NationStates Jolt Archive

News that make you go "WTF?!".

(May 1) - Nobel Peace Prize winner and international symbol of freedom Nelson Mandela is flagged on U.S. terrorist watch lists and needs special permission to visit the USA. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice calls the situation "embarrassing," and some members of Congress vow to fix it.

The requirement applies to former South African leader Mandela and other members of South Africa's governing African National Congress (ANC), the once-banned anti-Apartheid organization. In the 1970s and '80s, the ANC was officially designated a terrorist group by the country's ruling white minority. Other countries, including the United States, followed suit.

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/mandela-is-on-us-terrorist-watch-lists/20080501090309990001

This makes you wonder what's truly going on in the minds of Americans, but specially their government.

I've argued before that Mandela was a terrorist (and a communist, but that's beside the point). Look at the ANC's tactics under apartheid.

This point was once also made in the Canadian parliament by a sitting member (who has been re-elected twice since).

Niiiiiiccce.

Seriously though, they probably just put it in the system when it was an issue back then in the 70s and then simply forgot to remove it afterwards. Sort of like the Catholic Church apologizing to Galileo in the 90s.

Actually, this is quite UNsurprising; Mandela WAS a terrorist, after all.

He had close ties to the "Armed Wing" of the ANC; He is on record as saying that violence against the state of South Africa was justified, and supporting it; and his organization, the African National Congress, was on a lot of lists of Terrorist Organizations, worldwide.

The fact that he later won his war, and primarily through peaceful means, does not change those facts.

the terrorist list is crap and needs to be completely redone. or scrapped.

this is just one example of how stupid it is.

the ANC was a terrorist organization.
Nelson Mandela's wife had a 14 year old African kid shot execution style because he might have been giving away ANC secrets to the whites. It is why South Africa has it as policy that everyone get this stuff out in the open and apologize but no legal action taken against either side (For both whites and blacks).
So the addition of nelson Mandela in the 70's is no surprise and it is something that is hard to remove.

Actually, this is quite UNsurprising; Mandela WAS a terrorist, after all.

He had close ties to the "Armed Wing" of the ANC; He is on record as saying that violence against the state of South Africa was justified, and supporting it; and his organization, the African National Congress, was on a lot of lists of Terrorist Organizations, worldwide.

The fact that he later won his war, and primarily through peaceful means, does not change those facts.

You said it yourself. He WAS a terrorist. (emphasis being on the past tense) He isn't one anymore and therefore shouldn't be flagged on a list.

You said it yourself. He WAS a terrorist. (emphasis being on the past tense) He isn't one anymore and therefore shouldn't be flagged on a list.

Sure, action should be taken to remove him from the list. But it isn't until somebody notices these things that such actions can be taken; now that it has, the list wll probably be revised in short order.

You said it yourself. He WAS a terrorist. (emphasis being on the past tense) He isn't one anymore and therefore shouldn't be flagged on a list.

This was likely just an oversight. I doubt that there's any deeper meaning. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

Yet Mandela has never been grounded once on U.S. soil during his presidential visits.

They're only terrorists if they're not part of your Monkeysphere.

the terrorist list is crap and needs to be completely redone. or scrapped.

this is just one example of how stupid it is.
Then again, they have Teddy Kennedy on it. Personally, I wouldn't want to fly in the same sky as Teddy -- I'm afraid that bloated old fool will explode one of these days. If he does it in the air, it will just inconvenience everyone.

News that make you go "WTF?!".



http://news.aol.com/story/_a/mandela-is-on-us-terrorist-watch-lists/20080501090309990001

This makes you wonder what's truly going on in the minds of Americans, but specially their government.
No, I can totally believe this... Now, Americans are probably not as keenly aware of this as others in the world, but basically, our government calls liberators terrorists and then commits terrorism in the name of liberation.

This is just an "embarrassing" remnant of past evil.

EDIT: Seriously, don't call armed struggle terrorism. And if it was terrorism (which is an extremely self-serving category) is was probably justified.

Sure, action should be taken to remove him from the list. But it isn't until somebody notices these things that such actions can be taken; now that it has, the list wll probably be revised in short order.

I hope the US government does revised it's terrorist list. This doesn't help the world's opinion (not that Americans care much;)) on America too much.

This was likely just an oversight. I doubt that there's any deeper meaning. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I hope it is just that, an oversight.:)

No, I can totally believe this... Now, Americans are probably not as keenly aware of this as others in the world, but basically, our government calls liberators terrorists and then commits terrorism in the name of liberation.

