NationStates Jolt Archive

Have like a 'Tibetan culture remembrance Day', if as they say Tibetan culture is being wiped out by China, then it would be beneficial to remind people about the wonders and greatness of Tibetan cultural practices. Cultural practices like:

Slavery (including common use of chains and yokes on people)
Serfdom
Monks sexually molesting young children
Tyrannical clerical theocracy
Average lifespan of 30
Abject poverty
Public punishments such as genital mutilation for peasants who stole for food.

FREE TIBET!
(maybe 'Friendly Feudalism Day'?)

I don't think thats very nice things for a remembrance day. I wouldn't want to remember that.

Have like a 'Tibetan culture remembrance Day', if as they say Tibetan culture is being wiped out by China, then it would be beneficial to remind people about the wonders and greatness of Tibetan cultural practices. Cultural practices like:

Slavery (including common use of chains and yokes on people)
Serfdom
Monks sexually molesting young children
Tyrannical clerical theocracy
Average lifespan of 30
Abject poverty
Public punishments such as genital mutilation for peasants who stole for food.

FREE TIBET!
(maybe 'Friendly Feudalism Day'?)

Better yet, how about a "Soviet Culture Remembrance Day"? They could celebrate gulags and purges. :rolleyes:

Better yet, how about a "Soviet Culture Remembrance Day"? They could celebrate gulags and purges. :rolleyes:

:facepalms:

Thanks escapist, but I would pay good money to see you in Siberia, you need reeducation desperately.

Have like a 'Tibetan culture remembrance Day', if as they say Tibetan culture is being wiped out by China, then it would be beneficial to remind people about the wonders and greatness of Tibetan cultural practices. Cultural practices like:

Slavery (including common use of chains and yokes on people)
Serfdom
Monks sexually molesting young children
Tyrannical clerical theocracy
Average lifespan of 30
Abject poverty
Public punishments such as genital mutilation for peasants who stole for food.

FREE TIBET!
(maybe 'Friendly Feudalism Day'?)One could get the impression that culture was something static, from that post.

:facepalms:

Thanks escapist, but I would pay good money to see you in Siberia, you need reeducation desperately.Back in Stalin's day, you could get there for free if you played your cards right :D

One could get the impression that culture was something static, from that post.

Exactly, which is why they should be thanking China (and in particular the native born Tibetan Red Guards of their own country) for progressing the country so quickly out of such horrible conditions. Remember it was only 1950 that Tibet was liberated from the tyranny of the Lama's and monks, and the slaves were emancipated. Tibetan culture was static until it was liberated, the old tired line of 'the Tibetan protesters don't want feudalism' is escapist because it was the Chinese who pulled Tibetan society out of feudalism and into the future.

Exactly, which is why they should be thanking China (and in particular the native born Tibetan Red Guards of their own country) for progressing the country so quickly out of such horrible conditions. Remember it was only 1950 that Tibet was liberated from the tyranny of the Lama's and monks, and the slaves were emancipated. Tibetan culture was static until it was liberated, the old tired line of 'the Tibetan protesters don't want feudalism' is escapist because it was the Chinese who pulled Tibetan society out of feudalism and into the future.The idea that Tibetan culture today would have remained exactly the same as it was before the Chinese invasion if said invasion hadn't happened is pretty stupid, particularly considering that the only input China has had on Tibetan exile culture is the exile and that the government in exile is quite a bit less feudal than the current Chinese government.

Exactly, which (......)into the future.

If getting kicked around by the Communist Chinese is the future, I say fuck the future.

Where is it stated that Tibetan independence=a return to feudalism? (Except in Chinese propoganda)

Exactly, which is why they should be thanking China (and in particular the native born Tibetan Red Guards of their own country) for progressing the country so quickly out of such horrible conditions. Remember it was only 1950 that Tibet was liberated from the tyranny of the Lama's and monks, and the slaves were emancipated. Tibetan culture was static until it was liberated, the old tired line of 'the Tibetan protesters don't want feudalism' is escapist because it was the Chinese who pulled Tibetan society out of feudalism and into the future.

Into a Chinese future that includes slavery and serfdom to the communist party, tyrannical oppression of cultural identity, abject poverty in forced resettlements, and public punishments and torture for just speaking your mind?

Yep, I can see how that's a big step forward indeed.

Into a Chinese future that includes slavery and serfdom to the communist party, tyrannical oppression of cultural identity, abject poverty in forced resettlements, and public punishments and torture for just speaking your mind?

Yep, I can see how that's a big step forward indeed.

Slavery in Tibet? No.
Cultural identity? Sure, but Tibetan culture isn't something you want to preserve.

Im afraid Im of two minds on this whole China-Tibet issue.
China certainly seems like tyrranical douchebag, and ought to recognise Tibets right as a soveriegn (sp?) nation, and yet, as pointed out earlier, they arent exactly angels either.

