NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7369851.stm

Austrian 'hid daughter in cellar'

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The house where the man and his daughter lived

A 73-year-old Austrian is under arrest on suspicion of hiding his daughter in a cellar for 24 years and fathering seven children with her, police say.

The existence of the woman, believed missing since 1984 and now 42, emerged after a teenage child fell ill and had to be taken to hospital.

Both the woman and teenage girl are receiving medical treatment and the other children are in care.

A police investigation in Amstetten, Lower Austria Province, is continuing.

The suspect, named only as Josef F, was arrested on suspicion of incest and keeping his daughter in captivity. He has not responded to the charges against him, police say.

One of the children the man allegedly fathered died in infancy, police believe.

Three children, including the 19-year-old, were allegedly kept in the cellar with their mother while the other three reportedly grew up with their grandparents.

DNA tests will be taken to establish whether Josef F was indeed their father.

Placed in care

The alleged crimes came to light after the teenager, named as Kerstin F, was dropped off at the Amstetten hospital last weekend.

Finding Kerstin seriously ill, doctors appealed for her mother, who at that time was assumed to be missing, to come forward to provide more details about her medical history.

Josef F allegedly then released the mother and two other children from the cellar, telling his wife Rosemarie that she had chosen to return home, police say.

It was not immediately clear how police were alerted.

The mother, named as Elisabeth F, has been receiving medical and psychological treatment since being discovered.

She appeared "greatly disturbed" psychologically during questioning and agreed to talk only after authorities assured her that she would no longer have to have contact with her father, and that her children would be taken care of, police added.

The six children are three boys and three girls aged between five and 20.

Police spokesman Franz Polzer told reporters they had been taken to a safe location.

"They are all in psychological care in a secure institution in a clinic here in this area," he said.

"They are being cared for individually - those between 12 and 16 years of age who grew up with their grandparents, and two boys who, when they came out yesterday with their mother, saw the daylight for the first time in their lives."

The three children who grew up with their grandparents were left at birth outside the house, the first accompanied by a note from Elisabeth in which she said she could not care for the baby herself.

All three were taken in by Josef and his wife as foster or adopted children, police said.

'Dead baby burnt'

The police issued a statement giving details of the alleged abuses Elisabeth recounted to them.

She said she had been sexually abused by her father since the age of 11.

Josef allegedly lured her into the cellar of their house in Amstetten on 28 August 1984, drugging and handcuffing her before locking her up.

It was assumed she had disappeared voluntarily when her parents received a letter from her asking them not to search for her.

"Abused continuously during the 24-year-long imprisonment", Elisabeth bore six children while a seventh, one of a set of twins, died soon after birth.

The dead baby was allegedly taken out of the cellar and burnt by Josef.

Elisabeth said Josef had provided her and three of her children, who were locked up along with her, with clothing and food.

His wife Rosemarie had allegedly not been aware of what was going on.

The discovery of another Austrian woman, who was held captive in a cellar by an abductor for more than eight years, gripped the country in 2006.

Natascha Kampusch finally escaped from her kidnapper, 44-year-old Wolfgang Priklopil, who killed himself shortly afterwards.

Ms Kampusch was abducted at the age of 10 in 1998 and held in a small, windowless cellar beneath Priklopil's garage in the commuter town of Strasshof, 25km (15 miles) outside Vienna.

Oh my goodness...if true, this is absolutely horrible. What could possibly possess someone to lock their daughter up for twenty-four years and have kids with her?

Those wacky heterosexuals... tsk, tsk.

Those wacky heterosexuals... tsk, tsk.

Can't trust them that is for sure.

thats f*cked up.

dunno what else to add.

Can't trust them that is for sure.

Testify, sister! I mean, they can't even get their children spayed or neutered before they molest them. See where it gets them? To a place so lacklustre.

I was reading this story on CNN. The thing is that this guy also had a family living upstairs. So how does one have a family upstairs of 7 people and have one downstairs with 7 people? How does the supposed normal family upstairs not know about the family locked in the basement?

Those wacky heterosexuals... tsk, tsk.

Oh, puh-leeze. If homosexuality was more common, then there would be homosexuals doing the same thing.

Testify, sister! I mean, they can't even get their children spayed or neutered before they molest them. See where it gets them? To a place so lacklustre.

Just when you think Humanity has already sunk to new lows these type of stories come out.

Oh, puh-leeze. If homosexuality was more common, then there would be homosexuals doing the same thing.

Haven't heard of a family of homosexuals locked in a basement before. However I suppose I could be proved wrong.

Oh, puh-leeze. If homosexuality was more common, then there would be homosexuals doing the same thing.

Yeah, but we would be doing it better. You don't see no children spawned by those priests and altar boys, do you? Molestation should be a lateral tango, not a vertical square dance.

