NationStates Jolt Archive

So we are often told that porn is bad by some feminists because it makes men objectify women as just objects of sexual desire.

I call crap on this, I would like to see some empircal evidance, rather than hear an argument based on assumption.

Anybody game?:D

So we are often told that porn is bad by some feminists because it makes men objectify women as just objects of sexual desire.

I call crap on this, I would like to see some empircal evidance, rather than hear an argument based on assumption.

Anybody game?:D

My ex liked porn. But, then again, she only wanted me for my body...

My ex liked porn. But, then again, she only wanted me for my body...

win. /thread.

Some feminists defend pornography: "A Feminist Overview of Pornography -- Ending in a Defense Thereof" (http://www.wendymcelroy.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.31)

Porn is visual viagra.

So we are often told that porn is bad by some feminists because it makes men objectify women as just objects of sexual desire.

I call crap on this, I would like to see some empircal evidance, rather than hear an argument based on assumption.

Anybody game?:D

It's bollocks. Men get exploited and objectified by far more than women in these films, and I've been conducting extensive surveys.

Also, I'm a feminist myself, but from the German branch, and we've always supported female actresses, trying to make sure that all safety regulations are observed and the pay is fair.

How about men being objectified as lobotomised cuddable teddy bears in every Disney romantic comedy?:mad:

How about men being objectified as lobotomised cuddable teddy bears in every Disney romantic comedy?:mad:

He got a point. I believe that every male actor has gotten a Lobotomy before staring in a "chick" flick or a Lifetime "movie". Either that or they had something else removed if you know what I mean, snip snip.

He got a point. I believe that every male actor has gotten a Lobotomy before staring in a "chick" flick or a Lifetime "movie". Either that or they had something else removed if you know what I mean, snip snip.

I don't know what you mean, snip snip? No wait, are you umm.. are you talking about their fringes?(I belive they are called bangs, in the USA?(strange strange people))

I don't know what you mean, snip snip? No wait, are you umm.. are you talking about their fringes?(I belive they are called bangs, in the USA?(strange strange people))

I'm talking about their testicles.

And it took only 3 replies to completely kill a good comment. NS has yet to lose its touch:D

I'm talking about their testicles.

Ahhh well thats okay then...no....wait!

So we are often told that porn is bad by some feminists because it makes men objectify women as just objects of sexual desire.

I call crap on this, I would like to see some empircal evidance, rather than hear an argument based on assumption.

Anybody game?:D

I don't have a problem with porn as long as it doesn't depict children doing it. Just because a woman appreas in porn doesn't make her an object if she's doing it willingly.

How about men being objectified as lobotomised cuddable teddy bears in every Disney romantic comedy?:mad:

Hmmm. I agree it always bothered me that men are such dopes in those sorts of movies.

As to the OP, I don't think porn is objectifying at all.

I don't think anyone comes out of porn looking particularly dignified. Saying it's just an issue for women is ludicrous.

I don't think anyone comes out of porn looking particularly dignified. Saying it's just an issue for women is ludicrous.

Yea, especially with the cheesy acting.

"Hey, here's...a...pizza for you."
"Oh...but I don't have any money...could I pay you some other way?"

The acting in porn is so bad, I often just skip to the action.

What?

Don't look at me like that.

Yea, especially with the cheesy acting.

"Hey, here's...a...pizza for you."
"Oh...but I don't have any money...could I pay you some other way?"

The acting in porn is so bad, I often just skip to the action.

What?

Don't look at me like that.

WHO actually even pretends to care about the acting?:eek:

WHO actually even pretends to care about the acting?:eek:

People who have no life?

WHO actually even pretends to care about the acting?:eek:

Actually, there was a time when X-rated films were eligible for Academy Award nomination, and occasionally wom something.

of course, that was old school, when the people were hairy as hell and didn't bend themselves into pretzels for each position...

Actually, there was a time when X-rated films were eligible for Academy Award nomination, and occasionally wom something.

of course, that was old school, when the people were hairy as hell and didn't bend themselves into pretzels for each position...

Yes, but let's be honest... in those days, as nowadays, it's pretty much a case of intellectual dishonesty to even pretend that there is any point to it.

Yes, but let's be honest... in those days, as nowadays, it's pretty much a case of intellectual dishonesty to even pretend that there is any point to it.

Agreed, although there were one or two that really went the extra mile to actually build a story around it.

