NationStates Jolt Archive

Seems like Rhode Island has become fed up with illegal immigration and is taking action the Federal Government refuses to take. In addition to telling the State Police to take action against illegal immigrants they state is considering other actions such as making it a felony to rent to illegal immigrants and make English the official state language.

Illegal Immigrants, Partly Blamed for State Budget Crisis, Face Crackdown in Rhode Island
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352706,00.html

Last year Oklahoma passed a stiff anti-illegal immigrant law and the result has been a decline in the number of illegals in the state and an increase (yes I said increase) in employment. The state legislature is considering a bill this year to make English the official language in the state.

Maybe, just maybe the Federal Government will wake up, start enforcing the immigration laws, and come up with some kind of a workable work permit program for foreign workers.

Only 48 more to go.

Good for them. If only the dumbshits in congress would get the balls to fix the problem.

We need to fix the immigration system, but I think the first step is to boot the illegals to the back of the line first. I like the legal immigrants. I've worked with them. I just dislike the ones who show a blatant disregard for the law from the instant they enter the US.

The months of waiting for paperwork to clear the bureaucracy is absurd, though.

Only 48 more to go.

Quite a few less. As mentioned in the article 17 states have already been authorized to enforce federal immigration laws.

Seems like Rhode Island has become fed up with illegal immigration and is taking action the Federal Government refuses to take. In addition to telling the State Police to take action against illegal immigrants they state is considering other actions such as making it a felony to rent to illegal immigrants and make English the official state language.

Illegal Immigrants, Partly Blamed for State Budget Crisis, Face Crackdown in Rhode Island
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352706,00.html

Last year Oklahoma passed a stiff anti-illegal immigrant law and the result has been a decline in the number of illegals in the state and an increase (yes I said increase) in employment. The state legislature is considering a bill this year to make English the official language in the state.

Maybe, just maybe the Federal Government will wake up, start enforcing the immigration laws, and come up with some kind of a workable work permit program for foreign workers.

I may be slightly bias on this one, seeing as my bf's brother was killed by an illegal immigrant, but I hope that every state enacts something like this (and in turn, the federal government).

IMMIGRANTS OUT

*looks shifty*

Hm. And there I was thinking that right wingers would generally support free movement of labour. And, for that matter, be in favour of the go-getting spirit required to leave you current country, and, at reasonable personal danger, travel to another one in search of a better life.

Obviously not though.

Since when does Rhode Island have to worry about illegal immigrants? What, are they sneaking in from the Canadian border? Because I've got trouble imagining anyone living in Canada would actually want to immigrate here legally or no.

Seriously though, the only way you're going to truly stop illegal immigration from Mexico is to get the corrupt government fixed and improve its economy to where the Mexicans don't feel they need to come over here to make more money and improve their families' lives.

That or somehow divert the money from the Iraq quagmire into border patrol and enforcement and repeal the law allowing for natural born citizenry. Prohibition is just one historical example of how cracking down on something simply drives it further underground and some Mexicans don't care if they get caught and deported as long their children are born on US soil, and the crackdown is simply going to make it more profitable for smugglers. You're also going to have to apply severe penalties to companies and/or people caught using illegal labor since most of the time they only get a slap on the wrist and even willingly exploit the labor knowing this.

Hm. And there I was thinking that right wingers would generally support free movement of labour. And, for that matter, be in favour of the go-getting spirit required to leave you current country, and, at reasonable personal danger, travel to another one in search of a better life.

Obviously not though.

There's more to it than just that. I'm all for someone leaving a country where they have no hope, and coming here. But like I said, I may be slightly bias, because the one illegal immigrant that I've dealt with used a bunch of fake names, stole his brother's license and used that name as well, then got drunk and decided to run his car over my bf's brother a few times, knowing that he had hit him. (If you would like an example of why I think the way I do)

Anyways, if you go through the proper channels and options in becoming a US citizen (granted, I'm not familiar with them), then do so. If you plan on coming here, don't hide from the government...

Just a side note that I don't claim to be a right-winger (to which you responded to specifically). I just happened to have a right-wing stance on this issue.

There's more to it than just that. I'm all for someone leaving a country where they have no hope, and coming here. But like I said, I may be slightly bias, because the one illegal immigrant that I've dealt with used a bunch of fake names, stole his brother's license and used that name as well, then got drunk and decided to run his car over my bf's brother a few times, knowing that he had hit him. (If you would like an example of why I think the way I do)

Anyways, if you go through the proper channels and options in becoming a US citizen (granted, I'm not familiar with them), then do so. If you plan on coming here, don't hide from the government...

Just a side note that I don't claim to be a right-winger (to which you responded to specifically). I just happened to have a right-wing stance on this issue.

I understand what you mean. The bus at my school that I ride (I got off the bus 10 minutes before)was hit by an Illegal Immigrant that ran a stop sign at about 70 mph, knocking it on its side, killing 4 students, I knew all of them.

Since when does Rhode Island have to worry about illegal immigrants? What, are they sneaking in from the Canadian border? Because I've got trouble imagining anyone living in Canada would actually want to immigrate here legally or no.


You'd be surprised. They made a big illegal migrant bust in Flint a few weeks ago. Illegal migrants are far from confined to the border states.

Seriously though, the only way you're going to truly stop illegal immigration from Mexico is to get the corrupt government fixed and improve its economy to where the Mexicans don't feel they need to come over here to make more money and improve their families' lives.

Crack down on the employers and the job market dries up. No jobs, fewer illegals coming in. That's what the Oklahoma law has done. Hell, they didn't even have to start enforcing it before the illegals started leaving. Also, the wages for those working in the hotel industry have gone up about $1 per hour. Oh, and unemployment has gone down.

Illegal Immigrants, Partly Blamed for State Budget Crisis, Face Crackdown in Rhode Island
This strikes me as scapegoating.

Last year Oklahoma passed a stiff anti-illegal immigrant law and the result has been a decline in the number of illegals in the state and an increase (yes I said increase) in employment. The state legislature is considering a bill this year to make English the official language in the state.
Well sure, if people don't say they are employing illegal aliens and arn't reported them employed, when they stop employing them and employ legal immigrants/citizens, employment will go up. Except the fact remains that the actual level of employment hasn't changed.

Anyways, if you go through the proper channels and options in becoming a US citizen (granted, I'm not familiar with them), then do so. If you plan on coming here, don't hide from the government...


Yeah, it's really that easy.

Crack down on the employers and the job market dries up. No jobs, fewer illegals coming in. That's what the Oklahoma law has done. Hell, they didn't even have to start enforcing it before the illegals started leaving. Also, the wages for those working in the hotel industry have gone up about $1 per hour. Oh, and unemployment has gone down.

But, but, but uhhhh.................


But you are right. This is what should be repeated around the US. No more bleeding hearts. Take care of our crap and let them take care of theirs.

Yeah, it's really that easy.

It's not supposed to be easy. That's the point.

Well sure, if people don't say they are employing illegal aliens and arn't reported them employed, when they stop employing them and employ legal immigrants/citizens, employment will go up. Except the fact remains that the actual level of employment hasn't changed.


Actually, it makes the chose between living there unemployed, or leaving/ getting deported. So it does go down.

Actually, it makes the chose between living there unemployed, or leaving/ getting deported. So it does go down.
No, it doesn't. It's a god damned illusion. The amount of employment is exactly the same.

It's not supposed to be easy. That's the point.

Then why should they go through a channel that has a 99.9% failure rate?

Then why should they go through a channel that has a 99.9% failure rate?

I'd love to see some statistics backing that up; otherwise, it's just an opinion.

Then why should they go through a channel that has a 99.9% failure rate?

Are you speaking of the turn down rate for Mexican and Latin American applicants for residency?

I'd love to see some statistics backing that up; otherwise, it's just an opinion.

How many opportunities do you think there are for unskilled foreign language workers to enter the United States legally and obtain citizenship?

How many opportunities do you think there are for unskilled foreign language workers to enter the United States legally and obtain citizenship?

You do understand that there is a lottery system set up for many nations around the world for their citizens to get US residency. As long as the applicants are not criminals in their home countries there is nothing baring them from applying.

http://www.usagreencardlottery.org/diversityvisalottery_2009/

You do understand that there is a lottery system set up for many nations around the world for their citizens to get US residency. As long as the applicants are not criminals in their home countries there is nothing baring them from applying.

http://www.usagreencardlottery.org/diversityvisalottery_2009/

Yeah, that was the 0.1%

How many opportunities do you think there are for unskilled foreign language workers to enter the United States legally and obtain citizenship?

Like I said, show me some proof or statistics, and I'll consider changing my opinion. You continue to ask questions that not only I can't answer, but you can't even answer properly yourself.

With that said, I do know that all you need is to apply for any job, and ask that employer to sponsor you for a green card, through your employment. (Granted right now, the economy is in a recession, and getting a job is a lot harder, at least where I live, than it used to be. Michigan's unemployment rate is among the highest in the USA).

