NationStates Jolt Archive

Agreed, its not going to be much in the future with the weakening of USD. Still, how do yo waste 10 Billion dollars?

Give it to Pakistan. After 7 years they will say

Pak tells US cross-border attacks can't be stopped (http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/may/16pak.htm)

More here

http://www.bnd.com/285/story/340994.html
What could you buy with $6 billion? You could finally rebuild the New Orleans neighborhoods that Hurricane Katrina destroyed. For almost six years, you could provide a daily meal for every one of the 36 million Americans who live below the poverty line.

Or, you could give all of it to the Pakistani government in the form of military aid and accomplish absolutely nothing.

For more than seven years now, billions of American government dollars, expense reimbursements of about $90 million a month, have sluiced directly into the Pakistani treasury, instantly becoming "sovereign government funds," as a new government report puts it. Once there, the United States has no control over how the money is used. All of this money, about $6 billion so far, is intended to pay for counter-insurgency operations against al-Qaeda and Taliban sanctuaries in the tribal areas of northwestern Pakistan.

After seven years, al-Qaeda has established a terrorist-training and planning center there. The 2008 National Intelligence Estimate said al-Qaeda "has regenerated its attack capability and secured a safe haven in Pakistan." Meantime, the Taliban have begun applying fundamentalist Islamic law in the tribal areas they now control. They have shut down schools for girls, closed barbershops and music stores, just as they did in Afghanistan when they ruled that country.

In short, seven years and $6 billion later, the terrorist group that carried out 9/11 has grown ever more comfortable and secure in its new Pakistani home. There, Washington fears, their leaders - including Osama bin Laden - are planning another attack on the United States. Meanwhile, the newly elected Pakistani government is negotiating a truce with these militants and has already pulled most of its troops from the area.

This information comes from newly published federal government reports. No one in Washington is debating it. Last month, in fact, Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staffs, acknowledged that if the United States managed to pinpoint Osama bin Laden's location in the tribal areas, he was not sure Pakistan would give permission to attack him. That, Mullen said, is "open for discussions with the new government."

Despite all this, the money keeps flowing. The Bush administration has budgeted $900 million for the program this fiscal year, saying it is "a critical tool in our joint effort with Pakistan to constrain the assumption of sanctuary by extremists in western Pakistan." That last statement came from the Department of Defense just three weeks ago - even after major reports from the State Department, the General Accounting Office and the nation's intelligence agencies this spring all showed that the war there is lost, the money wasted.

All of this could have been predicted. In 2006, five years into the military assistance program, government auditors discovered that the United States was not even providing any advice or strategic direction for the Pakistani military. Washington was just handing over the money - "shoveling it," as one congressman put it - crossing their fingers and hoping something good might come of it. Nothing did.

Last month, Rep. Howard Berman, Democrat of California, chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, complained that Washington was not providing meaningful guidance even now.

"It's appalling that there is still no comprehensive inter-agency strategy concerning this critical region," he said.

In a report published last week, the Government Accountability Office, quoting Pentagon officials, said the Pakistani army, still today, is "neither structured nor trained for counter-insurgency" missions.

Last year for the first time, the Pentagon did raise questions about a few of the reimbursement requests Pakistan had provided, for expenses totaling about $80 million. Military officials, testifying to Congress, insist that their audits will be more thorough in the months ahead. But none of them have explained exactly what the new money is intended to accomplish - given that, for all the good it did, the $6 billion spent so far might just as well have been flushed down the sewer.

For a long time, Bush administration officials had quietly explained that they continued handing over the money because it helped prop up Pervez Musharraf, the Pakistan president, their supposed ally in the war on terror. But even that explanation rings hollow today. With his political party out of power, Musharraf sits in Islamabad, now little more than a figurehead.

So, like many other failed programs launched during the Bush presidency, this one will likely chug along untouched until a new president takes office - wasting an additional $900 million along the way.

