking for input means that the OP will thoughtlessly or carelessly do whatever is suggested? Are you aware of how insulting and condescending you sound, when you basically imply that she isn't smart enough to listen to input and make rational choices about it?

Ain't nothing wrong with asking for input. Neesika has been around NSG for quite a while and knows many people who post here. She's well aware of the kind of information she can find here, and is also more than capable of filtering it and analyzing it, so you can drop your worry that she will brainlessly obey the instructions of random people on the intarwebs. The internet is a fantastic tool for finding information, and is generally no better or worse in terms of accuracy than any other human information resource.

To answer the question of the OP, my (atheist) parents allowed me to attend many different religious services. I even went to a Christian day-camp one summer. My mother discussed passages of the Bible with me when I was curious, and my father told me about his own father's experience as a Jew.

There's no reason to worry if your little kid is interested in religion or curious about it. I'd encourage you to take her to visit many different churches, temples, mosques, etc, if you have the time and energy to do so. Treat it like you would any other interest in your child's life; you don't abandon your kid to do whatever she feels like, but rather you help her talk about it and figure out what she thinks and feels about it.

I'd also recommend you be as honest as possible when you answer her questions. Sometimes that might mean saying negative things about a religion, because religions have some negative elements. What you can stress, though, is that most PEOPLE are very well-meaning, and even the negative parts of religion are usually rooted in good intentions or normal human feelings. Encourage her to empathize even when people make bad decisions. Always keep reinforcing that religion isn't some outside magical thing...it's about human beings being human.

Do you think people "IRL" are uniformly good, rational, or right? Do you think all books are? What source for information on this subject is guaranteed to be accurate?

If nothing else, coming onto the Internet to warn people that there's morons on the Internet is the quickest way to prove the point.

If nothing else, coming onto the Internet to warn people that there's morons on the Internet is the quickest way to prove the point.

A point which you and Bottle prove admirably considering you didn't understand the most important aspect: the intellectual and, perhaps, spiritual well-being of Neesika's child.

One would think that parenting issues would be one of those aspects of life where one would not seek the council from a NationStates forum. I would prefer more trusted sources. I did not mention any other sources because I don't know Neesika's situation but if this constitutes a trusted source then I feel rather sorry for Neesika.

As for relying on an internet forum instead of RL, Bottle, are you suggesting that people act the same way on the internet as they do face to face? I would much rather speak about my child to a person that I can see or read a book that I can research than the bunch of nameless anarchists, communists, and deviants I run into on this board. This place is good for arguments and, if lucky, a good debate and nothing more.

Don't get me wrong. A few of you are logical and rational but I would never post my concerns for my child. Read back through the posts if you wish to see why. Good day.

A point which you and Bottle prove admirably considering you didn't understand the most important aspect: the intellectual and, perhaps, spiritual well-being of Neesika's child.

What led you to that conclusion?


One would think that parenting issues would be one of those aspects of life where one would not seek the council from a NationStates forum. I would prefer more trusted sources. I did not mention any other sources because I don't know Neesika's situation but if this constitutes a trusted source then I feel rather sorry for Neesika.

One would hope that especially with parenting issues, parents would try and inform themselves as widely as possibly, listening to as many different views and ideas as they can manage before deciding on what might be best in their case and for their child.
There's a vast variety of people on this forum, from many different countries, of many different age groups and family situations. If I was looking to gather ideas on how to handle a tricky situation, I wouldn't hesitate asking here. Sure, you get the odd moron replying, but you also get some really balanced and thoughtful advise.


As for relying on an internet forum instead of RL, Bottle, are you suggesting that people act the same way on the internet as they do face to face? I would much rather speak about my child to a person that I can see or read a book that I can research than the bunch of nameless anarchists, communists, and deviants I run into on this board. This place is good for arguments and, if lucky, a good debate and nothing more.
Don't get me wrong. A few of you are logical and rational but I would never post my concerns for my child. Read back through the posts if you wish to see why. Good day.

This board is a lot like real life : you can get out of it whatever you choose to.

*snip*

You should read: The Wisdom of Crowds by James Surowiecki.

I can't speak for Bottle or Neesika but, for myself, using as many information sources as possible is a fine way to sift through advice and come to a conclusion.

Plenty of harm is done by people relying on what they consider 'trusted sources', which are often no more than their own reflected views, affirmation of what they already believe.

The Internet is a great resource for discovering information you might never have thought of if you stuck to your own crowd of 'trusted sources'.

There are many other parents on these boards, each with their own experiences and opinions, and that's all they are, opinions.

As Bottle says, you assume Neesika is unable to determine which advice she thinks is relevant, useful and informed and which advice she can safely ignore. Beyond that, you cannot even say whether she's simply inviting discussion related to something she's observed in her own life.

What you can seem to do is dismiss plenty of people who simply have their opinion, and that's ironic when that's all you're doing, giving yours.

EDIT: Damn you Cabra West, damn you to hell, in the nicest way possible of course

:mad:

One would hope that especially with parenting issues, parents would try and inform themselves as widely as possibly, listening to as many different views and ideas as they can manage before deciding on what might be best in their case and for their child.
There's a vast variety of people on this forum, from many different countries, of many different age groups and family situations. If I was looking to gather ideas on how to handle a tricky situation, I wouldn't hesitate asking here. Sure, you get the odd moron replying, but you also get some really balanced and thoughtful advise
This is true. I have before gotten points of view that I would have never considered. Listening to ideas does not mean you have to put into practice every single bit of advice. Brainstorming is to get you thinking more than it is meant to offer solutions.

A point which you and Bottle prove admirably considering you didn't understand the most important aspect: the intellectual and, perhaps, spiritual well-being of Neesika's child.

And you do, of course, O Internet Stranger. So please enlighten us all!


One would think that parenting issues would be one of those aspects of life where one would not seek the council from a NationStates forum.

Why? Parenting is important, and I'd say it's wise to get information from as many places as you can. Gathering input is only a bad thing if you're so stupid or credulous that you can't analyze information for yourself.


I would prefer more trusted sources. I did not mention any other sources because I don't know Neesika's situation but if this constitutes a trusted source then I feel rather sorry for Neesika.

And I feel sorry for you if you honestly believe you have ANY source that is 100% accurate.

Hint: You don't.

Your very best friends in the world can be wrong. So can your family members. Your spouse. You.

Books written by experts can be wrong. People who have spent a lifetime doing research on a subject can be wrong.

There is not one single source in existence that is guaranteed to always be right, and hence it is never a good idea to take information without question from ANY source.


As for relying on an internet forum instead of RL, Bottle, are you suggesting that people act the same way on the internet as they do face to face?

Are you suggesting that being face-to-face automatically increases the likelihood that somebody will be right? Or honest? Or knowledgeable?

I've personally never seen the slightest inclination that people are more likely to be right in person than they are on the 'net. If anything, people on the internet seem to put less effort into masking their mistakes.


I would much rather speak about my child to a person that I can see or read a book that I can research than the bunch of nameless anarchists, communists, and deviants I run into on this board.

Just FYI, those nameless folks are actually IRL people. They actually do exist in real life, and many of them interact with other humans in real life.

Odds are, many of the people you interact with IRL are also people who use the internet. Do you think that they magically become more intelligent, perceptive, or knowledgeable when they talk to you face-to-face? Do they suddenly gain some sort of insight that they don't have when they are typing?

People are people. Human input is human input, whether it's written in a book or on a forum.

If what you care about is the quality of input, then it shouldn't matter how you're getting it. If something seems like good advice, does it matter if you read it off a screen or off a page? Does it suddenly become lousy advice because it's on the internet?

What if a printed book is uploaded to the internet?!


This place is good for arguments and, if lucky, a good debate and nothing more.

That's precisely what the OP was looking for, so I don't see what your problem is.


Don't get me wrong. A few of you are logical and rational but I would never post my concerns for my child. Read back through the posts if you wish to see why. Good day.
So, at the end of it, your message to the OP is as follows:

"As a random internet stranger, I hold random internet strangers in contempt, and I strongly advise you not to seek advice from random internet strangers."

Are you more sensible in person, or is your silliness on the internet consistent with your silliness in person?

So, at the end of it, your message to the OP is as follows:

"As a random internet stranger, I hold random internet strangers in contempt, and I strongly advise you not to seek advice from random internet strangers."

Are you more sensible in person, or is your silliness on the internet consistent with your silliness in person?

:p

Maybe he had a self realisation.

Well... Sunday school isn't all that impressive. At age 6, it's mainly play and singing songs.

not in the catholic church. at age 6 you are preparing for your first holy communion. you learn the basic beliefs of the church and the catholic catechism. big time dogma. the major prayers. the trinity.

Leave her to it, she will either become Christain or not in her own time.

With my kids I answer all religous questions by starting with 'this is what some people belive'. At the moment they are both commite atheists, my youngest one is questioning me about my faith, and of course I'm trying hard not sound over enthusiastic about it.

Do you really mind though if she becomes a Christian?
To all those who have suggested that Neesika Jr might be becoming Christian or otherwise seeking religion:

REALITY CHECK: SHE'S 6.

She's not becoming anything or seeking anything or communing with any god in any way at all. What she's doing is developing social awareness and social interactive skills by engaging in part of the lifestyle of her little peers. This is completely normal and healthy for her developmental age, but it in no way implies a religious vocation. It doesn't even imply real personal curiosity about the religion itself. It will be years yet before she develops the cognitive ability to process the concepts of the Catholic religion in order to understand the meaning of their rituals and teachings.

