NationStates Jolt Archive

I posted this in another Thread, but i was curious if the rest of the NSGers would support this solution to the problem...

I think the best solution to Israel would be to split it up, into, say Four Nations...

With the Gaza Strip being the new Palestine, the West Bank being a new nation as a sort of 'Buffer Zone', and Israel would control the rest...

The Fourth nation would be Jerusalem itself, in the style of say, Vatican City, only this would be a DMZ, where anyone can go, or live there, but they relinquish any Rights to Bear Arms, and no weapons are allowed to enter...

This DMZ would be enforced by a Multinational UN Force that will keep the peace...

I dont see how anyone could not support it without gaining the wrath of the International Community, stopping Radical Muslim Terrorism in its tracks...

That was my two cents anyway, lol...

That idea sucks, and the last thing anyone wants is a 'swiss cheese' Palestine with tiny Arab and Jewish enclaves and special autonomous zones spotted everywhere, what's needed is a straight forward two states with distinct borders which are internationally recognized. This is going to happen until a) Hamas and Fatah are disarmed, and b) Israeli 'settlers' (colonists) are stopped in their campaign to colonize Palestinian land.

I'd disagree. First of all, the West Bank and Gaza have too much to connect them. They're both Palestinian. Gaza is radical, the West Bank is moderate, but splitting them apart won't help.

And while I understand the thinking behind your Jerusalem idea, the Israelis won't go for it. It would be like requiring the French to give up Paris. Jerusalem is Israel's capital and largest city. Besides, the Palestinians may settle for the Arab suburbs, and some sort of Muslim authority over the Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem. They may want some of the outlying Arab neighborhoods, which the Israelis might grant them (but said neighborhoods would no longer be part of Jerusalem proper).

Just my two cents.

That idea sucks, and the last thing anyone wants is a 'swiss cheese' Palestine with tiny Arab and Jewish enclaves and special autonomous zones spotted everywhere, what's needed is a straight forward two states with distinct borders which are internationally recognized. This is going to happen until a) Hamas and Fatah are disarmed, and b) Israeli 'settlers' (colonists) are stopped in their campaign to colonize Palestinian land.

What he said.

The two-state solution is ridden with problems, but in the present political context it's the solution with the best chance of implementation and success. Certain alternatives may be theoretically "better", but if they're beyond the range of political possibility they're useless.

b) Israeli 'settlers' (colonists) are stopped in their campaign to colonize Palestinian land.

I would mostly agree with your earlier points, but, You cant just stop Jews from going to Israel, you seem to be very Anti-Israel, and, im not saying theyre great, but, i do think that you need to be fair to all parties involved...

I hope he was talking about the West Bank settlers. I agree, Israel needs to stop building new settlements there. It's just needlessly provoking the Palestinians.

You cant just stop Jews from going to Israel

He means, I assume, the settlers in the West Bank.

I say we take off and pie the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. *nod*

I say we take off and pie the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. *nod*

That would be your solution.

Assuming the Israelis don't have an pie defense shield.

Like it or not, Israel is here, and its not going away without something really horrible happening.
Having successfully kicked the ass of every one of their neighbors, its clear that the Israelis arent going to go away via conventional methods.
And, if Israel ever WAS militarily defeated and occupied, and the US didnt nuke people for it, the result would be rather like Afghanistan or Iraq, only the Israeli's have been proven to be willing to play far dirtier than anybody else when it comes to that particular game.
The Isarelis arent giving their country up, the Palestinians dont want to give theirs up, and a lot of their neighbors seem torn between getting their asses kicked AGAIN and Muslim Solidarity.

That would be your solution.

Assuming the Israelis don't have an pie defense shield.

There is no defense against Goofballian Pies.

I for one truly hope that the Palestinians get a state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip soon. Like many people (such as 99% of the Israeli population*), I am sick of this fighting.

* there is that 1% that wants to wipe out the Palestinians. Ignore them. We don't like them.

Here's another idea:
One democratic state (from the jordan river to the mediteranean sea, i.e. all the land that constitutes Israel and the occupied territories of Gaza and the West Bank) for all, regardless of religion
I mean: Why would there be a state based on religion? Is US citizenship based on religion? No
Is France citizenship based on religion? England? Norway? No
All advanced nations have transended religion and are currently open to all those who are born there
Why can't the same be applied to Israel?

Is US citizenship based on religion? No


Depends on who you talk to...I live in whats, Unfortunately, the Bible Belt, and they are dying for an Evangelical Theocracy...

