NationStates Jolt Archive

So I have to take a health class. Despite the fact that we all took an identical class last year (lesson plans consist of: pot is bad, booze is bad, sex is bad), we're now taking health once again. This is a time that could be better used for a study hall. We could all use the time to finish the shitload of work that teachers heap on us at the end of the year, when they realize they're all behind schedule.

The biggest chunk of your grade in health class is a video you make at the end of the year. You're assigned a topic to make the video on (hallucinogens, alcohol, tobacco... yknow, all the stuff you're not supposed to do) and you get a couple weeks to finish. It's pretty easy. All that's required is a bunch of slides with disgusting pictures and slides in between that say things like: "The danger is real," and "Still not convinced?"

My partner and I made a video that was rejected. We used a fictional story of someone who gets hideously burned using tobacco (we used a picture of Freddy Krueger), gets his kids hooked on it (we used a picture of a baby smoking a cigar), and then has to use an iron lung for the rest of his life (we used a picture of Darth Vader). Apparently, this fine art wasn't "serious" enough to communicate the dangers of tobacco.

So we replaced it with a new movie. Exactly what the teacher wanted- a cookie-cutter movie, no different than any other movie he'd ever seen before. Lots of gross pictures. Slides in between saying: "You didn't know tobacco was dangerous before, but you do now!!!" "What the fuck was that in slide #2? I don't even know. STILL NOT CONVICED?" "Have we scared you into listening to us yet?" and, my favorite: "The danger is real... just like Bigfoot."

The teacher didn't pick up on the subtlety of the slides that had words on them (I don't think he can read), but he lost his shit completely when he reached a part in the middle where the music cuts out, and you just see me sitting in a chair. I start listing all the health benefits of tobacco. I don't remember what I said word-for-word, but I mentioned how tobacco improves focus, allows relaxation, eases anxiety, and curbs appetite. I mentioned how nicotine can off-set Parkinson's disease. I talked about how carbon dioxide in the bloodstream prevents too much clotting (overclotting is the leading cause of heart attack and stroke deaths).

Then I went on to say: "In a country where obesity is an epidemic, where people eat their feelings, where heart attacks are the number one killer of people and strokes are number three, should we really be beating down a product that relieves stress, curbs appetite, and prevents blood over-clotting? Shouldn't we be making a video on the dangers of hamburgers, and show disgusting pictures of obese people? Shouldn't we tell sad stories about people who ate too many French fries and died from that? No, of course not. That's not going to happen. And they'll never ask you for ID at Burger King, either- because you're old enough to kill yourself with fast food, but you're not old enough to kill yourself with alcohol or tobacco."

Well, that didn't go over too well. My question is: did I overstep my boundaries? Most of the kids thought that it was actually a good point, but the teacher and my parents seem to be of the opinion that I should've kept my mouth shut. Opinions, please.

you only over reacted if you fail the class and have to repeat it in order to graduate.

otherwise you stuck it to the man.

I applaud you, that took guts, and it made a point. It was not the smartest thing to do grade wise, but one bad health grade isn't going to screw you.

Well you are absolutely hilarious for one. Reminds me a lot of myself in highschool.

But as I grew older (you know...the past two years lol) I learned to just suck it up and do what the teacher wants to get the grade and make your parents happy. I had a professor this year in a Research Writing class that decided she was going to make the class Animal Rights 101. I pretty much hate animals and think animal rights is a joke, so at first I clashed with her an awful lot in class. Towards the end of the semester though, I decided that I could voice my opinions as much as I wanted, but when it came down to my papers that HAD to be about animal cruelty, I might as well just "tote the company line." Rebelling hurt me in the long run. I could have easily gotten an A in that class. But because I was too proud and hardheaded I ended up with a high B. And you can bet I was the last student she wanted to do a favor for.

Well you are absolutely hilarious for one. Reminds me a lot of myself in highschool.

But as I grew older (you know...the past two years lol) I learned to just suck it up and do what the teacher wants to get the grade and make your parents happy. I had a professor this year in a Research Writing class that decided she was going to make the class Animal Rights 101. I pretty much hate animals and think animal rights is a joke, so at first I clashed with her an awful lot in class. Towards the end of the semester though, I decided that I could voice my opinions as much as I wanted, but when it came down to my papers that HAD to be about animal cruelty, I might as well just "tote the company line." Rebelling hurt me in the long run. I could have easily gotten an A in that class. But because I was too proud and hardheaded I ended up with a high B. And you can bet I was the last student she wanted to do a favor for.

A fair point. I try to get along with my other teachers, and usually I do. Mostly, I just hate the politics of health class- it's clear that the class only exists to keep people employed. We don't need it. And the odds of me ever needing a favor from this guy... very low.

We'll see what kind of grade I get.

I've done similar things... while nothing to that extent. But I've always put the screws to any teacher being an idiot. I tended to fail alot of my classes as a result. But I didn't care.

Good job. There's no reason you should fail the video. Though you might get a lower grade then the A it deserves.

The biggest chunk of your grade in health class is a video you make at the end of the year. You're assigned a topic to make the video on (hallucinogens, alcohol, tobacco... yknow, all the stuff you're not supposed to do) and you get a couple weeks to finish. It's pretty easy. All that's required is a bunch of slides with disgusting pictures and slides in between that say things like: "The danger is real," and "Still not convinced?"

My partner and I made a video that was rejected. We used a fictional story of someone who gets hideously burned using tobacco (we used a picture of Freddy Krueger), gets his kids hooked on it (we used a picture of a baby smoking a cigar), and then has to use an iron lung for the rest of his life (we used a picture of Darth Vader). Apparently, this fine art wasn't "serious" enough to communicate the dangers of tobacco.

So we replaced it with a new movie... I start listing all the health benefits of tobacco. I don't remember what I said word-for-word, butI mentioned how tobacco improves focus, allows relaxation, eases anxiety, and curbs appetite. I mentioned how nicotine can off-set Parkinson's disease. I talked about how carbon dioxide in the bloodstream prevents too much clotting (overclotting is the leading cause of heart attack and stroke deaths).

Then I went on to say: "In a country where obesity is an epidemic, where people eat their feelings, where heart attacks are the number one killer of people and strokes are number three, should we really be beating down a product that relieves stress, curbs appetite, and prevents blood over-clotting? Shouldn't we be making a video on the dangers of hamburgers, and show disgusting pictures of obese people? Shouldn't we tell sad stories about people who ate too many French fries and died from that? No, of course not. That's not going to happen. And they'll never ask you for ID at Burger King, either- because you're old enough to kill yourself with fast food, but you're not old enough to kill yourself with alcohol or tobacco."

The assignment was to make a movie describing the dangers of tobacco use. Your first try was a ridiculous "we're going to make the stupidest project ever just to show you can't make us do it," attempt, and when he told you to try again (that is, gave you a second chance to do the project properly) you instead gave him the opposite of what was asked for.

So yeah, failing grade for this project is fair.

In my opinion, yes, you overreacted. However, eventually, things like the mostly-bull your second and after health classes get to be tiring and sickening, and boring cookie-cutter classes suck, and I applaud what you did (I don't agree with the sentiments, however; I would argue that the 'benefits' of tobacco are probably just coincidences, but that's not the point of this post). I wouldn't do it myself, probably.

Actually, my first health class just talked about sex, sex, sex. Then one day of "don't smoke, don't drink" But the rest was sex. And it wasn't "sex is bad" but, I had a good teacher, whose quote of the year was, "I don't care what you do, but whatever you do...use a fucking condom." Once out of the two times I've heard that word out of a teacher's mouth :P. I managed to use technology classes and extra major courses to avoid it in the future.

But, anyway, on the topic, while it was overreacting and you should have just given him the bull he wanted...You did what all of us want to in the boring classes, and I applaud you for having the courage to do so.

The assignment was to make a movie describing the dangers of tobacco use. Your first try was a ridiculous "we're going to make the stupidest project ever just to show you can't make us do it," attempt, and when he told you to try again (that is, gave you a second chance to do the project properly) you instead gave him the opposite of what was asked for.

So yeah, failing grade for this project is fair.

The second try gave him exactly what he wanted, a list of dangers of tobacco. Only, it offered a valid opinion about how bad tobacco really is in comparisson to the other health issues that exist at this time. The teacher wanted a particular thing, he got it and more, if he's going to punish someone for being creative and intelligent enough to question something that seems stupid then he should not be teaching.

...whose quote of the year was, "I don't care what you do, but whatever you do...use a fucking condom."
'course, there are also birthday condoms (to be blown with air as balloons) and laboratory condoms (to use a diaphragm in scientific experiments). S/he was just telling you to use the right kind of condoms. :D

The assignment was to make a movie describing the dangers of tobacco use. Your first try was a ridiculous "we're going to make the stupidest project ever just to show you can't make us do it," attempt, and when he told you to try again (that is, gave you a second chance to do the project properly) you instead gave him the opposite of what was asked for.

So yeah, failing grade for this project is fair.



Yep. One might call it brave not to take part in a propaganda making task (wtf?), but it's still a failed assignment.

The second try gave him exactly what he wanted, a list of dangers of tobacco. Only, it offered a valid opinion about how bad tobacco really is in comparisson to the other health issues that exist at this time. The teacher wanted a particular thing, he got it and more, if he's going to punish someone for being creative and intelligent enough to question something that seems stupid then he should not be teaching.
Valid is of course arbitrary here.

You're a legend and fair play for having the balls to do it

The second try gave him exactly what he wanted, a list of dangers of tobacco. Only, it offered a valid opinion about how bad tobacco really is in comparisson to the other health issues that exist at this time. The teacher wanted a particular thing, he got it and more, if he's going to punish someone for being creative and intelligent enough to question something that seems stupid then he should not be teaching.

No, a movie extolling the benefits of tobacco is not what was asked for. It's precisely the opposite of what was asked for.

If at your job your boss tells you he wants you to make a new ad campaign to sell your product, and you make a new campaign that gives the benefits of your product but then tells about how the competition's product is much better, you can bet you're not getting a raise. You might get shown the door.

The second try gave him exactly what he wanted, a list of dangers of tobacco. Only, it offered a valid opinion about how bad tobacco really is in comparisson to the other health issues that exist at this time. The teacher wanted a particular thing, he got it and more, if he's going to punish someone for being creative and intelligent enough to question something that seems stupid then he should not be teaching.

But the theme was "why tobacco sucks" right?

The second try gave him exactly what he wanted, a list of dangers of tobacco. Only, it offered a valid opinion about how bad tobacco really is in comparisson to the other health issues that exist at this time. The teacher wanted a particular thing, he got it and more, if he's going to punish someone for being creative and intelligent enough to question something that seems stupid then he should not be teaching.

A valid opinion if it was a general discussion about the pros and cons of tobacco. A rather invalid one if he was supposed to make a video about the dangers of tobacco.

I applaud your gutsyness. However, you may have obtained a Phyrric victory.

No, a movie extolling the benefits of tobacco is not what was asked for. It's precisely the opposite of what was asked for.

If at your job your boss tells you he wants you to make a new ad campaign to sell your product, and you make a new campaign that gives the benefits of your product but then tells about how the competition's product is much better, you can bet you're not getting a raise. You might get shown the door.

Why would any decent teacher set such a one sided project? School is not work and should not be treated as such, that thinking is what is leading to McDonalds being able to offer an A level.

A valid opinion if it was a general discussion about the pros and cons of tobacco. A rather invalid one if he was supposed to make a video about the dangers of tobacco.

Generally the point was to piss the teacher off as much as he was pissing me off. I realize what I did was "disrespectful," but it's hard to feel remorse when I never respected the guy in the first place. He was taking up time that would've been better spent studying for real classes. He was of the opinion that his class was the most important we would ever take (he told us at the beginning of the semester), and the idea of any truth contrary to his lesson plan was shocking to him.

To answer your point better, what was asked for was a movie about tobacco. We were told to list the myths and truths, the facts that "the tobacco industry won't show you," blah blah blah. Of course, the implication was that we were supposed to find things that were wrong with tobacco, since that was the message that they were hammering into our heads from day one.

Now it didn't say in the guidelines: "Tell us what's bad about tobacco and ignore everything else." What the teacher did say to us was: "You're trying to scare your classmates. Show them the truth." I'm not sure if I scared them (I showed them lots of gross pictures) but I definitely told the truth.

From a moral standpoint, I felt almost obligated to do it this way. The deaths caused by cancer are only half of the deaths caused by heart attack and stroke. And the class is not going to talk about dangerous things like fast food, because our health teacher has a prominent gut.
My health teacher last year was even better- we actually found a marijuana pipe in his room. He was lots of fun :)

Why would any decent teacher set such a one sided project? School is not work and should not be treated as such, that thinking is what is leading to McDonalds being able to offer an A level.

Oh, I don't know. If I ask you to add sums, will 5+3 equal anything other than 8 in base 10? Is it up for discussion?