But that does not change the likelihood that, within that church, there may be adults who will wish to indoctrinate her despite her age and despite the disagreement of her mother. The social interactive aspect of this childhood interest is good, so long as Neesika guards against inappropriate influence by adults who are not the proper guardians of the child. Let her be Catholic with her little friends, but the priests and other adults should only be able to get to her through her mother, not directly.

That is the stance I would take if this were my child. Does anyone think that is not reasonable?

not in the catholic church. at age 6 you are preparing for your first holy communion. you learn the basic beliefs of the church and the catholic catechism. big time dogma. the major prayers. the trinity.
Half or more of the kids I grew up to adulthood with were raised Catholic, and maybe half of those attended Catholic school as well. According to them, early prep for first communion/confirmation in the Church was like religious boot camp training, and no questions or doubts were tolerated. My best friend's brother, who was resistant, was even informed by one of the nuns that his soul was black. (Though she may have been right about him. ;) He was fun; became a cop eventually. The first time I heard someone gave him a gun, I was like :eek:. Anyway...)

I should point out that not one of those people is a practicing Catholic today. They're all either agnostic or atheist. So at the very least, I would say Neesika should worry about having her child's time wasted.

:p

Maybe he had a self realisation.

Indeed, but long ago. I realize I have no right to tell another about the spiritual and intellectual well-being of their child. Amazing that this is turned into me saying I am the agent of enlightenment in such matters although, to my credit, I actually have children which is more than a lot of others here can say. This thread is proof that this is, for the most part, just another excuse for most of you to have an anti-Christian dog-pile. Sorry to rain on the parade.

I question the judgment in asking the nameless unknowns of this forum for anything resembling good advice. As I said before, RL people and parenting resources can be researched in order to determine their validity. Perhaps you would care to provide your credibility on this matter?

But hey, according to you this place abounds with knowledge and wisdom. I don't believe it considering the idiocy of many of the uninformed responses but perhaps Neesika does and that is way Neesika wishes to contemplate the demands of parenthood.

You speak of differing opinions and considering options o' Open Minded Ones. Consider mine.

Indeed, but long ago. I realize I have no right to tell another about the spiritual and intellectual well-being of their child. Amazing that this is turned into me saying I am the agent of enlightenment in such matters although, to my credit, I actually have children which is more than a lot of others here can say. This thread is proof that this is, for the most part, just another excuse for most of you to have an anti-Christian dog-pile. Sorry to rain on the parade.

I wonder where you see that, for try as I might, I can't find any poster telling Neesika to stop her child from participating in anything Catholic/Christian that might take her fancy... all they seem to be telling her is to keep things balanced and to offer different perspectives now that her child has taken an interest in religion.
But maybe I'm just not getting it, and what they all really are saying is that the kid ought to be sacrificed rather than being let near any sort of religion or belief...


I question the judgment in asking the nameless unknowns of this forum for anything resembling good advice. As I said before, RL people and parenting resources can be researched in order to determine their validity. Perhaps you would care to provide your credibility on this matter?

Well, how about having been raised Catholic, in a Catholic culture?
How about having children themselves (as I seem to remember both Asmoria and Smunkee and Peeps do, among others)?
How about having been asked for advise, thought about it, and posted those thoughts? How much more credibility do you need when asking someone for their opinion?


You speak of differing opinions and considering options o' Open Minded Ones. Consider mine.

Done. And I think your opinion could do with a bit more balance and less dismissal regarding others.

Now...I'm an atheist. Any spirituality in this house comes from my First Nations background, and it decidedly anti-Catholic in particular. I am...concerned about her sudden interest in religious dogma, but I don't want to say horrid things about Christianity to her either.

So what does one do in a situation like this? At what age should children 'choose' their religion? Can I hope she'll grow out of it? Parents with experience in this area...please, help me draw my child back from the abyss...

Well... is she happy? I think that's the main problem. As long as she doesn't become an integralist (that is a very stupid approach to any kind of idea).

Anyway, you know, my parents were raised as catholics by catholic parents, and they've both become atheist. So, don't fret about it.

She's just a kid. When your six hte world is full of interesting things... Let her explore, and just be there for her if it looks like people are tyring to "push" her one way or the other. It's important you give her room and make sure others do as well, and that she feels she can always come to you about anything at all. True of religion, true of everything in your childs life.

I'm a firm believer in teach her all the other belief that the Monotheists call Myths. Greek Gods, Roman Gods, Egyptian godsm Buddhism, Toaism, Shintoism, etc.

Emphasize the term "myth". if your daughter is smart, she should start to see the similarities, and question why all of them are "myths" but christianity is the revealed word of god.

Don't be hostile to christianity, but just portray it the same as all the others myths. Portray it is a story that some people believe, but you personally don't.

My six year old is...enamoured of the Catholic church at the moment. She attended my niece's first communion and has been bitten by the Jesus bug. It doesn't help that churches tend to target children and make it all fun and games mixed in with a little 'God made the whole earth' and 'this is the Holy Trinity' blah blah blah.

Now...I'm an atheist. Any spirituality in this house comes from my First Nations background, and it decidedly anti-Catholic in particular. I am...concerned about her sudden interest in religious dogma, but I don't want to say horrid things about Christianity to her either.

So what does one do in a situation like this? At what age should children 'choose' their religion? Can I hope she'll grow out of it? Parents with experience in this area...please, help me draw my child back from the abyss...

Fight it.

My usual opinion is freedom of religion, and all that... but your child can't be free of religion, Christianity is invasive, and they WILL come for her.

My little girl was about the same age when she started showing an interest in grandma's church, and now that's our biggest bone of contention. She now mocks other religions (something she would never have dreamed of before), gives me a hard time for being an Atheist, and argues about things like Creationism with me. I really hope she grows out of it.

Christianity is evil. It will target your children, and will turn them against you. Fight it.

To all those who have suggested that Neesika Jr might be becoming Christian or otherwise seeking religion:

REALITY CHECK: SHE'S 6.

She's not becoming anything or seeking anything or communing with any god in any way at all. What she's doing is developing social awareness and social interactive skills by engaging in part of the lifestyle of her little peers. This is completely normal and healthy for her developmental age, but it in no way implies a religious vocation. It doesn't even imply real personal curiosity about the religion itself. It will be years yet before she develops the cognitive ability to process the concepts of the Catholic religion in order to understand the meaning of their rituals and teachings.

But that does not change the likelihood that, within that church, there may be adults who will wish to indoctrinate her despite her age and despite the disagreement of her mother. The social interactive aspect of this childhood interest is good, so long as Neesika guards against inappropriate influence by adults who are not the proper guardians of the child. Let her be Catholic with her little friends, but the priests and other adults should only be able to get to her through her mother, not directly.

That is the stance I would take if this were my child. Does anyone think that is not reasonable?

I notice that you quote my post, I do hope that does not mean you feel I am one of those whom you talk about in your post?

I admit i'm very biased but i got to say DO NOT LET HER BECOME CATHOLIC, the fact is that catholicism and Christianity are very outdated and dogmatic and will ensure she becomes a bigot and i gotta say, no one wants a bigoted child, id be ashamed.

Use whatever way possible but stop her becoming catholic, also she will most likely become sanctimonious and judgmental, nothing more annoying than a kid preaching to you about god, cause they don't care about logic.

Indeed, but long ago. I realize I have no right to tell another about the spiritual and intellectual well-being of their child.

If somebody asks your opinion on something, you've every right to respond. You don't have to if you don't want to, of course, but you're not remotely out of bounds if you choose to respond.


Amazing that this is turned into me saying I am the agent of enlightenment in such matters although, to my credit, I actually have children which is more than a lot of others here can say. This thread is proof that this is, for the most part, just another excuse for most of you to have an anti-Christian dog-pile. Sorry to rain on the parade.

Do you think you're the only person capable of distinguishing reasonable, helpful posts from non-constructive posts?

Do you think your personal standards about the quality of posts is a standard that all people must use?

Do you think your minor complaints actually constitute anything as significant as "rain" on this particular parade?


I question the judgment in asking the nameless unknowns of this forum for anything resembling good advice.

Which creates a lovely paradox, since by your own standard nobody should give a shit what you have to say in this case. They certainly shouldn't listen to any of your advice, you nameless unknown you.


As I said before, RL people and parenting resources can be researched in order to determine their validity. Perhaps you would care to provide your credibility on this matter?

I don't need any "credibility," in this case, and neither does anybody else in this thread. We were asked for opinions. All that is required, if we want to comply, is that we share our opinions.

An opinion is an opinion, no matter who is sharing it. The opinion of a "parenting resource" can't be researched. Sure, you can research the background of the parenting resource if you want, and you can certainly fact-check any solid claims they make, but none of that actually consistutes research on THE OPINION. Because it's an opinion.

Great resources and great people can have lousy opinions. That's why you remember that they're just opinions.

But hey, according to you this place abounds with knowledge and wisdom.

This place has no more or less wisdom than any other forum, internet or otherwise, where humans discuss stuff.


I don't believe it considering the idiocy of many of the uninformed responses

...of which the real world certainly has none...


but perhaps Neesika does and that is way Neesika wishes to contemplate the demands of parenthood.

Gee, I'd say that certainly is a possibility, given that she decided to bring this question before the forum and all.


