NationStates Jolt Archive


Best All-Time Gaming Console

Steel Butterfly
07-05-2008, 05:47
So what is it? Super Nintendo? Playstation 2? Names like these come to mind when it comes to the best all-time gaming console ever to hit the market. I've collected a list of the 9 best, and it's up to you to decide which ones take the cake.

For me, it will always be the original Playstation. No other gaming device revolutionized my life quite like that. Resident Evil, Final Fantasy VII and VIII, Breath of Fire III, Metal Gear Solid, Chrono Chross, Grandia, and the Gameday football series dominated my childhood and made me a Playstation fan for life. Since then I've owned a PS2, PSP, and PS3, and I've yet to get bored. While Super Nintendo had amazing games, as did the Playstation 2, the PS1 will always have a very big place in my heart, for it was as influential on me as it was to the market.
New Malachite Square
07-05-2008, 05:48
Game & Watch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_%26_Watch)
Everywhar
07-05-2008, 05:48
My computer.
Guibou
07-05-2008, 05:49
Thou shalt not compare oranges with apples. Every console is unique.
Steel Butterfly
07-05-2008, 05:50
Oh, and just for an update, this is only about Consoles, not PC's, and if your choice isn't on the list, too bad. It's jolt's fault...not mine.
New Malachite Square
07-05-2008, 05:58
Damnation! I would've voted for the N64, had I been paying attention.
Maxus Paynus
07-05-2008, 05:59
Super Nintendo, no competition.
Steel Butterfly
07-05-2008, 06:00
Damnation! I would've voted for the N64, had I been paying attention.

Super Nintendo, no competition

Why though? The point of this thread is discussion.
Amarenthe
07-05-2008, 06:00
*This* is my thread.

Nintento 64 is my all-time favourite gaming console. Mario Kart is where it's at, people. Not to mention Mario Party 2/3, Pokemon Snap/Puzzle/Stadium, The World is Not Enough/GoldenEye 007, Donkey Kong 64... this was my childhood, kids. :p

Edit: Mostly because it was the console I grew up playing, after Super Nintendo... the one I enjoyed the most.
Potarius
07-05-2008, 06:01
*This* is my thread.

Nintento 64 is my all-time favourite gaming console. Mario Kart is where it's at, people. Not to mention Mario Party 2/3, Pokemon Snap/Puzzle/Stadium, The World is Not Enough/GoldenEye 007, Donkey Kong 64... this was my childhood, kids. :p

Le sigh, no mention of Mario 64?

You, of all people... :p
Maxus Paynus
07-05-2008, 06:01
Why though? The point of this thread is discussion.


It has all my favourites. I dunno about you but, I just have a huge nostalgia for the old SNES type graphics, particularly in RPGs. This can only be found replicated on the GBA.
Amarenthe
07-05-2008, 06:02
Le sigh, no mention of Mario 64?

You, of all people... :p

Uhm, that one's given. (I thought it was the first one I listed. >_> My bad.)
Steel Butterfly
07-05-2008, 06:05
It has all my favourites. I dunno about you but, I just have a huge nostalgia for the old SNES type graphics, particularly in RPGs. This can only be found replicated on the GBA.

Ah. I understand where you're coming from. However my RPG nostalgia comes from the age of sprites. I love Breath of Fire III and Final Fantasy Tactics, and both of those are only replicated on the PSP.
New Malachite Square
07-05-2008, 06:06
Why though? The point of this thread is discussion.

Nostalgia, I guess. The N64 weaned the gamer within me. And I know no adventure will ever be as compelling as The Ocarina of Time, no shooter more electrifying that Perfect Dark, no Star Wars-y thing more Star Wars-y than Rogue Squadron…

I am a curmudgeonly old man at heart. :)
Maxus Paynus
07-05-2008, 06:06
Ah. I understand where you're coming from. However my RPG nostalgia comes from the age of sprites. I love Breath of Fire III and Final Fantasy Tactics, and both of those are only replicated on the PSP.

