NationStates Jolt Archive

I am a Christian and want to know how many people like and hate us.This is a international problem.Christians are persecuted everyday more than muslims and jews(no offense!)


So since this problem is around the globe I put it here.

wrong forum

My opinion is that this is in the wrong forum ^_^

Please move to the General forum.

http://www.weaselhut.net/christianoppressed.gif

First of all wrong forum but as a mod will move it soon anyway here goes.

Christians are not persecuted all over the world, they may be told off, they may be ridiculed for their beliefs but they are not persecuted.

I am a Christian and want to know how many people like and hate us.This is a international problem.Christians are persecuted everyday more than muslims and jews(no offense!)

No, they're not. If anything, it's the opposite: non-religious people face more persecution in many countries.

Except maybe in some tyrannical dictatorships in Asia but then who isn't there?

I am a Christian and want to know how many people like and hate us.This is a international problem.Christians are persecuted everyday more than muslims and jews(no offense!)


So since this problem is around the globe I put it here.

I'm a christian. We're pretty good people individually. It seems like when we gather into large groups that we get pretty stupid. Which is probably why Christ didn't want us to.

I am a Christian and want to know how many people like and hate us.This is a international problem.Christians are persecuted everyday more than muslims and jews(no offense!)


So since this problem is around the globe I put it here.

What? *faith in humanity plummets another 5 or 6 points*

I am a Christian and want to know how many people like and hate us.This is a international problem.Christians are persecuted everyday more than muslims and jews(no offense!)


So since this problem is around the globe I put it here.

My opionion of people like you (not "I'm a Christian", but "Oh, I'm sooo oppressed for my religion, I am a martyr and deserve being lifted to the heavens") is low. Very low.

But there is a difference between despising someone and hating, persecuting and oppressing them.

I am a Christian and want to know how many people like and hate us.This is a international problem.Christians are persecuted everyday more than muslims and jews(no offense!)


So since this problem is around the globe I put it here.

Oh for the love of all things holy....

*walks away*

No, they're not. If anything, it's the opposite: non-religious people face more persecution in many countries.

I agree with you that they are not, but where in Western Countries do non-religious people face persecution?

I know he said around the world but I want to limit it to the more 'civilized' (if you will) parts of the world

http://www.weaselhut.net/christianoppressed.gif

That picture is inaccurate an annoying.

That picture is inaccurate an annoying.

Excellent point. I actually feel ashamed at posting in this thread at all because I now have a feeling it is nothing but trolling

That picture is inaccurate an annoying.

Beg pardon?

Its innacurate ...but extreamly funny :D

Laws and other rules against atheist and agnostics.... IN THE USA!

:mad:

http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Laws_and_other_rules_against_atheists_and_agnostics

Beg pardon?

The original pie chart was comparing something completely different, someone modified it to make it look like Christians were over 75% of the population. They are not.

http://www.adherents.com/images/rel_pie.gif

Christians btw, are being oppressed in many parts of the world where they are not the majority. All kinds of people are being oppressed, everywhere.

The original pie chart was comparing something completely different, someone modified it to make it look like Christians were over 75% of the population. They are not.

http://www.adherents.com/images/rel_pie.gif

Christians btw, are being oppressed in many parts of the world where they are not the majority. All kinds of people are being oppressed, everywhere.

*cough*cough* Hrr...

It's satire darling. It's not meant to be either accurate or polite:)

The original pie chart was comparing something completely different, someone modified it to make it look like Christians were over 75% of the population. They are not.

Christians btw, are being oppressed in many parts of the world where they are not the majority. All kinds of people are being oppressed, everywhere.

I assume that's worldwide rather than for the US?

I always just assumed the image was meant to be for use in discussions about Christianity in Western nations

Interesting how many people knee-jerk "NO they're not! No they're NOT it's teh at heists thar are oppressed! Chrstians ar ethe oppressors! WAAAAAHHHHHH" Instead of asking one, simple, elegant question:

"Examples, please?"

If you're right, and the OP is off his rocker, he'll be unable to respond to that intelligently. if, on the other hand, he IS able, then discuss it.

The original pie chart was comparing something completely different, someone modified it to make it look like Christians were over 75% of the population. They are not.
*snip*
Christians btw, are being oppressed in many parts of the world where they are not the majority. All kinds of people are being oppressed, everywhere.

yeah I kinda hate that pie chart myself. It's meant to be a clever shout-down and all it really is is a billboard for tunnel vision.

My wife suggested I modify it so that whenever someone uses it on here I can whip out the updated version that applies to NSG where the athesists are the pacman crying foul.

*cough*cough* Hrr...

It's satire darling. It's not meant to be either accurate or polite:)

Then what possible value is it in an intelligent discussion?

I am a Christian and want to know how many people like and hate us.This is a international problem.Christians are persecuted everyday more than muslims and jews(no offense!)


So since this problem is around the globe I put it here.

Heh heh I don't think that the number of oppressed Christians is larger than say the number of oppressed women, or oppressed low caste Hindus, or many other opressed peoples.

I think that in much of the Western world, Christians and Christianity are taken the piss out off.

Personaly I find many flaws with the Christian church, and with Christian dogma, and so I feel able to take the piss out of Christianity.

Do I hate Christians? Nope not at all, do I find them a bit odd, sure, but then I like odd people.

Even though Christians are a majority of the people in Western nations, most of them are Christian only by virtue of baptism, not participation. Because of that, many Christians feel persecuted because people who are essentially secularists, even aggressively so, run Western governments (to some extent), and especially media and educational establishments. That is why that graph is so inaccurate.

I'm not saying that this feeling of persecution is correct. In my opinion, having your arms ripped off by a Sudanese militia is persecution. Not being invited to a cocktail party by your atheist professor is not persecution.

I am a Christian and want to know how many people like and hate us.This is a international problem.Christians are persecuted everyday more than muslims and jews(no offense!)


So since this problem is around the globe I put it here.

Flame and trolling succeptible thread. I would't be asking that question here if I were you. Honestly. *nod* :)

Even though Christians are a majority of the people in Western nations, most of them are Christian only by virtue of baptism, not participation. Because of that, many Christians feel persecuted because people who are essentially secularists, even aggressively so, run Western governments (to some extent), and especially media and educational establishments. That is why that graph is so inaccurate.

I would have assumed that such statistics were based off of census data rather than baptismal records, etc. The people replying would therefore be identifying themselves as Christians and who are we to say whether they are 'true' Christians or not

I don't like or hate "Christians," because Christians are not the Borg. I like nice people, some of whom are Christians, and I dislike jerks, some of whom are Christians.

As far as the "persecuted more than Muslims or Jews" comment - I'm sure that's true somewhere, but you'll have a hard time making an argument that that's true in many Western countries.

Interesting how many people knee-jerk "NO they're not! No they're NOT it's teh at heists thar are oppressed! Chrstians ar ethe oppressors! WAAAAAHHHHHH" Instead of asking one, simple, elegant question:

"Examples, please?"

If you're right, and the OP is off his rocker, he'll be unable to respond to that intelligently. if, on the other hand, he IS able, then discuss it.


I posted a link to a page that notes some examples, only in the USA. Those kind of laws are not unique of the USA and many other countries have similar ones, Im looking for some of these examples.

here are some more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1203320

an one so hillarious...

http://tinyfrog.wordpress.com/2007/07/24/anti-atheist-christian-tv-commerical/

Please read it and tell me what you think.

Then what possible value is it in an intelligent discussion?

Intelligent discussion are overrated and requiring such unfairly handicaps many of the NSG regulars. *nod*

I would have assumed that such statistics were based off of census data rather than baptismal records, etc. The people replying would therefore be identifying themselves as Christians and who are we to say whether they are 'true' Christians or not

And theres the rub I suppose. I come from an Atheist family, who would put down C of E, on their census and other forms, because...

a) Less hassle
b) because is was the 'done' and 'expected' thing.

The original pie chart was comparing something completely different, someone modified it to make it look like Christians were over 75% of the population. They are not.

http://www.adherents.com/images/rel_pie.gif

Christians btw, are being oppressed in many parts of the world where they are not the majority. All kinds of people are being oppressed, everywhere.

Umm, the other chart is Christianity in America...it's meant to be used when people complain that us evil atheists are oppressing the poor Christian Americans.

Even so, Christians are still a plurality in the world...

I would have assumed that such statistics were based off of census data rather than baptismal records, etc. The people replying would therefore be identifying themselves as Christians and who are we to say whether they are 'true' Christians or not

I think there are some basic moral and doctrinal precepts one needs to accept in order to be called a Christian. If I write down "Queen of England" as my job on my census, that does not make me the Queen of England. Your point is well taken, however. I think I would probably have been more accurate in saying that people who are explicitly not Christian work disproportionately in the most important culture-shaping institutions in the modern era (media, education, and, to a certain extent government).

Intelligent discussion are overrated and requiring such unfairly handicaps many of the NSG regulars. *nod*

I concede.

Umm, the other chart is Christianity in America...it's meant to be used when people complain that us evil atheists are oppressing the poor Christian Americans.

Even so, Christians are still a plurality in the world...

Which makes it doubly irrelevant since the OP specified the scope as worldwide.

That picture is inaccurate an annoying.

It is inaccurate but it sums up how some of us feel when we see the OP's post and similar ones. Even still, while Christians may be oppressed in some eastern nations, this is from a western perspective.

*cough*cough* Hrr...

It's satire darling. It's not meant to be either accurate or polite:)

I'm glad someone else realises this.

I am a Christian and want to know how many people like and hate us.This is a international problem.Christians are persecuted everyday more than muslims and jews(no offense!)


So since this problem is around the globe I put it here.

Christians are persecuted every day....correct, in some nations.
More than muslims and Jews....uh?... I dont think so. Certainly they are not more persecuted than atheist nowadays.

What i think about Christians?
Well... if i could found two that were the same I could made a judgment...

But since christians can be so different, believe in so different things and behave in so different ways... its hard to make a generalization.

I mean... you have the opus day.... those from the liberation theology (and thats only inside the catholic church :D ), there are dose that taunt snakes, those that speak in tongues, mormons, lutherans, new born, ortodox, etc... I dont know all the types...

And then there are christians who oppresse other christians



What kind of christian are you Nambia?

I agree with you that they are not, but where in Western Countries do non-religious people face persecution?

I know he said around the world but I want to limit it to the more 'civilized' (if you will) parts of the world

Clearly, in Western countries persecution is rightly reduced by laws and education (and that is persecution of everyone, not just against the non-religious), but surveys reporting that 'the majority of Americans consider atheists the least trustworthy of any minority group' does not err well for equal treatment, though I do not suggest discrimination is commonplace.

In some non-Western countries, non-religious people are granted less rights than religious-but-not-the-state-religion people, Iran for example.

I mean... you have the opus day.... those from the liberation theology (and thats only inside the catholic church :D ), there are dose that taunt snakes, those that speak in tongues, mormons, lutherans, new born, ortodox, etc... I dont know all the types...

And then there are christians who oppresse other christians


: points awarded to Santiago for listing Mormons in there :) :

: points awarded to Santiago for listing Mormons in there :) :

You forgot Westboro Baptist Church, the most hateable haters on the planet...

You forgot Westboro Baptist Church, the most hateable haters on the planet...

ya

: points awarded to Santiago for listing Mormons in there :) :

Ah yes... there are some Christians that claim that other christians are not really christians... :D

Nobody hates mormons more than other christians... and why is that? their mythology is super cool!

You forgot Westboro Baptist Church, the most hateable haters on the planet...

That's because they go out of their way to alienate people. Seriously, they're the only people who make a career out of making themselves the most hated people in history.

Christians are not persecuted all over the world, they may be told off, they may be ridiculed for their beliefs but they are not persecuted.

Actually they are, sometimes very severely, but just not in the west.

Ah yes... there are some Christians that claim that other christians are not really christians... :D

Nobody hates mormons more than other christians... and why is that? their mythology is super cool!

I like you. :)

That's because they go out of their way to alienate people. Seriously, they're the only people who make a career out of making themselves the most hated people in history.

Read this...

http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_church

It tells you the story of the WBC from the inside... youll understand a lot of things.

*sigh* Not this again.

OP, do you realize that you've just asked NSG its opinion of about one billion people? Humanity presents in many flavors, and Christians are just as diverse as the "general population". If you have a particular bone to pick, go ahead -- but laying down a blanket generalization is foolish and nets only gross disagreement and frivolous arguments.

Catholic, Protestant (a general term for non-Catholics, really, which is further subcategorized here and elsewhere), Lutheran, Coptic, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Baptists (there are enough subcategories in this sect to confuse a taxonomist), Episcopalians (Church of England), Methodists, Calvinists, Free Presbyterians, Locked-Up Presbyterians (thank you Eddie Izzard), Charismatic, Evangelical, Foursquare, Unitarian, Nazarene, Scientist, Gnostic, even Snake Handlers, for cryin 'out loud. And I've left a bunch out.

So come on, OP, give the thread SOME direction, eh?

Does it really matter which group of people is persecuted more - it is a pointless piece of oneupmanship or would that be onedownmanship?

*sigh* Not this again.

OP, do you realize that you've just asked NSG its opinion of about one billion people? Humanity presents in many flavors, and Christians are just as diverse as the "general population". If you have a particular bone to pick, go ahead -- but laying down a blanket generalization is foolish and nets only gross disagreement and frivolous arguments.

