NationStates Jolt Archive

We haven't had a thread like this in a while, so I decided to create another Communist/Capitalist thread... WITH A TWIST! :eek:

Can Capitalism/Communism ever be suppressed in a country (WITHOUT brainwashing via Brave New world)? Look in a Communist country, you've got a black market. Look in a capitalist country, you've got Communists either working in secret(If undemocratic), or trying to get elected (If democratic). Discuss please.

We haven't had a thread like this in a while, so I decided to create another Communist/Capitalist thread... WITH A TWIST! :eek:

Can Capitalism/Communism ever be suppressed in a country (WITHOUT brainwashing via Brave New world)? Look in a Communist country, you've got a black market. Look in a capitalist country, you've got Communists either working in secret(If undemocratic), or trying to get elected (If democratic). Discuss please.

Everything is possible in God´s World.:p
Meh, I sound too religious. Pardon the cliché.

You can capitalists can let us Communists operate all you like, but it's you're funeral because we sure as hell won't have any mercy, capitalists and their allies will be the first up against the wall for the firing squad.

Capitalists just think that they can placate the worker's with their 'democracy' and 'civil rights', true Communists see these concessions as nothing but a strategic opportunity which we can use to destroy capitalism.

We haven't had a thread like this in a while, so I decided to create another Communist/Capitalist thread... WITH A TWIST! :eek:

Can Capitalism/Communism ever be suppressed in a country (WITHOUT brainwashing via Brave New world)? Look in a Communist country, you've got a black market. Look in a capitalist country, you've got Communists either working in secret(If undemocratic), or trying to get elected (If democratic). Discuss please.

a) The easy way would be to just kill everyone, then there's neither.

b) The other way is to kill anyone that supports one of the two, and then there are none of them, and few will be willing to risk their necks for some stupid economic system.

a) The easy way would be to just kill everyone, then there's neither.

I left myself wide open for that one...:headbang:
b) The other way is to kill anyone that supports one of the two, and then there are none of them, and few will be willing to risk their necks for some stupid economic system.
Study history. Mankind NEVER learns. Ever heard of the forbidden fruit effect?

We haven't had a thread like this in a while, so I decided to create another Communist/Capitalist thread... WITH A TWIST! :eek:

Can Capitalism/Communism ever be suppressed in a country (WITHOUT brainwashing via Brave New world)? Look in a Communist country, you've got a black market. Look in a capitalist country, you've got Communists either working in secret(If undemocratic), or trying to get elected (If democratic). Discuss please.

No. You'll always have malcontents, it's part of living in a human society.

The US does a pretty good job of suppressing capitalism.

The US does a pretty good job of suppressing capitalism.
You win this thread!

The US does a pretty good job of suppressing capitalism.

Isn´t the US supposed to be the embodiment of Capitalism?

Isn´t the US supposed to be the embodiment of Capitalism?
Not anymore.

Not anymore.

It certainly is no Communism paragon nor Socialist ideal. What is the US now?

It certainly is no Communism paragon nor Socialist ideal. What is the US now?
Going rapidly towards the "Third way" as described by Bill Clinton. Also known as the fastest way to the "Thrid world". It's Capitalism being oh-so-slowly tainted by Communism.

Isn´t the US supposed to be the embodiment of Capitalism?

That's what it says on the tin. But really no. If you don't allow people to fail, it's not capitalism. It's just the most pathetic form of socialism.

At least real socialists man up and try and stop the shenanigans in the first place.

Any time a country decides that something is 'too big to fail' you know it is pretty much all over except for the fat lady.

Going rapidly towards the "Third way" as described by Bill Clinton. Also known as the fastest way to the "Thrid world". It's Capitalism being oh-so-slowly tainted by Communism.

Ha! My Hoosier buddy will be oh, so delighted to know this. He´ll make a party.

That's what it says on the tin. But really no. If you don't allow people to fail, it's not capitalism. It's just the most pathetic form of socialism.

Amen.

Ha! My Hoosier buddy will be oh, so delighted to know this. He´ll make a party.
Just out of curiousity, why will he be delighted to know this? Just curious.

Just out of curiousity, why will he be delighted to know this? Just curious.

Because he´s an American Communist.

That's what it says on the tin. But really no. If you don't allow people to fail, it's not capitalism. It's just the most pathetic form of socialism.


I'm reasonably sure that you can't say that people aren't being allowed to fail until people stop starving to death on the streets.

Because he´s an American Communist.
Ah. that explains it.
I'm reasonably sure that you can't say that people aren't being allowed to fail until people stop starving to death on the streets.
He's saying that if the government stops ANYBODY from failing, it's one step towards a long and dark road. Also known as Socialism.

