NationStates Jolt Archive

Do you believe that the US government should give aid to citizens(for higher education) who don't sign up for Selective Service, based on moral objections?

Do you believe that the US government should give aid to citizens(for higher education) who don't sign up for Selective Service, based on moral objections?

I think any attempt to tie the educational future of our country to some outdated and utterly archaic notion of forcing individuals to register for a draft is disgusting and, frankly, anyone who does support it should be ashamed.

I think there should be total Public College, its such bullshit that with the hundreds of Trillions of dollars this country spends that it cant give a little of that to fund public College...

Everyone should have the right to succeed...

actually Consciencious Objectors do sign up with selective service, if drafted they are generally allowed to serve in non combat roles such as medics. draft resisters are different.

No. If you want to get aid from the gov't, the least you can do is say you'll help them out if there is something like a nuclear winter.

No. If you want to get aid from the gov't, the least you can do is say you'll help them out if there is something like a nuclear winter.


If I pay my taxes, vote, contribute to society, and so on, why can't i get the damn funding for not wanting to sign my life over to fight any war some bastards in washington start?

What's selective sevice?

I think there should be total Public College, its such bullshit that with the hundreds of Trillions of dollars this country spends that it cant give a little of that to fund public College...

Everyone should have the right to succeed...

Everyone should have the right to try, but not everyone will be able to succeed. Some will fail. All people are NOT equal.

I think any attempt to tie the educational future of our country to some outdated and utterly archaic notion of forcing individuals to register for a draft is disgusting and, frankly, anyone who does support it should be ashamed.

Yep I am not ashamed. In fact I would support a mandatory conscription of 2 years for the United States. I proudly registered for the Selective Service when I was 18. Maybe some of us just feel some sense of duty or some other pride to our country. I mean my ancestors fought for this country from WWI, WWII, and Vietnam, why should I have to if I am called up to do? I'm not special by any means that would exclude me from it. After all, aren't we all equal?

If I pay my taxes, vote, contribute to society, and so on, why can't i get the damn funding for not wanting to sign my life over to fight any war some bastards in washington start?

I think that's overstating a bit. If the draft comes back, it ain't gonna be for any war some bastards in washington start. It will be for something along the lines of a world war. Are you honestly going to say you want money from the government but yet are unwilling to aid it in a time of war. kind of selfish me thinks.

actually Consciencious Objectors do sign up with selective service, if drafted they are generally allowed to serve in non combat roles such as medics. draft resisters are different.
sorry i was wrong a consciencious object can either sign up or refuse to sign up.

It is perfectly fine to refuse aid for those who do not sign up for selective service.
in majors wars where they need everyone conscientious objectors get put into non combat jobs.

In less major conflicts involving a draft IE Vietnam you simply are not inducted into the armed forces provided you make it clear that you would be a burden to the army, and a danger to your fellow soldiers due to your refusal to fight even if it means you death.

Put it this way, I'd gladly not recieve aid in return for not being potentially drafted one day.

Nope, if they want the cash, they're going to have to work for it.

There's no such thing as a free ride. If there was, Welfare and Social Security wouldn't need tax money.

If I pay my taxes, vote, contribute to society, and so on, why can't i get the damn funding for not wanting to sign my life over to fight any war some bastards in washington start?

Because what you described is a right. Getting money from Gov. Co. isn't a right, it's a privilege.

Want the money, you're going to have to earn it.

I think that's overstating a bit. If the draft comes back, it ain't gonna be for any war some bastards in washington start. It will be for something along the lines of a world war. Are you honestly going to say you want money from the government but yet are unwilling to aid it in a time of war. kind of selfish me thinks.
The government doesn't 'own' me; I don't 'belong' to it. It is there to serve me, not the other way round. If I don't want to fight in its wars, then that is my choice. Selfishness has nothing to do with it.

Because what you described is a right. Getting money from Gov. Co. isn't a right, it's a privilege.