This is just an "embarrassing" remnant of past evil.

It's never the citizens the ones who are to blame for what their government does. But yes, the US government commits atrocities in the name of freedom, atrocities that are just as bad as terrorism.

I do wish most Americans open their eyes on this and stop the cycle.

News that make you go "WTF?!".



http://news.aol.com/story/_a/mandela-is-on-us-terrorist-watch-lists/20080501090309990001

This makes you wonder what's truly going on in the minds of Americans, but specially their government.

As a member of the United States House of Representatives in 1986, Dick Cheney had voted against a congressional resolution calling for Mandela's release from prison. In 2002, Mandela called Cheney a "dinosaur."[41]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_mandela

For further infotainment, read the list of US vetoes here...see what pops up.....
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2000.htm

Start at 1978....

Pfft. His mistake was not changing his name to Gerry Adams.

Then again, they have Teddy Kennedy on it. Personally, I wouldn't want to fly in the same sky as Teddy -- I'm afraid that bloated old fool will explode one of these days. If he does it in the air, it will just inconvenience everyone.

tsk tsk

the worse thing is that there are air marshals on the "do not fly" list. every now and then an airline notices and refuses to let the air marshal on the plane.

It's never the citizens the ones who are to blame for what their government does. But yes, the US government commits attrocities in the name of freedom, atrocities that are just as bad as terrorism.

Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. I was talking about our government, not our citizens.


I do wish most Americans open their eyes on this and stop the cycle.

Me too.

And some do. I try to open other people's eyes, but they often resist, telling me I'm being "too negative." Basically, people are extremely wedded to the idea that the government is benevolent. And we have people who try to point out that the US is not benevolent. Noam Chomsky is a good example. And he's widely hated for it. (But also widely liked by people like me.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_mandela

For further infotainment, read the list of US vetoes here...see what pops up.....
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2000.htm

Start at 1978....

Well, Dick Cheney IS a dinosaur.:D

Much thanks for the link. I can't stop laughing and people at the office are looking at me like I'm a mental patient.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_mandela

For further infotainment, read the list of US vetoes here...see what pops up.....
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2000.htm

Start at 1978....

he did commit an act of sabotage that killed several people.
also the bit about trying to get/help another country(s) invade South Africa.

Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. I was talking about our government, not our citizens.

I understood your meaning. No worries there.


Me too.
And some do. I try to open other people's eyes, but they often resist, telling me I'm being "too negative." Basically, people are extremely wedded to the idea that the government is benevolent. And we have people who try to point out that the US is not benevolent. Noam Chomsky is a good example. And he's widely hated for it. (But also widely liked by people like me.)

Yes, I noticed that too while I lived in the US.

My ex mother in law had the audacity to tell me that she was "glad George W. Bush had declared war in Iraq because it was good for the economy". I lived there for 2 years after the war declaration and the economy went from bad to worse. I never saw any improvments.

So to me, she was full of crap thinking that her government was doing this to improve the life of Americans.

Well, Dick Cheney IS a dinosaur.:D

Much thanks for the link. I can't stop laughing and people at the office are looking at me like I'm a mental patient.

Well its either laugh or cry when you see the reality of it. Better to laugh, I reckon.

My ex mother in law had the audacity to tell me that she was "glad George W. Bush had declared war in Iraq because it was good for the economy". I lived there for 2 years after the war declaration and the economy went from bad to worse. I never saw any improvments.

Even if the war had vastly improved the economy, it should still be opposed.


So to me, she was full of crap thinking that her government was doing this to improve the life of Americans.

Ya. The point of this war is to make some people richer at the expense of the lives of many. That's the way it has worked historically and will continue to work until people start being honest about it. (By the way, whether we get oil money or not is quite beside the point; war is profitable merely because it subsidizes the defense industry.)

Sure, action should be taken to remove him from the list. But it isn't until somebody notices these things that such actions can be taken; now that it has, the list wll probably be revised in short order.
This was likely just an oversight. I doubt that there's any deeper meaning. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
It's been common knowledge for quite some time: Mr. Mandela has been issued special vouchers each time he's gone to the US before. So no, it's not an oversight, nor is it something that has gone unnoticed. The government has chosen to keep him on the list for a loooong time now.