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=84096138f898d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD&vgnextchannel=4f719c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD

Crack down on the employers and the job market dries up. No jobs, fewer illegals coming in. That's what the Oklahoma law has done. Hell, they didn't even have to start enforcing it before the illegals started leaving. Also, the wages for those working in the hotel industry have gone up about $1 per hour. Oh, and unemployment has gone down. could you provide something to back this up? I really want to see the results.

Then why should they go through a channel that has a 99.9% failure rate? can you provide the source for this please?

How many opportunities do you think there are for unskilled foreign language workers to enter the United States legally and obtain citizenship? good question, can you site a source that answers this?

Yeah, that was the 0.1%

I'd be willing to bet that your percentage is quite far from the truth. ;)

I'd be willing to bet that your percentage is quite far from the truth. ;)

Yeah, it's hyperbole. The point is the same.

Yeah, it's hyperbole. The point is the same.
Still waiting for said proof.

Yeah, that was the 0.1%

They allow 50,000 a year but you have to remember that number could be up to 5 times higher with family members coming in after the original applicant. So I think the US is very generous in the lottery system. How many other nations allow up to 250,000 people to migrate to thier country every year just on a lottery system.

Will also add that between July 1, 2000 and July 1, 2007 a net total of 7,984,271 immigrants came to the US. That is well over a million a year. So is it really .01%?

Like I said, show me some proof or statistics, and I'll consider changing my opinion. You continue to ask questions that not only I can't answer, but you can't even answer properly yourself.

With that said, I do know that all you need is to apply for any job, and ask that employer to sponsor you for a green card, through your employment. (Granted right now, the economy is in a recession, and getting a job is a lot harder, at least where I live, than it used to be. Michigan's unemployment rate is among the highest in the USA).

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=84096138f898d010VgnVCM10000048f3d6a1RCRD&vgnextchannel=4f719c7755cb9010VgnVCM10000045f3d6a1RCRD
Wait wait, let me get this straight, so to get a small chance of becoming a legal citizin from the US, you first have to get a job in the US wich would require you to stay in the US illegally for a whole. Huh? Please tell me I'm wrong, because that sounds incredibly fucked up.
They allow 50,000 a year but you have to remember that number could be up to 5 times higher with family members coming in after the original applicant. So I think the US is very generous in the lottery system. How many other nations allow up to 250,000 people to migrate to thier country every year just on a lottery system.
It's a lottery system, it's random! That just...can't be good, I hope they got exceptions.

They allow 50,000 a year but you have to remember that number could be up to 5 times higher with family members coming in after the original applicant. So I think the US is very generous in the lottery system. How many other nations allow up to 250,000 people to migrate to thier country every year just on a lottery system.

Will also add that between July 1, 2000 and July 1, 2007 a net total of 7,984,271 immigrants came to the US. That is well over a million a year. So is it really .01%?

if it is... something's seriously wrong with those other countries since these people are practically fleeing them from in droves.

Wait wait, let me get this straight, so to get a small chance of becoming a legal citizin from the US, you first have to get a job in the US wich would require you to stay in the US illegally for a whole. Huh? Please tell me I'm wrong, because that sounds incredibly fucked up.

You never applied for a job via the mail? E-mail? Internet?

American Newspapers (including classified ads) are distributed world-wide.

and before you respond "but they need to know english", alot of companies hold multi-linquistic skills as a boon.

if it is... something's seriously wrong with those other countries since these people are practically fleeing them from in droves.

It is and those numbers were taken directly from the US immigration site. Just turn on the news any day and you can see why people want to leave. I will use my favorite African country of Morocco. It is a nice place and a stable government but there is simply no jobs. That is why there are tons of Moroccans leaving for Europe and the US. Simply to make money. Much the same reason that Mexicans come to the US. I can't blame them but the US can't take all the jobless of the world.

Good. If only the British government had the balls to admit we actually had a problem, we might be able to follow suit.

Wait wait, let me get this straight, so to get a small chance of becoming a legal citizin from the US, you first have to get a job in the US wich would require you to stay in the US illegally for a whole. Huh? Please tell me I'm wrong, because that sounds incredibly fucked up.

There are these things called 'work visas' or 'Green Cards'.
They allow you to come to the US to work quite legally for a set amount of time. During that time, guess what, you can apply for citizenship!
Shock!

You never applied for a job via the mail? E-mail? Internet?

American Newspapers (including classified ads) are distributed world-wide.

and before you respond "but they need to know english", alot of companies hold multi-linquistic skills as a boon.

The other way is to work for a US company in their home nation. Then apply for a transfer to the US. I know a small group of people that did that with Microsoft.

There are these things called 'work visas' or 'Green Cards'.
They allow you to come to the US to work quite legally for a set amount of time. During that time, guess what, you can apply for citizenship!
Shock!
Aa, I thought the green card was for citizinship. But even that sounds wierd to me. So the green card makes sure you can work legally in the US, but an employer can sponsor your green card application, wich means that you would work illegally for your employer. Afterall, you don't have your green card yet. Or am I still don't getting it :P (I'm tired from work, sooorryyy :D)

It is and those numbers were taken directly from the US immigration site. Just turn on the news any day and you can see why people want to leave. I will use my favorite African country of Morocco. It is a nice place and a stable government but there is simply no jobs. That is why there are tons of Moroccans leaving for Europe and the US. Simply to make money. Much the same reason that Mexicans come to the US. I can't blame them but the US can't take all the jobless of the world.

I meant that number being .1% of totall applicants submitted. :p

Aa, I thought the green card was for citizinship. But even that sounds wierd to me. So the green card makes sure you can work legally in the US, but an employer can sponsor your green card application, wich means that you would work illegally for your employer. Afterall, you don't have your green card yet. Or am I still don't getting it :P (I'm tired from work, sooorryyy :D)

Yes an employer can sponsor you but that doesn't always mean that they will give the applicant a visa. You as an employer need to show that the applicant is needed for the particular job. You also need to reasonably show that you can't find a person in your area to fill that job thus needing a foreign worker.

Still waiting for said proof.

This site's obsession with "sources" is strange.

There are a lack of real options for people who do not speak English and are unskilled because of the way the system is set up. Why any would do some kind of study into this I don't know.

I had to deal with U.S immigration and I know the different ways of getting into the country. It's hard to prove a negative (I guess I could link you to all the kinds of visas) but I'm sure that no one could produce a practical way for said people to legally work in the U.S and gain citizenship.

There's more to it than just that. I'm all for someone leaving a country where they have no hope, and coming here. But like I said, I may be slightly bias, because the one illegal immigrant that I've dealt with used a bunch of fake names, stole his brother's license and used that name as well, then got drunk and decided to run his car over my bf's brother a few times, knowing that he had hit him. (If you would like an example of why I think the way I do)

Anyways, if you go through the proper channels and options in becoming a US citizen (granted, I'm not familiar with them), then do so. If you plan on coming here, don't hide from the government...

Just a side note that I don't claim to be a right-winger (to which you responded to specifically). I just happened to have a right-wing stance on this issue.

Unfortunately for a mexican, or any latino immigrating to the US is pretty well impossible. Some folks high up decided years ago they didn't want too many dirty brown people moving in and set very low numbers for acceptance.

There are these things called 'work visas' or 'Green Cards'.
They allow you to come to the US to work quite legally for a set amount of time. During that time, guess what, you can apply for citizenship!
Shock!

Guess what? They'll expire before you become eligible!


and before you respond "but they need to know english", alot of companies hold multi-linquistic skills as a boon.

No one is suggesting that speaking Spanish is a problem :D rather it's the lack of English. If people are multi-lingual that's great, that's a skill. Speaking Spanish isn't going to open doors for you.

This site's obsession with "sources" is strange.

There are a lack of real options for people who do not speak English and are unskilled because of the way the system is set up. Why any would do some kind of study into this I don't know.

I had to deal with U.S immigration and I know the different ways of getting into the country. It's hard to prove a negative (I guess I could link you to all the kinds of visas) but I'm sure that no one could produce a practical way for said people to legally work in the U.S and gain citizenship.

1) this is a debate/discussion forum so yes, any claim of numbers/stats would require proof unless the poster says "In My Opinion".

2) I've seen people who CANNOT read english get their driver's licence. they have a translator sitting next to them reading the questions and answers to the applicant. so there are options for non-English speaking people.

3) Unskilled people have it hard, no matter where you're from.

4) My friends wife got her citizenship then they got married.
others have found legal work here and then got their citizenship.
it's possible. not easy, but possible.

Yes an employer can sponsor you but that doesn't always mean that they will give the applicant a visa. You as an employer need to show that the applicant is needed for the particular job. You also need to reasonably show that you can't find a person in your area to fill that job thus needing a foreign worker.
But how can your employer sponsor you for something to actually need to properly employ anyway?

