NationStates Jolt Archive

For decades during the cold war, while the soviets oppressed the Orthodox Russian Church and all other forms of Christianity in Russia, western churches built an underground black market type of railroad (sans money) for smuggling Bibles and other Christian supplies (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,947040-1,00.html)to the Christians in hiding…

After the fall of the Soviet Union, the work proved how fruitful it had been by the reflourishment of Christianity in Russian territories… Perhaps too much so?

Some good:
~While church attendance in Russia is very low, polls show that Russians are embracing Russian Orthodoxy as part of their identity. In one recent poll, 71 percent of respondents described themselves as Russian Orthodox, up from 59 percent in 2003.

~"In essence, we have begun to live through a period that is like the second Baptism of Russia, just as there was before the Baptism of ancient Russia," he said, referring to Russia's adoption of Christianity in the year 988.

Some not so good?:
~"We deplore those who are led astray — those Jehovah's Witnesses, Baptists, evangelicals, Pentecostals and many others who cut Christ's robes like bandits, who are like the soldiers who crucified Christ, who ripped apart Christ's holy coat," declared the priest, the Rev. Aleksei Zorin.

Link to multiple page story ~ negative in outlook (http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/04/24/europe/24church.php?page=1) (but it has some good information in it all the same.)

So what do you think? Is this good for Christianity in Russia? Is it bad? Is the Russian Orthodoxy trying to practice true Christianity or is Putin and his friends trying to take over the church, even though they themselves may remain individually as soviet atheists, just to hold sway and manipulate the 'organizations' of the people (like the article seems to indicate)?

Sad, but I think a good percentage of humans stlill need to believe in something. Take one thing away (socialism/communism), and they'll just turn to another.

i think religious freedom is a good thing but that it will take russia a while to work out the kinks just as it is having problems working out the kinks of democracy

Well, it's certainly inspired Taverner and Pärt, so I'm all for it when used for musical purposes.

Some not so good?:
~"We deplore those who are led astray — those Jehovah's Witnesses, Baptists, evangelicals, Pentecostals and many others who cut Christ's robes like bandits, who are like the soldiers who crucified Christ, who ripped apart Christ's holy coat," declared the priest, the Rev. Aleksei Zorin.
My disagreement with him is that he targets individuals rather than movements. You can't point at someone and say "You're a Jehovah's Witness, therefore your evangelistic tendencies cloud your perception of Christ as a humble healer"; you have to attack the ideologies directly rather than go for a human throat.

On the other hand, I agree entirely with the sentiment that the trends in Western Christianity towards evangelism, literal interpretation, political lobbying and so on have been nothing but harmful. Jesus was not interested in the self righteous, the church fundraisers, the strict adherence to law, the establishment of a religious state and what not, and it is shambolic and disrespectful to use his name in an organisation that is built around these factors.

In any case, I'm glad to see that people in Russia are finally getting back to a state where they can talk about these things freely. I just hope Putin and his cronies don't screw it up on them.

Bad. Its more Christians.

On the other hand, I agree entirely with the sentiment that the trends in Western Christianity towards evangelism, literal interpretation, political lobbying and so on have been nothing but harmful. Jesus was not interested in the self righteous, the church fundraisers, the strict adherence to law, the establishment of a religious state and what not, and it is shambolic and disrespectful to use his name in an organisation that is built around these factors.


The establishment of a religious state is also the goal of traditional Eastern Christianity, not only Western Christianity.

Psst... You made a mistake in the thread title. I don't know what orthodaxy means but it sounds nasty.

Psst... You made a mistake in the thread title. I don't know what orthodaxy means but it sounds nasty.

Yes, I noticed that about two seconds after posting the thread... I've been resisting the urge to point a gun at my own head ever since... :p

i think religious freedom is a good thing but that it will take russia a while to work out the kinks just as it is having problems working out the kinks of democracy

They've been trying to work out the "kinks" of a transition to democracy since the middle of the nineteenth century, and have not yet found themselves able to do so. I wouldn't be hopeful.

