Glorious Freedonia
02-05-2008, 22:12
So, what you're saying is "true Americans are dumb, belligerent, borderline war-criminals that will destroy any country for real or perceived excuses, all the while ignoring the world".
What you're ALSO saying is "true Americans are only the 30% of Americans that STILL think the war was a good idea".
Which would make "true Americans" a minority of Americans. But Americanism is defined by MOST Americans. So...
Yeah. You're incoherent. And here I thought talking to you might not be a total waste of my time.
Americanism is defined by most americans. However, it is not defined as most americans living right now. Instead it goes to our values as a people. There are two competing American ideals. One is the ugly side of America and it is called isolationism. The other is sacrifice for ideals.
Sometimes we fight wars like the Spanish American War where we fight for our ideals. This is the good Americanism.
However, we were not supposed to have to worry about that stuff anymore. During WWII the United Nations was formed to combat the Axis. This big alliance was supposed to turn the world into a place where people would not be tortured or oppressed because of their religious or political views. However, the UN has not lived up to our expectations and it is time that we realize that you are not going to get anywhere in the area of enforcing human rights treaties when you have communist china on the security counsel. It was amazing that the UN was able to do much at all given the fact that the red chinese were given China's seat at the security counsel.
The UN has encouraged the isolationist monster to rear its ugly head again. Why should America make the world better, that is the job of the UN? Well the problem is that the UN is pretty much powerless.
The real America is the one that you see helping the Iraqis. The real America is the one that is giving food to the starving North Koreans even though they hate us. The real America is the one that went into Panama and removed a drug dealing dictator from power. The real America is the one that went into Vietnam and said, "We will help you defeat the communists!"
Anybody who opposes this by wanting to retreat into isolationism is the devils best friend for he fluorishes when men of good conscience do nothing. That is not the real America.
It is true that George Washington was an isolationist. However, at that time it made sense. We were not a superpower. In fact we were the opposite. We were a heavily indebted brand new nation with an enormous border and frontier and hardly any military resources to ensure our own defense.
Now we are the superpower. How we define our period of American greatness is up to us. Will we use our power to overthrow oppression and tyranny or will we continue as if we were still in the cold war and coddle up to any regime that advances our interests? I for one am proud that we are standing up to the world's bullies and criminal regimes.
I called the democrats and antiwar people Eurotrash and not Americans because the EU powers (with the exception of the UK and Spain and maybe some others) were in bed with Saddam with the whole oild for food scandal. They are the ones that resisted this war. I do not see any EU folks besides Britain and Spain who are willing to fight for ideals as opposed to mere self interest.
The EU would not even take care of the problems in their own backyard during the war and attrocities in Bosnia.
If you think we have done enough in Iraq. I can accept that argument. I do not agree but I still respect it. However, saying that our sacrifice was pointless or that Iraqis were better off under Saddam is disgusting and insulting to the memory of our war dead. Have any of you who oppose the war read the British white papers on the state of human rights in Iraq on the eve of the war? I did and it convinced me that we would be doing God's work if we liberated the poor wretches from the casket prison and other torture prisons that Saddam's regime used.
Have mistakes been made? Yes. There were some mistakes but we will always find problems in any human endeavor because we are a government of the people and not of the angels. I am ashamed of what we did with the waterboarding. It has been shut down and it is a dishonor. However, it is not as bad as the way that the French tortured during their war in Algeria.
We are not a quasi-evil nation like France yet we hear criticism from them all the time on the war. America has our faults from time to time but we never boarded any greenpeace vessles with navy frogmen troops. Our torture of terrorists was mild compared to what they did. It is no excuse for what we did but France does not have the right to criticize us.
Isloationism was around before WWII but fortunately God used us in his plan to defeat the Axis. We are the unwilling warriors but when we draw our sword the evil doers should tremble. For this reason when ever we draw it we should only sheathe it after we have achieved victory. Anything less and we lose credibility which is the most important element of national defense because if the enemy knows you will fight back and not quit until he is defeated he will not attack you. That is why it is said that the best swords remain sheathed.
Think that is all just a bunch of cliche babble? Saddam admitted in prison tha the never thought that the US would really attack him. All the nonsense with Hans Blick and UNSCOM was aimed at persuading Iran that he was further along with his WMD program than they realized.
Why did Saddam not think we were serious? I do not know but I would love to find out. I suspect that it was from the way that Bill Clinton conducted military operations. He was a pussy. Espescially the business with Somalia. I think that if we had been tougher on Adide and not ran away with our tails between our legs, Saddam would not have played hardball with the US.