What could you buy with $900 million?

6 Billion is just hot cash. Considering loan payment re-schedulings, interest waivers, aid and grants etc and on top of that free advanced weaponry (most of them not intended for battling insurgents, but to be used against India - like Sidewinders, Harpoons, Phalanx CIWS etc)..the total easily crosses $10 B.

And that gets you, "sorry, take a hike."

That's a nice way to burn money.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/27/pakistan.usa

says

Up to 70% of US aid to Pakistan 'misspent'

Wonderful.

And the rate at which US has re-armed Pakistan is alarming

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Pak_pips_India_in_arms-deal_race/articleshow/2420995.cms
WASHINGTON/NEW DELHI: Pakistan, a country about a sixth of India in size, population, economy and several other metrics, has for the first time outstripped India in purchasing military hardware and software, notching up arms deals worth $5.1 billion in 2006, as compared to $3.5 billion by India, to be ranked the world’s largest arms shopper, according to a Congressional study released Monday.

According to the report, ‘Conventional Arms Transfers to Developing Nations’, produced by the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service, Pakistan concluded $5.1 billion in agreements to buy arms in 2006, well ahead of second placed India with $3.5 billion in agreements and third placed Saudi Arabia with $3.2 billion, in the developing world.
..
US sales to Pakistan in 2006 included the $1.4 billion purchase of 36 new F-16C/D fighter aircraft and $640 million in missiles and bombs. The deal included a package for $890 million in upgrades for Pakistan’s older versions of the F-16.

Wait, we're going round for another go on the lets-arm-future-enemies-for-dubious-reasons roundabout? Even though we've thrown up really badly all the other times all over ourselves?

I guess we really like to get smelly.

Heh. Reminds me of the classic plot of "Brewster's Million's" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewster%27s_Millions)

Except in this case it's billions and there's no pot of gold waiting for us upon tossing away the billions...

Hey, well at least they now have some cool fighter planes, I am sure if the Taliban ever take to the skies the Pakistanis will give them a run for their money:p

I disagree with you all. Being half-Pakistani, I COMPLETELY understand how it is hard to defeat al-Qaeda. Please, friends, take a trip to Pakistan. There are god-damned mountains! Ever hear of K2? It's the 2nd largest mountain in the world. Also, I suppose you people don't know, but it isn't being....wasted, as you people called it. What is your definition of misspent....Corruption?! One of Pakistan's largest sectors is the military, so it wouldn't make sense to spend that money in other sectors.

1) Read In the line of Fire by Pervez Musharraf. Unlike typical BBC news reports that say, "Lawl, no terrorists hav bin killedz!" You can see where the number of terrorists killed comes in.

2) Ashfaq Kayani; look him up. He is the new Chief of Army Staff. He replaced Musharraf. Many people said that Musharraf sucks and what not. Well, people, you happy! A GOOD military man in a military position!

3) Osama is most likely in the Balochistan, no? If you knew about the...demographics of Balochistan, they are crazy. Now, don't get me wrong; my dad is Balochi, but many a times have they attempted to secede from Pakistan. Even right now, a region, Warzistan, is fighting us. Now, many of the people in this region, "The Federally Adminstrated Tribal Area" and another region *I forgot the name right now, the one to to the southwest* have pro-terrorist ties. It is very, very difficult to fight in that region because it is impossible to seperate friend from foe. Think of it like the 2006 Israel-Lebanon War. People accused Israel of killing innocent people. Pakistan doesn't want to do the same thing.

4) Now, we contribute in our own ways....WE send the most number of UN Peacekeepers. The most....More than India, more than the U.S., etc....

Just my thoughts..


EDIT: FALSE, WE ARE NOT NEGIOTIATING PEACE WITH THE TERRORISTS. THIS IS A FACT

~Mal.

Ever hear of K2? It's the 2nd largest mountain in the world.
Are you suggesting terrorists live at the top of tall mountains?