2) I've seen people who CANNOT read english get their driver's licence. they have a translator sitting next to them reading the questions and answers to the applicant. so there are options for non-English speaking people.


That has nothing to do with the feasibility of legally entering the country when unskilled.


3) Unskilled people have it hard, no matter where you're from.


I agree


4) My friends wife got her citizenship then they got married.
others have found legal work here and then got their citizenship.
it's possible. not easy, but possible.

Was that a typo for "when"? Was that legal work unskilled on a visa?

No one is suggesting that speaking Spanish is a problem :D rather it's the lack of English. If people are multi-lingual that's great, that's a skill. Speaking Spanish isn't going to open doors for you.
Do you know how many people at where I work don't speak english or spanish? alot. I'm learning alot of Philipino here.

I know some resturants being run by people who speak very little, if any, english.

My friend grew up being the translator for her parents... even doing their business's books and taxes because her English is better than theirs and she was in elementary school (and I haven't heard them speak English yet.)

My friends wife was hired to deal solely with the Japanese and this was WHILE she was learning English.

I meant that number being .1% of totall applicants submitted. :p

This particular article for Mexico shows a 60+% approval rate.

http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/printDS/228686

That has nothing to do with the feasibility of legally entering the country when unskilled. but it does disprove your claim of entering a country without knowing English.

Was that a typo for "when"? Was that legal work unskilled on a visa?
she started working part time while going to college. so yes, unskilled AND on Visa.

and no. she wanted her citizenship before their marriage. He waited and helped her study.

but it does disprove your claim of entering a country without knowing English.

Of course it doesn't, the person could have entered with a skill or with family connections or could even have entered illegally.


she started working part time while going to college. so yes, unskilled AND on Visa.

Getting into college requires some kind of qualification or skill.

Aa, I thought the green card was for citizinship. But even that sounds wierd to me. So the green card makes sure you can work legally in the US, but an employer can sponsor your green card application, wich means that you would work illegally for your employer. Afterall, you don't have your green card yet. Or am I still don't getting it :P (I'm tired from work, sooorryyy :D)

A 'green card' is a permenant resident card. You get the right to work in the US and most of the rights of a US citizen (IE: You dont get to vote, or hold public office and suchlike).
In any case, you can ALSO have a temporary work visa (orange card, I think), which allows you to come to the US to LOOK for a job. I think. Its been a while since my last Government class.

Guess what? They'll expire before you become eligible!
(Whoops, missed this)
Greencards are PERMENANT resident cards. All you have to do is renew them after a certain period, which is a process consisting of going to your local immigration office and saying "I'd like to renew my permenant resident status, please", sort of like your drivers liscence.

This site's obsession with "sources" is strange.

There are a lack of real options for people who do not speak English and are unskilled because of the way the system is set up. Why any would do some kind of study into this I don't know.

I had to deal with U.S immigration and I know the different ways of getting into the country. It's hard to prove a negative (I guess I could link you to all the kinds of visas) but I'm sure that no one could produce a practical way for said people to legally work in the U.S and gain citizenship.

If they don't speak english and are unskilled why the hell would we want them coming here?

Seems like Rhode Island has become fed up with illegal immigration and is taking action the Federal Government refuses to take. In addition to telling the State Police to take action against illegal immigrants they state is considering other actions such as making it a felony to rent to illegal immigrants and make English the official state language.

Illegal Immigrants, Partly Blamed for State Budget Crisis, Face Crackdown in Rhode Island
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352706,00.html

Last year Oklahoma passed a stiff anti-illegal immigrant law and the result has been a decline in the number of illegals in the state and an increase (yes I said increase) in employment. The state legislature is considering a bill this year to make English the official language in the state.

Maybe, just maybe the Federal Government will wake up, start enforcing the immigration laws, and come up with some kind of a workable work permit program for foreign workers.

Awesome.

Now if the rest of the states would enact similar laws...

(Whoops, missed this)
Greencards are PERMENANT resident cards. All you have to do is renew them after a certain period, which is a process consisting of going to your local immigration office and saying "I'd like to renew my permenant resident status, please", sort of like your drivers liscence.

I was referring to work visas.

But how can your employer sponsor you for something to actually need to properly employ anyway?

The wife and I opened a Moroccan restaurant and were looking to bring a relative from Morocco to be a chef. Simple as that. Microsoft uses the excuse that they need specific techs for their overseas windows operating system. These are the H1B visa types.

As long as the law is on the books, you might as well enforce it. Disrespect for a single law creates disrespect for other laws.

I was referring to work visas.

Well, thats the point, isnt it? Thats why theyre called TEMPORARY work visas.

Of course it doesn't, the person could have entered with a skill or with family connections or could even have entered illegally. options... for someone you said had a lack of real options for.
There are a lack of real options for people who do not speak English and are unskilled because of the way the system is set up. Why any would do some kind of study into this I don't know.

I had to deal with U.S immigration and I know the different ways of getting into the country. It's hard to prove a negative (I guess I could link you to all the kinds of visas) but I'm sure that no one could produce a practical way for said people to legally work in the U.S and gain citizenship.

Getting into college requires some kind of qualification or skill. yet it's a practical way to legally work in the US while also working for US citizenship.

Well, thats the point, isnt it? Thats why theyre called TEMPORARY work visas.

Sure. I'm not the one saying people on those visas should apply for citizenship.

options... for someone you said had a lack of real options for.

Obviously options was meant as in "options for entering". That says nothing about the options for entering for unskilled foreign language speakers.

yet it's a practical way to legally work in the US while also working for US citizenship.

But nothing to do with the unskilled foreign language speakers this is all about.

Obviously options was meant as in "options for entering". That says nothing about the options for entering for unskilled foreign language speakers.

But nothing to do with the unskilled foreign language speakers this is all about.

I think you're mixing your points up.

People coming in on education visas can be less skilled than a farm worker.
People coming in with little to no Language skills does not make them unskilled.

I and many others have given examples of how unskilled 'foreign language speakers' (Note, not NON-English speakers) can get employement as well as entry into the USA and you seem to be trying to nitpick Unskiled and foreign language speakers to prove your point.

How many opportunities do you think there are for unskilled foreign language workers to enter the United States legally and obtain citizenship?

If you think the US is tough on legal immigration, just try Canada. I am an engineer with an advanced degree in education and can't qualify it immigrate to Canada. Why? Simple, to old, mono-lingual, my wife is not a college graduate, and is a stay at home mom. So, we don't get enough points to qualify for immigration. I think Canada has a good system though. They are looking for people who will contribute to the society, not old people who are about to retire and cost them money in medical and retirement benefits.

Sure. I'm not the one saying people on those visas should apply for citizenship.

If they want citizenship, they can apply for a permenant visa if thats what they need.

I think you're mixing your points up.

People coming in on education visas can be less skilled than a farm worker.
People coming in with little to no Language skills does not make them unskilled.

I and many others have given examples of how unskilled 'foreign language speakers' (Note, not NON-English speakers) can get employement as well as entry into the USA and you seem to be trying to nitpick Unskiled and foreign language speakers to prove your point.

I meant people who are both unskilled and unable to speak English.

Guess what? They'll expire before you become eligible!
It's called 'renewing' your green card, and setting the next expiration date further, so that you can continue the citizenship process. One person isn't restricted to one green card, for one specific amount of time, and not allowed to have it extended.

If you think the US is tough on legal immigration, just try Canada. I am an engineer with an advanced degree in education and can't qualify it immigrate to Canada. Why? Simple, to old, mono-lingual, my wife is not a college graduate, and is a stay at home mom. So, we don't get enough points to qualify for immigration. I think Canada has a good system though. They are looking for people who will contribute to the society, not old people who are about to retire and cost them money in medical and retirement benefits.

Simply to old is the main reason. People want to harp on the US but majority of nations have tough immigration standards.

Hm. And there I was thinking that right wingers would generally support free movement of labour.

if they started liking freedom, they'd stop being right-wingers

Simply to old is the main reason. People want to harp on the US but majority of nations have tough immigration standards.

the fact that others are even worse doesn't mean that our system is in any way justifiable or right.

if they started liking freedom, they'd stop being right-wingers

As opposed to those freedom loving Left Wingers?

could you provide something to back this up? I really want to see the results.

It's been on the news here in Oklahoma. I'm sure if you are really interested you can research it. I don't have the information at my fingertips or I'd give it to you. Try one of the local radio stations that was talking about it last week, 1170 KFAQ. They might have something on their web site.

This site's obsession with "sources" is strange.

There are a lack of real options for people who do not speak English and are unskilled because of the way the system is set up. Why any would do some kind of study into this I don't know.



Sources are needed, because I could simply claim that 99% of all immigrants who apply for citizenship get it (just as you did with your claim), but obviously, it isn't right. We need proof of such random numbers, otherwise, it's false.

the fact that others are even worse doesn't mean that our system is in any way justifiable or right.