You speak of differing opinions and considering options o' Open Minded Ones. Consider mine.
That's exactly what I've done. See, unlike you, I practice what I preach. I listened to what you had to say and I applied my own reason to it. I found your opinions wanting.

Being open minded doesn't mean blindly accepting anybody's opinion as gospel. Being open MINDED includes using your MIND. Considering possibilities and alternate opinions means using your own mind to evaluate them.

In other words, being open minded doesn't mean you are required to be a chump, or that you are required to let arrogant strangers behave in an insulting manner without calling them out.

I notice that you quote my post, I do hope that does not mean you feel I am one of those whom you talk about in your post?
I just picked the most recent post that contained the kind of wording I wanted to address. I make no presumptions about your intentions as the writer because I was only using you to address several different writers.

I just picked the most recent post that contained the kind of wording I wanted to address. I make no presumptions about your intentions as the writer because I was only using you to address several different writers.

Heh no presumptions about my intention except it used the type of wording you wished to address huh!

Fair do's.

Heh no presumptions about my intention except it used the type of wording you wished to address huh!

Fair do's.
Several people have raise the idea of the child taking on a religion or becoming Christian/Catholic/whatever, and they have all raised it in different contexts and with different intentions. Some think it is happening, some think it might happen, some think it would be good, some think it would be bad.

My "reality check" was that, because of her age, it is extremely unlikely that it is happening at all.

You asked in a very general sense if Neesika would mind her child becoming a Christian. At age 6, I do not think that is an issue for Neesika to concern herself with.

Several people have raise the idea of the child taking on a religion or becoming Christian/Catholic/whatever, and they have all raised in different contexts and with different intentions. Some think it is happening, some think it might happen, some think it would be good, some think it would be bad.

My "reality check" was that, because of her age, it is extremely unlikely that it is happening at all.

Yeah I sorta got all of that from your post. It's somewhat of a large assumption to make though of child you have not met, isn't it?

I started thinking 'is there a God?' at around age ten, my youngest is having the same sort of thoughts at age 12, my oldest had already mad his mind up by the time he was 7, differant strokes and all that.


Although having said that I do tend to agree with you, if you'll notice my very first words were 'leave her to it'.
which is an indication of my belife that at this stage it largely does not matter.

My six year old is...enamoured of the Catholic church at the moment. She attended my niece's first communion and has been bitten by the Jesus bug. It doesn't help that churches tend to target children and make it all fun and games mixed in with a little 'God made the whole earth' and 'this is the Holy Trinity' blah blah blah.

Now...I'm an atheist. Any spirituality in this house comes from my First Nations background, and it decidedly anti-Catholic in particular. I am...concerned about her sudden interest in religious dogma, but I don't want to say horrid things about Christianity to her either.

So what does one do in a situation like this? At what age should children 'choose' their religion? Can I hope she'll grow out of it? Parents with experience in this area...please, help me draw my child back from the abyss...

Just do not condone this ridiculous behavior. I would not speak out against it, but just passively ignore it. She will get the message.

Children should be 21 years old or older before being exposed to this. Just like liquor, porno, or any other adult activity.

Several people have raise the idea of the child taking on a religion or becoming Christian/Catholic/whatever, and they have all raised it in different contexts and with different intentions. Some think it is happening, some think it might happen, some think it would be good, some think it would be bad.

My "reality check" was that, because of her age, it is extremely unlikely that it is happening at all.

You asked in a very general sense if Neesika would mind her child becoming a Christian. At age 6, I do not think that is an issue for Neesika to concern herself with.

'Becoming' Christian is kind of a red herring, though. 'Becoming Christian' is discussing faith, and this isn't relly about 'faith'... as you said, at 6 that's not really even a level on which she (probably) can give an informed response.

But at 6 she can identify with Christians, and - maybe more importantly - can slip easily into the perspective that what she hears from Christians is true... and that queers the pitch for an impartial perspective on everything else about her - and not just religious matters.

My six year old is...enamoured of the Catholic church at the moment. She attended my niece's first communion and has been bitten by the Jesus bug. It doesn't help that churches tend to target children and make it all fun and games mixed in with a little 'God made the whole earth' and 'this is the Holy Trinity' blah blah blah.

Now...I'm an atheist. Any spirituality in this house comes from my First Nations background, and it decidedly anti-Catholic in particular. I am...concerned about her sudden interest in religious dogma, but I don't want to say horrid things about Christianity to her either.

So what does one do in a situation like this? At what age should children 'choose' their religion? Can I hope she'll grow out of it? Parents with experience in this area...please, help me draw my child back from the abyss...To paraphrase the Jesuits...."Give me the child till they are 7 and I shall give you the adult".

If you feel your daughter is being inculcated with any sort of superstitious ideas or beliefs, it's only fair to point out that The Catholic Faith is only one of a larger number of such beliefs. Also, it would be equally fair to point out that non belief in such superstition is just as valid. Perhaps buy her some books aimed at this age group explaing this in an appropriate way.

As it happens, I agree with Richard Hawkins when he said there are no Christian/Hindu/Budhiust etc. children, just children of such....there's a world of difference there!

As it happens, I agree with Richard Hawkins when he said there are no Christian/Hindu/Budhiust etc. children, just children of such....there's a world of difference there!

The man is called Dawkins.
Stephen Hawking is the other fellow, the bloke looking for the unified theory of everything.

So what does one do in a situation like this? At what age should children 'choose' their religion? Can I hope she'll grow out of it? Parents with experience in this area...please, help me draw my child back from the abyss...

Mine are 9 and 6. I understand what you’re going through, and we’ve had a number of deaths in my family recently, so the notions of “God” and “what happens after you die” have come up a lot lately as we’ve gone through the wake/funeral traditions.

I try to not posit one faith as more credible or ridiculous than the other – we have friends and family with a number of beliefs and traditions, and it’s culturally impossible to not be at least aware of how faith makes other people do things, right or wrong. I just try to focus on actions over beliefs. What do we do, rather than what do we believe. I figure if you try to stay rational and consider things from the perspective of “what’s the end result…what do you do as a result of how you feel” that they’ll grow up to keep that in mind, and work towards being decent to others in the here and now, instead of wondering if doing something is going to get them into heaven or glorify their deity or whatever.

Certainly there are a lot of adults that explore and change faiths; it doesn’t just stop when they’re a certain age. At least if you’re teaching your kids decent values, those will become the core of their personality and hopefully they will use that to assess any faith system they may ever become curious about. A pretty dress and a crown is an empty shell, whether it’s a Disney princess dress or First Communion dress. It’s the person inside that provides substance.

The man is called Dawkins.
Stephen Hawking is the other fellow, the bloke looking for the unified theory of everything.

Umm, the clunking fist descends.

'Becoming' Christian is kind of a red herring, though. 'Becoming Christian' is discussing faith, and this isn't relly about 'faith'... as you said, at 6 that's not really even a level on which she (probably) can give an informed response.

But at 6 she can identify with Christians, and - maybe more importantly - can slip easily into the perspective that what she hears from Christians is true... and that queers the pitch for an impartial perspective on everything else about her - and not just religious matters.
And that would be why I have repeatedly stated that I would not allow a child of mine to participate directly in religious rituals or be exposed to any kind of religious instruction outside of my direct supervision. It's one thing to learn what others do. It is entirely a different thing to be taught to do as they do.

However, I do not believe you protect children from potentially negative influences by isolating them from them completely -- just like you don't teach them fire safety by never letting them anywhere near a fire.

And that would be why I have repeatedly stated that I would not allow a child of mine to participate directly in religious rituals or be exposed to any kind of religious instruction outside of my direct supervision. It's one thing to learn what others do. It is entirely a different thing to be taught to do as they do.

However, I do not believe you protect children from potentially negative influences by isolating them from them completely -- just like you don't teach them fire safety by never letting them anywhere near a fire.

I have almost the opposite view. Let them have a go at things, all religous rites are largley meaningless, so whats the harm in them being in the nativity play, or celebrating diwali at school, or attending a boring church service?

Before I start, I apologize to any offended by me saying there may be no god (but then again, isn't it equally as offensive as saying there IS one?).

I am an avid atheist and am 100% against ALL forms of religion. But, it is her choice if she wants to be a Catholic. That also applies in reverse, if somebody wants to be a Satanist or atheist, they are entitled. As I said just let her be a Catholic if she wants, but show her all the flaws and and that the church may not be right and she doesn't have to be Catholic. If you do that, it may help her escape its grip. Also, don't make it easy for her to go to church (like refusing to take her and making simple consequences like earlier bedtime or something if she goes, but nothing too big). But if you REALLY don't want her to be religious, tell her about all the horrific crimes the Catholic church committed (there are plenty). But the best step is to show her that thing like God are (in our opinions) just as fictional as Santa Claus and the tooth fairy. If she believes in any of those, first show her that they aren't real then later on reveal that god isn't either. If you let her believe in Santa, etc, she will see no reason why god can't be.

And that would be why I have repeatedly stated that I would not allow a child of mine to participate directly in religious rituals or be exposed to any kind of religious instruction outside of my direct supervision. It's one thing to learn what others do. It is entirely a different thing to be taught to do as they do.


If your chuild is attending 'church' (of any kind, pretty much) then your child is being 'taught to do as they do', like it or not. That's pretty much the whole idea behind 'churches' - to create that 'formal' atmosphere and provide that formal platform.