However, I come from a country that has the unmitigated grapefruits to protest an athlete carrying an Olympic torch, while waging a war against a third world muslim nation, with a death toll climbing over 200,000.
So it seems my people are just as stump-raping stupid as everyone elses, and we're all such hippocrites we think our own ass smells like sunshine and fabric softener.

Slavery in Tibet? No.
Cultural identity? Sure, but Tibetan culture isn't something you want to preserve.And here you'd get the idea that culture is not the sum of many different practices, traditions, and subcultures, but one single entity.

However, I come from a country that has the unmitigated grapefruits to protest an athlete carrying an Olympic torch, while waging a war against a third world muslim nation, with a death toll climbing over 200,000.

Iraq isn't third world. Even now, it isn't third world. Afghanistan is, but the Allied invasion was really a BLESSING there.

Iraq isn't third world. Even now, it isn't third world. Afghanistan is, but the Allied invasion was really a BLESSING there.Actually, it is. It's gotten a bit better, and most of the 3rd worldiness stems from the economic sanctions.

Actually, it is. It's gotten a bit better, and most of the 3rd worldiness stems from the economic sanctions.

And the neoliberal experiment that the CPA forced Iraq into, including no limits on foreign ownership and a flat 10% corporate tax - which led to widespread illegal economic activities and full-blown looting. And the fact that the US won't let Iraq declare it's debts odious, which they are because the countries lent that money to Iraq knowing Saddam was going to use it on military equipment against other countries and his own people.

Reminds me of a quote from Joseph Chamberlain:

In carrying out this work of civilization we are fulfilling what I believe to be our national mission, and we are finding scope for the exercise of those faculties and qualities which have made of us a great and governing race. I do not say that our success has been perfect in every case, I do not say that all methods have been beyond reproach; but I do say that in almost every instance in which the rule of the Queen has been established and the great Pax Britannica has been enforced, there has come with it the greater security to life and property, and a material improvement in the condition of the bulk of the population. No doubt, in the first instance, when these conquests have been made, there has been bloodshed, there has been loss of life among the native populations, loss of still more precious lives among those who have been sent out to bring these countries into some kind of disciplined order, but it must be remembered that that is the condition of the mission we have to fulfil. There are, of course, among us - there always are among us, I think - a very small minority of men who are ready to be the advocates of the most detestable tyrants, provided their skin is black - men who sympathize with the sorrows of Prempeh and Lobengula [African kings who resisted the British], and who denounce as murderers those of their countrymen who have gone forth at the command of the Queen, and who have redeemed districts as large as Europe from the barbarism and the superstition in which they had been steeped for centuries. I remember a picture by Mr. Selous of a philanthropist - an imaginary philanthropist, I will hope - sitting cozily by his fireside and denouncing the methods by which British civilization was promoted. This philanthropist complained of the use of the Maxim guns and other instruments of warfare, and asked why we could not proceed by more conciliatory methods, and why the impis [warriors] of Lobengula could not be brought before a magistrate, and fined five shillings and bound over to keep the peace. Link. (http://chnm.gmu.edu/history/faculty/kelly/wciv/imperialism/chamberlain.htm)

Another little irony from our little anti-imperialist.

Sure, but Tibetan culture isn't something you want to preserve.

Only if you presume its composed solely of its most negative elements. One might say the same for anywhere, were that the case.

Are you just trolling?

Tibet was never, nor ever will be, a country of it's own.

Tibet was never, nor ever will be, a country of it's own.Nor is Rotovia- black :D

Tibet was never, nor ever will be, a country of it's own.

So if Tibet was never a country then why did the Chinese invade the "nation" if it didn't exist?

Tibet was never, nor ever will be, a country of it's own.

Isn't that the same argument thats used to deny Palestinian statehood? (which you support, as far as I remember....)

So if Tibet was never a country then why did the Chinese invade the "nation" if it didn't exist?

Tibet was never recognized by any nation in the world, it was always Chinese but just existed as a backward area and a face of 'friendly feudalism' for the rest of the world, the rest of the world however didn't see the brutal reality of slave life for the Tibetan people.

The 'West' only took an interest in Tibet because it was the Communists who finally got rid of that decrepit old system, and opportunistically they took advantage of this.

If anyone here is even remotely considering taking Andaras seriously, just read what he/she wrote as his/her occupation on his/her profile.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/member.php?u=1593302
It looks like there's some racial motivation behind your comments, Andaras.

Isn't that the same argument thats used to deny Palestinian statehood? (which you support, as far as I remember....)

Palestine, although it has economic problems, has been an industrialized modern society for a long long time now, Tibet on the other hand was still practicing exactly the same backward feudal system in the 1940's as they did in the 1500's, if a society cannot progress and thereby keep up with the march of modernity then it is irrelevant. The fact is that even in 1949 Tibet was still the same as it had been for centuries. The society wasn't going anywhere and never would, if anything the social transformation Mao initiated, although it may have been hard to pull Tibet out of the 15th century - they prevailed in turning Tibet from a feudal existance into a modern industrial society. Slaves were freed and the tyranny of the theocratic rulers was overthrown.