He's saying that if the government stops ANYBODY from failing, it's one step towards a long and dark road. Also known as Socialism.

But why is Socialism a long and dark road? Spain is a socialist country, and our economy and society work fine.

I'm reasonably sure that you can't say that people aren't being allowed to fail until people stop starving to death on the streets.

Oh no, socialists are quite capable of accomplishing that feat too.

What I would suggest to you is that you lift your head upwards out of the gutter and actually pay attention to what is going on. The US has become 'bail-out' nation. And it is not about helping the poor. Privatize profit, socialize risk.

My complaints have nothing to do with social services. Hell, I would gladly exchange the some half trillion dollars that congress is preparing to spend this year in bailouts for programs that helped the genuinely needy.

But why is Socialism a long and dark road? Spain is a socialist country, and our economy and society work fine.
Spain's a socialist country? I didn't know that! *Wikis* Are you sure? If you are, then either:

A: Someone needs to edit the wikipedia article on Spain and it's economy
OR
B: We have a different definition of socialism.

But why is Socialism a long and dark road? Spain is a socialist country, and our economy and society work fine.

Actually, no they don't.

Oh no, socialists are quite capable of accomplishing that feat too.
Quite aware of that.

What I would suggest to you is that you lift your head upwards out of the gutter and actually pay attention to what is going on. The US has become 'bail-out' nation. And it is not about helping the poor. Privatize profit, socialize risk.
Ah, corporate welfare. Been awhile since I've seen that discussed.

Spain's a socialist country? I didn't know that! *Wikis* Are you sure? If you are, then either:

A: Someone needs to edit the wikipedia article on Spain and it's economy
OR
B: We have a different definition of socialism.

Yes, the PSOE won the last elections. Spain is socialist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_general_election,_2008

Before, my country was a Parliamentary democratic constitutional monarchy.

Actually, no they don't.

Yes, they do.

Quite aware of that.


Ah, corporate welfare. Been awhile since I've seen that discussed.

It's beyond corporate welfare. Favorable tax rates and credits, despicable though they are, don't insulate people from foolishness.

But now, the congress and the president are embarking on a huge program of wealth transfer from the prudent to the foolish. All in the name of 'stability'. Not capitalist by any stretch of the imagination. Just, as I said, the most pathetic form of socialism.

Yes, Socialism won the recent elections.
Oh. That explains it. I still think we have a different definition of socialism.

Yes, they do.

No, Spain's economy doesn't work. It's built on asset price inflation. The underlying credit/debt expansion cycle that allowed that to happen is now at an end. Spain is going to have a severe recession/depression.

Which will only be made worse by bulldozing all those houses.

Oh. That explains it. I still think we have a different definition of socialism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_general_election,_2008

No, Spain's economy doesn't work. It's built on asset price inflation. The underlying credit/debt expansion cycle that allowed that to happen is now at an end. Spain is going to have a severe recession/depression.

Which will only be made worse by bulldozing all those houses.

Not after the President´s last message on the state of affairs with the country. And recession has being predicted for the entire globe.

I live in the country, I do think our form of socialist economy works very well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish...election,_2008
They didn't win by THAT much. But I never contested that they won, I just said we (Probably) had a different definintion of socialism.

They didn't win by THAT much. But I never contested that they won, I just said we (Probably) had a different definintion of socialism.

Perhaps that´s it.

What do you consider socialism, if I may ask?

Perhaps that´s it.

What do you consider socialism, if I may ask?

Equal distribution of wealth and private property being abolished. Y'know, collectivist ideals.

Not after the President´s last message on the state of affairs with the country. And recession has being predicted for the entire globe.

I live in the country, I do think our form of socialist economy works very well.

Speaking to other ex-pats, yes, there is a lot to admire about the way spain works. Especially compared to the UK. It is certainly more efficient that the UK.

That said, it is the poster child for unsustainable growth. So, no the economy doesn't work. And it has nothing to do with socialism really.

Equal distribution of wealth and private property being abolished. Y'know, collectivist ideals.

That's communism.

You can capitalists can let us Communists operate all you like, but it's you're funeral because we sure as hell won't have any mercy, capitalists and their allies will be the first up against the wall for the firing squad.

Capitalists just think that they can placate the worker's with their 'democracy' and 'civil rights', true Communists see these concessions as nothing but a strategic opportunity which we can use to destroy capitalism.

My eyes rolled so hard, that they popped out of socket. Thank you. I have to go to the doctor now.

Equal distribution of wealth and private property being abolished. Y'know, collectivist ideals.

Model of Spanish Economics. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Spain#The_modern_Spanish_economy)

Only worry is the slowing of property sales.