Our system is justifiable. We let in more immigrants than any nation on earth. I think the way it is setup is fine. If things need to be tweaked over the years then so be it. But the US system by no means is oppressive.

As opposed to those freedom loving Left Wingers?

yes. in so far as you can sum up the general tendency of left and right, it is the left that at least wants to head towards peace, freedom, equality, and the like, while the right wants hierarchy, obedience, restriction, and violence. this isn't to say that either side is pure or that their actions always match their desires, but these are the motivations and drives.

There are these things called 'work visas' or 'Green Cards'.
They allow you to come to the US to work quite legally for a set amount of time. During that time, guess what, you can apply for citizenship!
Shock!

There is a bit of a difference between a work visa and a green card. The work visa is only give to skilled professionals from abroad to fill positions that can't be filled by Americans, or foreign students graduating from American Colleges. The work visas are for a specific time. While working here on a work visa the individual can apply for a green card which gives him/her perminant residence status and they can stay here as long as they like.

There is a bit of a difference between a work visa and a green card. The work visa is only give to skilled professionals from abroad to fill positions that can't be filled by Americans, or foreign students graduating from American Colleges. The work visas are for a specific time. While working here on a work visa the individual can apply for a green card which gives him/her perminant residence status and they can stay here as long as they like.

This was noted. The 'or' is there for a reason :P

Our system is justifiable.

what argument is there for prohibiting the freedom of movement? doing so is inherently a claim of unjust birthright privilege.

Unfortunately for a mexican, or any latino immigrating to the US is pretty well impossible. Some folks high up decided years ago they didn't want too many dirty brown people moving in and set very low numbers for acceptance.

It is pretty well impossible for ANY non-high school graduate, with no skills, who do not speak English to get into the country no matter what the color of their skin or what country they live in. :rolleyes:

Our system is justifiable. We let in more immigrants than any nation on earth. I think the way it is setup is fine. If things need to be tweaked over the years then so be it. But the US system by no means is oppressive.

I agree with you. I'm sure it is not a perfect system, but I think the fact remains that restrictions must be placed on immigration. It may seem heartless, but if the borders were open, social welfare systems would most likely collapse. As much as I'd like to assure everyone a high standard of living, the fact remains that good welfare states depend on a wealthy, productive populace. It seems to be an interesting contradiction of supporters of both social welfare and open borders.

what argument is there for prohibiting the freedom of movement? doing so is inherently a claim of unjust birthright privilege.


As horrible as it sounds, for me it really is an unjust birthright privilege. As previously stated, if the world in its current situation had open borders, every welfare state on earth would collapse. It's horrible but true.

Guess what? They'll expire before you become eligible!

We have several working for the company I work for and none of the work visas have expired before the individuals get their green card. The company helps them renew their work visas until they get the green card, so what your saying is not true. Sam graduated from a school in Florida with an engineering degree and has been with us for over eight years. My boss, who is from Canada, has been on a work visa for about the same amount of time. The company is currently doing what they can to help them get their green card. They have done so for many other employees.

It is pretty well impossible for ANY non-high school graduate, with no skills, who do not speak English to get into the country no matter what the color of their skin or what country they live in. :rolleyes:

And given how their home country is likely a corrupt cesspool where only the elites get the proper education and technical skills it's still their damn fault anyways huh?

Gotta love the US and its Objectivist immigration policy.

We have several working for the company I work for and none of the work visas have expired before the individuals get their green card. The company helps them renew their work visas until they get the green card, so what your saying is not true. Sam graduated from a school in Florida with an engineering degree and has been with us for over eight years. My boss, who is from Canada, has been on a work visa for about the same amount of time. The company is currently doing what they can to help them get their green card. They have done so for many other employees.

Eligible for citizenship. Whilst some people can go visa ---> green card ---> citizenship, the line ends earlier for most people.

yes. in so far as you can sum up the general tendency of left and right, it is the left that at least wants to head towards peace, freedom, equality, and the like, while the right wants hierarchy, obedience, restriction, and violence. this isn't to say that either side is pure or that their actions always match their desires, but these are the motivations and drives.

Funny how the actions of the left do not show they are for freedom and equality. If anything it is left leaners that enact the most laws restricting rights of individuals. At least this is my experience in the state of Washington where left wingers have taken over.

what argument is there for prohibiting the freedom of movement? doing so is inherently a claim of unjust birthright privilege.

Since when does a Mexican, Canadian, Moroccan, Indonesian, European or whatever nationality have a birthright to freely move to the US?

This particular article for Mexico shows a 60+% approval rate.

http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/printDS/228686

YOUR BAD. That article was about VISITORS VISAS not work visas or green cards. Someone here on a visitors visa can not legally work in this country. :rolleyes:

I meant people who are both unskilled and unable to speak English... with no contacts whatsoever in the USA, with no friends or family to help out... the pool of people you're referring to is getting smaller. ;)

.. with no contacts whatsoever in the USA, with no friends or family to help out... the pool of people you're referring to is getting smaller. ;)

You can have contacts.. as long as they not so close as to allow you entry to the US. The thing is, the people you're talking about who can enter and stay legally do so. The poster who started this all off was referring to illegal immigrants and saying they should apply to enter legally.

And given how their home country is likely a corrupt cesspool where only the elites get the proper education and technical skills it's still their damn fault anyways huh?

Gotta love the US and its Objectivist immigration policy.

It is not the fault of the US. We can not support every un-educated, non-English speaking, unskilled person in the world. Like Canada, we do not want immigrants that we may have to support but we welcome legal immigrants who can contribute to our society. I don't think that's asking to much.

Since when does Rhode Island have to worry about illegal immigrants? What, are they sneaking in from the Canadian border? Because I've got trouble imagining anyone living in Canada would actually want to immigrate here legally or no.

Seriously though, the only way you're going to truly stop illegal immigration from Mexico is to get the corrupt government fixed and improve its economy to where the Mexicans don't feel they need to come over here to make more money and improve their families' lives.

That or somehow divert the money from the Iraq quagmire into border patrol and enforcement and repeal the law allowing for natural born citizenry. Prohibition is just one historical example of how cracking down on something simply drives it further underground and some Mexicans don't care if they get caught and deported as long their children are born on US soil, and the crackdown is simply going to make it more profitable for smugglers. You're also going to have to apply severe penalties to companies and/or people caught using illegal labor since most of the time they only get a slap on the wrist and even willingly exploit the labor knowing this.

Illegal immigrants are not solely from Mexico (or South American countries), nor do they only live in the southwest. I live in CT (Rhode Island's neighboring state), and I can tell you that here, there are illegal immigrants (some Asian, some Latino, some European, etc). Also, in New Haven, they're offering identification cards to everyone, regardless of their citizenship status.

You can have contacts.. as long as they not so close as to allow you entry to the US.
LOL...
sorry, but now you're making it sound like a game.

WELCOME TO US CITIZENSHIP.

each contestant has 5 years to become a Legal US Citizen. the rules, of course, allows the contestant to work on their own, no help from any citizen of the US, tho help from non-citizens would be ok. remember, if you're caught by INS, then you will be disqualified. runner ups will recive the X-Station WII version of the game... :D

The thing is, the people you're talking about who can enter and stay legally do so.and so far, people have shown that it's possible to become a legal citizen, with or without help. yes, no one claimed it would be easy and no one claimed it was a guarentee.

The poster who started this all off was referring to illegal immigrants and saying they should apply to enter legally. yes, all Immigrants need to enter the country Legally. what's wrong with that? If you want to help those you feel cannot enter without help, feel free to create an organization that will help those people to enter legally.

Those that can and do enter legally do deserve every chance they can get. those that sneak in illegally...

YOUR BAD. That article was about VISITORS VISAS not work visas or green cards. Someone here on a visitors visa can not legally work in this country. :rolleyes:

Well no shit..... :D

Well I can't get back into the site without registering. So I may just post another one here. Anyways I didn't think your eye site was good enough to read small print old man. ;)

Anyway it is difficult to find overall information on denial rates. Considering we issue over 1 million permanent resident cards a year I would say that 1% approval rating would mean that 100 million apply per year. Which is absurd. So the rate I would imagine is well over 50%.

LOL...
sorry, but now you're making it sound like a game.

WELCOME TO US CITIZENSHIP.

each contestant has 5 years to become a Legal US Citizen. the rules, of course, allows the contestant to work on their own, no help from any citizen of the US, tho help from non-citizens would be ok. remember, if you're caught by INS, then you will be disqualified. runner ups will recive the X-Station WII version of the game... :D


Except, as I said, the poster was talking about a specific type of person. So disregarding the categories that make that type of person that, um, type of person seems to be silly.


and so far, people have shown that it's possible to become a legal citizen, with or without help. yes, no one claimed it would be easy and no one claimed it was a guarentee.


I plan on becoming a legal citizen. I'm perfectly aware it's possible. I was talking about a set of circumstances you seem incapable of understanding.


yes, all Immigrants need to enter the country Legally. what's wrong with that?