But, id agree with your overall point, its just i dont see that nation lasting very long before descending into chaos and Civil War, because of the Hatred between those peoples...although its reasoning is not apparent to me, lol...

the entire Area would be better served by placing it under my direct control with death squads and the former Israeli military backing me up.

Here's another idea:
One democratic state (from the jordan river to the mediteranean sea, i.e. all the land that constitutes Israel and the occupied territories of Gaza and the West Bank) for all, regardless of religion
I mean: Why would there be a state based on religion? Is US citizenship based on religion? No
Is France citizenship based on religion? England? Norway? No
All advanced nations have transended religion and are currently open to all those who are born there
Why can't the same be applied to Israel?

Nice idea, but sadly, it won't happen. Both sides want their own states.

And you can be an Israeli without being Jewish. There are Muslims, Christians, Bahias, Druze...

And you can be an Israeli without being Jewish.

:eek: BLASPHEME!!! :rolleyes: lol

On Israel? Nukes!

...
Why can't the same be applied to Israel?Because Israelis, namely Jews, are afraid of becoming a minority in their Judenstaat.

Yeah, there'd still be a shitload of violence. It'd just be more confusing. And good luck getting a UN peacekeeping force to actually keep peace anywhere for a long period of time.

Wow Andaras, your post actually makes sense.

Though actually, this is an interesting idea. I especially like Jerusalem as a neutral DMZ. But yeah, I'd be a bit wary of making a whole bunch of new states in such a volatile region. There are enough disputed boarders and displaced people already.

the entire Area would be better served by placing it under my direct control with death squads and the former Israeli military backing me up.

You are too young for death squads. You can have a few hired goons, but no death squads until you're old enought to use them responsibly.

I think the two state solution is becoming rapidly outdated and new options need to be looked at.

Wow Andaras, your post actually makes sense.

Though actually, this is an interesting idea. I especially like Jerusalem as a neutral DMZ. But yeah, I'd be a bit wary of making a whole bunch of new states in such a volatile region. There are enough disputed boarders and displaced people already.

I think Israel needs to give up Jerusalem entirely, having like a divided city into Arab and Jewish enclaves just won't work, the Palestinians have literally been squeezed into such small urban slums and they desperately need land to be able to be a sustainable state.

I think Israel should be eager to try and frame itself and Palestine as independent states, rather than having these lingering arbitrary borders as remnants from old wars.

There is alot of criticism for Palestine, but the whole situation of the Israeli colonists and their blatant theft and acquisitions of Palestinian land and property are largely ignored by the 'Western' media and denied by all involved. If peace is to work then both sides need to be open, and Israel still largely ignores it's fanatic messianic settlers who still believe in the whole 'Greater Israel' nonsense.

I think the two state solution is becoming rapidly outdated and new options need to be looked at.
What do you want instead? The Jews will never agree to a one-state solution, except when it includes the complete removal of all Arabs from Palestine. So what is your suggestion?

I posted this in another Thread, but i was curious if the rest of the NSGers would support this solution to the problem...

I think the best solution to Israel would be to split it up, into, say Four Nations...

With the Gaza Strip being the new Palestine, the West Bank being a new nation as a sort of 'Buffer Zone', and Israel would control the rest...

The Fourth nation would be Jerusalem itself, in the style of say, Vatican City, only this would be a DMZ, where anyone can go, or live there, but they relinquish any Rights to Bear Arms, and no weapons are allowed to enter...

This DMZ would be enforced by a Multinational UN Force that will keep the peace...

I dont see how anyone could not support it without gaining the wrath of the International Community, stopping Radical Muslim Terrorism in its tracks...

That was my two cents anyway, lol...

A patchwork of enclaves is a recipe for troubles. Just like Bosnia, 1995.
Also, Israel and certain Palestinian groups have never shown respect for the UN and UN peace forces.

What do you want instead? The Jews will never agree to a one-state solution, except when it includes the complete removal of all Arabs from Palestine. So what is your suggestion?
I have to agree, religion has poisoned this situation something terrible. The situation is actually rather simple: We have two states, one predominantly Jewish and the other Arab, so the solution is simple: two states. The problems only come when religion gets involved, firstly you have the messianic and fanatical settlers who are backed by the Jewish Orthodox Church (and the evangelicals in America) who think all of Palestine (and large swaths of what is currently territorially belongs to other Arab countries) is 'God's Chosen People' and that they have the right to inflict violence and to squeeze the Palestinians into an ever decreasing strip of land, packed together and constantly under air attack and raids.