When I was a teenager some friends and I discovered one that was kinda old, but porn was porn so we watched it. It was called "The Opening of Misty Beethoven" and actually had a full fledged story, acting, even a decent soundtrack. (For which I believe it got a nomination for an scar) The story was sort of a remake of "My Fair Lady" in that this guy wanted to take a prostitute form the street and remake her into the ultimate expert on erotic pleasure. Of course, along the way he falls in love with her and she with him, the movie culminates with the two consumating their love.

There was plenty of sex of course, but the movie was long as hell and actually had more plot than sex overall.

Yea, especially with the cheesy acting.

"Hey, here's...a...pizza for you."
"Oh...but I don't have any money...could I pay you some other way?"

The acting in porn is so bad, I often just skip to the action.

What?

Don't look at me like that.
QFT man, if anything sucks (o ha ha ha) it's acting in porn. Really, natural, real sex is much much more erotic.

I would regard myself as something of a feminist and i have no problem with porn. Though it has to be said that i never watch any porn with men in it lol so I couldnt tell you how the male-female dynamic is depicted in those movies!

From my favorite British TV show, AbFab:

Saffron: Pornography degrades women!

Patsy: What do you mean, she's the one with the whip!

Seriously, feminist organizations lost their way a long time ago and have yet to find their moral footing in today's culture. Back when porn actresses were so high on drugs and paid very little, or at all, they might have had a valid point (somewhat). Today women run some of the most successful portions of the industry and have more legal control of their own images.

I don't have a problem with porn as long as it doesn't depict children doing it. Just because a woman appreas in porn doesn't make her an object if she's doing it willingly.

And even if she is an object, the p0rno girls don't seem to mind....at all...

The amazing thing to me is 1. the sheer VOLUME of porn on the internet, all of it free if you're even halfway good with computers...

2. the fact that it keeps getting produced.

You'd think that there was enough porn already on the internet for everyone to have more than they could possibly need. But somehow there's still a market for it, worth billions of dollars, even though nobody I know actually pays for it and the market it clearly already saturated.

It's a product whose use-value doesn't get destroyed upon consumption, and which leads to more consumption. Interesting.

I knew a feminist woman who used to watch porn with her boyfriend.

I don't really care about porn and I don't think anyone else should (unless it's kiddie porn) either. The real point is that we all need to resist tendencies to objectify and remember that we're all in fact real people. So really, it matters more what we do in everyday life than what we watch.

$0.02

$0.02

I'm not paying for that.

From my favorite British TV show, AbFab:

Saffron: Pornography degrades women!

Patsy: What do you mean, she's the one with the whip!

Seriously, feminist organizations lost their way a long time ago and have yet to find their moral footing in today's culture. Back when porn actresses were so high on drugs and paid very little, or at all, they might have had a valid point (somewhat). Today women run some of the most successful portions of the industry and have more legal control of their own images.
Yes, nice way to completely ignore the fact that the bulk of porn being produced isn't in swanky studios. Your smug little blanket generalisation about feminists is as short-sighted.

When discussing porn, you should clarify WHICH porn industry you're talking about rather than lumping them all together. You have production studios with excellent guidelines and working conditions...and then you have amateur internet porn, or porn being produced under extremely questionable conditions. This idea of 'legal control over their own images' varies greatly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

Here is a study (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_4_42/ai_n15929172) on porn in Australia.

I think what we need to be worrying about is not the big studios...but rather, the 'niche' porn, especially that which depicts violence....ensuring that the participants are:

1) not underage
2) consenting freely
3) not actually being unduly harmed

and that the people viewing this are aware that they aren't actually watching someone being raped, etc.

Yes, nice way to completely ignore the fact that the bulk of porn being produced isn't in swanky studios. Your smug little blanket generalisation about feminists is as short-sighted.

When discussing porn, you should clarify WHICH porn industry you're talking about rather than lumping them all together. You have production studios with excellent guidelines and working conditions...and then you have amateur internet porn, or porn being produced under extremely questionable conditions. This idea of 'legal control over their own images' varies greatly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

Here is a study (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_4_42/ai_n15929172) on porn in Australia.

I think what we need to be worrying about is not the big studios...but rather, the 'niche' porn, especially that which depicts violence....ensuring that the participants are:

1) not underage
2) consenting freely
3) not actually being unduly harmed

and that the people viewing this are aware that they aren't actually watching someone being raped, etc.


There was no female nudity in this post, so I didnt read it.