Yes, I noticed that about two seconds after posting the thread... I've been resisting the urge to point a gun at my own head ever since... :p

Figured as much (except for the gun part :D)

Anyways, I am waiting to see when we will see a proper descendant of Rasputin. All those monks do nowdays is preach and sell bibles. Where's the blood? Where's the poison? Where's the sex scandals?

I think it's long overdue.

Figured as much (except for the gun part :D)

Anyways, I am waiting to see when we will see a proper descendant of Rasputin. All those monks do nowdays is preach and sell bibles. Where's the blood? Where's the poison? Where's the sex scandals?

I think it's long overdue.

The best Rasputin ever for me was the one in the movie ¨Anastacia¨. He and the bat were a hoot!

The best Rasputin ever for me was the one in the movie ¨Anastacia¨. He and the bat were a hoot!

Who?
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee218/Balderdash71964/Rasputin.jpg

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee218/Balderdash71964/RasputinImitators.jpg

;)

Who?
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee218/Balderdash71964/Rasputin.jpg

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee218/Balderdash71964/RasputinImitators.jpg

;)

Third pic. LOL!

I see it as good, as it provides a power base in Russia apart from the government. As to it's intolerance of other religions, it will have little choice but to get over that - they're here to stay.

I see it as good, as it provides a power base in Russia apart from the government. As to it's intolerance of other religions, it will have little choice but to get over that - they're here to stay.

Orthodox Christianity is traditionally fairly tolerant of other religions. Its had to be, consdering most of its membership is in Russia and Central Asia. It seems the patriarchy has caught the good ol' 'ZOMG OTER PEEPZ R EBIL' syndrome from the Pope.

Where's the option for, "I don't give a fuck either way"?

Where's the option for, "I don't give a fuck either way"?

I left it next to the; thread topic is clearly identified by the thread title, do not click if you don't care either way... :rolleyes:

The establishment of a religious state is also the goal of traditional Eastern Christianity, not only Western Christianity.

Cool, since the vatican city exists we can start dismantling churches! ^_^

Really, unless this becomes an apparatus of the state again, I can't see how this would be a bad thing. Bringing the Czar back to rule through it would be pretty badass though (as well as the best title ever: Chief Procurator of the Holy Synod), as long as the Czar isn't Putin.

There were ten poll options available to you, where's the one for "why the hell should I care?"

I don't really care one way or the other, but in my mind religious freedom is a good thing, so I'm gonna have to go with its a good thing.

There were ten poll options available to you, where's the one for "why the hell should I care?"
Umm, not voting would be the same thing.

How exactly could this be a bad thing?

Umm, not voting would be the same thing.

But we're NSG'ers! We must have something to clcik!

But we're NSG'ers! We must have something to clcik!

umm...ummm...I can't think of anything, sorry.

The establishment of a religious state is also the goal of traditional Eastern Christianity, not only Western Christianity.
Well, yeah, but I can still agree with what a hypocrite says even if I don't agree with what they do.

http://www.gifs.net/Animation11/Geography_and_History/Russia/Rasputin.gif

Rasputin gets jiggy with it!

How exactly could this be a bad thing?

I'm not sure, but currently it's a vote of 16 good and 14 bad, so it's a toss up.

But I assume that most of the 'bad' voters are against any form of Christianity growth, while the one bad vote from a Christian is 'probably' because they assume that the article is correct and the people in charge of the Church hierarchy aren't real Christians and they are suppressing the real Christian movement which is the underground.

http://www.gifs.net/Animation11/Geography_and_History/Russia/Rasputin.gif

Rasputin gets jiggy with it!

Okay, you win :D

I'm not sure, but currently it's a vote of 16 good and 14 bad, so it's a toss up.

But I assume that most of the 'bad' voters are against any form of Christianity growth, while the one bad vote from a Christian is 'probably' because they assume that the article is correct and the people in charge of the Church hierarchy aren't real Christians and they are suppressing the real Christian movement which is the underground.

Hmm.

Sounds logical.

I'm not even Christian, but I think its a good the the Russian Orthodox church is recovering after years of suppression by the Soviets.

Well, yeah, but I can still agree with what a hypocrite says even if I don't agree with what they do.

