NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, so in the last thread (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=554175) we sort of generally established where the south is, but there were a significant number of people who didn't like the lumping. solution? part 2 thread with new polling, excluding places that are in for sure.

oh, and i decided that contrasts between northern and southern florida warranted a split. but if you choose just one, you need to specify the boundary area.

come on nsg, if we don't decide this the south will cease to exist

come on nsg, if we don't decide this the south will cease to exist

I don't think we would much mind.

come on nsg, if we don't decide this the south will cease to exist
Totally cast the first vote. Haven't read the first thread so probably all wrong, but eh.

Did anybody actually consider Arkansas, North Carolina, Tennessee, or Virginia not to be Southern states? :confused:

Kentucky may be questioned as a border state, yes, but seeing as the northernmost statue of Robert E. Lee was on my Aunt Rosemary's tour of Lexington Ky. (along with Col. Sanders gravesite), Ky is unquestinably South in my books.

West Virginia may have broken with the CSA South, but it remains Appalachian South culturaly, linguistically, economically, and demographically.

Texas west of Dallas (ie Ft. Worth), South Florida, Missouri, and Maryland are up for non "South" status sure.

Just check what they called the Civil War in history class. If it's "Civil War", you're in the North, if it's "War of Northern Aggression" you're in the South, and if it's "War Between the States" you're in a border state.

Just check what they called the Civil War in history class. If it's "Civil War", you're in the North, if it's "War of Northern Aggression" you're in the South, and if it's "War Between the States" you're in a border state.

I'm in Georgia and it was the Civil War. :eek:

Georgia is a Northern State! :D

I'm in Canada. They're all south.

There are a lot of dirt poor black people down South who don't live much better than their enslaved ancestors. Also many rednecks, who live on the opposite side of the river from the black people. The ferry boat on the river is broken and isn't going to be fixed anytime soon. The people who don't fit into those two categories are carpetbaggers from another part of the country, who all live in Atlanta. That was my experience visiting the Deep South.

I'm in Georgia and it was the Civil War. :eek:

Georgia is a Northern State! :D

And my Nana in El Paso always called it the War of Northern Aggression. Same for my family in Kentuckey. So that put's West Texas and Ky solidly in the south and Georgia in the North.

Right....

There are a lot of dirt poor black people down South who don't live much better than their enslaved ancestors. Also many rednecks, who live on the opposite side of the river from the black people. The ferry boat on the river is broken and isn't going to be fixed anytime soon. The people who don't fit into those two categories are carpetbaggers from another part of the country, who all live in Atlanta. That was my experience visiting the Deep South.

While a bit tounge in cheek, and ignoring huge strata of Southern culture, you did kinda get it...

you need to add the eastern half of Texas. Or we Texans coming to shoot you.

Dammit, all of these states are in the South. What's wrong with you people?

oh and also indiana

"Ky is unquestinably South in my books"

Kentucky was divided andthe southern part would be central Kentucky. Where parts of eastern kentucky were completely northern. Take Harlan County for example it was 100% northern.

To tell you the truth Missouri had more southern minded people than kentucky after all didn't Lincoln say "We need God on our side but we must have Kentucky"?
Researching history is the best way to find these things out instead of assuming anything.;)

Did anybody actually consider Arkansas, North Carolina, Tennessee, or Virginia not to be Southern states? :confused:

difficult to tell. we had 30% (usian election rounding) saying that the mergers were no good, and therefore the numbers from them were suspect.

The South is to the South, as is the North to the North.
Those states are to the West.

"Ky is unquestinably South in my books"

Kentucky was divided andthe southern part would be central Kentucky. Where parts of eastern kentucky were completely northern. Take Harlan County for example it was 100% northern.

To tell you the truth Missouri had more southern minded people than kentucky after all didn't Lincoln say "We need God on our side but we must have Kentucky"?
Researching history is the best way to find these things out instead of assuming anything.;)

Researching history is all fine and dandy, but boots on the ground, so to speak, trump historical research, as to how a place is. Granted, my experience with Ky is rather limited, but it's beyond dry dusty books.