As for school not being work, it is to laugh. School is for teaching one how to work -- why else the bells (like factory whistles) going off at predetermined times, and the school day being arranged like the work day, and the ability to get a decent job being tied into how well you've demonstrated your ability to learn the material and be prompt, follow directions, et cetera?

You'll find that the structure of schooling below the university level is right out of the Industrial Revolution if you bother to think about it or do any research.

That aside, it's very amusing watching all the "atta boys" given to this poster basically screwing himself for this project and rebelling about it. I guarantee that neither his parents, nor the teacher, nor the school is losing any sleep over the fact that sheer pigheadedness has possibly caused him some inconvenience.

I applaud your gutsyness. However, you may have obtained a Phyrric victory.

Oh well I'm sure my grade won't be as high as the grade I would've gotten for- say- a video identical to every other video ever made in that class.

Luckily, I'm not interested in obtaining that type of victory. I have A's in almost every other class, and with the boost from Honors classes, I can get a C in health (the lowest I can imagine my grade, since health and PE are the same program at my school, and I got an A+ in PE) and still have a 4.0 GPA. So no biggie.

Oh well I'm sure my grade won't be as high as the grade I would've gotten for- say- a video identical to every other video ever made in that class.

Luckily, I'm not interested in obtaining that type of victory. I have A's in almost every other class, and with the boost from Honors classes, I can get a C in health (the lowest I can imagine my grade, since health and PE are the same program at my school, and I got an A+ in PE) and still have a 4.0 GPA. So no biggie.

youve learned an important lesson.

you dont have to put up with bullshit just because someone in authority tells you to.

Then I went on to say: "In a country where obesity is an epidemic, where people eat their feelings, where heart attacks are the number one killer of people and strokes are number three, should we really be beating down a product that relieves stress, curbs appetite, and prevents blood over-clotting?

I think you need to pay more attention in health class. Smoking increases the risk of heart disease and the chances of developing a blood clot. Maybe thats why you're getting a C?

I think you need to pay more attention in health class. Smoking increases the risk of heart disease and the chances of developing a blood clot. Maybe thats why you're getting a C?

The source I used indicated that low amounts of carbon dioxide (a byproduct of cigarette smoke) in the bloodstream can keep blood from over-clotting. (EDIT: Five minutes of research has revealed so many conflicting sources that I can't argue one way or the other.)
And I'm not getting a C, as far as I know. I don't know what I'm getting. I don't actually think I got an F on the project, but we'll see.

The source I used indicated that low amounts of carbon dioxide (a byproduct of cigarette smoke) in the bloodstream can keep blood from over-clotting.
And I'm not getting a C, as far as I know. I don't know what I'm getting. I don't actually think I got an F on the project, but we'll see.

Cigarette smoke contains far more than just carbon dioxide. Far, far, far, far, far more.

Not really.

http://student.biology.arizona.edu/honors96/group7/tobacco.htm
http://www.oohoi.com/natural%20remedy/everyday_food/Benefits-of-Tobacco.htm

The following sites are all linked from: http://www.forces.org/evidence/evid/therap.htm

http://www.data-yard.net/10v2/parkinson.htm
http://www.data-yard.net/34/circulation_2001_104_773.htm
http://www.data-yard.net/10o/gums.htm
http://www.data-yard.net/30/asthma.htm
http://www.data-yard.net/10b/cm.htm

Is smoking still dangerous? Yes. Will I ever do it? No.
Is it completely stupid to force us to talk about all the cons of cigarettes and ignore the benefits? Yes.
Should any agenda that's overwhelmingly biased be combatted? Yes.
Is it hypocritical to put so much focus on cigarettes when there are other products out there killing people in GREATER numbers? Yes.
If no voice speaks for the other side of an issue, then it's not education anymore, it's brainwashing. Who wants to be part of that?

Oh, I don't know. If I ask you to add sums, will 5+3 equal anything other than 8 in base 10? Is it up for discussion?

Good point. Shame we're not talking about anything as clear cut as that.

As for school not being work, it is to laugh. School is for teaching one how to work -- why else the bells (like factory whistles) going off at predetermined times, and the school day being arranged like the work day, and the ability to get a decent job being tied into how well you've demonstrated your ability to learn the material and be prompt, follow directions, et cetera?

You'll find that the structure of schooling below the university level is right out of the Industrial Revolution if you bother to think about it or do any research.

Note I said should not is. You're a teacher, should we be teaching kids to think or to blindly obey?

A valid opinion if it was a general discussion about the pros and cons of tobacco. A rather invalid one if he was supposed to make a video about the dangers of tobacco.

An honest comparison of the pros and cons of smoking is far, far more effective to dissuade people from doing it than a one sided, clearly biased account. If you only mention the bad stuff, people will simply not believe you.

You ignore the fact that smoking significantly increases your risk of both heart attack and stroke, despite the fact that it has some anticoagulant properties.

I applaud your gutsyness. However, you may have obtained a Phyrric victory.

Or even a Pyrrhic one.

As a teacher, I like to reward effort so long as there is a solid foundation of reasoning behind straying from the intended topic. If you can show me your research and explain why you made the choices you did, I'm likely to see the effort and enforce the spirit rather than the letter of the law.

That said, there's a difference between going off the map for a reason and doing it for spite. I think the OP has more spite than reason. I'd have given him a B+ on the project, or perhaps a B for deliberately botching the first attempt. Kat has a point, and it's far more valid than those cheering on the deliberate horseshit perpetrated by the OP. Had the OP done the second film first and taken the time to explain what he was doing instead of basically filming an upraised middle finger in the first film, he might have received a better reception or at least have had a leg to stand on when defending his film to the principal.

The fact that you didn't appeal your film to the next level is indicative of you knowing you were just trying to take the piss out of your teacher (who, I agree, is less than stellar).

Put the video on youtube and give us a link!!!

I always thought health classes were a waste of time. You could get everything they want to tell you in a week, so why do they take a whole semester???

The source I used indicated that low amounts of carbon dioxide (a byproduct of cigarette smoke) in the bloodstream can keep blood from over-clotting. (EDIT: Five minutes of research has revealed so many conflicting sources that I can't argue one way or the other.)
And I'm not getting a C, as far as I know. I don't know what I'm getting. I don't actually think I got an F on the project, but we'll see.What source did you use?
EDIT: Nevermind.

You don't deserve a poor grade because, while deviating from the letter of the asignment, you presented an additional, alternative viewpoint.

You deserve a poor grade because that viewpoint was unfounded and nonsensical. You tried to argue that there is a "benefit" to smoking by arguing that carbon monoxide decreases the risk of heart attacks, while ignoring that other factors in cigarettes more than offesets this benefit, causing cigarettes to create a net increase in heart attack risk. You provided links trying to demonstrate the benefits of smoking, ignoring that some of those links don't in any way address the benefits of smoking but rather talk about providing income to tobacco farmers (which is not nearly the same thing). One of your links discussing the benefits of tobacco actually discusses its use as an additive in pesticide, something designed to kill.

Your "additions" weren't clever, they weren't well founded, and they didn't in any way actually address the issue in a way that was in any way deserving of a good grade. You managed to find some tangental benefits, but completely and totally failed to take those benefits into context, or discuss how those benefits are outweighed by risks. You didn't do this to try and "prove a point" or show actual real benefits, your research was poor and uninspired, and you generally failed to address the topic at hand.

You deserve to fail your assignment, because you failed your assignment.

My partner and I made a video that was rejected. We used a fictional story of someone who gets hideously burned using tobacco (we used a picture of Freddy Krueger), gets his kids hooked on it (we used a picture of a baby smoking a cigar), and then has to use an iron lung for the rest of his life (we used a picture of Darth Vader). Apparently, this fine art wasn't "serious" enough to communicate the dangers of tobacco.
When asked to do a presentation, there's a difference between being silly and having a joke. I had to do, for my Biology AS-Level, a presentation on AIDS. I started with a clip from Family Guy (the clip with Peter in the barbershop quartet), which everybody thought was funny, having never seen Faily Guy before. But I made sure the rest of it was serious, and, the teacher never graded it. Never mind. The point is, though, that it got taken seriously, but you can still have a bit of fun now and again. Hell, you could have even used a few of those pictures, so long as they didn't get in the way of your research and argument.

If you don't take your work seriously, don't expect to have a good grade, even in PD.

The teacher didn't pick up on the subtlety of the slides that had words on them (I don't think he can read), but he lost his shit completely when he reached a part in the middle where the music cuts out, and you just see me sitting in a chair. I start listing all the health benefits of tobacco. I don't remember what I said word-for-word, but I mentioned how tobacco improves focus, allows relaxation, eases anxiety, and curbs appetite. I mentioned how nicotine can off-set Parkinson's disease. I talked about how carbon dioxide in the bloodstream prevents too much clotting (overclotting is the leading cause of heart attack and stroke deaths).
Instead of being silly, with this one you were obtuse, intentionally disregarding what you were actually asked to do. You can always broaden your assignment to include the benefits, but you can't focus only on the benefits because it's poor science and contrary to your assignment in the first place. Your job was to conclude that medicine is unanamous in thinking that tobbacco is harmful, you thought you were too clever, and you shouldn't get the mark for it.

Then I went on to say: "In a country where obesity is an epidemic, where people eat their feelings, where heart attacks are the number one killer of people and strokes are number three, should we really be beating down a product that relieves stress, curbs appetite, and prevents blood over-clotting? Shouldn't we be making a video on the dangers of hamburgers, and show disgusting pictures of obese people? Shouldn't we tell sad stories about people who ate too many French fries and died from that? No, of course not. That's not going to happen. And they'll never ask you for ID at Burger King, either- because you're old enough to kill yourself with fast food, but you're not old enough to kill yourself with alcohol or tobacco."
The thing is, had you taken it seriously, this might have been a good point to leave at the end for any discussion later in class. Had you not been a smart alec and done your assignment as requested, you might have been able to inspire a discussion with this, which is what the point of these presentations are usually about.

Personally, I think the teacher is an idiot, if all he wants is for you to show a blatantly biased video, with no critical thinking at all, and just Obey those in power, then he isn't worth much as a teacher.

However, I think you should've done this better, and could've handled the whole situation better than going off and acting like a jackass. When you get your grade back, and if you think it's unfair, then you could try to appeal it, but because the first film you produced was basically a middle finger, I don't think you'll be getting far.

Now I know this is suprising for me to say because my dad works for Philip Morris, and while I do think that "Truth" and other Anti-Smoking crowds tend to exaggerate the dangers of smoking (Remember cigarettes containing Zeppelin commercial?), in complete honestly, there is very little health benefit of smoking if any.

Also, you could've researched better and at least show your sources.

My partner and I made a video that was rejected. We used a fictional story of someone who gets hideously burned using tobacco (we used a picture of Freddy Krueger), gets his kids hooked on it (we used a picture of a baby smoking a cigar), and then has to use an iron lung for the rest of his life (we used a picture of Darth Vader). Apparently, this fine art wasn't "serious" enough to communicate the dangers of tobacco.

So, you started by intentionally not taking the assignment seriously and essentially mocking the teacher for giving it to you.


So we replaced it with a new movie. Exactly what the teacher wanted- a cookie-cutter movie, no different than any other movie he'd ever seen before. Lots of gross pictures. Slides in between saying: "You didn't know tobacco was dangerous before, but you do now!!!" "What the fuck was that in slide #2? I don't even know. STILL NOT CONVICED?" "Have we scared you into listening to us yet?" and, my favorite: "The danger is real... just like Bigfoot."

And then you followed it up with second video, equally sarcastic and dismissive of the assignment.


The teacher didn't pick up on the subtlety of the slides that had words on them (I don't think he can read), but he lost his shit completely when he reached a part in the middle where the music cuts out, and you just see me sitting in a chair. I start listing all the health benefits of tobacco. I don't remember what I said word-for-word, but I mentioned how tobacco improves focus, allows relaxation, eases anxiety, and curbs appetite. I mentioned how nicotine can off-set Parkinson's disease. I talked about how carbon dioxide in the bloodstream prevents too much clotting (overclotting is the leading cause of heart attack and stroke deaths).

Then, after NOT adequately meeting the criteria of the initial assignment, you went on a tangent where you attempted to do the exact opposite of the assignment.


Then I went on to say: "In a country where obesity is an epidemic, where people eat their feelings, where heart attacks are the number one killer of people and strokes are number three, should we really be beating down a product that relieves stress, curbs appetite, and prevents blood over-clotting? Shouldn't we be making a video on the dangers of hamburgers, and show disgusting pictures of obese people? Shouldn't we tell sad stories about people who ate too many French fries and died from that? No, of course not. That's not going to happen. And they'll never ask you for ID at Burger King, either- because you're old enough to kill yourself with fast food, but you're not old enough to kill yourself with alcohol or tobacco."

Then you got up on your soapbox and lectured the teacher and other students about something unrelated entirely to the assignment.


Well, that didn't go over too well. My question is: did I overstep my boundaries? Most of the kids thought that it was actually a good point, but the teacher and my parents seem to be of the opinion that I should've kept my mouth shut. Opinions, please.