This is not going to be used to oust the Taliban or al-Queda, Pakistan doesn't care. It is eventually going to be used against India. I call it.

PS.
Even right now, a region, Warzistan, is fighting us
Lol

Are you suggesting terrorists live at the top of tall mountains?

This is not going to be used to oust the Taliban or al-Queda, Pakistan doesn't care. It is eventually going to be used against India. I call it.


...There's something called the base of a mountain....>_> Big mountains have big bases... : O

India doesn't have the balls to even attempt to invade us. We have China's backing, foo'.

PS.

Lol

I lol as well.

Agreed, its not going to be much in the future with the weakening of USD. Still, how do yo waste 10 Billion dollars?


The same way you can "lose" $2.3 trillion (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/01/29/eveningnews/main325985.shtml)..

6 Billion is just hot cash. Considering loan payment re-schedulings, interest waivers, aid and grants etc and on top of that free advanced weaponry (most of them not intended for battling insurgents, but to be used against India - like Sidewinders, Harpoons, Phalanx CIWS etc)..the total easily crosses $10 B.

And that gets you, "sorry, take a hike."

Wrong. We purchase the military hardware. It is DEFINITELY not for free. They are not free.


@Greater Trostia: xD

EDIT: We buy little to no planes from US. We buy from CHINA! The joint-produced JF-17 Thunder. Look it up.

Agreed, its not going to be much in the future with the weakening of USD. Still, how do yo waste 10 Billion dollars?

Give it to Pakistan. After 7 years they will say

Pak tells US cross-border attacks can't be stopped (http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/may/16pak.htm)
to be fair to the Pakistanis, it is an extremely long border:
http://www.worldpress.org/specials/pp/afghan_pak_border_map.htm
the border (all 2250km of it) is in red (ignore the colouring, as it's confusing as hell!)

Extremely rugged, mountainous country. Heck US can't even stop Mexicans getting into their country (how much has that cost to patrol that 3100km border which isn't mountainous and doesn't have hundreds of highly armed Mexican terrorists routinely crossing it to attack and kill Americans) so why do they expect Pakistan success in stopping al Qaeda and the Taliban? iirc the cost predicted for the US-Mexico border fence was to be $50 billion.

That said, if some of that money had been spent on protecting and supporting the border villages and less on pretty shiny weapons (and let's not forget the inevitable wastage from corrupt politicos and businessmen), they might have had a more measurable amount of success.

Agreed, its not going to be much in the future with the weakening of USD. Still, how do yo waste 10 Billion dollars?

Give it to Pakistan. After 7 years they will say

Pak tells US cross-border attacks can't be stopped (http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/may/16pak.htm)
...

And the rate at which US has re-armed Pakistan is alarming

US sales to Pakistan in 2006 included the $1.4 billion purchase of 36 new F-16C/D fighter aircraft and $640 million in missiles and bombs. The deal included a package for $890 million in upgrades for Pakistan’s older versions of the F-16.


10 Billion / 7 years = 1.4 Billion per year. The same amount as those planes cost.

Nice co-incidence there.

Ever hear of K2?

K2 has got nothing to do here. It is in an altogether different region.

It is in the Gilgit-Baltistan are (mostly Shia) and also in the Karakoram range, not in the Hindu-Kush range where there are problems.

You have to be better than "Oh I am half-Pakistani and by extension I know all about Pakistan".


3) Osama is most likely in the Balochistan, no?

Nobody says that. The most likely position is Chitral valley. Apart from Quetta, there are no places where a Pashtun can melt away.


4) Now, we contribute in our own ways....WE send the most number of UN Peacekeepers. The most....More than India, more than the U.S., etc....



"We" would be Bangladeshis, because Bangladesh sends most UN peacekeepers.