Catholic, Protestant (a general term for non-Catholics, really, which is further subcategorized here and elsewhere), Lutheran, Coptic, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Baptists (there are enough subcategories in this sect to confuse a taxonomist), Episcopalians (Church of England), Methodists, Calvinists, Free Presbyterians, Locked-Up Presbyterians (thank you Eddie Izzard), Charismatic, Evangelical, Foursquare, Unitarian, Nazarene, Scientist, Gnostic, even Snake Handlers, for cryin 'out loud. And I've left a bunch out.

So come on, OP, give the thread SOME direction, eh?

: points awarded to Intangleon, too:

and by the way,

Cake or Death?

Christians are persecuted everyday more than muslims and jews(no offense!)



Thats a nice cross youve nailed yourself to.


Take your persecution complex somewhere else.

The original pie chart was comparing something completely different, someone modified it to make it look like Christians were over 75% of the population. They are not.

http://www.adherents.com/images/rel_pie.gif

Christians btw, are being oppressed in many parts of the world where they are not the majority. All kinds of people are being oppressed, everywhere.

LOL open that link. Christians still have the greatest percentage... you're kinda proving the point here. The religion with the most followers can hardly be 'oppressed' ...

LOL open that link. Christians still have the greatest percentage... you're kinda proving the point here. The religion with the most followers can hardly be 'oppressed' ...

Sure it can.

In the antibellum South Black slaves outnumbered white slaveowners.

I love Christians.


Yes. I'm narcissist like that.:fluffle:

Nobody hates mormons more than other christians... and why is that? their mythology is super cool!

I think that for Christians, Mormons are the most decent. They're really cheery and I like them.

I think that for Christians, Mormons are the most decent. They're really cheery and I like them.

And just seem to, well, taste better.

I think that for Christians, Mormons are the most decent. They're really cheery and I like them.

: points awarded to Nanatsu :

And just seem to, well, taste better.

Oh the places I could go with that comment...

Please dont!!!!

Remember good Christian morality

Please dont!!!!

Remember good Christian morality

Bwhahaha! Say isn't that an oxymoron?

I'm a christian. We're pretty good people individually. It seems like when we gather into large groups that we get pretty stupid. Which is probably why Christ didn't want us to.

That's yet another precision-guided pie hurled by the smartest clown online. Love ya, man.

I posted a link to a page that notes some examples, only in the USA. Those kind of laws are not unique of the USA and many other countries have similar ones, Im looking for some of these examples.

here are some more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1203320

an one so hillarious...

http://tinyfrog.wordpress.com/2007/07/24/anti-atheist-christian-tv-commerical/

Please read it and tell me what you think.

That last link is EXACTLY what needs to be said. Clearly, cleanly, unemotionally and truthfully. Especially about folks trying to insist that Godlessness is what led to the Nazis or Robespierre.

Christians are persecuted every day....correct, in some nations.
More than muslims and Jews....uh?... I dont think so. Certainly they are not more persecuted than atheist nowadays.

What i think about Christians?
Well... if i could found two that were the same I could made a judgment...

But since christians can be so different, believe in so different things and behave in so different ways... its hard to make a generalization.

I mean... you have the opus day.... those from the liberation theology (and thats only inside the catholic church :D ), there are dose that taunt snakes, those that speak in tongues, mormons, lutherans, new born, ortodox, etc... I dont know all the types...

And then there are christians who oppresse other christians...

Sorry, I couldn't resist -- is "opus day" a day of work, or is it a day to celebrate a certain comic strip penguin?

(Opus Dei. The confusion comes from the American fascination with smearing vowels. It should be pronounced "OH-poose DEH-ee" -- "Dei" is a two-syllable word.)

And in all seriousness, good post.

: points awarded to Intangleon, too:

and by the way,

Cake or Death?

Death-- no wait, cake!

Oh the places I could go with that comment...

Take it and run! Run like the wind!:D

And just seem to, well, taste better.

Having tasted one, I can concur.

Yeah. That's right. :D

Death-- no wait, cake!


Oh ho! You're just lucky this is the Church of England...

Please dont!!!!

Remember good Christian morality

Yes, sir. ;)

Take it and run! Run like the wind!:D

Having tasted one, I can concur.

Yeah. That's right. :D

See, my thoughts were along those lines, being as I've been married to two.

(NOT AT THE SAME TIME!)

:p

And yes, for you new people, I am one, too.

LOL open that link. Christians still have the greatest percentage... you're kinda proving the point here. The religion with the most followers can hardly be 'oppressed' ...

Smunkee is a fundie. You cant really expect her to see reason.

Sure it can.

In the antibellum South Black slaves outnumbered white slaveowners.

Relative to the whole US however...

Oh the places I could go with that comment...

You mean like where I went? Lovely place, that. I swear she tasted like cotton candy. There must be some kind of Mormon training for hot Mormon girls to retain their chastity while learning to kiss as good or better than even the most fervently morally ambiguous atheist. I don't know how they swing that, but I applaud it. Very effective as a conversion tool, and you have to appreciate that kind of strategy.

Relative to the whole US however...

Ah, but in this case that doesn't matter. If there had been a general slave uprising in the South, especially in the last couple decades before the Civil War, I hardly think the Northern population would have lifted a finger, at least not for a while, which would have probably achieved the result of eliminating slavery.

In fact, I'm of the opinion that the North was hoping to end slavery in the through exactly that means, but the Civil War trumped it.

Smunkee is a fundie. You cant really expect her to see reason.

Bit of an unfair characterization there.

If Smunkee is a "fundie", then she's easily the most reasonable and wise one I've ever met, and I've met my share. I won't ask you to apologize, as your opinion is your right, but I will ask you to reconsider, read more of her posts, and lay off her while you do.

And just seem to, well, taste better.

LOL!
I'm a vegan in that respect.:p

Bit of an unfair characterization there.

If Smunkee is a "fundie", then she's easily the most reasonable and wise one I've ever met, and I've met my share. I won't ask you to apologize, as your opinion is your right, but I will ask you to reconsider, read more of her posts, and lay off her while you do.

Ive read plenty of her posts. Shes at the very least borderline fundie.

Ive read plenty of her posts. Shes at the very least borderline fundie.

I'm sorry, but I must call your reading skills into question. Smunkee is indeed morally centered in her religion, but I've yet to see her castigate others for not being like her, as "fundies" are wont to do. If by "borderline" you mean "in the same state as a border but incapable of seeing it", I'll agree.

Define "fundamental". It means different things to different people.

Depends on the individual Christian. Some are sincere, loving human beings worthy of praise. Others are evil like Fred Phelps and probably can't be allowed to survive.

Smunkee is a fundie. You cant really expect her to see reason.Good that I did not say that :D

Good that I did not say that :D

Ok, if you are agreeing with me I need to rethink my stance...;)

Smunkee is a fundie. You cant really expect her to see reason.

That's strange. I've seen Smunkee post and I've had debates with her and, to me, she doesn't come across as someone unreasonable.:confused:

I don't have an opinion about Christians. I have to care about something to have an opinion about it.

I care about humanity in general, though, and I do have an opinion about humanity in general. It is that, in general, people are worthless, lazy, self-indulgent, self-centered dipshits whose every breath is another second wasted and whose sole occupation in life seems to be pissing me off. It is my opinion, based on personal observation, that they are this and do this by choice, because they all have the capacity to be so much more and so much better, to be agents of happiness in life, but instead they spend all their time jacking off (literally and figuratively) like bored monkeys, wallowing in the filth of their self-pity, endlessly crying and bitching because the universe does not revolve around them. And the only time they seem to shift themselves out of the fog of their self-obsession is when they try to make the universe revolve around them.

Of course, there are individuals (few and far between, it seems sometimes) who aren't like this, who actually do live their lives and use the potential they were born with, even if it's just to try to be good at whatever it is they do and kind to the people they meet. Those people are fully realized human beings, in my opinion, and deserve to be honored and loved.

People who practice a Christian religion can fall into either group.

Oh, and by the way, to the OP: You think Christians are being persecuted? Well, welcome to the club, brother. We were wondering when it would be your turn.

That picture is inaccurate an annoying.
Much like the picture the OP has drawn.

I don't have an opinion about Christians. I have to care about something to have an opinion about it.

I care about humanity in general, though, and I do have an opinion about humanity in general. It is that, in general, people are worthless, lazy, self-indulgent, self-centered dipshits whose every breath is another second wasted and whose sole occupation in life seems to be pissing me off. It is my opinion, based on personal observation, that they are this and do this by choice, because they all have the capacity to be so much more and so much better, to be agents of happiness in life, but instead they spend all their time jacking off (literally and figuratively) like bored monkeys, wallowing in the filth of their self-pity, endlessly crying and bitching because the universe does not revolve around them. And the only time they seem to shift themselves out of the fog of their self-obsession is when they try to make the universe revolve around them.

Of course, there are individuals (few and far between, it seems sometimes) who aren't like this, who actually do live their lives and use the potential they were born with, even if it's just to try to be good at whatever it is they do and kind to the people they meet. Those people are fully realized human beings, in my opinion, and deserve to be honored and loved.

People who practice a Christian religion can fall into either group.

Oh, and by the way, to the OP: You think Christians are being persecuted? Well, welcome to the club, brother. We were wondering when it would be your turn.

Ba-ZING!

Seriously, excellent post.

Ive read plenty of her posts. Shes at the very least borderline fundie.
You need to check your own biases, I think. Smunkee is a very religious Christian, yes, but she is not closed-minded or intolerant of others and does not consider herself better than others, nor does she criticize others beliefs, nor does she reject science or secularism in society, or any other hallmark of unreasonableness in religious people. Simply being devoutly religious does not make her unreasonable.

I am a Christian and want to know how many people like and hate us.

What's my opinion on Christians? Dunno, haven't met most of them.

This is a international problem.Christians are persecuted everyday more than muslims and jews(no offense!)

So since this problem is around the globe I put it here.

I can't speak for every country but Christians dish out far more than they get in the UK. Can you say "forced worship in state schools"?

I don't have an opinion about Christians. I have to care about something to have an opinion about it.

I care about humanity in general, though, and I do have an opinion about humanity in general. It is that, in general, people are worthless, lazy, self-indulgent, self-centered dipshits whose every breath is another second wasted and whose sole occupation in life seems to be pissing me off. It is my opinion, based on personal observation, that they are this and do this by choice, because they all have the capacity to be so much more and so much better, to be agents of happiness in life, but instead they spend all their time jacking off (literally and figuratively) like bored monkeys, wallowing in the filth of their self-pity, endlessly crying and bitching because the universe does not revolve around them. And the only time they seem to shift themselves out of the fog of their self-obsession is when they try to make the universe revolve around them.

Of course, there are individuals (few and far between, it seems sometimes) who aren't like this, who actually do live their lives and use the potential they were born with, even if it's just to try to be good at whatever it is they do and kind to the people they meet. Those people are fully realized human beings, in my opinion, and deserve to be honored and loved.

People who practice a Christian religion can fall into either group.

Oh, and by the way, to the OP: You think Christians are being persecuted? Well, welcome to the club, brother. We were wondering when it would be your turn.

Oh my...that was so humble and enlightening.... it changed my life....:rolleyes:

I can't speak for every country but Christians dish out far more than they get in the UK. Can you say "forced worship in state schools"?


Well I don't know, of any non Christian school that does this here, care to name one?

You need to check your own biases, I think. Smunkee is a very religious Christian, yes, but she is not closed-minded or intolerant of others and does not consider herself better than others.



Debatable.

The problem I have with christianity, and indeed with any religion that actively seeks converts, is it's designed, over centuries of development, to do just that. Christianity especially is the hard sell. In order for a religion that seeks converts to survive, it has to establish itself as "true". To do so, it needs to instill in its members not only the belief that it's correct, but the belief that there will be dire consequences if you stray. And that mentality gets passed down, generation to generation, engrained in the psyche of christians everywhere

Now I'm not saying all christians are like this, I'm merely saying that it's awfully convenient for christianity that it just so happens that the loving and caring god will punish us for all eternity if we step out of line. I'm not saying it's true or false, I'm just saying, looking through a historicla perspective, if I were to design a religion, that's something I'd stick in there.

You need to check your own biases, I think. Smunkee is a very religious Christian, yes, but she is not closed-minded or intolerant of others and does not consider herself better than others, nor does she criticize others beliefs, nor does she reject science or secularism in society, or any other hallmark of unreasonableness in religious people. Simply being devoutly religious does not make her unreasonable.

Actually, IIRC, Smunkee is now an atheist, but she kept all this low key.

I care about humanity in general, though, and I do have an opinion about humanity in general. It is that, in general, people are worthless, lazy, self-indulgent, self-centered dipshits whose every breath is another second wasted and whose sole occupation in life seems to be pissing me off. It is my opinion, based on personal observation, that they are this and do this by choice, because they all have the capacity to be so much more and so much better, to be agents of happiness in life, but instead they spend all their time jacking off (literally and figuratively) like bored monkeys, wallowing in the filth of their self-pity, endlessly crying and bitching because the universe does not revolve around them.

This is why we should spend more time screwing *nods*

Hey Mur, I could be an agent of happiness *wink wink*

By the way, and incidentally, that vodka Neesika linked was the right one.

Actually, IIRC, Smunkee is now an atheist, but she kept all this low key.

HAH!



Bull. Shit.

Actually, IIRC, Smunkee is now an atheist, but she kept all this low key.

I'm quite confused how one can go from devout to atheist in one fell swoop.