However, I do not believe you protect children from potentially negative influences by isolating them from them completely -- just like you don't teach them fire safety by never letting them anywhere near a fire.

Who said anything about isolation? You should let your child 'see' religion, just don't let them become involved in it. I learned my lesson - the next two won't go near a church for a decade yet.

Before I start, I apologize to any offended by me saying there may be no god (but then again, isn't it equally as offensive as saying there IS one?).

I am an avid atheist and am 100% against ALL forms of religion. But, it is her choice if she wants to be a Catholic. That also applies in reverse, if somebody wants to be a Satanist or atheist, they are entitled. As I said just let her be a Catholic if she wants, but show her all the flaws and and that the church may not be right and she doesn't have to be Catholic. If you do that, it may help her escape its grip. Also, don't make it easy for her to go to church (like refusing to take her and making simple consequences like earlier bedtime or something if she goes, but nothing too big). But if you REALLY don't want her to be religious, tell her about all the horrific crimes the Catholic church committed (there are plenty). But the best step is to show her that thing like God are (in our opinions) just as fictional as Santa Claus and the tooth fairy. If she believes in any of those, first show her that they aren't real then later on reveal that god isn't either. If you let her believe in Santa, etc, she will see no reason why god can't be.

The point is - your child can't make an informed decision at 6. How can you know if "she wants to be a Catholic"? She can't really even answer that question for herself, at that age. Which is, of course, why people raise kids in a religion - indoctrinate them early enough, and it will be almost impossible for them to ever be objective about it.

The point is - your child can't make an informed decision at 6. How can you know if "she wants to be a Catholic"? She can't really even answer that question for herself, at that age. Which is, of course, why people raise kids in a religion - indoctrinate them early enough, and it will be almost impossible for them to ever be objective about it.

It's a good thing our 6 year old choices aren't life long. My 6 year old listens to Hannah Montana, she thinks it's possibly the best music ever. 6 year olds are easily influenced and they make choices we think are... insane. She'll outgrow it. So will Neek's daughter.

I'm an atheist as well, except 20 with (obviously), no kids. I've gotten into long and sometimes even bitter arguments about this exact topic. Personally, I would say to let the child explore different religions, just be careful. It is extraordinarily unlikely that a six year old will find a religion to suit them for the rest of their life. It is through exploration of various faiths that I was able to come to the conclusion when I was 14 that I am an atheist, and I just feel like denying another person the same ability to learn would be hypocritical. But I can totally understand any reservations you would have about letting your child be exposed to something like religion, as we likely have very similar opinions on theology in general.

The man is called Dawkins.
Stephen Hawking is the other fellow, the bloke looking for the unified theory of everything.

Well I suppose unifying a biologist and a cosmologist into 'Richard Hawkins' is a good start towards a unifying theory. :D

I have almost the opposite view. Let them have a go at things, all religous rites are largley meaningless, so whats the harm in them being in the nativity play, or celebrating diwali at school, or attending a boring church service?

In only Neesika lived in the UK she could do what most people do if they want their children to grow up as atheists: send them to a Church of England school. ;)

In other words, being open minded doesn't mean you are required to be a chump, or that you are required to let arrogant strangers behave in an insulting manner without calling them out.

I totally agree. I am against arrogant strangers telling others how to raise their children or blindly casting all Catholics and christians as narrow minded bigots who prey on the innocence of little children. One must certainly call those people out and thoroughly give them a verbal beat down.

Funny that you took so long to agree with me.

A bit of a derailment, but I want to return to this:

Well thought out logic= Iraq war.. It was well thought out on paper(shock and awe, deceive everyone into believing its for democracy, etc). In practice its shit, right?
That's ridiculous. In what way was the Iraq war well thought out? Indeed, it was largely a result of complete faith in our leaders. That they wouldn't lie to us. That there were WMDs in Iraq.
What if we would have examined it critically? What if everybody would have said "wait, that is not good evidence. And Iraq has not attacked us, so why should we attack them?"
That would have been reasonable.
And then upon entering into the country, reason would have told us to properly equip our troops, to not dismantle Iraqi infrastructure, to go in with a plan to secure the borders, to plan for the Sunni-Shia divide.
But no-- we just had faith that our cause was just and that the justice of that cause would lead us to victory. The Iraq war, if anything, demonstrates the deficiency of faith, not of reason.

Now, for the faith of a child. Children believe the impossible. They believe in things that cannot happen, according to our "learned" minds. Sharing, being nice to everyone, and so on. What do adult minds believe in? We believe that we need to have the best 9-5 to be happy. We need cars, jewelry, a nice family, etc to have a good life. What do children need? Just their imagination. They find joy in the simple things. That is why Jesus said we needed faith like children. Like Yoda said, we must unlearn what we have learned. Why? Because its obvious that this complex world that adults have made is not getting any better, is it? It seems to be getting worse all the time. Instead, we need to embrace the faith we had as children. The thoughts that people find impossible, like doing what we put our minds to, or having peace and well being with others.

Children also believe in Santa Claus, in unicorns and magic. They believe all sorts of things that we know are not true. And if we all reverted to the child-like faith, you know what? Nobody would feel the need to grow food, because we'd have faith that somebody will feed us. Or anything similar. Children believe that they will be taken care of, that they don't need to do anything themselves. If everybody believed that? We'd all die.

As for what you claim to be the rationality of adults? Meh. I know plenty of people who don't need jewelry or a nice car or anything. They'd prefer to have good friends (and family, in some cases), to enjoy life as it comes, and to treasure every moment as though you knew you'd die tomorrow. Maybe it's just the sort of people I tend to end up friends with, but I don't agree with your assessment that everybody is like that.
But those who do value all those things value them, generally, because they take society's expectations at face value. That's not reason. That's faith. Faith that society knows what's best. But you can break away from society's expectations by thinking about it yourself. By identifying your goals and using your rationality to find out how best to achieve them. If you want to be happy, then you can identify the things that make you happy, and do those things. For example, I found that I enjoy training in the martial arts. So I do that.


Anyway...
One thing to consider-- give her one of those illustrated childrens' Bibles-- along with other childrens' books on mythology, and even ones that have no mythological content, but are just stories. That way, she'll put the Bible in the same context as other religious (and nonreligious) works. Also, religion plays a pretty big part of our history and literature, so an early exposure to myth is, I think, a great thing for a child.

I totally agree. I am against arrogant strangers telling others how to raise their children or blindly casting all Catholics and christians as narrow minded bigots who prey on the innocence of little children. One must certainly call those people out and thoroughly give them a verbal beat down.

You mean.. it is possible for a Christian to be a decent human being ?
Nah. That is silly. A christian can be a wonderful guest at parties, ready helper of old ladies wishing to cross the road and a generous donator to charity - but him (or her) being a Chistian nullifies that all.

If you find that reasoning silly, feel free to replace Christian by childmolester. Or practising homosexual if you are a fundie. Black man if you are a Klan member. Or whatever you condemn ;)

My six year old is...enamoured of the Catholic church at the moment. She attended my niece's first communion and has been bitten by the Jesus bug. It doesn't help that churches tend to target children and make it all fun and games mixed in with a little 'God made the whole earth' and 'this is the Holy Trinity' blah blah blah.

Now...I'm an atheist. Any spirituality in this house comes from my First Nations background, and it decidedly anti-Catholic in particular. I am...concerned about her sudden interest in religious dogma, but I don't want to say horrid things about Christianity to her either.

So what does one do in a situation like this? At what age should children 'choose' their religion? Can I hope she'll grow out of it? Parents with experience in this area...please, help me draw my child back from the abyss...

My wife and I encourage religious awareness in our children, though this usually begins once they are showing curiosities in such things. We expand our knowledge on what the kids are showing interest in, allow them to question and provide them what information we can to foster their own ability to answer the questions they have. Without sugarcoating. Sometimes they have questions which they seem unable to reason with and want our input, so we may take a dual pro/con position, while trying to keep a spotlight on ethical considerations.

I was raised hardcore Old Testament with a light coating of New Testament Christianity, and my wife was raised semi-liberal Mennonite

I don't think there is really any set age or good age at which they can choose their religious views, more of the "when it's time...it's time".

I think you can hope she'll grow out of it, but then again, if that's her calling in life, denying it's development may deny her the tools to see the fallacies present in all religions and send her to the extreme of blind faith.

We also provide them what literary resources we can, hard religion, soft apostate religion, humanist philosophy, etc. So far, it has worked well; our 16 y/o daughter is wholeheartedly (not blindly though) Baptist, our 14 y/o is pretty much a generic deist, our 13 y/o is so wrapped up in her humanity she doesn't have time for religion (never showed an interest), our 10 y/o is borderline generic pagan, our 9 y/o is all over the place (religiously speaking, though showing more interest in general new testament Christianity and Muslim), and our 6, 4, 2, and 0 year olds haven't started looking at it yet.

By far, as a parent, I think that encouraging our children's analytical and questioning mind to be paramount to forcing them into the mold we see most fitting. Then again, as a parent, we must be wary for our children's well being, and know that whenever religion becomes a factor in life, the naive and eager mind can be corrupted by the darker underpinnings of the professed well meaning collective.

My six year old is...enamoured of the Catholic church at the moment. She attended my niece's first communion and has been bitten by the Jesus bug. It doesn't help that churches tend to target children and make it all fun and games mixed in with a little 'God made the whole earth' and 'this is the Holy Trinity' blah blah blah.