You are a "half-Pakistani" in NJ. You are most likely an American citizen born to a Pakistani dad. (going by what you yourself has said here)

Who is this "we" :p



EDIT: FALSE, WE ARE NOT NEGIOTIATING PEACE WITH THE TERRORISTS. THIS IS A FACT

~Mal.

Yes, "you" are. That is one of the first thing the new govt tried to do. Get a respite from all the suicide bombings.

No Pakistani Govt, Musharraf or not, Kiyani or not, BB or not, Nawaz Shariff or not, can do much about this unless they change the fundamental nature of the state.

You cannot be a jihadi state and renounce just anti-American jihad.

to be fair to the Pakistanis, it is an extremely long border:

Extremely rugged, mountainous country. Heck US can't even stop Mexicans getting into their country (how much has that cost to patrol that 3100km border which isn't mountainous and doesn't have hundreds of highly armed Mexican terrorists routinely crossing it to attack and kill Americans) so why do they expect Pakistan success in stopping al Qaeda and the Taliban? iirc the cost predicted for the US-Mexico border fence was to be $50 billion.

There was never an effort. It was all a dog and pony show. That is my argument.

Yes, its a porous border and what not. But let's not lose sight of the forest for the trees. There was never an intent to do this.

The problem is the army needs the jihadis. It needs the infrastructure to produce jihadis. Some of the jihadis thus produced likes to kill Americans. Just the nature of jihad. You cannot tell somebody to kill infidels and then tell them, "oh no, not that infidel, this infidel". That is the problem for the Pak govt. It was never going to work and it never will work.

No amount of money or coercion is going to change that. It goes far beyond a quick-fix solution of throwing money and threats at this.

Simple equation.

Military Aid Money = Taxpayers Money
Sellers of Military Goodies to Pakistan = Politicians and their friends.

Taxpayer money = Politicians and their friends money

And the system just keeps going.

I disagree with you all. Being half-Pakistani, I COMPLETELY understand how it is hard to defeat al-Qaeda. Please, friends, take a trip to Pakistan. There are god-damned mountains! Ever hear of K2? It's the 2nd largest mountain in the world.
I've been to the Afghan-Pakistani border, and from what I've seen, It's hardly unsurprising that cross-border attacks attacks are happening. There's just miles and miles of uninhabited nothingness. (Although no K2, that's somewhere else!) Getting accross would be child's play. The Americans couldn't stop the Vietcong nipping accross the Laotian and Cambodian borders either, so meh.

K2 has got nothing to do here. It is in an altogether different region.

It is in the Gilgit-Baltistan are (mostly Shia) and also in the Karakoram range, not in the Hindu-Kush range where there are problems.

You have to be better than "Oh I am half-Pakistani and by extension I know all about Pakistan".




Nobody says that. The most likely position is Chitral valley. Apart from Quetta, there are no places where a Pashtun can melt away.





"We" would be Bangladeshis, because Bangladesh sends most UN peacekeepers.

You are a "half-Pakistani" in NJ. You are most likely an American citizen born to a Pakistani dad. (going by what you yourself has said here)

Who is this "we" :p





Yes, "you" are. That is one of the first thing the new govt tried to do. Get a respite from all the suicide bombings.

No Pakistani Govt, Musharraf or not, Kiyani or not, BB or not, Nawaz Shariff or not, can do much about this unless they change the fundamental nature of the state.

You cannot be a jihadi state and renounce just anti-American jihad.


1) No, I am 100% sure. Pakistan sends the most UN peacekeepers.... Have fun... (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/dpko/contributors/2007/march07_2.pdf)

2) The K2 reference meant that Pakistan is a very mountainous place. You, being from India, should know that. It's very, very easy to hide people in caves in the big mountains...>_>

3) I may live in the U.S. but I've been to Pakistan countless times. The geography is very mountainous...

4) It's Kayani, not Kiyini.


EDIT: You're saying the government supports terrorism? Hah!

I grew up there as well. Big deal.