The problem I have with christianity, and indeed with any religion that actively seeks converts, is it's designed, over centuries of development, to do just that. Christianity especially is the hard sell. In order for a religion that seeks converts to survive, it has to establish itself as "true". To do so, it needs to instill in its members not only the belief that it's correct, but the belief that there will be dire consequences if you stray. And that mentality gets passed down, generation to generation, engrained in the psyche of christians everywhere

Now I'm not saying all christians are like this, I'm merely saying that it's awfully convenient for christianity that it just so happens that the loving and caring god will punish us for all eternity if we step out of line. I'm not saying it's true or false, I'm just saying, looking through a historicla perspective, if I were to design a religion, that's something I'd stick in there.

Although in fairness, not all Christian flavors preach eternal punishment.

The original pie chart was comparing something completely different, someone modified it to make it look like Christians were over 75% of the population. They are not.

http://www.adherents.com/images/rel_pie.gif

Christians btw, are being oppressed in many parts of the world where they are not the majority. All kinds of people are being oppressed, everywhere.

I think it's based on figures for the US, so the "We're being oppressed!" is commenting on American society rather than the world at large. I could be wrong though.

The problem I have with christianity, and indeed with any religion that actively seeks converts, is it's designed, over centuries of development, to do just that. Christianity especially is the hard sell. In order for a religion that seeks converts to survive, it has to establish itself as "true". To do so, it needs to instill in its members not only the belief that it's correct, but the belief that there will be dire consequences if you stray. And that mentality gets passed down, generation to generation, engrained in the psyche of christians everywhere

Now I'm not saying all christians are like this, I'm merely saying that it's awfully convenient for christianity that it just so happens that the loving and caring god will punish us for all eternity if we step out of line. I'm not saying it's true or false, I'm just saying, looking through a historicla perspective, if I were to design a religion, that's something I'd stick in there.


Yeah I agree. I really do find it odd how much empahsis is put on things like the one true way, and punishment for not converting. If you belive in God I think thats a fine and usefull thing, but why is it so important to you that I not only belive in God but in the ame dogmatic rules as you?

Surely ones relationship with God is a private thing?

Oh my...that was so humble and enlightening.... it changed my life....:rolleyes:
Does that mean you're going to jack off less, or more, from now on?

Although in fairness, not all Christian flavors preach eternal punishment.

well it goes either way. Eternal punishment for not believing, eternal reward for believing, same thing really, with the same effect.

I have yet to encounter a christian sect that argues for neither heaven nor hell for believers and non believers alike.

Does that mean you're going to jack off less, or more, from now on?

I think it means he's going to find another monkey to do it with.

HAH!



Bull. Shit.

I'm quite confused how one can go from devout to atheist in one fell swoop.

She absolutely positively was a while ago, but maybe she has converted back again since then I'm not sure.

I'm quite confused how one can go from devout to atheist in one fell swoop.

Especiall if one reads her posts and sees how defensive she gets whenever anyone says anything remotelly critical of Christianity or the religious

I am a Christian and want to know how many people like and hate us.This is a international problem.Christians are persecuted everyday more than muslims and jews(no offense!)


So since this problem is around the globe I put it here.

It is true that Christians are persecuted in some countries, but I do not think that this is what you are getting at. Christians are not persecuted in any liberal democratic nation. However, that does not mean that they are well liked.

Christian institutions have been pretty much at the forefront of evil throughout the world. Christian institutions tortured and burned people to death in the name of their faith. They have resisted abortion and birth control and now the world is overpopulated and natural habitats have been destroyed to make room for all of the people and animals have become endangered and extinct. They have caused all kinds of sexual and emotional problems and missed sexual opportunities for millions with their celibacy before marriage nonsense.

Plus, we have some very goofy theological and historical beliefs coming out of Christian sects like Mormonism which is one of if not the fastest growing Christian sect around today.

There are also many here in NSG who do not like any religion that is critical of the gays. Look at the one poll we have here that showed that about half of the guys here have at least dabbled in the delights of gaiety.

Debatable.
No, it isn't.

Actually, IIRC, Smunkee is now an atheist, but she kept all this low key.
Oh, did she? I don't keep track of that sort of thing because as I said, I don't care, and it's none of my business anyway. Anyway, it puts paid to KoL's thing. :)

well it goes either way. Eternal punishment for not believing, eternal reward for believing, same thing really, with the same effect.

I have yet to encounter a christian sect that argues for neither heaven nor hell for believers and non believers alike.

Well Mormonism has detailed doctrines concerning the afterlife that isn't a simple dichotomy of heaven/hell. :)

This is why we should spend more time screwing *nods*

Hey Mur, I could be an agent of happiness *wink wink*

By the way, and incidentally, that vodka Neesika linked was the right one.

:fluffle: Yes, thanks, I've noted it. (Noted both of the above statements. ;))

No, it isn't.



Yes. It is.

Plus, we have some very goofy theological and historical beliefs coming out of Christian sects like Mormonism which is one of if not the fastest growing Christian sect around today.

Oh come now, is mormonism any more goofy than any other religion? Is some guy named smith being given golden plates by god any more bizarre than 8 armed gods of death or an angelic rebellion being the source of evil in the world?

The problem with Christians, if not the problem for Christians, is that the ones we tend to hear about, the ones who approach us in the day to day, tend to be the most annoying.

I'd guess that a great percentage of Christians are happy to live their lives as they do, with their own beliefs, their own points of view and their wide range of personalities. Alas, they don't tend to overtly advertise it.

Those that do advertise it, who look to inform other people, by fair means or foul, are seen as irritating.

We hear of those awful televangelists, we see the false friendly smile of those guys with clipboards and white shirts, we're approached in public places by people looking to spread the joy - it's annoying.

So I guess the majority of Christians are simply let down by those who look to intrude, especially those who attempt to force laws based solely on their perceived notion of what Jesus wanted, often in stark contrast to anything said in the NT.

Ultimately, who can have an issue with someone who simply accepts the love of his God and tries to do good by that rather than ram his beliefs down the throats of others.

I don't.

Well I don't know, of any non Christian school that does this here, care to name one?

Legally speaking every school is obliged to hold a 'daily act of collective worship' which must be of a Christian character unless the school has applied for a special dispensation to change it to that of a different religion. All students are obliged to participate unless their parents opt them out: sixth formers can opt themselves out but younger students can't. Some schools ignore these laws, but they're put at risk of failing their Ofsted inspection even if they're otherwise exemplary (my old secondary school was in this situation when I went there).

I'm quite confused how one can go from devout to atheist in one fell swoop.
It's easy with a zen mind. :)

Oh, did she? I don't keep track of that sort of thing because as I said, I don't care, and it's none of my business anyway. Anyway, it puts paid to KoL's thing. :)

Well there was a big thing about it a while back and she sent people telegrams (including me) to people she asked explaining her decision because she didn't want to be ridiculed by people in the thread.

I am a Christian and want to know how many people like and hate us.This is a international problem.Christians are persecuted everyday more than muslims and jews(no offense!)


So since this problem is around the globe I put it here.

Isn't that part of God's plan? If so, why would you or any Christian take exception to it? I would think you would praise it and anything else which might seem negative from the human perspective.

Well Mormonism has detailed doctrines concerning the afterlife that isn't a simple dichotomy of heaven/hell. :)

well fair enough, I admit to not knowing much about mormonism. Let me ask this though, are there certain "levels" to call them such that which are reserved for only believers?

Legally speaking every school is obliged to hold a 'daily act of collective worship' which must be of a Christian character unless the school has applied for a special dispensation to change it to that of a different religion. All students are obliged to participate unless their parents opt them out: sixth formers can opt themselves out but younger students can't. Some schools ignore these laws, but they're put at risk of failing their Ofsted inspection even if they're otherwise exemplary (my old secondary school was in this situation when I went there).

From the response to a petition (http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page11583.asp):

The Government remains committed to the provision of collective worship in schools and recognises its valuable contribution to the spiritual and moral development of pupils.
This is a view which is shared by many parents who still expect their children to understand the meaning of worship whether they hold a faith or not.

We believe that it is important that collective worship should provide the opportunity for pupils to worship God as well as to consider spiritual and moral issues and to explore their own beliefs. Collective worship can play a valuable role in developing community spirit, promoting a common ethos and shared values. The Government believes there is sufficient flexibility in the law to allow both Christian and other forms of worship.

The Government respects the right of parents to raise their children in accordance with their own faith and this is why parents have the right to withdraw their children from collective worship. From September 2007, pupils in school sixth forms will also be able to withdraw themselves from collective worship. The Government believes that for younger pupils, it is appropriate and practical for parents to decide on whether to withdraw. The Government believes this strikes the right balance between the requirements of the law and accommodating the wishes of parents.

Note the last paragraph.

:fluffle: Yes, thanks, I've noted it. (Noted both of the above statements. ;))

tease :p

Also, if you want a bottle lemme know, I might be able to get my man in brighton to swing another one, I can leave it at the store and you can pick it up, heh.

Also, you should tell me more about the totemic belief of yours, always been interested. Is it mostly african based or a blend of various?

well fair enough, I admit to not knowing much about mormonism. Let me ask this though, are there certain "levels" to call them such that which are reserved for only believers?

Yes and no... For example, there's a way in which a non-Mormon and a Mormon (and I believe) a Muslim would find themselves together in the same place. Atheists, pagans, etc. all there and it is considered a part of Heaven, not hell.

Yes, the truly faithful church members who complete all that's required of them will be able to access a place none other can reach, but that shouldn't come as a surprise ;)

Legally speaking every school is obliged to hold a 'daily act of collective worship' which must be of a Christian character unless the school has applied for a special dispensation to change it to that of a different religion. All students are obliged to participate unless their parents opt them out: sixth formers can opt themselves out but younger students can't. Some schools ignore these laws, but they're put at risk of failing their Ofsted inspection even if they're otherwise exemplary (my old secondary school was in this situation when I went there).


Proof please, coz I simply do not belive that. We had a prayer at morning assembly when I went to primary school, but that was back in umm 1978, but we had nowt like that when I went to secondary school, and my son's primary school never had anything remotely similar, even though the headmistress was a raving Christian.

Oppps I just read your proof and consider my self proved wrong. Well Who'da thunk it.

Yes. It is.
No, it isn't. TAG! YOU'RE IT!

Your failure or refusal to see the bias that drives your own perceptions does not change the fact that Smunkee does not exhibit the attitudes and behaviors of an "unreasonable" person. Does she get a little defensive when others verbally attack Christianity? Sure. I get defensive when others verbally attack things I value, too. Don't you feel defensive of things that you like and that matter a lot to you?

It is not valid to judge people as "unreasonable" just because they defend things/concepts/arguments that they like. Being partial to something is not unreasonable. Denying others the right to be partial to other things would be unreasonable, but Smunkee has never -- NEVER -- done that. Quite the opposite, in fact.

So all I can conclude from your statements here is that you are either not sufficiently familiar with Smunkee's posting history to have an accurate idea of her, or you are so biased against her that you refuse to listen to what she really says or to what others tell you about her. Ignorance or bias -- either way, you are still wrong about her.

Now, do we want to hijack this into a Smunkee thread, or would you like to take a break from your own defensiveness and get back to the topic?

Oh come now, is mormonism any more goofy than any other religion? Is some guy named smith being given golden plates by god any more bizarre than 8 armed gods of death or an angelic rebellion being the source of evil in the world?

Yes. Mormonism gets a lot more goofier than that. Mormonism is super goofy. Also a lot of the other stuff can be interpreted as allegory or analogy. The Mormon church excommunicates those who did not believe this crap to be 100% literally true.

Yes. Mormonism gets a lot more goofier than that. Mormonism is super goofy. Also a lot of the other stuff can be interpreted as allegory or analogy. The Mormon church excommunicates those who did not believe this crap to be 100% literally true.

Still not as goofy as Scientology.

Yes and no... For example, there's a way in which a non-Mormon and a Mormon (and I believe) a Muslim would find themselves together in the same place. Atheists, pagans, etc. all there and it is considered a part of Heaven, not hell.

Yes, the truly faithful church members who complete all that's required of them will be able to access a place none other can reach, but that shouldn't come as a surprise ;)

Interesting. See, that's why I like judaism. The whole principle of judaism and converts, and "faithful" is

"yes we have things that god commands us to do, the mitvot, but we don't really expect you to follow them, because god gave us the Torah, god gave us his word, we are the chosen people, not you, and if god wanted you to follow these, he would have had you be born jewish.

It's ok though because while everybody needs to be a basically good person, but nobody's perfect, and when we die we all go through some spiritual cleansing, and how bad you were determines how long you're there, but we all get through it, unless you're really really really bad in which case you might just disappear, but we're not sure that anyone could be THAT bad. So really, thank you for your interest, we're glad you want to be jewish, but all the same, we'd really rather you didn't"

Well Mormonism has detailed doctrines concerning the afterlife that isn't a simple dichotomy of heaven/hell. :)

Doesn't it still, though, punish you or reward you based on something as inconsequential as a belief? That is, you'll be tortured (or at least punished) for being of the wrong religion, and rewarded for being of the correct one? And your final destination is eternal; that is, once you die, there's nothing you can do to move up? I admit I am less familiar with Mormonism than I am with other denominations of Christianity, but that's my understanding of it, based on how it has been explained to me by one of my friends (who used to be a Mormon.)

Anyway, my take on this, not that anybody cares.

There are certain aspects of Christianity that I dislike. Christianity tends to slow down scientific growth. While many Christians have come to accept Evolution, for example, there was a point where almost no Christians accepted it-- not based on evidence, but because of faith. Because of this, I think we'd be a good bit further in our understanding of Evolution had we not had to fight religion to even get where we are-- and we still have to fight a good bit.