Seriously, feminist organizations lost their way a long time ago and have yet to find their moral footing in today's culture. Back when porn actresses were so high on drugs and paid very little, or at all, they might have had a valid point (somewhat). Today women run some of the most successful portions of the industry and have more legal control of their own images.
Feminists != Catherine MacKinnon
Feminists != Andrea Dworkin

kthx

and that the people viewing this are aware that they aren't actually watching someone being raped, etc.

I quite like a certain company that always have an interview with their actors and actresses before and after shooting. It makes the porn itself much much better

I quite like a certain company that always have an interview with their actors and actresses before and after shooting. It makes the porn itself much much better

That's exactly the company I was thinking of when talking about good business practices. It's also my preferred site, suprise surprise :D

That's exactly the company I was thinking of when talking about good business practices. It's also my preferred site, suprise surprise :D

You've got good taste. I suspected you might be thinking about them especially from some of your previous posts

There was no female nudity in this post, so I didnt read it.

Shut up, mouth-breather :P

You've got good taste. I suspected you might be thinking about them especially from some of your previous posts

Long-time fan :D I don't bother getting my porn elsewhere anymore.

Long-time fan :D I don't bother getting my porn elsewhere anymore.

I've only really found it within the last few months but the girlfriend loves it too so it looks like i'm on to a winner :p

Long-time fan :D I don't bother getting my porn elsewhere anymore.

Okay, I'm going to need a link.

Not here, of course.

How about people who simply film themselves having sex and then put it on the internet?

Since it's all DIY, there is no coercion, and one can tell simply by watching that participants are doing it for the sheer enjoyment of it.

To me, this does the opposite of objectifying the performers, as one can empathise with the performer's obvious and sincere lust.

Okay, I'm going to need a link.

Not here, of course.

If I knew how to send a private message I would. Can't believe i've been on NSG this long without figuring that out

The shadier parts of the porn industry objectify women, but as long as the women get decent pay and consent I see it as not much better or worse as any other enterprise.

If I knew how to send a private message I would. Can't believe i've been on NSG this long without figuring that out
I sent him the link at UMP.

What are your gf's favourite sites from there? I like the Domme/female-sub site nearly the best, but Dom/female-sub is definitely in the running for #1. I have to admit that I do enjoy the TS site from time to time :D

Anyone being involved in pornography is an individualist decision and the actions of an individual have no relation to their sex, nor does it to their sexuality or race.

I think porn is a good thing, would "femininists" rather have some neo-Puritan society where sexuality is repressed?

I sent him the link at UMP.

What are your gf's favourite sites from there? I like the Domme/female-sub site nearly the best, but Dom/female-sub is definitely in the running for #1. I have to admit that I do enjoy the TS site from time to time :D

She prefers the Domme/female-sub and the Domme/male-sub sites but, like me, she's into pretty much everything that they produce. Some of the TS vids are pretty interesting but, to be honest, there are a few that don't really do it for me. Depends on the performers mainly. Personally I like them all but i've really got a special liking for the Domme / male-sub stuff with one Domme in particular taking the gold medal

Anyone being involved in pornography is an individualist decision and the actions of an individual have no relation to their sex, nor does it to their sexuality or race.

I think porn is a good thing, would "femininists" rather have some neo-Puritan society where sexuality is repressed?

Um...considering the US has a thriving porn industry and nonetheless still has a strong abstinence-only 'sex education' system in place...I don't think you can say that porn = freedom from sexual repression.

I totally read the title as "fetishism and porn" at first.
So who's into feet?

Um...considering the US has a thriving porn industry and nonetheless still has a strong abstinence-only 'sex education' system in place...I don't think you can say that porn = freedom from sexual repression.

Look, I'm a very liberal, pro-civil rights person. And I have a lot of problems with the USA in general, but in comparison to Middle Eastern countries and the like, the USA is pretty good.

She prefers the Domme/female-sub and the Domme/male-sub sites but, like me, she's into pretty much everything that they produce. Some of the TS vids are pretty interesting but, to be honest, there are a few that don't really do it for me. Depends on the performers mainly. Personally I like them all but i've really got a special liking for the Domme / male-sub stuff with one Domme in particular taking the gold medal

Oooh, I wonder if we favour the same Domme...is it the swarthy one who often dresses in what look like army fatigues, only much, much shorter and sexier than actual fatigues? She never plays switch in the Dom site...though there is a hot latina Domme that does switch from time to time...wears glasses sometimes...also a contender. The Domme/male-sub ones can be hard to watch sometimes...owwww...but I have seen a few hot ones, and again, it's because of that particular Domme. She's yummy and mean.