On this particular issue the Russian church isn't hypocritical, because it is not questioning Western Christians' belief that the mixing of religion and politics is desirable. The Russian church would agree that Western Christians should establish religious states in the West, but the dispute arises when Western Christians attempt to spread their brand of Christianity on the Russian Orthodox Church's turf.

On this particular issue the Russian church isn't hypocritical, because it is not questioning Western Christians' belief that the mixing of religion and politics is desirable. The Russian church would agree that Western Christians should establish religious states in the West, but the dispute arises when Western Christians attempt to spread their brand of Christianity on the Russian Orthodox Church's turf.
Ahh. Gotcha. Still, that dispute takes the form of counter-protestant polemic rather than just asking protestantism to move elsewhere, and that criticism is not entirely unreasonable; all be they playing the man with the log in his eye in making it.

Okay, you win :D

Благодарю вас так много!:D

I left it next to the; thread topic is clearly identified by the thread title, do not click if you don't care either way... :rolleyes:

"Good or bad" is far too polarising. There is no middle ground option embracing the neutral stance.

But I assume that most of the 'bad' voters are against any form of Christianity growth...
It's true I don't much care for Christianity in general, but I consider medieval-throwback Christianity to be worse than other forms.

It's true I don't much care for Christianity in general, but I consider medieval-throwback Christianity to be worse than other forms.

Orthodox Christianity isnt anymore of a throwback than Catholic Christianity. The ROC does tend to be more traditional, of course, but the individual Orthodox Churches vary as much as the various Protestant sects.

Sad, but I think a good percentage of humans stlill need to believe in something. Take one thing away (socialism/communism), and they'll just turn to another.
I certainly believe a "good percentage" of people need to believe in something. 100%, to be exact.

I know little about Russian Orthodoxy and so can't comment on whether or not it has a "good" ideology. Extremism of any kind is bad, of course, but as long as it doesn't become a repeat of the Iranian Fundamentalist Revolution, fine by me. I would say this is better than communism, only because the people are freely choosing to become Russian Orthodox.

I certainly believe a "good percentage" of people need to believe in something. 100%, to be exact.

I know little about Russian Orthodoxy and so can't comment on whether or not it has a "good" ideology. Extremism of any kind is bad, of course, but as long as it doesn't become a repeat of the Iranian Fundamentalist Revolution, fine by me. I would say this is better than communism, only because the people are freely choosing to become Russian Orthodox.

Well, no, not quite. From personal experience, I can assure you it's not 100%. It's not even close to that.

And some people did and still do freely choose to believe in communism. It's in effect a faith like any other... but you do have a point. Be wary of people who believe to strongly in anything.

Well, no, not quite. From personal experience, I can assure you it's not 100%. It's not even close to that.


Not necessarily a religion, or even something spiritual. But something.

And I realize that plenty of people liked communism. But it was still the "state religion," so to speak, and so dissidents didn't have a choice. Now, those who don't like Russian Orthodoxy have at least political freedom.

Not necessarily a religion, or even something spiritual. But something.

And I realize that plenty of people liked communism. But it was still the "state religion," so to speak, and so dissidents didn't have a choice. Now, those who don't like Russian Orthodoxy have at least political freedom.

Just like all those journalists had the freedom to vote for whom they pleased, and speak out against Putin. That worked out well for them didn't it?

we need to surround Russia with anti missile missiles (when the technology works) and stop their under water expansion by claiming all the places under the north pole for the US

Ahh. Gotcha. Still, that dispute takes the form of counter-protestant polemic rather than just asking protestantism to move elsewhere, and that criticism is not entirely unreasonable; all be they playing the man with the log in his eye in making it.

The counter-protestant polemic tends to be more culturally- or even teritorially- rather than purely theologically-motivated. As you pointed out, the priest was quite keen on condemning individual protestant believers, apparently even more so than on attacking the protestant religion itself. To an observer with western sensibilities it does seem quite odd.

I think this is a net gain on the part of Russia. While Orthodoxy has tended more towards centralization than Catholicism, since the latter was in a more polycentric system that competed against other authorities, I think that the sense of community and trust that having a common religion would be immensely positive.