Want the money, you're going to have to earn it.
Paying taxes is a right?

Well, there's a right I'm going to start exercising right away! I'll just ask the Inland Revenue to stop taking my contributions...

Again, the money the government has to spend doesn't belong to it, with which it can choose to do what it pleases. It doesn't go out and earn that money; it comes from us. If we want something in return for what we give it, then we should damn well get it, not be told that it's a 'privilege' that we have to 'earn' to get value for own our money.

Do you believe that the US government should give aid to citizens(for higher education) who don't sign up for Selective Service, based on moral objections?

Hell, I believe people shouldn't be required to sign up for selective service and that a higher education should be free to everyone who can pass their classes (flunk out and you're done).

No. If you want to get aid from the gov't, the least you can do is say you'll help them out if there is something like a nuclear winter.

If there's a nuclear winter I lay pretty good odds on the government being GONE.

Yep I am not ashamed. In fact I would support a mandatory conscription of 2 years for the United States. I proudly registered for the Selective Service when I was 18. Maybe some of us just feel some sense of duty or some other pride to our country. I mean my ancestors fought for this country from WWI, WWII, and Vietnam, why should I have to if I am called up to do? I'm not special by any means that would exclude me from it. After all, aren't we all equal?

Yes, we all have an equal right to NOT be forced to fight a war we don't agree with.

Do you believe that the US government should give aid to citizens(for higher education) who don't sign up for Selective Service, based on moral objections?

No, why should they?

If you don't even sign up for selective service (there is no draft) you should get jack shit from the government.

Every male is legally required to register. But since the government doesn't really prosecute people who don't, this is one way that the government gets people to register. The aid is more of a bonus to people who register rather than a penalty for those who don't.

Yes, we all have an equal right to NOT be forced to fight a war we don't agree with.

Except there is no draft.

I think any attempt to tie the educational future of our country to some outdated and utterly archaic notion of forcing individuals to register for a draft is disgusting and, frankly, anyone who does support it should be ashamed.

Agreed. Condemning individuals for their personal beliefs is sickening and ridiculous

Except there is no draft.

If anything, that makes it even more unfair to tie specific bonuses to this, especially since said bonuses are restricted to males. (WHY?!)

If anything, that makes it even more unfair to tie specific bonuses to this, especially since said bonuses are restricted to males. (WHY?!)

Because women didn't, and still don't really, fight in combat zones, maybe.

That's the only thing I can think of. (not saying that's right or wrong, just sayin')

Well it seems to be the duty of a citizen to the rest of the country. And, as mentioned earlier, people who don't sign of for the selective service are not prosecuted- though on the books I think they could face jail time or a fine, or both. (pretty sure, anyway).

Because women didn't, and still don't really, fight in combat zones, maybe.

That's the only thing I can think of. (not saying that's right or wrong, just sayin')


Wrong. Definitely wrong. Women are not less capable of combat fighting than men. They ought to be able to do everything a man can.

Well it seems to be the duty of a citizen to the rest of the country. And, as mentioned earlier, people who don't sign of for the selective service are not prosecuted- though on the books I think they could face jail time or a fine, or both. (pretty sure, anyway).
That's not the point. I don't mind the Selective Service so much as I mind the unfairness of tying college funding help to it, since such funding is paid for with tax money, and I think it would be rather unfair to cut someone out of a service they're paying money into.

Wrong. Definitely wrong. Women are not less capable of combat fighting than men. They ought to be able to do everything a man can.

I didn't say they couldn't, if you read my post. I said the haven't [should have added historically] and too my knowledge still don't to a large extent enter actual combat.

That's not the point. I don't mind the Selective Service so much as I mind the unfairness of tying college funding help to it, since such funding is paid for with tax money, and I think it would be rather unfair to cut someone out of a service they're paying money into.

Well if they don't serve, or at least sign up for the Selective Service, why should they get the benefits?