The Dom I like the best is the shaved-head, older English gentleman *le sigh*. And the TS site...yeah, some of them are super hot and some are not...and it really does depend on the scene.

I haven't checked out the 'O' site yet. Oooh, the water bondage can be fun too.

Look, I'm a very liberal, pro-civil rights person. And I have a lot of problems with the USA in general, but in comparison to Middle Eastern countries and the like, the USA is pretty good.

And compared to many western-European countries, the US is ridiculously sexually repressed. Extreme scenes of torture in cinema? A-ok. Sexuality? BAN IT! AAHHHHH SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

Along with 'don't have sex it's dirty!'

Yeah. Just because you're 'better than' someone else doesn't mean you can pat yourself on the back.

I don't identify with myself based on my country or it's decisions.

But there as to be a level of personal responsibility. For lack of proper sexual education, I blame the government. For the ridiculous ideas that sex and sexuality is dirty, I blame the parents.

I don't identify with myself based on my country or it's decisions.

But there as to be a level of personal responsibility. For lack of proper sexual education, I blame the government. For the ridiculous ideas that sex and sexuality is dirty, I blame the parents.

Yeah. Cuz the two don't have any relation to one another.

Nor do we live in society, we just have it, as some amorphous concept surrounding us. Or something.

Um...considering the US has a thriving porn industry and nonetheless still has a strong abstinence-only 'sex education' system in place...I don't think you can say that porn = freedom from sexual repression.

From a historical perspective pornography even seems to thrive when it's forbidden. So I guess a thriving pornography industry is not necessarily an indicator of sexual freedom.
A better indicator would be the legality of pornography, both production and trade. If you can buy porn openly (age restrictions applying) , then the society is rather liberal.
That aside, isn't the US rather heterogeneous concerning education? So generalized statements of this sort are a bit problematic and we should have a look at a lower level, possibly at the level of the individual states and their legislation.

Oooh, I wonder if we favour the same Domme...is it the swarthy one who often dresses in what look like army fatigues, only much, much shorter and sexier than actual fatigues? She never plays switch in the Dom site...though there is a hot latina Domme that does switch from time to time...wears glasses sometimes...also a contender. The Domme/male-sub ones can be hard to watch sometimes...owwww...but I have seen a few hot ones, and again, it's because of that particular Domme. She's yummy and mean.

The Domme i'm thinking about is in the update from the 23rd of April on the Domme / male sub site (although I can't stand the male sub in that one). I'm scanning through them now and to be honest she's only winning by a tiny tiny fraction. They're all pretty damn good. There aren't really any Dommes that I dislike, only male subs that annoy me. They can really ruin a scene

The Dom I like the best is the shaved-head, older English gentleman *le sigh*.

Yeah that's the girlfriends favourite too. What's so good about him? When I ask her I just get a weird combination of hand gestures and random noises apparently meant to convey his awesomeness lol

Edit: I'm assuming you're talking about the Dom from the 25th of April update on the Dom / female-sub site. Am I wrong?

I haven't checked out the 'O' site yet. Oooh, the water bondage can be fun too.

I really quite like the 'O' site but haven't seen much of the water bondage. I'll have to check it out.

The Domme i'm thinking about is in the update from the 23rd of April on the Domme / male sub site (although I can't stand the male sub in that one). Ahhh! Not the same I was thinking of but still good!

Yeah that's the girlfriends favourite too. What's so good about him? When I ask her I just get a weird combination of hand gestures and random noises apparently meant to convey his awesomeness lol oooooh, he's just soooo...*gestures*...mmm....

Hahahaha, well he's hot, for one, and has a great voice. I don't know, he just seems like...really in control. Yeah okay I can't explain it but damn I would love to do a video with him :D

Edit: I'm assuming you're talking about the Dom from the 25th of April update on the Dom / female-sub site. Am I wrong? Feb. 22. *nods*

Feb. 22. *nods*

Ah we're on the same wavelength. Phew. Talking in code is tricky :p

Ah we're on the same wavelength. Phew. Talking in code is tricky :p

She can tell me 'I hate you!' anyday, as long as she does that thing she does when she says it :D

Okay enough porn talk! I'm getting nothing done! Nothing constructive anyway :D

She can tell me 'I hate you!' anyday, as long as she does that thing she does when she says it :D

Okay enough porn talk! I'm getting nothing done! Nothing constructive anyway :D

See, if you were a porn star, this would count as work (well, research for work, anyway).