Now...I'm an atheist. Any spirituality in this house comes from my First Nations background, and it decidedly anti-Catholic in particular. I am...concerned about her sudden interest in religious dogma, but I don't want to say horrid things about Christianity to her either.

So what does one do in a situation like this? At what age should children 'choose' their religion? Can I hope she'll grow out of it? Parents with experience in this area...please, help me draw my child back from the abyss...

Meh, encourage her to think, that should take care of the problem...
;)

So what does one do in a situation like this? At what age should children 'choose' their religion? Can I hope she'll grow out of it? Parents with experience in this area...please, help me draw my child back from the abyss...

Duh, found an atheist church that's even more impressive. Not sure where you'll get the funding, though.

Got some credible proof to back that up? The main reason is to read about it myself, I have heard something on Brain surgey but it was more the fact that they just cut open the head and picked out a part because they believed it was the root of the problem, when we now know that it wasn't.

Watch the History Channel.

There's more than just BC lobotomies, such as just removing part of the skull to relieve pressure on the brain, which is a legitimate form of treatment for some injuries.

This isn't proof per se but it's a list of some of the things mentioned on the History Channel: http://www.unrv.com/culture/roman-surgery.php

Also, for the steam-stuff: http://www.alternatehistory.com/Discussion/showthread.php?t=91783

Again, not proof per se, but some corroboration.

There is only implications of such for the paranoid/delusional who wish to see it.
You responded to QASM's quote of:

What you did do is associate christians today with the the evil torturers and fundamentalists. I support telling people the whole truth, as long as you don't try and use that as a guage of the integrity of christians in modern times.
With:

Im pretty sure the Lords Liberation Army, the various Irish groups, etc are not ancient or Medieval organizations...
I don't think I'm paranoid or dellusional to see an implication on your behalf that modern Christians are "evil torturers and fundamentalists"; especially considering your previous posting record. Once again, I'd suggest you be more careful with your writing style, especially with the use of trailing full stops (...).

Because, the way I read his statement, he is ["scientifically ignorant"].
How is saying "evolution isnt the whole story" scientifically ignorant? It is perfectly true, whether one believes in the supernatural or not.

Why? Its perfectly clear what I am saying.
This debate testifies otherwise.

EDIT: Perhaps I'm being too prickly, and I apologise if so, but the attitude of some that all religious people are brain-dead, moronic cultists is, frankly, brain-dead and moronic. Being an atheist who's friends with many kind, rational, intelligent religious folks who aren't blowing up abortion clinics, abusing women or condemning everyone and their Aunt to fiery damnation, it pisses me off.

Watch the History Channel.

There's more than just BC lobotomies, such as just removing part of the skull to relieve pressure on the brain, which is a legitimate form of treatment for some injuries.

This isn't proof per se but it's a list of some of the things mentioned on the History Channel: http://www.unrv.com/culture/roman-surgery.php

Also, for the steam-stuff: http://www.alternatehistory.com/Discussion/showthread.php?t=91783

Again, not proof per se, but some corroboration.

You have inadvertently given the answer to this thread.

Make the kid watch History Channel.

Tell her you think she's wrong. It irritates me when parents try to not push their beliefs on their children because a) it's impossible to avoid and b) if you are sincere in your beliefs, you shouldn't see anything wrong with your children having them, too. So, I say to you as a Catholic who would love to have another member of the Church, when she tells you what she learned about Jesus listen politely and then tell her you don't really believe that. Now, if she's twenty-six and getting baptized, mumbling to yourself is best. But there's nothing wrong with brainwashing small children.


The last sentence was sarcastic. Mostly.

Fight it.

My usual opinion is freedom of religion, and all that... but your child can't be free of religion, Christianity is invasive, and they WILL come for her.

My little girl was about the same age when she started showing an interest in grandma's church, and now that's our biggest bone of contention. She now mocks other religions (something she would never have dreamed of before), gives me a hard time for being an Atheist, and argues about things like Creationism with me. I really hope she grows out of it.

Christianity is evil. It will target your children, and will turn them against you. Fight it.

she will grow out of it.

i know its upsetting now but you are training your daughter to think. she is getting all this religion stuff from one side and questions from you on the other side that she has to figure out how to answer.

and as you well know, thought is the enemy of fundamentalism. she may end up with some kind of religious belief but its unlikely to be bible literalism.

I have absolutely no idea what I'm going to do about my kids and faith. With Little Goofball, we're kind of playing it by ear. I'll let him explore his interests. I'll encourage him to keep exploring. That's about all I decided. If he takes an interest in faith or God Forbid, Religion, I'm not going to discourage his explorations. An open mind, the encouragement to question reality and authority and critical thinking skills should be all the vaccine he needs. *nod*

Christianity is evil. It will target your children, and will turn them against you. Fight it.

Hard to believe your child would mock another religion. You seem to have quite the opened mind on it yourself. I am sure you never ridiculed her beliefs considering that you believe them to be evil.

They are probably more like you than you would wish to see...

my understanding is doctrine differences.
aka trinity, son of god, actually dieing on the cross instead of just looking like he died etc. that sort differences in doctrine forces soemone to make a choice which either way will not be atheist.


Hindu believe Jesus was the son of god and a reincarnation of Krishna, and tend agree with the beliefs of whoever is talking to them. and the Hindu's have their own trinity.

Right now I doubt those doctrinal differences are going to matter very much :D When she told me what they did during the Sunday school session, she said 'we practiced being gods'.:p

on the other hand...

while she is "studying" christianity watch out for fears and nightmares. kids can obsess over the idea of hell and eternal torment and become very frightened that she or family members might end up in the pit of fire. a 6 year old doesnt have any perspective on that kind of thing.
This is why I have a particular antipathy towards Catholicism. All the focus on sin, and punishment, and hell etc...knowing how Catholicism was introduced and integrated into First Nations communities, the enormous focus on guilt seems so unhealthy to me.

True, I don't think kids should have to deal with such worries, as all kids are essentially innocent. Then again, a kid asking "Mommy, what happens when we die?" and being told "Oh, you rot in the ground, dear." isnt a whole lot better. Moral of the story: Death is a bad thing for kids to be reflecting on. Period. I don't agree that death is a bad thing for kids to be reflecting on. I think it's a perfectly natural thing to reflect on and wonder about. I talk to my children about death fairly often...the death of animals that become our food, the death of plants, the death of bugs, the death of people etc. It doesn't scare them...they understand it's part of the life cycle.

Wow, thats not sounding very..... tolerant. Why should you worry about your daughter having a different religion than you?

I don't have a religion...I'm atheist. So she wouldn't be having a different religion than me, she would be having religion, period. This bothers me, because like most parents, I hope that my children will grow up to be intelligent and non-superstitious people.

I don't have a religion...I'm atheist. So she wouldn't be having a different religion than me, she would be having religion, period. This bothers me, because like most parents, I hope that my children will grow up to be intelligent and non-superstitious people.
Are people with religions unintelligent? All of them?

However, I think you should be ADAMANT about limiting her participation in Catholic religious rituals. Under no circumstances should you let her attend any religious instruction from the church, even if her little friends are going to Catechism School (or whatever). It is NOT your religion, and you ARE her parent. You get to make that decision for a 6-year-old, not some priest.

I would take that stance because I am strictly opposed to the religious indoctrination of children.
This is essentially my position. I don't mind her going to services with her aunt...but I draw the line at sunday school. Apparently she was chanting, "god made the earth, god made me" and so on. Over and over again. How educational.

I don't think it's 'innocent'...not when these churches specifically target young minds, and specifically program to their age level in order to bring them into the fold.

This bothers me, because like most parents, I hope that my children will grow up to be intelligent and non-superstitious people.

I am not sure how intelligence is related to choice of worship.

I also cannot say that a little superstition is really a bad thing.

Then again, I am not a parent.

Are people with religions unintelligent? All of them?

Yes. You're dumb Smunkee. Dumb as dirt.

No, not all religious people are unintelligent, as not all atheists are intelligent. I'm biased, and I'll admit it. I think people who are extremely religious have something slightly wrong with them. There is a gap needing filling, and they plugged it up with 'faith'. Some people plug that gap with heroin, chess, or tacos. But much as I find that people who are extremely conservative are not people I can respect....people who are extremely religious also fall into the 'we're not going to be friends' category.

There are plenty of people who don't take religion to extremes...but they aren't the ones I'm worried about.

The more I read of this thread, the more vehement I get in my opinion that children should stay out of religion. I think it is terrible to expose children to any environment or context in which grown-ups get so hostile so readily. It is upsetting to little kids to see adults lose their cool like that.

Mmmmmhmmm.

Hey, at one point, it was considered child abuse to not ensure your children attended church. Oh, and being aboriginal. That was abusive, inherently.

I find it extremely freaky having adults tell my children that they were born full of sin.

Mostly, I don't want adults telling my children jack squat unless I've vetted it first.

Yes. You're dumb Smunkee. Dumb as dirt.
It's possible, even though I am currently without a clearly defined religion. I was more worried about the implications to Muravyets who seems very intelligent.

No, not all religious people are unintelligent, as not all atheists are intelligent. I'm biased, and I'll admit it. I think people who are extremely religious have something slightly wrong with them. There is a gap needing filling, and they plugged it up with 'faith'. Some people plug that gap with heroin, chess, or tacos. But much as I find that people who are extremely conservative are not people I can respect....people who are extremely religious also fall into the 'we're not going to be friends' category.