I have serious doubts about the mother's claim that she had no idea what was going on. Much like the townspeople near concentration camps during the Holocaust claiming they had no idea that thousands of people were being killed or worked to death a few miles away. Wouldn't any reasonable person be suspicious if their daughter left home abruptly, returning unseen every few years to drop a baby off at your doorstep? Didn't she ever wonder why the cellar was locked year-round? I presume she wasn't allowed near it... Either she was a participant or bystander in this, or she just didn't want to know. What hideous people.

Haven't heard of a family of homosexuals locked in a basement before.

Depends on how you define "family". There are a lot of people willing to pay good money to be part of something like that.

I have serious doubts about the mother's claim that she had no idea what was going on. Much like the townspeople near concentration camps during the Holocaust claiming they had no idea that thousands of people were being killed or worked to death a few miles away. Wouldn't any reasonable person be suspicious if their daughter left home abruptly, returning unseen every few years to drop a baby off at your doorstep? Didn't she ever wonder why the cellar was locked year-round? I presume she wasn't allowed near it... Either she was a participant or bystander in this, or she just didn't want to know. What hideous people.

I have a feeling more than one is going to jail here. The mother had to know. If she didn't then she needs to go to jail for her pure ignorance.

Depends on how you define "family". There are a lot of people willing to pay good money to be part of something like that.

I am sure. I mean the genetic kind not the "Rainbow Coalition" kind of family.

Yeah, but we would be doing it better. You don't see no children spawned by those priests and altar boys, do you? Molestation should be a lateral tango, not a vertical square dance.

I know you're joking, but as one of the millions of people in the world who've been molested, it's a joke that's difficult to stomach.

I am sure. I mean the genetic kind not the "Rainbow Coalition" kind of family.

As I said, lacklustre. Genetic families are so 18th century.

I know you're joking, but as one of the millions of people in the world who've been molested, it's a joke that's difficult to stomach.

And one would think your stomach quite resilient as a result. :\

And one would think your stomach quite resilient as a result. :\

And people say you don't have a sense of humor.....

I know you're joking, but as one of the millions of people in the world who've been molested, it's a joke that's difficult to stomach.

This is the net. You should have an iron stomache to play.

And one would think your stomach quite resilient as a result. :\

You are a seriously screwed up and hateful little prick.

And people say you don't have a sense of humor.....

There's a reason people are known for their fatuity.

This is the net. You should have an iron stomache to play.

And I mostly do. I wasn't saying Fass should apologize or be reprimanded or anything like that. I was simply--politely, I may add--pointing out to him a fact I thought he might have overlooked, that many people were molested as children and might be sensitive to his comment. I thought I was allowed to do that, or is there a list of things I can and cannot disagree with?

You are a seriously screwed up and hateful little prick.

Not defending Fass however you did reveal something very personal about yourself. Next time if you don't want the possibility of someone commenting negatively then I would suggest keeping the kind of thing to yourself.

You are a seriously screwed up and hateful little prick.

I wasn't screwed up, that was you apparently, but hasn't it been long enough for you to be able to laugh at it? That's the best way to heal and deal with these unmentionable horrors, I find.

And I mostly do. I wasn't saying Fass should apologize or be reprimanded or anything like that. I was simply--politely, I may add--pointing out to him a fact I thought he might have overlooked, that many people were molested as children and might be sensitive to his comment. I thought I was allowed to do that, or is there a list of things I can and cannot disagree with?

Of course however not everyone views things as you may. So the sensitivity bit is relative to the poster. If you don't want to hear the possibility of a negative response to such a personal issue then as I said earlier keep it to yourself.

Edit: You are entitled to your opinions and by all means post as you want. However don't be surprised at what kind of responses you will get on the net.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7369851.stm



Oh my goodness...if true, this is absolutely horrible. What could possibly possess someone to lock their daughter up for twenty-four years and have kids with her?

More to the point, how could his wife, this girl's mother, have NEVER gone down to the basement in 24 years?

Not defending Fass however you did reveal something very personal about yourself. Next time if you don't want the possibility of someone commenting negatively then I would suggest keeping the kind of thing to yourself.

You're right. I thought he might honestly not have thought through his words in that way and tried to make a human connection and politely tell him how it made me, and how it might make others, feel. Unfortunately, I am genuine to a fault sometimes and don't always anticipate that others might not be. (This isn't snarkiness, I promise).

More to the point, how could his wife, this girl's mother, have NEVER gone down to the basement in 24 years?

Basements are creepy. They're made creepier by strange noises emanating from them. I know I never went down to our basement. Who knows what sort of satanic perversions I missed out on?