Yes, nice way to completely ignore the fact that the bulk of porn being produced isn't in swanky studios. Your smug little blanket generalisation about feminists is as short-sighted.

I didn't say "swanky studios". I just said that porn has come a long way, more mainstream and business oriented, since the early days of the porn industry.

And my blanket generalisation of feminist organizations is spot on. Before you go getting your panties in a bundle you should try to at least the context right.

When discussing porn, you should clarify WHICH porn industry you're talking about rather than lumping them all together. You have production studios with excellent guidelines and working conditions...and then you have amateur internet porn, or porn being produced under extremely questionable conditions. This idea of 'legal control over their own images' varies greatly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

Why is amateur porn bad again? Oh right, it isn't the porn YOU like. I also thought that is was a given that a good site is not one that shows actual rape, incest, bestiality, or necrophilia. It would seem that some people need that spelled out.

But hey, your particular twisted site is "yummy and mean" in its portrayal of degrading sexual practices so you're good.

Here is a study (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_4_42/ai_n15929172) on porn in Australia.

There are judgement calls throughout this article and proves nothing.

I think what we need to be worrying about is not the big studios...but rather, the 'niche' porn, especially that which depicts violence....ensuring that the participants are:

1) not underage
2) consenting freely
3) not actually being unduly harmed

and that the people viewing this are aware that they aren't actually watching someone being raped, etc.

Because currently there are no laws out there that govern this already.

What you are basically preaching is that some people's porn is bad but yours is good. How would you legislate that?

I didn't say "swanky studios". I just said that porn has come a long way, more mainstream and business oriented, since the early days of the porn industry. Which porn industry? You don't seem to be keeping up very well.

And my blanket generalisation of feminist organizations is spot on. Before you go getting your panties in a bundle you should try to at least the context right. Ah, my mistake. You aren't blanket generalising feminists, just feminist organisations. Corrected.

It's still ridiculous, even if you only look at your implied assertion that all feminists organisations are vehemently anti-porn.

Some porn-positive feminists organisations:
Feminists for Free Expression (http://www.ffeusa.org/)
Feminists Against Censorship (http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/FAC/)
Sex Workers Outreach Project (http://www.swopusa.org/)

Wow...you look less than 'spot on' all of a sudden.




Why is amateur porn bad again? Oh right, it isn't the porn YOU like.
You lack reading comprehension it appears. The porn I'm against is coercive or being produced under unregulated and questionable circumstances. There is plenty of amateur porn that is top drawer...in fact, a number of NSGers have some juicy stuff floating around that is in no way 'bad'.

I also thought that is was a given that a good site is not one that shows actual rape, incest, bestiality, or necrophilia. It would seem that some people need that spelled out. When you use the blanket term 'porn' you are accepting into the fold every version of such. And it's not only 'actual rape' which is problematic, but also simulated rape, where the intent is to approximate non-consent. In my opinion.

So if you want to gloat about how good and clean and wonderful and enlightened porn is, be specific.

But hey, your particular twisted site is "yummy and mean" in its portrayal of degrading sexual practices so you're good.
My site is good, because it involves consent, and at no times attempts to pretend otherwise. The particular site in question has an excellent reputation, and code of ethics.

I don't have to like the particular scene in a porn production. That is not how I qualify its worth. I don't care if someone wants to be defecated on...it's not my thing, but it isn't inherently 'bad'. What makes porn 'bad' is coercion, lack of consent, and real violence...not BDSM roleplaying.


There are judgement calls throughout this article and proves nothing. Don't pretend you read it. The methodology is spelled out, and the conclusions are pretty supportive of mainstream porn...which you'd know had you looked past page one. Pointed out in this article is the fact that Australia, like a number of other jurisdictions, regulates the porn industry it has control over, ensuring that certain things simply do not happen during filming. In the US, for example, you cannot show certain acts of physical violence and sex at the same time...punching a woman while fucking her, for example, or visa versa. As well, in the US, all 'models' or porn participants are listed in a database to ensure non are underage.

Nonetheless, in the non-mainstream, juridisction is a tricky and tangled web, and even figuring out who has produced it can be extremely difficult.



Because currently there are no laws out there that govern this already. The laws that exist can only extend so far...to the studios within the jurisdiction of those laws.