Simply put, Tibet failed to justify itself as a modern state because it had no concept of modern statehood, hell you couldn't even call up the Dalai Lama and diplomatically negotiate.

Feudal apologists like you would still be defending Tibet feudalism to this day if it still existed, making various excuses and trying to find any excuse to dis the Chinese. Action was needed and Tibet is a better place for it, funny isn't it that the 'nationalism' of the Tibetan protesters wouldn't even exist if it wasn't the Chinese opening Tibet to the future - Tibetan feudalism had no modern concepts at all.

Tibet was never recognized by any nation in the world, it was always Chinese but just existed as a backward area and a face of 'friendly feudalism' for the rest of the world, the rest of the world however didn't see the brutal reality of slave life for the Tibetan people.

The 'West' only took an interest in Tibet because it was the Communists who finally got rid of that decrepit old system, and opportunistically they took advantage of this.And replaced it with another decrepit old system. Yau China.

Do you sit in front of a calendar or something, waiting for anniversaries to show up so you can start threads about them? Can't you go out for a breath of air for a change?

And replaced it with another decrepit old system. Yau China.

Do you sit in front of a calendar or something, waiting for anniversaries to show up so you can start threads about them? Can't you go out for a breath of air for a change?

Socialism is the natural progressive mode of production to follow capitalism.

Your bias shows because in the face of seeing slavery, rife infant morality, life expectancy of 30, you will defend this wretched system because of your own rapid anti-communism. You are sad.

Socialism is the natural progressive mode of production to follow capitalism.In Soviet Russia, capitalism is the natural progressive mode of production to follow socialism! :D

Your bias shows because in the face of seeing slavery, rife infant morality, life expectancy of 30, you will defend this wretched system because of your own rapid anti-communism. You are sad.The irony burns almost as brightly as your crude straw man argument:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/ulteriormotives/IMG_0927-758016.jpg

In Soviet Russia, message posts you! :cool:

Andaras, don't be surprised when trolling that you're counter-trolled.

To claim that Tibet is everything bad and then to claim that Soviet Russia and China is everything good reeks of an absolutism of the kind that's sickening to the very core of humanity.

In Soviet Russia, capitalism is the natural progressive mode of production to follow socialism! :D

Nice one ^^

The irony burns almost as brightly as your crude straw man argument:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/ulteriormotives/IMG_0927-758016.jpg
Nice evasion.

Nice one ^^It's funny, because it's true! =D

He really set himself up with that one. It's times like these that I think he might actually be a parody.

Nice evasion.
You started it by using a straw man argument...
I have no need to justify a position I do not hold ;)

Tibet was never, nor ever will be, a country of it's own.
As I recall, the last time you stated that, you got spanked, badly, by those folks who actually know what they are talking about. Do you like pain THAT much that you ask for more again?

It would explain a whole hell of a lot.

As I recall, the last time you stated that, you got spanked, badly, by those folks who actually know what they are talking about. Do you like pain THAT much that you ask for more again?

It would explain a whole hell of a lot.If I recall correctly, pain/punishment is only useful for the learning process if it follows the misdeed in a very timely manner. Unless he's strapped to a computer system that gives him electro-shocks every time he gets pwnd in debate, I'm afraid he won't be learning any lessons.

As I recall, the last time you stated that, you got spanked, badly, by those folks who actually know what they are talking about. Do you like pain THAT much that you ask for more again?

It would explain a whole hell of a lot.

As I explained on the last page, Tibet failed to justify itself as a modern state, it's like hunter-gatherer society coexisting next to modern industrial society. Maybe you pampered Westerns like have a 'feudal tourist attraction' but unbeknown to people like you real people lived in Tibet in slavery with a life expectancy of 30 and permanent indenture to the monk aristocracy - and they didn't like it one bit. That's probably why tens of thousands of freed Tibetans joined the Red Guard after liberation and themselves (not the Chinese) destroyed the cornerstones of feudalism.

If I recall correctly, pain/punishment is only useful for the learning process if it follows the misdeed in a very timely manner. Unless he's strapped to a computer system that gives him electro-shocks every time he gets pwnd in debate, I'm afraid he won't be learning any lessons.
Ooo! Now THERE'S an idea! Sadly though, it could and would be applied to everyone on NSG so I think it is best abandoned. :D

As I explained on the last page, Tibet failed to justify itself as a modern state, it's like hunter-gatherer society coexisting next to modern industrial society. Maybe you pampered Westerns like have a 'feudal tourist attraction' but unbeknown to people like you real people lived in Tibet in slavery with a life expectancy of 30 and permanent indenture to the monk aristocracy - and they didn't like it one bet. That's probably why tens of thousands of freed Tibetans joined the Red Guard after liberation and themselves (not the Chinese) destroyed the cornerstones of feudalism.
And as noted, you got pwned hard the last time you attempted to claim that this mattered in any way shape or form.

And pampered Westerns? You live in Australia.