Again, my Aunt's tour consisted largely of "there's the racetrack, there's Col. Sanders's grave site, and there's the northernmost statue of Robert E. Lee."

My esxperience of KY was definately Southern. YMMV.

Dammit, all of these states are in the South. What's wrong with you people?

oh and also indiana

Indiana is a lake away from Canada!

oh and also indiana

also, downstate illinois

Indiana is a lake away from Canada!

two lakes and a michigan. anyway, i refuse to recognize indiana's claim to any of lake michigan.
fuckers.

Surely the South starts at the Watford gap? :confused:

Or am I thinking of a different North-South divide? :D

Indiana is a lake away from Canada!

Indiana, blissfully unaware of this, continues to display Confederate flags for some inexplicable reason.

Dammit, all of these states are in the South. What's wrong with you people?

oh and also indiana
o_O Indiana is as Midwest as they come.

Just check what they called the Civil War in history class. If it's "Civil War", you're in the North, if it's "War of Northern Aggression" you're in the South, and if it's "War Between the States" you're in a border state.

And if it's "War of Southern Aggression"? Keep in mind that we didn't start the war by attacking Fort Sumter...

Didn't you know Pennsylvania is Philly and Pittsburgh with Alabama inbetween.

o_O Indiana is as Midwest as they come.

as declared officially by nsg, even

Based on statements made by a friend from the area, I would like to petition to add the city of Riverside, CA to the South.

bump for great justice

SWEET TEA

Yes? South.
No? Not south.

Also, Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_United_States).

Did anybody actually consider Arkansas, North Carolina, Tennessee, or Virginia not to be Southern states? :confused:

Kentucky may be questioned as a border state, yes, but seeing as the northernmost statue of Robert E. Lee was on my Aunt Rosemary's tour of Lexington Ky. (along with Col. Sanders gravesite), Ky is unquestinably South in my books.

West Virginia may have broken with the CSA South, but it remains Appalachian South culturaly, linguistically, economically, and demographically.

Texas west of Dallas (ie Ft. Worth), South Florida, Missouri, and Maryland are up for non "South" status sure.

Most of us Northeastern North carolinians don't consider Virginia to be southern.... then again most of us have only been to Virginia Beach, Norfolk, and chesapeake, which are DEFINITELY not very southern until you get to the very rural parts of Chesapeake and then all of a sudden wind up in rural Northeastern North Carolina.

But that's only if you're talking culture-- like the rednecks and fundies. And Hampton Roads has significantly less rednecks/fundies than NENC and the rest of Virginia.

By location and history, yes Virginia is southern.

By location and history, yes Virginia is southern.

Virginia north of Charlottesville or Fredricksburg is not part of the south, though. That's all metropolitan suburbs of DC, and isn't by any stretch of the imagination southern.

The South is where everyone gets dummer, fatter, and blacker. In my mind, that's south of the Mason-Dixon line.

The South is where everyone gets dummer, fatter, and blacker. In my mind, that's south of the Mason-Dixon line.

Offensive much?

The South,
Where the black people are lazy,
Where the White people are just as Lazy,
and the white people are mad at the
black people for being lazy.

Virginia north of Charlottesville or Fredricksburg is not part of the south, though. That's all metropolitan suburbs of DC, and isn't by any stretch of the imagination southern.

You have a good point there. I've only been to that part of Virginia a few times, it really isn't Southern at all.

The South is where everyone gets dummer, fatter, and blacker. In my mind, that's south of the Mason-Dixon line.

Blacker? are you sure about that? There aren't too many black people where I'm at; most people down here are white and many of the whites are racist.

And not everyone down here is unintelligent and overweight. Me, for example, and many people I know.

Dammit, all of these states are in the South. What's wrong with you people?

oh and also indianaindiana? an ancestor of mine was born in Canada and died in Indiana, USA without ever leaving the town he was born in...no state that used to be part of Canada is southern...

The South is where everyone gets dummer, fatter, and blacker. In my mind, that's south of the Mason-Dixon line.I think you meant dumber, but don't listen to me, I live in Arkansas.