Maybe they'll change it - it's about God damned time - but I'm not holding my breath. The US government isn't very good at the reasonable approach...

the terrorist list is crap and needs to be completely redone. or scrapped.

this is just one example of how stupid it is.

I concur.
Let's scrap the list, and make a nice shiny new one to fret over. It'l help those people who feel the need for paranoia to justify their jobs.

It's been common knowledge for quite some time: Mr. Mandela has been issued special vouchers each time he's gone to the US before. So no, it's not an oversight, nor is it something that has gone unnoticed. The government has chosen to keep him on the list for a loooong time now.

Maybe they'll change it - it's about God damned time - but I'm not holding my breath. The US government isn't very good at the reasonable approach...

proof ??? you have Mr. Mandela's passport perhaps ?
I would have figured this would have been made and issue every time he has visited the US.
Also even if true were the ones issuing the special Visas in a position to fix the problem?

proof ??? you have Mr. Mandela's passport perhaps ?
I would have figured this would have been made and issue every time he has visited the US.
Also even if true were the ones issuing the special Visas in a position to fix the problem?

Proof of what? What the article claimed?

They were placed on the list in the 1970s and '80s - and Nelson Mandela has never been denied entry to the US since his release. Not back in october '94, for example. Do you think the list was kept so secret that the people responsible for issuing visas didn't know about it?
...
Come to think of it, that's not impossible either.

And no, those issuing the waivers cannot correct it. Congress have to fix it by changing the law, apparently. Thus the introduction of a bill.

Martin Luther King Junior was a teh ebil terrorist too! :rolleyes:

I hate our Government..

Thatcher thought he was a terrorist, but she's senile and confused him with her son.;)

Martin Luther King Junior was a teh ebil terrorist too! :rolleyes:

I hate our Government..

No, King never advocated violence.

Malcolm X, on the other hand, did. Though he had a change of heart later.

http://www.idrewthis.org/comics/idt20050427watchlist.gif

Oh, and as this article from 2003 shows:
Article (http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3&art_id=ct20030810102700522T600578)

It's not like thay haven't know about this for a long time...

A US embassy source said the state department was reviewing its list of "undesirable" South Africans, "but this could take a long time.
No shit!

Well its either laugh or cry when you see the reality of it. Better to laugh, I reckon.

I totally agree. Better to laugh than to bawl.

proof ??? you have Mr. Mandela's passport perhaps ?
I would have figured this would have been made and issue every time he has visited the US.
Also even if true were the ones issuing the special Visas in a position to fix the problem?

I think Grav already stated it. Every time Mandela has visited the US is by special vouchers because he is, still, on the US Terrorist Watch List. The only reason this hasn´t been a big issue is because most Americans have no idea that Nelson Mandela is flagged by the US government. What other proof do you need?

Anyone want to guess who Mandela saw on his first trip overseas after being released from prison?

Anyone want to guess who Mandela saw on his first trip overseas after being released from prison?

Tell us.

Tell us.

Probably Fidel, since AP is getting all excited about it.

Yes well obviously, as Mandela was a terrorist, and a communist one at that.....:rolleyes:

Proof of what? What the article claimed?

They were placed on the list in the 1970s and '80s - and Nelson Mandela has never been denied entry to the US since his release. Not back in october '94, for example. Do you think the list was kept so secret that the people responsible for issuing visas didn't know about it?
...
Come to think of it, that's not impossible either.

And no, those issuing the waivers cannot correct it. Congress have to fix it by changing the law, apparently. Thus the introduction of a bill.

I mean did the article say he had delays in getting his visas on previous visits?
normally heads of state also get preferred treatment form the state department so they might have know, and realized it was not needed in his case.

Lillian Hellman was on such a list during the Cold War. I don't give them much credence, then or now.

You said it yourself. He WAS a terrorist. (emphasis being on the past tense) He isn't one anymore and therefore shouldn't be flagged on a list.

Maybe we need a "Reformed Terrorist" list.

Martin Luther King Junior was a teh ebil terrorist too! :rolleyes:

I hate our Government..

Except that Martin Luther King Jr. never used violence as a political tactic.

In all fairness to Mandella, though, he has admitted that the ANC violated human rights in its struggle against Apartheid and has apparently been vehemently against whitewashing this fact.

EDIT: Also, as far as I know, Mandella's attacks were never directed towards civilians, but government and military (ironically, mostly black by then, iirc) targets.

Probably Fidel, since AP is getting all excited about it.

