NationStates Jolt Archive

Well for a nice refreshing change from the Islamic threat to European society, I thought we'd take a look at the fall of Europe's middle class, as reported so amazingly by the New York Times:


For Europe’s Middle-Class, Stagnant Wages Stunt Lifestyle

By CARTER DOUGHERTY and KATRIN BENNHOLD
Published: May 1, 2008
LES ULIS, France — When their local bakery in this town south of Paris raised the price of a baguette for the third time in six months, Anne-Laure Renard and Guy Talpot bought a bread maker. When gasoline became their biggest single expense, they sold one of their two cars.

Anne-Laure Renard, a teacher, and Guy Talpot, a postal worker, sold one car and bought a bread maker to cut expenses. Prices have risen four times as fast as salaries in France in the last year.
Their combined annual income of 40,000 euros, about $62,500, lands Ms. Renard, a teacher, and Mr. Talpot, a postal worker, smack in the middle of France’s middle class. And over the last year, prices in France have risen four times as fast as their salaries.

At the end of every month, they blow past their bank account’s $900 overdraft limit, plunging themselves deeper into a spiral of greater resourcefulness and regret.

“In France, when you can’t afford a baguette anymore, you know you’re in trouble,” Ms. Renard said one recent evening in her kitchen, as her partner measured powdered milk for their 13-month-old son, Vincent. “The French Revolution started with bread riots.”

The European dream is under assault, as the wave of inflation sweeping the globe mixes with this continent’s long-stagnant wages. Families that once enjoyed Europe’s vaunted quality of life are pinching pennies to buy necessities, and cutting back on extras like movies and vacations abroad.

Potentially more disturbing — especially to the political and social order — are the millions across the continent grappling with the realization that they may have lives worse, not better, than their parents.

“I have this feeling that there is a wall in front of us,” said Axel Marceau, a 41-year-old schoolteacher living outside of Frankfurt. “We’re just not going to get any further.”

His concerns are well-founded. A study by the German Institute for Economic Research in Berlin found that the broad middle of the German work force, defined as workers making from 70 to 150 percent of the median income, shrunk to 54 percent of the population last year, from 62 percent in 2000.

Mr. Marceau’s father had a teaching job that afforded the family upward mobility, from owning a home to fancy ski vacations. But today, Mr. Marceau said, a new class of bankers, executives and other high earners has taken over. “I feel like we’ve been in a slow process of losing to the people up top,” he said.

“No one thought during the 1980s that they could possibly belong to a group of people who slide down the social scale,” said Markus Grabka, an economist at the institute for economic research. “No one had existential angst of the sort you have today.”

To be sure, Europe’s middle class is still larger than the number of people at risk of falling into poverty — and, by many measures, more protected than the American middle class. But policy makers worry that could change as the European economy starts to feel the drag of an American slowdown and high inflation.

“The problem,” said Julián Cubero, chief economist for Spain for BBVA, a leading Spanish bank, “is that if your salary rises more slowly than the cost of products you buy on a daily basis, you feel poorer every day.”

That simmering concern turned into anger last week in Britain. Striking teachers closed schools for the first time in two decades, protesting pay packages that did not keep pace with the soaring cost of living. Proposed raises were about 2.5 percent, while food has risen 7 percent and oil costs have surged 20 percent in Britain since this time last year.

The teachers’ rallying cry was just the latest to echo across the Continent.

German workers from several industries waged a series of strikes last month demanding a greater piece of the economic pie after years of being asked to make salary concessions — flexibility that, some economists argue, has helped a leaner, meaner Europe stave off recession so far.

In France, where purchasing power has replaced unemployment as Public Enemy No. 1, unions representing workers from teachers to factory workers have taken to the streets in protest.

This month, thousands of European workers converged on the capital of Slovenia, which currently holds the European Union’s rotating presidency.

Quantifying the squeeze on Europe’s middle class is tricky; there is no universal definition of middle class, and national agencies differ on how they calculate purchasing power, making cross-border comparisons difficult.

Tallying inflation is simpler: Since 1999, prices have risen 22.5 percent in the 27 member states of the European Union, and 18.8 percent in the 15 countries that use the euro.

Much of the declining purchasing power of European workers can be traced to those numbers, and to policy decisions and economic developments over the last decade when globalization began to reshape Europe and the world.

In Germany, Europe’s largest economy, the decline in purchasing power began in 2000, when employers started wresting wage concessions from unions, or simply shifting jobs to Eastern Europe and China.

Inflation-adjusted incomes rose from 1 percent to 2 percent in the late 1990s, but more than one million Germans lost full-time jobs during and after a recession in 2000 and 2001. Subsequently, workweeks got longer without extra pay, and from 2004 through 2007, inflation outpaced income increases for the average family.

In France, the 35-hour workweek kept average annual pay increases below 1 percent for nearly a decade, said Robert Rochefort, the director general of Credoc, an organization in Paris that researches living standards. But French hypermarkets — big-box supermarkets that dominate the retail market — kept prices high, he said.

Spain generated thousands of jobs by pumping up the housing market, but has undergone a joblessness jump since the turmoil in real estate markets while wages have been consumed by inflation.

“When I started working at 23, I earned almost the same wage that I earn now,” said María Salgado, a 37-year-old director of television documentaries living in Madrid. Fourteen years ago, her monthly salary of about 1,200 euros ($1,873), bankrolled a full social life.

No longer. “The well-to-do middle class has become the tight middle class,” she said. “I’m surprised we haven’t started a revolution.”

Instead, Ms. Salgado cut her fish purchases to once a week, switched to supermarket brands and away from health-food stores, and halved her visits to the psychotherapist. She spends some weekends with her children, Violeta, 9, and Juan, 4, at her ex-husband’s parents’ home in the countryside — a stressful arrangement, but one that enables her to avoid expensive weekends in Madrid.

“Violeta asked me, ‘Mama, are we poor?’ I said, ‘No, we’re not poor,’ ” Ms. Salgado recalled, laughing. “But the middle class used to live well. And if you have lived well, it’s hard to live so badly.”

Stagnant pay and soaring prices have hit Italy hardest. Recent statistics from the country’s main shopkeepers’ union showed consumer spending was down 1.1 percent in January from a year earlier, the biggest drop in three years. Leisure and recreation spending fell 5.5 percent.

Francesca Di Pietro, a secretary, and her partner, Gianluca Pompei, a project manager, are part of that trend. Since their son, Mario, was born nearly two years ago, they have spent little on entertainment.

“I’ve become anxious about unexpected expenses,” Ms. Di Pietro said. To stretch their monthly income of about 2,500 euros ($3,900), the couple has been getting hair cuts at the local beauty school, packing a lunch for work, buying secondhand clothes in market stalls and vacationing at campsites instead of hotels.

They have abandoned their dream of living in central Rome, from an outlying neighborhood.

“I look at people on the bus and they seem sad and beaten down,” said Ms. Di Pietro, referring to Italy’s malaise. “We’re 40 years old. We should be feeling more combative, but really all we feel is frustrated.”

Some European governments are promising relief, but their ability to curb inflation or raise pay is limited.