I also find it irrational, like other religions. I see no evidence in favor of it, so I do not believe it. I don't choose to not believe; I simply do not. And (the majority of) Christians say that I will be tortured for eternity for this... and that it's a good thing that I will! (Because everything God does is necessarily good, or else he is not God-- at least, according to the Christian conception of God) Now, I don't much like the idea of being tortured, oddly enough. So I don't like people who desire to see me being tortured.

Lastly, I'm concerned when Christianity does things like telling Africans that there are at least two countries that intentionally coat their condoms with AIDS so that they can wipe out Africa. That's a complete lie, and anybody who does it or endorses it has the blood of thousands of people on their hands. (Incidentally, it wasn't even some crazy nutjob that did this... it was an Archbishop, and the Church refuses to contradict him, implicitly endorsing him.)

However, there are plenty of Christians whom I respect and consider friends. I disagree with them and occasionally debate them on the issue, but friends can disagree on issues just fine. I find some of them to be very intelligent-- but even brilliant people can have some pretty silly ideas. I mean, Newton was an alchemist! That doesn't make his contribution to Science any less great.

The thing is, people are complex and are rarely defined entirely by one issue. I find that there is a higher concentration of judgmental dickwads in Christianity(and this is, of course, anecdotal experience: I happen to live in Georgia, which has a higher percentage of hard right-wing Christians... a huge SBC congregation), but that doesn't mean that any given Christian has to be that way. Plenty aren't, and I have no quarrel with them.

Still not as goofy as Scientology.

None are as goofy as Goofyism

http://www.goofyism.org/

I knew before I googled that it would exist.

Yes. Mormonism gets a lot more goofier than that. Mormonism is super goofy. Also a lot of the other stuff can be interpreted as allegory or analogy. The Mormon church excommunicates those who did not believe this crap to be 100% literally true.

Actually that last line isn't true. It takes quite a bit to be excommunicated from the Church and there's no 'thought police' making sure you believe anything.

Interesting. See, that's why I like judaism. The whole principle of judaism and converts, and "faithful" is

"yes we have things that god commands us to do, the mitvot, but we don't really expect you to follow them, because god gave us the Torah, god gave us his word, we are the chosen people, not you, and if god wanted you to follow these, he would have had you be born jewish.

It's ok though because while everybody needs to be a basically good person, but nobody's perfect, and when we die we all go through some spiritual cleansing, and how bad you were determines how long you're there, but we all get through it, unless you're really really really bad in which case you might just disappear, but we're not sure that anyone could be THAT bad. So really, thank you for your interest, we're glad you want to be jewish, but all the same, we'd really rather you didn't"

Interesting, so it's sort of like the old Catholic Purgatory doctrine?

Doesn't it still, though, punish you or reward you based on something as inconsequential as a belief? That is, you'll be tortured (or at least punished) for being of the wrong religion, and rewarded for being of the correct one? And your final destination is eternal; that is, once you die, there's nothing you can do to move up? I admit I am less familiar with Mormonism than I am with other denominations of Christianity, but that's my understanding of it, based on how it has been explained to me by one of my friends (who used to be a Mormon.)



I wouldn't call it punishment so much as a sort of progressive reward. All the levels of Heaven are wonderful, with increasing degrees of glory w/respect to the faithfulness of the person there. Even the 'lowest' level is far, far from punishment.

The Mormon equivalent of Hell is Outer Darkness, but you'd actually have to work at it to go there. It's not just a catch-all for people who don't believe, the way Hell is for Evangelical Christians.

Proof please, coz I simply do not belive that. We had a prayer at morning assembly when I went to primary school, but that was back in umm 1978, but we had nowt like that when I went to secondary school, and my son's primary school never had anything remotely similar, even though the headmistress was a raving Christian.

Oppps I just read your proof and consider my self proved wrong. Well Who'da thunk it.

Never underestimate the power of the Dark Side! :D

tease :p

Also, if you want a bottle lemme know, I might be able to get my man in brighton to swing another one, I can leave it at the store and you can pick it up, heh.
Thanks, but actually, I'm a little too broke for good vodka at the moment. I might TG you about it when I get out of the weeds though. :)

Also, you should tell me more about the totemic belief of yours, always been interested. Is it mostly african based or a blend of various?
Not African at all. It's good, old, folk-tradition Euro-style animism -- the kind us white folks like to act all surprised that we still do it, as if we weren't aware. ;) And being an animist, and being in the USA where everything gets jumbled up together, I do venerate a mix of gods and spirits with whom I feel a personal connection, ranging from the dead of my own family, to the notable dead of Somerville (like James Miller, Minuteman, aged 65, who died on the hill by the Cota-Struzziero-McKenna funeral home, fighting the British; according to the marker, his last words were, "I am too old to run"; my hero), to a variety of ethnic gods and spirits. :)

Does that mean you're going to jack off less, or more, from now on?

No it means Im going to jack off in a different way :rolleyes:

No it means Im going to jack off in a different way :rolleyes:
So, just a lateral move then. Well, I'm sure you'll have fun. 'Bye.

Interesting, so it's sort of like the old Catholic Purgatory doctrine?

Sorta...except purgatory was where the people not good enough for heaven or bad enough for hell went to (those neither purified nor burdened by mortal sin). Everyone, on the other hand, goes to Sheol

Thanks, but actually, I'm a little too broke for good vodka at the moment. I might TG you about it when I get out of the weeds though. :)

Pft don't worry about it, if ya want one lemme know, I know a guy who knows a guy....


Not African at all. It's good, old, folk-tradition Euro-style animism -- the kind us white folks like to act all surprised that we still do it, as if we weren't aware. ;) And being an animist, and being in the USA where everything gets jumbled up together, I do venerate a mix of gods and spirits with whom I feel a personal connection, ranging from the dead of my own family, to the notable dead of Somerville (like James Miller, Minuteman, aged 65, who died on the hill by the Cota-Struzziero-McKenna funeral home, fighting the British; according to the marker, his last words were, "I am too old to run"; my hero), to a variety of ethnic gods and spirits. :)

Slight aside, you ever read the book "American Gods" by Neil Gaiman?

And that sounds like my kinda guy.

So, just a lateral move then. Well, I'm sure you'll have fun. 'Bye.

my monkey theory is becoming more and more supported.

I wouldn't call it punishment so much as a sort of progressive reward. All the levels of Heaven are wonderful, with increasing degrees of glory w/respect to the faithfulness of the person there. Even the 'lowest' level is far, far from punishment.

The Mormon equivalent of Hell is Outer Darkness, but you'd actually have to work at it to go there. It's not just a catch-all for people who don't believe, the way Hell is for Evangelical Christians.

I still have a problem with the idea that faith is a virtue. If faith is a virtue, would not its opposite, reason/evidence, be a vice?

Would not a good and just God reward people only for their actions, for how they treat other people, how they impact the world and make it a better (or worse) place? Why is he concerned with something as silly as whether we realize he exists or not?

And what's with finite actions having eternal consequences anyway? That seems disproportionate to me...

What's the highest level of reward than an atheist is able to achieve? What if he doesn't abide by the Christian deontological moral standard, but by a consequentialist one based on concern for others? For example, take hypothetical atheist Bob. Bob doesn't believe in God; he has (consensual) premarital sex, sometimes has open relationships, uses birth control, etc. etc.
But Bob is a really great guy. Fairly generous, a good friend, always tries to be moral, in that he does his best to not do wrong to others.
What sort of place does he end up in for his afterlife? Is it, say, better than Earth? Worse?

And after death, why can't you improve your position? If Christian theology is true, then what's so special about death to make it such a dividing line? Your soul is the same as it was before, right? You're still the same person... so why can't you repent then, when you have access to better information?

Sorry if these seem like dumb questions, but I'm not really familiar with the Mormon perspective on this. (Hell, I'm hardly familiar with the mainstream Christian perspective on these issues. They usually just evade answering me or, once they find out I'm an atheist, just try to evangelize to me instead of have an intelligent discussion. :()

Smunkee is a fundie. You cant really expect her to see reason.

(a) No, she isn't. Definitely not in the way that you're using it.

(b) Smunkee wasn't trying to prove that Christians are oppressed or that Christianity isn't a majority religion, so the response to her was silly.

(c) The idea that a group cannot be oppressed if they are in the majority is not "reason". It is ridiculous. There are numerous historical examples of a majority group being oppressed by a minority one. The quickest one to come to mind is apartheid in South Africa.

(a) No, she isn't. Definitely not in the way that you're using it.

(b) Smunkee wasn't trying to prove that Christians are oppressed or that Christianity isn't a majority religion, so the response to her was silly.

(c) The idea that a group cannot be oppressed if they are in the majority is not "reason". It is ridiculous. There are numerous historical examples of a majority group being oppressed by a minority one. The quickest one to come to mind is apartheid in South Africa.

Didn't somebody make a post once where they modified the graph to show congressional representation instead, and found that Christians are overrepresented in the US Government anyway?

Not that I disagree with you in general, and I know you probably would agree that American Christians are far from being oppressed or anything. Just sayin'.

Christians I do not like at all

http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_church

my monkey theory is becoming more and more supported.

What monkey theory?

See, my thoughts were along those lines, being as I've been married to two.

(NOT AT THE SAME TIME!)

:p

And yes, for you new people, I am one, too.

Sure, you'd like us to think that, wouldn't you?
:D

Smunkee is a fundie. You cant really expect her to see reason.

That's just unpleasant.

The problem I have with christianity, and indeed with any religion that actively seeks converts, is it's designed, over centuries of development, to do just that. Christianity especially is the hard sell. In order for a religion that seeks converts to survive, it has to establish itself as "true". To do so, it needs to instill in its members not only the belief that it's correct, but the belief that there will be dire consequences if you stray. And that mentality gets passed down, generation to generation, engrained in the psyche of christians everywhere

Now I'm not saying all christians are like this, I'm merely saying that it's awfully convenient for christianity that it just so happens that the loving and caring god will punish us for all eternity if we step out of line. I'm not saying it's true or false, I'm just saying, looking through a historicla perspective, if I were to design a religion, that's something I'd stick in there.

If you don't mind me saying so, this sounds more like a problem with organized religion than a problem with any particular religion.

Debatable.

If you really think Smunkee is close-minded and unreasonable you should reread her posts. She is certainly devout, but not close-minded and unreasonable.

well it goes either way. Eternal punishment for not believing, eternal reward for believing, same thing really, with the same effect.

I have yet to encounter a christian sect that argues for neither heaven nor hell for believers and non believers alike.

Are you looking for a sect that doesn't believe in an afterlife at all? Or one that believes in some sort of neutral afterlife?


Especiall if one reads her posts and sees how defensive she gets whenever anyone says anything remotelly critical of Christianity or the religious

...except she doesn't. She does respond defensively to bigotry - even bigotry against groups to which she does not belong.

If you don't mind me saying so, this sounds more like a problem with organized religion than a problem with any particular religion.

not true. As I said, religions that do not have a focus on conversion and gathering converts often don't have such concepts, or, if they do, are not often discussed in order to get people to "see the light"

If you don't mind me saying so, this sounds more like a problem with organized religion than a problem with any particular religion.

Eh, not really. You can be a Christian, not a part of any organized church, but still say you have to be a Christian (of any sort) to go to heaven and that everybody else goes to Hell. I know several such Christians, though they try to weasel around the Hell bit at times... but if you get them to be completely honest, they do believe it.

Example conversation. Not a specific one, you see, but the general idea of some of them:
"Well, uh... you see, it's... well, yes. I do believe non Christians don't go to heaven."
"So they go to Hell?"
"Well..."
"Other than Heaven, is there any other possible after life?"
"Well, no..."
"So non Christians go to Hell?"
"I didn't say that."
...

But this person (who is actually a combination of several people I know.) did, indirectly say that!

Sorta...except purgatory was where the people not good enough for heaven or bad enough for hell went to (those neither purified nor burdened by mortal sin). Everyone, on the other hand, goes to Sheol

Ok gotcha. Thanks.

I still have a problem with the idea that faith is a virtue. If faith is a virtue, would not its opposite, reason/evidence, be a vice?

I don't think faith and reason are opposites at all. I see them both as components of Wisdom. They must work together.

"Faith... must be enforced by reason... when faith becomes blind it dies."
-Mahatma Ghandi

“Science without religion is lame, religion without science in blind”
-Albert Einstein


Would not a good and just God reward people only for their actions, for how they treat other people, how they impact the world and make it a better (or worse) place? Why is he concerned with something as silly as whether we realize he exists or not?


On some level, people who are good people who don't find their faith are rewarded. They chose to do good when they could have chosen evil. That does count for something.

But the thing that makes faith so important is because faith carries with it a certain amount of courage and a desire to reach for something higher. That too must be accounted for.


And what's with finite actions having eternal consequences anyway? That seems disproportionate to me...

Maybe. But it's hardly unusual. When you're 18 if you steal a car, that felony will still be on your record when you're 90.


What's the highest level of reward than an atheist is able to achieve? What if he doesn't abide by the Christian deontological moral standard, but by a consequentialist one based on concern for others? For example, take hypothetical atheist Bob. Bob doesn't believe in God; he has (consensual) premarital sex, sometimes has open relationships, uses birth control, etc. etc.
But Bob is a really great guy. Fairly generous, a good friend, always tries to be moral, in that he does his best to not do wrong to others.
What sort of place does he end up in for his afterlife? Is it, say, better than Earth? Worse?