Nothing. But it isn't a viable option for the kind of people we were talking about so offering it as an option, as the origal comment did, is disingenuous.


If you want to help those you feel cannot enter without help, feel free to create an organization that will help those people to enter legally.

Thanks for the permission.

Our system is justifiable. We let in more immigrants than any nation on earth. I think the way it is setup is fine. If things need to be tweaked over the years then so be it. But the US system by no means is oppressive.

"More immigrants" isn't the best way to compare countries. The figure should be taken relative to population. That brings the US back to the pack.

I'm not really looking for a piece of this argument, I'm just saying that gross numbers don't say anything about how fair the policies are.

:rolleyes:

*yawn*

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=HKd6kSDcaYQ



Thats all this debate ever boils down to.

I plan on becoming a legal citizen. I'm perfectly aware it's possible. I was talking about a set of circumstances you seem incapable of understanding.Good Luck with that. :)

However, the circumstances you seem to try to focus on is one tailored ONLY for illegal immigrants. Poor (yet they can afford to have others sneak them across), Illiterate in both written and speaking, Uneducated, unable to do anything, even use a shovel or pick things up...

Nothing. But it isn't a viable option for the kind of people we were talking about so offering it as an option, as the origal comment did, is disingenuous. so you're focusing on a NARROW band of people, totally ignoring all others trying to get in legally while saying 'those that have no other way should be allowed in'.

Thanks for the permission. You're welcome. :p

If only the govermenyt here in england would do the same but there shit scared of "Human rights protesters", or rather "idiots who need to leanr there actually DESTROYING the rights of others!"

Immigrants = :mp5:
Our goverment see'sit like this - :)
The English people see it like this - :headbang::upyours:
And all us Enlgishman should do this to the immigrants - :sniper:

This site's obsession with "sources" is strange.

:eek: Oh noes, we want to see if there's anything to your claims! What a ridiculous idea. :rolleyes:

If only the govermenyt here in england would do the same but there shit scared of "Human rights protesters", or rather "idiots who need to leanr there actually DESTROYING the rights of others!"

m i r n s = :mp5:
Our goverment see'sit like this - :)
The English people see it like this - :headbang::upyours:
And all us Enlgishman should do this to the i m g a t s - :sniper:

Wow, that's noob. You actually shot words with the gun smilies. Congratulations!

"More immigrants" isn't the best way to compare countries. The figure should be taken relative to population. That brings the US back to the pack.

I'm not really looking for a piece of this argument, I'm just saying that gross numbers don't say anything about how fair the policies are.

Yeah I have heard this argument before however it doesn't really hold water with me. People tend to use percentages to skew results. Fact is that total number of immigrants allowed is the US on a year to year basis. I draw the comparison to money. Is it better to make 5% off of 30 million or 3% off 300 million? Who made the most money here?

Wow, that's noob. You actually shot words with the gun smilies. Congratulations!

It actually portrays his feelings and mentality fairly well.

Well, thats the point, isnt it? Thats why theyre called TEMPORARY work visas.

And you can get them renewed as well.

Since when does a Mexican, Canadian, Moroccan, Indonesian, European or whatever nationality have a birthright to freely move to the US?

everyone everywhere has the right to freely move around and live anywhere they want. the same thing that made the stalinist system of internal passports a grossly unjust system also means that any system that restricts freedom of movement beyond what is actually necessary is also grossly unjust.

If only the govermenyt here in england would do the same but there shit scared of "Human rights protesters", or rather "idiots who need to leanr there actually DESTROYING the rights of others!"
If I had a penny for every idiot with this line...

What rights are these immigrants removing from you, play tell? The Human Rights Act, the European Convention on Human Rights and the various pieces of constitutional law that give you your rights still apply, no matter who is or isn't in the country.

Immigrants = :mp5:
Our goverment see'sit like this - :)
The English people see it like this - :headbang::upyours:
And all us Enlgishman should do this to the immigrants - :sniper:
Please. Most Englishmen are reasonable people, thank you very much.

However, the circumstances you seem to try to focus on is one tailored ONLY for illegal immigrants. Poor (yet they can afford to have others sneak them across), Illiterate in both written and speaking, Uneducated, unable to do anything, even use a shovel or pick things up...


Again, it's not something I've decided to focus on it is the very basis of this conversation. The original comment was about illegal immigrants so it goes without saying the circumstances I'm focusing on are tailored toward illegal immigrants.


so you're focusing on a NARROW band of people


because that is what this is about


totally ignoring all others

because they're not what this is about


while saying 'those that have no other way should be allowed in'.


When did I say anything of the sort?

Yeah I have heard this argument before however it doesn't really hold water with me. People tend to use percentages to skew results. Fact is that total number of immigrants allowed is the US on a year to year basis. I draw the comparison to money. Is it better to make 5% off of 30 million or 3% off 300 million? Who made the most money here?

That's not the same question. Maybe it'd be more comparable if it were "who used their money most effectively?" and the answer would be the guy who only earnt 1.5 million from 30 million.

:eek: Oh noes, we want to see if there's anything to your claims! What a ridiculous idea. :rolleyes:

Yeah but that's pretty much the reaction of any forum when anyone challenges their culture. Clearly the 99.9% figure was not meant to be taken literally.

everyone everywhere has the right to freely move around and live anywhere they want. the same thing that made the stalinist system of internal passports a grossly unjust system also means that any system that restricts freedom of movement beyond what is actually necessary is also grossly unjust.

I like the idealism that you are speaking of but I also live in the real world. In the real world it simply isn't true and I doubt it will ever be so. At least not in the foreseeable future.

Yeah I have heard this argument before however it doesn't really hold water with me. People tend to use percentages to skew results.

If I wanted this argument, I'd ask "which people?"

Fact is that total number of immigrants allowed is the US on a year to year basis. I draw the comparison to money. Is it better to make 5% off of 30 million or 3% off 300 million? Who made the most money here?

Comparing people to money is going to "skew" things just a bit, don't you think?

I don't know much about immigration policy in the States, and have read the thread with some interest, including your posts. Using the gross number says nothing about the fairness of the policies, nor serves to compare the US to any other country for "generosity."

I'm done.

EDIT: When I say "I'm done" I mean I'm not saying anything more on that subject. Anyone who wants it can have it.

Again, it's not something I've decided to focus on it is the very basis of this conversation. The original comment was about illegal immigrants so it goes without saying the circumstances I'm focusing on are tailored toward illegal immigrants. yet not all Illegals fall into the catagories you're talking about. Alot of Illegals have contacts in the US. Alot of Illegals are not Unskilled nor are they Non-English speaking.

because that is what this is about wrong, it's about Illegal immigration, not unskilled, Non-English speaking people.


because they're not what this is about yep, screw the others, only focus on one group of people.

When did I say anything of the sort? when you focused only on UNSKILLED and NON-ENGLISH speaking people with no contacts, and no job prospects.

Yeah but that's pretty much the reaction of any forum when anyone challenges their culture. Clearly the 99.9% figure was not meant to be taken literally.

Yeah, because immigration is a subject where a bit of hyperbole couldn't possibly hurt. :p

Slap the mat bro. You lost that point by using a "figure" when you meant "heaps of" or perhaps "most."

That's not the same question. Maybe it'd be more comparable if it were "who used their money most effectively?" and the answer would be the guy who only earnt 1.5 million from 30 million.

So the US should take in 5% or 1.5 million immigrants rather than the 1+ million because other nations can't use an economy of scale? Seems foolish to me.

when you focused only on UNSKILLED and NON-ENGLISH speaking people with no contacts, and no job prospects.

I'm going to ignore the rest for a second because I believe this is indicative of the presumption that has been found throughout our dialogue. What has that got to do with anything? At no point have I made the case that any person in any situation should be "allowed in" and I have no idea where you got that idea from.

So the US should take in 5% or 1.5 million immigrants rather than the 1+ million because other nations can't use an economy of scale? Seems foolish to me.

What? If you think that the higher the number of immigrants the fairer the system then a gigantic country in which immigrants were basically unheard of could be the fairest country in the world. Fair is about scale.

If I wanted this argument, I'd ask "which people?"
People that choose to not use raw numbers because it would not support their position.




Comparing people to money is going to "skew" things just a bit, don't you think?

I don't know much about immigration policy in the States, and have read the thread with some interest, including your posts. Using the gross number says nothing about the fairness of the policies, nor serves to compare the US to any other country for "generosity."

I'm done.

Using gross numbers and the points of how the US allows people in does indicate policy without actually reading it verbatim. Without even looking at a nations policies a lot can be determined by looking at how many and who is being let in through immigration.

As far as fairness goes that can vary from whom you talk to. Fairness is difficult to measure.

What? If you think that the higher the number of immigrants the fairer the system then a gigantic country in which immigrants were basically unheard of could be the fairest country in the world. Fair is about scale.

You think immigrants are unheard of in the US?