And while you have the Jewish extremists, you also have the Islamic extremists who are more than willing to take up the extremist Jews and say Palestine is part of the 'Caliphate' and want to destroy Jews in jihad.

The solution is simple, it's religion which screws it up, America could be an acceptable broker but they aren't because of the links of the US government to right-wing Zionist organizations in America who back the colonists in their violence and theft of Palestinian property.

A map that tells more than 1000 words:
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/294/gifpalestinianlossoflanvx0.jpg

"The Palestinians should be crushed like grasshoppers, their heads smashed against boulders and walls." -- Israeli Prime Minister, Yitzhak Shamir.

I think that Jerusalem should be part of no one state, nor should it be divided. It is a holy city for three major religions. Giving it over to one will simply perpetuate hate and warfare. Certainly the Palestinians need more room. They can have that in a Jerusalem DMZ. They form the majority of the population, so presumably they will inhabit the majority of the city. Forcing the Israelis out just to hand their sacred city over to a muslim government now would be just as ill-advised as forming Israel out of Palestinian-populated lands was in the first place.

On Israel? Nukes!

It's funny because I can't actually tell if UB is being serious or not.

It's funny because I can't actually tell if UB is being serious or not.You can't? After all this time?

Nice idea, but sadly, it won't happen. Both sides want their own states.

And you can be an Israeli without being Jewish. There are Muslims, Christians, Bahias, Druze...

But if you're muslim, you're a second class citizen, without the right to sign up in the Army, with a different ID card, with differents mineralogic plates on their cars, with a lots of discrimination on the every day life...

BUT !

At least they have the citizenship.
Being a Jewish into any Arab country is absolutly not as easy...

About making only one country, simply impossible now, too much hate and fear.
More, too much risk for the Jews being a minority and being again oppressed.

Creating the country of Israël was nevertheless an awfull mistake.

If any religious group gain the right to have is personnal holy land...

I think that Jerusalem should be part of no one state, nor should it be divided. It is a holy city for three major religions. Giving it over to one will simply perpetuate hate and warfare. Certainly the Palestinians need more room. They can have that in a Jerusalem DMZ. They form the majority of the population, so presumably they will inhabit the majority of the city. Forcing the Israelis out just to hand their sacred city over to a muslim government now would be just as ill-advised as forming Israel out of Palestinian-populated lands was in the first place.

Jerusalem should be evacuated and nuked. That's what Solomon would've done. *nod*

Arm the Palestinians so they are equal to the Israelis and let them fight it out. Battle Royale style. Whoever is left standing gets what they want. But both sides must have equal access to the same arsenal.

And which side gets the Armenian Christian Quarter of Jerusalem? The Jews or the Muslims? Also what about cities with Christian majorities such as Bethlehem, do they become their own city states or do they have to live under the rule of one of the two?

But if you're muslim, you're a second class citizen, without the right to sign up in the Army,

... without being drafted into the army. you have every right to join if you want
with a different ID card, with differents mineralogic plates on their cars,
All citizens of Israel have the same ID card (which hasn't mentioned ethnicity since 2005) and have the same license plate. Now, non-citizens of Israel from Palestine who work in Israel (but still live in Palestine), DO have different license plates and ID cards. But they aren't citizens... and thats normal in the vast majority of countries to require non-citizens to have different ID.

with a lots of discrimination on the every day life...

... which still leaves the Arab *citizens* of Israel better off than in actual Arab countries. Especially considering the discrimination is not officially sponsored by the government (unlike the discrimination against Jews in other countrys) and all the *citizens* of Israel are still treated well. The non-citizens in Israel are treated like... non-citizens.

.. Especially considering the discrimination is not officially sponsored by the government .

Well as most of the land is owned by a Government agency (the Israel Land Administration), and that Goverment agency discriminates against Arabs, I'd say you're wrong there. Likewise 'Admission committees' reject people from entering communities but use guidelines set by the Government to make that decision. Even the supposed curtailment of the discriminatory activities of the Jewish national Fund has effectively failed to materialise.

And then theres the treatment of the Bedouin....

The commission called on the government to build adequate infrastructure in unrecognized villages, to cease house demolitions and to stop spraying Bedouin crops with defoliants. The commission also expressed concern over the intention to transfer families from scattered shanties into permanent government-built communities, as proposed in the new Negev Bedouin development plan, recently approved by the government. The report noted the Environment Ministry's "systematic pursuit" of Bedouin citizens.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=298088