He'll find a place in Heaven. (And yes, it's a LOT better than this place.) And it's a comfortable, happy place to be. The problem is that Bob will know, throughout eternity, that he could have had more.


And after death, why can't you improve your position? If Christian theology is true, then what's so special about death to make it such a dividing line? Your soul is the same as it was before, right? You're still the same person... so why can't you repent then, when you have access to better information?


On some level that too is possible under certain circumstances. That's why Mormons perform posthumous Baptism.


Sorry if these seem like dumb questions, but I'm not really familiar with the Mormon perspective on this. (Hell, I'm hardly familiar with the mainstream Christian perspective on these issues. They usually just evade answering me or, once they find out I'm an atheist, just try to evangelize to me instead of have an intelligent discussion. :()

I saw no dumb questions. :)

Are you looking for a sect that doesn't believe in an afterlife at all? Or one that believes in some sort of neutral afterlife?


I can't answer for NA, but I find the idea of punishing people for thoughtcrime repulsive. I can understand a religion that bases its reward merely on your actions and how you treat other people, but never one that punishes you for being wrong.

Didn't somebody make a post once where they modified the graph to show congressional representation instead, and found that Christians are overrepresented in the US Government anyway?

Not sure. I'm fairly certain that it's true, though.


not true. As I said, religions that do not have a focus on conversion and gathering converts often don't have such concepts, or, if they do, are not often discussed in order to get people to "see the light"

An organized religion has to focus on gathering converts to survive, though. It has to convince others that it is correct.

Personal religion doesn't need this - and Christianity can fall under that umbrella. But an organized religion will die out without new converts.


Eh, not really. You can be a Christian, not a part of any organized church, but still say you have to be a Christian (of any sort) to go to heaven and that everybody else goes to Hell. I know several such Christians, though they try to weasel around the Hell bit at times... but if you get them to be completely honest, they do believe it.

Indeed, but NA seemed to have a problem with a religion that actively seeks converts in order to survive. That sounds, to me, like pretty much any organized religion.

This doesn't mean, of course, that individuals won't try to validate their own religion by convincing others.

I can't answer for NA, but I find the idea of punishing people for thoughtcrime repulsive. I can understand a religion that bases its reward merely on your actions and how you treat other people, but never one that punishes you for being wrong.

I have a problem with that as well.

In my view, it's the journey that's most important in religion, not the destination.

Sure, you'd like us to think that, wouldn't you?
:D

Brother, I couldn't be free of my ex wife fast enough. Even now, if we didn't have kids together...

I am a Christian and want to know how many people like and hate us.This is a international problem.Christians are persecuted everyday more than muslims and jews(no offense!)


So since this problem is around the globe I put it here.

If Jesus loves you, why does it matter what other people think? :rolleyes:

Ok gotcha. Thanks.



I don't think faith and reason are opposites at all. I see them both as components of Wisdom. They must work together.

"Faith... must be enforced by reason... when faith becomes blind it dies."
-Mahatma Ghandi

“Science without religion is lame, religion without science in blind”
-Albert Einstein

I think it depends what you mean by faith. By faith I mean any belief that is not supported by or believed because of evidence, whereas reason is, well, belief that is held because of evidence. By that definition, they are opposites, no?
How would you define the two?


On some level, people who are good people who don't find their faith are rewarded. They chose to do good when they could have chosen evil. That does count for something.

Ah, I see. That's much more generous than mainstream Christianity. :)


But the thing that makes faith so important is because faith carries with it a certain amount of courage and a desire to reach for something higher. That too must be accounted for.

I wouldn't say that faith is inherently courageous. If anything, it's an attempt to shield oneself from doubt and fear instead of confronting it head one. I would say it's much more courageous to look out at the unknown and say "wow, I don't know." Ignorance can certainly be frightening to some, though it really shouldn't be. Everybody is ignorant about something.

But isn't basing your afterlife, even in part, on your belief essentially punishing thoughtcrime?


Maybe. But it's hardly unusual. When you're 18 if you steal a car, that felony will still be on your record when you're 90.

Well, that's not really eternal, is it? :p
But I do disagree with that policy anyway. Once somebody has served their time, they should not be further punished.


He'll find a place in Heaven. (And yes, it's a LOT better than this place.) And it's a comfortable, happy place to be. The problem is that Bob will know, throughout eternity, that he could have had more.

Hm.
As I mentioned earlier, that is much more generous than most Christians. I still don't like the idea of what I feel to be thoughtcrime, but I'd take it over Hell.

On some level that too is possible under certain circumstances. That's why Mormons perform posthumous Baptism.

See, that doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps it's my consequentialist outlook on morality, but being baptised does not make you a more moral or ethical person... so why should it matter?

Though, to what extent is that possible under Mormon theology? How much does it improve one's position? And can the dead person do something themselves, in their afterlife, to change their position, or do they have to rely on others to do it for them?


I saw no dumb questions. :)
Thanks. I just feel woefully ignorant about Mormonism, as it is less common around here.

First of all wrong forum but as a mod will move it soon anyway here goes.

Christians are not persecuted all over the world, they may be told off, they may be ridiculed for their beliefs but they are not persecuted.

The first evidence of wrongdoing is the blanket denial of wrong doing and the trivialization of human suffering.

Interesting. See, that's why I like judaism. The whole principle of judaism and converts, and "faithful" is

"yes we have things that god commands us to do, the mitvot, but we don't really expect you to follow them, because god gave us the Torah, god gave us his word, we are the chosen people, not you, and if god wanted you to follow these, he would have had you be born jewish.

It's ok though because while everybody needs to be a basically good person, but nobody's perfect, and when we die we all go through some spiritual cleansing, and how bad you were determines how long you're there, but we all get through it, unless you're really really really bad in which case you might just disappear, but we're not sure that anyone could be THAT bad. So really, thank you for your interest, we're glad you want to be jewish, but all the same, we'd really rather you didn't"

Of course, the down side of the Jewish position on conversion is the rather ridiculous "God likes me best, and nothing you can do will change that, not even if you're a wonderful person and I'm a complete git" attitude that all too often accompanies it.

Brother, I couldn't be free of my ex wife fast enough. Even now, if we didn't have kids together...

Managed to pick the lock and run away? ;)

AS far as I know, according to Mormons... you can die atheist and go to a heaven thats not so great like the others.... On this heaven angels will come to try to convert you. If you accept you go to a plus heaven. The ones that are Mormons from the start and all their lives go to the super heaven and they can become gods themselves and have their own universe to take care.

If you are an atheist and reject god during life and after life youll remain in the low class heaven for some time and then simply dissapear into nothingness.

Correct me if Im wrong.

I've very little time for religion. The philanthropy and charity it induces? Yes, an excellent fucntion, but not one religion exclusively can fuflfil. But the other implications it has for the lives of its adherents, and geopolitics? No. Frankly, predicating politics upon the mistranslated and misconstrued words of one of many religious teachers is risable.

The first evidence of wrongdoing is the blanket denial of wrong doing and the trivialization of human suffering.

So if I deny killing my brother (who is alive an well by the way), its the first evidence that I did it?

Especially if one reads her posts and sees how defensive she gets whenever anyone says anything remotely critical of Christianity or the religious

:eek:

You mean Smunkee actually stands up when she sees an attack on something she deems worth defending? Oh, for shame! :rolleyes:


KofL, your already-withered leg to stand on has been kicked out from under you by better than I. I'll just say that your impressions of Smunkee need more seasoning if all you've seen is "fundamentalist" behavior. Standing up to unjust criticism, even -- especially -- if it's criticism of something you don't believe in, is the sign of a progressive and compassionate intellect, not a regressive or fundamentalist one.

So if I deny killing my brother (who is alive an well by the way), its the first evidence that I did it?

If you couple that with the trivialization of human suffering, then yes. Didn't you read the whole post you quoted?

E.G.: "I did NOT kill my brother! Besides, murder is overrated."

That's a bit suspicious.

AS far as I know, according to Mormons... you can die atheist and go to a heaven thats not so great like the others.... On this heaven angels will come to try to convert you. If you accept you go to a plus heaven. The ones that are Mormons from the start and all their lives go to the super heaven and they can become gods themselves and have their own universe to take care.

If you are an atheist and reject god during life and after life youll remain in the low class heaven for some time and then simply dissapear into nothingness.

Correct me if Im wrong.

For some reason, that made me think of a MormonCat ascending to Heaven and asking "I can haz univerz?"

For some reason, that made me think of a MormonCat ascending to Heaven and asking "I can haz univerz?"

ROFLMFAO!!

http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/funny-pictures-cat-sign-jesus.jpg

I think it depends what you mean by faith. By faith I mean any belief that is not supported by or believed because of evidence, whereas reason is, well, belief that is held because of evidence. By that definition, they are opposites, no?
How would you define the two?

The Church defines faith as "hope for things which are not seen, but which are true." A person who has gained Faith in the way we think of it has done so because of their own reason.

In Mormon theology, a person converts by a direct, personal, individual testimony from the Holy Spirit. A person who has that experience can't prove it to others, but it is proven to him/herself by means of direct personal experience. Their reason is the tool by which they understand what to make of it. The experience and understanding that come with it are the evidence.


Ah, I see. That's much more generous than mainstream Christianity. :)


And more consistent with the Bible, I'd say.


I wouldn't say that faith is inherently courageous. If anything, it's an attempt to shield oneself from doubt and fear instead of confronting it head one. I would say it's much more courageous to look out at the unknown and say "wow, I don't know." Ignorance can certainly be frightening to some, though it really shouldn't be. Everybody is ignorant about something.


I dunno about that. The phrase "leap of faith" comes from the idea that sometimes the greater risk is to remain faithful.

If a person just wants to shield oneself, then their belief is based on fear. Faith is based on hope.


But isn't basing your afterlife, even in part, on your belief essentially punishing thoughtcrime?

No, because one's actions reflect their level of faithfulness, but faith is an act, not just a thought. You can think about the concept of faith all day long and even tell yourself that you're not a person of faith, or that your faith is the strongest of any human alive. Ultimately the only thing that makes any difference is what you DO with it. Do you choose to be kind to others, or do you choose to be selfish? Do you commit to following Jesus Christ, or do you reject Him as a savior? Do you choose to become Baptized, or do you avoid it? Do you choose to go to the Temple to do the work that will unlock for you the gates of the awesomest parts of Heaven, or is it enough to just sit back and let that slide? Those are the things that make the difference.

I know that mainstream Evangelical Christianity focuses on teh concept of salvation as being little more than a person's thoughts changing, but it's not so simple in Mormon theology.


Well, that's not really eternal, is it? :p
But I do disagree with that policy anyway. Once somebody has served their time, they should not be further punished.


Understandable.

But we get one and only one shot here on earth. We either spend this time demonstrating our faith and desire to improve ourselves, or we can waste it on selfishness and indulgence. Think of this time on earth as a sort of exam you only get to take once.


Hm.
As I mentioned earlier, that is much more generous than most Christians. I still don't like the idea of what I feel to be thoughtcrime, but I'd take it over Hell.


I see it from the opposite perspective: Not a punishment of thoughts, but a reward proportional to the way the person lived life.


See, that doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps it's my consequentialist outlook on morality, but being baptised does not make you a more moral or ethical person... so why should it matter?


For whatever metaphysical reason, Baptism by immersion is considered absolutely essential for a person to become a Christian. Lots of people, good people, have lived their entire lives without access to the Gospel or to baptism. This is a way to restore fairness.


Though, to what extent is that possible under Mormon theology? How much does it improve one's position? And can the dead person do something themselves, in their afterlife, to change their position, or do they have to rely on others to do it for them?

The way it works is this: In the afterlife (Heaven doesn't come into play until after Judgement Day sometime in the future) there are those, like I mentioned above, who didn't have the chance to gain an understanding of the Gospel. There, they're taught about it much like Missionaries do here on Earth. When we do a posthumous Baptism for them, then they, on the other side, can choose to accept that Baptism or not.


Thanks. I just feel woefully ignorant about Mormonism, as it is less common around here.

yeah not exactly the mainstream, is it? ;)

If you couple that with the trivialization of human suffering, then yes. Didn't you read the whole post you quoted?

E.G.: "I did NOT kill my brother! Besides, murder is overrated."

That's a bit suspicious.

The post that quoted the post I quoted did not trivialized human suffering, it said that being taunted for your beliefs doesnt counts as being persecuted...something I agree with.

E.G. "Ok I taunted my brother.... but I didnt kill him"

Thats not the first evidence of murder. Specially since my brother isnt death.

And yes Im pretty sure that if cats could have a religion, they would be mormons.

I'm a christian. We're pretty good people individually. It seems like when we gather into large groups that we get pretty stupid. Which is probably why Christ didn't want us to.
That applies to everyone.

I wasn't always a Christian, my obsession with quantamn physics is what led me to Christian faith. I can deal with "the universe always was". The law of chaos can snap something into nothingness. And then from there stuff happens.

But it all seems too quincidental, a sentinent force could be driving the stars. More importantly, it may take a wise celestial force to save us from the dying universe. Which obviously wouldn't happen more more years then we have numbers for, but it will be somebody's problem someday. And the fact is this Earth has seen better days and we might not be here much longer..


I'd like to think I'm a Christian living in the real world. I don't go to church, my nose isn't always stuck between a Bible, I just live my life the same way I did prior, sept now I have a little faith that things will get better for me and everybody else. That's it.

AS far as I know, according to Mormons... you can die atheist and go to a heaven thats not so great like the others.... On this heaven angels will come to try to convert you. If you accept you go to a plus heaven. The ones that are Mormons from the start and all their lives go to the super heaven and they can become gods themselves and have their own universe to take care.