Well, I didn't mean the RPGs in particular, more the SNES capability of graphics. I only mentioned the GBA because its the only platform weak enough to be at that level.:p

Speaking of PSP though...perhaps I should get those two, Crisis Core has been beaten for some time now. <__<
Vetalia
07-05-2008, 06:07
I'm a firm fan of the Sega Genesis...let's just say I still fondly remember firing up Sonic the Hedgehog and just going "holy shit" (well, I was a little young to be talking like that back then, but the feeling was the same). That being said, each of those has its own merits and claims to the number one spot.
Steel Butterfly
07-05-2008, 06:08
Well, I didn't mean the RPGs in particular, more the SNES capability of graphics. I only mentioned the GBA because its the only platform weak enough to be at that level.:p

Speaking of PSP though...perhaps I should get those two, Crisis Core has been beaten for some time now. <__<

I'm in reverse order of you. I just tore my way though Final Fantasy Tactics and am finally ready to play the copy of Crisis Core I've had since its release date. You'll have to get Breath of Fire III from Europe though. It's easy enough to order, they just don't sell it here.
Tappee
07-05-2008, 06:08
So what is it? Super Nintendo? Playstation 2? Names like these come to mind when it comes to the best all-time gaming console ever to hit the market. I've collected a list of the 9 best, and it's up to you to decide which ones take the cake.

For me, it will always be the original Playstation. No other gaming device revolutionized my life quite like that. Resident Evil, Final Fantasy VII and VIII, Breath of Fire III, Metal Gear Solid, Chrono Chross, Grandia, and the Gameday football series dominated my childhood and made me a Playstation fan for life. Since then I've owned a PS2, PSP, and PS3, and I've yet to get bored. While Super Nintendo had amazing games, as did the Playstation 2, the PS1 will always have a very big place in my heart, for it was as influential on me as it was to the market.

it is really hard to for me to name the whoch system is the best. You could make so many different agruements. How to base it. Best title selection (PS2 my opinion), durability (NES, yes I have one that still works), innovation (Wii for gameplay not graphic). what do take in to consideration.
Maxus Paynus
07-05-2008, 06:09
I'm in reverse order of you. I just tore my way though Final Fantasy Tactics and am finally ready to play the copy of Crisis Core I've had since its release date. You'll have to get Breath of Fire III from Europe though. It's easy enough to order, they just don't sell it here.

Baaah, don't feel like importing. I'll probably just buy Ace Combat X instead.

Anywho, yea...SNES mainly for the nostalgia of the graphics, though the same could be applied somewhat to the Genesis (the one I actually own).

Then again...the DBZ games on the SNES were fun.
Steel Butterfly
07-05-2008, 06:12
it is really hard to for me to name the whoch system is the best. You could make so many different agruements. How to base it. Best title selection (PS2 my opinion), durability (NES, yes I have one that still works), innovation (Wii for gameplay not graphic). what do take in to consideration.

I picked the original playstation because it has the second best title library (I agree that the ps2 has the best), revolutionary games for the time like the ones I listed, effectively destroyed Sega as a company, and taught Nintendo that cartridges are a thing of the past. Now every system uses some form of disc, CD, DVD, Blu-Ray, etc. You can thank the Playstation for that. Also, Final Fantasy VII, greatest game in history or not, is THE game that opened up the RPG genre outside of Japan. And being that RPG's are my favorite type of game, I owe a lot to Playstation for introducing the mainstream audience to them, therefore insuring that more and more would be made.
Lord Tothe
07-05-2008, 06:14
AAAAHHHH! N64 - PS2 - N64 - PS2 - N64 - PS2 - N64 - PS2 - N64 - PS2 - N64 - PS2 - N64 - PS2 - N64 - PS2 - N64 - PS2 - N64 - PS2 - N64 - PS2 - N64 - PS2 - N64 - PS2 - N64 - PS2 - N64 - PS2 - OK, I enjoyed the Ratchet & Clank games enough for the PS2 to outweigh the N64. It's a cruel choice to have to make, though.

PS2 backwards compatibility clinched the win.
Tappee
07-05-2008, 06:18
I would agree that PS made a big change in the way gaming platform were created, and had more adult gaming selection at a time in my life when I was looking to get away from Mario type games, and into RPG's, and FPS
Posi
07-05-2008, 07:15
Nintendo Entertainment System.