You didn't complete the assignment. You deserve an F. Twice you turned in videos that were sarcastic and dismissive. Not once did you make a good faith attempt to complete the assignment as given.

If you had taken the assignment seriously, and then attempted to bring up your points about the dangers of obesity, then you would have a leg to stand on. But you didn't. You thought you were clever and more intelligent than the teacher, and you thought yourself above the assignment.

You're not clever. You're hardly the first student to think they were too good to do an assignment, and you'll hardly be the last. You are just another in a long line of arrogant students who think that, because you think you're so much more intelligent than the material you are covering, that the assignments given do not apply to you.

If you had serious concerns about the material presented in the class, there were several avenues you could have used to raise those concerns. Bring it up with your teacher, or the principal, or the school committee/school board/whatever that you believe that the dangers of fast food should have a place in the ciriculum. I doubt you'd get any serious opposition to that. You might have accomplished some good. But you didn't do that. You thought that making a derisive speech at the end of a spiteful video would open up intelligent debate.

You had every right to disagree with the assignment. But, from the sound of it, you didn't really bring it up with anyone that you felt the assignment was one-sided. You just decided you were better than this assignment and could do whatever you wanted.

edit: This felt in order. The assignment was uncreative and one-sided. It's a bad assignment in what sounds like a bad class. You have every right to disagree with it. But your methods for disagreeing were not correct. There is a proper way to dispute something like that, and being a dick and mocking the assignment isn't the proper way. You could have and should have gone about this much more maturely than you did.

The irony here being that I overreacted in my response.

You managed to find some tangental benefits, but ... failed to take those benefits into context, or discuss how those benefits are outweighed by risks.
QFT. It seems as though this was a research task that was not properly researched, and consequently it seems fair to grade it poorly.

Your concern at poor organisational management within the school is entirely justified (all factors being true). I just think you were foolish to protest to the class teacher rather than the institution. Or, alternatively, negligent in allowing your studies to get to the point where you've got so much work to do at the last minute. (Hah, like I'm one to talk posting on nationstates with 3 weeks before my finals). You should have gone to higher management as soon as it became obvious there was a problem. As it was, I think you've just got to either grin and bear it or let a few plates fall to keep the rest spinning.

So I have to take a health class. Despite the fact that we all took an identical class last year (lesson plans consist of: pot is bad, booze is bad, sex is bad), we're now taking health once again. This is a time that could be better used for a study hall. We could all use the time to finish the shitload of work that teachers heap on us at the end of the year, when they realize they're all behind schedule.

The biggest chunk of your grade in health class is a video you make at the end of the year. You're assigned a topic to make the video on (hallucinogens, alcohol, tobacco... yknow, all the stuff you're not supposed to do) and you get a couple weeks to finish. It's pretty easy. All that's required is a bunch of slides with disgusting pictures and slides in between that say things like: "The danger is real," and "Still not convinced?"

My partner and I made a video that was rejected. We used a fictional story of someone who gets hideously burned using tobacco (we used a picture of Freddy Krueger), gets his kids hooked on it (we used a picture of a baby smoking a cigar), and then has to use an iron lung for the rest of his life (we used a picture of Darth Vader). Apparently, this fine art wasn't "serious" enough to communicate the dangers of tobacco.

So we replaced it with a new movie. Exactly what the teacher wanted- a cookie-cutter movie, no different than any other movie he'd ever seen before. Lots of gross pictures. Slides in between saying: "You didn't know tobacco was dangerous before, but you do now!!!" "What the fuck was that in slide #2? I don't even know. STILL NOT CONVICED?" "Have we scared you into listening to us yet?" and, my favorite: "The danger is real... just like Bigfoot."

The teacher didn't pick up on the subtlety of the slides that had words on them (I don't think he can read), but he lost his shit completely when he reached a part in the middle where the music cuts out, and you just see me sitting in a chair. I start listing all the health benefits of tobacco. I don't remember what I said word-for-word, but I mentioned how tobacco improves focus, allows relaxation, eases anxiety, and curbs appetite. I mentioned how nicotine can off-set Parkinson's disease. I talked about how carbon dioxide in the bloodstream prevents too much clotting (overclotting is the leading cause of heart attack and stroke deaths).

Then I went on to say: "In a country where obesity is an epidemic, where people eat their feelings, where heart attacks are the number one killer of people and strokes are number three, should we really be beating down a product that relieves stress, curbs appetite, and prevents blood over-clotting? Shouldn't we be making a video on the dangers of hamburgers, and show disgusting pictures of obese people? Shouldn't we tell sad stories about people who ate too many French fries and died from that? No, of course not. That's not going to happen. And they'll never ask you for ID at Burger King, either- because you're old enough to kill yourself with fast food, but you're not old enough to kill yourself with alcohol or tobacco."

Well, that didn't go over too well. My question is: did I overstep my boundaries? Most of the kids thought that it was actually a good point, but the teacher and my parents seem to be of the opinion that I should've kept my mouth shut. Opinions, please.


I understand your situation and how you feel. It is basically the same story at my school(minus the video). I think it was good that you stood up for yourself, but I think you overstepped it some. You should ahve thought about what you could and couldn't get by with. What you could get by with, use in the movie. What you couldn't get by with, use in the "blooper reel".

Fair play. The class strikes me as uninformed alarmism anyway.

edit: This felt in order. The assignment was uncreative and one-sided. It's a bad assignment in what sounds like a bad class. You have every right to disagree with it. But your methods for disagreeing were not correct. There is a proper way to dispute something like that, and being a dick and mocking the assignment isn't the proper way. You could have and should have gone about this much more maturely than you did.

The irony here being that I overreacted in my response.
Yeah, you did over-react a tad. But your criticism of the assignment that he did make is entirely warranted.

The thing is, BB, you let this get to you. You let yourself get worked up and distracted by the fact that there was something to work you up and distract you. Sure, you'll get your fair share of criticism about how yours was essentially a knee-jerk reaction or a poor submission, but I actually think the real thing you got wrong was that you spend as much time protesting the fact that you had to do the assignment as it would have taken to do it, which is especially foolish given that your argument was that the task was a waste of time.

If, indeed, your time really would be better spent on other things, then you should have simply requested a zero mark and got on with doing those other things. As it stands, that time has now been used up, you'll still get a low mark and you'll lose out on the other things you could have been doing.

So I have to take a health class. Despite the fact that we all took an identical class last year (lesson plans consist of: pot is bad, booze is bad, sex is bad), we're now taking health once again. This is a time that could be better used for a study hall. We could all use the time to finish the shitload of work that teachers heap on us at the end of the year, when they realize they're all behind schedule.

The biggest chunk of your grade in health class is a video you make at the end of the year. You're assigned a topic to make the video on (hallucinogens, alcohol, tobacco... yknow, all the stuff you're not supposed to do) and you get a couple weeks to finish. It's pretty easy. All that's required is a bunch of slides with disgusting pictures and slides in between that say things like: "The danger is real," and "Still not convinced?"

My partner and I made a video that was rejected. We used a fictional story of someone who gets hideously burned using tobacco (we used a picture of Freddy Krueger), gets his kids hooked on it (we used a picture of a baby smoking a cigar), and then has to use an iron lung for the rest of his life (we used a picture of Darth Vader). Apparently, this fine art wasn't "serious" enough to communicate the dangers of tobacco.

So we replaced it with a new movie. Exactly what the teacher wanted- a cookie-cutter movie, no different than any other movie he'd ever seen before. Lots of gross pictures. Slides in between saying: "You didn't know tobacco was dangerous before, but you do now!!!" "What the fuck was that in slide #2? I don't even know. STILL NOT CONVICED?" "Have we scared you into listening to us yet?" and, my favorite: "The danger is real... just like Bigfoot."

The teacher didn't pick up on the subtlety of the slides that had words on them (I don't think he can read), but he lost his shit completely when he reached a part in the middle where the music cuts out, and you just see me sitting in a chair. I start listing all the health benefits of tobacco. I don't remember what I said word-for-word, but I mentioned how tobacco improves focus, allows relaxation, eases anxiety, and curbs appetite. I mentioned how nicotine can off-set Parkinson's disease. I talked about how carbon dioxide in the bloodstream prevents too much clotting (overclotting is the leading cause of heart attack and stroke deaths).

Then I went on to say: "In a country where obesity is an epidemic, where people eat their feelings, where heart attacks are the number one killer of people and strokes are number three, should we really be beating down a product that relieves stress, curbs appetite, and prevents blood over-clotting? Shouldn't we be making a video on the dangers of hamburgers, and show disgusting pictures of obese people? Shouldn't we tell sad stories about people who ate too many French fries and died from that? No, of course not. That's not going to happen. And they'll never ask you for ID at Burger King, either- because you're old enough to kill yourself with fast food, but you're not old enough to kill yourself with alcohol or tobacco."

Well, that didn't go over too well. My question is: did I overstep my boundaries? Most of the kids thought that it was actually a good point, but the teacher and my parents seem to be of the opinion that I should've kept my mouth shut. Opinions, please.

I don't think you over-reacted, but I don't think you were particularly smart about it. A lot of us had to partake in classes that were restricting and often completely designed to encourage an ideology of "drugs are bad, sex is bad" etc.

I always reacted against this kind of thing, and I almost always got As whilst doing so. You could have made a fantastic video that was scientifically correct and creative, that still challenged the views of your teacher and the class. Perhaps you did that, but what you went on to say ruined anything that you did create, making you seem like an apethetic teenager who likes cigarettes and hates fat kids.

Note I said should not is. You're a teacher, should we be teaching kids to think or to blindly obey?

To think, and also to take the consequences of their actions. If the OP is willing to take whatever grade he gets (including an F) without whining and complaining then good for him.

When asked to do a presentation, there's a difference between being silly and having a joke. I had to do, for my Biology AS-Level, a presentation on AIDS. I started with a clip from Family Guy (the clip with Peter in the barbershop quartet), which everybody thought was funny, having never seen Faily Guy before. But I made sure the rest of it was serious, and, the teacher never graded it. Never mind. The point is, though, that it got taken seriously, but you can still have a bit of fun now and again. Hell, you could have even used a few of those pictures, so long as they didn't get in the way of your research and argument.

If you don't take your work seriously, don't expect to have a good grade, even in PD.

Another fair point. The first video was supposed to be serious- with humorous elements mixed in. There were no health benefits to smoking mentioned. It was, like many other presentations, a fictional story that could actually happen. We did almost exactly what you just described, but the teacher didn't see that we were taking the project seriously. He just saw three or four pictures that he didn't think made the cut. He didn't even watch the whole thing before demanding that we redo it.

Instead of being silly, with this one you were obtuse, intentionally disregarding what you were actually asked to do.

The most specific directive we received from the teacher was to use scary pictures. We used lots. We did not deviate, we just put in some facts that the teacher didn't want to hear. And they are facts- not sugar-coated, not embellished, just cold, hard truth. I of course know that cigarettes are FAR worse for you than they are good for you.
People are right when they say that I was just trying to piss off the teacher, but I did it with the truth.

You can always broaden your assignment to include the benefits, but you can't focus only on the benefits because it's poor science and contrary to your assignment in the first place.

Luckily, I didn't just focus on the benefits.

Your job was to conclude that medicine is unanamous in thinking that tobbacco is harmful, you thought you were too clever, and you shouldn't get the mark for it.

How can I conduct serious research if my conclusions have already been drawn out for me? Respectable medicine is unanimous in saying tobacco is harmful, yes. But medicine is not unanimously in agreement with my retarded health teacher, who thinks that alcohol and tobacco deserve the level of demonization they receive. Why alcohol and tobacco, more than any other harmful product in America?

The thing is, had you taken it seriously, this might have been a good point to leave at the end for any discussion later in class. Had you not been a smart alec and done your assignment as requested, you might have been able to inspire a discussion with this, which is what the point of these presentations are usually about.

No one's calling you names. Buttwipe. :p
There is no open discussion in health class, there's only silent, obedient consent with every word of the teacher. There is no open forum. There's just ridiculous propaganda everywhere that, if anything, makes kids doubt that tobacco is bad for you at all.
Screw that. I did my assignment as requested, but my teacher forgot to tell us: "You must conclude that everything I have been telling you all year is exactly correct and there is absolutely nothing good about tobacco."
If he did say that, then you would be right. But he didn't, so you're a presumptuous cock.

I don't think you over-reacted, but I don't think you were particularly smart about it. A lot of us had to partake in classes that were restricting and often completely designed to encourage an ideology of "drugs are bad, sex is bad" etc.

I always reacted against this kind of thing, and I almost always got As whilst doing so. You could have made a fantastic video that was scientifically correct and creative, that still challenged the views of your teacher and the class. Perhaps you did that, but what you went on to say ruined anything that you did create, making you seem like an apethetic teenager who likes cigarettes and hates fat kids.

I've never had a cigarette and I can't stand the smell.
But I do hate fat kids.