Italy’s warring political coalitions both ran in last month’s elections promising to lighten the financial burden of average Italians. Their proposals ranged from eliminating unpopular real estate taxes to subsidizing dental care.

In France, the administration of President Nicolas Sarkozy is, among other things, looking into charges of price gouging by food merchants.

German leaders are considering lower taxes. It may not be enough.

Frustrated unions are taking tougher stances in wage talks. Public sector employees, as well as workers in the steel and chemical industries, have recently won wage increases.

“The idea that ‘I will sacrifice to save my job’ is dying,” said Ralf Berchthold, a spokesman with Ver.di, the largest services union in Germany. “People are ready to fight now.”
I think it's a very interesting article to that leaves all the dicussion about the decling American economy and focuses on Europe's sick economy. What do people here think?

Anyway, thoughts? Is this actually happening, in your opinion? If not, what is the reality of the situation? If so, what can be done to avoid and ease the situation?

Also, have you personally noticed this when you were either living in Europe (for Europeans), or travelling there (for non-Europeans)???
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/01/business/worldbusiness/01middle.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5070&en=340525f2c0e28543&ex=1210219200&emc=eta1

Im a bad person. Because when I read this, my first thought was about all the Europians I knew who always would gloat about how America's economy was falling. I would often point out that a damaged American economy would hurt the world, and they all laughed at me and said I was deluded.

I read this now, think of them, and cackle.


Anyway, I have not personally seen or felt this, but it makes economic sense.

Good. Phase Two Complete (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13659796&postcount=6). With the destruction of both the US and European Economies no one will stand in the way of the Canadian Empire

Im a bad person. Because when I read this, my first thought was about all the Europians I knew who always would gloat about how America's economy was falling. I would often point out that a damaged American economy would hurt the world, and they all laughed at me and said I was deluded.

I read this now, think of them, and cackle.


Anyway, I have not personally seen or felt this, but it makes economic sense.

This must be a trait among Americans, schadenfreude in respect to Europeans. I feel the same guilty delight when I hear France is having trouble with immigrants, or that many Dutch are worried about multiculturalism.
I think it's because I actually envy the Europeans their governments, and it makes me happy to know they have the same problems the U.S. has. It's kind of like watching an amazing track athlete get hit by a car: not so high and mighty now, are you Mr. Track Athlete?

Good. Phase Two Complete (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13659796&postcount=6). With the destruction of both the US and European Economies no one will stand in the way of the Canadian Empire

I knew it...I've always been uncomfortable around maple syrup.

“The problem,” said Julián Cubero, chief economist for Spain for BBVA, a leading Spanish bank, “is that if your salary rises more slowly than the cost of products you buy on a daily basis, you feel poorer every day.”

This perfectly explains how Americans feel as well.

Simple solution is to blame the Communist. It worked 30 years ago. I mean look at Communist China and their capitalist money making machine.


As for Europe I always knew it would implode in on itself. You just can't maintain the level of bloated government programs that they have. Simple answer for the US and Europe is to cut government in half and give people back their own money. That would be one hell of a stimulus package for America and Europe.

As for globalization the best thing to do is think globally. Maybe people need to break out of the idea that you are going to live in the same area or even same country your whole life. Start looking for jobs where the money is at and think about other nations to invest in to hedge against falling currencies of a single nation. My wife and I started a couple years back at trying to hedge ourselves. So far it's worked out and we haven't felt the pinch as bad as some of our friends. So think globally and outside the box a bit would be my suggestion.

I wanna hear some Europeanoids dismiss this article and defend their socialist work laws.

it is worse then you thought on my trip to France just 2 weeks ago I secretly recorded this (the goverment having banned cameras)

http://youtube.com/watch?v=A6Vu5eu7XrQ

Simple solution is to blame the Communist. It worked 30 years ago. I mean look at Communist China and their capitalist money making machine.


As for Europe I always knew it would implode in on itself. You just can't maintain the level of bloated government programs that they have. Simple answer for the US and Europe is to cut government in half and give people back their own money. That would be one hell of a stimulus package for America and Europe.

As for globalization the best thing to do is think globally. Maybe people need to break out of the idea that you are going to live in the same area or even same country your whole life. Start looking for jobs where the money is at and think about other nations to invest in to hedge against falling currencies of a single nation. My wife and I started a couple years back at trying to hedge ourselves. So far it's worked out and we haven't felt the pinch as bad as some of our friends. So think globally and outside the box a bit would be my suggestion.
I really really really strongly agree with this post. I have quite the same attitude towards work and life as you and your wife do, judging from this post.

As my Italian teacher once told me, "we are citizens of the world"....those of us with the capability, intelligence, and money to do so, should travel and invest in the opportunities of the world, not just in a 30 mile radius of where we grew up.

When I was in the UK, a friend of mine from the US was shocked at how people would leave the meeting at 4.45 sharp to get ready to leave at 5 PM sharp. I mean we will be discussing "blah blah blah issue needs to be resolved..we got to meet deadlines" and the UK folks would say that he will get to it tomorrow and just plain leave.

It took some getting used to and I had to rein the guy in not to make any comments on this.

To be honest, most of them did give productive 8 hr work a day and not the general milling around, "coffee breaks", personal emails and browsing etc common in the same office of the same company in the US.

Not sure how it all relates to the topic...just wanted to share this..:p

When I was in the UK, a friend of mine from the US was shocked at how people would leave the meeting at 4.45 sharp to get ready to leave at 5 PM sharp. I mean we will be discussing "blah blah blah issue needs to be resolved..we got to meet deadlines" and the UK folks would say that he will get to it tomorrow and just plain leave.

It took some getting used to and I had to rein the guy in not to make any comments on this.

To be honest, most of them did give productive 8 hr work a day and not the general milling around, "coffee breaks", personal emails and browsing etc common in the same office of the same company in the US.

Not sure how it all relates to the topic...just wanted to share this..:p

Hmm don't know what US offices you hang around but maybe you need to take a trip down to my office and see what a cracking whip does. ;)

The teachers strike should not be included in an economic report. Teachers, alreadu earn more than your average nurse, police officer, soldier or fireman.

That being said however, The price of living is increasing dramatically with fuel hitting £1.15 per litre for petrol and £1.30 for diesel in the uk, forcing food prices and other goods up due to the sheer costs of transporting them.

This is happening all accross Europe and I do believe is happening in the US, hastened over there by a food shortage.

A global recession is inevitable and instead of delaying it, our short sighted world Governments should be preparing for it.

I hate to admit it but, this is one article of soom that paints a pretty accurate picrure.

Life in Europe is still pretty good for the middle class.

Well for a nice refreshing change from the Islamic threat to European society, I thought we'd take a look at the fall of Europe's middle class, as reported so amazingly by the New York Times:



I think it's a very interesting article to that leaves all the dicussion about the decling American economy and focuses on Europe's sick economy. What do people here think?

Anyway, thoughts? Is this actually happening, in your opinion? If not, what is the reality of the situation? If so, what can be done to avoid and ease the situation?

Also, have you personally noticed this when you were either living in Europe (for Europeans), or travelling there (for non-Europeans)???
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/01/business/worldbusiness/01middle.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5070&en=340525f2c0e28543&ex=1210219200&emc=eta1

I haven't seen it, but I'm not surprised. Nations with huge government handouts with an ageing and declining population tend to run into problems like these.