Why? It featured a game staring a plumber that saved the industry from the implosion the ET game caused. Without it, it is quite likely we wouldn't even be playing video games.
Kamsaki-Myu
07-05-2008, 10:29
It's a toss up between the Wii and PS2 for me. The PS2 has the PS1 library, but then the Wii has loads of classic console support too, as well as some awesome new kinds of games.
ColaDrinkers
07-05-2008, 11:01
I'm going to have to go with the Dreamcast. Sure, it had a short life and had a relatively small library, but it had so many unique games, things you had never seen before. It's sad that it didn't succeed, because it might have caused some change for the better in the industry, which is far too conservative. If you didn't have one, you missed out big time.

The console I personally had the most fun with though is probably the Genesis, but childhood favorites should be automatically disqualified when you vote. :)
Dreamlovers
07-05-2008, 11:07
Super Nintendo is legendary.
Oh but I really love Mario 64. So much fun. Sad thing is that I never found the blue hat.
Markreich
07-05-2008, 11:16
http://www.atarifun.com/atari%202600%20console%20and%20controllers.jpg

...for an "all time" vote, I would have expected better options. :D
The Turian Hierarchy
07-05-2008, 11:20
I voted Sega Mega Drive because it was my first and up until recently only console and I have fond memories, but as others have pointed out, different consoles are better at different things. You couldn't really compare an Xbox 360 to a Wii, or a Playstation 3 to a NES.
Dalmatia Cisalpina
07-05-2008, 12:53
The Super Nintendo definitely had the best games ever. In my mind, that makes it the best console.
the Great Dawn
07-05-2008, 13:23
I picked the original playstation because it has the second best title library (I agree that the ps2 has the best), revolutionary games for the time like the ones I listed, effectively destroyed Sega as a company, and taught Nintendo that cartridges are a thing of the past. Now every system uses some form of disc, CD, DVD, Blu-Ray, etc. You can thank the Playstation for that. Also, Final Fantasy VII, greatest game in history or not, is THE game that opened up the RPG genre outside of Japan. And being that RPG's are my favorite type of game, I owe a lot to Playstation for introducing the mainstream audience to them, therefore insuring that more and more would be made.
Why would cartridges be something of the part? It sure is a better medium to prevent piracy (it's much easier with a DVD ofcourse). Also, I found cartridges more robust and lose prone to troubles. For myself it's the N64, just so many classics nad revolutionary games on that one, and I'm not old enough for the NES or SNES :P
Steel Butterfly
07-05-2008, 13:41
Why would cartridges be something of the part? It sure is a better medium to prevent piracy (it's much easier with a DVD ofcourse). Also, I found cartridges more robust and lose prone to troubles.

Fair enough, although it doesn't change the fact that cartridges are a thing of the past. Of the current systems, only the DS uses the cartridge format, and it's a handheld system at that. If cartridges weren't a thing of the past, surely they'd be around more, no?
The Turian Hierarchy
07-05-2008, 14:01
Fair enough, although it doesn't change the fact that cartridges are a thing of the past. Of the current systems, only the DS uses the cartridge format, and it's a handheld system at that. If cartridges weren't a thing of the past, surely they'd be around more, no?

They aren't around more because they're much more expensive to produce when compared to discs. There are actually certain advantages to using cartridges, such as significantly faster loading times and the aforementioned piracy issue.
Callisdrun
07-05-2008, 20:48
You forgot Atari.

My vote goes to PS2, with PC coming in second, though.
New Genoa
07-05-2008, 20:51
SNES was the only console I played a lot. I didnt use my N64 or gamecube too much. I guess I'm a PC guy at heart, though.
Llewdor
07-05-2008, 20:56
The poll skews pretty new. The Atari 2600, Colecovision, and Intellivision (well, maybe not the Colecovision) were all excellent.

Of those listed, N64.

Of the older consoles, the Intellivision was really the best. Its controller allowed far more complex inputs than any console since.
Markreich
07-05-2008, 21:02
You forgot Atari.

My vote goes to PS2, with PC coming in second, though.

With just you and I, the ancient 2600 is besting the Xbox and PS3! :D
Yootopia
07-05-2008, 21:09
Scuse me.

Where is the C64 on this list?
Heroic Sociopath
07-05-2008, 21:33
Nintendo 64.


They had the best producers, the best games, and we're the only ones willing to bring in a four player co-op system. Sony being the arrogant assholes that they are still lagged with two player console, and Sega released Dreamcast, which though was very technologically supirior (as is al their systems) had no games worth buying and died on the marketplace.