I understand your situation and how you feel. It is basically the same story at my school(minus the video). I think it was good that you stood up for yourself, but I think you overstepped it some. You should ahve thought about what you could and couldn't get by with. What you could get by with, use in the movie. What you couldn't get by with, use in the "blooper reel".

It's funny you mention that- that was our original plan. But we were afraid that he would only watch the first part of it, as he did with our first video.
However, at the end of my monologue, I turned to my partner and said:
"Is that what I was supposed to say?"
"No, you got your line wrong."
"What was I supposed to say?"
"You're supposed to say tobacco is bad."
"Oh. Tobacco is bad."
A part I failed to mention in my first post.

The general opinion seems to be that I did something right, but with half-assed research. I do not disagree with this. We made the second video in one day, and I didn't check enough sources. However, nothing I said was untrue, and it was in the middle of a video showing disgusting, disgusting examples of people who used tobacco.

Another generally seen opinion is that I wasn't trying to make a point, but trying to piss off the teacher. This, too, is correct. Making the point was a means to an end, not an end in itself. However, I was unwilling to try and piss off the teacher with anything overwhelmingly juvenile- I tried to stick to the facts. And I did. The things I said were true, but I agree that they were out of spite. And I admit it with pride. Fuck that guy.
I realize that the opinions of other high schoolers may not mean much to you, but generally people agreed that they liked what they saw (cuz the entire class eventually saw the video), and that it made a good point. People looked into the matter.

A third common sentiment is that I think I'm clever, or at least too clever to have to do this assignment. I don't think I'm clever in general. But I think anyone with half a brain is too good for the assignment. So no one has been completely wrong yet.

Except the people who think I deviated from the assignment. The assignment was vague, and I took advantage of how vague it was. I didn't lie, and more importantly (in the context of this argument) I didn't do anything opposed to the rubric. I listed factual benefits of tobacco in the middle of a film that was about factual BAD things about tobacco. I am not biased. I try to be very open-minded. And, with that open-mindedness, I still conclude that cigarettes do more harm than good.
But I wanted to show that they're not the root of all evil, they're just a harmful product that some people choose to use. I didn't say: "Smoke, it's good for you!" I said: "Don't be scared, don't be manipulated, make your own rules."

Personally, I think the teacher is an idiot, if all he wants is for you to show a blatantly biased video, with no critical thinking at all, and just Obey those in power, then he isn't worth much as a teacher.

I'm glad to see so many people agree with that part, at least.

However, I think you should've done this better, and could've handled the whole situation better than going off and acting like a jackass.

Note To Self: Acting like a jackass= not good.
Thanks for that one.

When you get your grade back, and if you think it's unfair, then you could try to appeal it, but because the first film you produced was basically a middle finger, I don't think you'll be getting far.

Incorrect. My first video was the biased shitfest I thought he wanted. However, because of a few pictures that he thought weren't scary enough, that video got the boot. Completely- he didn't say "Edit it," he said, "Start from scratch."
So I gave him the middle finger the second time around- in as honorable a way as I could.

Now I know this is suprising for me to say because my dad works for Philip Morris, and while I do think that "Truth" and other Anti-Smoking crowds tend to exaggerate the dangers of smoking (Remember cigarettes containing Zeppelin commercial?), in complete honestly, there is very little health benefit of smoking if any.

Also, you could've researched better and at least show your sources.

My sources were not directly mentioned in the video- we had time constrictions. Also, I wish I could've researched more thoroughly, but he stopped us after nine days of work and gave us one day to complete a new video. We did the best we could under those circumstances, and tried to get a message out in the process.

youve learned an important lesson.

you dont have to put up with bullshit just because someone in authority tells you to.

which is in fact a very good lesson to learn. though being right while telling authority to go fuck itself is always preferable.

Also it's worth noting, given how...unskillful you were at making the point you were trying to make, I'm rather disinclined to believe that your recounting of the events is a full, unbiased and accurate one.

Also it's worth noting, given how...unskillful you were at making the point you were trying to make, I'm rather disinclined to believe that your recounting of the events is a full, unbiased and accurate one.

I've mentioned as many details as I can remember, and as many as seem important (for example, I didn't tell you which shirt I was wearing that day, although I remember). Accurate? Yes, I've been accurate. Unbiased? No, I haven't been unbiased. I've mentioned time and time again how stupid the teacher is, which is an opinion.
Since it's what you really want to know, I'll just say: I haven't lied in this thread.

So I have to take a health class. Despite the fact that we all took an identical class last year (lesson plans consist of: pot is bad, booze is bad, sex is bad), we're now taking health once again. This is a time that could be better used for a study hall. We could all use the time to finish the shitload of work that teachers heap on us at the end of the year, when they realize they're all behind schedule.

The biggest chunk of your grade in health class is a video you make at the end of the year. You're assigned a topic to make the video on (hallucinogens, alcohol, tobacco... yknow, all the stuff you're not supposed to do) and you get a couple weeks to finish. It's pretty easy. All that's required is a bunch of slides with disgusting pictures and slides in between that say things like: "The danger is real," and "Still not convinced?"

My partner and I made a video that was rejected. We used a fictional story of someone who gets hideously burned using tobacco (we used a picture of Freddy Krueger), gets his kids hooked on it (we used a picture of a baby smoking a cigar), and then has to use an iron lung for the rest of his life (we used a picture of Darth Vader). Apparently, this fine art wasn't "serious" enough to communicate the dangers of tobacco.

So we replaced it with a new movie. Exactly what the teacher wanted- a cookie-cutter movie, no different than any other movie he'd ever seen before. Lots of gross pictures. Slides in between saying: "You didn't know tobacco was dangerous before, but you do now!!!" "What the fuck was that in slide #2? I don't even know. STILL NOT CONVICED?" "Have we scared you into listening to us yet?" and, my favorite: "The danger is real... just like Bigfoot."

The teacher didn't pick up on the subtlety of the slides that had words on them (I don't think he can read), but he lost his shit completely when he reached a part in the middle where the music cuts out, and you just see me sitting in a chair. I start listing all the health benefits of tobacco. I don't remember what I said word-for-word, but I mentioned how tobacco improves focus, allows relaxation, eases anxiety, and curbs appetite. I mentioned how nicotine can off-set Parkinson's disease. I talked about how carbon dioxide in the bloodstream prevents too much clotting (overclotting is the leading cause of heart attack and stroke deaths).

Then I went on to say: "In a country where obesity is an epidemic, where people eat their feelings, where heart attacks are the number one killer of people and strokes are number three, should we really be beating down a product that relieves stress, curbs appetite, and prevents blood over-clotting? Shouldn't we be making a video on the dangers of hamburgers, and show disgusting pictures of obese people? Shouldn't we tell sad stories about people who ate too many French fries and died from that? No, of course not. That's not going to happen. And they'll never ask you for ID at Burger King, either- because you're old enough to kill yourself with fast food, but you're not old enough to kill yourself with alcohol or tobacco."

Well, that didn't go over too well. My question is: did I overstep my boundaries? Most of the kids thought that it was actually a good point, but the teacher and my parents seem to be of the opinion that I should've kept my mouth shut. Opinions, please.

I would say that you didn't go far enough. God I hate high school. they brainwash you there.

I've never had a cigarette and I can't stand the smell.
But I do hate fat kids.

Did I say that you smoked? No. Don't ask for feedback if you can't handle it.

You hate people based on their weight? Now, that's disgusting.

which is in fact a very good lesson to learn. though being right while telling authority to go fuck itself is always preferable.

He really needs to work on the "being right" thing.

*snip*
A third common sentiment is that I think I'm clever, or at least too clever to have to do this assignment. I don't think I'm clever in general. But I think anyone with half a brain is too good for the assignment. So no one has been completely wrong yet.


You weren't clever, really.

It would've been clever if it was good.

Anyway, if you really want people to comment on it: www.youtube.com is your friend.

which is in fact a very good lesson to learn. though being right while telling authority to go fuck itself is always preferable.

yeah. but its hard to tell how right you are when you are in highschool. so on balance its a good lesson.

even if he fails and has to take it over again--although thats a somewhat different lesson.

All I can say is that you should probably stop smoking.

To think, and also to take the consequences of their actions. If the OP is willing to take whatever grade he gets (including an F) without whining and complaining then good for him.

Doesn't seem much like it, though, does it?

No one's calling you names. Buttwipe. :p
There is no open discussion in health class, there's only silent, obedient consent with every word of the teacher. There is no open forum. There's just ridiculous propaganda everywhere that, if anything, makes kids doubt that tobacco is bad for you at all.
Screw that. I did my assignment as requested, but my teacher forgot to tell us: "You must conclude that everything I have been telling you all year is exactly correct and there is absolutely nothing good about tobacco."
If he did say that, then you would be right. But he didn't, so you're a presumptuous cock.

And you're flaming, so knock it off.

And you're flaming, so knock it off.

That makes me wonder how a cock can be presumptuous...

Though I suppose if we stuck a cock in a dark room and waited to see whether it were to crow every morning, even though it couldn't see the sun, we would know.

Did I say that you smoked? No. Don't ask for feedback if you can't handle it.

You said I liked cigarettes. Kind of like if I said you liked hamburgers, but then backpedaled and told you: "I never said you ATE them!"

You hate people based on their weight? Now, that's disgusting.

I was kidding :rolleyes:

That makes me wonder how a cock can be presumptuous...

Though I suppose if we stuck a cock in a dark room and waited to see whether it were to crow every morning, even though it couldn't see the sun, we would know.

Somehow, given the pejoratives applied to various characters in this story, I doubt that a barnyard fowl was the correct context of the comment.

Doesn't seem much like it, though, does it?

Cuz I've done so much complaining about my grade already.
Except that I don't even know what my grade is yet.
Nice.

And you're flaming, so knock it off.

Sorry. I'm just a "smart alec" that way.
EDIT: And I'm a "jackass." I forgot jackass.

Somehow, given the pejoratives applied to various characters in this story, I doubt that a barnyard fowl was the correct context of the comment.

Oh... if the barnyard fowl was not the reference.. then I hardly need to test it to come to a conclusion.

At most I would need to walk down a street or go to a bar.. sit on a bus even. The cock is most certainly a presumptuous 'entity'.

Cuz I've done so much complaining about my grade already.
Except that I don't even know what my grade is yet.
Nice.

Well, let's see.... you're complaining that the teacher is an idiot, the assignment is a waste of time -- that you went out of your way to piss him off, and that you wasted your time doing not one but two videos to show what a waste of time it is... then take issue with people who don't agree it was clever and call them buttwipes and presumptuous cocks.

You're right, doesn't sound like whining about the prospective grade. Nope. How enormously clever.

Well, let's see.... you're complaining that the teacher is an idiot, the assignment is a waste of time -- that you went out of your way to piss him off, and that you wasted your time doing not one but two videos to show what a waste of time it is -- and come on here expecting everyone to pat you on the back and tell you how enormously clever you were and how unfair the teacher is.

You're right, doesn't sound like whining about the prospective grade. Nope. How enormously clever.

You haven't actually read the thread, have you?
EDIT: Just to clarify. I took issue with the guy for calling me a smart alec. Notice how I started the thread with: "No one's calling you names." Should've painted a clear picture of my intent.
Notice also how many of the people who have sent me disapproving feedback have been greeted with this phrase: "A fair point."
I'm not looking for a pat on the back, and I think if you looked into this thread, you would know that. I also think that you were probably in high school once, too, and probably went out of your way to piss one of your teachers off at least once.
I've told you that I'm not going out of my way to look clever, I'm asking for honest opinions. Not someone else's insults.

You haven't actually read the thread, have you?

Right, that's why I've commented on, oh, the things that have been posted here.

Right, that's why I've commented on, oh, the things that have been posted here.

I apologize. When I said the thread, I meant the whole thing.

I apologize. When I said the thread, I meant the whole thing.

Right, and so that's why I've quoted everything I've commented on. Because I didn't read it.


My partner and I made a video that was rejected. We used a fictional story of someone who gets hideously burned using tobacco (we used a picture of Freddy Krueger), gets his kids hooked on it (we used a picture of a baby smoking a cigar), and then has to use an iron lung for the rest of his life (we used a picture of Darth Vader). Apparently, this fine art wasn't "serious" enough to communicate the dangers of tobacco.

So we replaced it with a new movie.... The teacher didn't pick up on the subtlety of the slides that had words on them (I don't think he can read), but he lost his shit completely when he reached a part in the middle where the music cuts out, and you just see me sitting in a chair. I start listing all the health benefits of tobacco. I don't remember what I said word-for-word, but I mentioned how tobacco improves focus, allows relaxation, eases anxiety, and curbs appetite. I mentioned how nicotine can off-set Parkinson's disease. I talked about how carbon dioxide in the bloodstream prevents too much clotting (overclotting is the leading cause of heart attack and stroke deaths).