I think you meant dumber, but don't listen to me, I live in Arkansas.

Pwned.

The South is where everyone gets dummer,

The irony, it burns!

The irony, it burns!

I think it's delicious.

But then, I'm also writing a paper on Shakespeare so that might be amplifying my appetite.

Ironically, though, I've met some really frigging stupid people in the south. "But what about when they dropped the [nuclear] bombs on China, or Japan, or wherever that was?"

I went to an entire highschool of stupid people in the north, though.

SWEET TEA

Yes? South.
No? Not south.


That would make the southern 1/3 of Illinois in the south, then.

I agree :)

indiana? an ancestor of mine was born in Canada and died in Indiana, USA without ever leaving the town he was born in...no state that used to be part of Canada is southern...

Really because my understanding was Indiana was part of the US after the war for independence. which predates Canada. however from 1774 until the end of US war for independence Indiana was considered part of the Providence of Quebec under the the Quebec Act of 1774

The South is where everyone gets dummer, fatter, and blacker. In my mind, that's south of the Mason-Dixon line.

I spot a level 5 troll casting a level 2 ignorance spell. I will now roll my D20 to see if I make a scalding reply.

Are you south of the Mason Dixon line? Dummer isn't really a word...

A natural 20!

(Sorry for the Nerd humor :D)

I don't think W. Virginia belongs.

I spot a level 5 troll casting a level 2 ignorance spell. I will now roll my D20 to see if I make a scalding reply.

Are you south of the Mason Dixon line? Dummer isn't really a word...

A natural 20!

(Sorry for the Nerd humor :D)

The question is: Did you actually take out a d20 and roll?

I would but I'm at the library writing a paper and, unlike several of my friends, I don't carry my dice around with me.

The question is: Did you actually take out a d20 and roll?

I would but I'm at the library writing a paper and, unlike several of my friends, I don't carry my dice around with me.
I'm at my house, so yeah I rolled. And it only took me 3 tries!:D

I'm at my house, so yeah I rolled. And it only took me 3 tries!:D

Good man. Fil, my level 6 gestaulted duskblade-6, wizard-5/Sandshaper-1, salutes you with his falchion that if you had to describe it you would describe it as being great.

The South is where everyone gets dummer, fatter, and blacker. In my mind, that's south of the Mason-Dixon line.

So if a couple of "dum" Southerners such as Vegan Nuts and myself are intelligent enough to spell properly, what's that say about people who misspell their insults?

The South,
Where the black people are lazy,
Where the White people are just as Lazy,
and the white people are mad at the
black people for being lazy.

Well, at least your flames are spelled correctly...

I think you meant dumber, but don't listen to me, I live in Arkansas.


Dang, beaten to the punch.

[QUOTE=greed and death]Really because my understanding was Indiana was part of the US after the war for independence. which predates Canada. however from 1774 until the end of US war for independence Indiana was considered part of the Providence of Quebec under the the Quebec Act of 1774

1) "Indiana" did not exist as an entity until well after 1774.

2) The US did not exists prior to 1774, and therefore nothing could have been a part of it.

3) The area that became Indiana was not part of what would become the US until after the Revolutionary War, and wasn't fully under control of the US until after the War of 1812.

By 1800 the population of the Northwest Territory had increased and spread over a territory so vast, in centers so widely separated that the administration of government and operation of the courts became very difficult in many instances, and correspondingly ineffective. A reduction of the area and administration at shorter range became desirable, and hence, in the year named, the most thickly populated section in the eastern part was set off from the remainder. This eastern portion, bounded by the treaty line established by General Wayne's treaty with the Indians of the northwest at Greenville, in 1795, comprised the present State of Ohio and the eastern part of Michigan. Until the creation of the State of Ohio, in 1802, this still retained the name of the "Northwest Territory." The western portion, comprising all the rest of the original territory, and extending westward to the Mississippi River and northward to Canada, was reorganized under the name of "Indiana Territory."
http://www.countyhistory.com/history/056.htm

After first being claimed by the Kingdom of France, then the Kingdom of Great Britain during the mid colonial era, the territory of Indiana ended up nominally under the control of the United States following the American Revolution. The region came firmly under American control following the War of 1812. Indiana was granted statehood and admitted to the Union in 1816,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Indiana

Virginia north of Charlottesville or Fredricksburg is not part of the south, though. That's all metropolitan suburbs of DC, and isn't by any stretch of the imagination southern.