I was hoping that with the sega and nintendo merge, they'd crush their competition, what with sega's technology of tommorow and nintendo's awesome games. But then n64's game producers starting jumping to Microsoft (like Bungie) and now everything nintendo is either mini-games, Mario, or non-multiplayer first person shooters like Metroid. (Which defeats the whole fucking purpose)


Nintendo now has no innovation.
Sony is just crap, expensive crap at that.
And Microsoft is an evil, souless, organization, capitalizing on the one good franchise they have (Halo), and occassionaly releasing good sandbox games like zombie survivals and Fable.


Game companies have gone the way of our government. They got too much money to ever worry about collpasing, therefore they hold no obligation to please you. You'll either buy their shit or get left behind, it's that simple..


But N64 spins circles even around today's consoles. It might not have internet gameplay or the best graphics, but atleast it still has it's soul...
Intangelon
07-05-2008, 21:50
Bit-for-bit, the best gaming console ever was the Intellivision. What Blue Sky Rangers managed to fit into that tiny-memoried cartridge system and the graphics and sound they developed were amazing. Especially when compared to its more popular rival, the Atari 2600.
Dyakovo
07-05-2008, 22:15
Magnavox Odyssey
Neo Art
07-05-2008, 22:18
The 360, without question.
Llewdor
07-05-2008, 23:23
Bit-for-bit, the best gaming console ever was the Intellivision. What Blue Sky Rangers managed to fit into that tiny-memoried cartridge system and the graphics and sound they developed were amazing. Especially when compared to its more popular rival, the Atari 2600.
Two votes for the Intellivision. Wooo!

I spent many many hours playing Utopia as a kid. It was the first ever god game (just as the Atari 2600's Adventure was the first ever RPG). But Utopia was a multiplayer god game. You could go head to head in real time... in like 1982.
Potarius
07-05-2008, 23:57
Nintendo 64.


They had the best producers, the best games, and we're the only ones willing to bring in a four player co-op system. Sony being the arrogant assholes that they are still lagged with two player console, and Sega released Dreamcast, which though was very technologically supirior (as is al their systems) had no games worth buying and died on the marketplace.


I was hoping that with the sega and nintendo merge, they'd crush their competition, what with sega's technology of tommorow and nintendo's awesome games. But then n64's game producers starting jumping to Microsoft (like Bungie) and now everything nintendo is either mini-games, Mario, or non-multiplayer first person shooters like Metroid. (Which defeats the whole fucking purpose)


Nintendo now has no innovation.
Sony is just crap, expensive crap at that.
And Microsoft is an evil, souless, organization, capitalizing on the one good franchise they have (Halo), and occassionaly releasing good sandbox games like zombie survivals and Fable.


Game companies have gone the way of our government. They got too much money to ever worry about collpasing, therefore they hold no obligation to please you. You'll either buy their shit or get left behind, it's that simple..


But N64 spins circles even around today's consoles. It might not have internet gameplay or the best graphics, but atleast it still has it's soul...

...What the hell have you been drinking?
Skalvia
08-05-2008, 00:04
Its gotta be the Sega Genesis for me, I dont even give a shit...

Without the Genesis I wouldnt be into Videogames today...

I had a SNES first but it just didnt captivate me like the Genesis did, Genesis represented Maturity, with its Mortal Kombat Blood, and Bad Attitude Sonic the Hedgehog....

Without Sega, videogames would be closed off to Mature Audiences, and Nintendo would have a Monopoly...
Kamsaki-Myu
08-05-2008, 00:13
Nintendo now has no innovation.
It's interesting you should mention that. Nintendo's step away from the pressure to innovate and push technical boundaries is one of the reasons it's doing so well. By removing the "Geek factor" from game software, what they've done is nothing less than a paradigm shift in the way video games are treated in popular culture.

Well, here in the UK, anyway.
The Final Five
08-05-2008, 00:19
I own or have owned the following consoles:
PS1
PS2
PS3
360
Sega Master System 2
Wii
Gameboy Colour
DS
The PS3 is the most powerfull console ive ever played, has the most entertainment options and has great games already with more on the way.
Honsria
08-05-2008, 00:34
Thou shalt not compare oranges with apples. Every console is unique.