You're right. I thought he might honestly not have thought through his words in that way and tried to make a human connection and politely tell him how it made me, and how it might make others, feel. Unfortunately, I am genuine to a fault sometimes and don't always anticipate that others might not be. (This isn't snarkiness, I promise).

One rule I apply to the net and real life - the monkeysphere concept. This allows people to make comments and actions to relative strangers that they would never do to their monkeysphere.

http://www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html

I wasn't screwed up, that was you apparently, but hasn't it been long enough for you to be able to laugh at it? That's the best way to heal and deal with these unmentionable horrors, I find.

I apologize for calling you a prick. I should know better than to bring my personal feelings to anything, but I am human and I slip.

Yeah, but we would be doing it better. You don't see no children spawned by those priests and altar boys, do you? Molestation should be a lateral tango, not a vertical square dance.

LOL

Haven't heard of a family of homosexuals locked in a basement before. However I suppose I could be proved wrong.

Most likely not. This happens quite rarely in heterosexuals and, considering that homosexuality is a minority (supposedly 1% of Americans and I'm not sure how that stacks up globally. Can I get better figures from someone on this?) it would be rarer still.

Yeah, but we would be doing it better. You don't see no children spawned by those priests and altar boys, do you? Molestation should be a lateral tango, not a vertical square dance.

Your people always did have better taste.

Basements are creepy. They're made creepier by strange noises emanating from them. I know I never went down to our basement. Who knows what sort of satanic perversions I missed out on?

Is it possible that I am braver than you, sir? I visit my basement daily. Nothing creepier there than the washing machine, a clothes line, and storage space, in my experience. Some are even furnished!

Is it possible that I am braver than you, sir? I visit my basement daily. Nothing creepier there than the washing machine, a clothes line, and storage space, in my experience. Some are even furnished!

Yes, but what do you hide behind that locked door in the corner? Bad kids from school? Maybe pets that you neglected? Former fiance? You are amongst friends here you can spill the beans..... ;) Let the truth set you free.

Yes, but what do you hide behind that locked door in the corner? Bad kids from school? Maybe pets that you neglected? Former fiance? You are amongst friends here you can spill the beans..... ;) Let the truth set you free.

Deated NSGers.

I apologize for calling you a prick. I should know better than to bring my personal feelings to anything, but I am human and I slip.

Errare humanum est, ignoscere imaginarium.

Yes, but what do you hide behind that locked door in the corner? Bad kids from school? Maybe pets that you neglected? Former fiance? You are amongst friends here you can spill the beans..... ;) Let the truth set you free.

Uh... that door?


(RPGs and comics).

:cool:

Those wacky heterosexuals... tsk, tsk.

I resent your heterophobic comments bigot.

Deated NSGers.

I am more inclined to think those are in shallow grave somewhere.

Errare humanum est, ignoscere imaginarium.

Is that a comment on forgiveness or on divinity?

Uh... that door?


(RPGs and comics).

:cool:

Rocket Propelled Grenades? You are a terrorist?!

Is that a comment on forgiveness or on divinity?

Divine forgiveness....

Is it possible that I am braver than you, sir? I visit my basement daily. Nothing creepier there than the washing machine, a clothes line, and storage space, in my experience. Some are even furnished!

That is the epitome of creepiness!

Is it possible that I am braver than you, sir?

You most certainly are more butch, if that counts for something, and in this case it does.

I visit my basement daily. Nothing creepier there than the washing machine, a clothes line, and storage space, in my experience. Some are even furnished!

Ah, we had all that in the attic. Some say it's because of the folly of putting a room in the freezing ground instead of where all the warmth wafted eventually, but now I'm starting to waver and think of my mother as a dungeon mistress, a torturess aliased "Amarula" with a Ph.D. in sexual pain. Mind you, still better than what I used to consider her as.

I resent your heterophobic comments bigot.

I resent that you think I'd resent your resenting.

I resent your heterophobic comments bigot.

If one were gay and heterophobic, it's quite a bit more justified than homophobia. Practically rational considering that in whole countries heterosexuals are permitted to murder homosexuals in the streets.

You know, I've never been one to condemn joking about even the most serious subjects. However, many of these comments have been of extreemly poor taste. I can't stop you, and I wouldn't if I could, but I think less of you.

About this story, its a tragedy and an outrage. There's nothing more to be said. It's surely too much to hope for that the victims of this sick man could ever have halfway normal lives, but I wish it anyways. Let's hope that justice in any case is swift, and let's hope the rest of the family doesnt't just get to plead ignorance and walk away. If they knew anything, and kept silence, they bear the same responsibility.

but I think less of you.