Yes, I just made it!

Yes, I just made it!

I dunno. Do restaurants in your area serve sweet tea?

I dunno. Do restaurants in your area serve sweet tea?

Most do. However, most people drink non-sweetened tea, or are like me and ask for non-sweetened tea and then add sugar. I'd say it is on the border of the South.

I'm in Canada. They're all south.

Psh, Crazy Canadians, lol...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Southern_American_English.svg/590px-Southern_American_English.svg.png

Again i post the Map of states that speak Southern American English Dialect from Wikipedia as the Definitive answer...

When you look at a sunrise, its to your right.

Most do. However, most people drink non-sweetened tea, or are like me and ask for non-sweetened tea and then add sugar. I'd say it is on the border of the South.

You can get sweet tea in a public restaurant. You are in the south.

Really because my understanding was Indiana was part of the US after the war for independence. which predates Canada. however from 1774 until the end of US war for independence Indiana was considered part of the Providence of Quebec under the the Quebec Act of 1774haven't the foggiest - I just know from genealogy research that this particular guy was considered Canadian at birth and american at death and that those occurred in the same place. I was surprised because I always like to find new ethnicities in the family and I was hoping he'd be French (don't think he was) - he just was born when it was technically considered Canadian territory, though. Daistallia posted a bit on how that could be...I don't have any primary source documents but the family tree stuff that various relatives have uploaded to a particular file is for the most part fairly trustworthy.

You can get sweet tea in a public restaurant. You are in the south.

It does depend, though. I mean, in the colored resteraunts...
Kidding! I don't live that far removed from the rest of the country.

So if a couple of "dum" Southerners such as Vegan Nuts and myself are intelligent enough to spell properly, what's that say about people who misspell their insults?


Not dumb, but dumber. And they talk slower, and are more often genetically related :).

Did anybody actually consider Arkansas, North Carolina, Tennessee, or Virginia not to be Southern states? :confused:

Kentucky may be questioned as a border state, yes, but seeing as the northernmost statue of Robert E. Lee was on my Aunt Rosemary's tour of Lexington Ky. (along with Col. Sanders gravesite), Ky is unquestinably South in my books.

West Virginia may have broken with the CSA South, but it remains Appalachian South culturaly, linguistically, economically, and demographically.

Texas west of Dallas (ie Ft. Worth), South Florida, Missouri, and Maryland are up for non "South" status sure.

I would also say that any portion of Georgia inside of Interstate-285 (Atlanta and some inner suburbs/Brooklyn-type affairs) would have to be disqualified as well. They drink Sweet Tea, but otherwise they probably have more in common with Southern California or New York, probably Southern California as they love their cars.

Well, at least your flames are spelled correctly...





1) "Indiana" did not exist as an entity until well after 1774.

2) The US did not exists prior to 1774, and therefore nothing could have been a part of it.

3) The area that became Indiana was not part of what would become the US until after the Revolutionary War, and wasn't fully under control of the US until after the War of 1812.


http://www.countyhistory.com/history/056.htm


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Indiana

My guess is since your from japan you were unable to catch some of the meaning. I will try and elaborate for you.
The first thing of mine you quoted is a joke not a flame,
Most Americans will catch the humor and a large number likely know I got the quote from an episode of family guy a popular cartoon here.

I think you missed the point about Indiana not being part of Canada.
Next, in American English it is proper to refer to area of land by its modern place name. For instance if I say Texas 1,000 years ago was populated by many more native American tribes then today it is a general assumption that I am referring to the land of modern day Texas not the political entity.
So for your ascertain that Indiana did not exist to be correct, there would have to be a void of nonexistence where Indiana is today.