As I explained on the last page, Tibet failed to justify itself as a modern state, it's like hunter-gatherer society coexisting next to modern industrial society. Maybe you pampered Westerns like have a 'feudal tourist attraction' but unbeknown to people like you real people lived in Tibet in slavery with a life expectancy of 30 and permanent indenture to the monk aristocracy - and they didn't like it one bit. That's probably why tens of thousands of freed Tibetans joined the Red Guard after liberation and themselves (not the Chinese) destroyed the cornerstones of feudalism.Actually, no. The Isle of Sark, not Tibet was the cornerstone of feudalism, and the Chinese had nothing to do with getting rid of feudalism there.

Actually, no. The Isle of Sark, not Tibet was the cornerstone of feudalism, and the Chinese had nothing to do with getting rid of feudalism there.
:facepalms:
You're a shocking evasionist.

Have like a 'Tibetan culture remembrance Day', if as they say Tibetan culture is being wiped out by China, then it would be beneficial to remind people about the wonders and greatness of Tibetan cultural practices. Cultural practices like:

Slavery (including common use of chains and yokes on people)
Serfdom
Monks sexually molesting young children
Tyrannical clerical theocracy
Average lifespan of 30
Abject poverty
Public punishments such as genital mutilation for peasants who stole for food.

FREE TIBET!
(maybe 'Friendly Feudalism Day'?)
And I'm certain that the following day you'd support a "Chinese Culture remembrance day" where we can celebrate cultural practises such as:

Throw people in jail for up to 7 years for carrying a picture of the Dalai Lama, a Tibetan flag, or even uttering the words, "Free Tibet"
Break, smash, mutilate and bind the feet of women
randomly pick 1/10th of the population to be branded undesirable and shipped off to 're-education' camps
Let millions starve to death from abject failed policies
Let the Leader of the parade molest and rape young girls
Arrest, detain and imprison hundreds of thousands without trial, for years, for their religious and/or political beliefs
Turn a blind eye to slavery in brick kilns and elsewhere
Turn a blind eye to child labour
Encourage abortion of female fetuses
Ignore rape and other crimes against women
Heavily censor all media and crack down heavily on anyone attempting to tell anything other than state-decided 'truths'
Execute more prisoners than the rest of the world combined - and harvest their organs for paying customers. These executions include the peoples mentioned above who are imprisoned for their beliefs

and so on and so forth...

I mean, you'd love to be at the forefront of that parade too, wouldn't you?

:facepalms:
You're a shocking evasionist.You were replying to NERVUN. How joining that debate could be an acto of evasion is beyond me. Besides, Sark was much more feudal and certainly longer so than Tibet.

Have like a 'Tibetan culture remembrance Day', if as they say Tibetan culture is being wiped out by China, then it would be beneficial to remind people about the wonders and greatness of Tibetan cultural practices. Cultural practices like:

Slavery (including common use of chains and yokes on people)
Serfdom
Monks sexually molesting young children
Tyrannical clerical theocracy
Average lifespan of 30
Abject poverty
Public punishments such as genital mutilation for peasants who stole for food.

FREE TIBET!
(maybe 'Friendly Feudalism Day'?)

all right... so granted, tibet, before the chinese intervention, failed moderizing... but, is that a reason for invastion? If so, we'd better start recolonialising the African continent again.

Ok, the leaders before the Current Dalai lhama where dictators.
But, the current dalai Llama, after he talked to Chairman Mao was inspired by quite a lot of his oppinions.

I'm sure that if the Chaiirman didn't drove the Llama out, they'd have succeded in a strict divertion between "Temple" and state.
for religion, when not in an lawmaking possition can inspire people to do wonderfull things.
for example: Majoor boshart, Mother theresa and Marthin Luther King.

monks sexually harrasing children isn't just Limited to thibet, or religion, or kapitalism.

Average lifespan of 30... i believe it would be better to send doctors instead of soldiers.
that would also give the communists a better reputation amongst the people... and according to marx's theories that you clearly love the revolution would come from the inside.

Poverty, that's mostly because... there was almost nothing that the west could use.

and corporal punnishment and torture are vile and should be banned.
But at the moment China isn't doing such a great job at bannin that, havin the death pennalty and all...

but I'm ranting here... or rhather spamming with quite useless imformation.

therefore my oppinion on the whole is:
Make thibet a SAR, give the bhudists the freedom to practice their religion, whenever and wherever they want, and have a sepperate government that makes the SAR prosperous and social.

I mean, you'd love to be at the forefront of that parade too, wouldn't you?Actually, I can see him championing a few of those for real.

:facepalms:

Thanks escapist, but I would pay good money to see you in Siberia, you need reeducation desperately.

Capitalist Pigdog! :mad:

Palestine, (.....) at all.

Thats not what you said, however. You stated
Tibet was never, nor ever will be, a country of it's own.
..which is the same argument used against a Palestinian state.

Capitalist Pigdog! :mad:

Bah! Look under his nick, and what you see? "CyberFruit Merchant"!
Andaras, you better go purge yourself, you exploiter B-Word-from-French swine!