Agreed. Condemning individuals for their personal beliefs is sickening and ridiculous

registering for the draft is not agreeing to be drafted.
It is like jury duty, it doesn't matter if you believe in jury trials or not you still got to go report in and make up an excuse about why you cant be a juror.

I didn't say they couldn't, if you read my post. I said the haven't [should have added historically] and too my knowledge still don't to a large extent enter actual combat.

I am aware of this. I was simply stating my own opinion on the matter.

Well if they don't serve, or at least sign up for the Selective Service, why should they get the benefits?

Again, you're missing the point. The point is that the benefits should not be tied to the Selective Service at all.

registering for the draft is not agreeing to be drafted.
It is like jury duty, it doesn't matter if you believe in jury trials or not you still got to go report in and make up an excuse about why you cant be a juror.
No. No it's not. Jury duty does not remove you from your current life and place you in a situation where nigh every action is controlled and your life and limb are placed in serious, twenty-four hour jeopardy.

Except there is no draft.

So there's no need to sign up for selective service, is there?

No. No it's not. Jury duty does not remove you from your current life and place you in a situation where nigh every action is controlled and your life and limb are placed in serious, twenty-four hour jeopardy.

Selective service does not do that. all the law stipulate is you report to the draft board, if you get the letter. If you explain to them why you are totally unable/unfit to serve you can avoid being inducted. also you apparently haven't heard of sequestering locked up in a hotel room No TV(well movies on dvd but no live TV), No internet,and minimal phone (it is supervised) for up to 6 months.

So there's no need to sign up for selective service, is there?

Actually, there technically is. The idea behind the Selective Service is to have a list of people to draft if a draft is called for, such as in a national emergency, a la, say, Russians smashing over the Mexican border or something. (An increasingly unlikely occurrence, but again, not the point.)

Greed and Death: Actually, I have heard of sequestering, and it's only used in cases where the jury might be at risk of being injured, coerced, or perhaps murdered. It's hardly the normal experience of jury duty.

But again, what I was complaining about was tying the specific governmental college funding aid to the Selective Service, not the Selective Service itself.

My own beliefs on Selective Service: I think it should be either abolished or extended to women. (If women want equal rights, they should have no objection to equal responsibilities.) I also think that anyone drafted should only be used in homeland defence, for example, if the Red Chinese or North Koreans invade the United States. Barring that, there's no need for a draft, and if it does happen, there would be minimal popular resistance to a draft like there was in Vietnam.

That said, I registered. I'm, I guess you could say, a whore. I sold out my beliefs to comply with a federal law just so I could get Uncle Sam to grant me aid to go to college. I'm 26 now, and too old to be drafted unless they go back to Civil War practices of drafting 18-45, but I did it to go to college.

Would I serve? Well, if the military actually wants me, fine. I'll understand if the kid down the street doesn't want to go off and fight, this is a very controversial engagement we're in. But now that GWB's gone in and opened up a can of worms in Iraq, we can't just pull out and let it collapse in on itself.

Actually, there technically is. The idea behind the Selective Service is to have a list of people to draft if a draft is called for, such as in a national emergency, a la, say, Russians smashing over the Mexican border or something. (An increasingly unlikely occurrence, but again, not the point.)

Just trying in my "I should already be in bed" way to say Trollguard can't have it both ways. If you sign up for selective service then you sign up for the possibility of being forced to fight in a war you don't agree with. His argument of "There's no draft now" is irrelevant to the fact that you're signing up to be called to fight if/when there is one whether you want to or not.

But again, what I was complaining about was tying the specific governmental college funding aid to the Selective Service, not the Selective Service itself.

Absolutely, it's a shining example of everything that's wrong with this kind of thinking, elitist, protectionist and keeping the poor in their place - working and fighting for those born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

We're supposed to be striving for a fair and equal opportunity society yet those born to poor parents are to be punished.