QFT

Except the Dreamcast, which sucked according to just about everybody.
Skalvia
08-05-2008, 00:50
...What the hell have you been drinking?

yeah, ill have what he was smoking, lol...

Cant believe the Dreamcast isnt on here, i think itd definitely be in the top...I mean, it was so ahead of its time, they are STILL making games for it, even though its out of production...

How many consoles can say that?
New Manvir
08-05-2008, 02:30
I pick this

http://www.tradebit.com/usr/1site2c/pub/9001/ps2-repair.jpg

With this in second

http://cache.kotaku.com/gaming/images/snes.jpg
Steel Butterfly
08-05-2008, 03:39
Nintendo now has no innovation.
Sony is just crap, expensive crap at that.
And Microsoft is an evil, souless, organization, capitalizing on the one good franchise they have (Halo), and occassionaly releasing good sandbox games like zombie survivals and Fable.


1. This is flat-out dumb. The DS and Wii scream innovation, and while PS3 is certainly my favorite, Nintendo is the ONLY company actually innovating. I don't know how else to put it. You're just wrong.

2. It's a matter of opinion, sure, but I don't get how. The price gap between the 360 and the PS3 has closed, and the PS3 is the cheapest blu-ray player BY FAR, so I'm not quite sure what you mean by "expensive." As far as "crap" goes, I couldn't disagree more, but hey...to each his own.

3. Microsoft is no different an organization than Sony is...and Fable wasn't good.
Intangelon
08-05-2008, 04:07
Two votes for the Intellivision. Wooo!

I spent many many hours playing Utopia as a kid. It was the first ever god game (just as the Atari 2600's Adventure was the first ever RPG). But Utopia was a multiplayer god game. You could go head to head in real time... in like 1982.

I KNOW!!!

Utopia basically started me on my strategy game addiction. It wasn't much of a leap from there to games like Nobunaga's Ambition and Conflict for the NES and the Civilization series on my Macs.

I'll never get those hours back.
Indri
08-05-2008, 04:17
The best gaming platform in the one that is still around today, the PC. It can be upgraded, the games can be modified, and though the specific model and components have changed over time it remains the best gaming platform because of the wide variety of games available for it, the superior controls, and its flexibility.
Layarteb
08-05-2008, 04:19
SNES is the epitome of game console designs.
Steel Butterfly
08-05-2008, 05:08
The best gaming platform in the one that is still around today, the PC. It can be upgraded, the games can be modified, and though the specific model and components have changed over time it remains the best gaming platform because of the wide variety of games available for it, the superior controls, and its flexibility.

Just playing devil's advocate here, what about the high cost of upgrades. And you say the wide variety of games? What genres of games other than FPS, RTS, and MMO's are there even out for the pc? A trend lately in the market is NOT releasing a PC version, and yet you cite the game library?
Skalvia
08-05-2008, 05:54
Just playing devil's advocate here, what about the high cost of upgrades. And you say the wide variety of games? What genres of games other than FPS, RTS, and MMO's are there even out for the pc? A trend lately in the market is NOT releasing a PC version, and yet you cite the game library?

Im not gonna argue the high cost of upgrades....But, seeing as how by the time you actually need to upgrade, the top of the line has become the mediocre, and is relatively inexpensive, and can generally do the job well, besides, its WAY less expensive than a new Console anyway...Still, i hate paying for new shit as much as the next guy, lol...

And, well there's fighters (Virtua Fighter, MK, Fatal Fury), God Games (Black and White, Sim City), etc., most Genres are available on PC...

And, yes there has been a trend among Console developers of not releasing on PC, there has also been a trend among Studios that Release games ONLY on PC, in the end it should balance out...
Angry Fruit Salad
08-05-2008, 06:12
Why is the Sega Master System never an option?
Skalvia
08-05-2008, 06:16
Why is the Sega Master System never an option?

Srsly Sega has so much more to offer than whats on this list...
The Alma Mater
08-05-2008, 07:00
Of this list ? The Wii, due to its original controller.
All other systems are completely and utterly crushed by a pc.
The Lone Alliance
08-05-2008, 08:55
I can't decide, It's a toss up betwen the SNES and the N64 however.

Super Nintendo: Created several great series, had an excellent control interface. Some of the best games of all time were SNES. And perhaps the greatest RPGs ever were SNES originally. FFVI, Chrono Trigger(Though it was on Playstation) and even Mario RPG to name a few.