Fidel Castro? Meh, coming from AP, it would make sense.:p

Yes well obviously, as Mandela was a terrorist, and a communist one at that....

...in the same way Jesus was a dissident and a Jewish nationalist....

Anyone want to guess who Mandela saw on his first trip overseas after being released from prison?

It was me. Not a lot of people know about it, but Mandela took a quick visit to Ireland and had a few drinks with me.

It was me. Not a lot of people know about it, but Mandela took a quick visit to Ireland and had a few drinks with me.

Did you offer Mandela some poitín?:D

Did you offer Mandela some poitín?:D

I was going to, but he helped himself. Greedy bugger.

I was going to, but he helped himself. Greedy bugger.

That's sort of how he got on the list in the first place.

I think Grav already stated it. Every time Mandela has visited the US is by special vouchers because he is, still, on the US Terrorist Watch List. The only reason this hasn´t been a big issue is because most Americans have no idea that Nelson Mandela is flagged by the US government. What other proof do you need?

He has never needed it because during all his trips to the US he has applied for a visa as a goverment minister. So he got the same treatment as ever other world leader. the terrorist watch list only comes into play if he comes to the US as a private citizen.

I was going to, but he helped himself. Greedy bugger.

Greedy bugger indeed. Taking advantage of the hospitality of the Irish. Shame on him!:D

He has never needed it because during all his trips to the US he has applied for a visa as a goverment minister. So he got the same treatment as ever other world leader. the terrorist watch list only comes into play if he comes to the US as a private citizen.

Still, even if he goes to the US as a private citizen, from his trajectory of the past 2 decades, it's retarded that he's still on the US Terrorist list. If it was an oversight, ok. If not, shame on the US.:rolleyes:

...in the same way Jesus was a dissident and a Jewish nationalist....
Heh, what a stupid comparison. Jesus was not a "jewish nationalist", by the way.:rolleyes: Also, Jesus was non-violent... They don't compare at all.

Fine. Take Mandela off the list if you want, but don't come bitching to me when he hijacks an airplane.

:p

Still, even if he goes to the US as a private citizen, from his trajectory of the past 2 decades, it's retarded that he's still on the US Terrorist list. If it was an oversight, ok. If not, shame on the US.:rolleyes:
Haha. But if it is an oversight, then how inept are we? Really!

Heh, what a stupid comparison. Jesus was not a "jewish nationalist", by the way.:rolleyes: Also, Jesus was non-violent... They don't compare at all.
And the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the moneychangers seated. And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the moneychangers, and overturned their tables; and to those who were selling the doves He said, “Take these things away; stop making My Father's house a house of merchandise.” (John 2:13-17).

What now?

EDIT: Also, I'm pretty sure Jesus is supposed to come back with a flaming sword on the day of Judgment.

Fine. Take Mandela off the list if you want, but don't come bitching to me when he hijacks an airplane.

:p

Alarmist to the hilt, eh?;)

[QUOTE=Everywhar;13662013]Haha. But if it is an oversight, then how inept are we? Really![QUOTE]

United Stated of America= Ineptitude

;)

He has never needed it because during all his trips to the US he has applied for a visa as a goverment minister. So he got the same treatment as ever other world leader. the terrorist watch list only comes into play if he comes to the US as a private citizen.

Wrong. He has visited the US both before and after being president.

To illustrate, he was in the US in 1990 (http://openvault.wgbh.org/ton/MLA000721/index.html), before he was elected president, in 1999 (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A04EFDA1431F933A25751C1A96F958260)after he had retired as president, and in 2005 (http://www.africaaction.org/newsroom/index.php?op=read&documentid=910&type=15&regions=2), six years later. Not a government minister at those times.

Wrong. He has visited the US both before and after being president.

To illustrate, he was in the US in 1990 (http://openvault.wgbh.org/ton/MLA000721/index.html), before he was elected president, in 1999 (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A04EFDA1431F933A25751C1A96F958260)after he had retired as president, and in 2005 (http://www.africaaction.org/newsroom/index.php?op=read&documentid=910&type=15&regions=2), six years later. Not a government minister at those times.

Which is why it's so retarded that he's still included in the US Terrorist list. And Mrs. Rice act of "shame" seems to me like an act.

Which is why it's so retarded that he's still included in the US Terrorist list. And Mrs. Rice act of "shame" seems to me like an act.

Indeed.

Though it might be that Mrs. Rice is finally waking up and smelling the coffee. Never too late, I say.

(Though since they were supposed to remove him 5 years ago, I doubt it. Incompetence all around...)

Indeed.

Though it might be that Mrs. Rice is finally waking up and smelling the coffee. Never too late, I say.

(Though since they were supposed to remove him 5 years ago, I doubt it. Incompetence all around...)

Agreed.

Heh, what a stupid comparison. Jesus was not a "jewish nationalist", by the way.:rolleyes: Also, Jesus was non-violent... They don't compare at all.


Not the sharpest, are we?

Wrong. He has visited the US both before and after being president.

To illustrate, he was in the US in 1990 (http://openvault.wgbh.org/ton/MLA000721/index.html), before he was elected president, in 1999 (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A04EFDA1431F933A25751C1A96F958260)after he had retired as president, and in 2005 (http://www.africaaction.org/newsroom/index.php?op=read&documentid=910&type=15&regions=2), six years later. Not a government minister at those times.

he has had no problems thus far.
Mandela has never been refused a visa.
source http://www.int.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3&art_id=ct20030810102700522T600578
the state department still considers retired heads of state, ministers just look at Jimmy Carter if you need a comparable Us example.
and party leaders if recognized by the state they come from. in 1990 he was a party leader of the ANC, a recently recognized party in South Africa. the post presidential visits would be covered retired head of state clause.

You want someone who unjustly has a hard time coming to the US just look at the president of Taiwan. Sometimes we have treated him worse then a terrorist.

News that make you go "WTF?!".



http://news.aol.com/story/_a/mandela-is-on-us-terrorist-watch-lists/20080501090309990001

This makes you wonder what's truly going on in the minds of Americans, but specially their government.

Didn't Nelson Mandela commit acts of terrorism in SA?

I believe it. While I respect him greatly, he was. Just in a subcategory known as 'Freedom Fighter.'

Going further, General George "Warlord" Washington was similarly a terrorist, and a great portion of the Eastern Canadian population is descended from Loyalists our brave army terrorised.

No sarcasm in this post. Whatsoever.

I believe it. While I respect him greatly, he was. Just in a subcategory known as 'Freedom Fighter.'

Going further, General George "Warlord" Washington was similarly a terrorist, and a great portion of the Eastern Canadian population is descended from Loyalists our brave army terrorised.

No sarcasm in this post. Whatsoever.

A freedom fighter who committed acts of terrorism?

And people wonder why hes classed as a terrorist?

A freedom fighter who committed acts of terrorism?

And people wonder why hes classed as a terrorist?

Freedom fighters in general are considered terrorists. If they take deliberate action, like Mandela and Washington, they are terrorists. If they peacefully protest, like Gandhi, they may be classified as terrorists, but in my opinion they are not.

Rebelling for a just cause is terrorism, if you take action. It's simply justified.

Freedom fighters in general are considered terrorists. If they take deliberate action, like Mandela and Washington, they are terrorists. If they peacefully protest, like Gandhi, they may be classified as terrorists, but in my opinion they are not.

Rebelling for a just cause is terrorism, if you take action. It's simply justified.

Thats not the point, he committed acts of terrorism therefore he is a terrorist. Regardless of whether or not you think it was justified.

Thats not the point, he committed acts of terrorism therefore he is a terrorist. Regardless of whether or not you think it was justified.

That's exactly what I said...

...

I think...

That's exactly what I said...

...

I think...

More or less...

News that make you go "WTF?!".



http://news.aol.com/story/_a/mandela-is-on-us-terrorist-watch-lists/20080501090309990001

This makes you wonder what's truly going on in the minds of Americans, but specially their government.

Yep. WTF? This is news? Even Mandela wouldn't try to hide his past. Funny thing about truth; only those which follow lies would attempt to hide the blood on their hands.

Actually, I think this brings up a good point with some relevance to today. Can a terrorist (or whatever you want to call them) change their ways...and if so, should they be forgiven if they openly admit and acknowledge the blood they shed directly, by association, or by passivity? Maybe this should be another thread....

Sorry, maybe I should have been more clear. I was talking about our government, not our citizens.

<snip>

And some do. I try to open other people's eyes, but they often resist, telling me I'm being "too negative." Basically, people are extremely wedded to the idea that the government is benevolent. And we have people who try to point out that the US is not benevolent. Noam Chomsky is a good example. And he's widely hated for it. (But also widely liked by people like me.)