I can't stand this kind of thinking and, unfortunately though understandably, it's a line taken by those who genuinely do work extraordinarily hard to pull themselves up against the odds and succeed - their hard work is used by those who coast through life as a reason to deny others anything.

Actually, there technically is. The idea behind the Selective Service is to have a list of people to draft if a draft is called for, such as in a national emergency, a la, say, Russians smashing over the Mexican border or something. (An increasingly unlikely occurrence, but again, not the point.)

Greed and Death: Actually, I have heard of sequestering, and it's only used in cases where the jury might be at risk of being injured, coerced, or perhaps murdered. It's hardly the normal experience of jury duty.

But again, what I was complaining about was tying the specific governmental college funding aid to the Selective Service, not the Selective Service itself.


It is also used when fear of news reports might contaminate a jury.
it is rare but it is also rare that a solider is in a front line infantry grunt position, I think something like every combat requires 10 support personnel now a days.

would you prefer the draft work like jury duty ? and just tie it to your voter registration ??


lets approach this a different way ?

does everyone get the same financial aid?No
does everyone even get financial aid?No

Everyone is paying taxes right ? why then does everyone not get equal financial aid? Because being a tax payer is not your claim to financial aid.
your claim is that you meet the qualifications ?
one of these qualifications is income level.
another one of these qualifications is registering with selective service.
These requirements were decided by the goverment of the US.
you don't want these requirements then get people elected to goverment who will get them removed. I might even vote for them.

It is however a valid and legal means to encourage people to do their duty much like tying jury duty to voter registration or your drivers license(depends on your state).

would you prefer the draft work like jury duty ? and just tie it to your voter registration ??

I'd prefer the draft not exist. Do you really want to start the "draft =slavery" "No it doesn't" argument all over again?

Just trying in my "I should already be in bed" way to say Trollguard can't have it both ways. If you sign up for selective service then you sign up for the possibility of being forced to fight in a war you don't agree with. His argument of "There's no draft now" is irrelevant to the fact that you're signing up to be called to fight if/when there is one whether you want to or not.
Indeed. It's part of the problem with the Selective Service.

Absolutely, it's a shining example of everything that's wrong with this kind of thinking, elitist, protectionist and keeping the poor in their place - working and fighting for those born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

We're supposed to be striving for a fair and equal opportunity society yet those born to poor parents are to be punished.

I can't stand this kind of thinking and, unfortunately though understandably, it's a line taken by those who genuinely do work extraordinarily hard to pull themselves up against the odds and succeed - their hard work is used by those who coast through life as a reason to deny others anything.
To be fair, there's only so much equality we can really achieve while still allowing people to have some sort of semblance of a quality lifestyle.

But you're right about one thing: tying the college funding to this is unfair.

To be perfectly honest, too, I don't see a need for the Selective Service anyway. I would much rather that the people fighting next to me WANT to be there rather than being forced there due to a draft. The military already recognizes that unwilling soldiers are ineffective soldiers anyway, and about the only reason we'd ever need a draft would be in the event of serious invasion by foreign powers, at which point we probably wouldn't need it anyway since people would be signing up in droves to protect their homes and whatnot.

In other words, the Selective Service is outdated, pointless, and should be eliminated. (Or at the very least make it equal and apply it to women as well.)

Indeed. It's part of the problem with the Selective Service.


To be fair, there's only so much equality we can really achieve while still allowing people to have some sort of semblance of a quality lifestyle.

But you're right about one thing: tying the college funding to this is unfair.

To be perfectly honest, too, I don't see a need for the Selective Service anyway. I would much rather that the people fighting next to me WANT to be there rather than being forced there due to a draft. The military already recognizes that unwilling soldiers are ineffective soldiers anyway, and about the only reason we'd ever need a draft would be in the event of serious invasion by foreign powers, at which point we probably wouldn't need it anyway since people would be signing up in droves to protect their homes and whatnot.