If you are an atheist and reject god during life and after life youll remain in the low class heaven for some time and then simply dissapear into nothingness.

Correct me if Im wrong.

Not exactly. Refer to what I've been saying to Pirated Corsairs for details on most of that but I will say that the 'super heaven' you refer to is that highest level I mentioned, and you don't have to have been a Mormon your whole life to get there. You just have to be a member of the Church in good standing, have gone to the Temple process necessary, and remain Temple worthy.

And nobody disappears into nothingness. Each person who goes to any level of Heaven will live forever. Whether it's possible to advance I don't know, but I do know there's no disappearing. :)

Managed to pick the lock and run away? ;)

More like chewed through my own leg.

The Church defines faith as "hope for things which are not seen, but which are true." A person who has gained Faith in the way we think of it has done so because of their own reason.

The odd thing is though, that just because you hope something is true, it says nothing about something actually being true. It doesn't matter if you hope that the earth's core is made from strawberry jello, it's either true or it's not regardless of what someone hope's. That has nothing to do with reason.
And more consistent with the Bible, I'd say
But shitloads of people say "nowaaaai", who's right?For whatever metaphysical reason, Baptism by immersion is considered absolutely essential for a person to become a Christian. Lots of people, good people, have lived their entire lives without access to the Gospel or to baptism. This is a way to restore fairness.
Why does it need to be restored? Why aren't they fine as they are?
You just have to be a member of the Church in good standing, have gone to the Temple process necessary, and remain Temple worthy.
Wich church, and why not the countless of other churches?

To finally get around to actually answering the OP...
What is your opinion on Christians?
I am a Christian and want to know how many people like and hate us.This is a international problem.Christians are persecuted everyday more than muslims and jews(no offense!)


So since this problem is around the globe I put it here.
It depends upon the christian, if they have a persecution complex then I have a very low opinion of them, same holds true fundies.

If the christian is happy with being christian and with me not being christian, then I have no problem with them.

Ok Neo Brettonia, since you are a mormon Ill take your word. Now, could you please explain what that thing about the devil trying to coinvince god about a different plan for human salvation?

That applies to everyone.

I wasn't always a Christian, my obsession with quantamn physics is what led me to Christian faith. I can deal with "the universe always was". The law of chaos can snap something into nothingness. And then from there stuff happens.

But it all seems too quincidental, a sentinent force could be driving the stars. More importantly, it may take a wise celestial force to save us from the dying universe. Which obviously wouldn't happen more more years then we have numbers for, but it will be somebody's problem someday. And the fact is this Earth has seen better days and we might not be here much longer..


I'd like to think I'm a Christian living in the real world. I don't go to church, my nose isn't always stuck between a Bible, I just live my life the same way I did prior, sept now I have a little faith that things will get better for me and everybody else. That's it.

Sorry to nitpick, but you're too reasonable a poster to post a spelling error like that, even as cute as it is. Coincidental -- again, US pronunciation blurs the o-i non-diphthong into a conflated mess, producing your spelling. Completely understandable. I'll be off now, back to the Word Cave. Sorry.

Not exactly. Refer to what I've been saying to Pirated Corsairs for details on most of that but I will say that the 'super heaven' you refer to is that highest level I mentioned, and you don't have to have been a Mormon your whole life to get there. You just have to be a member of the Church in good standing, have gone to the Temple process necessary, and remain Temple worthy.

And nobody disappears into nothingness. Each person who goes to any level of Heaven will live forever. Whether it's possible to advance I don't know, but I do know there's no disappearing. :)



More like chewed through my own leg.

Coyote ugly personality, eh? I understand how a lifelong limp could be worth the effort.

I think it's based on figures for the US, ...No, it is not.
http://adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

The odd thing is though, that just because you hope something is true, it says nothing about something actually being true. It doesn't matter if you hope that the earth's core is made from strawberry jello, it's either true or it's not regardless of what someone hope's. That has nothing to do with reason.

True, which is why I didn't leave it at just that definition.

The meat is in the rest.


But shitloads of people say "nowaaaai", who's right?


The Mormons, of course ;)

But seriously, if one takes a completely faction-neutral reading of the Bible, there are a great many elements that are incorporated into Mormon theology that are not a part of Evangelism.


Why does it need to be restored? Why aren't they fine as they are?


Well, based on the premise that Baptism is absolutely required, and the fact that a lot of people lived and died without ever hearing the name of Jesus Christ, it would hardly be fair for them to not have the same opportunities as we do just because of when and where they lived.


Wich church, and why not the countless of other churches?

Based on the premise that when one recieves the Testimony of the Truth from the Holy Spirit, then the path of the truth is revealed.

Ok Neo Brettonia, since you are a mormon Ill take your word. Now, could you please explain what that thing about the devil trying to coinvince god about a different plan for human salvation?

Sure.

A little background first to make sure we're on the same page.

Back before the world was made, the Plan of Salvation was being formed. One propsed solution, tossed out there by Lucifer, was that all of us would be placed on the Earth but we would not have free will. Lucifer would guide us like uppets and none of us wuld be lost, we'd all return to Heaven in the end, and to Lucifer would go the glory. Then, Jehovah proposed that we be given free will so that those who were faithful to God would be sincere, and this able to continue to g row, and the glory would go to God the Father. Jehovah's plan was accepted, Lucifer's was rejected, and in his anger he rebelled against God and 1/3 of the spirits in Heaven followed him, and were cast out.

The other 2/3 were to be sent to Earth to live, acquire a physical body, and be tested. (Us) So, just the fact that you're reading this means you've already made the first good decision ;)

(That was a massive simplification, but we can always fill in the details later if you're interested.)

No, it is not.
http://adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

I think he was referring to the Pac-man type chart
not that one

Coyote ugly personality, eh? I understand how a lifelong limp could be worth the effort.

Well it was either that or somebody was gonna spend a lifetime wearing a straight jacket.

:eek:

You mean Smunkee actually stands up when she sees an attack on something she deems worth defending? Oh, for shame! :rolleyes:


KofL, your already-withered leg to stand on has been kicked out from under you by better than I. I'll just say that your impressions of Smunkee need more seasoning if all you've seen is "fundamentalist" behavior. Standing up to unjust criticism, even -- especially -- if it's criticism of something you don't believe in, is the sign of a progressive and compassionate intellect, not a regressive or fundamentalist one.

I love internet scoldings.


To be honost, I dont really care if you guys agree with how I see someone. How she behaves towards me is what I judge my opinions on.


Guess how much I care if you agree with me or not, or if you think I have a 'withered leg to stand on'?

Cmon, guess.


EDIT: Anyway, on topic. How do I see Christians? Most of you are irritating. Some of you are tolerable. Some of you are pretty cool. But most are irritating.

I am a Christian and want to know how many people like and hate us.This is a international problem.Christians are persecuted everyday more than muslims and jews(no offense!)


So since this problem is around the globe I put it here.

Yes, I am Christian and I agree that Christians are the most persecuted world wide. 160,000 world wide are killed every year based solely on them being christian, not talking about war casualties or accidents or anything, but purely because people knew they were Christian, and killed them for that.

Check out the Voice of the Martyrs. Its very depressing to see what happens.

Then again, its also depressing to see what so called "christians" have done against others. No excuse for that either. In fact, I don't really consider them Christians, based on their actions, and I think there is that authority there to be able to decide that.

Anyways, remember, as we are one body, we are to partake in the suffering world wide. If the body breaks a bone, pains shoots all over right? So just uplift those persecuted in your prayers every chance.


Peace and blessing,
Zilam.

Sure.

A little background first to make sure we're on the same page.

Back before the world was made, the Plan of Salvation was being formed. One propsed solution, tossed out there by Lucifer, was that all of us would be placed on the Earth but we would not have free will. Lucifer would guide us like uppets and none of us wuld be lost, we'd all return to Heaven in the end, and to Lucifer would go the glory. Then, Jehovah proposed that we be given free will so that those who were faithful to God would be sincere, and this able to continue to g row, and the glory would go to God the Father. Jehovah's plan was accepted, Lucifer's was rejected, and in his anger he rebelled against God and 1/3 of the spirits in Heaven followed him, and were cast out.

The other 2/3 were to be sent to Earth to live, acquire a physical body, and be tested. (Us) So, just the fact that you're reading this means you've already made the first good decision ;)

(That was a massive simplification, but we can always fill in the details later if you're interested.)


Oh no, dont even try... Im a faithfull atheist, thank god. But I love to know about religions.

So tell me, for Mormons god, the holy spirit and Jesus are three separate entities, right?

Especiall if one reads her posts and sees how defensive she gets whenever anyone says anything remotelly critical of Christianity or the religiousAnd that although she cannot even say why she defends what she defends. She cannot put into words her own convictions, she merely features a vague gut feeling.
And that is the exactly perception I have of most Christians: no substance if you ask a little deeper, and faith just out of convenience and mental laziness.

Yes, I am Christian and I agree that Christians are the most persecuted world wide.

You would...


160,000 world wide are killed every year based solely on them being christian

I'm sure you have a source for that, right? Becuase I have it on good authority that eleventy billion jews are killed for their religion every hour

I am a Christian and want to know how many people like and hate us.This is a international problem.
Refusing to ignore the negative side of Christianity is not a problem.

Yes, I am Christian and I agree that Christians are the most persecuted world wide. 160,000 world wide are killed every year based solely on them being christian, not talking about war casualties or accidents or anything, but purely because people knew they were Christian, and killed them for that.

Zilam.

Wow...160,000 sounds like quite a lot. You have any idea of similar sites like VOW about other faiths?
Any idea how many Muslims or Jews are killed every year for their faith alone?
Any idea of how many atheist ?

It would be nice to compare... so we can be sure that Christians are the most persecuted world wide

Yes, I am Christian and I agree that Christians are the most persecuted world wide. 160,000 world wide are killed every year based solely on them being christian, not talking about war casualties or accidents or anything, but purely because people knew they were Christian, and killed them for that.

You wanna prove any of that dribble? And then, of course, show how many people of other religions are killed just for their religion, to show that Christians get it the worst (proportionally, because they are the largest group)?


Or are you incapable? Just hoping no one would call you on that BS?

Christians are a far too diverse group to have a resonable and non-prejudice opinion of the group as a whole. The question is inherrently flawed.

Personally I have no problem with Christians, as long as they are not extreemists who's beliefs lead to bigtory or denial of proven fact. As for the fundis, they can kiss my ***.

That's a horrifying question to ask.

Oh no... not another one of these! As (Most of) you on this forum know, I am a Christian. I hate how some people say "ZOMG! WE IS TEH BEING OPPRESSED!" Get a clue, WE'RE NOT BEING OPPRESSED! We are the LARGEST religious group in the world, and you're complaining about being oppressed? We have it good almost anywhere! In the US we have "In God we trust" on our MONEY! In Europe Christianity is the largest religion there! (Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm 99% sure it is) We have over 2 BILLION people who believe! A THIRD of the world! In the middle east Christianity is becoming more popular! Heck, we've got people who are Christians in China and India! And yet you have some yelling about how oppressed they are. It really PO's me. Ah well, I'm probably just in a bad mood (I still agree with everything in this post). I need a cookie. *Grabs suger cookie. Enjoys*

Christians are a far too diverse group....No they are not. They all share the belief in the Jesus tale and the jewish tales leading up to Jesus. Hence the name "Christians". And once one has recognized Christianity as the crap that it is, there is no need to respect Christians for their beliefs.

No they are not. They all share the belief in the Jesus tale and the jewish tales leading up to Jesus. Hence the name "Christians". And once one has recognized Christianity as the crap that it is, there is no need to respect Christians for their beliefs.

You can respect people, even if you dont respect their belief. I know christians who are actually very good people, deserving of respect.

You can respect people, even if you dont respect their belief. I know christians who are actually very good people, deserving of respect.Even if the purpose of their being "good" is wrong?

You can respect people, even if you dont respect their belief. I know christians who are actually very good people, deserving of respect.

You'll never convince UB of that...

Even if the purpose of their being "good" is wrong?

Whats a good purpose to be good?

Whats a good purpose to be good?The well-being of a fellow creature. If one is only good because that one believes some god commands thus and one wants to placate that god and be rewarded in some afterlife, that's a bad purpose. Christianity is the opposite of altruism, you know.

I am a Christian and want to know how many people like and hate us.This is a international problem.Christians are persecuted everyday more than muslims and jews(no offense!)


So since this problem is around the globe I put it here.

It depends on the Christian. I like reasonable Christians who follow the example of Christ and are good to others. I hate the fundamentalist Christians who think the entire nation should have its laws based on their religion and that we're all going to hell if we don't hate teh gays and protest abortion.

And Christians aren't persecuted in the United States. They're generally the ones persecuting the rest of us (pagans, atheists, muslims, etc.)

The well-being of a fellow creature. If one is only good because that one believes some god commands thus and one wants to placate that god and be rewarded in some afterlife, that's a bad purpose. Christianity is the opposite of altruism, you know.

Altruism is a perversity.

The well-being of a fellow creature. If one is only good because that one believes some god commands thus and one wants to placate that god and be rewarded in some afterlife, that's a bad purpose. Christianity is the opposite of altruism, you know.

Not all Christians are good for the same reasons (not all Christians are good at all). I do know a guy who once told me that if there wasnt hell he would have already killed a couple of people and laid a couple of married women. BUT not all christians feel like this. Empaty, caring for the well-being of a fellow creature, does not depends of your religion or lack of it.