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/sad021.gif

Wasn't there another case like this in Austria a little while back? I don't know if it involved sexual abuse, but it involved some one being locked up for years.
The worst ones might be those where someone locks their kid up since they were a baby. Those children don't even know anything of the outside world. They're feral.:(

Oh, puh-leeze. If homosexuality was more common, then there would be homosexuals doing the same thing.

I didn't know that homosexuals were capable of having children through sex with each other.

Sad, really sad. :(

I didn't know that homosexuals were capable of having children through sex with each other.

Clearly, you haven't read enough fan fiction.

thats f*cked up.

dunno what else to add.

Pretty much sums up my opinion.

I didn't know that homosexuals were capable of having children through sex with each other.

I actually meant more along the lines of keeping sexual slaves trapped in basements and not so much on the incest thing.

The Government seems to agree. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5VNe9NTOxA&eurl=http://www.cracked.com/article_16051_10-most-disturbing-psas-from-around-world.html)

Those wondering about this, some more details have emerged:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7370285.stm

Now hey, I'm as much in favor of keeping a girl tied up as much as the next dom guy, but this is decidedly fucked up.

This is sad and sickening beyond words.
To lock up one's own child of 11 for 24 years is just so so fucked up. :(

This is sad and sickening beyond words.
To lock up one's own child of 11 for 24 years is just so so fucked up. :(

11 was when he started abusing her sexually. She wasn't actually locked up until a few years after that. She's 42 now.

11 was when he started abusing her sexually. She wasn't actually locked up until a few years after that. She's 42 now.Doesn't make it any better.
The man should be hanged at once.

If one were gay and heterophobic, it's quite a bit more justified than homophobia. Practically rational considering that in whole countries heterosexuals are permitted to murder homosexuals in the streets.

So now bigotry is fine as long as it's the other side who's bigoted. Nice. Hypocrite.

I resent that you think I'd resent your resenting.

Whatever, bigot, think what you must to make your hatred seem justified.

So now bigotry is fine as long as it's the other side who's bigoted. Nice. Hypocrite.

I wasn't talking about bigotry. I was talking about gay people being afraid of straight people. Given that to this day most countries in this world are dangerous to gays, and discrimination against homosexuals is codified by the heterosexuals who make the rules, I'd say it's a completely rational fear.

Or were blacks bigots for fearing oppression by white people 100 years ago?

Whatever, bigot, think what you must to make your hatred seem justified.

Whether one believe Fass a bigot or not, I believe you won't evidence to support the conclusion in this thread. He's taking a piss.

If one were gay and heterophobic, it's quite a bit more justified than homophobia. Practically rational considering that in whole countries heterosexuals are permitted to murder homosexuals in the streets.

What kind of barbaric country do you live in? Round here we murder 'em in the back yard.

Personally, I have to agree with a friend from high school: straight men shouldn't have issues with gay guys, they should have issues with lesbians. Gay guys mean less competition, lesbians mean less of a pool to draw from.

Wow. That must have been pretty kinky.

What kind of barbaric country do you live in? Round here we murder 'em in the back yard.

Personally, I have to agree with a friend from high school: straight men shouldn't have issues with gay guys, they should have issues with lesbians. Gay guys mean less competition, lesbians mean less of a pool to draw from.
Hey, I used to have an issues with lesbians....

Then I grew up. :p :D

Hey, I used to have an issues with lesbians....

Then I grew up. :p :D

They all come around eventually. ;) Though I can't claim much credit, I'm only half gay. :p

Whether one believe Fass a bigot or not, I believe you won't evidence to support the conclusion in this thread. He's taking a piss.

???

???

e.g. You lose.

???

This is an international forum. Look up "taking a piss" or "taking the piss".

If one were gay and heterophobic, it's quite a bit more justified than homophobia. Practically rational considering that in whole countries heterosexuals are permitted to murder homosexuals in the streets.

"I'm not a bigot, I'm black."

I think that defense doesn't fly at all.

I resent that you think I'd resent your resenting.
Might need a new shovel for your hole ;)
The sad fact, that a few people have turned this thread into a spectacle, is proof of their social imbalance. I read a post by someone who had been molested, and who had found this thread discomforting, yet you highly intelligent people overlooked this, and continued with your "take it lightly" attitude.
Not everyone wants to read your "highly evolved" thoughts, and off topic comments, and since freedom of speech is readily available, then common sense should be to. :)
Im sure you will come up with a way to molest my words.. All I can say, is have fun, I wont be back to nurture your rant.
bye bye :)

"I'm not a bigot, I'm black."

I think that defense doesn't fly at all.

We're not talking about bigotry. We're talking about whether or not it makes sense for homosexuals who suffer both individual and governmental discrimination in our country should be afraid of the people who support that.