Thats not what you said, however. You stated

..which is the same argument used against a Palestinian state.
And indeed, many other states around the world at various times of their existence. Many of the USSR states had been traditionally occupied by Russia. Didn't stop them having their own language and cultural identities and, now, internationally recognised independence.

Slavery in Tibet? No.
Cultural identity? Sure, but Tibetan culture isn't something you want to preserve.

What would you call "forcing people to work without adequately refunding them for it"?

And indeed, many other states around the world at various times of their existence. Many of the USSR states had been traditionally occupied by Russia. Didn't stop them having their own language and cultural identities and, now, internationally recognised independence.

Yep.

And here we are with another of Andaras' lovely hypocritical rants about how it was really OK for the Chinese to invade Tibet.
Thats a paddlin'.

Well, I must admit that, having read up on Tibet before China, Andaras has a point. It's about as close to relevant to the current situation in Tibet as the hand musket is to modern warfare.

The Lama class was feudal and abusive. However, there's nothing to suggest that an independent Tibet would be that way. However, there's not much to suggest it would be ideal for the average Tibetan, either.

What I find interesting is that nobody got really upset about Tibet until celebrities started meeting with the Dalai Lama and publicizing what really neat guy he was. I'm inherently suspicious of anything political that gets endorsed by people whose job it is to focus on style over substance.

I guess my overall opinion is that neither side on an issue so polarizing can ever be wholly correct. Are the Chinese noted for an "interesting" point of view on situations? Absolutely. Can we know that independence would be best for Tibet? Not really.

Without a clear path to a solution, I don't see the point in getting worked up about it, either way.

Except for that whole pesky thing of China invading a soveriegn nation for no purpose other than territorial gain.

And as noted, you got pwned hard the last time you attempted to claim that this mattered in any way shape or form.

And pampered Westerns? You live in Australia.

In a rather nice suburban house really. And a few of the latest entertainment systems like an Xbox 360.

In Soviet Russia, capitalism is the natural progressive mode of production to follow socialism! :D

Win.

Have like a 'Tibetan culture remembrance Day', if as they say Tibetan culture is being wiped out by China, then it would be beneficial to remind people about the wonders and greatness of Tibetan cultural practices. Cultural practices like:

Slavery (including common use of chains and yokes on people)
Serfdom
Monks sexually molesting young children
Tyrannical clerical theocracy
Average lifespan of 30
Abject poverty
Public punishments such as genital mutilation for peasants who stole for food.

FREE TIBET!
(maybe 'Friendly Feudalism Day'?)

How many culture's/societies/civilizations haven't done some, if not all, of those.

How many culture's/societies/civilizations haven't done some, if not all, of those.Well, communist ones of course, you capitalist bourgeois reactionary fool!

Well, communist ones of course, you capitalist bourgeois reactionary fool!

pfft...pinko

*blacklists Laerod*

I don't think thats very nice things for a remembrance day. I wouldn't want to remember that.
Remembrance days should be about all aspects of a society, not just the good ones. Or you forget that every nation is run by deeply flawed people, always was, and always will be. Don't want that happening.

Capitalist Pigdog! :mad:

Easy on the pigs and dogs! At least they perform some useful function.

If getting kicked around by the Communist Chinese is the future, I say fuck the future.

Where is it stated that Tibetan independence=a return to feudalism? (Except in Chinese propoganda)

you see Andaras blindly accepts Communist Propaganda as Reality...

Exactly, which is why they should be thanking China (and in particular the native born Tibetan Red Guards of their own country) for progressing the country so quickly out of such horrible conditions. Remember it was only 1950 that Tibet was liberated from the tyranny of the Lama's and monks, and the slaves were emancipated. Tibetan culture was static until it was liberated, the old tired line of 'the Tibetan protesters don't want feudalism' is escapist because it was the Chinese who pulled Tibetan society out of feudalism and into the future.

You crack me up. Seriously. :D

I have a lot to do today, so let's just pretend we bantered back and forth, I provided specific evidence of Tibet's internal change and asked you questions, and you ran away for a few days without answering and then started a new thread of bull. Kay? Kay.

If anyone here is even remotely considering taking Andaras seriously, just read what he/she wrote as his/her occupation on his/her profile.
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/member.php?u=1593302
It looks like there's some racial motivation behind your comments, Andaras.

You don't have to go that far, just look at his sig. "I support a criminal ideology"? He's of the same ilk as the rebellious anarchist kids he so loathes. "Look, my ideology is hated around the world! I am BAD ASS!"

Snip.

That you support any of the indecent, repulsive actions of a colonialist, actually-capitalist, government just because it calls itself socialist speaks volumes about your lack of understanding of what socialism and communism actually MEANS. Not to mention your ethics.

I'm beginning to realise that a lot of the arguments in support of Chinese rule in Tibet seem to be very similar to the arguments used in support of European colonisation of Africa and India like bringing an end to feudal political systems and industrial advancement. There might be a bit of brutal repression on the side, but you get to have the honour of being a colony of a world power. Yay!