You see, even though it may be tricky, 1.4 billion dollars a year goes a long way towards sealing the border. Someone quoted about 2000km, wasn't it? So let's see. Divide cash across border, you get about* 500000 a year per kilometre. Hire soldiers, equip, train, etc. Call it 25k a year each. Then post on that one kilometre. 20 soldiers per kilometre, 50 metres to cover each. And that's way overestimating costs and underestimating cash.

Use some of the spare to cover tactical reinforcements, and inform troops to not engage, but call in for support. You could make it impermeable** for a good deal less.

*More than
**nearly

That's a nice way to burn money.

or the US could've actually burnt the money, or they could have cured AIDS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonsil_Trouble).

How do you waste 10 Billion USD?

I don't know, I haven't managed to convince anyone to give me that much yet...
:D

Start a war with a nation when most of the world says it is a pretty bad idea knowing that you have at least 1 ally stupid enough to join you./. you can waste that much money at least 10 fold.

1) No, I am 100% sure. Pakistan sends the most UN peacekeepers.... Have fun... (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/dpko/contributors/2007/march07_2.pdf)


The UN reports are monthly. Some months it is BD, and some months it is Pak and I don't have time to total them up and I don't even understand what is the relevance of that to this discussion.

4) It's Kayani, not Kiyini.

I did write Kiyani. That seems to be most accepted spelling. Both Kayani and Kiyini are wrong.

EDIT: You're saying the government supports terrorism? Hah!

Yes. They call them "Mujahideen" when it is against people they don't like.

Kidnapped Pakistani ambassador to Afghanistan Tariq Azizuddin released in exchange for Mullah Ubaidullah Akhund, second in command to Mullah Omar.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008/05/18/story_18-5-2008_pg1_1

Is this even news in the west? I did not hear anything about this in the UK (I am in UK now)

Still, how do yo waste 10 Billion dollars?


Invade Iraq.

Oh, you already had an answer....

EDIT: You're saying the government supports terrorism? Hah!

Are you laughing at the truth or your own pitifully uninformed statement?

2) The K2 reference meant that Pakistan is a very mountainous place. You, being from India, should know that. It's very, very easy to hide people in caves in the big mountains...>_>

I want to debate this.

The only reason you brought K2 up was to make us go "Oh boy I didn't know the world's SECOND BIGGEST mountain is there...Poor Pakistanis..how hard it must be for them fighting in those mountains".

Let us talk about the plains and easily accessible foothill places where jihadis are ruling the roost. Let us talk about Peshawar and Quetta. Let us talk about Muridke, the Lashkar e Toiba headquarters, located barely 100 Kms from Lahore. Why is it that jihadis are running around carefree and imposing their writ there? I don't know of any SECOND BIGGEST mountains with caves there. Do you?

Bear in mind that almost ALL of the big catches (Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Ramzi bin al-shibh etc) so far have been captured in urban areas and not in the "mountains with caves". :rolleyes:

The exchange of the ambassador for Ubaidullah was so obvious. Despite this you can hear this Pak govt bozo saying

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008/05/18/story_18-5-2008_pg1_2
Malik denies ‘deal’ to get back envoy

ISLAMABAD: The abducted ambassador’s release is not the result of a deal but of “action” by law-enforcement agencies:p , Interior Affairs Adviser Rehman Malik said on Saturday. “No deal, no deal, no deal,” he repeated to convince reporters at the ambassador’s house. “No exchange of terrorist, no exchange of terrorist,” Malik said. staff report

;)

I want to debate this.

The only reason you brought K2 up was to make us go "Oh boy I didn't know the world's SECOND BIGGEST mountain is there...Poor Pakistanis..how hard it must be for them fighting in those mountains".

Let us talk about the plains and easily accessible foothill places where jihadis are ruling the roost. Let us talk about Peshawar and Quetta. Let us talk about Muridke, the Lashkar e Toiba headquarters, located barely 100 Kms from Lahore. Why is it that jihadis are running around carefree and imposing their writ there? I don't know of any SECOND BIGGEST mountains with caves there. Do you?