What you're ALSO saying is "true Americans are only the 30% of Americans that STILL think the war was a good idea".
Which would make "true Americans" a minority of Americans. But Americanism is defined by MOST Americans. So...
Yeah. You're incoherent. And here I thought talking to you might not be a total waste of my time.
Americanism is defined by most americans. However, it is not defined as most americans living right now. Instead it goes to our values as a people. There are two competing American ideals. One is the ugly side of America and it is called isolationism. The other is sacrifice for ideals.
Sometimes we fight wars like the Spanish American War where we fight for our ideals. This is the good Americanism.
However, we were not supposed to have to worry about that stuff anymore. During WWII the United Nations was formed to combat the Axis. This big alliance was supposed to turn the world into a place where people would not be tortured or oppressed because of their religious or political views. However, the UN has not lived up to our expectations and it is time that we realize that you are not going to get anywhere in the area of enforcing human rights treaties when you have communist china on the security counsel. It was amazing that the UN was able to do much at all given the fact that the red chinese were given China's seat at the security counsel.
The UN has encouraged the isolationist monster to rear its ugly head again. Why should America make the world better, that is the job of the UN? Well the problem is that the UN is pretty much powerless.
The real America is the one that you see helping the Iraqis. The real America is the one that is giving food to the starving North Koreans even though they hate us. The real America is the one that went into Panama and removed a drug dealing dictator from power. The real America is the one that went into Vietnam and said, "We will help you defeat the communists!"
Anybody who opposes this by wanting to retreat into isolationism is the devils best friend for he fluorishes when men of good conscience do nothing. That is not the real America.
It is true that George Washington was an isolationist. However, at that time it made sense. We were not a superpower. In fact we were the opposite. We were a heavily indebted brand new nation with an enormous border and frontier and hardly any military resources to ensure our own defense.
Now we are the superpower. How we define our period of American greatness is up to us. Will we use our power to overthrow oppression and tyranny or will we continue as if we were still in the cold war and coddle up to any regime that advances our interests? I for one am proud that we are standing up to the world's bullies and criminal regimes.
I called the democrats and antiwar people Eurotrash and not Americans because the EU powers (with the exception of the UK and Spain and maybe some others) were in bed with Saddam with the whole oild for food scandal. They are the ones that resisted this war. I do not see any EU folks besides Britain and Spain who are willing to fight for ideals as opposed to mere self interest.
The EU would not even take care of the problems in their own backyard during the war and attrocities in Bosnia.
If you think we have done enough in Iraq. I can accept that argument. I do not agree but I still respect it. However, saying that our sacrifice was pointless or that Iraqis were better off under Saddam is disgusting and insulting to the memory of our war dead. Have any of you who oppose the war read the British white papers on the state of human rights in Iraq on the eve of the war? I did and it convinced me that we would be doing God's work if we liberated the poor wretches from the casket prison and other torture prisons that Saddam's regime used.
Have mistakes been made? Yes. There were some mistakes but we will always find problems in any human endeavor because we are a government of the people and not of the angels. I am ashamed of what we did with the waterboarding. It has been shut down and it is a dishonor. However, it is not as bad as the way that the French tortured during their war in Algeria.
We are not a quasi-evil nation like France yet we hear criticism from them all the time on the war. America has our faults from time to time but we never boarded any greenpeace vessles with navy frogmen troops. Our torture of terrorists was mild compared to what they did. It is no excuse for what we did but France does not have the right to criticize us.
Isloationism was around before WWII but fortunately God used us in his plan to defeat the Axis. We are the unwilling warriors but when we draw our sword the evil doers should tremble. For this reason when ever we draw it we should only sheathe it after we have achieved victory. Anything less and we lose credibility which is the most important element of national defense because if the enemy knows you will fight back and not quit until he is defeated he will not attack you. That is why it is said that the best swords remain sheathed.
Think that is all just a bunch of cliche babble? Saddam admitted in prison tha the never thought that the US would really attack him. All the nonsense with Hans Blick and UNSCOM was aimed at persuading Iran that he was further along with his WMD program than they realized.
Why did Saddam not think we were serious? I do not know but I would love to find out. I suspect that it was from the way that Bill Clinton conducted military operations. He was a pussy. Espescially the business with Somalia. I think that if we had been tougher on Adide and not ran away with our tails between our legs, Saddam would not have played hardball with the US.