Then I went on to say: "In a country where obesity is an epidemic, where people eat their feelings, where heart attacks are the number one killer of people and strokes are number three, should we really be beating down a product that relieves stress, curbs appetite, and prevents blood over-clotting? Shouldn't we be making a video on the dangers of hamburgers, and show disgusting pictures of obese people? Shouldn't we tell sad stories about people who ate too many French fries and died from that? No, of course not. That's not going to happen. And they'll never ask you for ID at Burger King, either- because you're old enough to kill yourself with fast food, but you're not old enough to kill yourself with alcohol or tobacco."...Opinions, please.

Generally the point was to piss the teacher off as much as he was pissing me off. I realize what I did was "disrespectful," but it's hard to feel remorse when I never respected the guy in the first place...

No one's calling you names. Buttwipe. :p
There is no open discussion in health class, there's only silent, obedient consent with every word of the teacher. There is no open forum. There's just ridiculous propaganda everywhere that, if anything, makes kids doubt that tobacco is bad for you at all.
Screw that. I did my assignment as requested, but my teacher forgot to tell us: "You must conclude that everything I have been telling you all year is exactly correct and there is absolutely nothing good about tobacco."
If he did say that, then you would be right. But he didn't, so you're a presumptuous cock.

I don't see that I've missed anything there, other than the supposed good points about tobacco that Neo Art and other have already told you aren't so good. But perhaps it's easier to believe that others are too stupid to understand, or too lazy, or just can't read than to accept that some of the opinions you asked for might be that this probably wasn't the most brilliant choice in the world and that your tale doesn't precisely paint you in the best light.

Give it up Kat, obviously the highschooler knows better than the rest of us.

There is a fine line between bravery and stupidity. The OP falls firmly within the former. He's probably going to fail, but it takes some nerve to do something like that, which is certainly an admirable quality.

Give it up Kat, obviously the highschooler knows better than the rest of us.

Undoubtedly.

You're not clever. You're hardly the first
student to think they were too good to do an
assignment, and you'll hardly be the last. You
are just another in a long line of arrogant
students who think that, because you think
you're so much more intelligent than the
material you are covering, that the
assignments given do not apply to you.

Sdaeriji

Who the HELL are YOU to judge, you mindless, conformist robot!!??:mad:

Yes, BB was rather pointedly in the teacher's face, but it's damned plain to me the teacher wanted no high-level creativity going on.
My gosh, maybe the teacher felt (gasp) "inadequate.":eek::eek:
Mustn't have that, now, this well earned mocking of the ALL HOLY AUTHORITY FIGURE.:eek::eek:

And how dare you sneer at one whose living individualist spirit outshines your
drab little mind?

You call HIM "arrogant"??:headbang:

Go look in the mirror and try that again!!!:upyours:

Now, if anyone's managed to survive this damn fool verbal flamethrower
of mine, I will explain exactly why I'm so angry.

I had an early life with a complete control freak of a mother, a church,
and a (failed)marriage that DEMANDED me to be whatever the others involved wanted me to be.

"Don't scrub the kitchen sink your way, do it MY way!"
"You're always misinterpreting what the pastor taught!"
"God doesn't care about your opinion, you're only a puny human being!"

They wanted NOTHING of the talents I was born with, they wanted
NOTHING of what I thought or felt.

And now I have to contend with a University system that forces politically correct speech codes down the throats of students, a "justice" system wherein the judge instructs the jury to conform exactly to the law pertinent to the case, instead of judging the law as well as the case, to test for flaws in the laws...and a mass-media machine that endlessly screams at me to CONFORM, BUY, CONSUME!! or else be considered some kind of low grade freak or hippie.

I'm bloody glad I'm only here on this benighted Earth to observe!

There is a fine line between bravery and stupidity. The OP falls firmly within the former. He's probably going to fail, but it takes some nerve to do something like that, which is certainly an admirable quality.

It's highschool. Not a battlefield.

Right, and so that's why I've quoted everything I've commented on. Because I didn't read it.

Again, just because you quoted certain parts doesn't mean that you've read the whole thing.
I've told you that I don't think I'm clever, and don't put myself above my classmates. I put myself above the class. I think anyone with half a brain is above the class.
You seem to think that I have a narrow perception of people who disagree with me, but I think you have a narrow perception of me. Generally, I like people. And I've been pretty accepting of other people's opinions.
The one post that you've now quoted at least twice is the only time I've actually come right out and insulted someone, and it was because he called me a smart alec. That doesn't make it right or justified, and I owe that guy an apology.
But to say that I insult people just for disagreeing with me is incorrect and suggests that you haven't been paying very close attention to this thread.

I don't see that I've missed anything there, other than the supposed good points about tobacco that Neo Art and other have already told you aren't so good.

What's not so good about them? They're true. I never said the benefits outweighed the risks- in fact just the opposite.
All I did was show that tobacco, like every other dangerous product, is not the root of all evil. Every issue deserves to be argued on both sides. Is that not a good point?

But perhaps it's easier to believe that others are too stupid to understand, or too lazy, or just can't read than to accept that some of the opinions you asked for might be that this probably wasn't the most brilliant choice in the world and that your tale doesn't precisely paint you in the best light.

I never said that. But perhaps it's easier to believe that others are too egotistical, too judgmental, too high up on their pedestal, to sit calmly and take every piece of criticism they receive as gospel.
You think I have some personal thing against people with contrary opinions- I don't. That's why I asked for opinions. You seem, also, to think I have some personal thing against you- I don't. I've argued with you before and I know you're not stupid, because you've made logical points that I couldn't argue against.
I have a personal thing against people who insult me, and who refuse to listen to everything I say before they decide to trash it. If you want to argue, read everything.

Give it up Kat, obviously the highschooler knows better than the rest of us.

:rolleyes: I've been waiting for that one...
EDIT: I also like how you say "the rest of us," which here has the meaning of you and Katganistan. I've noticed a lot of very positive responses here. But those people are probably just dumb highschoolers too... otherwise they'd agree with you ;)

:rolleyes: I've been waiting for that one...

It seems so obvious, surely someone would have said it before...how many pages?

If you are given an assignment you are expected to do it. If you don't do it in the way you are asked to, you fail. That's the way life works.

:rolleyes: I've been waiting for that one...

maybe that should tell you something.

Because, you know, you're really the first guy in highschool to have a complaint about his teacher, parent, principal or whatever. But of course, you're different.

Because, you know, you're really the first guy in highschool to have a complaint about his teacher, parent, principal or whatever. But of course, you're different.

He is campaigning for a Cause.

For all those people fooled by the Authority led by the Man, who tell you smoking is bad for your health.

He is just trying to help the People. To free their minds. To fight the Power.

I thought you of all people would have realized that. I'm so terribly sorry.

It seems so obvious, surely someone would have said it before...how many pages?

If you are given an assignment you are expected to do it. If you don't do it in the way you are asked to, you fail. That's the way life works.

And if I fail, I'll accept that as a natural consequence. I'm not whining about my grade.
All I wanted to know is if I overreacted. But some people don't see it that way.

maybe that should tell you something.

... that some people are so hypocritical that they can attack someone for being on a pedestal, and yet dismiss an argument on the basis of age? Since when does the person presenting the argument make the argument itself any more or less truthful?

Because, you know, you're really the first guy in highschool to have a complaint about his teacher, parent, principal or whatever. But of course, you're different.

Look, I see where you've misunderstood this. I don't think of myself as a rebel. I usually keep my mouth shut in school, and I don't go looking for opportunities to piss teachers off.
I know the kind of kids you're talking about. I don't take them seriously, either. But I'd like it if you started focusing on what I've been saying, rather than whatever image you jumped to when you read the OP.

Since when does the person presenting the argument make the argument itself any more or less truthful?

When the person is a liar.
But I'd like it if you started focusing on what I've been saying, rather than whatever image you jumped to when you read the OP.
Probably this: :upyours:

He is campaigning for a Cause.

For all those people fooled by the Authority led by the Man, who tell you smoking is bad for your health.

He is just trying to help the People. To free their minds. To fight the Power.

I thought you of all people would have realized that. I'm so terribly sorry.

Now who's clever?
Look, I get it. I see what you're saying. I know what kind of kid you're talking about... and you got it wrong.

When the person is a liar.

Tell me if such a situation comes up.

Probably this: :upyours:

Now I know why the "dumb highschooler" comment was made. It's cuz you're so much more mature. :)

Again, just because you quoted certain parts doesn't mean that you've read the whole thing.
I've told you that I don't think I'm clever, and don't put myself above my classmates. I put myself above the class. I think anyone with half a brain is above the class.
You seem to think that I have a narrow perception of people who disagree with me, but I think you have a narrow perception of me. Generally, I like people. And I've been pretty accepting of other people's opinions.
The one post that you've now quoted at least twice is the only time I've actually come right out and insulted someone, and it was because he called me a smart alec. That doesn't make it right or justified, and I owe that guy an apology.
But to say that I insult people just for disagreeing with me is incorrect and suggests that you haven't been paying very close attention to this thread.



What's not so good about them? They're true. I never said the benefits outweighed the risks- in fact just the opposite.
All I did was show that tobacco, like every other dangerous product, is not the root of all evil. Every issue deserves to be argued on both sides. Is that not a good point?



I never said that. But perhaps it's easier to believe that others are too egotistical, too judgmental, too high up on their pedestal, to sit calmly and take every piece of criticism they receive as gospel.
You think I have some personal thing against people with contrary opinions- I don't. That's why I asked for opinions. You seem, also, to think I have some personal thing against you- I don't. I've argued with you before and I know you're not stupid, because you've made logical points that I couldn't argue against.
I have a personal thing against people who insult me, and who refuse to listen to everything I say before they decide to trash it. If you want to argue, read everything.

I have read everything. Your inability to accept that, and to see how your own words paint a certain picture of you that apparently you find unflattering, makes it no less true.

Since when does the person presenting the argument make the argument itself any more or less truthful?

It doesn't. Age, however, is generally a fair indicator of maturity, education, and experience, all of which relate to ones ability to form comprehensive, logical, thoughtful, and well formed arguments.

And considering your "arguments" failed to do any of those, I'd say it was a fairly accurate indicator.

Look, I see where you've misunderstood this.

And again you prove my point by somehow thinking there's part of this I don't "get". You convinced yourself that the problem was with your teacher, not you. You convinced yourself that you should, for whatever reason, disobey the assignment, and thought you were being "clever" when your arguments were, as I said, unfounded, unintelligent, and pedantic.

I didn't make up some image of you, you did that all by yourself, and that image is of the same thing we get around here, a typical run of the mill high school teenager who thinks himself far more clever than his words and actions suggest he is.

I have read everything. Your inability to accept that, and to see how your own words paint a certain picture of you that apparently you find unflattering, makes it no less true.

Okay. I can accept that it's possible I painted an unflattering picture of myself with these words. Clearly, you're not flattered, so it must be true.
You have, however, said things that painted a picture of someone who didn't read the whole post.

You have, however, said things that painted a picture of someone who didn't read the whole post.

and again to my point, if people keep coming up with a wrong opinion of you, perhaps that's due to the way you present yourself.

It doesn't. Age, however, is generally a fair indicator of maturity, education, and experience, all of which relate to ones ability to form comprehensive, logical, thoughtful, and well formed arguments.

And considering your "arguments" failed to do any of those, I'd say it was a fairly accurate indicator.

Failed in your eyes, yes.
Look, is this about me calling you a buttwipe? Cuz I am SO prepared to apologize for that.

And again you prove my point by somehow thinking there's part of this I don't "get".

There is. You think I'm someone who rebels against authority simply for the attention or to fulfill some self-image I have, you think I have an inflated opinion of myself, and you think that I personalize any argument made against me.

You convinced yourself that the problem was with your teacher, not you.

The problem here being that I'd rather have a study hall, that we already know all the crap we're being taught, that we just keep doing the same thing again and again and again... you know what, the problem isn't with him. It's with whoever HIRED him and came up with the idea of this class.

You convinced yourself that you should, for whatever reason, disobey the assignment,

You convinced yourself that I disobeyed the assignment (not that this is possible, since assignments don't give commands) despite the fact that I've clearly outlined many times that my video fell well within the guidlines. Naturally, he was pissed because he wasn't expecting it.

and thought you were being "clever" when your arguments were, as I said, unfounded, unintelligent, and pedantic.

What arguments are we talking about here? What did you dislike about them?
Again, I have to ask if this is in some way related to the buttwipe remark. I'm sure you're not actually a buttwipe. And if you are, you're probably a very, very effective one worthy of respect and admiration :) You are accepted here.

I didn't make up some image of you, you did that all by yourself,

So you DID form an image of me. It's impossible to develop an opinion of me solely from what I've told you. Your own experiences and beliefs enter the equation somewhere.
It's all in the eye of the beholder.

and that image is of the same thing we get around here, a typical run of the mill high school teenager who thinks himself far more clever than his words and actions suggest he is.

Again, you insist on this idea that I think I'm clever.
So it's the end of the year and I did something with the deliberate intention of "sticking it to" someone. That doesn't make me narcissistic, it doesn't mean I think I'm clever, if anything it means I'm normal. Where were you in high school?

and again to my point, if people keep coming up with a wrong opinion of you, perhaps that's due to the way you present yourself.