Life in Europe is still pretty good for the middle class.

Absolute, unquantified rubbish. Life for the middle classes in Europe is anything but pretty good.

Example: UK

Huge increase in reposessions. Huge increases in fuel duty and prices. Massive decrease in the lending market, marke increase in defaults in the lending sector, falling house prices (wouldn'rt be bad if people wernt having to pay more for day to day life)

My mother, a middle class person herself has already noted that my brother and I (22 and 23 respectively) have a greater chance of staying below the poverty line than she did when she was our age.

My rent has gone up nearly 33% in the past 3 years which, although still leaving it cheap at just over £240 a month, takes a huge dent out of my £600 p/m salary (after tax - thank you very much Gordon effing Brown). Luckily I don't run a car but after purchasing food for the month and paying for my gas/water and ewlectricity i'm already down to about £200 p/m for food, phone bill, internet bill and then other luxuries such as tobacco and alcohol.

Absolute, unquantified rubbish. Life for the middle classes in Europe is anything but pretty good.

Example: UK

Huge increase in reposessions. Huge increases in fuel duty and prices. Massive decrease in the lending market, marke increase in defaults in the lending sector, falling house prices (wouldn'rt be bad if people wernt having to pay more for day to day life)

My mother, a middle class person herself has already noted that my brother and I (22 and 23 respectively) have a greater chance of staying below the poverty line than she did when she was our age.

My rent has gone up nearly 33% in the past 3 years which, although still leaving it cheap at just over £240 a month, takes a huge dent out of my £600 p/m salary (after tax - thank you very much Gordon effing Brown). Luckily I don't run a car but after purchasing food for the month and paying for my gas/water and ewlectricity i'm already down to about £200 p/m for food, phone bill, internet bill and then other luxuries such as tobacco and alcohol.

£600p/m doesn't sound very middle class.

£600p/m doesn't sound very middle class.

Heh, im not middle class, im below the poverty line..

Ok, My mother:

]Nurse

Takes home after tax around about £900-1200 p/m dependant on how much overtime she woirks

Electricity/Gas/Water - £-100 - £-225 p/m dependant on cooking/washing/central heating

Food for her and my brother - £-200 p/m

Mortgage - £-350 p/m

That doesn't leave much for phone/mobile/internet/car - all luxuries.

Now a nurses salary before tax is about 20K (for my mums band anyways.)

A teacher earns maybe 3-4K more pre tax and they are considered working class. both are on the same tax band.

Since the article speaks of teachers as middle class then my mum is. I was brought up in a middle class home and i'm now stuck in McYD's trying to get by whilst waiting to go to university to get a degree in Broadcasting to try to get my ass up out of the 'working class'

You have to remember that under new tax legislation, im paying the same tax percentage as my mother and those teachers....

So am I lower middle class or upper working class or just neither?

Heh, im not middle class, im below the poverty line..

Ok, My mother:

]Nurse

Takes home after tax around about £900-1200 p/m dependant on how much overtime she woirks

Electricity/Gas/Water - £-100 - £-225 p/m dependant on cooking/washing/central heating

Food for her and my brother - £-200 p/m

Mortgage - £-350 p/m

That doesn't leave much for phone/mobile/internet/car - all luxuries.

Now a nurses salary before tax is about 20K (for my mums band anyways.)

A teacher earns maybe 3-4K more pre tax and they are considered working class. both are on the same tax band.

Since the article speaks of teachers as middle class then my mum is. I was brought up in a middle class home and i'm now stuck in McYD's trying to get by whilst waiting to go to university to get a degree in Broadcasting to try to get my ass up out of the 'working class'

You have to remember that under new tax legislation, im paying the same tax percentage as my mother and those teachers....

So am I lower middle class or upper working class or just neither?

A teacher earns a little more than you think. If you're working in McDonalds you're working class. A nurse is also working class.

Absolute, unquantified rubbish. Life for the middle classes in Europe is anything but pretty good.

Example: UK

Huge increase in reposessions. Huge increases in fuel duty and prices. Massive decrease in the lending market, marke increase in defaults in the lending sector, falling house prices (wouldn'rt be bad if people wernt having to pay more for day to day life)

My mother, a middle class person herself has already noted that my brother and I (22 and 23 respectively) have a greater chance of staying below the poverty line than she did when she was our age.

My rent has gone up nearly 33% in the past 3 years which, although still leaving it cheap at just over £240 a month, takes a huge dent out of my £600 p/m salary (after tax - thank you very much Gordon effing Brown). Luckily I don't run a car but after purchasing food for the month and paying for my gas/water and ewlectricity i'm already down to about £200 p/m for food, phone bill, internet bill and then other luxuries such as tobacco and alcohol.

Man that sux, I'm sorry.

A teacher earns a little more than you think. If you're working in McDonalds you're working class. A nurse is also working class.

A nurse is surely not working class in the US. If I am not mistaken the average RN or nurse salary in the US is about $25/hr. About 52k a year is average. However that is probably because of the US private medical system.

A nurse is surely not working class in the US. If I am not mistaken the average RN or nurse salary in the US is about $25/hr. About 52k a year is average. However that is probably because of the US private medical system.

And even then we have a serious nurse shortage. Socialized medicine would only make it worse if the salary of RNs dropped.

And even then we have a serious nurse shortage. Socialized medicine would only make it worse if the salary of RNs dropped.

We won't see fully socialized medicine for awhile. However a large part of the US population is already on a government run medical program such as Medicare and Medicaid.

Life in Europe is still pretty good for the middle class.
Oh well, that totally refutes everything the above article stated.....

Honestly...perhaps actually add to the thread instead of just wasting everyone's time....?
This is happening all accross Europe and I do believe is happening in the US, hastened over there by a food shortage.

A global recession is inevitable and instead of delaying it, our short sighted world Governments should be preparing for it.

I hate to admit it but, this is one article of soom that paints a pretty accurate picrure.
World governments?

Oh well, that totally refutes everything the above article stated.....

Honestly...perhaps actually add to the thread instead of just wasting everyone's time....?


Perhaps try and engage with ideas and you might open your mind a little. My comment was meant to try and put some perspective to this.

My comment was meant to try and put some perspective to this.
No, your comment was stupid and meaningless.

If someone makes a thread on the economic downturn/recession in America for discussion on it, and I reply with "life is still pretty good in America"....that hardly adds anything to the topic of the downturn and the national economy, does it now?

Same here...

No, your comment was stupid and meaningless.

If someone makes a thread on the economic downturn/recession in America for discussion on it, and I reply with "life is still pretty good in America"....that hardly adds anything to the topic of the downturn and the national economy, does it now?


The title isn't "Europe's middle class slighty less comfortable", it's "the fall of Europe's middle class". Pointing out the overreaction is neither stupid nor meaningless.

The title isn't "Europe's middle class slighty less comfortable", it's "the fall of Europe's middle class". Pointing out the overreaction is neither stupid nor meaningless.
It's much more than slightly less comfterable....the whole standard of living is falling, and people falling, financially along with it. Thus, fall.