I'm beginning to realise that a lot of the arguments in support of Chinese rule in Tibet seem to be very similar to the arguments used in support of European colonisation of Africa and India like bringing an end to feudal political systems and industrial advancement. There might be a bit of brutal repression on the side, but you get to have the honour of being a colony of a world power. Yay!
exactly. It's extremely condescending and patronising, treating the Tibetans like idiot children who 'need' China to keep them safe from harming themselves. "You just don't understand. You're much better off with us oppressing you."

Tibet was never recognized by any nation in the world, it was always Chinese but just existed as a backward area and a face of 'friendly feudalism' for the rest of the world, the rest of the world however didn't see the brutal reality of slave life for the Tibetan people.
The 'West' only took an interest in Tibet because it was the Communists who finally got rid of that decrepit old system, and opportunistically they took advantage of this.
Which just goes to prove that Andaras knows absolutely nothing about Tibetan history other than the propaganda that is parroted on pro-PRC websites.
If the 'West' had no interest in Tibet until after the PRC took over China (1949), then pray tell, what was the British invasion of Tibet in 1904 all about? And no, it wasn't to invade China, it was to stop Russia.
Or indeed the British-Chinese treaty agreements in 1886, 1890 and 1893?
And of course the total loss of control the Chinese had over Tibet due to the 1st Sino-Japanese War of 1894-1897, which helped convince the British to invade.
Then there's the treaty between Tibet and Mongolia in 1913 which proclaimed mutual recognition and their independence from China. Notice those words? "mutual recognition and independence from China"

Or the 1914 convention between Britain, Tibet and China in which China would recognise two regions: Outer Tibet, approximately the same area as the modern Tibet Autonomous Region, which would be autonomous under Chinese suzerainty (an old term, roughly correlating to our modern ideas of soveriegnty). In this area, China would refrain from "interference in the administration." In Inner Tibet, consisting of eastern Kham and Amdo, Lhasa would retain control of religious matters only.
Beijing rejected the treaty as it was drawn up, but Britain and Tibet both signed it as a bilateral accord.
Know what this means? It meant each signatory (ie. Britain and Tibet) recognises the other as independent.
Finally, in 1947-1949, a Tibetan delegation went to several countries on a trade mission. In many of those countries they were allowed to enter using their Tibetan-issued passports, not their Chinese ones. This is a defacto recognition of their independence since only independent sovereignties can issue passports.

The Chinese claim to Tibet is on par with their claim to Nepal (which they have invaded and occupied over the centuries). So why isn't Andaras stamping his little feet and demanding that the Chinese invade and take over that country as well? Free those poletariats from the oppressive king and ebil monks
of course now that I've mentioned it, he probably will.

Andaras must have his "sources" from Xinhua or something :headbang:

but dammit, it was their feudalism!! Seriously though, for me it's a question of national sovereignty, not human rights.

I think the problem with Tibet is that people fail to realize that both sides have validity, they either believe one side or the other.

Yes it is true that Tibet was historically been part of China for a very long time.
However this relationship with China is more along the lines of tributary then full out control. similar areas under such relationships with China for a long time include Korea and Vietnam.
These is further evidenced by the fact that the Tibet goverment system slaves and all was still in existence at the time the communist party removed it.

Were the people in Tibet in a really crappy position before the communist party came ? Yes
Are the people in Tibet in a much better position economically and arguably socially ? Yes
Are the two above alone enough to justify continued dominance by Beijing ?
No.

Whats the Solution ?
there are unfortunately no easy answers.
A vote of the people of Tibet might help but with the influx of Han Chinese into Tibet this raises issues with who can vote. Is an ethnic based vote fair ?
Is a Vote with everyone currently residing in Tibet unfair?

In the end no matter which path China and Tibet take there will be many problems associated with it.

The Chinese claim to Tibet is on par with their claim to Nepal (which they have invaded and occupied over the centuries). So why isn't Andaras stamping his little feet and demanding that the Chinese invade and take over that country as well? Free those poletariats from the oppressive king and ebil monks
of course now that I've mentioned it, he probably will.Because the Nepalese now have a Maoist government that's getting rid of the monarchy.

Few recognise that the situation not only concerns Tibet, but the rest of China. Indeed, objective evidence can go both ways justifying and opposing Chinese sovereignty of Tibet, but speaking in political reality, Tibet cannot live without China and more importantly, China cannot live without Tibet.

So my advice for pro-Tibetan supporters, which indeed have good cause of grievance, to focus not solely on "Free Tibet", but "Free China" (which means you have to stop viewing it as a threat and start reading about it and understanding it), because a free China will automatically mean a free Tibet.

The problem with most Chinese people when you say "Free Tibet" is that you automatically also advocate "Split Up China". Nobody likes it when you advocate the splitting up of their country, especially one that has only been reunited from foreign control in the last fifty years or so.

Few recognise that the situation not only concerns Tibet, but the rest of China. Indeed, objective evidence can go both ways justifying and opposing Chinese sovereignty of Tibet, but speaking in political reality, Tibet cannot live without China and more importantly, China cannot live without Tibet.