The mainstream porn doesn't seem to actually be a big problem...it is regulated both by government and by the industry itself. The troublesome porn, where actual exploitation is much more likely is outside the mainstream. Getting at it from a legal standpoint is problematic...accessing it is easy.

What you are basically preaching is that some people's porn is bad but yours is good.
Only if you completely misrepresent my entire post could you create this conclusion. Sorry, you're off mark. Read this post over a few times, m'kay?

See, if you were a porn star, this would count as work (well, research for work, anyway).

If I was a lot less classy I would make a joke about the fact that I have to give a presentation tomorrow on semen analysis.

Luckily i'm a much better guy than that ;)

See, if you were a porn star, this would count as work (well, research for work, anyway).

We can't all be you ya know :P

Actually, there was a time when X-rated films were eligible for Academy Award nomination, and occasionally wom something.

of course, that was old school, when the people were hairy as hell and didn't bend themselves into pretzels for each position...

In this matter, you're making the common mistake of confusing "X-rated films" with "pornographic films", when the two can, in fact, be mutually exclusive.

The reason porn films started getting X (and, in a fit of hyperbole, XXX) ratings, is because the MPAA decreed that every film released into a movie theater had to have a rating of some sort. However, in order to get an MPAA rating you had to submit your film for review and pay a fee to the review board. The MPAA at the time had ratings of G, PG and R and any film that failed to meet the requirements for any of the ratings was denied release. The MPAA stipulated that any film not willing to submit for review (either due to an unwillingness to pay the fee or, as in the case of pornographic films, an inability to meet the MPAA's standards) could assign ITSELF a rating of 'X' which meant, in essence, 'not reviewed'.

This led to a number of smaller budget and independent films in the '60's and '70's being released with 'X' ratings, with the most notable examples being Valley of the Dolls, A Clockwork Orange, Last Tango in Paris and Midnight Cowboy, which was nominated for seven Academy Awards and won three, including Best Picture, in 1969.

Due to it's untrademarked status, porn films began using the X rating more and more as pornographic theaters flourished in the '70's and early '80's. Due to the influx of 'X' rated porn, the rating became less and less viable for independent films because of the unsavory connotations associated with it and eventually the MPAA agreed to add the NC-17 rating to their roster so films that were unsuitable for an "R" rating could still receive a trademarked rating. NC-17, it should be noted, is not a pornographic rating either, but reserved for films with outlandishly graphic depictions of simulated sex, violence and language. Some people have argued recently that the MPAA has been too loathe to hand the rating out and that the recent wave of "torture porn" movies like Hostel and Touristas should be NC-17.


A little off topic, but it seemed worth sharing.

Only if you completely misrepresent my entire post could you create this conclusion. Sorry, you're off mark. Read this post over a few times, m'kay?

Okay. Still the same conclusion.

Some people like degrading porn. Some people like simulated violence. The point is to be simulated. I do not personally like such things as I believe that the enjoyment of my partner is important. I stand by my initial statements since the policing of the porn industry is not my job. I assume that non-consentual or underage porn is already illegal due to its very nature.

Besides, my porn fix comes from a nice store down the street as I don't use the internet for porn. You, on the other hand, have delved quite deeply into the world of online porn and have found practises you find distasteful and, like most experts, expect everyone to speak your expert dialect.

When all is said and done I still don't see porn as degrading as long as it is consentual and legal. The market dictates what is produced and I have no issue with that.

Okay. Still the same conclusion.
Willfully ignorant then as your conclusion was 'neener neener, if you don't LIKE the porn, you say it's baaaad'.

Yeah no. Sorry. You still get to keep your piss porn, even though I'm not into it, and my not being into it does not translate into me saying 'it's bad'.

Willfully ignorant then as your conclusion was 'neener neener, if you don't LIKE the porn, you say it's baaaad'.

Yeah no. Sorry. You still get to keep your piss porn, even though I'm not into it, and my not being into it does not translate into me saying 'it's bad'.

You see my 'neener neener' and raise me a 'boo boo'. Thank you for the educational lecture on what porn is good and what porn isn't.

in a lot of heterosexual porn all you see of the man is the cock. what is more an object, the near disembodied cock or the woman whose face and expressions are visible and part of the scene? also feminist critiques of porn often completely disregard the existence of gay porn - no women being objectified there.

welol i say 'often' but having said this i've only read one feminist critique of porn and it was pretty out there (all porn is rape, etc. the same book asserted that all gay men are rampant misogynists...), and had a few seminar discussions on the topic with a feminist professor who would give men evils for holding doors for her and such. she was a bit weird.