Our definition of socialism differs in one aspect. Spain is a democratic socialist nation. This denomination advocates the equal distribution of the production for the people in a kind of commonwealth or republic system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

That's communism.
I view communism and socialism to be in the same,sinking boat. The differences are minor, at best. Except for the whole big government thing the Communists have going, and the socialists are more regional, split it up into small communities sort of thing.

That said, it is the poster child for unsustainable growth. So, no the economy doesn't work. And it has nothing to do with socialism really.

Whatever delusion serves you better, mate. I live in Spain, I see the economy system work every day. If you think it doesn´t, you´re entitled to your own twisted opinion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

This indicates that the means of production are owned by the entire population

I'm pretty sure Spain retains the private ownership of the means of production.

I view communism and socialism to be in the same,sinking boat.

And I see unfettered captlaism as already thoroughly sunk, from right around the late 1800's/early 1900's (standard oil/the Jungle anyone?)

aso for spain, they strike me as more of a Social Democracy

aso for spain, they strike me as more of a Social Democracy

Which is what I´ve been trying to convey.

Whatever delusion serves you better, mate. I live in Spain, I see the economy system work every day. If you think it doesn´t, you´re entitled to your own twisted opinion.

It's not an opinion. Spain's current account deficit is absolutely unsustainable. 9% of gdp more or less at last count. Only beaten by Greece.

That has to be paid back at some point.

But whatever.

Go Fascism!!

...

And of course, there is a reason why German 10yrs are more expensive than Spanish ones.

No, which is why we turn to manageable things...like the drug trade.

That's what it says on the tin. But really no. If you don't allow people to fail, it's not capitalism. It's just the most pathetic form of socialism.

At least real socialists man up and try and stop the shenanigans in the first place.

Any time a country decides that something is 'too big to fail' you know it is pretty much all over except for the fat lady.

Are we talking about "out of house and home and starving to death" allowed to fail or "no bailing out banks that abuse sub prime loans" fail?

Are we talking about "out of house and home and starving to death" allowed to fail or "no bailing out banks that abuse sub prime loans" fail?

Latter.

Are we talking about "out of house and home and starving to death" allowed to fail or "no bailing out banks that abuse sub prime loans" fail?

Eh? No the real poor, well what can you do with them. It's worth paying a few bucks in taxes to keep them off the streets. And hell, if someone is lazy and is just happy that way, I have no problem with that either. Go put your nose in the trough. As long as society can afford it, and prudently reserves for it, by all means. (Though just remember, you form the basis of our military manpower reserve, so spend the weekend, or week, playing five a side football! ;))

It's the bank shit that pisses me off. Fuck those gits. Makes me want to go back to my real socialist roots.

In a capitalist society communism isn't outlawed, people are free to organize into companies or communes.

In communist countries capitalism is outlawed but a capitalist black market will give the people what their government rations fail to provide.

One provides security, the other freedom. Each is useful in its own way and so cannot be suppressed.

I left myself wide open for that one...:headbang:

Study history. Mankind NEVER learns. Ever heard of the forbidden fruit effect?

Well really, if you had the resources and the intelligence to find out who is engaging in capitalism/communism, all you have to do is shoot them and then let everyone know it was because they supported the wrong economic system. Most people will be too afraid to do anything, and the others will be dead.

You can capitalists can let us Communists operate all you like, but it's you're funeral because we sure as hell won't have any mercy, capitalists and their allies will be the first up against the wall for the firing squad.

Capitalists just think that they can placate the worker's with their 'democracy' and 'civil rights', true Communists see these concessions as nothing but a strategic opportunity which we can use to destroy capitalism.

You know, I'm beginning to suspesct that you're really a right-wing troll, using hyperbolic pronouncements about Communism the way MTAE used to use patriotism.


Going rapidly towards the "Third way" as described by Bill Clinton. Also known as the fastest way to the "Thrid world". It's Capitalism being oh-so-slowly tainted by Communism.


I can't decide which of you two is the sillier.

I view communism and socialism to be in the same,sinking boat. The differences are minor, at best. Except for the whole big government thing the Communists have going, and the socialists are more regional, split it up into small communities sort of thing.

The differences are extremely major. Mostly the fact that the "small communities" sort have produced a plethora of successful and sustainable endeavors. Any of the vast number of mutuals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_organization), cooperatives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative), and other social enterprises (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_enterprise) are excellent examples. Some of the earliest socialist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_%28economic_theory%29) thinkers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectivist_anarchism) incorporated market-based voluntary association and trade, in contrast to the merchantilist and government interventionist approaches of their time. Such thought recognized that once liberated from the constraint and manipulation of the state and wealthy oligarchs, voluntary association and trade actually work quite well. This is the ideological foundation of today's successful social enterprises.