For some Christians the reward/punishment after death system defines their morals, for others its just an extra. There are Christians who would still behave good even if there was no reward for them after death or se they have told me.

...the example of Christ...roflol

that means the complete submission under the jewish god and the doctrines assigned to him. the gospel says jesus had come exclusively for the jews, because his god has no love for others. the love of jesus od his god does not come unconditionally, it is only given for obedience.

the gospel says jesus had come exclusively for the jews, because his god has no love for others.


Im not a Christian, but even I am calling bullshit. Please cite that passage.

Not all Christians are good for the same reasons (not all Christians are good at all). I do know a guy who once told me that if there wasnt hell he would have already killed a couple of people and laid a couple of married women. BUT not all christians feel like this. Empaty, caring for the well-being of a fellow creature, does not depends of your religion or lack of it.

For some Christians the reward/punishment after death system defines their morals, for others its just an extra. There are Christians who would still behave good even if there was no reward for them after death or se they have told me.so what is the reason, purpose, or even benefit, of being or becoming a christian?

so what is the reason, purpose, or even benefit, of being or becoming a christian?

I dont think there is one REASON to be Christian...purpose or benefit I dont know.

But that doesnt means that you shouldnt respect someone just because they are christians.

Your
Christian == Evil
Christian == asshole
theory doesnt holds up.

Oh no, dont even try... Im a faithfull atheist, thank god. But I love to know about religions.

So tell me, for Mormons god, the holy spirit and Jesus are three separate entities, right?

Correct.

I am a Christian and want to know how many people like and hate us.This is a international problem.Christians are persecuted everyday more than muslims and jews(no offense!)

Please explain HOW the Christians are the persecuted ones? From my knowledge of history Christians are the ever prosecuters. (Roman conversion, crusades, inquisitions, witch hunts, colinization/missionarism, holocaust [Hitler was a Catholic, and was never excommunicated]). I am both gay, and a wytch (Wiccan, magic...), and I can tell you, it's the christians who make me live as though I were in your hell. I feel I can honestly blame christianity itselve for this, considering how these practices are dictated to you in your bible (try reading leveticus). There are, of course, those who are guilt free, but throughout history, they are few and far inbetween.

Whats a good purpose to be good?

I can give you several.

1. It keeps other people off your back.
2. It increases the probability (although it doesn't in any way guarantee it) of your being well-treated by other people.
3. If you can find other people who feel the same way, it generates a beneficial feedback loop.


The "Golden Rule," (do unto others as you would have them do unto you) is older than Christianity, after all.

Although the negative Golden Rule (don't do to others what you wouldn;t want done to you) is better.

Because if I followed the Golden Rule, well... I'd run up to pretty girls in the street and tacklesmooch them. Because that's what I want them to do to me.

I believe that UB meant that the only good reason to be good was altruism, not pragmatism...in the form of Im being good because I dont want to be punished by the allmighty.

I believe that UB meant that the only good reason to be good was altruism, not pragmatism...in the form of Im being good because I dont want to be punished by the allmighty.

Mature Christians do not think in those terms.

"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:18

Mature Christians can be altruistic because a) they love others and b) they have faith in God, not because they fear the punishment of God.

Pft don't worry about it, if ya want one lemme know, I know a guy who knows a guy....
Excellent! I like knowing guys who know guys. ;)

Slight aside, you ever read the book "American Gods" by Neil Gaiman?

And that sounds like my kinda guy.
One of my favorite recent novels. I was kind of amazed at how well he described a animistic cosmology. I have no idea whether he meant to. He's a damned good writer, too, isn't he?

my monkey theory is becoming more and more supported.
I wouldn't bet against it. ;)

Mature Christians do not think in those terms.

"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:18

Mature Christians can be altruistic because a) they love others and b) they have faith in God, not because they fear the punishment of God.

You tell 'em Dragon!

One of my favorite recent novels. I was kind of amazed at how well he described a animistic cosmology. I have no idea whether he meant to. He's a damned good writer, too, isn't he?

Gaiman strikes me as the kind of guy who means to do exactly what he does.

He is also, incidentally, speaking at MIT on Friday the 23rd, and I, also incidentally, just might have an extra ticket :p

It is true that Christians are persecuted in some countries, but I do not think that this is what you are getting at. Christians are not persecuted in any liberal democratic nation. However, that does not mean that they are well liked.

Christian institutions have been pretty much at the forefront of evil throughout the world. Christian institutions tortured and burned people to death in the name of their faith. They have resisted abortion and birth control and now the world is overpopulated and natural habitats have been destroyed to make room for all of the people and animals have become endangered and extinct.<SNIP>.

Bold mine.

I hate it when people mention this kind of stuff. Do you really think that the resistance to abortion and birth control has made much of a difference? Most the population and population growth occurs in non-Christian countries (China and India for example almost 2.5 billion people).

No they are not. They all share the belief in the Jesus tale and the jewish tales leading up to Jesus. Hence the name "Christians". And once one has recognized Christianity as the crap that it is, there is no need to respect Christians for their beliefs.
There are only two features that ALL Christians share in common:

1) Jesus, and

2) You being a pain in their ass.

Item (2) they also share with non-Christians, btw.

Gaiman strikes me as the kind of guy who means to do exactly what he does.

He is also, incidentally, speaking at MIT on Friday the 23rd, and I, also incidentally, just might have an extra ticket :p
Hm... you tempt me...

I'll bring the beer. :)

Im not a Christian, but even I am calling bullshit. Please cite that passage.

he did say that. im not sure where but im thinking that it had something to do with samaritans.

Hm... you tempt me...

In more ways than one I hope ;)

I'll bring the beer. :)

I'll bring my repertoire.

But seriously, if you want the ticket, TG me and we can make some arrangements.

Gaiman strikes me as the kind of guy who means to do exactly what he does.

He is also, incidentally, speaking at MIT on Friday the 23rd, and I, also incidentally, just might have an extra ticket :p

So. Jealous.

he did say that. im not sure where but im thinking that it had something to do with samaritans.

He very well may have, but when UB says something, can you blame me for calling for a source?

In more ways than one I hope ;)



I'll bring my repertoire.

But seriously, if you want the ticket, TG me and we can make some arrangements.
TG'd. :)

He very well may have, but when UB says something, can you blame me for calling for a source?

No need. UB is just a troll with a high post count.

Im not a Christian, but even I am calling bullshit. Please cite that passage.matthew 15:24
"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

No need. UB is just a troll with a high post count.Forum troll that is. In real life folks like Mormons, Scientologists, or Jews are trolls.

TG'd. :)

replied

Forum troll that is. In real life folks like Mormons, Scientologists, or Jews are trolls.

Duly noted.

matthew 15:24
"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
Out of context!!

The whole story is as follows:

A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."

Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."

He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.

He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."

"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."

Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Forum troll that is. In real life folks like Mormons, Scientologists, or Jews are trolls.

So you need fire or acid?:rolleyes:

PS: Granted, Scientologists do troll

He very well may have, but when UB says something, can you blame me for calling for a source?

no.

but UB is usually correct within his world-view.

no.

but UB is usually correct within his world-view.

I still have to find someone who isnt correct "withing his world-view":rolleyes:

Sorry about the lack of response to the critics, I had to do a final. :headbang:


Prepare for a sauce explosion:

http://religion.propeller.com/story/2007/06/27/christians-the-most-persecuted-people-group-on-earth
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/17916.htm
http://erikbrewer.wordpress.com/2008/05/04/christians-the-most-persecuted-people-group-on-earth-2/
http://www.persecutionblog.com/
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1069633/posts
http://www.letusreason.org/Persecut.htm
http://watch-unto-prayer.org/IDOPPC.html
http://www.persecution.net/
http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2002/10/07/islamic-persecution-of-christians/
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/jun/04/religion.booksnews
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/17718.htm
http://candst.tripod.com/boston3.htm
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/543493/posts

Just google search "Christian persecution"

Also, the results of Christians killed world wide are varying now from source to source, the lowest being 55,000, and the highest being 500,000-1 millions, each year, for faith alone. The most common number I saw was 160,000 and 250,000. Take it as you will.

Do you have information from other religious to compare?

And how about those persecuted for not having a religion?

Forum troll that is. In real life folks like Mormons, Scientologists, or Jews are trolls.

Neo B? > http://eatourbrains.com/EoB/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/troll.jpg

Tasty with ketchup.

Neo B? > http://eatourbrains.com/EoB/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/troll.jpg

I beg your pardon. This troll clearly has the wrong color hair.

Mine is lime green...

Simply being devoutly religious does not make her unreasonable.

Surely religion is at its very essense an 'unreasonable' belief? What reasonable path of logic can lead us to a belief in God?

I'm not saying that it's WRONG, but I think it does seem very 'unreasonable'.

I beg your pardon. This troll clearly has the wrong color hair.

Mine is lime green...

If you look like one of these:
http://z.about.com/d/collectdolls/1/0/N/X/trolls06c.jpg
I´m keeping you to myself.:D

I still have to find someone who isnt correct "withing his world-view":rolleyes:

oh really? ive known plenty

If you look like one of these:
http://z.about.com/d/collectdolls/1/0/N/X/trolls06c.jpg
I´m keeping you to myself.:D

Apparently Neo B would be the one in the green dress with the purse.

It depends on the Christian. I like reasonable Christians who follow the example of Christ and are good to others. I hate the fundamentalist Christians who think the entire nation should have its laws based on their religion and that we're all going to hell if we don't hate teh gays and protest abortion. I tend to agree here. I hate when fundamentalists, especially protestants, who argue in favour of Christian domination in politics and society. Did they forget what politics did to the Catholic Church for the 1100 yrs that it was the main church? Do they want a faith that is war, hate, intolerance, and evil?


And Christians aren't persecuted in the United States. They're generally the ones persecuting the rest of us (pagans, atheists, muslims, etc.)
This is where I disagree. Try being one of 350 christians on a campus of 12,000 students. Or try being a genuine Christian that speaks out against fundies. Or maybe just look around modern society. We are either generalized as prudes, or assholes. There is no middle ground for us. There is no neutral. For a country that is "predominantly" Christian, there is a lot of disdain for people of the faith.

Apparently Neo B would be the one in the green dress with the purse.

I´m still keeping Neo B if he looks like that. So cute!

I used to collect those dolls. They adorned the doll stand in my old room.

I´m still keeping Neo B if he looks like that. So cute!

I used to collect those dolls. They adorned the doll stand in my old room.

They always scared me. :( Even now they creep me out. I was subbing the other day and a student asked if I wanted to see his "good luck charm", so I said sure, and he took out a red-haired troll doll and I was like "aaaaah!...oh, that's nice." :(

oh really? ive known plenty

how can anyone be incorrect within his very OWN world-view? :eek:

I agree with you that they are not, but where in Western Countries do non-religious people face persecution?

I know he said around the world but I want to limit it to the more 'civilized' (if you will) parts of the world

We face persecution from the Christians who can't accept the fact that we don't follow their beliefs!

I know not all Christians are like that, but in my experience, many are.

They always scared me. :( Even now they creep me out. I was subbing the other day and a student asked if I wanted to see his "good luck charm", so I said sure, and he took out a red-haired troll doll and I was like "aaaaah!...oh, that's nice." :(

Well, I do have a morbid taste in things, let me tell you that. I always thought trolls looked and look cute, whereas all my girl friends growing up detested them and preferred cute dolls with ribbons and blonde curls. I abhor dolls.:p

how can anyone be incorrect within his very OWN world-view? :eek:

well gee, if, using ub as an example, jesus had NEVER said that he was only here for the lost lambs of israel, he would have been wrong no matter what his world view was.

Then what possible value is it in an intelligent discussion?

Intelligent discussion? Is that we're supposed to be doing here?

This is where I disagree. Try being one of 350 christians on a campus of 12,000 students. Or try being a genuine Christian that speaks out against fundies. Or maybe just look around modern society. We are either generalized as prudes, or assholes. There is no middle ground for us. There is no neutral. For a country that is "predominantly" Christian, there is a lot of disdain for people of the faith.

What the hell campus are you on where Christians are such a small percent?

But anyway, yeah. Christians are so marginalized in American culture. This is why when CNN did a segment on atheism, they got two Christians and a Jew to be on the panel, but no atheist.

That's why, in some states, atheists are explicitly denied rights in the state constitutions-- and almost nobody cares about it or thinks it's wrong.

That's why our money has "In God We Trust" on it-- and, let's be honest, they mean the Christian God specifically, whatever they may say.

That's why we have "under God" in our Pledge of Allegiance-- and almost everybody considers the atheist who wants it out as the bad guy! Yeah, how dare he try to remove a state sponsored endorsement of religious belief from the pledge that children have to say almost every day! (Yes, technically the schools aren't supposed to force them, but some do it anyway and get away with it just fine.)

That's why there is strong support for teaching Creationism in schools, either as an alternative to or in place of Evolution.

That's why almost all members of Congress and virtually every government official in the country is Christian-- a higher proportion than even our general population, the majority of which is Christian in the first place.

That's why about half the country would never vote for an atheist.

That's why religious organizations get automatic tax exemptions, even if they're used to earn a profit for some televangelist.

That's why there's a huge debate in which almost half the country thinks we should ban abortion and gay rights. Only by enforcing Christianity's moral standards can we truly marginalize Christians.

You say Christians are always depicted as prudes. No. It's those who seek to push their morality on others, who preach hellfire and tell people how horrible they are for daring to have premarital sex. A character is generally assumed to be a Christian unless otherwise stated or implied.