To be fair, everyone in porn is depicted as objects of desire.

That's kindof the whole point.


Let's face it, any man who acted as canniving and sexually liberal as they do in the porns would be a convincted rapist.

And any woman who acted that dimwitted and slutty deserves to be raped and killed by some serial killer, and no doubt would.



The thing about porn is it's a fantasy, like Lord of The Rings. Maybe comparing a masterpiece like Lord of The Rings to nut-gobbler isn't exactly the best comparison, but the principle remains the same.

If you can't tell the difference between reality and fantasy, then you need to be straight-jacketed. Normal people do not expect their sex lives to be as in the porns, atleast I would hope not.

To be fair, everyone in porn is depicted as objects of desire.

That's kindof the whole point.


Let's face it, any man who acted as canniving and sexually liberal as they do in the porns would be a convincted rapist.

And any woman who acted that dimwitted and slutty deserves to be raped and killed by some serial killer, and no doubt would.



The thing about porn is it's a fantasy, like Lord of The Rings. Maybe comparing a masterpiece like Lord of The Rings to nut-gobbler isn't exactly the best comparison, but the principle remains the same.

If you can't tell the difference between reality and fantasy, then you need to be straight-jacketed. Normal people do not expect their sex lives to be as in the porns, atleast I would hope not.

you might be surprised then. you might be surprised by a lot of things from the looks of your post.

You see my 'neener neener' and raise me a 'boo boo'. Thank you for the educational lecture on what porn is good and what porn isn't.
Anytime. I'm up for educating fools pretty much 24/7.

And any woman who acted that dimwitted and slutty deserves to be raped and killed by some serial killer, and no doubt would. Idiot.


Normal people do not expect their sex lives to be as in the porns, atleast I would hope not.

You're right...I expect mine to be better.

Idiot.



You're right...I expect mine to be better.

:D

Idiot.

Agreed. The sociopath moniker fits the bill.

You're right...I expect mine to be better.

Once again, agreed. See? We can see eye to eye on some levels.

Once again, agreed. See? We can see eye to eye on some levels.

Shut up, I hate having to play nice.

Okay but no, seriously...if you can't have more fulfilling sex than what you see in an average porn movie, you're just doing it wrong :D

in a lot of heterosexual porn all you see of the man is the cock. what is more an object, the near disembodied cock or the woman whose face and expressions are visible and part of the scene? also feminist critiques of porn often completely disregard the existence of gay porn - no women being objectified there.

welol i say 'often' but having said this i've only read one feminist critique of porn and it was pretty out there (all porn is rape, etc. the same book asserted that all gay men are rampant misogynists...), and had a few seminar discussions on the topic with a feminist professor who would give men evils for holding doors for her and such. she was a bit weird.

Kinda reminds me of an article printed not long ago asserting that *any* copulation between a man and a woman was rape and inherently violent.

It's the kind of thing that makes you scratch your head and go 'WTF?'

i don't know about empirical evidence, but porn has definitely screwed up my view of 'normal' women.... its taken quite some work to change that view, and i'm probably still not 100% there yet, but i feel better for the change :)

Okay, I'm going to need a link.

Not here, of course.

How about people who simply film themselves having sex and then put it on the internet?

Since it's all DIY, there is no coercion, and one can tell simply by watching that participants are doing it for the sheer enjoyment of it.

To me, this does the opposite of objectifying the performers, as one can empathise with the performer's obvious and sincere lust.

The "homemade" porn is my favorite as well. Production values are fine, but they don't turn me on. I don't even need to see the naughty bits -- sites like the Australian one that invites regular folks to masturbate and allow only their faces to be filmed as they come do more to light my libido than full frontal does. The sound combined with the faces, even of the men, are highly arousing to me. That's not to say that I don't appreciate nudity -- I assure you that I do -- but sound and expression do much more.

Sin, will you please TG me the URL for your favorite site?

Thanks!

So we are often told that porn is bad by some feminists because it makes men objectify women as just objects of sexual desire.

I call crap on this, I would like to see some empircal evidance, rather than hear an argument based on assumption.

Anybody game?:D

I didn't realize that all porn everywhere consists of only women. Aren't the men objectified as well? Honestly, I looked at porn as more of a comedy genre with some really interesting... um, visual effects.

And any woman who acted that dimwitted and slutty deserves to be raped and killed by some serial killer, and no doubt would.