You must be talking about China, India or Russia for that matter.

It is not the fault of the US. We can not support every un-educated, non-English speaking, unskilled person in the world. Like Canada, we do not want immigrants that we may have to support but we welcome legal immigrants who can contribute to our society. I don't think that's asking to much.

In other words, the Land of the Free is now the Land of the Objectivist Brain Drain. And since you'll argue that it's the person's choice to immigrate or not, keep in mind if things were well off back in their native land, they wouldn't likely have a need to immigrate in the first place. All the Objectivist Brain Drain does is suck away the skilled people a struggling nation could use and leave in its place a disaffected and unskilled mass who will likely lack for many basic human services and become the target rich demographics that religious extremists draw their base pool of support from.

So much for "Bring Us Your Tired, Your Poor and Those Yearning to be Free." Now it's "If you have useful skills, welcome to America. If not, go fuck yourself and crawl back into the shithole you came from."

I'm going to ignore the rest for a second because I believe this is indicative of the presumption that has been found throughout our dialogue. What has that got to do with anything? At no point have I made the case that any person in any situation should be "allowed in" and I have no idea where you got that idea from.
oh, so you are actually for rounding up illegals and deporting them.

It was hard to determine since your earlier posts... Then why should they go through a channel that has a 99.9% failure rate?

How many opportunities do you think there are for unskilled foreign language workers to enter the United States legally and obtain citizenship?

Sounded like you were for letting those who came in illegally to stay (amnesty) and giving them assistance.

Oh and for my "presumption" about your focus of Unskilled Non-English speaking people entering Illegally with no contacts here to help them...

You can have contacts.. as long as they not so close as to allow you entry to the US. The thing is, the people you're talking about who can enter and stay legally do so. The poster who started this all off was referring to illegal immigrants and saying they should apply to enter legally.

I meant people who are both unskilled and unable to speak English.

Of course it doesn't, the person could have entered with a skill or with family connections or could even have entered illegally.

Getting into college requires some kind of qualification or skill.

Sure. I'm not the one saying people on those visas should apply for citizenship.

Obviously options was meant as in "options for entering". That says nothing about the options for entering for unskilled foreign language speakers.

But nothing to do with the unskilled foreign language speakers this is all about.

I like the idealism that you are speaking of

oh?
But you are right. This is what should be repeated around the US. No more bleeding hearts. Take care of our crap and let them take care of theirs.

but I also live in the real world. In the real world it simply isn't true and I doubt it will ever be so. At least not in the foreseeable future.

it is true that restrictions on freedom of movement are unjust and oppressive. and in the real world, the proper response to unjust and oppressive things is to oppose them, loudly and publicly. not to praise them and demand more.

There's more to it than just that. I'm all for someone leaving a country where they have no hope, and coming here. But like I said, I may be slightly bias, because the one illegal immigrant that I've dealt with used a bunch of fake names, stole his brother's license and used that name as well, then got drunk and decided to run his car over my bf's brother a few times, knowing that he had hit him. (If you would like an example of why I think the way I do)

Anyways, if you go through the proper channels and options in becoming a US citizen (granted, I'm not familiar with them), then do so. If you plan on coming here, don't hide from the government...

Just a side note that I don't claim to be a right-winger (to which you responded to specifically). I just happened to have a right-wing stance on this issue.

First, I'd like to say that I [sympathize with/pity you for] (I need lojban here) for the loss. I hope that I never have to experience anything like that. However, I also hope that if I do, I can keep my heart reaction different from my head reaction. My heart reaction to that would, I think, be "kill the illegals". I hope, however, that I manage to keep my head opinion, which is at the moment "This is tragic, but we mustn't let one case tarnish a whole demographic". You grok? (this may come off as preachy, my apologies if it does. I hope you get what I'm trying to say though)

Now, having said that, I generally favour the free movement of people. I know we get the occasional tragedy, but I think that the advantages generally outweigh this. Above all, I'm very opposed to draconian tests and immigration regulation. Given the lovely inscription on the base of the Statue of Liberty, I also see it as a little hypocritical when coming from the US, although it does have historical precedent there (unfortunately).

I suppose what I'm most opposed to is the xenophobia that is generally the root of most people's anti-illegal immigration stance. The sort of "OMG brown people" thing. I reckon that this is often the root of quite a lot of problems with things. So I'm very opposed to the Rhode Island legislation and the like. I don't think that illegal immigration generally harms people, and I do think that it's beneficial to society as a whole to be more mixed up, more diverse.

Just a note on the right winger thing. The main thrust of that comment was at the sort of "OMG Free market yes yes yes!" people who are also "OMG Illegal Immigrants shoot them all!", and that it struck me as a somewhat contradictory position.

As long as the law is on the books, you might as well enforce it. Disrespect for a single law creates disrespect for other laws.

Why is the law inherently worthy of respect?

There's more to it than just that. I'm all for someone leaving a country where they have no hope, and coming here.

...

Anyways, if you go through the proper channels and options in becoming a US citizen (granted, I'm not familiar with them), then do so.

Proper channels are time-consuming and expensive. Illegal channels are expensive too but can get you in before your family starves.

The solution is to make "proper channels" neither expensive nor time-consuming. Free the flow of labor, free the flow of people who need to.. uh, flow.

But I think it's more than you who's biased on this issue... for some reason neither the 'left' nor the 'right' is really claiming any sort of moral high ground (IMO) with regards to illegal immigrants. Even just entering the US can be problematic nowadays. I think it's xenophobia, and a translation of hatred against Middle Easterners (who we've killed enough of that guilt interferes with enjoyment of that hatred) to against Illegal Immigrants from Mexico (who we've killed hardly any of, and who, we are told, are Stealing Our Jobs and Turning The USA Into The Third World).

Maybe, just maybe the Federal Government will wake up, start enforcing the immigration laws, and come up with some kind of a workable work permit program for foreign workers.

Don't hold your breath.

Why is the law inherently worthy of respect?
Because I'm no fan of total anarchy and rampant crime.

Proper channels are time-consuming and expensive. Illegal channels are expensive too but can get you in before your family starves.

The solution is to make "proper channels" neither expensive nor time-consuming. Free the flow of labor, free the flow of people who need to.. uh, flow.

Unfortunately, that won't do. Legal easy to obtain work means having to pay workers a living wage, having to insure them, offer benefits and maintain occupational safety standards. By keeping immigration illegal, difficult but not impossible and socially stigmatic, employers can maintain an adequate supply of cheap desperate labor that won't complain or attract attention themselves by searching for better wages or complaining about safety guidelines. *nod*

If the Government actually cared about illegal immigration, they would levy extremely heavy fines on those companies that hire illegals. California passed a proposition denying education to illegal immigrants, and the US Supeme Court declared that Unconstitutional. The problem with illegal immigration is that most illegals think that they are wanted here, until they come and are disillusioned with the living conditions. If most illegals realized that they were NOT wanted here, they wouldn't come. Also, as long as they can find jobs, they will come. They're only human.

Also video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ

Watch it, then comment on my post.


Edit: this was found on a Liberal Website. And McCain's policies won't do a thing to illegal immigration, Republicans love the Mexican Votes, see Rove's Texas Strategy if you don't believe me.

The bourgeois have used illegal immigration as a scapegoat in America for decades ever since the emergence of organized labor and the intensity of class warfare. The bourgeois will try to take the economic ills of capitalism caused by the inherent anarchy in capitalist production - and they will blame it on immigrants and play the workers to crude jingoistic stereotypes - usually racial. They create illusions of damage and try to pass off the blame to the immigrants, who themselves are being exploited by capitalism even worse than the citizen workers.

Just like welfare capitalism, using immigrant labor is a way for the bourgeois to shift blame for economic ills to either 'welfare bludgers' or 'immigrants stealing our jobs', usually accompanying them is racial stereotypes usually exploited by the occaisonal bigot in a suit calling himself a politician. It's simply a way of creating a reserve of unemployed or undocumented labor and to exert pressure and create illusions of damage on the 'domestic' 'citizen' workforce who already has labor protections left and make them hate those more exploited than they are.

It's class warfare 101, and your average America falls for it every time.

The bourgeois have used illegal immigration as a scapegoat in America for decades ever since the emergence of organized labor and the intensity of class warfare. The bourgeois will try to take the economic ills of capitalism caused by the inherent anarchy in capitalist production - and they will blame it on immigrants and play the workers to crude jingoistic stereotypes - usually racial. They create illusions of damage and try to pass off the blame to the immigrants, who themselves are being exploited by capitalism even worse than the citizen workers.

Just like welfare capitalism, using immigrant labor is a way for the bourgeois to shift blame for economic ills to either 'welfare bludgers' or 'immigrants stealing our jobs', usually accompanying them is racial stereotypes usually exploited by the occaisonal bigot in a suit calling himself a politician. It's simply a way of creating a reserve of unemployed or undocumented labor and to exert pressure and create illusions of damage on the 'domestic' 'citizen' workforce who already has labor protections left and make them hate those more exploited than they are.