Bear in mind that almost ALL of the big catches (Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Ramzi bin al-shibh etc) so far have been captured in urban areas and not in the "mountains with caves". :rolleyes:


Exactly. The only reason the mountians are relevent is because its difficult to fight a ground war in that kind of terrain.

The swindling of this money is done in every part of the chain.

http://www.dawn.com/2008/05/17/top9.htm
...Last week, former US ambassadors Richard Holbrooke and Thomas Pickering told the House Committee on Foreign Affairs that large sums from US assistant to a foreign nation went on consulting fees and overhead costs. They noted that much of the $750 million earmarked for the tribal areas will never leave the US soil. ...

Mr Ward told the congressman that although a Pakistani firm was building these schools, one of the top engineering firms in the United States was supporting the construction.

This prompted Mr Ackerman to ask if there was a limit on the reimbursement rate for such contractors. “No, is the answer to your question,” said Mr Ward.

“How much profit do they make on a million dollars?” asked Mr Ackerman.

“Oh, I don’t — you’ll have to ask them. I think they hold that pretty close,” said the USAID official. ...
...
But for now, the fact remains that billions of dollars directed at winning hearts and minds and creating opportunities for locals are given to rich contractors mostly in the United States.


Big fucking scam.

Not surprising but still disgusting.

I disagree with you all. Being half-Pakistani, I COMPLETELY understand how it is hard to defeat al-Qaeda. Please, friends, take a trip to Pakistan. There are god-damned mountains! Ever hear of K2? It's the 2nd largest mountain in the world. Also, I suppose you people don't know, but it isn't being....wasted, as you people called it. What is your definition of misspent....Corruption?! One of Pakistan's largest sectors is the military, so it wouldn't make sense to spend that money in other sectors.

1) Read In the line of Fire by Pervez Musharraf. Unlike typical BBC news reports that say, "Lawl, no terrorists hav bin killedz!" You can see where the number of terrorists killed comes in.

2) Ashfaq Kayani; look him up. He is the new Chief of Army Staff. He replaced Musharraf. Many people said that Musharraf sucks and what not. Well, people, you happy! A GOOD military man in a military position!

3) Osama is most likely in the Balochistan, no? If you knew about the...demographics of Balochistan, they are crazy. Now, don't get me wrong; my dad is Balochi, but many a times have they attempted to secede from Pakistan. Even right now, a region, Warzistan, is fighting us. Now, many of the people in this region, "The Federally Adminstrated Tribal Area" and another region *I forgot the name right now, the one to to the southwest* have pro-terrorist ties. It is very, very difficult to fight in that region because it is impossible to seperate friend from foe. Think of it like the 2006 Israel-Lebanon War. People accused Israel of killing innocent people. Pakistan doesn't want to do the same thing.

4) Now, we contribute in our own ways....WE send the most number of UN Peacekeepers. The most....More than India, more than the U.S., etc....

Just my thoughts..


EDIT: FALSE, WE ARE NOT NEGIOTIATING PEACE WITH THE TERRORISTS. THIS IS A FACT

~Mal.


Don't be a fool. We have mountains too. No terrorist problem, though. If you have a well trained army, you can root people out of mountains. It's Pakistan's own fucking country, if you can't keep your own country under your laws, than you don't deserve to have one. This whole post is just a bunch of lousy excuses.

Easy ... claim you bought shit you didn't.. claim you spent/used shit you didn't. Overcharge over the board for every freakin thing. Throw shit over board. etc etc..

The throw shit over board I got from a Navy dude .. they did it to keep the same money flowing in, at least. Goes on all the time.

Land mine, has taken my speech
taken my sight, taken my hearing,
taken my arms, taken my legs,
taken my soul,
left me with a life in hell.