Worth considering- honestly.
Meanwhile, consider that not everyone here got the same wrong opinion as you did, and consider that this may have something to do with your own slant on the world.
Anyhow. I'll sleep on this.

Incorrect. My first video was the biased shitfest I thought he wanted. However, because of a few pictures that he thought weren't scary enough, that video got the boot. Completely- he didn't say "Edit it," he said, "Start from scratch."
So I gave him the middle finger the second time around- in as honorable a way as I could.

Yeah that was a good way, I myself did stuff similar to that, of course when it came down to the serious side such as tests I would just write what the teacher wanted us to because that was really the only way to get good marks. For crying out loud it is only school (almost a holding pen so to keep you from working down the mines and off the streets) and it's BS social class which you hear about almost every year anyway so have fun with it and if the teacher acts like a dick then treat them like one, when you go to university and work well then it is time to be a bit more serious and do as is requested.

Okay. I can accept that it's possible I painted an unflattering picture of myself with these words. Clearly, you're not flattered, so it must be true.
You have, however, said things that painted a picture of someone who didn't read the whole post.

You know, it's generally not that great an idea to get into shouting matches with mods. They're not the people it pays to be rude to.

Not that Katganistan would abuse her powers just cause you're acting foolish. But someone like me might, if they were a mod.



Oh, as for my opinion... only stick it to teachers if you're going to spend the time and effort to do it right. You didn't. I'm all for ripping into stupid teachers if you do a kick ass job and get your crap straight. That's badass. However, you didn't. Some of what you said was blatant bullshit that I'm surprised you didn't catch yourself earlier.

So yeah, if you get an F, you deserve it.

So yeah, if you get an F, you deserve it.

The guy was asked to make a pure propaganda movie.
He refused.

One can disagree with the method he used, but unless the teacher was planning to make a point to the class like "now you have all used one-sided rhetoric that does not give a fair picture. Such rhetoric is bad, both in a future science career and in real life. Be aware that many people, especially politicians and Fox love to do this though - so be prepared. Stay vigilant !" one must applaud his refusal.

The guy was asked to make a pure propaganda movie.
He refused.

One can disagree with the method he used, but unless the teacher was planning to make a point to the class like "now you have all used one-sided rhetoric that does not give a fair picture. Such rhetoric is bad, both in a future science career and in real life. Be aware that many people, especially politicians and Fox love to do this though - so be prepared. Stay vigilant !" one must applaud his refusal.

I would applaud had he done a good job with his video. He did not. He just made himself look like an ass. Had he taken the time to research properly and not thrown in bogus crap, I would applaud. As it is, I sigh at the admirable intentions, but botched efforts.

You said I liked cigarettes. Kind of like if I said you liked hamburgers, but then backpedaled and told you: "I never said you ATE them!"



I was kidding :rolleyes:

Uh, no, I didn't say you liked cigarettes. I said you come across like you like cigarettes and hate fat kids. It seems this school isn't teaching you to read.

Cuz I've done so much complaining about my grade already.
Except that I don't even know what my grade is yet.
Nice.



Sorry. I'm just a "smart alec" that way.
EDIT: And I'm a "jackass." I forgot jackass.

Acting like a jackass was the actual line, but hey, don't let the facts get in your way. Again.

Okay. I can accept that it's possible I painted an unflattering picture of myself with these words. Clearly, you're not flattered, so it must be true.
You have, however, said things that painted a picture of someone who didn't read the whole post.

You have GOT to stop saying that to Kat -- her JOB is to read entire threads, get it? She's read it all, and will read any more that gets added to it. Her take on this thread and your presentation in it, while her opinion, is in fact based on having read every last word in it.

It's that wholly snobbish (and for your benefit, I'll point out that "sobbish" is an adjective describing behavior, I did NOT call you anything) attitude of "you are posting things that I don't agree with, therefore you didn't read the thread" that is sinking you here.

You haven't actually read the thread, have you?
EDIT: Just to clarify. I took issue with the guy for calling me a smart alec. Notice how I started the thread with: "No one's calling you names." Should've painted a clear picture of my intent.
Notice also how many of the people who have sent me disapproving feedback have been greeted with this phrase: "A fair point."
I'm not looking for a pat on the back, and I think if you looked into this thread, you would know that. I also think that you were probably in high school once, too, and probably went out of your way to piss one of your teachers off at least once.I've told you that I'm not going out of my way to look clever, I'm asking for honest opinions. Not someone else's insults.Uniformatarianism is woefully inedequate for social sciences. Ergo, what is true for you is not necessarily true for everyone.

There is a fine line between bravery and stupidity. The OP falls firmly within the former. He's probably going to fail, but it takes some nerve to do something like that, which is certainly an admirable quality.No there isn't. Bravery and stupidity are by no means mutually exclusive, nor is bravery an admirable quality based on itself alone.

Uniformatarianism is woefully inedequate for social sciences. Ergo, what is true for you is not necessarily true for everyone.

Not necessarily, no.
But I didn't make the assumption based on my own experiences alone, I made it off of what others around me have done, I based it off of stories told to me by older people who have graduated, and off of the common sentiment that people who have never tried to anger a teacher are unusual.

Now. I have to go to school and act like an ass.

And if I fail, I'll accept that as a natural consequence. I'm not whining about my grade.
All I wanted to know is if I overreacted. But some people don't see it that way.

I guess if that grade doesn't matter to you, then you get your way huh?

I often do things I shouldn't because I'm immature. I could probably do things that are equally rebellious and actually change things, but most of the time, I don't think things through.

I think you probably might have actually been able to do something that would have actually made a statement that people who actually cared could have consumed, instead of just pissing off your teacher.

You had a good idea, but bad execution. None of your arguments made up at all for the problems caused by cigarettes. But it was still a crappy assignment, and a general waste of time. I'm also glad that we don't have to make propaganda here. It may inhibit our chances of becoming politicians, but oh well.

Anyways, I wouldn't call you a 'jackass', but, going by what you said, you certainly did overreact, since in order to retaliate for the assignment, and your teacher overreacting, you claimed that the dangers of cigarettes were hoaxes, and made a pathetic argument for cigarettes. I dunno, I think the best you could've done is subtly mocking both people who think that smoking is harmless and the people who generally make all of the 'If you smoke, you'll become yucky' ads (basically, radical anti-smokers. Not their arguments, since smoking is unhealthy, but rather their presentation of it. And, of course, the 'people only smoke to fit in' crap), though still making the presentation a warning about the dangers of smoking, since counter-arguments tend to be worthless.
More importantly, why do you feel the need for people on the internet to determine, from a rough summary of events, whether you overreacted to the assignment or not? It just seems to be acting 'brave', really, though I'm not going to judge you on that.

couldn't you have tried your best at what you were meant to do, then afterward if you felt inclined make a few short movies on what you really think?
Or even make it in your spare time?
It probably wasn't necessary to go against what your teacher told you to do, but hey i'm not the one with all the facts.

Not necessarily, no.
But I didn't make the assumption based on my own experiences alone, I made it off of what others around me have done, I based it off of stories told to me by older people who have graduated, and off of the common sentiment that people who have never tried to anger a teacher are unusual.

*Is unusual*

So I have to take a health class. Despite the fact that we all took an identical class last year (lesson plans consist of: pot is bad, booze is bad, sex is bad), we're now taking health once again. This is a time that could be better used for a study hall. We could all use the time to finish the shitload of work that teachers heap on us at the end of the year, when they realize they're all behind schedule.

The biggest chunk of your grade in health class is a video you make at the end of the year. You're assigned a topic to make the video on (hallucinogens, alcohol, tobacco... yknow, all the stuff you're not supposed to do) and you get a couple weeks to finish. It's pretty easy. All that's required is a bunch of slides with disgusting pictures and slides in between that say things like: "The danger is real," and "Still not convinced?"

My partner and I made a video that was rejected. We used a fictional story of someone who gets hideously burned using tobacco (we used a picture of Freddy Krueger), gets his kids hooked on it (we used a picture of a baby smoking a cigar), and then has to use an iron lung for the rest of his life (we used a picture of Darth Vader). Apparently, this fine art wasn't "serious" enough to communicate the dangers of tobacco.

So we replaced it with a new movie. Exactly what the teacher wanted- a cookie-cutter movie, no different than any other movie he'd ever seen before. Lots of gross pictures. Slides in between saying: "You didn't know tobacco was dangerous before, but you do now!!!" "What the fuck was that in slide #2? I don't even know. STILL NOT CONVICED?" "Have we scared you into listening to us yet?" and, my favorite: "The danger is real... just like Bigfoot."

The teacher didn't pick up on the subtlety of the slides that had words on them (I don't think he can read), but he lost his shit completely when he reached a part in the middle where the music cuts out, and you just see me sitting in a chair. I start listing all the health benefits of tobacco. I don't remember what I said word-for-word, but I mentioned how tobacco improves focus, allows relaxation, eases anxiety, and curbs appetite. I mentioned how nicotine can off-set Parkinson's disease. I talked about how carbon dioxide in the bloodstream prevents too much clotting (overclotting is the leading cause of heart attack and stroke deaths).

Then I went on to say: "In a country where obesity is an epidemic, where people eat their feelings, where heart attacks are the number one killer of people and strokes are number three, should we really be beating down a product that relieves stress, curbs appetite, and prevents blood over-clotting? Shouldn't we be making a video on the dangers of hamburgers, and show disgusting pictures of obese people? Shouldn't we tell sad stories about people who ate too many French fries and died from that? No, of course not. That's not going to happen. And they'll never ask you for ID at Burger King, either- because you're old enough to kill yourself with fast food, but you're not old enough to kill yourself with alcohol or tobacco."

Well, that didn't go over too well. My question is: did I overstep my boundaries? Most of the kids thought that it was actually a good point, but the teacher and my parents seem to be of the opinion that I should've kept my mouth shut. Opinions, please.

I think that you raised a good point. I am sure that you agree that tobacco use is not a good health choice. There are good things about tobacco but there are also bad things and the bad things outweigh the good. If this was your point, and you got it across, I do not see the problem. If you think tobacco's advantages outweigh its disadvantages, I think you might have needed to pay more attention in his class.

You didn't overreact. Your OP makes it seem like you did (the way you described the first project), but what you said afterwards suggests you were well within the project guidelines. Assuming it's all true.

Just remember what type of people those classes are aimed at. Not the types with "half a brain". They're there to put a few memories in you, so when you encounter alcohol, tobacco, and the like, you at least put some thought into the negative effects they have.

It's strange that there's no discussion in your class. Seems like it's not very encouraging of free-thought, instead filling some quota or equivalent. I guess a project might lead the students to come to their own conclusions, as your example shows. It's a shame it's been treated with a harsh response though.

the people who generally make all of the 'If you smoke, you'll become yucky' ads
That would be the tobacco companies.

What an utterly idiotic assignment. You were right to not take it seriously.


And you were right to point out the double standard of demonzing one thing but giving another a free pass.


However, part of sticking it to the man is dealing with the man's retaliation. So if you get an F, well, dont bitch.

Otherwise I applaud you.

Another fair point. The first video was supposed to be serious- with humorous elements mixed in. There were no health benefits to smoking mentioned. It was, like many other presentations, a fictional story that could actually happen. We did almost exactly what you just described, but the teacher didn't see that we were taking the project seriously. He just saw three or four pictures that he didn't think made the cut. He didn't even watch the whole thing before demanding that we redo it.
Without actually seeing the video, it's quite hard to comment further. I suspect a mixture of two things: poor teaching (your teacher should have seen all the video before deciding it wasn't good enough) and poor presentation, insofar as you didn't make it look serious enough and obscured the content. One thing I should have mentioned before is that you have to know which teachers have a sense of humour and which don't. I can think of teachers that I wouldn't have that kind of joke with, and some that I would. This guy sounds like a poor teacher who needs to get a sense of humour.

The most specific directive we received from the teacher was to use scary pictures. We used lots. We did not deviate, we just put in some facts that the teacher didn't want to hear. And they are facts- not sugar-coated, not embellished, just cold, hard truth. I of course know that cigarettes are FAR worse for you than they are good for you.
People are right when they say that I was just trying to piss off the teacher, but I did it with the truth.

Luckily, I didn't just focus on the benefits.
And this is exactly what you shouldn't have done. You should have either seen him after your lesson and ask him to watch the whole video (and if he refuses, go to his superiors) rather than try and play tit-for-tat. To go back to the original point of this thread, this was an overreaction, or perhaps an immature reaction. If you intentionally go and piss your teacher off, you really should expect to be punished for it - you ought to have risen above your teacher's idiocy, rather than use it as an excuse to wind him up.

How can I conduct serious research if my conclusions have already been drawn out for me? Respectable medicine is unanimous in saying tobacco is harmful, yes. But medicine is not unanimously in agreement with my retarded health teacher, who thinks that alcohol and tobacco deserve the level of demonization they receive. Why alcohol and tobacco, more than any other harmful product in America?
Medicine isn't unanamous that alcohol and tobacco diserve the level of demonisation they get because medicine doesn't decide that. That's education policy, and if you feel strongly that there ought to be less an emphasis on the adverse health effects of alcohol and tobacco, you should write to the person who actually sets that part of education policy. I'm not as familiar with the American education system as you are, but it's probably your school board.