It's class warfare 101, and your average America falls for it every time.


I hope that most Americans by now realize that government won't do anything about illegal immigration, but they'll "act Patriotic". Although I'm still voting Democrat against McCain, I don't want 8 more years of Bush, I am going to vote for a non-Democrat nor Republican for Congress. Enough is enough. And like I said, fine the companies that hire illegals with $1,000,000 fines, and you'll see less illegals instantly.

Seems like Rhode Island has become fed up with illegal immigration and is taking action the Federal Government refuses to take. In addition to telling the State Police to take action against illegal immigrants they state is considering other actions such as making it a felony to rent to illegal immigrants and make English the official state language.

Illegal Immigrants, Partly Blamed for State Budget Crisis, Face Crackdown in Rhode Island
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352706,00.html

Last year Oklahoma passed a stiff anti-illegal immigrant law and the result has been a decline in the number of illegals in the state and an increase (yes I said increase) in employment. The state legislature is considering a bill this year to make English the official language in the state.

Maybe, just maybe the Federal Government will wake up, start enforcing the immigration laws, and come up with some kind of a workable work permit program for foreign workers.

are people really THAT gullable? there's nothing natural about any imigration being unlawful. its only states making laws against it that MAKES imigration, ANY imigration, unlawful in the first place. if anyone needs to wake up, its these idiots who imagine a nation can be free with closed borders.

if population is a problem, and it is, everywhere, not one coming from other places to other places, closing borders isn't going to help that either. the only thing that will is to lower human firtility. ALL human firtility.

this nonsense of closing borders accomplishes nothing but to increase already gratuitous hardships.

hardships more often then not, created by the exploitive international policies of more fortunate nations. stop THOSE, and you will stop the overwhelming majority of people needing, or even wanting, to move from their current national and geographic locations.

don't stop them, and you may be able with walls and callus murder and mistreatment to slow the flood, but never to stop it entirely.

immigration is the symptom, international callusness of economic intrests is the real disease that is causing it. keep causing the disease, and anything done to and about the symtom, is an ineffective placibo, and its real harm, inexcusable.

=^^=
.../\...

FWIW, as a current legal immigrant to the US on a work visa,

The work visa situation is a mess. The govt issues only 65K H1 visas a year and when they start accepting applications on Apr 1, they get somewhere like >100K in the very first day and they go into lottery mode to pick the 65K out of the the first two day applicants.

The industry needs high-skilled workers to retain the edge that it has. It is fast eroding as it is. If it keeps skilled people out...these people will then work in their home countries and the edge of innovation will shift there.

Smaller companies actually hesitate to sponsor new H1s because of the risks of rejection, the wait period and the temporariness of the visa. You get 3 years and can extend it to another 3 years after which you have to stay a year out of the country unless you have your green card process started whereby you can file for extensions every year after the 6th year.

The work based green card situation is even more messier than the work visa. There is a huge backlog running into 6+ years. Many people I know simply gave up and moved back to their home countries....taking their experience and skill with them and their money. I myself have not applied since I am debating is it worth to go through the hassle or to move back.

The bourgeois have used illegal immigration as a scapegoat in America for decades ever since the emergence of organized labor and the intensity of class warfare. The bourgeois will try to take the economic ills of capitalism caused by the inherent anarchy in capitalist production - and they will blame it on immigrants and play the workers to crude jingoistic stereotypes - usually racial. They create illusions of damage and try to pass off the blame to the immigrants, who themselves are being exploited by capitalism even worse than the citizen workers.

Just like welfare capitalism, using immigrant labor is a way for the bourgeois to shift blame for economic ills to either 'welfare bludgers' or 'immigrants stealing our jobs', usually accompanying them is racial stereotypes usually exploited by the occaisonal bigot in a suit calling himself a politician. It's simply a way of creating a reserve of unemployed or undocumented labor and to exert pressure and create illusions of damage on the 'domestic' 'citizen' workforce who already has labor protections left and make them hate those more exploited than they are.

It's class warfare 101, and your average America falls for it every time.

You sound like propaganda incarnate. Chill out some if you want people to take you seriously

You sound like propaganda incarnate. Chill out some if you want people to take you seriously

AP is Stalinist propaganda incarnate.

oh, so you are actually for rounding up illegals and deporting them.

It was hard to determine since your earlier posts...

Sounded like you were for letting those who came in illegally to stay (amnesty) and giving them assistance.



Well, clearly it doesn't say that. So that's you presuming incorrectly. I was pointing out that a certain suggestion (here's the kicker - ONLY that suggestion, not any other suggestions you might want to pin on me to turn my argument into something that suits you) was disingenuous.

[QUOTE
Oh and for my "presumption" about your focus of Unskilled Non-English speaking people entering Illegally with no contacts here to help them...[/QUOTE]

Again, you seem to be incapable of keeping track of an argument. I said zilch about you "presuming" that I was "focusing" on those isssues.

AP is Stalinist propaganda incarnate.

Why do you call him AP?

Unfortunately, that won't do. Legal easy to obtain work means having to pay workers a living wage, having to insure them, offer benefits and maintain occupational safety standards. By keeping immigration illegal, difficult but not impossible and socially stigmatic, employers can maintain an adequate supply of cheap desperate labor that won't complain or attract attention themselves by searching for better wages or complaining about safety guidelines. *nod*

i am honestly mystified why more people seem unable to recognize this obvious fact, and the way their xenophobia plays right into it.

Please. Most Englishmen are reasonable people, thank you very much.

responsible, but fed up with us bending over and takin every immigrant this side of the pond who wants in on our ancient welfare state!

the UK has seen an INSANE population increase since Europe opened all their borders an gave em directions to our tiny little island...

skilled workers are welcome in sensible numbers, everyone else can clear off ad take the "benefits massiv" with them...

60 million+ is waaaay too much.

muchlove.

responsible, but fed up with us bending over and takin every immigrant this side of the pond who wants in on our ancient welfare state!

Does Britain take every immigrant?


the UK has seen an INSANE population increase since Europe opened all their borders an gave em directions to our tiny little island...

2006 numbers:
An estimated 400,000 people left the UK for a year or more
Some 591,000 people arrived in the UK to live for a year or more.

Hardly bouncing off the walls mental


60 million+ is waaaay too much.


You're welcome to leave

Does Britain take every immigrant?



2006 numbers:
An estimated 400,000 people left the UK for a year or more
Some 591,000 people arrived in the UK to live for a year or more.

Hardly bouncing off the walls mental



You're welcome to leave

thats the plan batman!

there has been a massive influx of immigrants, certainally in the south east, a predicted 10million in 10 years is a fair old whack... its getting to the point where its not just here and there... its everyday noticable! immigration is DEFINATELY on the up in the UK, and i cant see it being of benefit, it only serves to excuse the lazy-arsed beniefits claimants who "cant get a job" because the poles/eastern europeans/'malians/asians will work for less...



the recent series on CH4 on immigration is worth checking out... i beleive "saturation" describes it perfectly.

thats the plan batman!


Which of course would make you an immigrant :)


there has been a massive influx of immigrants, certainally in the south east, a predicted 10million in 10 years is a fair old whack... its getting to the point where its not just here and there... its everyday noticable! immigration is DEFINATELY on the up in the UK, and i cant see it being of benefit, it only serves to excuse the lazy-arsed beniefits claimants who "cant get a job" because the poles/eastern europeans/'malians/asians will work for less...


According to "Optimum Population" (anti-immigration as you may be able to tell from the name).. "Officially projected to rise by about 0.7% a year to reach 71 million by 2031 - an increase of nearly 10 million".

Why do you call him AP?

His original nation was Andaras Prime, thusly AP...

Which of course would make you an immigrant :)



According to "Optimum Population" (anti-immigration as you may be able to tell from the name).. "Officially projected to rise by about 0.7% a year to reach 71 million by 2031 - an increase of nearly 10 million".

yep, but one who is wanted... i'm currently gaining qualificatios, and then will be on the hunt for commonwealth countries looking for people with my skills (altho those countries are always advertizing in industry-specific magazines for people like me, i dont feel it'll be too hard to find a job and visa), plus its not like i'm bringin my entire family and/or relatives plus everyone else from my village... :P

the information i consumed was dating back earlier... so we are "mid-increase"...

anyhoo, figures aside, you cant tell me you havn't noticed the influx of eastern europeans...

the majority are a reasonable bunch, but hell. there are LOADS of them...

This particular article for Mexico shows a 60+% approval rate.

http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/printDS/228686

As someone already noted, those are for tourist visas.

Simply to old is the main reason. People want to harp on the US but majority of nations have tough immigration standards.