Socialism thrives, even if unfortunate ignorance moves people to pay Lenin, Stalin, and Mao far more attention than they deserve.

You know, I'm beginning to suspesct that you're really a right-wing troll, using hyperbolic pronouncements about Communism the way MTAE used to use patriotism.

I sometimes get a feeling he's just playing with us, posing as crazed commie kid, then lolling at our responses. :D

You know, I'm beginning to suspesct that you're really a right-wing troll, using hyperbolic pronouncements about Communism the way MTAE used to use patriotism.

Are you implying MTAE was a left-wing troll? :confused:

We haven't had a thread like this in a while, so I decided to create another Communist/Capitalist thread... WITH A TWIST! :eek:

Can Capitalism/Communism ever be suppressed in a country (WITHOUT brainwashing via Brave New world)? Look in a Communist country, you've got a black market. Look in a capitalist country, you've got Communists either working in secret(If undemocratic), or trying to get elected (If democratic). Discuss please.

Basically you are asking: is it possible to ever get the whole population to share x opinion on y matter? Which of course without some form of brainwashing, is impossible.

Neo-Feudalism

Are you implying MTAE was a left-wing troll? :confused:

No, he was just the best example of a troll I could think of.

You can capitalists can let us Communists operate all you like, but it's you're funeral because we sure as hell won't have any mercy, capitalists and their allies will be the first up against the wall for the firing squad.

Capitalists just think that they can placate the worker's with their 'democracy' and 'civil rights', true Communists see these concessions as nothing but a strategic opportunity which we can use to destroy capitalism.

!

So you admit that with us in power you are tolerated but if the situation were reversed we would be slaughtered?

Congrats, you quite literally handed the moral high ground to us on a silver platter.

!

So you admit that with us in power you are tolerated but if the situation were reversed we would be slaughtered?

Congrats, you quite literally handed the moral high ground to us on a silver platter.
I think his point was that having the moral high ground is a little pointless when you've lost. Communists aren't really a problem now as they've become a joke, but if you're fighting a strong enemy that doesn't care about taking the moral high ground, you've got to act as bad as them if you want to win. It's no good having the moral high ground when you're dead.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13667424']I think his point was that having the moral high ground is a little pointless when you've lost. Communists aren't really a problem now as they've become a joke, but if you're fighting a strong enemy that doesn't care about taking the moral high ground, you've got to act as bad as them if you want to win. It's no good having the moral high ground when you're dead.

Right. But there's not really a whole lot to fear from Andaras.

Well, think of it this way. Do you see many people pining for a return to feudalism in ... let's say, Europe, where it ruled for a good period of time? Ideologies changes, as do people. It's simply a matter of time.

!

So you admit that with us in power you are tolerated but if the situation were reversed we would be slaughtered?

Congrats, you quite literally handed the moral high ground to us on a silver platter.
I too seriously suspect trolling from a non-com(mie). If this aussie is a troll then he just slipped up.

Right. But there's not really a whole lot to fear from Andaras.
I understand that, which is why I said communists are a joke these days. Particularly the keyboard revolutionaries.

A country is capitalist while it still has private property, period. Spain isn't socialist, and that is no demerit. If it's a social democracy, it has private property and some hand of the governmet to equalize income distribution. If that's good or bad, people are entitled to their own opinions.

And about Andaras, it is a comfort to know that such lunatics aren't as numerous or powerful enough to accomplish anything in this generation, or even the next one. That is, if he believes what he claims to believe.

You can capitalists can let us Communists operate all you like, but it's you're funeral because we sure as hell won't have any mercy, capitalists and their allies will be the first up against the wall for the firing squad.

Yeah, there's this guy who hangs outside the student union and tells us sinners thats the rapture is coming and we're all in trouble. He makes me smile too.

A country is capitalist while it still has private property, period.

"Private property" in what sense?

"Private property" in what sense?

In the sense that the government allows you own and buy things? They still have that in Spain right?
I call China capitalist based on these assumptions too.

In the sense that the government allows you own and buy things?

Anything at all? That's true in plenty of socialist models as well, even the more radical ones.

The real question is whether the means of production--factories, etc.--are privately-owned.

You can capitalists can let us Communists operate all you like, but it's you're funeral because we sure as hell won't have any mercy, capitalists and their allies will be the first up against the wall for the firing squad.

Capitalists just think that they can placate the worker's with their 'democracy' and 'civil rights', true Communists see these concessions as nothing but a strategic opportunity which we can use to destroy capitalism.

this guy is really getting on my nerves...

must...resist...earge...to...humour him...

i think it would be possible for no organized movements anyway, the solution, make the current system as good as possible.