In other words, the Selective Service is outdated, pointless, and should be eliminated. (Or at the very least make it equal and apply it to women as well.)

World War I and World War II selective service and the draft were needed.
The civil war the draft was needed. selective service exist to make that process easier when it is needed.

I think any attempt to tie the educational future of our country to some outdated and utterly archaic notion of forcing individuals to register for a draft is disgusting and, frankly, anyone who does support it should be ashamed.I find it funny, because over here we don't get asked about registration.

Do you believe that the US government should give aid to citizens(for higher education) who don't sign up for Selective Service, based on moral objections?

Could you explain this Selective Service thingy, please?

Conscription's always a bad idea, and attempting bribe people into signing up for it seems even more so.

I think any attempt to tie the educational future of our country to some outdated and utterly archaic notion of forcing individuals to register for a draft is disgusting and, frankly, anyone who does support it should be ashamed.

I agree. There's no reason for a link between the two. The draft evader can still and still should be able to get an education while in jail. He should not be able to pay any fines with the grants or loans he may receive for education, however.

I think any attempt to tie the educational future of our country to some outdated and utterly archaic notion of forcing individuals to register for a draft is disgusting and, frankly, anyone who does support it should be ashamed.

Absolutely, it's a shining example of everything that's wrong with this kind of thinking, elitist, protectionist and keeping the poor in their place - working and fighting for those born with a silver spoon in their mouths.

We're supposed to be striving for a fair and equal opportunity society yet those born to poor parents are to be punished.

I can't stand this kind of thinking and, unfortunately though understandably, it's a line taken by those who genuinely do work extraordinarily hard to pull themselves up against the odds and succeed - their hard work is used by those who coast through life as a reason to deny others anything.
Not surprisingly, I agree with these two guys.

There are a number of things wrong with the idea behind the OP question:

1) Having a highly educated population and having a fully-staffed military are two DIFFERENT national needs, and they are not dependent on each other in any way. Open access to education for all citizens is a benefit if and of itself to society, and should be supported by the government independently of any other considerations.

2) To force citizens to submit to military service in order to get financial assistance for education is to take the attitude that education is a privilege, not a right. But in the US, since even before the revolution, access to education was considered fundamental to personal liberty -- social, political and religious -- and therefore the ability to get an education is part of the matrix of rights that are natural to all people. Therefore, according to our system of government, the state has no authority to restrict access to it by making demands that amount to "serve the state if you want to get an education and earn a decent living."

3) The OP idea seems to assume that people have an obligation to serve the state, but in the US, the state is obligated to serve the people. It governs by our consent, which we retain the right and power to withhold.

4) Making it a requirement to register for selective service in order to get education financing would create gender discrimination, either against men or against women, depending on how it was implemented. If all government education aid was limited to those who register for selective service, then it would discriminate against women as long as women are not subject to the registration rule -- it would cut them out of of the education aid loop. On the other hand, if women could get education aid from other government programs, but men couldn't unless they register for service, then that would discriminate against men by forcing them to compromise their liberty in a way that women are not required to. And what about males who otherwise don't qualify for military service, such as those not physically fit for service, or homosexuals (as long as the US military continues to be bigoted)? Who do you feel like fucking over with this rule of yours -- men likely to be drafted, or everybody else?

5) Singling out "conscientious objecters" for the denial of education aid would be religious discrimination, since the term "conscientious objecter" technically refers specifically to those who are pacifists due to religious belief. The government may not be obligated to pay for everyone's college education, but it is not allowed to pick who not to pay for based on their religious and/or political beliefs.

World War I and World War II selective service and the draft were needed.
The civil war the draft was needed. selective service exist to make that process easier when it is needed.
The civil war draft was absolutely corrupt -- it specifically allowed people to buy their way out of it for $300, an astronomical sum at the time -- and it led to the Draft Riots of 1863, which killed hundreds and nearly destroyed New York City.

http://www.virtualny.cuny.edu/draftriots/Intro/draft_riot_intro_set.html

Do you believe that the US government should give aid to citizens(for higher education) who don't sign up for Selective Service, based on moral objections?