We're not talking about a minority of people. We're talking about a majority in our country. If you're gay, you have to resign from office in the US. There has been widespread consideration over AMENDING the constitution to codify that discrimination. Gays are not a protected class like other minorities. Gays can be booted from the military LEGALLY for simply admitting to their "deviance". We're not talking about bigotry. We're talking about a rational fear of kind of harm that is perfectly legal and totally real.

We're not talking about saying it's okay to say it's all heterosexuals. But it is completely rational to take the stance that gay people need to protect themselves from this discrimination.

I'm not talking about being a bigot. I'm talking about being oppressed. And that gays are oppressed in the US is not debateable. Not if you're remotely aware of reality.

"I'm not a bigot, I'm black."

I think that defense doesn't fly at all.

If you're unable to address an argument, just start your post with that. Strawmen don't help you. I was talking about "heterophobia", which is virtually impossible, since such a fear would be rationally justified. Similarly it wouldn't be Islamophobia to be a Christian afraid of Muslims in pre-2002 Afghanistan. Being afraid of a grouup that actively discriminates against you is rational.

We're not talking about bigotry. We're talking about whether or not it makes sense for homosexuals who suffer both individual and governmental discrimination in our country should be afraid of the people who support that.

Fass wasn't referring to any individual or government though. He was referring to an entire demographic which I would imagine runs into the billions of people.

Is every single heterosexual actively or passively discriminating against gay people? Clearly not, otherwise there wouldn't be heterosexuals working for equality rights for homosexuals. And some people don't care either way. But somehow it's alright to lump them in with every homophobic person?

Fass gets a hissy fit when someone mentions homosexuals as a group in a negative light, yet he can't be held to the same standard?

Remember that critic some time back regarding Firefly? How she claimed it was written by a rapist and what not? I certainly do not deny that women are oppressed in many instances around the world, yet it does not magically grant any credence to this woman's words, twisted as they are to fit her world view, where men can only be oppressors and rapists? Are you saying her ideas were valid? That's the same thing going on here. Less vitriol without a doubt, most likely delivered in a light hearted manner, but the principle is the same.

The rest of your argument attributes things I haven't said, so it's moot.

You are a seriously screwed up and hateful little prick.

Yet he is exceedingly intelligent, and possess a rapier wit. The combination makes him one of my favorite NS'ers.

Fass wasn't referring to any individual or government though. He was referring to an entire demographic which I would imagine runs into the billions of people.

Fass was kidding around. I was talking about the term heterophobic, which is more than a bit nonsensical.

He gets a hissy fit when someone mentions homosexuals as a group in a negative light, yet he can't be held to the same standard?

I suspect he'd not have such a hissy fit if homosexuals were discriminating against heterosexuals in most of the world. However, there isn't a country in the world where homosexuals are dangerous or oppressive toward heterosexuals. Not a county. Not a city. Not a compound. Nowhere.

Remember that critic some time back regarding Firefly? How she claimed it was written by a rapist and what not? I certainly do not deny that women are oppressed in many instances around the world, yet it does not magically grant any credence to this woman's words, twisted as they are to fit her world view, where men can only be oppressors and rapists? That's the same thing going on here. Less vitriol without a doubt, most likely delivered in a light hearted manner, but the principle is the same.

The difference is that most men aren't rapists. Most men don't condone rape. And in the vast majority of the world rape is illegal. This is not true of discrimination and harm to homosexuals. The majority of the world supports discrimination against homosexuals. It's a basic tenet of the some of the largest religions in the world. It's accepted in even some of the more advanced countries in the world. And frankly unlike state condoned rape, there is little outrage over this fact.


The rest of your argument attributes things I haven't said, so it's moot.

It addresses why heterophobia wouldn't be irrational and why it's not bigotry. Perhaps you're not aware, but you replied to ME, not Fass. Please find the word "Fass" in the post you quoted? Or any post other than when I said he was kidding. It appears to be you that's struggling with who made what argument.

I wasn't defending Fass, by fact. As I mentioned earlier, there is an argument to made about Fass being a bigot. However, in this thread, he's entirely joking. Fass sometimes gets upset when people joke about gays. I think he's wrong to do so, but that's not what happened here.

If one were gay and heterophobic, it's quite a bit more justified than homophobia. Practically rational considering that in whole countries heterosexuals are permitted to murder homosexuals in the streets.

Since you're struggling, here's a reminder as to which post you were quoting in your reply. Notice the word "one" not the word "Fass". Let me know there is anything else I need to bold in order to help you understand what I said.

I suspect he'd not have such a hissy fit if homosexuals were discriminating against heterosexuals in most of the world. However, there isn't a country in the world where homosexuals are dangerous or oppressive toward heterosexuals. Not a county. Not a city. Not a compound. Nowhere.