That's interesting.

There are plenty of people who don't take religion to extremes...but they aren't the ones I'm worried about.

I am sure your daughter will NOT be one of those, as long as you aren't extreme with her.

I am not sure how intelligence is related to choice of worship. I was being snarky, in response to snarkiness.

I also cannot say that a little superstition is really a bad thing. I don't think 'a little superstition' is an accurate description of any organised religious belief. We're not just talking believing in some fat guy who delivers presents once a year. We're talking an entire system of how to live your life...based on superstition.

I don't have a religion...I'm atheist. So she wouldn't be having a different religion than me, she would be having religion, period. This bothers me, because like most parents, I hope that my children will grow up to be intelligent and non-superstitious people.

i think the only thing you have to worry about is that your aunt? may be wanting to save your daughter's soul. that can put you in the kind of spot that grave'n'idle is talking about.

I am sure your daughter will NOT be one of those, as long as you aren't extreme with her.
Exactly.

My parents are very keen on their faith, and took me to the Kirk for all of my childhood. But they never forced anything on me, and I'm an agnostic atheist. Unless you're actually indoctrinated, religious belief is hard to 'imprint' on individuals.

It's possible, even though I am currently without a clearly defined religion. I was more worried about the implications to Muravyets who seems very intelligent. Oh shush, I wasn't calling you stupid and you know it, dumbass :P

GoG is another example of a religious person I have extreme respect for. So look, even I can bend.



I am sure your daughter will NOT be one of those, as long as you aren't extreme with her.Yeah, I'm pretty sure as well. But reading this thread does indeed convince me that I should be keeping my children away from church. At least at school you know the qualifications of the adults working with your kids.

I can't see how telling children about Santa Claus and telling them about Jesus is any different, your still building a really nice fantasy only to later brutally tear it down in front of them, only difference being that most children stop believing in Santa pretty young, while there's actually full-grown adults around who STILL believe in Jesus (if you can believe it, lol):p...

That's almost as crazy as adults who believe Stalin was a great leade--ohshitwhathaveIdone?

I admit i'm very biased but i got to say DO NOT LET HER BECOME CATHOLIC, the fact is that catholicism and Christianity are very outdated and dogmatic and will ensure she becomes a bigot and i gotta say, no one wants a bigoted child, id be ashamed.

Can I pause the conversation for just a sec here? This really sounds like a scare statement to me: "Don't let her become Catholic! She will be brainwashed and she will become a bigot."

Kinda like that part from Mean Girls, "Don't have sex. You will get pregnant and die."

Not that I'm saying your the sole offender here, God knows that we've done more than our fair share of that sort of thing.

Which is, of course, why people raise kids in a religion - indoctrinate them early enough, and it will be almost impossible for them to ever be objective about it.

Obviously it isn't flawless. People leave the Catholic Church often enough as described by earlier anecdotal evidence from another poster as well as from people I've known personally.

Plus we all know the stereotype of the Catholic who attends Mass bianually and ignores pretty much everything the Pope says. Y'know, your average American Catholic. :p

This is why I have a particular antipathy towards Catholicism. All the focus on sin, and punishment, and hell etc...knowing how Catholicism was introduced and integrated into First Nations communities, the enormous focus on guilt seems so unhealthy to me.

Totally reminds me of this:

"I have issues with anyone who treats God like a burden instead of a blessing, like some Catholics. You people don't celebrate your faith. You mourn it."

Mostly, I don't want adults telling my children jack squat unless I've vetted it first.
Lots of parents feel that way. They are the ones that people bitch about when they bitch about homeschooling. Your child, even at 6, needs to learn to hear things her mother doesn't agree with, and think about them, and decide what is worthy of believing and what is not. You can't bash her exploration. You can ask questions and get her thinking. Anything else is way controlling and intolerant and promoting ignorance.

i think the only thing you have to worry about is that your aunt? may be wanting to save your daughter's soul. that can put you in the kind of spot that grave'n'idle is talking about.

Her aunt. My sister-in-law. Yes, I'm annoyed with her pushing. She wants the girls to be baptised etc. Hell no. Luckly my husband shares my dim view of the church. I haven't gotten to GnI's advice yet, I'm desperately trying to catch up:)

Yes, what bothers me the most is my sister-in-law using her leverage as a beloved aunt to attempt to get my child to follow HER religion.

Strangers you can cut out of your life. You have to be oh so much more crafty with family. Luckily, said sister-in-law isn't that smart.

Maybe Neesika could take this time and learn from her child. The faith of a child is superior to the well thought out logic of Adults. This can be proven pretty easily.
http://generalitemafia.ipbfree.com/uploads/ipbfree.com/generalitemafia/emo-lolani.gif
Well thought out logic= Iraq war.. It was well thought out on paper(shock and awe, deceive everyone into believing its for democracy, etc). In practice its shit, right?

Now, for the faith of a child. Children believe the impossible. They believe in things that cannot happen, according to our "learned" minds. Sharing, being nice to everyone, and so on. What do adult minds believe in? We believe that we need to have the best 9-5 to be happy. We need cars, jewelry, a nice family, etc to have a good life. What do children need? Just their imagination. They find joy in the simple things. That is why Jesus said we needed faith like children. Like Yoda said, we must unlearn what we have learned. Why? Because its obvious that this complex world that adults have made is not getting any better, is it? It seems to be getting worse all the time. Instead, we need to embrace the faith we had as children. The thoughts that people find impossible, like doing what we put our minds to, or having peace and well being with others.
http://generalitemafia.ipbfree.com/uploads/ipbfree.com/generalitemafia/emo-lolani.gif
I have absolutely no idea what I'm going to do about my kids and faith. With Little Goofball, we're kind of playing it by ear. I'll let him explore his interests. I'll encourage him to keep exploring. That's about all I decided. If he takes an interest in faith or God Forbid, Religion, I'm not going to discourage his explorations. An open mind, the encouragement to question reality and authority and critical thinking skills should be all the vaccine he needs. *nod*
I will be disappointed if at least one of your children does not form a cult around himself and take steps to secede from the US.

Lots of parents feel that way. They are the ones that people bitch about when they bitch about homeschooling. Your child, even at 6, needs to learn to hear things her mother doesn't agree with, and think about them, and decide what is worthy of believing and what is not. You can't bash her exploration. You can ask questions and get her thinking. Anything else is way controlling and intolerant and promoting ignorance.

Yes well, I always offer these sorts of people my children for sale. Put your money where your mouth is and go ahead and raise my kids, bitches :D

Na, I just point out that I'm a teacher, with experience in early childhood development AND secondary school level education. Also that they can kindly fuck off.

Yes well, I always offer these sorts of people my children for sale. Put your money where your mouth is and go ahead and raise my kids, bitches :D
I'll take them. They'll probably end up at church camp this summer though.

Na, I just point out that I'm a teacher, with experience in early childhood development AND secondary school level education. Also that they can kindly fuck off.
Education does not negate being a nutjob.

Here is an idea: don't enlist the advice of people on an internet chat board when it comes to raising your child. Many of these morons don't have any moral compass what so ever and even more have no idea what it takes to raise a child. Riiiight. You know them well enough to make that generalisation.

There are a number of posters here that I've 'known' for over three years, and for whom I have quite a bit of respect. I'm also intelligent enough to be able to read responses, figure out generally what biases are being presented, and filter those biases in order to glean whether anything useful has been communicated to me or not. Of course, according to my perception of what is 'useful' and what is not.

I won't give you a disseration as to why this online inquiry is extremely useful as part of a more wholistic study of the matter...since I doubt you actually want to be educated on the matter. In fact, I belive your intent is only to slag the forum, cast aspersions on the intelligence of everyone besides yourself, and essentially behave like an ass to get your jollies. Jollies, by the way, which you are feeling in real life...not in some ephemeral 'online' existence.

Education does not negate being a nutjob.

No. Being me negates being a nutjob :D Whether other people believe that or not is of little importance, when I have the final say over the education of my children.

Totally reminds me of this:

"I have issues with anyone who treats God like a burden instead of a blessing, like some Catholics. You people don't celebrate your faith. You mourn it."

The Muse, ¨Dogma¨

The Muse, ¨Dogma¨

Serendipity. :)

The point is - your child can't make an informed decision at 6. How can you know if "she wants to be a Catholic"? She can't really even answer that question for herself, at that age. Which is, of course, why people raise kids in a religion - indoctrinate them early enough, and it will be almost impossible for them to ever be objective about it.

Well I think she'll be okay still...I mean, even I went to Sunday school once... :D

I wasn't prepared for this 'issue' and it's been the subject of days of debate. We've decided that she can attend services, but not schooling...she will not be baptised or anything else...if she wants to do that when she's an adult, power to her. There are certain things I don't mind children being indoctrinated in...things like the 'seven safety steps of road crossing'. Religion, politics etc...off limits. I don't intend to shove my beliefs down my children's throats...nor do I intend to allow anyone else to do so.

Serendipity. :)
I think you'll find her name was OMGboobsandglassesandpigtailsdrooooool.

Serendipity. :)

Thanks, I forgot her name.:p

She'll outgrow it. So will Neek's daughter.

Don't say that. Apparently it's insulting or something.

Don't say that. Apparently it's insulting or something.

To Hannah Montana? :p

My youngest still thinks there is a transdimensional wormhole in her closet that cartoon characters travel through. She'll grow out of that too. *unless it's true.....