Nintendo 64: Where to begin. Some of the most famous games of all time are N64 titles. Goldeneye, Orcaina of Time, Mario...
Estis
08-05-2008, 09:12
*This* is my thread.

Nintento 64 is my all-time favourite gaming console. Mario Kart is where it's at, people. Not to mention Mario Party 2/3, Pokemon Snap/Puzzle/Stadium, The World is Not Enough/GoldenEye 007, Donkey Kong 64... this was my childhood, kids. :p

Edit: Mostly because it was the console I grew up playing, after Super Nintendo... the one I enjoyed the most.

i do have to say, ive argued this point before on other forums. while the original NES was amazing considering it opened the world of gaming to us all... the N64 was revolutionary... take LoZ:OoT was a massive game to scale of its time. with in depth adventures compelling storyline and a cast that was wonderful. The game pushed the 264 color board and cartridge system to its limits., granted things are alot better now, the N64 is by far the best.
Pure Metal
08-05-2008, 10:27
my sense of nostalgia says the SNES or N64, or Megadrive, but i've had my xbox360 for 2 years now and i still have great fun on it - especially fun with my g/f, which is great :)

i was going to say Wii for its new take on games, but there just aren't enough games (i want) for it yet...
Svalbardania
08-05-2008, 11:47
Not quite hands down, but definitively winning, is the 64. Seriously, how can you guys have mentioned all the awesome 64 games EXCEPT what is possibly the best of the lot, Super Smash Bros? The sheer insanity of it was ludicrous, and brilliant.

That being said, I've probably spent more time and energy playing my Sega Mega Drive II (known as the Genesis to others). Specifically, there are two games that win. Toejam and Earl, and Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine. I've yet to try it, but I'm fairly convinced that Toejam and Earl would be the single greatest game to play whilst stoned. It's impossible to describe, but anyone who's played it will understand.

So yeah. No beating those two in my mind.
Pure Metal
08-05-2008, 12:49
The PS3 is the most powerfull console ive ever played, has the most entertainment options and has great games already with more on the way.
that's one of the reasons i picked the 360. other consoles have been (or are) great fun, but being able to play my mp3/wma's and divx movies from an external HDD through the 360 makes it more than a console. to use the sales jargon, its the "digital entertainment centre of my home"... even though my laptop is used way more.

the thing it lacks is a browser, which pisses me off. sometimes i'm playing games or listening to music on my 360 and want to look something up on the web. i have to get out my laptop to do that, and its a pain in the arse. my MS won't do a browser for the 360 is beyond me :rolleyes:

3. Microsoft is no different an organization than Sony is.

amen.
The Turian Hierarchy
08-05-2008, 16:21
that's one of the reasons i picked the 360. other consoles have been (or are) great fun, but being able to play my mp3/wma's and divx movies from an external HDD through the 360 makes it more than a console. to use the sales jargon, its the "digital entertainment centre of my home"... even though my laptop is used way more.

Not to mention the better selection of games and downloadable content!

I hate to admit it, but the only reason I bought a 360 was to play Mass Effect. And then I found out it was coming out on PC anyway!

Still, I'm sure I needed an HDTV for something, so it's not entirely wasted...

Not quite hands down, but definitively winning, is the 64. Seriously, how can you guys have mentioned all the awesome 64 games EXCEPT what is possibly the best of the lot, Super Smash Bros? The sheer insanity of it was ludicrous, and brilliant.

That being said, I've probably spent more time and energy playing my Sega Mega Drive II (known as the Genesis to others). Specifically, there are two games that win. Toejam and Earl, and Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine. I've yet to try it, but I'm fairly convinced that Toejam and Earl would be the single greatest game to play whilst stoned. It's impossible to describe, but anyone who's played it will understand.

So yeah. No beating those two in my mind.

W00t! I thought I was the only one who loved Toejam and Earl! And yes, I have actually played it, and whilst stoned and/or drunk it's even better!
Soldnerism
08-05-2008, 17:09
Here is what I own and still play

Itellivision - I am glad I am not the only person who knows of its existence
NES
GameBoy
Sega Genisis
PS1 - although the games for this I now play on PS2
N64
PS2

I would have to put my vote on Super Nitendo, so many games to choose from for the console.