The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, the middle class becomes poor.
Every once in a while the peasants need to rise up and kill off the aristocracy. Chaos, economical reset, then it starts all over.

Well for a nice refreshing change from the Islamic threat to European society, I thought we'd take a look at the fall of Europe's middle class, as reported so amazingly by the New York Times:



I think it's a very interesting article to that leaves all the dicussion about the decling American economy and focuses on Europe's sick economy. What do people here think?

Anyway, thoughts? Is this actually happening, in your opinion? If not, what is the reality of the situation? If so, what can be done to avoid and ease the situation?

Also, have you personally noticed this when you were either living in Europe (for Europeans), or travelling there (for non-Europeans)???
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/01/business/worldbusiness/01middle.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5070&en=340525f2c0e28543&ex=1210219200&emc=eta1

I don't know whether the UK is still considered to be 'Europe', given our tendency to use enormous barge poles to try and push our little island as far away from the continent as we physically can in an effort to latch onto America, but I can't say I've noticed this to a great extent. My family barely qualifies as 'middle class', and we've got three cars and our debts are gradually dissipating. Just bought me a new HDTV and an Xbox 360 a couple of weeks ago, in fact. Not bragging, seeing as my bragging rights are restricted by law and by overall crappiness, just pointing it out.

Admittedly it is harder to get by than it was a couple of years ago though. Petrol prices are a crunch, but I cycle to work most days anyway (keeps off the beer belly, beer being another significant expense). The cost of living is increasing at a slightly higher rate than wages. Interest rates on credit cards, loans and mortgages ain't what they used to be. And my insane neo-Nazi neighbour is playing his WW2 marching music louder than ever before on Sundays. But I hardly think we're all going to be plunged into poverty any time soon. Things'll pick up.

Well, that's what happens when you combine a moribund economy with inflation. Europe has unfortunately not seen the kind of growth in middle class disposable income that has enabled the United States to weather higher inflation somewhat more effectively.

In addition, the social services that enabled them to offset slower growth with lower expenditures on healthcare/education are also being threatened by weak economic performance in much of Europe, further crimping middle class incomes as they now have to deal with greater costs and the increased likelihood of a scaling back in social services. Thankfully, the ECB and other banks in Europe have made inflation targeting their #1 priority (as it should be), which may prove to be a wise move given the fairly high short-term inflation rate and the high possibility of a major drop in inflation in the intermediate term.

All in all, the situation looks to be volatile. Although it sounds like a tautology, things are either going to get better or worse depending on the two most likely growth paths.

Heh, im not middle class, im below the poverty line..

Ok, My mother:

]Nurse

Takes home after tax around about £900-1200 p/m dependant on how much overtime she woirks

Electricity/Gas/Water - £-100 - £-225 p/m dependant on cooking/washing/central heating

Food for her and my brother - £-200 p/m

Mortgage - £-350 p/m

That doesn't leave much for phone/mobile/internet/car - all luxuries.

Now a nurses salary before tax is about 20K (for my mums band anyways.)

A teacher earns maybe 3-4K more pre tax and they are considered working class. both are on the same tax band.

Since the article speaks of teachers as middle class then my mum is. I was brought up in a middle class home and i'm now stuck in McYD's trying to get by whilst waiting to go to university to get a degree in Broadcasting to try to get my ass up out of the 'working class'

You have to remember that under new tax legislation, im paying the same tax percentage as my mother and those teachers....

So am I lower middle class or upper working class or just neither?

I'm skeptical that you mum's take home pay is £900 on a salary of £20,000.

Just that's the take home pay of someone on a band 3 job in the NHS, and that pays significantly less than £20,000.

Either she has an aweful lot of deductions, or she is being taxed incorrectly. Or some other I suppose


(Incidentally I would see nursing, as a professional job, as middle class)

I have noticed that things are a little dicey at the moment in Britain, but that really has more to do with irresponsible mortgage bankers gambling everyone's money away, than it does with some sort of grand failure of Europe. Our economy is always warped by house prices, anyway.

That said, I'd much rather live in our slightly-more closeted European welfare state and risk "stagnation," than be on the other side of the Atlantic. Besides, it's typical of the New York Times to be smug about European problems.

I personally can't say I've noticed myself.
True, Ireland has been hit badly in the housing market now, what with buying all those unsecured loans of US banks, and being too closely linked to the UK financially. But other than this overblown moloch getting what it deserved, I can't notice any change for the worse. On the contrary. I keep being amazed at what I can actually afford with the job I've got.

Germany is a bit of a different story, but I would mostly place the blame for that on small and medium businesses. The worst biut of inflation there happened with the introduction of the Euro a few years back. The exchange rate was roughly 1 Euro for 2 DM, however businesses hoping to make a quick buck translated their prices 1 : 1 for the most part. In effect, that simply halved the average German's salary in one stroke. Combined with the already strained economy that was still trying to consolidate the debts and problems of former Eastern Germany, that was a pretty bad blow.

Yep, our Socialist governments are rotting us from the inside while the Evil Muslim Tsunami is rotting us from the outside. Or perhaps not.

First of all, Europe and Europeans aren't some monolithic entity with some sort of hive mind. Some European economies are far more liberal than others, with Eastern Europe, the UK and Ireland probably the most liberal and France probably at the bottom. I would say that none are socialist, but everybody either knows that already or is just into polemics and using it as a strawman.

Second of all, we've got problems. The French have problems. The Irish have problems. But we're not the only part of the world to have a poor economy. If the USA were booming, then you might have something to crow about, but the European middle (and working) classes aren't the only people to have to worry about reprsessions, inflation (with a large about of external causes) and a future recession. We survived the stagnation of the 1970s, and we'll survive this.

That's funny, cause I'm living on a student's wage (some 800 dollars a month) and I manage to live more than comfortably, with good food, the occasional vacation, no need for a car, a trip here and there, etc...

If I were to earn as much money as expected after my studies (roughly estimated at 8000 dollars a month) I wouldn't have any trouble at all. It may be slightly above average, but if my current earnings of 9600 dollars a year (which is six times less than the family interviewed) are making me live a fine and dandy life, I have a really hard time seeing how others can be having any trouble.

the E.U has been rather sluggish for a number of years now (though it has still blasted the mustaches off analysts predictions) however I think the working class is the only one to have noticed any change as in my hazy memory food has generally risen in cost whilst products beyond that have only fallen

don't have any commitments and you will be fine :cool:

things are either going to get better or worse depending on the two most likely growth paths.

what he said

On the contrary. I keep being amazed at what I can actually afford with the job I've got.

what she said

I have actually found that I have too much money at the end of the month as if life is telling me to start popping out kids :(

You will find that the stagnation in real wages in Germany is the reason unemployment has fallen quite dramatically over the last two or three years or so. Basically, given the difficulties of getting over absorbing the GDR, globalisation and so on, it was needed to restore a base from which to grow, an adjustment to new conditions.

Im a bad person. Because when I read this, my first thought was about all the Europians I knew who always would gloat about how America's economy was falling. I would often point out that a damaged American economy would hurt the world, and they all laughed at me and said I was deluded.

I read this now, think of them, and cackle.