No one's calling you names. Buttwipe. :p
Well, you were being a smart alec, unfortunately.

There is no open discussion in health class, there's only silent, obedient consent with every word of the teacher. There is no open forum. There's just ridiculous propaganda everywhere that, if anything, makes kids doubt that tobacco is bad for you at all.
It's not "ridiculous propaganda" at all. Both alcohol and tobacco are, to varying degrees, bad for you, whether you like it or not. It's not ridiculous to expect teachers to tell you that, although it isn't ridulous to expect your teacher to teach better than he has done. There should be open discussion after a presentation, but even had you not decided to piss your teacher off, you might have at least got a few people thinking had you concluded with what statement.

Screw that. I did my assignment as requested, but my teacher forgot to tell us: "You must conclude that everything I have been telling you all year is exactly correct and there is absolutely nothing good about tobacco."
If he did say that, then you would be right. But he didn't, so you're a presumptuous cock.
I'm not being presumptious at all, thank you very much. You freely admit to doing what you did to piss your teacher off, so you must have known exactly what your teacher intended you to do, just as I do. You know that you had to conclude that tobacco was bad for you, hell, you apparently did that in your first presentation. How, then, can I be presuming anything?

Uh, no, I didn't say you liked cigarettes. I said you come across like you like cigarettes and hate fat kids. It seems this school isn't teaching you to read.

Um, see, I never got that impression at all. But Im kind of used to you shoving the words you think people said down their throats and readng between lines that arent there and then calling anyone's reading comprehension into question after they dont jump to the same insane conclusions you do.

You went a little overboard. But I agree with your thinking. The class was improperly taught and designed.

My high school didn't have a full health class - in Biology, Mondays were reserved for "health" issues.

And I've never intentionally tried to piss off the teacher. Mainly because I've never met a teacher I thought deserved it. If I ever do, believe me, it will be WAR. And NSG will get front seats to the action.

I do have a similar story - in my University Experience class, we had to do presentations at the end. One group did a presentation on the class itself - how University Experience is taught. They concluded that the class should be eliminated, since the benefits it provides do not outweigh the problems it causes. However, given that they fulfilled the assignment, and the teacher wasn't unreasonable, they probably got a decent grade.

What an utterly idiotic assignment. You were right to not take it seriously.


And you were right to point out the double standard of demonzing one thing but giving another a free pass.


However, part of sticking it to the man is dealing with the man's retaliation. So if you get an F, well, dont bitch.

Otherwise I applaud you.

I don't plan to bitch- my partner and I agreed that any grade we receive is a price worth paying.
It's also interesting that the teacher is taking so long to grade it, rather than just failing it right away. If he actually takes it seriously, then I may have been premature in my judgment of him, and may even owe him an apology. We'll see.

Without actually seeing the video, it's quite hard to comment further. I suspect a mixture of two things: poor teaching (your teacher should have seen all the video before deciding it wasn't good enough) and poor presentation, insofar as you didn't make it look serious enough and obscured the content. One thing I should have mentioned before is that you have to know which teachers have a sense of humour and which don't. I can think of teachers that I wouldn't have that kind of joke with, and some that I would. This guy sounds like a poor teacher who needs to get a sense of humour.

You're right. That is definitely something I should've considered beforehand.

And this is exactly what you shouldn't have done. You should have either seen him after your lesson and ask him to watch the whole video (and if he refuses, go to his superiors) rather than try and play tit-for-tat. To go back to the original point of this thread, this was an overreaction, or perhaps an immature reaction. If you intentionally go and piss your teacher off, you really should expect to be punished for it - you ought to have risen above your teacher's idiocy, rather than use it as an excuse to wind him up.

Well put. That's a good point.

Medicine isn't unanamous that alcohol and tobacco diserve the level of demonisation they get because medicine doesn't decide that. That's education policy, and if you feel strongly that there ought to be less an emphasis on the adverse health effects of alcohol and tobacco, you should write to the person who actually sets that part of education policy. I'm not as familiar with the American education system as you are, but it's probably your school board.

I hate turning small issues into issues known across the city. I also hate leaving work to others when there exists a far more satisfying option: dealing with the problem myself.

Well, you were being a smart alec, unfortunately.

You say it like it's a bad thing.

It's not "ridiculous propaganda" at all. Both alcohol and tobacco are, to varying degrees, bad for you, whether you like it or not.

I realize that, and I don't use either one.
However, the propaganda is present in my school, and it is ridiculous. They show pictures of the most insane deformities caused by tobacco, and without putting these pictures and videos into context, they make it seem as if these things happen to everyone. I have known many people who chewed tobacco for years and their cheeks are NOT the size of baseballs. They didn't have their jaws cut off. The only noticeable effects are bad breath and teeth that are a bit less white than the average non-chewer.
Outrageous, embellished stories are told to us, and the most extremely revolting pictures are shown to us and presented as the norm, with no other view presented in contrast.

It's not ridiculous to expect teachers to tell you that, although it isn't ridulous to expect your teacher to teach better than he has done. There should be open discussion after a presentation, but even had you not decided to piss your teacher off, you might have at least got a few people thinking had you concluded with what statement.

The class did start thinking. Even the two nerdy girls in our group who are dead-set on straight-A's all through high school agreed to let us do this, at the risk of their own grade, because they thought it was a good point.

I'm not being presumptious at all, thank you very much. You freely admit to doing what you did to piss your teacher off, so you must have known exactly what your teacher intended you to do, just as I do. You know that you had to conclude that tobacco was bad for you, hell, you apparently did that in your first presentation. How, then, can I be presuming anything?

You presumed that there was open discussion in class. You presumed that I had any way of starting a discussion other than using a video. You presumed that there was some alternative other than putting this right in my video.
You are not, however, a cock :). I apologize for that.
A question I'd like to ask is how it would be any more respectful to start a discussion in class than to just put my opinion on the video. If I say all the good things about tobacco in person, am I being less of a smart alec than if I said them on camera?

EDIT: And, not that it's super-important, but it's spelled presumptuous. In case you ever have to use that word again.

You know, it's generally not that great an idea to get into shouting matches with mods. They're not the people it pays to be rude to.

This is a surprisingly typical attitude with people who have reacted negatively to this thread. That is, they think that disagreeing with your "betters" is being rude. Or being a smart alec. Or being an ass.

Not that Katganistan would abuse her powers just cause you're acting foolish. But someone like me might, if they were a mod.

Then we can only hope you never become one.

Oh, as for my opinion... only stick it to teachers if you're going to spend the time and effort to do it right. You didn't.

What would have been doing it "right" according to you? Say, going onto websites and looking up facts, verifying these facts with other websites, then including these facts in my presentation?

I'm all for ripping into stupid teachers if you do a kick ass job and get your crap straight. That's badass. However, you didn't. Some of what you said was blatant bullshit that I'm surprised you didn't catch yourself earlier.

I might have been incorrect. What was bullshit?

So yeah, if you get an F, you deserve it.

I expect an F. I don't know if I deserve one. If my information is really as bad as you say, then I definitely do deserve an F. I'd like to see some contrary evidence.

An honest comparison of the pros and cons of smoking is far, far more effective to dissuade people from doing it than a one sided, clearly biased account. If you only mention the bad stuff, people will simply not believe you.
Was it meant to dissuade people from smoking?

What an utterly idiotic assignment. You were right to not take it seriously.


And you were right to point out the double standard of demonzing one thing but giving another a free pass.


However, part of sticking it to the man is dealing with the man's retaliation. So if you get an F, well, dont bitch.

See, maybe I'm some sort of genius or something(I doubt it, but whatever), because I can see a far better way of going about this whole thing than just 'sticking it to the man'. If you have a problem with the assignment you've been given then explain that problem to your teacher. If you make a good case and the teacher is reasonable you'll get a different assignment. If not you may as well do the one you have.

Good Job.

Nothing is better than well-informed and well-placed sarcasm.

I expect an F. I don't know if I deserve one. If my information is really as bad as you say, then I definitely do deserve an F. I'd like to see some contrary evidence.

so, bb, now that you have read everyone's comments on your story, do YOU think you over reacted? what do YOU think you did right and wrong in this situation?

Um, see, I never got that impression at all. But Im kind of used to you shoving the words you think people said down their throats and readng between lines that arent there and then calling anyone's reading comprehension into question after they dont jump to the same insane conclusions you do.

Look, I said:

You could have made a fantastic video that was scientifically correct and creative, that still challenged the views of your teacher and the class. Perhaps you did that, but what you went on to say ruined anything that you did create, making you seem like an apethetic teenager who likes cigarettes and hates fat kids.

And that's exactly what I think the video (as he describes it) would have done. I didn't say that he smoked. I said it made him seem "like an apethetic teenager who likes cigarettes and hates fat kids". It seems this way because he didn't do it well. He reacted against authority, which I applaud, but it doesn't seem that it was well researched or well put together, and his rant about obsesity simply would've made him look that way.

But thanks for playing.

Look, I said:



And that's exactly what I think the video (as he describes it) would have done. I didn't say that he smoked. I said it made him seem "like an apethetic teenager who likes cigarettes and hates fat kids". It seems this way because he didn't do it well. He reacted against authority, which I applaud, but it doesn't seem that it was well researched or well put together, and his rant about obsesity simply would've made him look that way.

But thanks for playing.

An apathetic kid would've taken the path of least resistance and half-assed his way to an A by doing exactly what the teacher wanted.

But thanks for playing.

This is a surprisingly typical attitude with people who have reacted negatively to this thread. That is, they think that disagreeing with your "betters" is being rude. Or being a smart alec. Or being an ass.

You agreed to the rules of the forum when you signed up for the site. Break the rules, it is your fault, and your fault alone if the Mod-hammer comes down on you. By all means, we're not saying "lock step", just that pissing off the mods is not a good idea. That is, if you want to stay here for very long.


What would have been doing it "right" according to you? Say, going onto websites and looking up facts, verifying these facts with other websites, then including these facts in my presentation?

Websites? No. Peer reviewed work. Also, not including your sarcastic little comments in the video would be a start. You specifically stated that you are trying to piss off your teacher, however you then go on to say that you tried to make a point. However valid a point is, it is completely nullified with the intent of the video, that is to piss off the teacher. You weren't being "rebellious" as rebelling usually has a point other than just pissing off the "man"(Because face it: THat WAS your point, when you get down to it. You were just using the other info to get to this). Some are calling you brave... I wouldn't say that. I'd say gutsy, yes, but brave? Pft. It takes more than trying to piss off a teacher to brave.


I expect an F. I don't know if I deserve one. If my information is really as bad as you say, then I definitely do deserve an F. I'd like to see some contrary evidence.

I'd say you deserve an F. D at most. Your blatant disregard for the assignment aside, you appear to have made a poor attempt at simply just pissing off the teacher, with a poorly made movie with poor researched facts that are poorly presented.

An apathetic kid would've taken the path of least resistance and half-assed his way to an A by doing exactly what the teacher wanted.

But thanks for playing.

Not quite. Apathy basically means you don't care. He is saying you are apathetic to your grade, or at least make it seem as such. A person who doesn't care about the final grades will likely just do whatever they want with an assignment, as they just don't care.

Get it?

so, bb, now that you have read everyone's comments on your story, do YOU think you over reacted? what do YOU think you did right and wrong in this situation?

The thing about obesity made my point easy to lose. The point I wanted to make was not that people should stop eating hamburgers and start smoking, because cigarettes are more healthy.

The point was that there are other things out there that are killing more Americans than cigarettes, and we're not doing videos on them. Instead, we do the same old shit that we've been learning about for ages and ages and ages. And on top of that, we're expected to regurgitate the same embellished, fear-mongering bull that we see on disgusting posters (you know... the ones that show someone whose throat is cut out, and then read in big letters: "The tobacco industry wants you next."), and pass it off as truth.

Aside from the rant on obesity, which, as AP pointed out, may have painted a bad picture, I regret absolutely nothing and would do it again if I could.

Now who's clever?
Look, I get it. I see what you're saying. I know what kind of kid you're talking about... and you got it wrong.
Okay.
Tell me if such a situation comes up.

Sometimes it is hard to tell if someone is lying, but I'll notify you immediately.
Now I know why the "dumb highschooler" comment was made. It's cuz you're so much more mature. :)
I guess you missed my point.

This -> :upyours:
Is likely the image of you that Neo Art pictured upon reading the OP.

The thing about obesity made my point easy to lose. The point I wanted to make was not that people should stop eating hamburgers and start smoking, because cigarettes are more healthy.

Not as bad does not equal more healthy. And even so, that is debatable. Smoking is a factor in a lot of things, even heart disease. Basically, what you are claiming here is not backed up at all. Where's your hard data? Your research? Non-existent.