It's a shame Russians so quickly forget the tool of antisemitism, racism, oppression and that cesspool of servility the Orthodox Church represented in Tsardom. It's only fit that once as a justification for feudal despotism and slavery, this religion should now be a justification for bourgeois oppression.

I'm glad on two accounts.

First, as a Christian, I am glad that there are more people in Russia that are finding the light of Christ.

Secondly, I make note of the fact that while "church attendance is low, Russians are...part of their identity". I think that at least identifying with an established church associated with a particualar ethnicity is good. Though not a Catholic believer, I still often attand Catholic services because it brings me closer to my Irish heritage.

It's good overall, because now Russian Christians can express themselves better. The Red Army was the only Communist Institution that allowed religion, also was the most progressive one. Russians have a history of Christianity and the KGB's plan to liquidate religion and turn Russia into an Atheistic bastion failed, it's good to see Putin finally seeing the light and allowing religion to flourish.

And religion in Russia is doing good, they're giving money to poor, educating orphans, I haven't seen them get too political yet. Only political statements they've made so far is that the majority of Russians support Medvedev and that Serbs in Kosovo need Humanitarian Aid, both of which are facts. As long as Russian Orthodox Chruch doesn't get entrenched into politics like the Southern-Baptists Convention did, it's all good. Maybe they'll even build another Glorious Church, Russia needs more of those :)

It's good overall, because now Russian Christians can express themselves better. The Red Army was the only Communist Institution that allowed religion, also was the most progressive one. Russians have a history of Christianity and the KGB's plan to liquidate religion and turn Russia into an Atheistic bastion failed, it's good to see Putin finally seeing the light and allowing religion to flourish.

And religion in Russia is doing good, they're giving money to poor, educating orphans, I haven't seen them get too political yet. Only political statements they've made so far is that the majority of Russians support Medvedev and that Serbs in Kosovo need Humanitarian Aid, both of which are facts. As long as Russian Orthodox Chruch doesn't get entrenched into politics like the Southern-Baptists Convention did, it's all good. Maybe they'll even build another Glorious Church, Russia needs more of those :)

You obviously don't know the history of the Russian Orthodox Church, it is nothing but an arm of the Ruling Class, once upon a time it was for upholding the feudal order which kept tens of millions of Russian peasants illiterate, superstitious and downtrodden in poverty, and just now it is used by the bourgeois Russian State to hide their capitalistic oppression and xenophobic racism behind.

Religion is a cancer, a disease, which must be purged from society.

You obviously don't know the history of the Russian Orthodox Church, it is nothing but an arm of the Ruling Class, once upon a time it was for upholding the feudal order which kept tens of millions of Russian peasants illiterate, superstitious and downtrodden in poverty, and just now it is used by the bourgeois Russian State to hide their capitalistic oppression and xenophobic racism behind.

Religion is a cancer, a disease, which must be purged from society.

Who was the first to build non-military schools for boys and girls in Russia? Oh yeah, the Russian Orthodox Church. You might want to re-read Leo Tolstoy's view on religion. Also, during the Mongol Period, it was the Church that kept the Russian Culture alive, when over half of Russia was over-ran. It was the Elite Nobility, people like Count Peter Pahlen, that kept the Russian Population in poverty, not the Church. And if religion was as bad as you say, why did the Red Army, the USSR's most progressive institution allow it? The people who kept most of Russia in poverty were the Land-Owning Nobility, who ruled their estates through ruthless vassals while partying in St. Petersburg.

Look at the early Russian Saints, all worthy rulers. In Russia capitalistic opression was enforced by radical mobs, like the Oprichnina under Ivan the Terrible, who only became terrible after some moronic nobles decided to kill of his wife. In addition to the mobs it was a lack of education, which religion was trying to combat! Religion did way more good then harm for Russia.