Anyway, I have not personally seen or felt this, but it makes economic sense.

Oh please, allow us to at least maintain the affectations of superiority. The USA has denuded us of our political and economic hegemony and cultural influence, at leats permit our delusions of past grandeur to articulate themselves in condascending observations. It's all we've got left!!!!

In truth, and comedy aside, I agree with TAI, true to form. Europe is stagnating under the leadership, or leck thereof, of a European Union that, having graspingly acquired ever more political control over its members, now imposes a centre-left dystopian vision of post-colonial mediocrity upon all those subject to it.

now imposes a centre-left dystopian vision of post-colonial mediocrity upon all those subject to it.

You seem obsessed with mediocrity. Given that many people in the EU have excelled, have you paused to consider that maybe it's you who is mediocre?

Well for a nice refreshing change from the Islamic threat to European society, I thought we'd take a look at the fall of Europe's middle class, as reported so amazingly by the New York Times:



I think it's a very interesting article to that leaves all the dicussion about the decling American economy and focuses on Europe's sick economy. What do people here think?

Anyway, thoughts? Is this actually happening, in your opinion? If not, what is the reality of the situation? If so, what can be done to avoid and ease the situation?

Also, have you personally noticed this when you were either living in Europe (for Europeans), or travelling there (for non-Europeans)???
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/01/business/worldbusiness/01middle.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5070&en=340525f2c0e28543&ex=1210219200&emc=eta1



The article does have the stench of "Well folks, if you think it's bad here, take a look at those Euro-Commie baskets over there!" about it.


Akin to someone pointing in a random direction to distract you whilst saying "American economy....? Oh look, over there! A cheese eating surrendering monkey!"

I wanna hear some Europeanoids dismiss this article and defend their socialist work laws.



Socialist work laws? May I have some of what you're smoking?

In truth, and comedy aside, I agree with TAI, true to form. Europe is stagnating under the leadership, or leck thereof, of a European Union that, having graspingly acquired ever more political control over its members, now imposes a centre-left dystopian vision of post-colonial mediocrity upon all those subject to it.
Which is quite remarkable, considering eurosceptic and fiscal liberal parties have a voting majority in the European Parliament, the EU Council and the European Commission.

That's funny, cause I'm living on a student's wage (some 800 dollars a month) and I manage to live more than comfortably, with good food, the occasional vacation, no need for a car, a trip here and there, etc...

If I were to earn as much money as expected after my studies (roughly estimated at 8000 dollars a month) I wouldn't have any trouble at all. It may be slightly above average, but if my current earnings of 9600 dollars a year (which is six times less than the family interviewed) are making me live a fine and dandy life, I have a really hard time seeing how others can be having any trouble.

In general, stuff costs more in Europe. I make about $800 a month too working part time and I have no problems either.

When I was in the UK, a friend of mine from the US was shocked at how people would leave the meeting at 4.45 sharp to get ready to leave at 5 PM sharp. I mean we will be discussing "blah blah blah issue needs to be resolved..we got to meet deadlines" and the UK folks would say that he will get to it tomorrow and just plain leave.



Simple explanation: It beats the rush hour. Especially if you are in London.

With the railways what they are and *hushed tone* the M25.


Except that's the theory, but it goes to pot because everybody else thinks the same, and make the rush hour about a quarter hour early.

Result: Traffic jams, trains full (especially on the Tube) because there is not enough carriages.


And of course, some people fancy a pint before going home.


Also, nobody is going to stop you from going at 4:45pm. Especially if the boss is not about, and your workmates do the same.

A nurse is surely not working class in the US. If I am not mistaken the average RN or nurse salary in the US is about $25/hr. About 52k a year is average. However that is probably because of the US private medical system.

its even $25/hour in this small town in the middle of nowhere.

my sister makes over $30/hour as a hospital RN without a degree. $80k/year with overtime.

i highly recommend nursing as a career for anyone who wants flexible hours, good pay and who can deal with sick people.

The article does have the stench of "Well folks, if you think it's bad here, take a look at those Euro-Commie baskets over there!" about it.


Akin to someone pointing in a random direction to distract you whilst saying "American economy....? Oh look, over there! A cheese eating surrendering monkey!"
I find that it's just a change from all the things about the American economy saying, ok, let's see how the rest of the world is doing since we've simply been concentrating on America....

I think it's a very interesting article to that leaves all the dicussion about the decling American economy and focuses on Europe's sick economy. What do people here think?
Fair doos.
Anyway, thoughts? Is this actually happening, in your opinion? If not, what is the reality of the situation?
Things are pretty shit around the world right now with inflation caused by imports of food. Not entirely surprising that Europe also gets a bit of a caining in this regard (apart from the UK, where we had a bumper crop of wheat, so I'm sure we'll now have a ton of very rich farmers kicking about).

Oh and as to Italy, I would say that burning down Napoli and going after criminals in Albania would go a long way to solving its problems. Also electing someone more like Mussolini who would do away with the ridiculous elections situation in Italy would be nice, as would more children.
If so, what can be done to avoid and ease the situation?
Very little, and I'm sure that we'll see a whole bunch of fucked off and starving farmers in the third world this time next year as they overrapidly switch to wheat as a cash crop, which will a) cause a glut and hence yet more undercutting by European farmers due to the CAP and b) cause soils to be Kinda Ruined.

In general, stuff costs more in Europe. I make about $800 a month too working part time and I have no problems either.

I live in Europe. In one of the more expensive cities too.

I know what stuff costs. If people aren't smart enough to look around for cheap stuff...

I wanna hear some Europeanoids dismiss this article and defend their socialist work laws.
Europeanoids? Nice.

Anyway, the work laws here vary from country to country, so having a broad 'what is Europe like' kind of idea is pretty stupid. For example, Germany doesn't yet have a minimum wage (which is probably pushing down demand of consumer goods and hence keeping even more people out of work, but feh, if that's what they're into), whereas France has ridiculously high overtime pay requirements over the 37.5 hours maximum per week without extra pay. Something Sarkozy has not actually tackled yet.

I live in Europe. In one of the more expensive cities too.

I know what stuff costs. If people aren't smart enough to look around for cheap stuff...

Just wait, Walmart is coming to Europe in a big way. If you don't know who they are then you will soon find out. Beware of the big box. However they do really cheap Chinese goods.

Just wait, Walmart is coming to Europe in a big way. If you don't know who they are then you will soon find out. Beware of the big box. However they do really cheap Chinese goods.

I have a certain taste for quality that Walmart would never be able to provide ^^ Wegmans, however, would be more than welcome.

Somebody near the beginning of the thread mentioned that if you have the capacity, traveling around should be a given. I fully agree with this.

Just wait, Walmart is coming to Europe in a big way. If you don't know who they are then you will soon find out. Beware of the big box. However they do really cheap Chinese goods.
We have Aldi already. Wal-mart will also collapse on its arse here because we don't buy GM in Europe. Because it's pish.

Fair doos.

Oh and as to Italy, I would say that burning down Napoli and going after criminals in Albania would go a long way to solving its problems. Also electing someone more like Mussolini who would do away with the ridiculous elections situation in Italy would be nice, as would more children.

.