You do realize this could translate to mean a claim that there are no homosexual criminals/murderers?


The difference is that most men aren't rapists. Most men don't condone rape. And in the vast majority of the world rape is illegal. This is not true of discrimination and harm to homosexuals. The majority of the world supports discrimination against homosexuals. It's a basic tenet of the some of the largest religions in the world. It's accepted in even some of the more advanced countries in the world. And frankly unlike state condoned rape, there is little outrage over this fact.

Of course this does seem to ignore the fact that there are people and nations working at the whole equality thing. But why credit them at all? Might as well lump them in with the whole "Heteros are out to kill you!" mentality. You see where this is going? It's merely replacing one phobia with another, all the while ignoring the efforts of others to help, so as to better play the victim card.


It addresses why heterophobia wouldn't be irrational and why it's not bigotry. Perhaps you're not aware, but you replied to ME, not Fass. Please find the word "Fass" in the post you quoted? Or any post other than when I said he was kidding. It appears to be you that's struggling with who made what argument.

I was referring to your reply against Marid, who had made a reply to Fass. I keep the sequence of events listed. In any event, this is way off topic, I'll drop the issue if you will. It won't go anywhere.

You do realize this could translate to mean a claim that there are no homosexual criminals/murderers?

No, we're not talking about heterosexual killing gays by coincidence. I'm talking about hate crimes. Again, do I have to highlight special words or can you just read what I write. Re-explaining each of my posts is degrading to us both.


Of course this does seem to ignore the fact that there are people and nations working at the whole equality thing. But why credit them at all? Might as well lump them in with the whole "Heteros are out to kill you!" mentality. You see where this is going? It's merely replacing one phobia with another, all the while ignoring the efforts of others to help, so as to better play the victim card.

No, it doesn't. It doesn't ignore them. It simply recognizes that, first, very few nations are even remotely successful on that front (a handful out of hundreds of nations in the world) and most are just replacing really grevious discrimination with lesser discrimination, like, don't ask/don't tell or seperate but equal solutions.

I didn't say "heteros are out to kill you". I said, it's entirely rational in a world where heterosexuals have the power in EVERY country of the world and where nearly EVERY country of the world has institutionalized discrimination to be afraid of that power. Phobias are irrational. Heterophobia is a misnomer.

I was referring to your reply against Marid, who had made a reply to Fass. I keep the sequence of events listed. In any event, this is way off topic, I'll drop the issue if you will. It won't go anywhere.
You mean my reply that he was kidding? Are you claiming he wasn't? He was taking a piss. You may not like the jokes but none of what he said was serious.

If you search around you'll see me criticizing Fass for bigotry. It wasn't a general defense. And again, since I have to continually explain, I'll quote myself...

Whether one believe Fass a bigot or not, I believe you won't evidence to support the conclusion in this thread. He's taking a piss.

Hmmm... it's almost like I qualified my response.

Since our friend here seems to enjoy beating around the bush, let me elaborate on his point:

He's not talking about discriminating against a group. He's talking about fearing discrimination FROM that group and reacting based on that fear. Given the oppression faced by homosexuals, that's a perfectly rational fear. The fear is justified.

What's not justified is acting in a bigoted manner because of that fear, which we all know. It's not what he was arguing though.

Since our friend here seems to enjoy beating around the bush, let me elaborate on his point:

He's not talking about discriminating against a group. He's talking about fearing discrimination FROM that group and reacting based on that fear. Given the oppression faced by homosexuals, that's a perfectly rational fear. The fear is justified.

What's not justified is acting in a bigoted manner because of that fear, which we all know. It's not what he was arguing though.

Well, to be honest, I hate body hair, but otherwise you're correct. I enjoy fencing. It's obvious that one can easily get my meaning since you did. My meaning is quite obvious as soon as people stop tying it to Fass.

Well, to be honest, I hate body hair, but otherwise you're correct. I enjoy fencing. It's obvious that one can easily get my meaning since you did. My meaning is quite obvious as soon as people stop tying it to Fass.

It's unfortunate that Fass is such a topic of discussion for everyone that automatically when any sort of debate or argument starts up because of something involving him, everyone assumes he is central to the argument itself, even when he's obviously not, as was the case here.

e.g. You lose.

Can you teach me to jump to strange conclusions as well as you do?

Can you teach me to jump to strange conclusions as well as you do?

S/he could teach you context. It's much easier to just sling around a couple of insults and take off.

This is an international forum. Look up "taking a piss" or "taking the piss".

You know, I actually thought you really meant "taking a piss", but it still made sense.

Yet he is exceedingly intelligent, and possess a rapier wit. The combination makes him one of my favorite NS'ers.

S'up Parkus, where you been?

Oh, right. Err, something snarky, mumble mumble.