My initial reaction is to say no.

draft registration functions as a kind of loyalty test for the US government. it has little to do with military preparedness should a draft be necessary.

they already know who you are and where you live. they dont need anyone to let them know.

they dont require females to register. does anyone really think that should a draft be necessary some day that women wont be drafted? thats crazy thinking.

what is the POINT of registering? all i can see is that it is a little test to see if they can make the (male) population do what they are told no matter how useless it is.

it should be abolished as a stupid waste of taxpayer time and money.

it should be abolished as a stupid waste of taxpayer time and money.
You've got that right. I'd hate to be the volunteer that ends up serving with a bunch of conscripts. I think the '70s proved that we don't need a Army made up of draftees. All the years since then have only gone to confirm that an All-Volunteer Army is the way to go.

There seem to be two different questions being addressed:

1) Is selective service/draft a good idea?

2) Should government financial aid for education be tied to selective service registration?

I think question 2 is the one that is relevant to the OP, obviously, and no, I don't think education aid should be tied to selective service registration, for the reasons I gave in my first post. This is entirely separate from question 1.

In re question 1, I am against requiring citizens to register for selective service, whether there is an active draft or not. To me, it undermines the entire concept of volunteer forces, and since the end of the last draft, US military commanders and experts have been unanimous in their praise and preference for a 100% volunteer force, on the grounds, according to them, that it gives a better quality of personnel in terms of willingness, dedication, discipline and professionalism. I see no reason to second guess the commanders on this. But like I said, that has nothing to do with the education aid question.

There's a significant difference between conscientious objector status and refusing to register for the Selective Service. Conscientious objectors sign up for the Selective Service, and should they ever be drafted, then the matter is addressed.

Further, especially for Land Grant Public colleges, I feel that there should be no compunction with withholding funding from individuals who refuse to register.

The government doesn't 'own' me; I don't 'belong' to it. It is there to serve me, not the other way round. If I don't want to fight in its wars, then that is my choice. Selfishness has nothing to do with it.




It is however, selfish to want to take money from the government without being willing to serve said government in a time of need. You can't have your cake and eat it too, as it were.

It is however, selfish to want to take money from the government without being willing to serve said government in a time of need. You can't have your cake and eat it too, as it were.Why do you hate disabled people?

Why do you hate disabled people?

strawman much? I talking about people are able to serve yet just want to take and take w/o giving back. Those people don't deserve aid. It's not like you're signing up to go to Iraq. You're just saying you're there in the case of something like a world war.

strawman much? I talking about people are able to serve yet just want to take and take w/o giving back. Those people don't deserve aid. It's not like you're signing up to go to Iraq. You're just saying you're there in the case of something like a world war.

But in the meantime, you get sent to Iraq -- or Viet Nam, for a historically accurate example. And anyway, how does that address the question of why some people should have to register for selective service in order to get education aid while other people don't have to?

EDIT: So I guess the proper question would be "why do you hate able-bodied men?"

The other issue is the whole argument of "if you want help from the government you should be expected to aid it" argument.

It is entirely correct.

That's what taxes are for.

The other issue is the whole argument of "if you want help from the government you should be expected to aid it" argument.

It is entirely correct.

That's what taxes are for.

Good point. Considering that we've already paid our taxes, the government owes us services such as education financial aid, and has no business demanding more from us to make them fork it over.

Do you believe that the US government should give aid to citizens(for higher education) who don't sign up for Selective Service, based on moral objections?

It's a felony to refuse to sign up for the Selective Service if you are a male US citizen. So you actually end up owing the US gov't money if you don't sign up.

Good point. Considering that we've already paid our taxes, the government owes us services such as education financial aid, and has no business demanding more from us to make them fork it over.
I like you. :fluffle: