NationStates Jolt Archive

a proposal has been made to help the american public by removing the tax on gasoline over the summer. all 18 cents of it.

do you think this is a good idea?

No. Gas doesn't cost that much.

No. Gas doesn't cost that much.

Shut up. It is approaching 4 damn bucks a gallon where I live, fool! I think the national average is over 4 bucks...*cringes*

Yes, take it away! Give me some relief at the pump!

It seems like a half-assed temporary fix. Try building more refineries first, we need the jobs anyway.

Not at all. First of all, as an economist on NPR pointed out, cutting prices will lead to greater demand, which may raise prices. Secondly, the gas tax is great in that it is one of the few taxes that targets the people it serves. In Virginia, instead of raising the gas tax to pay for VDOT they created the hated "abusive drivers fees," which charge only Virginian bad drivers. The gas tax charges anyone who uses the road. I realize this example may be Virginia-specific, but it's the same for the entire country: charging people for gasoline allows the government to help people who use gasoline.

And of course, there's the problem with gas in the first place. I heard a bit from Sen. Clinton, who said the losses should be made up by a windfall tax on oil corporations. While I'm all for taxing rich corporations, I can't help but think this is a shallow, populist strategy to boost her own support. As President Carter didn't say (but suggested), there is a "general malaise" over the country. Sooner or later, the average Tom, Dick, or Harry is going to have to take responsibility for the oil addiction that nearly all Americans have (myself included). Cutting the gas tax will not help that.

Wow, I wrote a lot. Sorry.

EDIT: Something funny I just remembered: some of the old, non-digital pumps have had a sort of Y2K bug recently. When they were built, no one thought that gas would ever reach $4.00 a gallon, so the rotors don't go that high. The stations have to charge by the half gallon.

It seems like a half-assed temporary fix.

Better than nothing...

its like 9p what the hell?!

I say you increase to deal with any shortage you may have and to actually like grow up so you can charge people for the damage they do with fuel

Japan lost its gas tax for a month (25 yen to the L) due to political fighting. It was WONDERFUL spending about $40 to fill up my little car as opposed to $50.

Damn LDP just pushed the bill through again so there goes my lower gas prices.

Oh Reginald!!!


















I Disagree!!!!

Shut up. It is approaching 4 damn bucks a gallon where I live, fool! I think the national average is over 4 bucks...*cringes*

Yes, take it away! Give me some relief at the pump!

you think 18 cents is relief?

you think 18 cents is relief?

Better than nothing...it'll add up if the tax is gone for a few months...

No.

It is only a temporary solution that would save the consumer what, $30 over the summer? Pfft.

Yeah, so everyone can bitch and moan when the tax comes back and the price is way higher than it would have been.

Yeah, so everyone can bitch and moan when the tax comes back and the price is way higher than it would have been.

Maybe get rid of it altoghter then?

you think 18 cents is relief?
If your car holds a 25 gal tank, that's $4.50, which might not sound like a lot, but if you're fuleing every week now...

Not at all. First of all, as an economist on NPR pointed out, cutting prices will lead to greater demand, which may raise prices. Secondly, the gas tax is great in that it is one of the few taxes that targets the people it serves. In Virginia, instead of raising the gas tax to pay for VDOT they created the hated "abusive drivers fees," which charge only Virginian bad drivers. The gas tax charges anyone who uses the road. I realize this example may be Virginia-specific, but it's the same for the entire country: charging people for gasoline allows the government to help people who use gasoline.

And of course, there's the problem with gas in the first place. I heard a bit from Sen. Clinton, who said the losses should be made up by a windfall tax on oil corporations. While I'm all for taxing rich corporations, I can't help but think this is a shallow, populist strategy to boost her own support. As President Carter didn't say (but suggested), there is a "general malaise" over the country. Sooner or later, the average Tom, Dick, or Harry is going to have to take responsibility for the oil addiction that nearly all Americans have (myself included). Cutting the gas tax will not help that.

Wow, I wrote a lot. Sorry.

EDIT: Something funny I just remembered: some of the old, non-digital pumps have had a sort of Y2K bug recently. When they were built, no one thought that gas would ever reach $4.00 a gallon, so the rotors don't go that high. The stations have to charge by the half gallon.

AND I READ IT!

when it costs $60 instead of $30 to fill up my tank, im not impressed that they want to save me $2.70.

especially considering that we have underfunded the highways maintenence as it is. and that to take that money away affects employment of highway workers--we dont need more unemployment.

you think 18 cents is relief?

how much does American candy cost? :D

Shut up. It is approaching 4 damn bucks a gallon where I live, fool! I think the national average is over 4 bucks...*cringes*

Yes, take it away! Give me some relief at the pump!

It's almost $10 a gallon in the UK. Americans need to consider cutting down on the amount of gas they use.

Shut up. It is approaching 4 damn bucks a gallon where I live, fool! I think the national average is over 4 bucks...*cringes*

Yes, take it away! Give me some relief at the pump!

Eighteen cents a gallon isn't relief. $1.80 over ten gallons is not relief. It's a band-aid on a flail chest wound. We've underpaid for far too long in the name of populism and re-election. It's time to finally pay the damned piper.

Better than nothing...

No, not really. You don't seriously think that the price wouldn't go up in order to make up the deficit, do you? Perhaps (as in the Upper Midwest last August) all the local refineries will "coincidentally" be shut down for maintenance at once, screwing truckers and farmers needing #1 diesel. How else could an industry continue to record record profits (that's PROFITS, mind you, not income) and retain the lobbying power, subsidies and tax credits they get? Fuck that. Find other ways to get there, go less, share rides, conserve. Buy less. Until America understands that it's overgorged at the trough in just about every way possible, we're never going to see the freedom of movement we had in the last century.

If your car holds a 25 gal tank, that's $4.50, which might not sound like a lot, but if you're fuleing every week now...

which is an insignificant part of a $100 fillup.

something needs to be done but this is useless.

when it costs $60 instead of $30 to fill up my tank, im not impressed that they want to save me $2.70.

buy a fuel efficient car and take the train if you need to go on highways?

It's almost $10 a gallon in the UK. Americans need to consider cutting down on the amount of gas they use.

well its not like they can get out and walk I remember reading about the pavement condition in America

It's almost $10 a gallon in the UK. Americans need to consider cutting down on the amount of gas they use.

As has been mentioned numerous times on NSG, everything is spread out in the US. We need to drive to get places, as most ares outside of major cities have shitty public transportation.

I 'spose I could only drive to and from work, and to and from school and never go out and see my friends, and never go out and do anything. that would probably save some gas...

No. The gas tax helps those who pay it more than the tax actually takes away, and cutting it will do essentially nothing to help the economy.

As for the price of gas, it is almost wholly a problem of inflation. If you look at gas prices in Europe, they have moved next to nothing during America's oil crisis; it is only America that has felt the pressure of high oil and gas prices, and it is solely the fault of the federal government for ruining the purchasing power of the dollar. Where Europe manages their currency, we do nothing of the sort; it is, quite possibly, the only thing that Europe does infinitely better than the United States of America.The politician's shoddy attempts to push the problem on the oil companies and OPEC are just politics.

buy a more fuel efficient car and take the train if you need to go on highways?


oh yeah i cant afford $4 gas but i can afford a new $20,000 car. that makes sense.

AND I READ IT!

when it costs $60 instead of $30 to fill up my tank, im not impressed that they want to save me $2.70.

especially considering that we have underfunded the highways maintenence as it is. and that to take that money away affects employment of highway workers--we dont need more unemployment.

I didn't even have to pretend to address you at the beginning. :)

As has been mentioned numerous times on NSG, everything is spread out in the US. We need to drive to get places, as most ares outside of major cities have shitty public transportation.

I 'spose I could only drive to and from work, and to and from school and never go out and see my friends, and never go out and do anything. that would probably save some gas...

Maybe people will think about not living so far away from their jobs or maybe they'll vote for people who promise improved public transportation. It won't happen by magic.

AND I READ IT!

when it costs $60 instead of $30 to fill up my tank, im not impressed that they want to save me $2.70.

especially considering that we have underfunded the highways maintenence as it is. and that to take that money away affects employment of highway workers--we dont need more unemployment.

THANK YOU. I-35W in Minneapolis, anyone?

Maybe people will think about not living so far away from their jobs or maybe they'll vote for people who promise improved public transportation. It won't happen by magic.

AND THANK YOU, TOO. $5/gallon gas will strangle suburbia, and I say good riddance.

no. firstly because our infrastructure is already collapsing, and this won't help that. second, its not like thousands of people are paid to do any of that road construction with that money, right? and third, supply is already at the limit, decreasing the price just increases demand - and therefore the price will just go back up anyways, only the oil companies will get it all.

buy a more fuel efficient car and take the train if you need to go on highways?



well its not like they can get out and walk I remember reading about the pavement condition in America

umm, our train system is shit. Seriously, it's been closing routes instead of opening them recently. And it would be possible to do more walking within an urban area, but in a lot of places it just isn't safe or feasible.

oh yeah i cant afford $4 gas but i can afford a new $20,000 car. that makes sense.

what you think gas prices are going to go down?

Maybe people will think about not living so far away from their jobs or maybe they'll vote for people who promise improved public transportation. It won't happen by magic.

And it won't happen in a night either.

No one wants to live in the cities because they are absolute shitholes. They're old, dirty, rundown, and full of crime. That's why we live in the suburbs.

Now I agree people don't need to live an hour or more away from their job, but people don't need to live right next to it either.

So wtf are we supposed to do in the meantime?

Just go to work and school and never do anything? -fuck that.

oh yeah i cant afford $4 gas but i can afford a new $20,000 car. that makes sense.

there's your policy towards high gas prices. everybody gets a couple grand to trade in their fucking suv for a more realistic vehicle. won't lower gas prices, because nothing will, but can at least help out a bit.

of course, we should also start making the distant suburbs into ghost towns as a matter of policy, and build some fucking mass transit infrastructure too.

a proposal has been made to help the american public by removing the tax on gasoline over the summer. all 18 cents of it.

do you think this is a good idea?

Dropping the gas tax will just make the potential for demand and raise the price beyond the .18 drop. Plus the revenue would be lost.

So wtf are we supposed to do in the meantime?

pay $150 to fill up your tank

what you think gas prices are going to go down?

yes i do. when george bush is no longer president.

but no matter what the price goes up to, it doesnt give me the money to buy a new car.

there's your policy towards high gas prices. everybody gets a couple grand to trade in their fucking suv for a more realistic vehicle. won't lower gas prices, because nothing will, but can at least help out a bit.

of course, we should also start making the distant suburbs into ghost towns as a matter of policy, and build some fucking mass transit infrastructure too.

And just where the hell will the people of suburbia move to? The goddamn fucking shit-hole cites?!

Dropping the gas tax will just make the potential for demand and raise the price beyond the .18 drop. Plus the revenue would be lost.

damn you, supply and demand! damn you!!!!!

As has been mentioned numerous times on NSG, everything is spread out in the US. We need to drive to get places, as most ares outside of major cities have shitty public transportation.

I 'spose I could only drive to and from work, and to and from school and never go out and see my friends, and never go out and do anything. that would probably save some gas...

It probably would.

We don't ALL need to drive to get places. And we don't ALL need to live 50 miles from the urban cores where the jobs are, either. We CHOOSE to. If that's your choice, then crowbar that wallet open, pal.

Now out here in the Dakotas, you have a point. But in my home region, Puget Sound, FAR too many people have swelled the suburbs because gas was cheap. That's over and it's never coming back. Pulling a 5% election year discount (nixing the federal tax on 11.5 gallons for my usual fill-up at the going rate of $3.60/gallon is a savings of $2.07 over a $41.40 bill -- exactly 5%) is a cheap ploy to fool some folks into thinking something's being done.

And just where the hell will the people of suburbia move to? The goddamn fucking shit-hole cites?!

yup. or, i suppose, take up subsistence farming or something.

suburbia is no longer economically viable, and was never environmentally so. good fucking riddance.

pay $150 to fill up your tank

Well its not that bad yet...I only have to pay 40 or so.

And just where the hell will the people of suburbia move to? The goddamn fucking shit-hole cites?!

Ok, looks like someone lives out in the country. And has a lot of anger. The problem with people living in the cities isn't the state of the cities, that can be addressed if people care enough, it's that there isn't enough space in the cities, and in a lot of cases the infrastructure of the cities just can't handle too many more people. The suburbs are necessary in some respects.

Talk to me when you spend about $200 to fill up you car. That is what it costs me if I am near empty. The fact of the matter is though, that gas/diesel is still cheep here in this country. Why are people complaining so much about it here but you do not hear people in, say, England where people are paying $7 or more a gallon? I drive a ford F-250 diesel, and I don't complain about the price of fuel. I make up for it by riding my bike or taking public transportation to work.

Taking the gas tax away will do nothing but make our highway system, that is already in bad shape, even worse. So suck it up and deal with it. If you are so concerned about it, buy a car that gets better gas millage, and do not say you can not afford one, because if you already have a car, sell it and buy something like a Honda Civic from the late 80's. If you take good care of them they can get up to 35 mpgs, and they only sell for like 2k or less, usually less.

Besides if the gas tax gets taken off, then people will drive more. When people drive more demand goes up. When demand goes up the price goes up. So what do we have here? We would be back at the same price in a matter of weeks,probably sooner, if not higher.

Ok, looks like someone lives out in the country. And has a lot of anger. The problem with people living in the cities isn't the state of the cities, that can be addressed if people care enough, it's that there isn't enough space in the cities, and in a lot of cases the infrastructure of the cities just can't handle too many more people. The suburbs are necessary in some respects.

The cities I live near are fairly nice. Seattle, Tacoma, Portland and further down south I would even point at San Francisco. They are simply to expensive to buy a home for the average person.

Well its not that bad yet...I only have to pay 40 or so.

give it a year.

and it was already nearly that for the hummer i saw at a gas station the other day. sucker!

No one wants to live in the cities because they are absolute shitholes. They're old, dirty, rundown, and full of crime. That's why we live in the suburbs.

That's your call but there's a price to pay for that.

Now I agree people don't need to live an hour or more away from their job, but people don't need to live right next to it either.

In London I'd pretty much walk anywhere as long as it took less than an hour. In L.A I don't have that luxury but, hey, no one forced me to live there.


So wtf are we supposed to do in the meantime?

In the meantime? That sounds like there's a destination. People aren't pushing for more sustainable housing arrangements or for more public transportation and they aren't going to start unless they have some incentive.

Well, due to the fact that you guys do not have access to Uranium 235 and are not capable of building a nuclear reactor, I feel sorry for you as now all I do is go to my local black market and buy the Uranium 235 from some guy the Indian sub-continent.

*Drives away in a nuclear reactor powered car.*

And just where the hell will the people of suburbia move to? The goddamn fucking shit-hole cites?!

YES, for fuck's sake. MOVE WHERE THE FUCKING JOB IS. If the neighborhood is not perfectly manicured, get off your ass. If the cops aren't doing their job, lobby the mayor! We have a responsibility as citizens to actually BE FUCKING CITIZENS and not just sit on our asses and complain.

If your area's a shit-hole, FIX IT. Get to know your neighbors (God forbid we should actually talk to people every so often) and straighten that shit out. What's the alternative? I can't stress this enough -- the days of cheap gas are bleeding well gone.

Well, due to the fact that you guys do not have access to Uranium 235 and are not capable of building a nuclear reactor, I feel sorry for you as now all I do is go to my local black market and buy the Uranium 235 from some guy the Indian sub-continent.

*Drives away in a nuclear reactor powered car.*

*gets cancer in five years*

umm, our train system is shit. Seriously, it's been closing routes instead of opening them recently. And it would be possible to do more walking within an urban area, but in a lot of places it just isn't safe or feasible.

write to your representative and get Richard Branson on the line!

yes i do. when george bush is no longer president.

believe in magic?

but no matter what the price goes up to, it doesnt give me the money to buy a new car.

the money you will save in the long run will even it out, its a good investment

And just where the hell will the people of suburbia move to? The goddamn fucking shit-hole cites?!

yes and it will be good medicine as to what happens when you create nice little communities far away from those smelly poor

Well, due to the fact that you guys do not have access to Uranium 235 and are not capable of building a nuclear reactor, I feel sorry for you as now all I do is go to my local black market and buy the Uranium 235 from some guy the Indian sub-continent.

*Drives away in a nuclear reactor powered car.*

i, for one, look forward to our solar powered go-karts.

...though i am a bit frightened of the traffic jams on cloudy days.

YES, for fuck's sake. MOVE WHERE THE FUCKING JOB IS. If the neighborhood is not perfectly manicured, get off your ass. If the cops aren't doing their job, lobby the mayor! We have a responsibility as citizens to actually BE FUCKING CITIZENS and not just sit on our asses and complain.

If your area's a shit-hole, FIX IT. Get to know your neighbors (God forbid we should actually talk to people every so often) and straighten that shit out. What's the alternative? I can't stress this enough -- the days of cheap gas are bleeding well gone.

I live in a suburb...I have a job in the suburb. My job is out here. I'm not moving into a shithole city. EVER.

I start going crazy if I spend a day in the city. There's no way in hell I could ever live in one.

I should look into buying a horse...

I don't think it would do anything but encourage the oil companies to jack the price up another 25 cents a gallon. If you want to curb rising fuel prices, you have to curb big oil and OPEC greed first.

yes and it will be good medicine as to what happens when you create nice little communities far away from those smelly poor

The fuck?

Ok, looks like someone lives out in the country. And has a lot of anger. The problem with people living in the cities isn't the state of the cities, that can be addressed if people care enough, it's that there isn't enough space in the cities, and in a lot of cases the infrastructure of the cities just can't handle too many more people. The suburbs are necessary in some respects.

Mumbai houses 13,662,885 people if the demand is there it can be done rather easy

If you want to curb rising fuel prices, you have to curb big oil and OPEC greed first.

won't work, unless you go all out into actual rationing of gas at set prices. demand is growing while supply has leveled off and is starting to dwindle. that means prices go up. it ain't really much of a mystery.

Or we could just all switch to cars powered by pressurized air. Seriously.

Also, because America has some of the largest deposits of oil shale in the world, and research into procuring oil from the shale will soon increase as it becomes more economically sound. I would predict that, unless some sort of total collapse were to happen beforehand, America will eventually become the world's largest exporter of oil as well as the largest consumer of oil.

*Whistles "Always Look on the Bright Side of Life"*

I don't think it would do anything but encourage the oil companies to jack the price up another 25 cents a gallon. If you want to curb rising fuel prices, you have to curb big oil and OPEC greed first.

Again I post: the oil prices in America are almost entirely created by inflation. While OPEC and Exxon have done nothing to assist us in our problem, it is hardly their fault that the dollar has decreased so much.

I live in a suburb...I have a job in the suburb. My job is out here. I'm not moving into a shithole city. EVER.

I start going crazy if I spend a day in the city. There's no way in hell I could ever live in one.

I should look into buying a horse...

How close are you to your job? What do you drive?

Ok disregard my idiotic name for now. First off the suburbs are inmoprtant, cause not all of us that have 6 people in a family can afford the 5 mill dollar house in the city to live in. Second just so you guys know there are biodiesel gas stations seling biodiesel @ $1.50 a gallon. No conversion in necesary to run biodiesel in a diesel engine. Third anyone who doesn't want to pay rediculous gas prices, you can get a wvo or an svo conversion for anywhere from $700-$2000. Then all you do is ask your local restaurant if you could take away thier waste vegetable oil (more often than not they say yes, because it costs them money to get it hauled away). Filter the wvo in a cheap system (about $200) and you get all the free gas you want.

Or we could just all switch to cars powered by pressurized air. Seriously.

Also, because America has some of the largest deposits of oil shale in the world, and research into procuring oil from the shale will soon increase as it becomes more economically sound. I would predict that, unless some sort of total collapse were to happen beforehand, America will eventually become the world's largest exporter of oil as well as the largest consumer of oil.

*Whistles "Always Look on the Bright Side of Life"*



Again I post: the oil prices in America are almost entirely created by inflation. While OPEC and Exxon have done nothing to assist us in our problem, it is hardly their fault that the dollar has decreased so much.

Well said.

How close are you to your job? What do you drive?

I'm like 10-15 minutes away from my job, and I drive a Saturn L100 or something like that. (its a 2001 model)

Mumbai houses 13,662,885 people if the demand is there it can be done rather easy

And Mumbai is just the happiest place on earth isn't it? I know that people can be stuffed into small spaces, but unless you can somehow make building skyscrapers cheap (and then keep the apartments cheap) you can't pull that off in America. It's the only way to maximize space that seems to work.

The money people will get back will be a small amount, individually, but that money pays for things like the highway system. America's infrastructure is falling apart as it is. This idea is both an insulting, pandering attempt to appear to help voters while actually achieving nothing, and a suicidally incompetent move of we want to prevent car crashes, bridge collapses and the like. Shame on Clinton and Macain for supporting it, and three cheers for Obama for having the balls to oppose it.

How close are you to your job? What do you drive?

And which city? LA? NY? Seriously, these are the only two that I can see such hate directed at.

The fuck?

I'm saying its America's own fault its in this mess and it seems rather fitting that those suburban family's must now deal with the cities they decided to neglect

course they could just take public transport but no they neglected that too hmmm, well surely they could just use fuel efficient cars if only they hadn't decided to buy SUV's....I suppose you still have carpooling :confused:

won't work, unless you go all out into actual rationing of gas at set prices. demand is growing while supply has leveled off and is starting to dwindle. that means prices go up. it ain't really much of a mystery.

I know, but he wanted to know about what would happen if we took away the 18 cents worth tax. Demanding is driving the price, but so is greed. I vote we find cheaper forms of alternative fuel, and screw OPEC and big oil.

Well said.

Thank you. I am sure the you knows who he is. ;)

I'm saying its America's own fault its in this mess and it seems rather fitting that those suburban family's must now deal with the cities they decided to neglect

course they could just take public transport but no they neglected that too hmmm, well surely they could just use fuel efficient cars if only they hadn't decided to buy SUV's....I suppose you still have carpooling :confused:



People decided to abandon the cities because they fucking suck!

Our cities and roads were build when oil was cheap, and everyone thought it would stay cheap.

We need more public transportation, but the cities are not the suburbs fault. The cities are the people of the cities fault for making them suck.

They've had at least 50 years since suburbs first came into being to become non-shitholes. They ar still shit holes. Its not the suburbs fault.

And Mumbai is just the happiest place on earth isn't it? I know that people can be stuffed into small spaces, but unless you can somehow make building skyscrapers cheap (and then keep the apartments cheap) you can't pull that off in America. It's the only way to maximize space that seems to work.

government (because your banks seem to have shat the bed) loans to building companies who will rent the buildings out etc when done followed through with investment in city transport and Council housing

cities are well known for springing up overnight

People decided to abandon the cities because they fucking suck!

Our cities and roads were build when oil was cheap, and everyone thought it would stay cheap.

We need more public transportation, but the cities are not the suburbs fault. The cities are the people of the cities fault for making them suck.

They've had at least 50 years since suburbs first came into being to become non-shitholes. They ar still shit holes. Its not the suburbs fault.

Most of Americas cities are fairly nice. Where do you live? Detroit?

Ok first off all you assholes cna shut up, cause not all of us can cram a family of 6 into a 2 bedroom apartment. Not all of us are rich bastards. Second if you hate the price of gas so much FUCKING DO SOMETHING i buy biodiesel @ $1.50 gallon. i'm also lookin into geting a wvo convert so i can run my car on vegetable oil FOR FREE. it only costs $700-$2000 and will easily pay for itself.

government (because your banks seem to have shat the bed) loans to building companies who will rent the buildings out etc when done followed through with investment in city transport and Council housing

cities are well known for springing up overnight

Government needs to stay completely out of it.

People decided to abandon the cities because they fucking suck!

unfortunately you don't live in an agrarian society

We need more public transportation, but the cities are not the suburbs fault. The cities are the people of the cities fault for making them suck.

so this has nothing to do with Americas poor being stuck in the cities whilst the middle class live segregated happy lives content that they can cut welfare and public funds?

Long-term, this won't solve the gas problem. It's a bad idea to have such a short-term fix especially when the gas tax would be back in the fall.

People decided to abandon the cities because they fucking suck!


You seem to have some crazy hatred of cities but property prices attest to their popularity. Most people left the cities so that they could get bigger houses and gas prices are simply a con to that pro.

I'm saying its America's own fault its in this mess and it seems rather fitting that those suburban family's must now deal with the cities they decided to neglect

course they could just take public transport but no they neglected that too hmmm, well surely they could just use fuel efficient cars if only they hadn't decided to buy SUV's....I suppose you still have carpooling :confused:Or you could buy coal powered cars.

*Drives away in a smoke blowing machine of some sort.*

Most of Americas cities are fairly nice. Where do you live? Detroit?

I live in a suburb of Kansas City. As far as cities go, KC is pretty nice. But cities in general being nice? No. They are to crowded, to noisy, to smelly, don't have enough room, and are full of crime.

I have never been in a city I didn't want to leave after a few hours.

government (because your banks seem to have shat the bed) loans to building companies who will rent the buildings out etc when done followed through with investment in city transport and Council housing

cities are well known for springing up overnight

These aren't going to be new cities though, if people are going to move back it's going to take a dramatic reorganization of the cities themselves. Most of the good spots for cities have already been taken, so unless you plan on building more Las Vegas/Phoenix type cities in the desert, it's going to be hard for people and the cities themselves to adjust. That being said, Phoenix is waay too spread out to solve this problem, everybody wants their own house, and it doesn't cost too much to just push out into the desert.

Government needs to stay completely out of it.

like the banks are going to fund property these days:p

not alone with the fact that the government is the only entity with deep enough coffers and the ability to create safe affordable housing rapidly

Would it help, short term yeah. Long term, fuck no. Actually I'm not convinced it'd help short term. Annual gas usage in the US is 146 billion gallons. That's four million gallons a day. Federal gas tax is 18.4 Cpg. Assuming they suspend the gas tax for 120 days (3 months). $88,320,000 down the tubes for three months. That's for an 18.4 cent drop per gallon in the price of gas.

It's almost $10 a gallon in the UK. Americans need to consider cutting down on the amount of gas they use.

Not going to happen...It may work in large Cities like New York, but down here, itd take a day and a half to walk to the nearest Store...

Gas, and by Gas, i mean cars, are an essential part of life, and its not going to go away...

You guys should Riot...

Or you could buy coal powered cars.

*Drives away in a smoke blowing machine of some sort.*

That would be soo badass. You'd have to carry your own coal though. :(

I live in a suburb of Kansas City. As far as cities go, KC is pretty nice. But cities in general being nice? No. They are to crowded, to noisy, to smelly, don't have enough room, and are full of crime.

I have never been in a city I didn't want to leave after a few hours.

Oh, see there's your problem. You live in Missouri. You don't have a good idea of what a city is. KC and St. Louis are both shitholes. Ok.

You guys should Riot...

We should be threatening to lynch the federal government in its entirety for its incredibly destructive monetary policy. Instead, we are content to post on this forum to vent our frustrations before buying our soon-to-be 11$-a-gallon gas. ;)

unfortunately you don't live in an agrarian society

What does that have to do with anything?



so this has nothing to do with Americas poor being stuck in the cities whilst the middle class live segregated happy lives content that they can cut welfare and public funds?

So you want the suburbs dead, gas to by billion dollars a gallon, AND you want us to be a socialist country?! You sir are too much!

You seem to have some crazy hatred of cities but property prices attest to their popularity. Most people left the cities so that they could get bigger houses and gas prices are simply a con to that pro.

I'm pretty damn sure it was to get away from crime as well as nice houses and nice schools.

I have to quote a political blog (http://www.idrewthis.org/index.html)I read.
John McCain has proposed eliminating the federal gas tax (18.4¢ on gasoline, 24.4¢ on diesel) between Labor Day and Memorial Day, as a way to ease gas prices and stimulate the economy. He's been hammering Obama for opposing this idea, and Hillary has jumped on the bandwagon. But it's a dumb idea, and here's why:


1. The Highway Trust Fund, which funds highway infrastructure, would lose revenue. Americans apparently have short memories; the I-35W bridge collapse was less than a year ago, but the concern for the state of our bridges and highways that it created seems to have been short-lived.
2. The proposal is unlikely to pass Congress. The states would stand to lose Highway Trust Fund revenue. Representatives from large states with lots of highway miles will oppose it.
3. There's no guarantee the pump price will go down. Oil companies might just end up absorbing the extra profit. We don't have much excess refining capacity in the U.S. The lower price would create additional demand, as people drove more; this would likely cause prices to go up again as more demand chased the same supply of fuel.
4. It will worsen global warming. Lower prices, if they do appear, will discourage conservation and raise carbon emissions.
5. It will discourage the development of alternative fuels. Part of the reason investment in alternative fuels has been slow to appear is because many investors lost their shirts in the 1990s, when oil prices suddenly tanked. High gasoline prices mean these alternatives can compete. If there's uncertainty that prices will stay high, investors will be scared off.

Emphasis mine--the tax break would cause all sorts of problems, and for what?

It won't actually save anyone that much money.

Reader Sylvie wrote in to point this out to me, using the example of someone commuting in a 28 mpg car. I agreed but noted that the numbers would be different for someone with a less efficient vehicle. But then Dr. Housing Bubble, after noting that the plan would create an estimated $10 billion deficit in the Highway Trust Fund, ran the numbers for someone driving an 11 mpg Hummer H2, and also came up with a piddling savings:

More deficits! Are these people really serious? Okay, from Memorial Day until Labor Day, we have roughly 4 months of driving. Let us assume you are typical and drive around 15,000 miles per year, which works out to be 1,250 miles per month. So over a 4 month period we’ll be driving our H2 for 5,000 miles. At 11 mpg let us run the numbers to see how much we’ll save:

6,000 miles / 11 mpg = 545 gallons needed

545 x 18.4 cents = $100.28 grand total saved!

Bwahahaha! Holy crap we are so screwed. All this insanity over a freaking $100 bucks?

I realize $100 is starting to get into real money for some people, but spread over four months? It starts to look like pocket change. It's certainly not going to do much to stimulate the economy. At best it might stimulate a little more driving. And of course the above calculation assumes the pump price actually drops the full 18.4 cents, which is unlikely.

$100 at most! Sure, it's nice to have, but it isn't nearly enough to really help at all in the long run. Hell, it barely helps anybody in the short run.

It's sickening. This is just a blatant attempt to pander to the uneducated voter. I applaud Senator Obama for having the courage to oppose it, even if it will lose him votes.

Oh, see there's your problem. You live in Missouri. You don't have a good idea of what a city is. KC and St. Louis are both shitholes. Ok.

No, I live in Kansas.

And all cities I've been to are shit holes. I used to live in a suburb of Philadelphia, and a suburb of Atlanta. They both sucked. (I haven't been to Atlanta in years, so maybe it is better? [doubt it though- as its just gotten more crowded...])

$100 at most! Sure, it's nice to have, but it isn't nearly enough to really help at all in the long run. Hell, it barely helps anybody in the short run.*Rolls around in gold bullion as he thanks God for the world not knowing the true price of oil.*

An extra hundred bucks sure would help me...

No, I live in Kansas.

And all cities I've been to are shit holes. I used to live in a suburb of Philadelphia, and a suburb of Atlanta. They both sucked. (I haven't been to Atlanta in years, so maybe it is better? [doubt it though- as its just gotten more crowded...])

I went to Atlanta in November...It was pretty cool...

New York, Philadelphia, Richmond, and all of New Jersey sucked though...

I'm pretty damn sure it was to get away from crime as well as nice houses and nice schools.

There are low crime areas of cities and nice schools in cities.

I honestly can't get my head around people who don't like cities like New York and London. What, the buildings are too nice? There's too much stuff to do?

There are low crime areas of cities and nice schools in cities.

Possibly.

They are still too crowded, too noisy, too cramped, and too expensive.

I honestly can't get my head around people who don't like cities like New York and London. What, the buildings are too nice? There's too much stuff to do?

Well, ive never been to London....though id like to go one day...

But the people in New York were dicks...

No, I live in Kansas.

And all cities I've been to are shit holes. I used to live in a suburb of Philadelphia, and a suburb of Atlanta. They both sucked. (I haven't been to Atlanta in years, so maybe it is better? [doubt it though- as its just gotten more crowded...])

I need to stop using google to check my geography.

I honestly can't get my head around people who don't like cities like New York and London. What, the buildings are too nice? There's too much stuff to do?No, the inner city is just not cousy, not homely, not my natural environment, tedious, crowded, dirty, smog, bums, poor people, liberals, conservatives, rich people, upper low middle class people, hippies, facists, etc.

Originally, I thought it was a good idea.

But after hearing some of the numbers, I don't really think so. Apparently, it would save each person, on average, about $30 over the course of the entire summer. And that's assuming that the gas companies don't simply raise the prices when the tax is removed or that increased demand doesn't cause them to go up.

Meanwhile, it would cause huge losses for a government already heavily in debt. Clinton would try and get around those losses by putting a new tax on the oil companies. However, that tax would likely get transferred right back to the consumer - in increased gas prices, essentially removing any benefit at all from the getting rid of the gas tax the consumer pays.

An extra hundred bucks sure would help me...

For one, $100 is assuming that oil companies don't merely increase prices themselves to take advantage of the tax break--which is ridiculous. Also, it assumes you're one of those idiots who drives a Hummer, getting 11 mpg.

Secondly, even if they don't: is $100 really worth even worse roads/bridges (remember that one collapsed from lack of maintenance?), increased emissions and all the problems that go along with it, plus a delay in the development in alternative fuels that we desperately need?
That's incredibly short-sighted.

ehh i dont see why we cant all just start stealing vegatable oil from the back of resturants and use that as feul lol

ehh i dont see why we cant all just start stealing vegatable oil from the back of resturants and use that as feul lol

There's not near enough vegetable oil to go around. And that wouldn't really end up being too different from corn ethanol, which isn't a long term solution either.

Well, ive never been to London....though id like to go one day...

But the people in New York were dicks...

That's another thing. Most of the people in cities are dicks!

I need to stop using google to check my geography.

Part, if not most, of KC is actually in Missouri. Go figure.

No, the inner city is just not cousy, not homely, not my natural environment, tedious, crowded, dirty, smog, bums, poor people, liberals, conservatives, rich people, upper low middle class people, hippies, facists, etc.

Yup.

For one, $100 is assuming that oil companies don't merely increase prices themselves to take advantage of the tax break--which is ridiculous. Also, it assumes you're one of those idiots who drives a Hummer, getting 11 mpg.

Secondly, even if they don't: is $100 really worth even worse roads/bridges (remember that one collapsed from lack of maintenance?), increased emissions and all the problems that go along with it, plus a delay in the development in alternative fuels that we desperately need?
That's incredibly short-sighted.

Hmm...

Perhaps taking away the gas tax isn't the best idea after all...

I'm still not budging on cities though.

well hey whatever floats your boat
hydrogen would work to,if only we had enough cars that could use it

Secondly, even if they don't: is $100 really worth even worse roads/bridges (remember that one collapsed from lack of maintenance?), increased emissions and all the problems that go along with it, plus a delay in the development in alternative fuels that we desperately need?
That's incredibly short-sighted.

While I agree that it is incredibly short-sighted, it is nonsense to say that we desperately need alternative fuels. Procurement of oil from oil shale is hundreds of times closer than any kind of economically feasible alternative fuel, and America happens to have some of the largest oil shale deposits in the world. Higher prices will make research into it economically viable, and we will eventually become net exporters of oil as other nations' wells dry up. It also means that people will not have to buy new cars and that new infrastructure will not have to be produced for the distribution of alternative fuels, both of which are a huge economic benefit.

I would then begin bashing global warming as the gospel of environmentalists and those who believe in, rather than think about, science, but I think I'll leave that for some thread where it makes sense for it to be included.

There's not near enough vegetable oil to go around. And that wouldn't really end up being too different from corn ethanol, which isn't a long term solution either.

I dont see why its not...If you implement it gradually...say, Have Corn Farmers store part of their crop every year, the part they already sell off for ethanol, and give subsidies for compensation, so the price of corn doesnt go up, then give subsidies to gas station owners for putting in Ethanol pumps in their stores...

then give subsidies to Car Companies to begin making Ethanol cars and gradually phasing Gas Powered cars out of the market...

Then, in say 8 to 16 years, release all the stored Ethanol, and the corn farmers then begin selling part of their crops for fuel, and to keep food prices down, reroute the already existing Farmers subsidies towards keeping the food price down...

It sounds like alot of subsidies, but reroute some funds and i think itd be affordable...

And there you go, Cheap, Renewable, Clean Energy...

I would then begin bashing global warming as the gospel of environmentalists and those who believe in, rather than think about, science, but I think I'll leave that for some thread where it makes sense for it to be included.

and then we can shove our heads in the ground while we pay shitloads of money for no apparent reason whilest we destroy the earth...

W00T!!! lol

If The Government over there cuts the tax, i can guarentee you the greedy fat cat bastards at the oil companys will absorb the cut and increase prices at the pumps.

Put it this way.. the uk pays $10 a gallon for fuel. Despite being a smaller country, public transport in some areas is so poor (especially rural) that people have to drive cars.

Yet BP and the other main oil company dealing with the uk posted profits earlier this week in excess of £7 billion.

Thats an absolute shit load of money.

The worst news is, that despite whatevewr the american treasury/Government do, the world is heading for a rather large global recession. Everything is going to be blindingly expensive and were all going to be making less money.

Need your fuel, better start cutting out buying those computer games/take outs. renting dvds etc and if that doesn't work hoping and praying that a recession destroys the price of fuel..

Mumbai houses 13,662,885 people if the demand is there it can be done rather easy

Yes, but I think most people do not want to live in Mumbai.

and then we can shove our heads in the ground while we pay shitloads of money for no apparent reason whilest we destroy the earth...

W00T!!! lol

The price will decrease as the supply skyrockets. Basic, basic economics. It will especially decrease because it is produced within America and, as such, prices will not move as much due to currency inflation, the main cause of our current gas price "crisis."

The price will decrease as the supply skyrockets. Basic, basic economics. It will especially decrease because it is produced within America and, as such, prices will not move as much due to currency inflation, the main cause of our current gas price "crisis."

and when that "supply" runs out?...and when the carbon from that gas destroys the poles?

and when that "supply" runs out?...and when the carbon from that gas destroys the poles?

We adapt to live under new conditions 9those of tus that survive that is.)

Besides, im pretty sure a new ice age will happen before the poles melt entirely due primarily to the Gulf stream shutting down before the poles melt in their entirity...

Self balancing act and all that.

We adapt to live under new conditions 9those of tus that survive that is.)

Besides, im pretty sure a new ice age will happen before the poles melt entirely due primarily to the Gulf stream shutting down before the poles melt in their entirity...

Self balancing act and all that.

The question however is, if we dont bother to adapt before its too late, then who is going to survive?...

Or better yet, why not change now and stop it from happening at all? i guess theres just no challenge in that...:headbang:

and when that "supply" runs out?...and when the carbon from that gas destroys the poles?

Then we simply transition to another source of energy. Nothing really remarkable about that; it's no different from any other technological transition in the past. Now, it may be a wise move to encourage alternatives to prevent the damage of continued carbon emissions, but the actual economic side does not require proactive action in regard to dependence on fossil fuels. Peak oil will happen, but it's not TEOWAWKI or any of the other apocalyptic fantasizing that comes from whackjobs like Duncan or Kunstler...compared their insanity with the saner voices like Deffeyes and Simmons, who actually have some knowledge of the industry and the reality of the world energy situation.

That being said, waiving the gas tax is idiocy. How do you fund highway and road maintenance without it? Magic? Or perhaps we'll print money to do it and just worsen the problem further. A far wiser move would be to provide a large tax deduction for purchasing more fuel-efficient vehicles; if people didn't drive huge, wasteful vehicles as much as they do now, oil demand would be lower helping to reduce prices and they would be far less vulnerable to increases in oil prices when they occur.

This is stupid, short-sighted vote-buying at its worst and a clear sign that our Presidential candidates lack a fundamental understanding of energy at a time when it is most important. Thank God Obama at least opposes it.

Then we simply transition to another source of energy. Nothing really remarkable about that; it's no different from any other technological transition in the past. Now, it may be a wise move to encourage alternatives to prevent the damage of continued carbon emissions, but the actual economic side does not require proactive action in regard to dependence on fossil fuels.

That being said, waiving the gas tax is idiocy. How do you fund highway and road maintenance without it? Magic? Or perhaps we'll print money to do it and just worsen the problem further. A far wiser move would be to provide a large tax deduction for purchasing more fuel-efficient vehicles; if people didn't drive huge, wasteful vehicles as much as they do now, oil demand would be lower helping to reduce prices and they would be far less vulnerable to increases in oil prices when they occur.

This is stupid, short-sighted vote-buying at its worst and a clear sign that our Presidential candidates lack a fundamental understanding of energy at a time when it is most important. Thank God Obama at least opposes it.

You know, it's just crazy enough to work...or at least, win votes.

Vote New Limacon!
The Magic Candidate

Then we simply transition to another source of energy. Nothing really remarkable about that; it's no different from any other technological transition in the past. Now, it may be a wise move to encourage alternatives to prevent the damage of continued carbon emissions, but the actual economic side does not require proactive action in regard to dependence on fossil fuels.



Well, id probably agree with that, but i was responding to a post that just wanted to blindly keep going the way we are...

I dont think its possible to continue doing that without Catastrophe...

Not to mention, the ordinary rules of Supply and Demand dont actually apply to Big Oil, since the markets based on Speculation, and NOBODY would ever purposely speculate something thats going to lose them money...

We have to get off Oil, because these companies have Raped our Economic system to the point that they simply cannot be allowed to continue existing as they have...

I dont see why its not...If you implement it gradually...say, Have Corn Farmers store part of their crop every year, the part they already sell off for ethanol, and give subsidies for compensation, so the price of corn doesnt go up, then give subsidies to gas station owners for putting in Ethanol pumps in their stores...

then give subsidies to Car Companies to begin making Ethanol cars and gradually phasing Gas Powered cars out of the market...

Then, in say 8 to 16 years, release all the stored Ethanol, and the corn farmers then begin selling part of their crops for fuel, and to keep food prices down, reroute the already existing Farmers subsidies towards keeping the food price down...

It sounds like alot of subsidies, but reroute some funds and i think itd be affordable...

And there you go, Cheap, Renewable, Clean Energy...
Well, if you can convince all the massive corporate farmers out there to suddenly become morally responsible (I'm not blaming them, being responsible normally doesn't equal making money) and assuming that the corn wouldn't rot or anything, I guess this could work (you'd also have to subsidize those farms for the massive amounts of money that they'd be losing, much more than the current levels of subsidies). From everything I've heard though corn ethanol seems like a band-aid at most, better than crude, but not a long term solution (especially since you still need oil to produce it).

Taxes on gas should remain so that people stop being stupid and start using less gas.

Well, if you can convince all the massive corporate farmers out there to suddenly become morally responsible

Well, im not saying theyre better than the Oil Companies, just easier to control, due to the fact that the farm market is still governed by supply and demand...

and the rest are valid points, im not saying there wouldnt be problems with Ethanol, just that i think its the best way to go...

there is no all around 'good' fuel...I just think that Ethanol is the least of several evils, and the best way to go overall...

EDIT: OH, and I should have worded that better, i was thinking youd store that part of the Corn Crop as Ethanol, so it wouldnt rot...

You know, it's just crazy enough to work...or at least, win votes.

Vote New Limacon!
The Magic Candidate

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/ivoted.gif

Magic, please. *holds out hand*

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/avatars/ivoted.gif

Magic, please. *holds out hand*

You'll have to wait until my inauguration. Then I will reveal my magic plan for energy independence, my magic plan for winning in Iraq, and my magic plan for giving everyone in America perfectly white, straight teeth.

No, this wont do jack shit. Its just McCain making it look like he's solving a problem while still pandering to and humoring American Oil companies.

No, this wont do jack shit. Its just McCain making it look like he's solving a problem while still pandering to and humoring American Oil companies.
I think it was Clinton's idea, actually.

I think it was Clinton's idea, actually.

Nah, she just jumped on the bandwagon. McCain supported it first, I'm pretty sure.

I think it was Clinton's idea, actually.

Wouldnt suprise me. But I know McCain has been the one talking about it the most. He talks about it instead of his ideas on alternate energy. In fact, I dont even think he has a plan on alternate energy.

Nah, she just jumped on the bandwagon. McCain supported it first, I'm pretty sure.

Wouldnt suprise me. But I know McCain has been the one talking about it the most. He talks about it instead of his ideas on alternate energy. In fact, I dont even think he has a plan on alternate energy.

I looked it up and you're right, it was McCain's idea first. I heard part of a speech by Clinton, which is why I thought it was hers.

I looked it up and you're right, it was McCain's idea first. I heard part of a speech by Clinton, which is why I thought it was hers.

Its idiotic and pandering enough to be hers. So I dont blame you.

The real problem isn't the gas prices, it's what those prices mean and that is that we're running out. Let's face facts, even if gas was still cheap we'd still have a major environmental problem on our hands. This horrid pump price could be a blessing in disguise. If we continue on oil for another hundred years, less than that even and the planet is going to fight back. All this economic preasure is finally going to fix an enviromental problem that should have received real attention long before this. We need to stop depending on oil, entirely. We need solar power, hydro electric power, hydrogen power, something else, something clean. My biggest fear is that bio diesal will go through and then we'll just stall the problem for longer. Bio diesal is not a whole lot better for the planet. We need clean fuel sources that are cost efficient and we need them now.

a proposal has been made to help the american public by removing the tax on gasoline over the summer. all 18 cents of it.

do you think this is a good idea?

I think my kid figured out it will save me all of $15. I think it's a stupid idea.

Yeah, more to the point, I think this gas tax could be put to a better use, people already pay city and state taxes that are supposed to handle Infrastructure...

It should be used to get an Alternative Fuel System implemented in the US...

Not to mention, the ordinary rules of Supply and Demand dont actually apply to Big Oil, since the markets based on Speculation, and NOBODY would ever purposely speculate something thats going to lose them money..

Speculation is a market force. It's basically betting on risk, with just as much downside as there is upside (if you look at the history of oil prices, there have been some very painful crashes in prices).

Speculation is a market force. It's basically betting on risk, with just as much downside as there is upside (if you look at the history of oil prices, there have been some very painful crashes in prices).

yes, but Oil Companies Abuse that market force to the point that Supply and Demand no longer apply, simply whatever makes more money for the company itself...

and since there is no competing fuel source besides Oil, nothing can stop them unless, we switch to an Alternative Fuel...

yes, but Oil Companies Abuse that market force to the point that Supply and Demand no longer apply, simply whatever makes more money for the company itself...

But demand for oil clearly is flexible. Besides, the oil companies have so little market share that they can't alter the price of oil materially; ExxonMobil, the biggest public oil company in the world only controls 3% of the market. It's the state owned companies like Saudi Aramco or others that are the real source of market manipulation...governments are to blame, not the free-market oil companies like Exxon or BP.

yeah, but that 3% is more than half Americas Fuel...

Besides, the best way to stop Saudi Aramco is to stop using their product...and the best way to stop using Oil, is to use something else...

Put interest rates up, that'll take care of it.

Gas is still cheaper in USA than many other countries. And average mpg is lower too.

I am in favor of increasing gas taxes in the USA. That money should go for MRTS and research for renewable energy etc.

In fact, it should be increased to $8.

yeah, but that 3% is more than half Americas Fuel...

Besides, the best way to stop Saudi Aramco is to stop using their product...and the best way to stop using Oil, is to use something else...

No it's not. 3% is only 2.58 million bpd, which even if all of it was used by Exxon for US gasoline would only represent a 29% share of the market. While that would certainly be large, it's nowhere near monopoly control over the market.

That being said, we do need to consume less oil. I agree 100% with you there.

Put interest rates up, that'll take care of it.

Rather likely. I have a feeling Bernanke doesn't plan to cut rates any further, and personally I would begin hiking them before the year is out. We may need another dose of Volcker-eqsue policies to bring an end to this new period of elevated inflation.

Wouldnt suprise me. But I know McCain has been the one talking about it the most. He talks about it instead of his ideas on alternate energy. In fact, I dont even think he has a plan on alternate energy.

He thinks it is energy from an alternator.

Gas is still cheaper in USA than many other countries. And average mpg is lower too.

I am in favor of increasing gas taxes in the USA. That money should go for MRTS and research for renewable energy etc.

In fact, it should be increased to $8.

no, Although i do think that gas taxes should go to researching renewable energy...

Increasing the Price, and Increasing the financial woes of the masses is definitely NOT the answer...

Some people, like myself, live in an area where you cant get from place to place without a Car...I dont have the land or the Money to feed a Horse...

It's almost $10 a gallon in the UK. Americans need to consider cutting down on the amount of gas they use.

Indeed, but have you seen the price of gas in places like Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, etc.? While it may be more expensive in other places around the world, you would think the world's largest importer would cost less simply because of the volume they import and the lowered cost of shipping mass amounts to one place. I'm not saying it should be Venezuela cheap, but Jeez. With that being said, we need to get the most fuel efficiency out of our gasoline cars now and work hastily to use clean fuels. Breaking ties with oil will be a grand day for our wallets and the environment.

Rather likely. I have a feeling Bernanke doesn't plan to cut rates any further, and personally I would begin hiking them before the year is out. We may need another dose of Volcker-eqsue policies to bring an end to this new period of elevated inflation.

I get the feeling that is the plan. They need to start working on the Dollar and inflation. No more rate cuts hopefully for a long long time.

Rather likely. I have a feeling Bernanke doesn't plan to cut rates any further, and personally I would begin hiking them before the year is out. We may need another dose of Volcker-eqsue policies to bring an end to this new period of elevated inflation.

I think he will cut again. The way the Fed dealt with the 'rogue' trader at Soc Gen should really tell everyone where their head is at right now.

Maybe people will think about not living so far away from their jobs or maybe they'll vote for people who promise improved public transportation. It won't happen by magic.

Have you taken time to look at a map of the US? While our states are as big, or bigger, than most nations we're in a slightly different situation here. it would be great if we could have an awesome public transport system like they have in Europe where you can ride the train anywhere. This is not pragmatic in the US.

Gas is still cheaper in USA than many other countries. And average mpg is lower too.

I am in favor of increasing gas taxes in the USA. That money should go for MRTS and research for renewable energy etc.

In fact, it should be increased to $8.

Raising it like that would be a massive shock to the economy. Slowly introducing new taxes would be better than a massive tax hike on fuel. Also just because it may be cheaper than Europe for example doesn't mean we should be matching them. The population density's and mass transit are very different compared the the US.

I am in support of regulating the oil market in the US. This reminds me of an Enronesque scam going on. Speculators at this moment are a threat to national security I believe.

I would personally love it, of course, but the budget is stretched thin enough as it is. They take away the gas tax and... I don't know, kids will have to copy down textbooks by hand from a master copy. With their own blood.

Have you taken time to look at a map of the US? While our states are as big, or bigger, than most nations we're in a slightly different situation here. it would be great if we could have an awesome public transport system like they have in Europe where you can ride the train anywhere. This is not pragmatic in the US.

I think most that are from small nations and not been through out the US have really no idea of the size of the nation. Even some Americans don't have a true sense of how big America is.

I would personally love it, of course, but the budget is stretched thin enough as it is. They take away the gas tax and... I don't know, kids will have to copy down textbooks by hand from a master copy. With their own blood.

It would be the same scam really as the tax rebate checks. You still pay in the end.

It would be the same scam really as the tax rebate checks. You still pay in the end.

REAGANOMICS!!!

I am in support of regulating the oil market in the US. This reminds me of an Enronesque scam going on. Speculators at this moment are a threat to national security I believe.

It's really too big to manipulate unless you are OPEC or something. Thing of it is there is a scarcity mentality going on (what with things like Russia dropping production) to everyone is jumping on the trade. And it's not like they don't bear the downside risk, so everything evens out. (Unlike housing speculation, where profits seem to be private and losses socialized apparently).

Gas is still cheaper in USA than many other countries. And average mpg is lower too.

I am in favor of increasing gas taxes in the USA. That money should go for MRTS and research for renewable energy etc.

In fact, it should be increased to $8.

People couldn't do shit with 8 dollar gas. It would be hard to eat with 8 dollar a gallon gas.

I need a car where I live. It as simple as that. I don't think I could afford 8 dollar a gallon gas.

People couldn't do shit with 8 dollar gas. It be hard to eat with 8 dollar a gallon gas.

Itd be hard to acquire Food to think about possibly eating it with $8 gas...

8$ a gallon would be a triple whammy at least, the transportation of the goods to market would produce much higher prices, it would take more to produce the goods themselves, and it would cost more for the consumer to get to market and buy them. With all this increase in price, inflation would increase and we'd need even more money to pay for things. In short, the entire economy would be fucked. I think it's a bad idea.

Itd be hard to acquire Food to think about possibly eating it with $8 gas...

Exactly.

I dont see why its not...If you implement it gradually...say, Have Corn Farmers store part of their crop every year, the part they already sell off for ethanol, and give subsidies for compensation, so the price of corn doesnt go up, then give subsidies to gas station owners for putting in Ethanol pumps in their stores...

then give subsidies to Car Companies to begin making Ethanol cars and gradually phasing Gas Powered cars out of the market...

Then, in say 8 to 16 years, release all the stored Ethanol, and the corn farmers then begin selling part of their crops for fuel, and to keep food prices down, reroute the already existing Farmers subsidies towards keeping the food price down...

It sounds like alot of subsidies, but reroute some funds and i think itd be affordable...

And there you go, Cheap, Renewable, Clean Energy...

Further restricting the supply of corn (by taking some for storage) would drive the price higher. Subsidizing the corn does not make it any cheaper, you just force everyone to pay more in taxes for the corn so those who want to eat it pay less than the real cost. Every gas station I've seen in the last decade has had ethanol mixed in already - it can be up to 15% without harming a normal engine, and cars sold in the US for a few years have 'flex fuel' engines that can burn higher mixes. If you look closely at the fuel pump, you will most likely see a little sticker somewhere that says 'fuel contains ethanol'.

The third paragraph makes no sense whatsoever.

Furthermore, corn ethanol is a bad fuel. It has much lower energy per gallon than gasoline, is considerably more expensive, and actually releases more carbon into the atmosphere than gasoline (if you consider the full fuel cycle - just taking CO2 emissions from combustion is very disingenuous).

Ethanol is a bad fuel and exists as nothing more than a blatant payoff to the corn lobby. The Iowa primary keeps this bribe for political support going. Were ethanol really a legitimate 'alternative', it would be made from cane sugar and there would not be high tariffs imposed on importing ethanol from Brazil (where it is actually economical to produce, because they do it from sugar, not corn).

The removal of the gas tax is blatant election year attempt at buying votes. It will have no significant economic effect, except to reduce the amount of money spent on maintaining infrastructure.

Im not trying to end Global Warming, im trying to end OPECs dictatorship of America...


and, im not saying raise the taxes, im saying rearrange Funds to provide subsidies...Do we really need to know the DNA of Bears? or Teach rats to use rakes to move food?...

and 15% isnt enough, we need to be rid of Oil entirely, and Ethanol is the one closest to doing that...

And, sugar wouldnt be a bad move, but Corn is what we mainly grow in the US, and so it would seem the best route for Energy Independence...

no, Although i do think that gas taxes should go to researching renewable energy...

Increasing the Price, and Increasing the financial woes of the masses is definitely NOT the answer...

Some people, like myself, live in an area where you cant get from place to place without a Car...I dont have the land or the Money to feed a Horse...

CARPOOL.

At $8/g you will find it really easy to do that.

CARPOOL.

At $8/g you will find it really easy to do that.

Yeeeah...see, that requires an organized Carpool...difficult to do when everyone has different schedules, destinations, etc.....Its not going to happen...Even if i managed to do it...

Its not going to be significant enough to make an impact....the Fuel Crisis must be solved from the other end, its not happening from the Ground Up...

CARPOOL.

At $8/g you will find it really easy to do that.

This will help some of the problem, but it won't solve anything. There are just too many times when people need to go different places at different times, and the logistics of arranging carpools for those people would be immense (especially outside of heavy metropolitan areas).

Yeeeah...see, that requires an organized Carpool...difficult to do when everyone has different schedules, destinations, etc.....Its not going to happen...Even if i managed to do it...

Its not going to be significant enough to make an impact....the Fuel Crisis must be solved from the other end, its not happening from the Ground Up...

aww mann... you beat me to the punch. :(

People couldn't do shit with 8 dollar gas. It would be hard to eat with 8 dollar a gallon gas.

I need a car where I live. It as simple as that. I don't think I could afford 8 dollar a gallon gas.

People actually do shit elsewhere in the world with high gas prices.

If you need a car, pay the money. Minimize your trips. Do Carpool. Try cycling to closer trips. Get a smaller car with better gas mileage instead of a gas guzzler. Telecommute once a while. Get your neighbour to pick up stuff. Pick up stuff for your neighbour.

You can do whole lot of things like that. But you will do that only when it fucking hurts your pocket.

I have no sympathy for those addicted to oil and demand cheap prices as if its a birthright.

aww mann... you beat me to the punch. :(

Yours is probably better worded...

But, I's must gets to da Sleepin, lol...Night all, enjoyed discussing the Fuel Economy...

This will help some of the problem, but it won't solve anything. There are just too many times when people need to go different places at different times, and the logistics of arranging carpools for those people would be immense (especially outside of heavy metropolitan areas).

Where there is a will, there is a way. At higher gas prices, necessity will force people to get their schedules worked out.

This will help some of the problem, but it won't solve anything. There are just too many times when people need to go different places at different times, and the logistics of arranging carpools for those people would be immense (especially outside of heavy metropolitan areas).

And taking tax away / reducing gas prices temporarily solves what?

CARPOOL.

At $8/g you will find it really easy to do that.

Dude...

People are not going to car pool everywhere.

I car pool for lots of things...movies, shopping, concerts, hanging out. Now I can cut out some of those things...but I'm not going to just stay at home and do nothing besides work.

I can't really carpool to work or school though.

And I'm not gonna carpool with people I don't know.

You have no comprehension of the US do you?

People actually do shit elsewhere in the world with high gas prices.

If you need a car, pay the money. Minimize your trips. Do Carpool. Try cycling to closer trips. Get a smaller car with better gas mileage instead of a gas guzzler. Telecommute once a while. Get your neighbour to pick up stuff. Pick up stuff for your neighbour.

You can do whole lot of things like that. But you will do that only when it fucking hurts your pocket.

I have no sympathy for those addicted to oil and demand cheap prices as if its a birthright.
You have no idea what their situation is, don't make so many assumptions. We all know that there are ways to reduce dependency, but for some people in some situations, it's just not possible to change their usage and gas prices that high would destroy them. Not everybody is made of money.

I have no sympathy for those addicted to oil and demand cheap prices as if its a birthright.

Was going to stop posting...but, honestly, We're not addicted to Oil, i hate that statement, its stupid...


Some dont live in an area that is dense enough to cycle places, and its not Oil that we're 'addicted' to, its the fact that A) people dont have the land or money to own Horses, and B) Schedules and this fancy concept called WORK demand that we have reliable transportation available at all times...

The answer isnt stopping personal Transportation altogether, its changing the Fuel with which it is powered....

Same as Electricity's not going away, neither is the Car, the fuel that powers these things MUST be changed, and it CAN be done, if it is implemented properly, and expediently...

Good Night...

And taking tax away / reducing gas prices temporarily solves what?

I never said that it'd solve anything. Jesus, read some of the thread before you assign viewpoints to people. I don't think it's a good idea. I also don't think it's a good idea to take away all the safeguards that the US has built into its economy to keep the gas prices down. 8$ a gallon would demolish the US economy, we need to find a different way out of this than just fucking around with the pricing(that much should have been abundantly clear when we found out that oil will eventually run dry).

People actually do shit elsewhere in the world with high gas prices.

If you need a car, pay the money. Minimize your trips. Do Carpool. Try cycling to closer trips. Get a smaller car with better gas mileage instead of a gas guzzler. Telecommute once a while. Get your neighbour to pick up stuff. Pick up stuff for your neighbour.

You can do whole lot of things like that. But you will do that only when it fucking hurts your pocket.

I have no sympathy for those addicted to oil and demand cheap prices as if its a birthright.

The rest of the world isn't as spread out as the US now is it?

Now I agree that people can start combining trips with their neighbors, and carpooling when necessary, though. However much that'll suck.

Telecommute? Like video conferences and stuff?

Oh wait, I have an idea. Why don't we just parcel out all the arable land on Earth and return to subsistence farming? Transportation problem solved! We won't even have to deal with the whole oil pricing crisis.

Oh wait, I have an idea. Why don't we just parcel out all the arable land on Earth and return to subsistence farming? Transportation problem solved! We won't even have to deal with the whole oil pricing crisis.

I'd rather hunt and gather, personally.

Telecommute? Like video conferences and stuff?

Yeah, because as you know, everybody has a job that will allow them to do that. Especially factory workers, air traffic controllers, police, y'know they don't actually need to be there.

I'd rather hunt and gather, personally.

Or we could go all Matrix and just hook up feeding tubes! Oh wait, that takes electricity, doesn't it?

Yeah, because as you know, everybody has a job that will allow them to do that. Especially factory workers, air traffic controllers, police, y'know they don't actually need to be there.

Lol yeah. That would totally work for my job...NOT!

Or we could go all Matrix and just hook up feeding tubes! Oh wait, that takes electricity, doesn't it?

I very idea of the matrix, so, naaaaaaaaaah. I'll pass on that one!

Leave the tax in place, add an additional 5c/gal to fuel tax at a federal level. This would yield approx. $7.5bln per year in revenues. This money is ring fenced for improvements in public transport infrastructure, i.e., developing a passenger rail (as in a system that actually works, and focusing on fully integrated urban and suburban transport systems that are actually usable, and not merely token gestures) Contrary to popular myths in the US, many studies have been conducted into the issue and feasible and reasonably affordable options exist, but have never been followed through, or crippled either intentionally or through incompetent management.

The fact that in the "world's most developed country" I couldn't get from Seattle to Tacoma by train and back in a day (a distance of 50 miles max) when I last visited, is ridiculous. Third world countries have better infrastructure than this.

Reducing the tax to prop up an inherently inefficient infrastructure is unwise. All this will do is stimulate demand and put more demands on an unsustainable setup. The whole geographic distribution argument is merely an excuse for sub standard government performance in addressing the problems. The US is a large country but most people are not driving right across it. In fact the vast majority of the population live within a few relatively small highly populated regions. Most trips in America by individuals on the roads are either within a city or between nearby cities. This is no different to elsewhere, and whilst cities in the US tend to be spread out, you are not the only country in the world with this same pattern.

US gas is the cheapest in the western world. The sky isn't going to fall in even if the prices doubled. In fact, it'd probably do the system some good since it would force a mindset change that would make the country stronger in the long run. For a nation that is almost paranoid about buying oil from teh ebil terrorists, it seems completely unwilling to actually do anything about it.

All you Europeans just don't fucking get it.

Its a pain in the ass to pay for gas now.

Many of us simply couldn't afford it at double what it is right now.

There is no alternative besides driving in many areas of the country.

That is why we bitch about fuel prices, even if they are low compared to your prices (which are taxed the hell out of as your all evil socialists).

Until there is a viable alternative to driving, we'll keep on bitching about prices. If there is an actual plan for creating effective public transportation, I'll be voting for it.

However, not every town can be connected to the railroad. So there will always be a need for some type of personal transport- especially in rural areas.

All you Europeans just don't fucking get it.

Its a pain in the ass to pay for gas now.

Many of us simply couldn't afford it at double what it is right now.

There is no alternative besides driving in many areas of the country.

That is why we bitch about fuel prices, even if they are low compared to your prices (which are taxed the hell out of as your all evil socialists).

Until there is a viable alternative to driving, we'll keep on bitching about prices. If there is an actual plan for creating effective public transportation, I'll be voting for it.

However, not every town can be connected to the railroad. So there will always be a need for some type of personal transport- especially in rural areas.

Wow that was offensive.

As one of the 'Europeans' you are complaining about I'd like to remind you of this.

Our English gallon is costing £5 at the moment (or near enough) which is about $10 and is constantly rising fortnight after fortnight. The english gallon is around 1.201 of an american gallon. This makes your petrol a lot cheaper regardless of what you say.

Our prices have not stopped rising since September and many families are struggling to keep their cars - your country is not the only one with people who couldn't afford to pay double so there is no need to jump down our throats and out the otherside.

Last time I checked I wasn't an evil socialist either. I got born with the government I have and although I can now vote I still have to wait for the next election to put my own opinion up.

And to just explain to you - I live in a rural area with plenty of isolated people. It's actually part of my job to arrange transport for these people.

In other words don't yell before you can talk.

Leave the tax in place, add an additional 5c/gal to fuel tax at a federal level. This would yield approx. $7.5bln per year in revenues. This money is ring fenced for improvements in public transport infrastructure, i.e., developing a passenger rail (as in a system that actually works, and focusing on fully integrated urban and suburban transport systems that are actually usable, and not merely token gestures. Contrary to popular myths in the US, many studies have been conducted into the issue and feasible and reasonably affordable options exist, but have never been followed through, or crippled either intentionally or through incompetent management.

The fact that in the "world's most developed country" I couldn't get from Seattle to Tacoma by train and back in a day (a distance of 50 miles max) when I last visited, is ridiculous. Third world countries have better infrastructure than this.

Reducing the tax to prop up an inherently inefficient infrastructure is unwise. All this will do is stimulate demand and put more demands on an unsustainable setup. The whole geographic distribution argument is merely an excuse for sub standard government performance in addressing the problems. The US is a large country but most people are not driving right across it. In fact the vast majority of the population live within a few relatively small highly populated regions. Most trips in America by individuals on the roads are either within a city or between nearby cities. This is no different to elsewhere, and whilst cities in the US tend to be spread out, you are not the only country in the world with this same pattern.

US gas is the cheapest in the western world. The sky isn't going to fall in even if the prices doubled. In fact, it'd probably do the system some good since it would force a mindset change that would make the country stronger in the long run. For a nation that is almost paranoid about buying oil from teh ebil terrorists, it seems completely unwilling to actually do anything to do anything about it.

Now, I'm not saying that we have a good infrastructure by any stretch of the imagination, but saying that it doesn't work, or that third world countries have "better" infrastructures is uncalled for.

Our infrastructure works, and works quite well for most of the people who use it. The first thing that we think about is where we need to build up our infrastructure, and since the northwest isn't as populated as, say, the atlantic seaboard, there isn't going to be as much being built there. We don't have a socialist government here, so it is up to business people here to build light rail and other public transport systems in places where they will be feasible (or up to the state/local government when they see enough of a benefit).

Almost everybody in this country has a car, so the need for public transportation only really arises in urban areas. Our infrastructure reflects that, besides the fact that our urban centers are different from yours. They are more spread out, they were not developed with the limitations that yours were (namely that the streets were too narrow to fit a lot of cars), and now that we do need to restructure them it would be necessary to change the face of those cities (something that is difficult for people to understand, but will eventually happen). Now, there may be other cities in the world that are spread out over a large area, but I can't think of any that were built in the same conditions that the US cities were. I know that Tokyo is sprawling, but it was built with massive populations living in the city center, so the need for efficient public transportation was immediately apparent. If you have any other examples of spread out cities in developed countries, I'd be interested to hear how they have dealt with this issue on their own.

And as for your statement that the economy will be just fine if the gas prices doubled, do some research before you say something like that. Most of our economy is based on trucks moving goods from the production centers (which use energy to produce the goods at some point) to the market, where consumers are going to be using gas to get their goods. The raise in gas prices would hit all parts of the economy at once, and produce a shock that would severely affect, if not cripple the economy. Now, I understand that you wouldn't care, but you also don't have to worry about transporting your goods long distances before they get to where they're going because you have a small country.

Anyway, once again I'm not saying that we have a perfect system, but the whole "do what europe's doing" approach just won't work in the US, they're two different animals.

I say we should just fine each oil company annually until they build more refineries.

They won't build them any other way because as long as there aren't enough, the supply is low so they can charge what they want.

I mean why would they build something that costs money, that will actually lower their profits.

I say we should just fine each oil company annually until they build more refineries.

They won't build them any other way because as long as there aren't enough, the supply is low so they can charge what they want.

I mean why would they build something that costs money, that will actually lower their profits.

Sounds good to me. If we can just get them out of bed with Congress, I'd say this would solve a lot of the problem.

People who make lots of money have a lot of power in US society. Therefore, the oil companies have a lot of power. Therefore, the US government is going to do absolutely nothing that would annoy the oil companies. People who think the US government are going to step in and change the situation are being foolish. They would have more luck waiting for cold fusion.

The price of oil and gasoline will continue to rise. Therefore it makes economic sense to organise yourselves so that you minimise your dependence on it. This is true on an individual level as well as a national level.

Oil and gas combustion have adverse environmental effects. Therefore, you laso have ecological reasons to minimise consumption. Despite that, I don't think this will actually sway US policy in any significant manner.

Fossil fuel combustion has been directly linked to respiratory maladies in children. Therefore, you have health reasons to minimise consumption.

Obviously the oil companies and the government are not making any attempt to change the situation. If USians want to save their savings, environment, and health, I strongly suggest they start weaning themselves from oil at the individual level.

And as for your statement that the economy will be just fine if the gas prices doubled, do some research before you say something like that. Most of our economy is based on trucks moving goods from the production centers (which use energy to produce the goods at some point) to the market, where consumers are going to be using gas to get their goods. The raise in gas prices would hit all parts of the economy at once, and produce a shock that would severely affect, if not cripple the economy. Now, I understand that you wouldn't care, but you also don't have to worry about transporting your goods long distances before they get to where they're going because you have a small country.



Disclosure: I am a trucker.

Raising the fuel price to a European level ($7-8 / gallon) would not cause any of us to drive differently. I already drive slower than the speed limit in most states I pass through, and our company has benn investing in furl saving devices like APU's. What it would do is cause us to pass along the ENTIRE cost of the fuel (an extra 60-70 cents / mile, based on getting 6.0 mpg which is average) to the shippers of the goods. They will pass that costs along to you the consumer. And when you consider that along with the fact that this is a massive country (my last run was 1700 miles), you're going to find a large increase in cost for everything, causing a depression.

As far as infrastructure and passenger rail. I live in a small town in North Alabama (35,000 people) With all of the myriad directions that I would have to go to do certain things, I think a rail system wouldn't be flexible enough for most Americans. Using the most cost efficient system of hub & spoke just to get from here to the nearest sports game would require at least 2 trains and 4-5 hours of riding, compared to 2 hours in a car.

I say we should just fine each oil company annually until they build more refineries.

They won't build them any other way because as long as there aren't enough, the supply is low so they can charge what they want.

I mean why would they build something that costs money, that will actually lower their profits.

They can't build new refineries because environmentalists and NIMBY people don't want them to. A single new refinery near Yuma has been in the works for ten years and has yet to break ground thanks to all of the bureaucracy and interference in the process.

All fining them would do is drive companies out of the United States and make us even more dependent on imports from other countries. They're not the ones to blame for the lack of new refineries (although additions at existing plants have added over 2 million bpd of capacity).

a proposal has been made to help the american public by removing the tax on gasoline over the summer. all 18 cents of it.

do you think this is a good idea?

I think it's ironic that the government subsidizes gas and then taxes us on it.

$4.00/gal seems like a lot, but compared to Europe (where I don't think it's subsidized) where it's $7-$8 a gallon, we're getting off easy (we won't talk about what's charged in most Islamic Middle Eastern countries, but it's under a dollar a gallon).

I drive an economy car. I fill up once a month to the tune of @ $35-$40 (I have a 12 gallon tank), dropping the tax will save me what, about $2?

Keep it where it is. You won't save much and there is no guarantee that the consumer will reap the benefit anyhow.

I think it's ironic that the government subsidizes gas and then taxes us on it.

$4.00/gal seems like a lot, but compared to Europe (where I don't think it's subsidized) where it's $7-$8 a gallon, we're getting off easy (we won't talk about what's charged in most Islamic Middle Eastern countries, but it's under a dollar a gallon).

I drive an economy car. I fill up once a month to the tune of @ $35-$40 (I have a 12 gallon tank), dropping the tax will save me what, about $2?

It'll save my company roughly $680 / day. Not much though when you consider that we'll spend roughly $40,000,000 on fuel this year.

Hmmm stimulate the economy by keeping more cash flowing, limiting Government revenue, thus forcing it to spend less...

Yep, sounds like a good idea to me.

I think it's ironic that the government subsidizes gas and then taxes us on it.

$4.00/gal seems like a lot, but compared to Europe (where I don't think it's subsidized) where it's $7-$8 a gallon, we're getting off easy (we won't talk about what's charged in most Islamic Middle Eastern countries, but it's under a dollar a gallon).

I drive an economy car. I fill up once a month to the tune of @ $35-$40 (I have a 12 gallon tank), dropping the tax will save me what, about $2?

And not just the Middle East, either. In Ecuador, where crude oil is harvested AND refined domestically, the gas is under $2.00/gal. This in a country whose domestic economy was so weak they use the U.S. Dollar as the national currency now.

I don't know about you, but our minivan has a 25 gallon tank which means an 18 cent reduction in gas price would save me about $4.50 per trip, which happens about once every 10 days.

You have no comprehension of the US do you?

You have no comprehension of peak oil.

Peak oil wins. Regardless of what your "needs" are.

Disclosure: I am a trucker.
.....They will pass that costs along to you the consumer. And when you consider that along with the fact that this is a massive country (my last run was 1700 miles), you're going to find a large increase in cost for everything, causing a depression....

Current business models of trucking items over long distances have to give way to more locally grown / built stuff. The idea of transporting water bottles, florida oranges to Seattle etc...are just not that necessary for normal living. Much of the items that we take for granted and have grown addicted to are not that important for a normal life (for me at least).

Again, these are the realities that we are facing if we don't get exchange oil dependency with an equivalent (price, performance, availability etc) energy source.

It is better if we bite the bullet now and look for restructuring things while we can instead of waiting for the inevitable peak oil and sky rocketing oil prices to make us panic later.

Added Later: that's why I am against any govt sponsored lowering of oil prices to "ease the pain". It is classical "treating the symptoms and not the problem". The problem is STILL THERE and growing BIGGER.

Much like how some SUVs (with poor mpg) were sold last year with the offer for free gas for a year. Solves nothing and adds to the problem.

a proposal has been made to help the american public by removing the tax on gasoline over the summer. all 18 cents of it.

do you think this is a good idea?

Supposedly the gas tax pays for public roads, at least thats how the government justifies it. I don't think that the tax is actually used to do that, and considering how much we are taxed already, I am in favor of having one less tax.

Although, if the U.S. really wants to reduce the cost of gasoline, they should get rid of those silly ethanol mandates. Adding 10% Ethanol to gasoline makes it more expensive and reduces its efficiency by 5%.

YES, for fuck's sake. MOVE WHERE THE FUCKING JOB IS. If the neighborhood is not perfectly manicured, get off your ass. If the cops aren't doing their job, lobby the mayor! We have a responsibility as citizens to actually BE FUCKING CITIZENS and not just sit on our asses and complain.

If your area's a shit-hole, FIX IT. Get to know your neighbors (God forbid we should actually talk to people every so often) and straighten that shit out. What's the alternative? I can't stress this enough -- the days of cheap gas are bleeding well gone.

^winner.

The amreicans HAVE to change theri attitude, coz "gas" isnt going to get cheaper... look @ this:

http://www.petrolprices.com/fuel-tax.html

to put that into perspective, £1 is pretty much $2usd. and there are 3.8litres in a US gallon, so if you were over here you'd be paying DOUBLE your precious $4 a litre... of that 70% (infact i think its going up) is tax.

pay UK prices, THEN bitch.

To fill my car up, it'll cost me £70 tonight, but i'll get nearly 38mpg out of a 17 year old car that cost me £500 WITH 3 months tax AND 11months MOT( £50! (its gone up!) annual compolsory road test over here, if it fails its usually expensive...) my car isnt even that economical, i could have bought a small turbodiesel that'll get 65mpg in the same condition for the money, but i'm a VW nut, and wont commit heresy by owning a vauxhall...

*phew*

answer to high gas prices, use less.

Im not trying to end Global Warming, im trying to end OPECs dictatorship of America...


and, im not saying raise the taxes, im saying rearrange Funds to provide subsidies...Do we really need to know the DNA of Bears? or Teach rats to use rakes to move food?...

and 15% isnt enough, we need to be rid of Oil entirely, and Ethanol is the one closest to doing that...

And, sugar wouldnt be a bad move, but Corn is what we mainly grow in the US, and so it would seem the best route for Energy Independence...

Corn Ethanol is energy negative. It takes more energy to grow / transport / process 1 gallon of Ethanol or E85 than you get from the end result. Cellulosic Ethanol though, from waste and scrubgrasses is loking like win though.

Current business models of trucking items over long distances have to give way to more locally grown / built stuff. The idea of transporting water bottles, florida oranges to Seattle etc...are just not that necessary for normal living. Much of the items that we take for granted and have grown addicted to are not that important for a normal life (for me at least).



It's a little too late for that, don't you think? We don't really have a huge manufacturing base anymore to make all these products. The priduct I was transporting was water heaters(essential in S. Dakota/Iowa where I took them). We used to make them in Montgomery. Now they're made in Mexico.

The problem with locally grown/built items is that when you take away the one giant national factory/farm for items, you take away the economy of scale that you get from making the items there, and making them in bulk. So either way, you're probably going to get higher prices for things.

That might be what we need though to get us out of this buying binge that we as a country seem to be on. Oh well, I need to drive 600 miles and burn another 80-90 gallons of diesel before I sleep.

It's a little too late for that, don't you think? We don't really have a huge manufacturing base anymore to make all these products. The priduct I was transporting was water heaters(essential in S. Dakota/Iowa where I took them). We used to make them in Montgomery. Now they're made in Mexico.

The problem with locally grown/built items is that when you take away the one giant national factory/farm for items, you take away the economy of scale that you get from making the items there, and making them in bulk. So either way, you're probably going to get higher prices for things.

There is no choice. We may not like, but that is how things are going to be, whether we like it or not.

Eventually we will see closer supply chains...there is no alternative.

The price of stuff you see in a supermarket is a combination of very many factors...eventually people will figure a way to make things work...as they always have when they are forced to.

Drive safe. ;)

to put that into perspective, £1 is pretty much $2usd. and there are 3.8litres in a US gallon, so if you were over here you'd be paying DOUBLE your precious $4 a litre... of that 70% (infact i think its going up) is tax.

pay UK prices, THEN bitch.


I was over there and I did pay about $8/g (US terms). :p

It was a SAAB diesel. Gave me about 34 mpg (US terms again). Due to budget limitation, I took a decision to carpool the 5 consultants into two cars although they were all used to having each a car in the US.

They cribbed a bit, but they took it when I said they can have each a car if they pay for the gas from their pocket. ;)

I was over there and I did pay about $8/g (US terms). :p

It was a SAAB diesel. Gave me about 34 mpg (US terms again). Due to budget limitation, I took a decision to carpool the 5 consultants into two cars although they were all used to having each a car in the US.

They cribbed a bit, but they took it when I said they can have each a car if they pay for the gas from their pocket. ;)

OOh.. thats always the pincher...

Well, I did post earlier that between the two major suppliers to the UK there was £7 ($14) billion profit between them. i meesed up though.. that was for the 1st quater alone.. not the entire year :O

So we get taxed 70% and then line the fat cats pockets whilst those who need to use there cars due to poor public transport links suffer.

a proposal has been made to help the american public by removing the tax on gasoline over the summer. all 18 cents of it.

do you think this is a good idea?
Of course not.... Unless Congress cuts spending so that this doesn't leave a huge hole in the budget.

Like that would happen in an election year.

Of course not.... Unless Congress cuts spending so that this doesn't leave a huge hole in the budget.

Like that would happen in an election year.

would you really want the feds to cut road maintenence?

what about ms clinton's proposal to make up the loss of revenue with a windfall profits tax on oil companies? that would plug the hole.

The increasing gas prices has become absurd... I remember the time where gas 98 octanes was less than 1€ / L now it's almost or has already gotten to 1.5€ / L (50% increase) and i'm only 15... (going 16 this month, the 26th)

Well,another problem is an unrregulated FED devauling the dollar to oblivion. If they keep cutting rates and flooding the market with dollars, eventually the peso will be worth more than the dollar 3 fold.

Well,another problem is an unrregulated FED devauling the dollar to oblivion. If they keep cutting rates and flooding the market with dollars, eventually the peso will be worth more than the dollar 3 fold.

You Americans need to get your dollar back up, it's starting to mess up our economy too...

You Americans need to get your dollar back up, it's starting to mess up our economy too...

Forget it. If we're going down, we're taking the rest of the world with us. Sort of like an economic Doomsday Machine.

Well,another problem is an unrregulated FED devauling the dollar to oblivion. If they keep cutting rates and flooding the market with dollars, eventually the peso will be worth more than the dollar 3 fold.

I wonder if Americans will be doing landscaping in Mexican yards? As for the Dollar I think we are seeing the bottom fairly soon now.

The increasing gas prices has become absurd... I remember the time where gas 98 octanes was less than 1€ / L now it's almost or has already gotten to 1.5€ / L (50% increase) and i'm only 15... (going 16 this month, the 26th)

Lol, I remember gas at .35 cents a gallon or about .09 US cents a liter.

I wonder if Americans will be doing landscaping in Mexican yards? As for the Dollar I think we are seeing the bottom fairly soon now.

Ah, the Warren Harding "the worst is over" bit. I myself do not see anything that will perk up the dollar, at least anytime soon really.

Ah, the Warren Harding "the worst is over" bit. I myself do not see anything that will perk up the dollar, at least anytime soon really.

Bingo. Were heading for a major recession and these delaying measures are short sighted and will be damaging in the longrun...

The recession isn't nearly over, its merley just begun :(

Ah, the Warren Harding "the worst is over" bit. I myself do not see anything that will perk up the dollar, at least anytime soon really.

It will be interesting to see what the bursting commodity bubble will do to the dollar over the next few years. Those markets are becoming dangerously frothy, just like they were back in the mid-80's when the entire commodity complex just plain collapsed in the span of a couple of years. The end result was a 13-year secular bear market in commodities that only ended at the start of 1999 or thereabouts and has continued to the present.

I'm personally feeling 2009-2010 will be the big washout in commodities, both due to the weak economy and the massive speculative excess that has long since ripped them free of any basis on market fundamentals.

Lol, I remember gas at .35 cents a gallon or about .09 US cents a liter.

Dang...

The lowest I remember it being is .87 cents!

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

I sense lots of imminent weirdness on the horizon.

Dang...

The lowest I remember it being is .87 cents!

I remember an article in The Economist back in 1999 predicting $5/barrel oil during this period.

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro.

I sense lots of imminent weirdness on the horizon.Funny - i was ducking falling boxes and acting like they were bats today. Even said, "shit. Shiiiiiiiit!" each time. :)

Maybe people will think about not living so far away from their jobs or maybe they'll vote for people who promise improved public transportation. It won't happen by magic.

Bullshit. Some people don't have a choice as to where they work. You can't magically find a position that benefits you, and happened to live across the street from the place. The position itself could be in an area where one can't quite afford to live.

As for the public transportation scenario, certain cities (Detroit mainly) won't have the option in creating such a possibility, seeing as the city itself is falling apart, while our mayor takes out money from the city to buy his wife a brand new car, among other idiotic moves on his part.

Bullshit. Some people don't have a choice as to where they work. You can't magically find a position that benefits you, and happened to live across the street from the place. The position itself could be in an area where one can't quite afford to live.

As for the public transportation scenario, certain cities (Detroit mainly) won't have the option in creating such a possibility, seeing as the city itself is falling apart, while our mayor takes out money from the city to buy his wife a brand new car, among other idiotic moves on his part.

It's very much a case of won't rather than can't. Americans don't want public transportation and they don't want to make sacrifices to live closer to their jobs. Gas bills are the price you pay for that.

no one, certainly not the u.s., is going to BENNIFIT by eliminating or even lowering the tax on motor fuels. if anything it needs to be 100 or even 200 per cent, and the revinue thus raised, used to build a REAL transportaion infrastructure. one that's useful to everybody without their having to indenture themselves to the means of doing so.

=^^=
.../\...

Sounds good to me. If we can just get them out of bed with Congress, I'd say this would solve a lot of the problem.

Yeah the fact that this country is a Plutocracy the kind of shoots down that idea.

No, we need to get used to the fact that world oil prices are rising, never to come down again. The sooner we respond to that by building more fuel efficient, or alternative powered vehicles, the better. Removing the tax on petrol would actually be counter productive.

Lol, I remember gas at .35 cents a gallon or about .09 US cents a liter.
I think the discount places in Ohio were selling gas at a quarter a gallon as late as 1973. That's when putting $2 in the tank actually did some good.

would you really want the feds to cut road maintenence?

what about ms clinton's proposal to make up the loss of revenue with a windfall profits tax on oil companies? that would plug the hole.
I said cut spending. And the profits that the oil companies are making are not 'windfalls'. They are normal profits based on higher sales prices... The free market at work.

Are you suggesting the government should get into the oil business?

You Americans need to get your dollar back up, it's starting to mess up our economy too...
You know, my company sells quite a bit overseas. The lower dollar has really boosted sales. I'm not sure I want it to go back up too fast.

It's very much a case of won't rather than can't. Americans don't want public transportation and they don't want to make sacrifices to live closer to their jobs. Gas bills are the price you pay for that.

I think that we would use efficient public transportation, but unless you're in NYC, Boston or D.C. areas then it doesn't exist. Having lived in Atlanta (the sprawl capital of the South) people have moved closer to downtown, it's called gentrification. The 2 problems with this are;

1. All the poor black people you just bought out, have to move somewhere, and they already can't afford to move to the suburbs. That's why they were in the hood in the first place.

2. They just buy existing houses, and don't increase population density to the point where transit is feasible. The change in mindset (living on top of each other) will not happen unless there's no other fiscally workable choice for most people.

Notice the difference.
London: 7,512,400 people in the Metro area (the 32 boroughs) at mid 2006 estimate / 609 sq mi. (12,336 people/sq mi.)

Atlanta: 5,278,904 people in the metro area at 2007 estimate / 8,374 sq. mi.
(630 people/sq. mi) Even the most densest county in the area (Dekalb) is only 1/6th as packed as the London arean on average.

I think that we would use efficient public transportation, but unless you're in NYC, Boston or D.C. areas then it doesn't exist.

But no one is pushing for better public transport as far as I can tell.

They just buy existing houses, and don't increase population density to the point where transit is feasible. The change in mindset (living on top of each other) will not happen unless there's no other fiscally workable choice for most people.

Right, because they don't really want to. They choose not to and pay high gas bills as a consequence.


Notice the difference.
London: 7,512,400 people in the Metro area (the 32 boroughs) at mid 2006 estimate / 609 sq mi. (12,336 people/sq mi.)

Atlanta: 5,278,904 people in the metro area at 2007 estimate / 8,374 sq. mi.
(630 people/sq. mi) Even the most densest county in the area (Dekalb) is only 1/6th as packed as the London arean on average.

Yeah, the layout is unsustainable.

But no one is pushing for better public transport as far as I can tell.

To use Atlanta as an example (Because that's the urban area I'm most familiar with) Public transport has been on the board and has been being built since 1970. The 5 core counties of Atlanta voted to tax themselves to build a light rail and bus system, but because of racial tensions between the black inner city and the white suburbans, the outer 3 counties banned the system they were paying taxes to support....even during the gas crunch of the late '70's...Actually, it's still banned in the Northern Counties. So because of it, the lines were never able to expand to the suburbs where they're needed the most.

It's a unique situation, I guess.

And for where I live (North Alabama) efficient in-city transport isn't really an option as it's not profitable. Also as all my trips in-town are less that 5 miles, gas ins't as big of an issue as it would be if I commuted 30 miles each way.

Right, because they don't really want to. They choose not to and pay high gas bills as a consequence.

No. They moved from 40 miles away to a inner-city neighborhood 4 miles away. Theoretically that would cut commuting costs by 90% What they didn't do, is abandon the "American way of life" by moving to a place that can be car-free. Using less gas is a good way to start, for most.

Yeah, the layout is unsustainable.

In small cities it can be sustained due to the miniscule average trip distance. In big cities, probably not. What could / should (since we're not going to give up our backyards anytime soon) happen is a network of light rail stations from the urban center to the centers of suburban cities (Think NJ Transit). Then we can get people to drive 3-5 miles to the station instead of 30 miles downtown. Then maybe people will want to live neat the city centers instead of in sub-divisions, but I doubt it.

Bullshit. Some people don't have a choice as to where they work. You can't magically find a position that benefits you, and happened to live across the street from the place. The position itself could be in an area where one can't quite afford to live.

As for the public transportation scenario, certain cities (Detroit mainly) won't have the option in creating such a possibility, seeing as the city itself is falling apart, while our mayor takes out money from the city to buy his wife a brand new car, among other idiotic moves on his part.

i think i've spotted your problem. leave michigan - its the only solution.

It's very much a case of won't rather than can't. Americans don't want public transportation

I do!

I think its a sorry attempt to lower gas prices and boost the economy!

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*glorious return to NSG*

I'm back people.