Though your argument did prove my point that Indiana was never part of Canada, as it was part of the US (as the northwester territory) before Canada existed. and part of the providence of Quebec under the British and part of New France under the French before that before that.

anyways TOEFLしけんがんばれ

When you look at a sunrise, its to your right.

That would be south, not the South. When I look at the sunrise, the South is either below my feet (direct method) or, following the curvature of the Earth, to the west.

My guess is since your from japan you were unable to catch some of the meaning.

Yes, I'm a dumb Jap who doesn't quite catch your inestimable Engrish. :rolleyes:

Wrong answer. Try again, and this time please learn the meaning of expatriate.

I will try and elaborate for you.

Next time, try to be less condecsending and don't jump to stupid conclusions. You'll look less foolish if you don't try and talk down to people you assume are foreign and who turn out to be from your own country.

The first thing of mine you quoted is a joke not a flame,
Most Americans will catch the humor and a large number likely know I got the quote from an episode of family guy a popular cartoon here.

You may have intended it as a joke, but I've never seen that program.

I think you missed the point about Indiana not being part of Canada.

Let's review what I was responding to...

Really because my understanding was Indiana was part of the US after the war for independence. which predates Canada. however from 1774 until the end of US war for independence Indiana was considered part of the Providence of Quebec under the the Quebec Act of 1774
1) "Indiana" did not exist as an entity until well after 1774.

2) The US did not exists prior to 1774, and therefore nothing could have been a part of it.

3) The area that became Indiana was not part of what would become the US until after the Revolutionary War, and wasn't fully under control of the US until after the War of 1812.

My response was to your claims that Indiana was an exitant entity in 1774 and Indiana was part of the US prior to 1774. Nowhere did I claim to be making any statement regarding Canada.

Next, in American English it is proper to refer to area of land by its modern place name.

Again with the condecsension.

For instance if I say Texas 1,000 years ago was populated by many more native American tribes then today it is a general assumption that I am referring to the land of modern day Texas not the political entity.

I'm going to disagree with you strongly and specifically on that point. When I took my Texas history courses in school, it was quite clear that when, for example, they talked about Stephen F. Austin's Firts Hundred colony, it was Mexico.

So for your ascertain that Indiana did not exist to be correct, there would have to be a void of nonexistence where Indiana is today.

Errr...say what. Did you perchance mean "ascertainment"? Are you certain you are the native speaker?

Secondly, I did not say that the land that Indiana occupies did not exist, but that there was no entity known as Indiana at the time.

Though your argument did prove my point that Indiana was never part of Canada, as it was part of the US (as the northwester territory) before Canada existed. and part of the providence of Quebec under the British and part of New France under the French before that before that.

Err... so you're going to argue that I can't say Indiana didn't exist because "in American English it is proper to refer to area of land by its modern place name." but you can make the same argument against another poster in regards to Canada? Hypocrite much?

anyways TOEFLしけんがんばれ
:rolleyes:

Yes, I'm a dumb Jap who doesn't quite catch your inestimable Engrish. :rolleyes:

Wrong answer. Try again, and this time please learn the meaning of expatriate.

ahhhh so your a charisma man?
For those not having experienced expatriate culture in Japan here:
http://www.charismaman.com/
Or just in case you missed yet another

Next time, try to be less condecsending and don't jump to stupid conclusions. You'll look less foolish if you don't try and talk down to people you assume are foreign and who turn out to be from your own country.

1st It is condescending not condecsending (normally I don't correct but reason #2 calls for it)
2nd I had already guessed you were an english teacher.
I was bringing in what should by now be an all too familiar tone for you.

You may have intended it as a joke, but I've never seen that program.

Not my problem you don't keep up with modern pop culture or a sense of humor.
Though even with out the episode, most readers could see the comment was ironical not serious.


Let's review what I was responding to...



My response was to your claims that Indiana was an exitant entity in 1774 and Indiana was part of the US prior to 1774. Nowhere did I claim to be making any statement regarding Canada.



Again with the condecsension.


1. I think you meant existent not exitant, though I am not 100% certain what you were trying to say here so can you please use spell check before posting.
2.it is condescension not condecsension.