I believe that the degree of governmental malevolence (relating only to the society in question and dismissing outside comparisons) can be gauged relative to the degree of passivity within the governed populace.

I must disagree with you and assert that the actions of the government in question is indeed the responsibility of the passive and actively supporting populace which ultimately grants it license to govern. I would apply this to the most powerful and malevolently despotic, to the weakest and most benevolently peaceful governments...all still abide by the ultimate authority of those they govern.

Since you mentioned it, I too like much of what Chomsky has to say.

Is this even a surprise, knowing how ridiculous the no-fly list is? I mean, seriously, everyone and their mother (and recently born baby sister) is on the frickin' no-fly list.

he has had no problems thus far.
That's what I said - back when you demanded proof.


the state department still considers retired heads of state, ministers just look at Jimmy Carter if you need a comparable Us example.
and party leaders if recognized by the state they come from. in 1990 he was a party leader of the ANC, a recently recognized party in South Africa.
Nope. Party leaders are not exempt in any way, if they're suspected of being terrorists - even if the home state recognizes them. Current Iranian president Ahmadinejad initially had some trouble getting a visa back in 2005:
Despite initial legal objections from the Department of Homeland Security, the Bush administration yesterday granted a visa to Iran's new president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, to attend the opening next week of the U.N. General Assembly, according to the State Department.

Technically, Ahmadinejad was found ineligible for a visa under immigration laws that prohibit the issuance of a U.S. visa if there is "reason to believe" that the applicant has ever been involved in activity that supports or furthers terrorism, a senior State Department official said.
Link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/06/AR2005090601602.html)

He was granted a waiver too. So it's not granted automatically to acting heads of state, and absolutely not for head of parties.

the post presidential visits would be covered retired head of state clause.
What "retired head of state clause"?


You want someone who unjustly has a hard time coming to the US just look at the president of Taiwan. Sometimes we have treated him worse then a terrorist.
I'm happy you can show us that.

Didn't Nelson Mandela commit acts of terrorism in SA?

Provide examples and proof please. I've not heard of them (except for a few accusations made by, IIRC, greed and death that he hasn't backed up with anything . . .).

Freedom fighters in general are considered terrorists. If they take deliberate action, like Mandela and Washington, they are terrorists. If they peacefully protest, like Gandhi, they may be classified as terrorists, but in my opinion they are not.

Rebelling for a just cause is terrorism, if you take action. It's simply justified.

If you take deliberate actions against CIVILIANS you're a terrorist, if you take deliberate action against government and/or military targets you're a revolutionary.

If you take deliberate actions against CIVILIANS you're a terrorist, if you take deliberate action against government and/or military targets you're a revolutionary.

Aye...

I forgot that little tidbit...

Although Washington did assault Loyalist civilians, so my point is still valid...

News that make you go "WTF?!".



http://news.aol.com/story/_a/mandela-is-on-us-terrorist-watch-lists/20080501090309990001

This makes you wonder what's truly going on in the minds of Americans, but specially their government.

He was a terrorist, part of the African National Congress's MK unit, their militant wing. Actually he was the leader of it. He plotted bombings, assassinations, and the ANC's guerrilla participation in the South African Border War with Angola/USSR/East Germany/Cuba/ZANU-PF/etc

Is this even a surprise, knowing how ridiculous the no-fly list is? I mean, seriously, everyone and their mother (and recently born baby sister) is on the frickin' no-fly list.


Imagine then, this poor bastard..... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bbnVKCDjmU)

He was a terrorist, part of the African National Congress's MK unit, their militant wing. Actually he was the leader of it. He plotted bombings, assassinations, and the ANC's guerrilla participation in the South African Border War with Angola/USSR/East Germany/Cuba/ZANU-PF/etc

And you never know, he might blow up a mailbox near you today! :eek:

He was a terrorist, part of the African National Congress's MK unit, their militant wing. Actually he was the leader of it. He plotted bombings, assassinations, and the ANC's guerrilla participation in the South African Border War with Angola/USSR/East Germany/Cuba/ZANU-PF/etc

Against military, government, or civilian targets? As for participation in a Border War, since when has participating in a war been a terrorist act?

Against military, government, or civilian targets? As for participation in a Border War, since when has participating in a war been a terrorist act?

Exactly Redwulf.

If it were like that, then the US should be in that list too. Every American president that has declared war on another country should be in the Terrorist list.