I have absolutely no idea what I'm going to do about my kids and faith. With Little Goofball, we're kind of playing it by ear. I'll let him explore his interests. I'll encourage him to keep exploring. That's about all I decided. If he takes an interest in faith or God Forbid, Religion, I'm not going to discourage his explorations. An open mind, the encouragement to question reality and authority and critical thinking skills should be all the vaccine he needs. *nod*
That's pretty much what my wife and I will do with our son. We both come from different faiths (She's Buddhist and I'm Christian) but we both have decided that excepting certain festivals that are more cultural than purely religious in nature, we're not going to drag our son to a temple or a church or even mention our beliefs unless he asks about them and then we will encourage him to explore other faiths (or non) and find out what fits him.

The ONLY time I would intercede would be if he started to drift into a cult.

Hard to believe your child would mock another religion. You seem to have quite the opened mind on it yourself. I am sure you never ridiculed her beliefs considering that you believe them to be evil.

They are probably more like you than you would wish to see...

Yes...because religious people raising their children in their faith are well known for their ability to say 'well, maybe none of what we believe is true...so go ahead and think other things m'kay'.

As I'm seeing in the case of my child, with whom we have not discussed religion with or in front of (or behind or beside or anywhere near her, since children hear all)...all the dogmatic foolery she's spouting is coming directly from the mouth of her aunt, and from the church she was attending. Directly. Word for word.

A six year old does not have 'beliefs'. A six year old has a singularily amazing ability to suspend disbelief. There is a fundamental difference between the two.

To Hannah Montana? :p

My youngest still thinks there is a transdimensional wormhole in her closet that cartoon characters travel through. She'll grow out of that too. *unless it's true.....

ohhhhhh as long as she doesnt end up as an otakukin...

I think you'll find her name was *fapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfap*.
Fixed.
Thanks, I forgot her name.:p

Dogma is made of win and awesome.

Fixed.


Dogma is made of win and awesome.

*rolls around the floor, laughing*

I love that my children live in a semi-fantasy world, surrounded by impossibilities. That's exactly what I wanted. What I detest is the sinister tone of the fantasies being extolled by the Catholic church. Because eventually, children should be able to grow up, recognise their fantasies for what they are...cherish their existence, but not continue to live with them. Church does not allow that to happen. In fact, it deliberately prevents this.

ohhhhhh as long as she doesnt end up as an otakukin...
You have NO idea... It's getting really, really silly down in Akihabara right now. I'm sure a church for cosplayers will be wandering along any day now.

I love that my children live in a semi-fantasy world, surrounded by impossibilities. That's exactly what I wanted. What I detest is the sinister tone of the fantasies being extolled by the Catholic church. Because eventually, children should be able to grow up, recognise their fantasies for what they are...cherish their existence, but not continue to live with them. Church does not allow that to happen. In fact, it deliberately prevents this.

the church cant prevent it from happening.

your daughter may end up with some kind of religious faith but it is unlikely to be strictly anything. raised in your home, she will be like you but (if it comes to pass) with an ideosyncratic belief system that includes the notion of god.

You have NO idea... It's getting really, really silly down in Akihabara right now. I'm sure a church for cosplayers will be wandering along any day now.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g274/Marneus767/LOLWUT5.jpg

I was being snarky, in response to snarkiness.

I don't think 'a little superstition' is an accurate description of any organised religious belief. We're not just talking believing in some fat guy who delivers presents once a year. We're talking an entire system of how to live your life...based on superstition.

Again, this is true of Christianity and of some other religions, but why do you assume that ALL religions involve a "system of how to live your life"?

the church cant prevent it from happening.

your daughter may end up with some kind of religious faith but it is unlikely to be strictly anything. raised in your home, she will be like you but (if it comes to pass) with an ideosyncratic belief system that includes the notion of god.
*calms down*

I don't know why I have any doubt my children are going to suddenly act as though some other woman mothered them. I just caught myself singing along to Patsy Cline while beading mocassins (no, really)...things my mother 'indoctrinated' me with when I was a kid...things I hated with all my being until suddenly I realised they were a part of me.

I can't wait for my kids to have those 'omg I'm turning into my mother' moments. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Fixed.
El lol.

You have NO idea... It's getting really, really silly down in Akihabara right now. I'm sure a church for cosplayers will be wandering along any day now.
Funny, my mate just moved to Tokyo to teach English for a year, and he's distinctly unimpressed by the lack of Cosplayers about. I'm sure he's just not in the right places.

Again, this is true of Christianity and of some other religions, but why do you assume that ALL religions involve a "system of how to live your life"?

I said all organised religions.

Because all organised religions involve a system of how to live your life. That's a big part of what makes them organised.

i think the only thing you have to worry about is that your aunt? may be wanting to save your daughter's soul. that can put you in the kind of spot that grave'n'idle is talking about.

Which (if true) is a good sign that her aunt should not be allowed anywhere near her daughter.

http://generalitemafia.ipbfree.com/uploads/ipbfree.com/generalitemafia/emo-lolani.gif

http://generalitemafia.ipbfree.com/uploads/ipbfree.com/generalitemafia/emo-lolani.gif

I will be disappointed if at least one of your children does not form a cult around himself and take steps to secede from the US.

Or at least declare themselves Emperor after the Widdow Norton passes . . .

Which (if true) is a good sign that her aunt should not be allowed anywhere near her daughter.

nah. she just shouldnt be allowed long periods of time alone with her.

my own aunt (im pretty sure) baptised my son at the kitchen sink when he was 2 months old. she just wanted to make sure he didnt go to hell. it was harmless.

So what does one do in a situation like this?
Put her in a nunnery and laugh.

Or at least declare themselves Emperor after the Widdow Norton passes . . .

Or marry her......

Why does everyone rag on all chrisitians because of the actions of some sects. Not all of us are like that ya know. I am not Catholic. I am Pentecostal. We aren't very dogmatic. I think that it is unfair to Christians to lump us all together in one group. I am not fond of the Catholic Church. Christianity in my opionon is about one's relationship with Jesus, not about Dogma and religion. There are a few important beliefs like the plan of salvation as layed out in the bible. My pastor made a statement last night that I found quite profound. "What you have and what you feel(refering to God's love...and how we feel about God...) transcends all racial boundaries, ethnic boundries, geographical boundaries, and denominational boundaries."

I said all organised religions.

Because all organised religions involve a system of how to live your life. That's a big part of what makes them organised.

Point I suppose, but at what point does a religion become "organized".

Or marry her......

Since I think she still lives in California I suppose that's possible as long as one of his kids hits 18 soon enough, or I suppose in any state as long as he has daughters. She's a drag queen, IIRC.

Or marry her......

...after she passes?

Point I suppose, but at what point does a religion become "organized".
When there's a clearly defined structure to doctrines of faith and/or religious leadership, I suppose.

...after she passes?

These are LG's children, so anything is possible.

All you can do is support her in whatever religion she chooses. That's what parents do. You would want your parents to support you, right? It doesn't matter if you agree, just let her choose.

Encourage it, then at least she would have a chance at getting to heaven.

Encourage it, then at least she would have a chance at getting to heaven.

Yay, we haven't had a good Christian troll around here for a while. You look promising, what else ya got?

Yes. You're dumb Smunkee. Dumb as dirt.

No, not all religious people are unintelligent, as not all atheists are intelligent. I'm biased, and I'll admit it. I think people who are extremely religious have something slightly wrong with them. There is a gap needing filling, and they plugged it up with 'faith'. Some people plug that gap with heroin, chess, or tacos. But much as I find that people who are extremely conservative are not people I can respect....people who are extremely religious also fall into the 'we're not going to be friends' category.

There are plenty of people who don't take religion to extremes...but they aren't the ones I'm worried about.

I am always cautious when I hear people say they are wary of "extremely religious people" or "extremely liberal" or "extremely vegan." The feeling I always take away is that we're okay with people who are indifferent enough in their beliefs that they won't bother, you know, making us uncomfortable.

Maybe what you mean is that you wouldn't be friends with prostelytizing religious people, or religious people who see their religious identity as proof of their superiority. I think of myself as "extremely religious" in that I try to do silly things like love everyone and stuff, but I don't try to convert my friends. I think there's a lot to say for evangelizing by not being incredibly obnoxious.

This is why I have a particular antipathy towards Catholicism. All the focus on sin, and punishment, and hell etc...knowing how Catholicism was introduced and integrated into First Nations communities, the enormous focus on guilt seems so unhealthy to me.

on the other hand...

while she is "studying" christianity watch out for fears and nightmares. kids can obsess over the idea of hell and eternal torment and become very frightened that she or family members might end up in the pit of fire. a 6 year old doesnt have any perspective on that kind of thing.
It's funny, I never really thought that much about Hell when I was little. I think my sole conversation with a parental figure went something like this:
"Mom [or Dad], do you think many people are in Hell?"
"Probably not."

For some reason, this was very comforting.

What's so wrong with religion? Studies show that members of Christianity have higher pay, higher confidence, lower suicide rates... the list goes on and on.
And for the first person to counter with "Religion is the cause of all bad things in the world-" No. Corruption is. Islamic Terrorists? Radicals. Spanish Inquisition? The Bible doesn't preach "Kill all Jews if they don't convert!" Nay, religion causes many good things. Hospitals, for instance. American Churches are responsible for over 90% of all donations sent to those affected by natural disasters, and, as a whole, churches are non-profit organizations who give to the poor, the needy, the helpless, the injured, et cetera - though there are a few that are a little scandelous, look at the small percentage of that. It helped bring Europe out of the Dark Ages, if you truely analyze it (the Bible bringing about an increase in literature, the printing-press, literacy, et cetera, as well as the Church generally organizing Europe together).