I'm going to disagree with you strongly and specifically on that point. When I took my Texas history courses in school, it was quite clear that when, for example, they talked about Stephen F. Austin's Firts Hundred colony, it was Mexico.

You should have gotten a F. Under Mexico the area of land that is today Texas was part of a political body know as Estados de Coahuila y Tejas(my Spanish might be a little wrong please forgive me) or in english State of Coahuila and Texas. With the northern part aka Texas becoming the state of Texas as it exist today(after the republic period of course).

I think you meant Austin's first Hundred colony not "firts hundred colony". Though the first Colony was of 297 families and they are referred to as "the old 300". So I am a little confused where you are getting with the "firts hundred colony" from, perhaps you had a different word in mind?

Also if the book is referring to the colonial period of Texas as nothing but a Mexican colony, then why is it in a "Texas history book".


Errr...say what. Did you perchance mean "ascertainment"? Are you certain you are the native speaker?

a quip from someone who can not even correctly spell first, among other errors. Are you certain your not speaking a creole or perhaps a pidgin?


Secondly, I did not say that the land that Indiana occupies did not exist, but that there was no entity known as Indiana at the time.

Err... so you're going to argue that I can't say Indiana didn't exist because "in American English it is proper to refer to area of land by its modern place name." but you can make the same argument against another poster in regards to Canada? Hypocrite much?


:rolleyes:

let me restate my story the parentheses are to help you understand what most people . I also summarized
person1.
made the claim that one of his ancestors that resides in a town in (the land of present day) Indiana that was once part of (the political entity of) Canada and then became part of the US.
Person2 (me)
You(person1) claim seems incorrect because no part (the land of present day) Indiana was in the (political entity) of Canada because, (the land of present day) Indiana was part of(legal jurisdiction wise) the (goverment of the) United States of America. However the (the land of Indiana) was part of the (political entity) of New France, and later the(political) providence of Quebec.
Person 3 (you from out in left field)
Something about your(person 2) wrong Indiana did not exist as a political entity.

Frankly, I don't even understand why you came in the conversation. Are you trying to suggest because Indiana didn't exist as a political entity at the time it was some how part of Canada ? Or did you feel like randomly charging into a conversation babbling about Indiana was not a state???

Stop arguing.

Sweet tea.

/Thread.

come on nsg, if we don't decide this the south will cease to exist

Oh god, please let us fail to decide this.

Antarctica.

Stop arguing.

Sweet tea.

/Thread.

http://img30.picoodle.com/img/img30/4/4/29/f_1001523m_ec97e92.jpg

where is your god now?

http://img30.picoodle.com/img/img30/4/4/29/f_1001523m_ec97e92.jpg

where is your god now?

In the south.

I imagine its the Mason-Dixon line, the Ohio and Mississippi rivers. I might exclude some abberations, though, like Florida, the DC area, and maybe parts of Atlanta.

Personal opinion:

Florida: All of Florida NORTH of the I-4 / FL-50 Corridor, except for Pinellas County, and the Orlando Metropolitan area.

Georgia: All except for the 5 core counties of Atlanta.

Alabama, S. Carolina, N. Carolina, Miss., Tennessee, Louisiana, Arkansas: All

Kentucky: All, except for all places both East of Paducah, and within 40 minutes of the Ohio River.

Virginia: South of I-64 Corridor, plus entire Richmond Metropolitan area.

Missouri: On or south of US-60 / I-44. Branson has to be considered the south.

Indiana: While redneck and ignorance is somewhat common, they don't have sweet tea.

indiana? an ancestor of mine was born in Canada and died in Indiana, USA without ever leaving the town he was born in...no state that used to be part of Canada is southern...

Psh. Professor John Crandall Hudson, noted geographer, in lecture yesterday:

Indiana is a Southern state in the North.

Lest you think I'm just being difficult, the people who settled Indiana were the same people who settled the Upland South. Migrants to the Midwest were generally a distinct and separate group. Culturally, it has a lot of ties to states like Kentucky and Tennessee.

That's a little too serious business for me, though. Really I'm just poking fun at Indiana for not having the sense to behave like a proper Midwestern state.