So my advice for pro-Tibetan supporters, which indeed have good cause of grievance, to focus not solely on "Free Tibet", but "Free China" (which means you have to stop viewing it as a threat and start reading about it and understanding it), because a free China will automatically mean a free Tibet.

The problem with most Chinese people when you say "Free Tibet" is that you automatically also advocate "Split Up China". Nobody likes it when you advocate the splitting up of their country, especially one that has only been reunited from foreign control in the last fifty years or so.

The Tibetans do not see their nation as "part of China." To them, the current state of affairs is a 50 year occupation of their home by foreign invaders.

It doesn't matter how bad they had it before. As long as they feel that their country is ruled by foreigners, there will always be resentment, unless their culture and national identity is completely wiped out. National pride (and shame) is a strange thing.

The Tibetans do not see their nation as "part of China." To them, the current state of affairs is a 50 year occupation of their home by foreign invaders.

It doesn't matter how bad they had it before. As long as they feel that their country is ruled by foreigners, there will always be resentment, unless their culture and national identity is completely wiped out. National pride (and shame) is a strange thing.

You are absolutely right. Perception is more important than facts in politics.

Let me explain what I think in more detail. In the back of my mind I have the relationship between England and Scotland as a point of reference. The Scots were very pissed off by the English domination of their country way back in the 18th century and staged a series of rebellions, which were all put down harshly by the British government. There was a time in which it was national policy to wipe out the Highland culture.

But with a general democratisation of Britain in the 19th and 20th centuries, Scotland benefited too. Nowadays, even though the inequalities between Scotland and England are clear, most people want them to be part of the same country (despite vocal rumblings by some). Scotland's culture and language are recognised; they have their own currency, their own sports team, their own parliament, massive subsidies from London... All of this was achieved not by "Freeing Scotland" but "Freeing Britain" in general.

I believe that the same can happen for China and Tibet (and by extension Xinjiang, Taiwan, and perhaps Inner Mongolia) eventually.

You are absolutely right. Perception is more important than facts in politics.

Let me explain what I think in more detail. In the back of my mind I have the relationship between England and Scotland as a point of reference. The Scots were very pissed off by the English domination of their country way back in the 18th century and staged a series of rebellions, which were all put down harshly by the British government. There was a time in which it was national policy to wipe out the Highland culture.

But with a general democratisation of Britain in the 19th and 20th centuries, Scotland benefited too. Nowadays, even though the inequalities between Scotland and England are clear, most people want them to be part of the same country (despite vocal rumblings by some). Scotland's culture and language are recognised; they have their own currency, their own sports team, their own parliament, massive subsidies from London... All of this was achieved not by "Freeing Scotland" but "Freeing Britain" in general.

I believe that the same can happen for China and Tibet (and by extension Xinjiang, Taiwan, and perhaps Inner Mongolia) eventually.

You mean Tibetans can gradually breed into the Chinese leadership until, by some stroke of luck, the ethnically Chinese portion of the family is killed off to the point where the person actually in charge is fully Tibetan?
That'd be pretty awesome.

Whats the Solution ?
there are unfortunately no easy answers.
A SAR (Self-Administered Region) such as what we have in Hong Kong or Macau would be ideal. Which is pretty much all the Dalai Lama is proposing these days.

A SAR (Self-Administered Region) such as what we have in Hong Kong or Macau would be ideal. Which is pretty much all the Dalai Lama is proposing these days.

well your ideal maybe.

my ideal is that Tibet is turned over to me to rule as my own fiefdom.

You mean Tibetans can gradually breed into the Chinese leadership until, by some stroke of luck, the ethnically Chinese portion of the family is killed off to the point where the person actually in charge is fully Tibetan?
That'd be pretty awesome.

What? :eek:

What? :eek:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_I_of_England

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_I_of_England

:headbang:

A general comparison, mate. Not a fact-by-fact reproduction.

:headbang:

A general comparison, mate. Not a fact-by-fact reproduction.

Pffft, where's the fun in that?
I demand that China have a Scottish king!

Few recognise that the situation not only concerns Tibet, but the rest of China. Indeed, objective evidence can go both ways justifying and opposing Chinese sovereignty of Tibet, but speaking in political reality, Tibet cannot live without China and more importantly, China cannot live without Tibet.

So my advice for pro-Tibetan supporters, which indeed have good cause of grievance, to focus not solely on "Free Tibet", but "Free China" (which means you have to stop viewing it as a threat and start reading about it and understanding it), because a free China will automatically mean a free Tibet.

The problem with most Chinese people when you say "Free Tibet" is that you automatically also advocate "Split Up China". Nobody likes it when you advocate the splitting up of their country, especially one that has only been reunited from foreign control in the last fifty years or so.

Couldn't we just protest in favour of "put China back under foreign control"? I'd quite like a governership in Singapore or the like.

Pffft, where's the fun in that?
I demand that China have a Scottish king!