First order of business is to get the trains to run on time. Second order of business Invade North Africa!.

First order of business is to get the trains to run on time. Second order of business Invade North Africa!.
Bugger invading Africa, that's what ruined his regime. And actually, the first order of business is to sort out the utter débâcle that is Napoli, and then to get the Italian people having lots more children, because the country is going to die on its knees in 25 years otherwise.

We have Aldi already. Wal-mart will also collapse on its arse here because we don't buy GM in Europe. Because it's pish.

Ahh but you don't know the power of Walmart. You will soon be bowing at the smiling yellow face. Who says Walmart would sell something the Europeans don't want? You think they are just going to ignore the regional differences?

1) Ok, so America is about to enter depression, falling housing market, lower consumer demand etc. which will affect demand for European good wich will affect production in Europe to a certain extent and thus incurr a slowing of economies in Europe on the one side.

2) There is a rise in global food demand un-matched by growth in supply.

3) Same goes for oil.

4) Food and oil makes the world go round. Food directly affects people, while oil, through the rising costs of energy production and transportation affects costs of production.

5) This leads to both smaller purchasing power in individuals and smaller profits (and consequently investment) by companies.

Conclusion: Shit is fucked up.

What I'm missing is where this has anything to do with labour laws in Europe, and how are the Middle Classes about to fall into poverty before the working classes.

Yes, everybody is poorer, and no this has nothing to to do with the Middle Classes, Europe or Socialism.

/thread.

Ahh but you don't know the power of Walmart. You will soon be bowing at the smiling yellow face.
Nah, we have utterly crap shops already available all over Europe.
Who says Walmart would sell something the Europeans don't want? You think they are just going to ignore the regional differences?
I think that the regional differences are just too huge to get around. See the way that UK supermarkets have had a hell of a time trying to break the US market.

Incidentally, Tesco is actually really good, so if you Yanks have one in your area, try it out. Their own-brand goods are as decent as anything else you'll be able to get for the same price, something you guys are supposedly quite skeptical about (although this is just reported information, no idea if that's what you chaps and chapettes actually think of own-brand goods in general).

I find that it's just a change from all the things about the American economy saying, ok, let's see how the rest of the world is doing since we've simply been concentrating on America....


Could be, and you would be fair to call me cynical or realistic. Perhaps I'm someone who has seen too much spin and smokey mirrors.

Ahh but you don't know the power of Walmart. You will soon be bowing at the smiling yellow face. Who says Walmart would sell something the Europeans don't want? You think they are just going to ignore the regional differences?


Walmart is already trying to make inroads into Europe, it owns Asda if I remember right.


But you do not realise or know the power of Tesco. You want it, it shall have everything, and it shall conquer the world.

It's army of supermarkets and superdupermarkets will march to the sound of customer announcements, and will crush all before it in an impressive and ruthless blitzkrieg.


The UK has fallen with only pockets of resistance, so too has China and more still.


Continents shall not stop them, nor the rebel scum, or the corruptable local and national governments.


You shall soon bow down before the red lettering and the short blue lines underneath. You will bow down before the Tesco crown.

Cerean;13661296']The rich get richer, the poor get poorer, the middle class becomes poor.
Every once in a while the peasants need to rise up and kill off the aristocracy. Chaos, economical reset, then it starts all over.
...

Aye, or we'll just have a depression where things get levelled out a bit overall. Ten years of economic boom from 1997-2007 has made the rich richer because that's what happens in booms. The middle class' savings have been devalued, as per usual, and the working class have largely frittered their money away, as happens in such times.

Obviously, that's a generalisation, but that's what happens in good times economically.

You shall soon bow down before the red lettering and the short blue lines underneath. You will bow down before the Tesco crown.
Actually, it's not doing that well in the States at the moment, IIRC. Largely because most people don't really know what its USP is. It doesn't sell sacks of sugar, and it sells fairly high-quality goods meant for the lower-middle classes, and does a decent job of that here in the UK. In the US, that market isn't all that big.

Actually, it's not doing that well in the States at the moment, IIRC. Largely because most people don't really know what its USP is. It doesn't sell sacks of sugar, and it sells fairly high-quality goods meant for the lower-middle classes, and does a decent job of that here in the UK. In the US, that market isn't all that big.


America may just be Tesco's own Operation Barbarossa then? It's own Eastern Front?

America may just be Tesco's own Operation Barbarossa then? It's own Eastern Front?
Not really. More like one of the really waste-of-time anti-partisan operations in Yugoslavia, which didn't really do anything but waste time and money.

Which is quite remarkable, considering eurosceptic and fiscal liberal parties have a voting majority in the European Parliament, the EU Council and the European Commission.

And still the British parliament has surrendered considerable powers since 1990.

Walmart is already trying to make inroads into Europe, it owns Asda if I remember right.


But you do not realise or know the power of Tesco. You want it, it shall have everything, and it shall conquer the world.

It's army of supermarkets and superdupermarkets will march to the sound of customer announcements, and will crush all before it in an impressive and ruthless blitzkrieg.


The UK has fallen with only pockets of resistance, so too has China and more still.


Continents shall not stop them, nor the rebel scum, or the corruptable local and national governments.


You shall soon bow down before the red lettering and the short blue lines underneath. You will bow down before the Tesco crown.

I use to live in the UK and did go to Tesco now and then. However this could be a fight between two superpowers. Should be interesting to see what happens. Will have you know that Walmart is well known for their ruthlessness against it's own suppliers and other chains.

Edit: To give you an example of how dispised they can be there are literally hundreds of cities that will not allow Walmart within their borders. These are not just small cities but some medium sized cities of 250k.

Also electing someone more like Mussolini

"I do not intend to defend capitalism or capitalists. They, like everything human, have their defects. I only say their possibilities of usefulness are not ended. Capitalism has borne the monstrous burden of the war and today still has the strength to shoulder the burdens of peace…. It is not simply and solely an accumulation of wealth, it is an elaboration, a selection, a coordination of values which is the work of centuries…. Many think, and I myself am one of them, that capitalism is scarcely at the beginning of its story."
;)

I use to live in the UK and did go to Tesco now and then. However this could be a fight between two superpowers. Should be interesting to see what happens. Will have you know that Walmart is well known for their ruthlessness against it's own suppliers and other chains.
Which is exactly like Tesco aren't. So there we go.

I use to live in the UK and did go to Tesco now and then. However this could be a fight between two superpowers. Should be interesting to see what happens. Will have you know that Walmart is well known for their ruthlessness against it's own suppliers and other chains.

IIRC Walmart already got its arse handed to it in Germany and it was such a glorious defeat that it has only dared return under the banner of Asda :p

Tesco however has laid cities to waste throughout Europe by building super-mega-transforming-robot-markets on the outskirts and sucking the town centers dry!

SNIP

lets say hypothetically that you was offered the E.U presidency

"I do not intend to defend capitalism or capitalists. They, like everything human, have their defects. I only say their possibilities of usefulness are not ended. Capitalism has borne the monstrous burden of the war and today still has the strength to shoulder the burdens of peace…. It is not simply and solely an accumulation of wealth, it is an elaboration, a selection, a coordination of values which is the work of centuries…. Many think, and I myself am one of them, that capitalism is scarcely at the beginning of its story."
Quite. He was also a pretty alright socialist, giving a system of benefits people could life off if they couldn't find any work at all in a bunch of laws laid down from 1928 to 1930 (although with job creation schemes all over the place, and a lack of official unemployment, it's debatable how much this affected most Italians).