The groups that are using religion for their own agenda are the problem, (read US Republican Party) not religion itself.

i'm not a christian and major shrug. as long as they don't have a second comming of rasputin. although he might have been amusing to watch from a safe distance.

i'd rather see a rebirth of very narrow gauge, people sized, noncombustion propelled railways, everywhere, in a cleaner, more environmentally friendly form, to replace the automobile.

what would be really neat in a sense of what religeon of all sorts is supposed to be about, or claims to be, one way or another, might be a rebirth of baba yaga and whatever that part of the world may have had for beliefs indiginously, BEFORE it was over run by any impostions from outside, not just christian ones neccessarily either.

i really don't know anything about what that might be. and i'm not talking about the negative aspects, whatever those might be, any such thing might have been used as an excuse for either.

diversity is a good thing, and i don't see homoginiety of ritual and dogma as being very likely the will of a god that is anything like what modern beliefs claim it to be.

so perhapse its a small good thing, though still not, that i can see, a major anything. good OR bad.

=^^=
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Bad. Its more Christians.Orthodox are entirely different from western Christians. western atheists are as ethnocentric as zealous protestants about assuming the western church is the only one.The establishment of a religious state is also the goal of traditional Eastern Christianity, not only Western Christianity.I'm not sure that's entirely accurate...the Copts broke off because there was too much government influence.

western atheists are as ethnocentric as zealous protestants about assuming the western church is the only one.

Bullshit.

Well this seems to be the right thread to say:

Happy Easter Everyone :) (It's Easter in Russia now, Julian Calendar vs. Gregorian Calendar....)

And to the guy talking about Baba Yaga and diversity of religions: I liked your post, so here's a tip: if you ever get the chance, visit Kazan, you'll be amazed by the religious diversity there :)

Just like all those journalists had the freedom to vote for whom they pleased, and speak out against Putin. That worked out well for them didn't it?

Hang it, you're even more annoying when you mention facts.

Russia is far from being a land of freedom, or even that democratic. But this specific example, of people not being forced to vote communist or agree with a certain ideology, is an improvement.

Hang it, you're even more annoying when you mention facts.

Russia is far from being a land of freedom, or even that democratic. But this specific example, of people not being forced to vote communist or agree with a certain ideology, is an improvement.

If by Democracy you mean Free Elections, then Russia's a Democracy. The OSCE isn't the final authority, and Medvedev was too popular not to be elected, his opposition too fragmented, and the endorsement of five political parties certainly helped. But freedom of speech in Russia only exists in limted circles, and it is still heavily regulated, although it too is improving. At least Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago finally got published. Let's hope Russia keeps on taking it one step at a time and in the right direction.

Back to religion, it is an improvenment, I'm tired of any government telling me what to believe or not to believe. Most Russians remained Orthodox under the Stalin-Khruschev-Brezhnev regime, but were too afraid to admit it, geez, I wonder why *cough* Gulag *cough*. Thankfully Putin figured out that maybe, if people were allowed to believe what they felt was right, they would be better off. About time someone in the Russian Government figured that out.

The church and the government never mix. They won't in Russia any more then they did anywhere else. If dissent is not free in the church, it will grow corrupt, just as it has every time it has been enforced by a state entity.

You obviously don't know the history of the Russian Orthodox Church, it is nothing but an arm of the Ruling Class, once upon a time it was for upholding the feudal order which kept tens of millions of Russian peasants illiterate, superstitious and downtrodden in poverty, and just now it is used by the bourgeois Russian State to hide their capitalistic oppression and xenophobic racism behind.

Religion is a cancer, a disease, which must be purged from society.

Andaras, go and re-read the Communist Manifesto. Marx didn't say what you (and a lot of other communists) think he did.

i still thing the poll needs an "i'm not a christian but i think its mostly harmless" option.

every good or bad needs a mostly harmless, and that DOESN'T mean someone doesn't care.

a LOT of things ARE neither good nor bad, but 'mostly harmless'.

most of belief falls into that catigory, or a lot of it does.
fanatacims of every stripe IS harmful, but aside from that kind of over the topness, genuine and honest belief, belief that loves what it doesn't know without claiming to, or beating anyone else over the head for not claiming to, is at least, mostly harmless.

(oh yah, and i loved the bat too, and that slinky thing, whatever it was also)

=^^=
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