While I don't advocate the Catholic Church, it's not bad at all. Some of what they teach is not biblical, some may even be a tad misleading in my opinion (prayer to Saints, for instance) , however, from what I do know little actually contradicts biblical principle and teaching, and, if given the right priest, it's little different from other churches apart from little doctrinal issues.
Now, time and time again I hear stories of bad churches. I won't mention any denominations as being more prone, but yes, they exists in all denominations, the bad ones do. Judging - yes, it happens in some churches, but it happens everywhere outside of church too. Is it good? No. You can't help it, but there are many good churches where people actually try to practice the "No Judging" rule.
Hypocracy? Everyone's a hypocrite. In church, I've found, it's more common to find people who try not to be hypocrites.

If she wants to be a Christian, don't stop her. What will it hurt?
Yes, some of the things you'll hear will be fantastical. She's 6. They are going to tell her some things you'll find funny (you'll laugh a lot more when you're mind is so very closed to the concept of Christianity - when you're predisposed to disbelieve, it's difficult to pitch any story believable unless you've seen it with your own eyes. Thusly, I give you the concept of Faith.). When she gets older, the bible stories will make more sense and will be much clearer, and many more shall be far less humorous.

The point is - your child can't make an informed decision at 6. How can you know if "she wants to be a Catholic"? She can't really even answer that question for herself, at that age. Which is, of course, why people raise kids in a religion - indoctrinate them early enough, and it will be almost impossible for them to ever be objective about it.

You are quite the funny man GnI. Blazing Angels isn't funny, Children who are indoctriated at an early age will make it impossible for them to object to the Church. I know plenty of people who used to be members of various churches and would attend at an early age and throughouit most of their childhood. They are adults and many of them don't believe in God or do not attend services any more. Now they might not hate relgion like you as some of your posts suggest, unless of course that is what you meant by being objective.

This thread is proof that this is, for the most part, just another excuse for most of you to have an anti-Christian dog-pile. Sorry to rain on the parade.

Oh I agree with you it certainly look like it was going that way, like many of the other we have had on here.

But hey, according to you this place abounds with knowledge and wisdom. I don't believe it considering the idiocy of many of the uninformed responses but perhaps Neesika does and that is way Neesika wishes to contemplate the demands of parenthood.

Now where exactly did I say that? I also know that in some threads there is knowledge and wisdom, but there is and always will be people who have no idea what they are talking about and just post shit that conforms with their own twisted world, and that goes for people on both sides of the discussion

Just let the girl explore faith. Maybe it's just childhood fun and games, maybe not. Trying to squash it out of her is no different than a Christian exorcising a child that has turned away from the faith.

Of course, although I am not a parent, I can certainly see that it is difficult to let your children indulge themselves in an idea that you think is foolish, and your anti-Catholic views yet reluctance to 'tranish', if you will, her perceptions are quite valid. I second what everyone else has said: Educate her unbiasedly.

If religion truly did respect the beliefs of others, then it wouldn't desperately try to indoctrinate young children with terrifying images of Hell to keep them in line and keep them 'believing'.

What's so wrong with religion? Studies show that members of Christianity have higher pay, higher confidence, lower suicide rates... the list goes on and on.
And for the first person to counter with "Religion is the cause of all bad things in the world-" No. Corruption is. Islamic Terrorists? Radicals. Spanish Inquisition? The Bible doesn't preach "Kill all Jews if they don't convert!" Nay, religion causes many good things. Hospitals, for instance. American Churches are responsible for over 90% of all donations sent to those affected by natural disasters, and, as a whole, churches are non-profit organizations who give to the poor, the needy, the helpless, the injured, et cetera - though there are a few that are a little scandelous, look at the small percentage of that. It helped bring Europe out of the Dark Ages, if you truely analyze it (the Bible bringing about an increase in literature, the printing-press, literacy, et cetera, as well as the Church generally organizing Europe together).

While I don't advocate the Catholic Church, it's not bad at all. Some of what they teach is not biblical, some may even be a tad misleading in my opinion (prayer to Saints, for instance) , however, from what I do know little actually contradicts biblical principle and teaching, and, if given the right priest, it's little different from other churches apart from little doctrinal issues.
Now, time and time again I hear stories of bad churches. I won't mention any denominations as being more prone, but yes, they exists in all denominations, the bad ones do. Judging - yes, it happens in some churches, but it happens everywhere outside of church too. Is it good? No. You can't help it, but there are many good churches where people actually try to practice the "No Judging" rule.
Hypocracy? Everyone's a hypocrite. In church, I've found, it's more common to find people who try not to be hypocrites.

If she wants to be a Christian, don't stop her. What will it hurt?
Yes, some of the things you'll hear will be fantastical. She's 6. They are going to tell her some things you'll find funny (you'll laugh a lot more when you're mind is so very closed to the concept of Christianity - when you're predisposed to disbelieve, it's difficult to pitch any story believable unless you've seen it with your own eyes. Thusly, I give you the concept of Faith.). When she gets older, the bible stories will make more sense and will be much clearer, and many more shall be far less humorous.

Did someone call me?:D

Hypocracy? Everyone's a hypocrite. In church, I've found, it's more common to find people who try not to be hypocrites.

Hypocrisy's great; I don't know why it gets such a bad rap. I'd much rather people preach stuff better than what they practice, and not lower their preaching to their own behavior.

Why does everyone rag on all chrisitians because of the actions of some sects. Not all of us are like that ya know. I am not Catholic. I am Pentecostal. We aren't very dogmatic. I think that it is unfair to Christians to lump us all together in one group. I am not fond of the Catholic Church. Christianity in my opionon is about one's relationship with Jesus, not about Dogma and religion. There are a few important beliefs like the plan of salvation as layed out in the bible. My pastor made a statement last night that I found quite profound. "What you have and what you feel(refering to God's love...and how we feel about God...) transcends all racial boundaries, ethnic boundries, geographical boundaries, and denominational boundaries."

I applaud your statements. One's beliefs should be between one and God, without the Vatican as a middleman.

I also second your response to the lumping together of all Christian denominations.

My six year old is...enamoured of the Catholic church at the moment. She attended my niece's first communion and has been bitten by the Jesus bug. It doesn't help that churches tend to target children and make it all fun and games mixed in with a little 'God made the whole earth' and 'this is the Holy Trinity' blah blah blah.

Now...I'm an atheist. Any spirituality in this house comes from my First Nations background, and it decidedly anti-Catholic in particular. I am...concerned about her sudden interest in religious dogma, but I don't want to say horrid things about Christianity to her either.

So what does one do in a situation like this? At what age should children 'choose' their religion? Can I hope she'll grow out of it? Parents with experience in this area...please, help me draw my child back from the abyss...

I'm not a parent, but...
I think it could be a good idea to teach her about all religion - in a way she can understand. Perhaps something along the lines of "lots of people believe different things, some people believe this ___ and some people believe this ___" and so on. I think that could be very intersting for her, and she'll understand it better.

I went to a Christian school, and it wasn't until I was 10 that my father said he was agnostic, and I finally was able to look at it objectively, and now I repsect people's religious beliefs, but I don't believe in them.

She is too young and impressionable, they will brain wash her into Christianity.

Keep her as far away as possible, start going over the ideas of Darwin with her.
Honestly cults are the most destructive force in the world; separating families, taking money away from governments, destroying lives, and limiting jobs and food consumption to certain rituals.

A good example of this is Christianity.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g274/Marneus767/LOLWUT5.jpg
Currently Aki-town has maid cafe style hairdressers and an English school where the teachers cosplay and teach English from Gundam.

Oh, and can't forget the ladies currently going around and posing to show off their panties and/or other bits and parts causing street congestion do to the hordes of otaku taking pictures...

Add in the singing cosplay groups trying to make it big and like gets a little fun over there.

A cosplay church really WOULDN'T be out of the ordinary.

Funny, my mate just moved to Tokyo to teach English for a year, and he's distinctly unimpressed by the lack of Cosplayers about. I'm sure he's just not in the right places.
More like right time, they only pop out on certain days and times.

Yay, we haven't had a good Christian troll around here for a while. You look promising, what else ya got?

Just wanted to see what people would say. But seriously, a six year old will probably lose interest when they realize that their is reading involved in being a certain religion, and the reading is mostly boring. But I would encourage my kids to research religion and make a choice for themselves on what they believe.

It's funny, I never really thought that much about Hell when I was little. I think my sole conversation with a parental figure went something like this:
"Mom [or Dad], do you think many people are in Hell?"
"Probably not."

For some reason, this was very comforting.

i think that that is most people's reaction -- unless their parents are hell fire and brimstone kinda christians.

but some few kids obsess over death and the possibility of hell. it can be very frightening for them. if a parent notices it, they can help diffuse the terror.

Just wanted to see what people would say. But seriously, a six year old will probably lose interest when they realize that their is reading involved in being a certain religion, and the reading is mostly boring. But I would encourage my kids to research religion and make a choice for themselves on what they believe.

Awww, someone sensible. That's no fun. :(