Quite. He was also a pretty alright socialist, giving a system of benefits people could life off if they couldn't find any work at all in a bunch of laws laid down from 1928 to 1930 (although with job creation schemes all over the place, and a lack of official unemployment, it's debatable how much this affected most Italians).
Meh...as much as I like that quote, Mussolini totally flip flopped when building his fascist state, unless he meant by that quote he meant "state capitalism", as conducted by fascist Italy....in which case, meh.:p

Meh...as much as I like that quote, Mussolini totally flip flopped when building his fascist state, unless he meant by that quote he meant "state capitalism", as conducted by fascist Italy....in which case, meh.:p
Eeh, I'd really argue whether there ever was a real "fascist state" as he envisioned it. It was more just a regular, if undemocratic, European state with fairly competent leadership (until 1936, when he started to chum up with Hitler and things went downhill very quickly), and a few guys about looking tough and occasionally punching some communists.

All that the 'Middle Way' ever really meant was that wages were brought into line for all of the sectors of work. Autarchia was staggeringly foolish in Italy (even more so than in Germany), and I can't believe that he even considered it. *sighs*

Fascist Italy was never particularly totalitarian, mainly because I think that Mussolini was smart enough to realise that people aren't into it continual oppression in the style of Nazi Germany all that much. I admire pre-1936 Mussolini, but I would still disagree with most of the people around him, largely because they were mainly either very stupid or simply xenophobic.

With reference to teh OP (and not fascist/non-fascist Italian states...)


I'm a European... or possibly an ex-European. I quit Europe. Not because I was falling from the Middle Class, but because I couldn't get in it.

Big problem wasn't general inflation, it was house price inflation. I read somewhere that, despite the recent fall in the housing market, the price of houses went up by something ridiculous like 170% over 15 years. I was condemned to rent for ever if I'd have stayed at home.

That, and taxes. Taxes in the UK come to 40% to 44% of GDP. I had tonnes of debt from student days, the banks were raping me good and proper at every opportunity via bank charges (happily, the consumers are now sticking it back to them in return). And I just couldn't get ahead.

Stuck between the govt, the banks and the estate agents, I was just working working working to make money for other people.

At least now, in Arabia, I'm finally catching up. There's a lot of things here that I really do not like, but at least I'm starting to climb out of a big black pit.

Bright Capitalism:

What country do you mean exactly? Saudi Arabia?

And still the British parliament has surrendered considerable powers since 1990.
Which has not done anything the British government or Parliament would not have done anyway. Most fiscally conservative political parties are fairly pro-European.

Well, I'm a little confused.

I am French.
My family earn just a little more than 40 000 euro a year.
We have still three cars and one camping car, all the modern hi tech stuff and my parents are paying a studio for each their two sons.

They leave for a full month in Corse this summer.

So I don't think it's SO bad...

On my opinion this article is really too much alarmist.
But we also don't live in Paris, so we have something like 20% less money lost into logement.

And hell yeah I defend social and healthcare programs !

We have the money to send thousand of troops to Afghanistan, we could so still pay up the same sum for our OWN people...

I am French.
My family earn just a little more than 40 000 euro a year.
We have still three cars and one camping car, all the modern hi tech stuff and my parents are paying a studio for each their two sons.

how? do they deal coke on the side or something?

Bright Capitalism:

What country do you mean exactly? Saudi Arabia?

Many people call it Arabia because they despise the Saudi royal family. Sounds like this chap is working for good money there.

how? do they deal coke on the side or something?

Coke doesn't make the money like it use to. Meth however has low overhead and high profit margin.

Coke doesn't make the money like it use to. Meth however has low overhead and high profit margin.

is meth popular in europe?

is meth popular in europe?

Getting more so, as I understand it.

We already have had hysterical reports about it. The actual drug cannot be far behind.

Getting more so, as I understand it.

We already have had hysterical reports about it. The actual drug cannot be far behind.

lol. its like an advertising campaign eh?

lol. its like an advertising campaign eh?

Ha. I've never thought of it that way :)

Coke doesn't make the money like it use to. Meth however has low overhead and high profit margin.

plus its all the more addictive :)

is meth popular in europe?

you would be better off buying poppers in the UK and taking them to sell in more conservative nations

what are "poppers"?

I personally can't say I've noticed myself.
True, Ireland has been hit badly in the housing market now, what with buying all those unsecured loans of US banks, and being too closely linked to the UK financially. But other than this overblown moloch getting what it deserved, I can't notice any change for the worse. On the contrary. I keep being amazed at what I can actually afford with the job I've got.

Germany is a bit of a different story, but I would mostly place the blame for that on small and medium businesses. The worst biut of inflation there happened with the introduction of the Euro a few years back. The exchange rate was roughly 1 Euro for 2 DM, however businesses hoping to make a quick buck translated their prices 1 : 1 for the most part. In effect, that simply halved the average German's salary in one stroke. Combined with the already strained economy that was still trying to consolidate the debts and problems of former Eastern Germany, that was a pretty bad blow.

Yep, our Socialist governments are rotting us from the inside while the Evil Muslim Tsunami is rotting us from the outside. Or perhaps not.

First of all, Europe and Europeans aren't some monolithic entity with some sort of hive mind. Some European economies are far more liberal than others, with Eastern Europe, the UK and Ireland probably the most liberal and France probably at the bottom. I would say that none are socialist, but everybody either knows that already or is just into polemics and using it as a strawman.

Second of all, we've got problems. The French have problems. The Irish have problems. But we're not the only part of the world to have a poor economy. If the USA were booming, then you might have something to crow about, but the European middle (and working) classes aren't the only people to have to worry about reprsessions, inflation (with a large about of external causes) and a future recession. We survived the stagnation of the 1970s, and we'll survive this.

Both these posts are worth the extra reading-time.

is meth popular in europe?
Not yet. Probably won't be, either, seeing as Ecstacy is still selling well to the club-going young people of Europe, and will for the next, ooh, ages.

Not yet. Probably won't be, either, seeing as Ecstacy is still selling well to the club-going young people of Europe, and will for the next, ooh, ages.

meth is a different drug meant for a different crowd. more for older people who want to get a shot gun and be paranoid about aliens

meth is a different drug meant for a different crowd. more for older people who want to get a shot gun and be paranoid about aliens
And for this they have heroin or coke. So there's no real need for it. Keep in mind that Europe generally lacks in the kind of utter destitution which US citizens seem occasionally to be afflicted by.

And for this they have heroin or coke. So there's no real need for it. Keep in mind that Europe generally lacks in the kind of utter destitution which US citizens seem occasionally to be afflicted by.

i dont know what the draw of meth is.

but for some people the "do it yourself" thing is more important than any quality of high it might give you. its a drug entrepreneur thing. surely such people exist in europe too.