Since our friend here seems to enjoy beating around the bush, let me elaborate on his point:

He's not talking about discriminating against a group. He's talking about fearing discrimination FROM that group and reacting based on that fear. Given the oppression faced by homosexuals, that's a perfectly rational fear. The fear is justified.

What's not justified is acting in a bigoted manner because of that fear, which we all know. It's not what he was arguing though.

/\ That /\

I am more inclined to think those are in shallow grave somewhere.

Actually, it turns out Kat is wildly attracted to spammers. One of those weird love-hate fetishes, yeah? So she keeps them all locked up as sex slaves. I hear this one guy was down there for like, 37 years. True story.

S/he could teach you context. It's much easier to just sling around a couple of insults and take off.

I admit I was a bit rude to you in some of my posts, but man, your posts really didn't make much sense.

I admit I was a bit rude to you in some of my posts, but man, your posts really didn't make much sense.

Well, I'm not going to teach you English. However, if you'd like to teach it to yourself, look up the term "taking a piss" or "taking the piss". Hint: it doesn't mean "to pee".

I've been speaking English for 33 years. Several non-natives have understood what I've said, so I'm thinking the problem is on your side of the internet.

I've been speaking English for 33 years. Several non-natives have understood what I've said, so I'm thinking the problem is on your side of the internet.

I can corroborate what Jocabia has said here.

One time we were Thailand, and Jocabia, who is an accomplished and adept whoremonger of the highest order, managed to communicate to a 19 year old dancer that he wanted a rusty trombone and even managed to negotiate payment by credit card despite an adamant policy on the part of the young lady to only accept American dollars.

I can corroborate what Jocabia has said here.

One time we were Thailand, and Jocabia, who is an accomplished and adept whoremonger of the highest order, managed to communicate to a 19 year old dancer that he wanted a rusty trombone and even managed to negotiate payment by credit card despite an adamant policy on the part of the young lady to only accept American dollars.

She overcharged me, but I don't think that was due to a misunderstanding.

And Sinuhue understands me and she's Native American. Think about that.

She overcharged me, but I don't think that was due to a misunderstanding.

And Sinuhue understands me and she's Native American. Think about that.

You're a complicated man, and nobody understands you but an indiginous woman.

You're a complicated man, and nobody understands you but an indiginous woman.

I had more places I can go with that, but I feel like too much of an ass even if I'm satirizing.

I had more places I can go with that, but I feel like too much of an ass even if I'm satirizing.

Who's the NS'er who won't cop out, even when there's spamming all about?

Jocabia.

More to the point, how could his wife, this girl's mother, have NEVER gone down to the basement in 24 years?

Or never noticed the hubby bring down food and clothes. Never noticed how some of the household budget just disappeared (though he could have lied about his income).

Who's the NS'er who won't cop out, even when there's spamming all about?

Jocabia.

They say that Jocabia's a bad mother-
"Shut yo mouth!"
But I'm talking 'bout Jocabia
"Then I can dig it"

"I'm not a bigot, I'm black."

I think that defense doesn't fly at all.

Depends. If the actual phrase uttered was "I'm not bigoted against white people, I am black" by someone living 150 years or so ago it seems quite fair.

You are not bigoted if almost everyone of the disliked group actually conforms to the negative image you have of them.

And Sinuhue understands me and she's Native American. Think about that.
Namoya kipis’kwatin, môniyawatim. 'Moya kinisitohtâtin! Kôhkôs.

Pretty much sums up my opinion.

Yup.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7369851.stm



Oh my goodness...if true, this is absolutely horrible. What could possibly possess someone to lock their daughter up for twenty-four years and have kids with her?

This is just sad. And still, some people go and say incest should be accepted. Take a look at this sick-o, keeping his poor daughter in a cellar for 24 years just to have kids with her. It´s sick.:(

why does this sound like one of those horror movies???????

why does this sound like one of those horror movies???????

Because... it is!!:eek:

Namoya kipis’kwatin, môniyawatim. 'Moya kinisitohtâtin! Kôhkôs.

I said you understand me, not that I understand you. :p

So what is the suitable punishment for such a depraived person?

I say they crush his... you know...

This is just sad. And still, some people go and say incest should be accepted. Take a look at this sick-o, keeping his poor daughter in a cellar for 24 years just to have kids with her. It´s sick.:(

That's because there is a difference between consensual incest and this.

That's because there is a difference between consensual incest and this.

Quite. Note the "locking up for 24 years and raping repeatedly" part.

Well, I'm not going to teach you English. However, if you'd like to teach it to yourself, look up the term "taking a piss" or "taking the piss". Hint: it doesn't mean "to pee".