I hope someone kills you.

Long-time fan :D I don't bother getting my porn elsewhere anymore.

Okay, come on, what is this mystery company? You can't taunt us like this!

So we are often told that porn is bad by some feminists because it makes men objectify women as just objects of sexual desire.

I call crap on this, I would like to see some empircal evidance, rather than hear an argument based on assumption.

Anybody game?:D

I also call crap. If anything, porn objectifies men. The men in porn are only there for their penis and often aren't even credited.

I'd say it's probably pretty rare to be involved in porn against one's will. Hell, I'd do it if I had the body.

It's ironic that people who are against the government telling women what to do with their bodies have no problem telling women what to do with their bodies themselves.

I hope someone kills you.

I second that opinion.

Everyone is an object.

I second that opinion.
As a "Heroic Sociopath", he's probably already wanted by the US Military. Maybe he'll get Guantanamo'd instead?

As a "Heroic Sociopath", he's probably already wanted by the US Military. Maybe he'll get Guantanamo'd instead?

Eh, I'm guessing he'll be signed up.

I didn't realize that all porn everywhere consists of only women. Aren't the men objectified as well? Honestly, I looked at porn as more of a comedy genre with some really interesting... um, visual effects.

Well thats what I think also, isn't it the job of porn to represent the actors as objects of sexual desire?

In all fairness though I did say some feminists, and I guess the argument is really about emperical evidances vs assumptions.

So we are often told that porn is bad by some feminists because it makes men objectify women as just objects of sexual desire.

I call crap on this, I would like to see some empircal evidance, rather than hear an argument based on assumption.

Anybody game?:D

It would help if you could spell "feminism".

I don't think porn is "bad" because it "makes men objectify women as just objects of sexual desire".

I think it's certainly not unhealthy to look at porn, but I suppose it's always better if you can get laid, or if you simply make your own in a relationship.

I feel that the actors in porn are often objectified and reduced to objects, because that is the nature of the proffession, particularly when there is less money involved, I assume.

I think a lot of pornography on the internet has gone too far - some fetishes go beyond "healthy", and when some males see it, they may come to expect that their potential partner should do the same.

It would help if you could spell "feminism".

Well obviously I can't but that seems not to matter as you know what I mean.



I don't think porn is "bad" because it "makes men objectify women as just objects of sexual desire".

Agreed.



I think it's certainly not unhealthy to look at porn, but I suppose it's always better if you can get laid, or if you simply make your own in a relationship.

Not sure on this one, surly when it comes to what is better, sexualy speaking thne thats a wholey subjective thing?



I feel that the actors in porn are often objectified and reduced to objects, because that is the nature of the proffession, particularly when there is less money involved, I assume.

You feel, and thats the whole point. What makes you feel this?



I think a lot of pornography on the internet has gone too far - some fetishes go beyond "healthy", and when some males see it, they may come to expect that their potential partner should do the same.

And again isn't that a subjective thing? I don't like the thoguht of poo sex, but some do, I don't think that unhealthy though, just well strange.

When you say some males, are you willing to put a percentage figure on that?

Well obviously I can't but that seems not to matter as you know what I mean.

Agreed.

Not sure on this one, surly when it comes to what is better, sexualy speaking thne thats a wholey subjective thing?

You feel, and thats the whole point. What makes you feel this?

And again isn't that a subjective thing? I don't like the thoguht of poo sex, but some do, I don't think that unhealthy though, just well strange.

When you say some males, are you willing to put a percentage figure on that?

I "feel" that way based on documentaries I've watched, and my best friend became a prostitute, so I probably have more of a right to "feel" that way than other people who just assume.

Anal sex is in no way as mentally unhealthy as some of the porn that is out there nowadays. There are some fettishes out there that very morally questionable, and I don't mean a bit of BDSM.

No.

I "feel" that way based on documentaries I've watched, and my best friend became a prostitute, so I probably have more of a right to "feel" that way than other people who just assume.

Anal sex is in no way as mentally unhealthy as some of the porn that is out there nowadays. There are some fettishes out there that very morally questionable, and I don't mean a bit of BDSM.

No.


Heh I would say that there is no greater or lesser right to feel somthing, it is after all something that we all do. But what you are saying then is it is a gut feeling based on your own lifes experiances. Which is again the point I make, I have not been presented with any emperical evidance for this stance that some feminists take.

I was talking about poo sex not anal sex.

Which fetishes would you call moraly questionable?

Fair enough. :D