And for this they have heroin or coke. So there's no real need for it. Keep in mind that Europe generally lacks in the kind of utter destitution which US citizens seem occasionally to be afflicted by.

Coke and heroin are different drugs too. Coke (unless in crack form is a club drug), wears off very quickly. Meth is the stay up and work for 4 days straight type of drug with out having to use 50,000 dollars worth of it.

is meth popular in europe?

Well the good old Nazi's used it. I would be surprised if it wasn't already there.

I would really like to know why there seems to be this compulsion in people to cry about apocalyptic portents of doom. The economy has softened, but you are grossly deluded if you think you are in, or about to be in, an economic depression.

Standards of living have continued to get better for all classes of people in any industrial nation. While you may point out anecdotal evidence of someone who was foolish enough to run up massive credit card debt and lie about their income to get a mortgage they had no hope of affording, this in no way means a collapse of the economic system. Most people are much better off than they were a decade ago.

I especially laughed at the point in the article where a couple was complaining that they had less disposable income since their child was born. How it comes as a complete shock that a child might actually cost money to raise is beyond my understanding.

If you were foolish with your expenditures, and leveraged yourself to the hilt, you will suffer some financial hardship when your bills come due. That is not a collapsing economy, that is foolish spending.

Food costs are rising around the world (due largely to government meddling), if you are worried about not being able to afford food, tell your politicians to stop imposing trade barriers, and stop subsidizing inefficiently turning food into fuel, which keeps food costs artificially high.

The biggest problem with people feeling like their wealth has not grown is due to an rapidly increasing tax burden in most 'developed' nations. The total tax burden on the average family has risen much faster than the economy has been growing as a whole - and that is where your money has been going. During the years of high growth, governments have also pandered to idiotic electorates and swelled their budgets as much as they could get away with, and are now facing unprecedented shortfalls. Massive spending, and leveraging every penny into more borrowing, is bad financial planning. That is why people feel poorer and that is why governments are facing massive deficits (and will thus have to raise taxes even more, shrinking the take home pay of people even further).

If you were even halfway cautious with your money, you would not have any problem. The US has not even seen a single quarter of negative growth, much less gone into recession yet, but the way people talk it seems like the 1930s were bountiful in comparison. This kind of hyperbole is a ludicrous attempt at sensationalism (because sensational news sells) and I'm afraid is turning into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Consumer confidence is down because people are constantly being told by the media, and by politicians trying to get attention and sleaze their way into votes, that the economy is about to implode. The actual data does not support the doom and gloom. Stop being lemmings.

edit: I would like to point out that there is an ever growing list of countries simplifying their tax structures by switching to a low flat tax, and their economies are still growing very robustly.

Well for a nice refreshing change from the Islamic threat to European society, I thought we'd take a look at the fall of Europe's middle class, as reported so amazingly by the New York Times:Would have been far nicer and more refreshing if you had avoided typing that.
I think it's a very interesting article to that leaves all the dicussion about the decling American economy and focuses on Europe's sick economy. What do people here think?

Anyway, thoughts? Is this actually happening, in your opinion? If not, what is the reality of the situation? If so, what can be done to avoid and ease the situation?

Also, have you personally noticed this when you were either living in Europe (for Europeans), or travelling there (for non-Europeans)???
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/01/business/worldbusiness/01middle.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5070&en=340525f2c0e28543&ex=1210219200&emc=eta1In Germany's case, at least, it's primarily influenced by the liberal market reforms. The pro-market reforms aimed at easing the burden on companies have shifted it to the wage-earning middle-class.

@OP: It's true, we are getting poorer, and yes, the oil price is one of the bigger reasons (that and the credit issue).

I can feel it myself now too, food for a weekend costs me 10 euros now, while last year it would've costed me only like 7 or 8.

Luckily the beer prices in my local student bar are still the same, so I'm still happy though :p

edit: I would like to point out that there is an ever growing list of countries simplifying their tax structures by switching to a low flat tax, and their economies are still growing very robustly.

is that a flat income tax? where can i find this ever growing list?

Luckily the beer prices in my local student bar are still the same, so I'm still happy though :p
The Dutch economy can tank, the Euro can suffer massive inflation and the price of oil and food can rise through the roof, yet the Dutch remain peaceful.....though God only knows what fury of hell shall be unleashed upon the world if the price of beer in Holland fluctuates!

is that a flat income tax? where can i find this ever growing list?
Eastern Europe, primarily. The world hasn't ended there, which is nice, but it also doesn't finance a welfare state. So don't expect it to have a realistic chance in "Old Europe".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_tax#Countries_that_have_flat_tax_systems
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_39/b3952079.htm

And if anyone speaks German, this is very topical:
http://www.handelsblatt.com/News/Konjunktur-%d6konomie/Konjunktur/_pv/_p/200053/_t/ft/_b/1425513/default.aspx/mittelschicht-schrumpft-immer-staerker.html

(Yeah, I stopped quoting Spiegel's German site as much - their leftiness has gotten really noticable these days, and quite often the stuff they say is actually incorrect. Handelsblatt and FTD (http://www.ftd.de/wirtschaftswunder/summary.php) are probably the better options on economic (and indeed political) matters.)

how? do they deal coke on the side or something?

Well, at least I'm not informed of this :D

Now that I had some time to look upon it I advance some explanations.

The fact is that we are living in Alsace, wich is a peticular region, politically marked as " conservatisve right wing" on one hand, but with the most advanced healthcare in France ( Alsace-Moselle have a number of regional laws dating back to Napoleon AND Second Reich, who are no more existing in France and Germany ), this healthcare is even more important than the standard Social Security in France, but is still on a positiv budget...always remind me when someone told me that a healthcare system is too expensive.

We also tried to never been in debt, the only thing my parents bought with bank money was their house, never borrow money for anything is a very good way to have a good living.

This region is also the home of the most of " autogestion " factories and agricol associations, so you can have organic food of good quality without being permanently screwed by the great hypermarket distributors.

Third, we have the ability to buy in Germany, where the taxes are lower than in France, on the computers, mobilier and cars.

My wife live in Paris, and, althought she is not in the streets, she can't afford such expenses, of course. But Paris, like London, have exploded their house market, now the bail for a 35 m² flat could go up at something like a thousand euros...twice more than the price in the rest of the country.

Well for a nice refreshing change from the Islamic threat to European society, I thought we'd take a look at the fall of Europe's middle class, as reported so amazingly by the New York Times

This has already happened in the US, iirc.

Well, since the GNP of the EU is on the rise, this proves that:

1.More GNP doesn't mean less poverty or more generalised well-being.
2.Deregulated, unrestricted capitalism increases the income divide.

I knew it...I've always been uncomfortable around maple syrup.

Haha! I'm ready! I already have maple syrup in my kitchen!

This still doesn't look as rough as what's in store for the Americans a few years down the road...

This still doesn't look as rough as what's in store for the Americans a few years down the road...

Couple of rules to live by.

1) Tomorrow is never set in stone.

2) Don't underestimate the resiliency of the American people.

Well for a nice refreshing change from the Islamic threat to European society,

Unless this is a Muslim plot :O better start a pogrom just in case.

This still doesn't look as rough as what's in store for the Americans a few years down the road...

Obama?