I've been speaking English for 33 years. Several non-natives have understood what I've said, so I'm thinking the problem is on your side of the internet.

"taking a piss" (at least where I live) DOES mean "to pee"
"taking the piss" is a different expression.

Namoya kipis’kwatin, môniyawatim. 'Moya kinisitohtâtin! Kôhkôs.
Translation:
No more of you keeping squat, money I got it. More of your skinny toe-tapping! Kissy-kissy.

I really shouldn't have read /b/ after this. I can't take this disgusting tragedy serious anymore :(

"taking a piss" (at least where I live) DOES mean "to pee"
"taking the piss" is a different expression.

Not the way I used it. It's an international forum. Where you live is irrelevant. Where I live "rocking the house" means "to eat a lot". It would be silly for me to expect that you meant that "Pearl Jam eats a lot" when you say "Pearl Jam was rocking the house" just because it means that where I live.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=taking+a+piss

Where I live "rocking the house" means "to eat a lot". It would be silly for me to expect that you meant that "Pearl Jam eats a lot" when you say "Pearl Jam was rocking the house" just because it means that where I live.
If you had never heard any other usage, of course that is what you would assume.

oh wow that is messed up

If you had never heard any other usage, of course that is what you would assume.

Yeah, and I'd be wrong.

There are several "motivational posters" on 4chan on this and theyre fucking hilarious.

So what is the suitable punishment for such a depraived person?

I say they crush his... you know...
The man is obviously very fucked up, and as such he deserves compassion and treatment, not some medieval punishment. That someone could even seriously contemplate this is a marker of a mind severely damaged, he might even have been sexually abused as a child himself.

The man is obviously very fucked up, and as such he deserves compassion and treatment, not some medieval punishment. That someone could even seriously contemplate this is a marker of a mind severely damaged, he might even have been sexually abused as a child himself.

Wait wait wait...


He held is daughter in a small lightless room in his basement where he raped her for several years, and had at least 6 incestious children with her, and we should feel sorry for him?


No.

More to the point, how could his wife, this girl's mother, have NEVER gone down to the basement in 24 years?
That was my first thought. But when I was in Germany at Xmas I was amazed at the underground labyrinth that are their basements. They're not a room under the house. Some of them stretch right out under the lawn. One place we stayed had a full-sized sauna and steam room down there, along with a room for bikes, a laundry room and two other storage rooms.
Look at the place he had them locked up in- the 'cell' was 60 sq metres. That's 650 sq feet. A pretty decent-sized apartment.
Germanics are odd like that. I think they're descended from moles.

Still, that said. The wife must have been in total denial. Daughter just disappears, followed by a note telling them not to look for her which the mother accepts. Hubby often and regularly goes to the basement with food and clothing (I know he kept it quiet, but still after 24 years, you think she would have noticed him lugging food down there once or twice). New born babies start turning up on the doorstep with note from daughter telling them to look after the babe, and still Mum doesn't look for her.
I can only conclude that it wasn't just the daughter being abused here. The mother must have been psychologically bullied into accepting all this.

The father must have been a extremely domineering control freak. Considering there were 4 people in the basement, ranging in age from 15 to 42, one can't but wonder why they didn't attack him when he went down there.

All I'm saying is see, us Americans aren't the only ones with sickos like this!

Those wacky heterosexuals... tsk, tsk.

I see your crazy sick Austrian guy and raise you a Jeffrey Dahmer and a John Wayne Gacy.


Those wacky homosexuals...

That was my first thought. But when I was in Germany at Xmas I was amazed at the underground labyrinth that are their basements. They're not a room under the house. Some of them stretch right out under the lawn. One place we stayed had a full-sized sauna and steam room down there, along with a room for bikes, a laundry room and two other storage rooms.
Look at the place he had them locked up in- the 'cell' was 60 sq metres. That's 650 sq feet. A pretty decent-sized apartment.
Germanics are odd like that. I think they're descended from moles.

Still, that said. The wife must have been in total denial. Daughter just disappears, followed by a note telling them not to look for her which the mother accepts. Hubby often and regularly goes to the basement with food and clothing (I know he kept it quiet, but still after 24 years, you think she would have noticed him lugging food down there once or twice). New born babies start turning up on the doorstep with note from daughter telling them to look after the babe, and still Mum doesn't look for her.
I can only conclude that it wasn't just the daughter being abused here. The mother must have been psychologically bullied into accepting all this.

The father must have been a extremely domineering control freak. Considering there were 4 people in the basement, ranging in age from 15 to 42, one can't but wonder why they didn't attack him when he went down there.

from what I read in the local newspaper, the husband was pretty authoritarian with his wife and kids and he had forbidden her to go down there.

I believe there was also mention of a hidden door down there as well. His family may not have even been able to find them.