The point was that there are other things out there that are killing more Americans than cigarettes, and we're not doing videos on them. Instead, we do the same old shit that we've been learning about for ages and ages and ages. And on top of that, we're expected to regurgitate the same embellished, fear-mongering bull that we see on disgusting posters (you know... the ones that show someone whose throat is cut out, and then read in big letters: "The tobacco industry wants you next."), and pass it off as truth.

That would have been a point you should have made *before* the video. Ask if you could do a video on other health risks than tobacco. But you didn't. You see, this is where "planning" comes into play.

I hate turning small issues into issues known across the city. I also hate leaving work to others when there exists a far more satisfying option: dealing with the problem myself.
You aren't dealing with the problem at all, directly or indirectly. How will your game of tit-for-tat, which is what you did, change education policy, as compared to making policymakers aware of your concerns with it? If anything, you're not dealing with the problem, you're leaving future generations to have to deal with it.

You say it like it's a bad thing.
Trying to be clever purely to piss people off is a bad thing in this context.

I realize that, and I don't use either one.
I'm not saying you shouldn't. Smoking is a no-no (to me) but drinking is fine so long as you don't let it impact upon your health.


However, the propaganda is present in my school, and it is ridiculous. They show pictures of the most insane deformities caused by tobacco, and without putting these pictures and videos into context, they make it seem as if these things happen to everyone. I have known many people who chewed tobacco for years and their cheeks are NOT the size of baseballs. They didn't have their jaws cut off. The only noticeable effects are bad breath and teeth that are a bit less white than the average non-chewer.
Outrageous, embellished stories are told to us, and the most extremely revolting pictures are shown to us and presented as the norm, with no other view presented in contrast.
Of course, the job of your health class is to put you off smoking by showing what can happen if you smoke, in the same way we (and you probably) got shown people's genetalia in varying stages of various sexually transmitted diseases in order to show you what can happen if you have promiscuous unprotected sex. I seriosuly doubt that any teacher in any health class claimed that you will get lung cancer, or any other disease, if you smoke or chew tobacco, which would be factually incorrect. However, I have no problem with showing kids what can happen through drink, drugs and sex, although I would prefer it if they were also taught how to do so safely.

The class did start thinking. Even the two nerdy girls in our group who are dead-set on straight-A's all through high school agreed to let us do this, at the risk of their own grade, because they thought it was a good point.
You didn't need to go out of your way to piss off your teacher to do that, though. There are far better ways to get your point about fatty food accross.

You presumed that there was open discussion in class. You presumed that I had any way of starting a discussion other than using a video. You presumed that there was some alternative other than putting this right in my video.
Yes, I did presume that there was an alternative, and I outlined them in a previous post. Go and talk to your damned teacher rather than wind him up.

You are not, however, a cock :). I apologize for that.
I've been called worse in person.

A question I'd like to ask is how it would be any more respectful to start a discussion in class than to just put my opinion on the video. If I say all the good things about tobacco in person, am I being less of a smart alec than if I said them on camera?
It's a question of presentation and context. There's nothing wrong with stating the medical benefits of tobacco, you just have to do it in the right way. A video of you in a chair rattling off a list in a way designed to provoke a reaction is not a good way to do it, and you know it, because you did it. The correct way to have done it would have been to analyse the negative and positive effects and conclude, with the full force of modern medical thinking, that it's bad for your health.

Of course, had you gone to your teacher in the first place instead of making the video again, this becomes a moot point.

EDIT: And, not that it's super-important, but it's spelled presumptuous. In case you ever have to use that word again.
I don't spell-check my posts, but I can list your grammar mistakes if you like.:)

The thing about obesity made my point easy to lose. The point I wanted to make was not that people should stop eating hamburgers and start smoking, because cigarettes are more healthy.

The point was that there are other things out there that are killing more Americans than cigarettes, and we're not doing videos on them. Instead, we do the same old shit that we've been learning about for ages and ages and ages. And on top of that, we're expected to regurgitate the same embellished, fear-mongering bull that we see on disgusting posters (you know... the ones that show someone whose throat is cut out, and then read in big letters: "The tobacco industry wants you next."), and pass it off as truth.

Aside from the rant on obesity, which, as AP pointed out, may have painted a bad picture, I regret absolutely nothing and would do it again if I could.

how long did you have to put together the 2nd video?

im thinking that no video had much of a chance to be good because there wasnt enough time to get it done anyway.

Not as bad does not equal more healthy. And even so, that is debatable. Smoking is a factor in a lot of things, even heart disease. Basically, what you are claiming here is not backed up at all. Where's your hard data? Your research? Non-existent.

What I said was: the point is NOT that smoking is more healthy. I reread the sentence and I see how it could be viewed your way.
Cigarettes are not more healthy and I know that.

That would have been a point you should have made *before* the video. Ask if you could do a video on other health risks than tobacco. But you didn't. You see, this is where "planning" comes into play.

We were assigned a video on tobacco. He scrapped our first video after nine days of work and gave us one day to make a new one. How much planning could we have done?

You aren't dealing with the problem at all, directly or indirectly. How will your game of tit-for-tat, which is what you did, change education policy, as compared to making policymakers aware of your concerns with it? If anything, you're not dealing with the problem, you're leaving future generations to have to deal with it.

What problem are we talking about?

Trying to be clever purely to piss people off is a bad thing in this context.

Why in this context?

I'm not saying you shouldn't. Smoking is a no-no (to me) but drinking is fine so long as you don't let it impact upon your health.

Drinking's not fine at my age.

You didn't need to go out of your way to piss off your teacher to do that, though. There are far better ways to get your point about fatty food accross.

Fatty food was one of numerous other things in America that kill people. Like cars and guns. I picked fatty foods because they kill more people than cigarettes do, while cars and guns don't even skim the surface.

Yes, I did presume that there was an alternative, and I outlined them in a previous post. Go and talk to your damned teacher rather than wind him up.

Your alternative is non-existent. He's not open to debate, and the class is not open to discussion.

I've been called worse in person.

That's... a relief?

Of course, had you gone to your teacher in the first place instead of making the video again, this becomes a moot point.

As I've stated before, there was no time to do such a thing, and the man is not one to reason with. When we explained that our first video was a serious one with a few humorous elements mixed in, our teacher dismissed us immediately and said he wasn't going to argue.
You had no way of knowing this, but of course, if you had asked me in the first place instead of being presumptuous (which you are, once again), it would not be an issue.

I don't spell-check my posts, but I can list your grammar mistakes if you like.:)

My comment wasn't designed as an insult. You had just misspelled the word presumptuous consistently, and I thought maybe you wanted to know.
If it makes you happy, then go ahead and list my grammar mistakes. I'm sure my posts are chock-full of them.

Okay.

Glad that's straightened out.

Sometimes it is hard to tell if someone is lying, but I'll notify you immediately.

Okay.

I guess you missed my point.

This -> :upyours:
Is likely the image of you that Neo Art pictured upon reading the OP.

Yep, I missed your point. Sorry.

That would be the tobacco companies.
At least over here, it's generally random anti-smoking organizations that make those ads. It's generally a bunch of scary photos and 'If you take cigarettes, you'll become like this!' stuff.

Fatty food was one of numerous other things in America that kill people. Like cars and guns. I picked fatty foods because they kill more people than cigarettes do, while cars and guns don't even skim the surface.
Do they? Any research? Although I'm skeptic of that being true, I still appreciate that you stand up against them, to show another side of the discussion. It feels good to diss teachers like that, doesn't it :p

Fatty food was one of numerous other things in America that kill people. Like cars and guns. I picked fatty foods because they kill more people than cigarettes do, while cars and guns don't even skim the surface.


Cigarrettes remain not only a masive threat to life (by 2020, 2 million people a year will die from ciggies, as the US have forced Chinese to start up- representing the greaest cause of death of any kind) but a much greater one than guns, cars or (particularly) fatty foods. the effects of which are greatly, GREATLY overstated.

Cigarrettes remain not only a masive threat to life (by 2020, 2 million people a year will die from ciggies, as the US have forced Chinese to start up- representing the greaest cause of death of any kind) but a much greater one than guns, cars or (particularly) fatty foods. the effects of which are greatly, GREATLY overstated.
I won't say the latter so fast, the problem is mainly quantity with fatty foods. Lots of hamburgers and stuff like that still clog up your arteries, and then you can really use an artery bypass ;)

Cigarettes are good form of population control.

Though, they should mke them more addictive and slightly more toxic.

Cigarettes are good form of population control.

Though, they should mke them more addictive and slightly more toxic.No they're not. The sick smokers end up costing the country an unproportional amount.

No they're not. The sick smokers end up costing the country an unproportional amount.

Source? As far as I know, smokers don't live as long as non-smokers on average, and in the extra years, non-smokers will probably be able to make up for smokers costing more in healthcare. But, again, I can't find any links on this, so one would help...

Also, fat kills more people than ciggies?

No they're not. The sick smokers end up costing the country an unproportional amount.

Unless we decide to stop caring for them. After all, nobody forced them to smoke.

*is well aware of the slippery slope this leads to, and is not entirely serious*

No they're not. The sick smokers end up costing the country an unproportional amount.

Well...

1. Cigarette tax brings in more money than goes into health care of smoking induced diseases.

2. Cigarette smokers die younger therefore will lead more productive lives relative to non-smokers: A non-smoker dying at the age of 80 will have over a decade of nonproductiveness and more age bourne illnesses and costs vs smoker dying from cancer at the age of 50 who might be off in under a year.

3. In 3rd world countries the health care system is not excessively burdened by long term diseases because short term ills take all the resources.

I'm suggesting that if we export tobacco products to 3rd world which cause death in a decade or so we solve a lot of the overpopulation crisis and if we target age of 45-50 in 1st world countries we solve big portion of pollution & resource expenditure problems while also avoiding pension problems.


Here's a few links:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1442555.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/background_briefings/smoking/86599.stm

And a quotes from the latter (albeit it's an old link):
Smoking costs the NHS between £1.4bn and £1.7bn a year, according to the most recent research.
...
...
They calculated the average lifetime costs of a smoking man to be $72,700 - much less than $83,400 for the non-smoking man.
...
...
The UK Government should raise £8.9bn from tobacco duty in 1998/99.

Well...

1. Cigarette tax brings in more money than goes into health care of smoking induced diseases.

Does this include the diseases caused by "second hand smoke" (people who do not smoke themselves but spend time in the vicinity of smokers) ?

Does this include the diseases caused by "second hand smoke" (people who do not smoke themselves but spend time in the vicinity of smokers) ?

In the latter article I quoted the numbers, in 98/99, were roughly ~6-7 billion £ per year in favour of smoking in UK. Even if that failed to take into account second hand smoke - which SHOULD be highly restricted (I'm for smoking restrictions) - I fail to see how the costs of second hand smoking could be 3-4 times the cost of actual smoking.

edit:
There have been newer studies made but couldn't locate them with quick googling.

Do they? Any research? Although I'm skeptic of that being true, I still appreciate that you stand up against them, to show another side of the discussion. It feels good to diss teachers like that, doesn't it :p

It does. But only the ones that deserve it.
And yes, car crashes only account for about 2% of yearly deaths in America. Guns... even less, and most gun deaths are suicides.

Well...

1. Cigarette tax brings in more money than goes into health care of smoking induced diseases.

2. Cigarette smokers die younger therefore will lead more productive lives relative to non-smokers: A non-smoker dying at the age of 80 will have over a decade of nonproductiveness and more age bourne illnesses and costs vs smoker dying from cancer at the age of 50 who might be off in under a year.

3. In 3rd world countries the health care system is not excessively burdened by long term diseases because short term ills take all the resources.

I'm suggesting that if we export tobacco products to 3rd world which cause death in a decade or so we solve a lot of the overpopulation crisis and if we target age of 45-50 in 1st world countries we solve big portion of pollution & resource expenditure problems while also avoiding pension problems.


Here's a few links:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1442555.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/background_briefings/smoking/86599.stm

And a quotes from the latter (albeit it's an old link):
Smoking costs the NHS between £1.4bn and £1.7bn a year, according to the most recent research.
...
...
They calculated the average lifetime costs of a smoking man to be $72,700 - much less than $83,400 for the non-smoking man.
...
...
The UK Government should raise £8.9bn from tobacco duty in 1998/99.

That, sir, is a brilliant point that I never even thought of. Kudos.

EDIT: More than one good point, actually, made into a brilliant post.

Cigarrettes remain not only a masive threat to life (by 2020, 2 million people a year will die from ciggies, as the US have forced Chinese to start up- representing the greaest cause of death of any kind) but a much greater one than guns, cars or (particularly) fatty foods. the effects of which are greatly, GREATLY overstated.

I'm dealing with America, not the rest of the world. No one in China will see my video. No one outside of my state will see the video my partner and I made. Most of the kids in my town haven't seen the video. Only about a quarter of the school has even heard of the video.

I'd also like to know how people in the US (I assume the tobacco companies) managed to force the Chinese to start smoking.