But do you want to look at the depictions of atheists?

Almost any character who is an atheist is depicted as bitter, and has almost certainly lost faith after some traumatic incident. They will almost always regain their faith in God by the end of the movie. Because, you know, atheists are deficient and are missing something. We can't be good, moral people. Or, so the media portrays us.

So, you want to talk about persecution or marginalization in the US? Pah! If you're a Christian, you have no right to talk about being marginalized in this country.

Surely religion is at its very essense an 'unreasonable' belief? What reasonable path of logic can lead us to a belief in God?

I'm not saying that it's WRONG, but I think it does seem very 'unreasonable'.
1) You are responding to my remark out of context. The accusation against Smunkeeville was that she was unreasonable because of a religious characterization that was applied to her by KoL. I pointed out behavior of hers that is evidence of a reasonable mind and not of an unreasonable fundamentalist, and argued that the mere fact of her religiousness obviously does not make her unable to think and behave reasonably -- you know, since she does it every day. The only way for KoL to argue otherwise would be to claim that actions that would be considered reasonable if done by anyone else, suddenly become unreasonable if done by a person who practices a certain kind of religion. I would consider THAT argument to be the unreasonable one, not anything said or done by Smunkee. Do you agree or disagree?

2) You seem to be suggesting that reasonableness is dependent on logic, which somehow would, I suppose, imply truthfulness or factuality? But such a conceptual connection does not really exist.

a) "Reasonable" implies that the person applies sound and balanced thought to whatever they are doing/talking about. You can apply sound and balanced thought to anything -- including things that are not dependent facts or logic.

b) I see no reason to tie the idea of "reasonable" to the idea of logic. While it is usually true that reasonable people are logical, it is equally or more true that logical people are often completely unreasonable. Hell, even paranoid schizophrenics can invent entirely logical "explanations" for their delusions or hallucinations, but that doesn't make them reasonable people.

c) I also fail to see why you would assume that religion is inherently unreasonable or illogical. Why do you assume that a person cannot apply sound and balanced thought to religious ideas/questions? Or if they are religious, that they can't apply sound and balanced thought to other things? Religion serves certain personal and social needs/purposes. What is illogical about that? Religion suggests answers to certain questions that science is not equipped to address. In other words, it is a kind of speculation. What is inherently illogical about speculation? If paranoid schizophrenics can be logical, why can't religious people who aren't crazy?

3) My bottom line on this is that an argument doesn't need to be true for it to be both logical and reasonable; and that logic implies neither truth nor reasonableness; and that an idea can be reasonable without being true (making any link from reasonableness to truth via logic moot); and that holding religious views has not been shown to affect the overall reasonableness of a person.

Lets not forget that during elections, candidates talk more about their reliegious belief than actual politics. :D:p

well gee, if, using ub as an example, jesus had NEVER said that he was only here for the lost lambs of israel, he would have been wrong no matter what his world view was.

I will agree that his world-view is wrong... but he within his world-view (wich ignored the fact that Jesus never said that) is right.

First of all wrong forum but as a mod will move it soon anyway here goes.

Christians are not persecuted all over the world, they may be told off, they may be ridiculed for their beliefs but they are not persecuted.

you mean in your country where peolpe have the right to worship any God you want and peolpe dont face persercution because of racism.

He said 'over the world' that dosent just mean US UK EU, it mean' US UK EU and the middil east(church's burnt, bishops murderd), Asia- Non-state based religions banned, undergound priests imprisoned.

To a lesser and less violent extent even the west has turned against religion in general- it is now uncool to be a catholic, preists are made fun of for wearing dresses, . peolpe are even trying to stop tax exemptions for churches. and have you heard that sompeolpe want to close all faith schools.

peolpe thow bricks into church windows.

i knew a priest who was beaten up so badly that the next year he died, this was in lincolnshire england.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3217731.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3217731.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3527032.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4182629.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/newsnight/2006/10/tuesday_24th_october_2006.html


now on the other hand not that many are murderd in UK for being christain, no one has ever percuted me, but then again i live in a country where there is religious fredom granted by law, that skill dosent stop all peple here from discrimination.

it is worse in other countries where the state is fundamentaly racist.
but overal we dont get the brunt of the racism as the muslims have to deal with a lot more genocides but that is usaly done by other muslim countries who are of a differnt tribe, u know sarhi va suni and all that. corse they have israil which persercutes peolpe who arnt jewish, so no that guy was wrong about us being the most discriminated but u are wrong as we do get persercuted all over the world, whether it is a sectitly secular country or a openly ant- christain state there is still a lot a persucution.

What the hell campus are you on where Christians are such a small percent?

But anyway, yeah. Christians are so marginalized in American culture. This is why when CNN did a segment on atheism, they got two Christians and a Jew to be on the panel, but no atheist.

That's why, in some states, atheists are explicitly denied rights in the state constitutions-- and almost nobody cares about it or thinks it's wrong.

That's why our money has "In God We Trust" on it-- and, let's be honest, they mean the Christian God specifically, whatever they may say.

That's why we have "under God" in our Pledge of Allegiance-- and almost everybody considers the atheist who wants it out as the bad guy! Yeah, how dare he try to remove a state sponsored endorsement of religious belief from the pledge that children have to say almost every day! (Yes, technically the schools aren't supposed to force them, but some do it anyway and get away with it just fine.)

That's why there is strong support for teaching Creationism in schools, either as an alternative to or in place of Evolution.

That's why almost all members of Congress and virtually every government official in the country is Christian-- a higher proportion than even our general population, the majority of which is Christian in the first place.

That's why about half the country would never vote for an atheist.

That's why religious organizations get automatic tax exemptions, even if they're used to earn a profit for some televangelist.

That's why there's a huge debate in which almost half the country thinks we should ban abortion and gay rights. Only by enforcing Christianity's moral standards can we truly marginalize Christians.

You say Christians are always depicted as prudes. No. It's those who seek to push their morality on others, who preach hellfire and tell people how horrible they are for daring to have premarital sex. A character is generally assumed to be a Christian unless otherwise stated or implied.

But do you want to look at the depictions of atheists?

Almost any character who is an atheist is depicted as bitter, and has almost certainly lost faith after some traumatic incident. They will almost always regain their faith in God by the end of the movie. Because, you know, atheists are deficient and are missing something. We can't be good, moral people. Or, so the media portrays us.

So, you want to talk about persecution or marginalization in the US? Pah! If you're a Christian, you have no right to talk about being marginalized in this country.

Again, making generalizations. Its easy to say "Oh we atheists are so persecuted by the christian majority", isn't it? But I try to tell you how I have faced it just as much, if not more, in the YEAR, just one YEAR, of being a Christian, and you think I am a liar, or exaggerating.

Again, making generalizations. Its easy to say "Oh we atheists are so persecuted by the christian majority", isn't it? But I try to tell you how I have faced it just as much, if not more, in the YEAR, just one YEAR, of being a Christian, and you think I am a liar, or exaggerating.

You'd have a point if I'd have simply said "no, we're persecuted more." But I didn't. I gave facts. You? "Waaah, Christians are so persecuted in the US."

No, they're not. If anything, it's the opposite: non-religious people face more persecution in many countries.

unless u live in a secular socity(europe/america/asia) or a sharia law state(middel east)

unless u live in a secular socity(europe/america/asia) or a sharia law state(middel east)

Secular societies don't persecute religious people; they stop religious people from persecuting non-religious (or differently religious) people.

Apparently Neo B would be the one in the green dress with the purse.

It's not a purse.... It's a fanny pack... over one shoulder...
And.. it's not a dress... it's a tunic....

If you look like one of these:
http://z.about.com/d/collectdolls/1/0/N/X/trolls06c.jpg
I´m keeping you to myself.:D

Woohoo! :fluffle:
El troll cantador solo para ti!

Intelligent discussion? Is that we're supposed to be doing here?

My bad.

I love internet scoldings.

Clearly.

You'll have to try and explain to me how defending your unprovoked attack on Smunkeeville qualifies as a "scolding". On second thought, don't. There's already enough BS in this thread.

To be honost, I dont really care if you guys agree with how I see someone. How she behaves towards me is what I judge my opinions on.

Which is why your opinion is biased and perceived by those who've chimed in as faulty. People who have also interacted with Smunkeeville. It is always telling when I hear someone ask the question "what is wrong with everyone else that they can't see how I'm being slighted" -- and telling more about the asker than anyone else. But hey, you don't care -- which makes me wonder why you bothered to reply.

Guess how much I care if you agree with me or not, or if you think I have a 'withered leg to stand on'?

You care SO little, you've asked the question twice.

Cmon, guess.

With an additional goad tacked on the end for a degree of difficulty of 3.1! Well done. You must really care...a...very...little....

EDIT: Anyway, on topic. How do I see Christians? Most of you are irritating. Some of you are tolerable. Some of you are pretty cool. But most are irritating.

Because you've met them all. Wariness based on prior encounters is one thing, writing off the vast majority is something else, but hey, you don't care.

Altruism is a perversity.

Thank you, Ayn Rand. Now read something else.

The "Golden Rule," (do unto others as you would have them do unto you) is older than Christianity, after all.

Although the negative Golden Rule (don't do to others what you wouldn;t want done to you) is better.

Because if I followed the Golden Rule, well... I'd run up to pretty girls in the street and tacklesmooch them. Because that's what I want them to do to me.

Even the ones with rancid breath and infectious, saliva-borne diseases? Seems to me the original Golden Rule is plenty. Circumstance is everything -- you wouldn't want them to jump you while you were with your wife (if you had one), would you? And no, the Golden Rule doesn't cover understanding spouses, 'cause finding one who'd be okay with that qualifies as a miracle...or a psychopathology.

Woohoo! :fluffle:
El troll cantador solo para ti!

Sí, ye sólo pa´ mi!!!

how can anyone be incorrect within his very OWN world-view? :eek:
The world view that acknowledges its own propensity to falsity is arguably the most consistent one. Given that our knowledge is entirely inferential, and non-trivial "truths" are thus only falsifiable, the assertion that things which are not provable are purely speculation is never actually refuted.

The world view that acknowledges its own propensity to falsity is arguably the most consistent one. Given that our knowledge is entirely inferential, and non-trivial "truths" are thus only falsifiable, the assertion that things which are not provable are purely speculation is never actually refuted.

ok... explain that again....S-L-O-W-L-Y:(

I am a Christian and want to know how many people like and hate us.This is a international problem.Christians are persecuted everyday more than muslims and jews(no offense!)


So since this problem is around the globe I put it here.

What goes around comes around. Christians have been responsible for the persecution of millions with the crusades, inquisition, witch hunts, homosexuals, abortion clincs, and so on.

Christians have a bloody history that, if anything, seems to be completely contradictory to the teachings of Jesus, their saviour. Christians as a whole seem to be the first to condemn anyone perceived as an sinner by their standards, ignoring the "judge not lest ye be judged" and the "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" concepts.

Maybe, just maybe, people are getting severely tired of a failing religion attempting to tell them how to live their lives when the people who practice that religion can't even seem to abide by their own rules.

I'm not in support of violence towards anybody for any reason, but you want to know why people hate Christians and that is my theory at least. Even within my personal experience, Christians -not all, but the vast majority- are the first to spew forth judgemental hatred to anyone that doesn't see eye to eye with them.

Thank you, Ayn Rand. Now read something else.
Oww... Even I felt that.

IntangelonRespectPoints++;

Christians, I find the question asked in the OP very vague. So many people call themselfs Christian, hell even I share some Christian views, and I am an a-theist/agnost. For 1 sole reason: why the héll do I need some kind of super-duper sky-pixy for morality? Really, love thy neighboors, love thy enemy, great things, but it has 0.00 to do with a big ol' man in the sky (or so to speak). Why does Jesus has to be a son of God, why does he even have to be real (in a distant past)? Fact is that the portrait of that person has a huge impact on our daily lives, who cares if he really existed or not? What's with the need for authority when it comes to moral? C'mon folks, you've got minds of your own.
Anyway, most Christian people I find ok, except for the real fundie one's. It's the basic views on reality though, and nót the one's about morality, wich irritate me a LOT.

The world view that acknowledges its own propensity to falsity is arguably the most consistent one. Given that our knowledge is entirely inferential, and non-trivial "truths" are thus only falsifiable, the assertion that things which are not provable are purely speculation is never actually refuted.
ok... explain that again....S-L-O-W-L-Y:(

Allow me...

T-h-e w-o-r-l-d v-i-e-w t-h-a-t a-c-k-n-o-w-l-e-d-g-e-s i-t-s o-w-n p-r-o-p-e-n-s-i-t-y t-o f-a-l-s-i-t-y i-s a-r-g-u-a-b-l-y t-h-e m-o-s-t c-o-n-s-i-s-t-e-n-t o-n-e. G-i-v-e-n t-h-a-t o-u-r k-n-o-w-l-e-d-g-e i-s e-n-t-i-r-e-l-y i-n-f-e-r-e-n-t-i-a-l, a-n-d n-o-n-t-r-i-v-i-a-l "t-r-u-t-h-s" a-r-e t-h-u-s o-n-l-y f-a-l-s-i-f-i-a-b-l-e, t-h-e a-s-s-e-r-t-i-o-n t-h-a-t t-h-i-n-g-s w-h-i-c-h a-r-e n-o-t p-r-o-v-a-b-l-e a-r-e p-u-r-e-l-y s-p-e-c-u-l-a-t-i-o-n i-s n-e-v-e-r a-c-t-u-a-l-l-y r-e-f-u-t-e-d.