Canada has a more accessible immigration system than the USA. See page 18.

http://www.cgdev.org/doc/cdi/2007/CDI%20Main%20Report_2007.pdf

It's been on the news here in Oklahoma. I'm sure if you are really interested you can research it. I don't have the information at my fingertips or I'd give it to you. Try one of the local radio stations that was talking about it last week, 1170 KFAQ. They might have something on their web site.

In other words, you don't have a source.

We let in more immigrants than any nation on earth.

Source?

It is not the fault of the US. We can not support every un-educated, non-English speaking, unskilled person in the world. Like Canada, we do not want immigrants that we may have to support but we welcome legal immigrants who can contribute to our society. I don't think that's asking to much.

This shows a profound misunderstanding of the situation of illegal workers in the USA. You are not supporting anyone. They work for a living. They don't get paid vacations or pension plans or medical insurance or any of the benefits that you take for granted. They just do manual labour in unsafe conditions so that the business owner can sell cheap to you abd still make a big profit. This is good for the economy. And it all depends on being able to hire an underclass of workers with no rights.

Your visa/green card system may work decently for those who are seeking education or skilled labour, but that has nothing to do with the thousands of unskilled labourers who pick fruit and install drywall. Is there a realistic option for an unskilled Latino labourer to sell his or her obviously needed labour in the USA? No there isn't. And there won't be as long as you have people making money off the current situation.

i am honestly mystified why more people seem unable to recognize this obvious fact, and the way their xenophobia plays right into it.

Unfortunately, that requires critical thinking. Most people simply aren't equipped to develop the ability to form their own hypotheses, hence their reliance on others to tell them what to think and their inability to question the motives of those willing to do so. *nod*

Taco? *hands out tacos*

Well, clearly it doesn't say that. So that's you presuming incorrectly. I was pointing out that a certain suggestion (here's the kicker - ONLY that suggestion, not any other suggestions you might want to pin on me to turn my argument into something that suits you) was disingenuous.

[QUOTE
Oh and for my "presumption" about your focus of Unskilled Non-English speaking people entering Illegally with no contacts here to help them...

Again, you seem to be incapable of keeping track of an argument. I said zilch about you "presuming" that I was "focusing" on those isssues.[/QUOTE]

Sorry Sirmomo1, but you don't even know what you're arguing. you actually said what you were focusing on and now you're saying you were NOT focusing on them. You're trying to turn your arguments around yet are failing miserably.

you made your suggestions and it was refuted by several people. you constantly tried to narrow the 'circumstances' to match the group YOU YOURSELF said you were focusing on and are now trying to backpedal.

I say you're done here.

Sorry Sirmomo1, but you don't even know what you're arguing. you actually said what you were focusing on and now you're saying you were NOT focusing on them. You're trying to turn your arguments around yet are failing miserably.

you made your suggestions and it was refuted by several people. you constantly tried to narrow the 'circumstances' to match the group YOU YOURSELF said you were focusing on and are now trying to backpedal.

I say you're done here.

I don't know how to reply to the above because it doesn't make sense. Do you have any comprehension skills?

Because I'm no fan of total anarchy and rampant crime.

You claim to be a Libertarian. Therefore, I presume you must consider large parts of the current US legal code to be unnecessary and unrequired, indeed, you probably feel they should be removed. Given that, how can you also claim that the law is worthy of respect?

There's more general problems with this as well. Is an unjust law worthy of respect? Was the law in Nazi Germany requiring all Jews to wear yellow stars worthy of respect? Should it have been? Is it morally wrong to break the law? Is it morally wrong to break an unjust law?

Of course, given that you're an American Libertarian, I take it you're rather in favour of the free market. If so, why do you object to free movement of labour, which is required for any sort of free market that gives workers a chance? Also, how do you justify positions that support punishing businesses for hiring illegal immigrants?

Oh, and finally. Why would disrespect for the law lead to anarchy and rampant crime? They're both self evident, but you're using them in their negative senses. I imagine you're using anarchy as roughly synonymous with chaotic, and rampant crime to imply massive murder, robbery, etc. Would it not be possible for humans to regulate their affairs with each other without the intervention of the state, and without the law? If not, why not? And what makes those humans composing the government inherently immune to such influences?

Canada has a more accessible immigration system than the USA.

This shows a profound misunderstanding of the situation of illegal workers in the USA. You are not supporting anyone. They work for a living. They don't get paid vacations or pension plans or medical insurance or any of the benefits that you take for granted. They just do manual labour in unsafe conditions so that the business owner can sell cheap to you abd still make a big profit. This is good for the economy. And it all depends on being able to hire an underclass of workers with no rights.

Your visa/green card system may work decently for those who are seeking education or skilled labour, but that has nothing to do with the thousands of unskilled labourers who pick fruit and install drywall. Is there a realistic option for an unskilled Latino labourer to sell his or her obviously needed labour in the USA? No there isn't. And there won't be as long as you have people making money off the current situation.

The US has extremely tough laws on illegal immigration, just one problem: they're NOT enforced!!! People are talking about ENFORCING current laws, not making new ones. If you are illegal, you don't have a right to be here.

Also, paid vacations...medical insurance, are you a CEO? Because all of the workers I know PAY for medical insurance and their paid vacations are limited at best to two weeks a years. In every other civilized country it's at least twice as much. And in all honesty, installing drywalls isn't that hard, neither is picking fruit, it's just that certain Americans love welfare and abuse it. How about, ahh gee, I don't know, offering the people on welfare these jobs and if they refuse taking them off of welfare?

The problem isn't that the US doesn't like immigrants; the problem is too many immigrants. The corporations need a semi-slave workforce, so they pay the government not to enforce tough illegal immigration laws, while at the same time spreading Xenophobia amongst average Americans to be anti-Latino. This way, if the Latinos form a union, well then the Union leaders can easily be deported. Meanwhile corporate expansion to countries like Mexico has made labor conditions so poor that they want to come here, to go from at least slave to semi-slave. Just look at those who illegally immigrate into Mexico, not the US, but Mexico. Imagine the desperation. That's why laws must be enforced. Because otherwise this will happen to the US:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ

Unfortunately, that requires critical thinking.

Source?!?

Most people simply aren't equipped to develop the ability to form their own hypotheses, hence their reliance on others to tell them what to think and their inability to question the motives of those willing to do so.


Source?


The lack of sourced material in this thread is unflammable.

Click Stand;13651576']

Quote [Lunatic]:
Most people simply aren't equipped to develop the ability to form their own hypotheses, hence their reliance on others to tell them what to think and their inability to question the motives of those willing to do so.


Source?

The lack of sourced material in this thread is unflammable.


Source: US edukashun system: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaN6Rx8X6_I

Click Stand;13651576']Source?!?




Source?


The lack of sourced material in this thread is unflammable.

Right Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU)

Hm. And there I was thinking that right wingers would generally support free movement of labour. And, for that matter, be in favour of the go-getting spirit required to leave you current country, and, at reasonable personal danger, travel to another one in search of a better life.

Obviously not though.

Not when people are breaking the law. There are people in Australia who claim refugee status some how are let in, and there are some who have taken up a life of crime, there a a few gangs in Melbourne made up of Kenyans who are now terrorizing the streets, dealing drugs and basicly breaking the law at every oppurtunity, and 'do gooders' wonder why we don't want them here.

Also, paid vacations...medical insurance, are you a CEO? Because all of the workers I know PAY for medical insurance and their paid vacations are limited at best to two weeks a years. In every other civilized country it's at least twice as much. And in all honesty, installing drywalls isn't that hard, neither is picking fruit, it's just that certain Americans love welfare and abuse it. How about, ahh gee, I don't know, offering the people on welfare these jobs and if they refuse taking them off of welfare?

That won't work. Unless you can somehow convince everyone that people on welfare should be treated like second class citizens, i.e. forced to work 18 hour days for $2.50 an hour.

Not when people are breaking the law. There are people in Australia who claim refugee status some how are let in, and there are some who have taken up a life of crime, there a a few gangs in Melbourne made up of Kenyans who are now terrorizing the streets, dealing drugs and basicly breaking the law at every oppurtunity, and 'do gooders' wonder why we don't want them here.

It would appear that Melbourne Police do not agree with you:

Sunshine police Inspector Scott Mahony says the transport hub probably has a higher incidence of crime than other areas of the suburb. Apart from robberies, most incidents involve schoolkids.

"Disputes over girlfriends, schoolyard grudges, inter-campus rivalries," he says. "But Africans are the minority of offenders. The majority are caucasian.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/in-depth/some-kind-of-beatup/2007/02/10/1170524341435.html

It actually portrays his feelings and mentality fairly well.

Yes i am nuts and proud! I hate immigration it is removing jobs for British people and taking our housing. Also i dont know how to quote some1 in another reply so whoever else wrote about my little gun smiley thing below this quote (lol i ramble ^^),
i am English, im just pretty much a patriot. I wouldnt go as far as nationalist as i do like and respecyt other countries :).

Now thats finished, COOKIES FOR ALL! cept the guy who changed the words in my 1st reply who gets hamster poo :P