Wait I am Scottish!!!

I DECLARE MYSELF KING OF CHINA!!!!

Wait I am Scottish!!!

I DECLARE MYSELF KING OF CHINA!!!!

Glasgow?

Couldn't we just protest in favour of "put China back under foreign control"? I'd quite like a governership in Singapore or the like.

Sure you can, if you're immune to criticisms of racism.

Wait I am Scottish!!!

I DECLARE MYSELF KING OF CHINA!!!!

Go the region of China and infiltrate them. Haha!

Sure you can, if you're immune to criticisms of racism.

Racism is not, as any student of the term would appreciate, immanent in Imperialism.

Racism is not, as any student of the term would appreciate, immanent in Imperialism.

Depends how you justify your imperialism. What I understood was that you thought the Chinese aren't capable of governing themselves, which is racist.

Depends how you justify your imperialism. What I understood was that you thought the Chinese aren't capable of governing themselves, which is racist.

And you leapt to this conclusion presumably because, like the majority of your generation, you have been inculcated to immediatly think racism and black slavery when the slightest mention of empire arises.

Go the region of China and infiltrate them. Haha!

I will head to the forbidden city and openly proclaim it, and take up a seat on the emperor's throne.

And you leapt to this conclusion presumably because, like the majority of your generation, you have been inculcated to immediatly think racism and black slavery when the slightest mention of empire arises.

Well, I was born and raised in an ex-British colony and racism was a fairly common government policy until the middle of the previous century.

I will head to the forbidden city and openly proclaim it, and take up a seat on the emperor's throne.

Yeah. So much for "Free Tibet".

randomly racist thread is random.

Well, I was born and raised in an ex-British colony and racism was a fairly common government policy until the middle of the previous century.

Really? Care to provide an example?

Really? Care to provide an example?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generations

Tibet cannot live without China and more importantly, China cannot live without Tibet.

??? Tibet would do fine without any Chinese, and China would do fine without any Tibetans. For most of the centuries of history, the two have barely interacted, and didn't miss each other.

Really? Care to provide an example?

Yes. Hong Kong is near the tropics and every summer it gets quite hot and humid. Luckily, it is also quite a hilly place, and the hill behind the city provides a cool, clean place to live during the summer. So after colonisation the British snapped it up for themselves and explicitly forbade ethnic Chiense to live on the hill (unless they were servants to the whites, of course). This law was repealed only after the Second World War.

This is only one of the many examples of anti-Chinese racism in Hong Kong until, ironically, the rise of Communist China in the mainland and the waves of decolonisation elsewhere in the world.

I believe that Tibet and China have historically had strong cultural and political ties between them. Just because interaction between the two has historically been minimal does not necessarily mean that they could survive as independent units from each other.

Even though interaction was historically low, it was generally accepted for the period throughout the Colonization era that Tibet was a part of China and was not de jure independent.

Plus, there must be some reason why the Dalai Lama doesn't want an independent Tibet?

randomly racist thread is random.
It's not racist. Insensitive and mean spirited. What is stated in the OP is technically true, it just could have been phrased better.

I believe that Tibet and China have historically had strong cultural and political ties between them.
Then you believe falsely. Tibetan culture has no more in common with Chinese culture than any two random cultures from anywhere in Asia. Japan, for example, has much more cultural influence from China than Tibet does; but no-one would claim Japan is "Chinese".
Just because interaction between the two has historically been minimal does not necessarily mean that they could survive as independent units from each other.
??? Yes, that's precisely what it means. If there had been a little ocean basis instead of a mountain plateau to the southwest of China, China would hardly be affected by the change.
Even though interaction was historically low, it was generally accepted for the period throughout the Colonization era that Tibet was a part of China and was not de jure independent.
That is not true. Other governments approached as if it were a separate nation. It was recognized that China had some kind of vague overlordship, but no-one anywhere in the world conceived of Tibet as "part of China".
Plus, there must be some reason why the Dalai Lama doesn't want an independent Tibet?
He doesn't want to push for it, or even ask for it, because he knows that is hopeless. What he would want, if he had his druthers, I'm sure is something like "China miraculously teleported to a new location elsewhere on the planet very very far from Tibet".

A SAR (Self-Administered Region) such as what we have in Hong Kong or Macau would be ideal. Which is pretty much all the Dalai Lama is proposing these days.

Ok now that I am sober I will address this matter seriously.

There are problems with that dont exist in Macao or Hong Kong, namely that there are a large number of Han Chinese now in Tibet a S.A.R. would likely have great influence of the Han Chinese. So one is left with the conclusion would a S.A.R. exclude the immigrants and what of their children and grand children?
Even S.A.R. territories the Beijing goverment endorses the executive branch's appointments (composed of a chief executive and secretaries). So if the Han Chinese were in the political process they may try and exploit this by labeling other non Han Chinese as being against the party. Not to mention S.A.R. are considered temporary to ease transition more in line with communist china.

Tibet will not be as easy as to set up an effective S.A.R.