NationStates Jolt Archive

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/oukoe_uk_congo_democratic_witchcraft

I think its almost time to stop all international aid to Africa and let all the superstitious idiots shrink each others penises and write the whole damn place off as unbelievably hopeless.

It's easily the most pish continent settled in any great numbers.

Oh, and what the hell else is it if not unbelievably hopeless? HIV/AIDS is killing thousands a day, as is malaria, and malnutrition, and particularly stupid wars all over the place, and water and trees are running out. Utter clusterfuck.

I seem to remember the belief that your penis is vanishing is common to one ethnic group in Africa much in the same way that anorexia is common in western society and talking to dead relatives in parts of India

the jump that its sorcery is due to lack of education and the voodoo cults that plague Africa

I agree. What's the point of trying to improve the quality of human life in places that are difficult? We could use the money to improve my quality of life by buying me a new TV, and it would be way easier than trying to fix a whole continent just because we feel a little guilty for raping and pillaging it for hundreds of years.

I concur with the OP, except I think what he says applies to the whole world.

sounds like people everywhere to me.

also,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr8DIg3oHFI

I agree. What's the point of trying to improve the quality of human life in places that are difficult? We could use the money to improve my quality of life by buying me a new TV, and it would be way easier than trying to fix a whole continent just because we feel a little guilty for raping and pillaging it for hundreds of years.

Do you flush money down the toilet? Me either.

I agree. What's the point of trying to improve the quality of human life in places that are difficult? We could use the money to improve my quality of life by buying me a new TV, and it would be way easier than trying to fix a whole continent just because we feel a little guilty for raping and pillaging it for hundreds of years.
Nononono.

Throwing money into Africa won't help anything, because its leaders are almost entirely just such utter pish. Lazy, corrupt and generally without any real incentive to help their people.

What'll sort Africa out is probably most of the population dying, which is a shame. Won't be long now, seeing as a lot of the population old enough to actually work and hence earn enough for their families to eat will be HIV-tabulous in about 15 years tops.

*sigh*

I agree. What's the point of trying to improve the quality of human life in places that are difficult? We could use the money to improve my quality of life by buying me a new TV, and it would be way easier than trying to fix a whole continent just because we feel a little guilty for raping and pillaging it for hundreds of years.

Who?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/oukoe_uk_congo_democratic_witchcraft

I think its almost time to stop all international aid to Africa and let all the superstitious idiots shrink each others penises and write the whole damn place off as unbelievably hopeless.

So humanitarian aid shouldn't go to people who need it? So people should be allowed to starve to death because of a lack of resources and government mismanagement? That is quite an unfortunate stance on such an issue.

Plus, not all Africans are "superstitious idiots".
I wonder how you would feel if you were one of the people who had to depend on international aid to survive.

Who?

WHOM!

Africa needs to be dunked into the Ocean for about 3 years for a good rinse and then it needs to be started over.

WHOM!

Are you sure?

Africa needs to be dunked into the Ocean for about 3 years for a good rinse and then it needs to be started over.

The whole world needs to be dunked. I believe that all races are screwed-up, and for you to say that some are not offends me.

Are you sure?

Yes.

Who?
Hullo! I'm the UK/France/Belgium and I totally pwnt Africa lolol.

They may have had two generations and billions of dollars in IMF loans, in addition to billions in quid-pro-nothing-of-any-value-at-all-other-than-white-guilt-relief, and thousands of our peacekeepers at our own expense when they get into civil wars, and have failed to really improve their countries, but shh, because that's all our fault regardless. Remember?

Yes.

That makes one of us.

Hullo! I'm the UK/France/Belgium and I totally pwnt Africa lolol.

They may have had two generations and billions of dollars in IMF loans, in addition to billions in quid-pro-nothing-of-any-value-at-all-other-than-white-guilt-relief, and thousands of our peacekeepers at our own expense when they get into civil wars, and have failed to really improve their countries, but shh, because that's all our fault regardless. Remember?

http://z.about.com/d/collectdolls/1/0/k/shhh.jpg

That makes one of us.

It is simple: He/she/who; him/her/whom. Understand?

It is simple: He/she/who; him/her/whom. Understand?

So where does the 'we' fall in all of this?

So where does the 'we' fall in all of this?
We/Us.

Who?

Sorry, I meant various developed nations that exploited it. Like, well, mine, for example.

We/Us.

Right-o.

He/she/who/we; him/her/whom/us.

Sorry, I meant various developed nations that exploited it. Like, well, mine, for example.
Ah.. yes, the actions of various developed nations really weighs on my conscience.
Right-o.

He/she/who/we; him/her/whom/us.

Alright.

Hullo! I'm the UK/France/Belgium and I totally pwnt Africa lolol.

They may have had two generations and billions of dollars in IMF loans, in addition to billions in quid-pro-nothing-of-any-value-at-all-other-than-white-guilt-relief, and thousands of our peacekeepers at our own expense when they get into civil wars, and have failed to really improve their countries, but shh, because that's all our fault regardless. Remember?

Did I say it was all anyone's fault? If that's what you got from my reply, it isn't what I meant. What I meant was, it's a little effed up to plunder a place for hundreds of years, try to patch it up for one or two generations, then get pissy when everything doesn't turn around and leave it for broke. I think nations that exploited Africa, such as my own, have a responsibility to help try and make it better.

But even besides that, I think people should want to make it better whether they had anything to do with the problem or not. I certainly can't make anyone want to, and I can't make anyone spend their money on it, but the callousness of the OP's post really struck a nerve in me. It's upsetting to me that, as evidenced by responses to the thread, many people would want to see an entire continent of people thrown away like so much trash.

I don't have any good answers, I'll admit that right now. But I also don't believe that people should stop working for something good just because it's hard.

so hysteria in one part of africa means that we should write off the entire continent?

it doesnt even mean that we should write off the congo.

so hysteria in one part of africa means that we should write off the entire continent?

it doesnt even mean that we should write off the congo.

I agree with you. History has shown that the sword is mightier than the pen.

I don't have any good answers, I'll admit that right now. But I also don't believe that people should stop working for something good just because it's hard.

The question you have to ask is at what point does aid become a fools errand? You cant push back the incoming tide with a plastic bucket and shovel. And spending money to buy a bigger bucket doesnt help either.

Ah.. yes, the actions of various developed nations really weighs on my conscience.

I don't know anything about your conscience. I was not trying to make any presumptions about you, your conscience or what the hell you care about. I'm sorry my inapt choice for a pronoun ruffled your feathers so much. If you don't care about Africa, it really isn't anything to me.

I don't know anything about your conscience. I was not trying to make any presumptions about you, your conscience or what the hell you care about. I'm sorry my inapt choice for a pronoun ruffled your feathers so much. If you don't care about Africa, it really isn't anything to me.

I think my inept choice of pronoun did far more ruffling. (is 'who' even a pronoun?) American educational system at work here.

Anyway, I think the main problem with the 'effort' to help Africa is the seemingly haphazard way in which it is done. It appears that countries giving aid are trying to fix the country in patches, as opposed to one unified 'assault'. The problem is knowing where to start and then making a plan and going through with it. 'Fixing' a country is no small matter, especially when the countries trying to do the fixing have problems of their own.

Did I say it was all anyone's fault? If that's what you got from my reply, it isn't what I meant. What I meant was, it's a little effed up to plunder a place for hundreds of years
The Scramble for Africa was not until quite late in the 19th century. We had a good century of casual pillaging, but not hundreds of years, no.
try to patch it up for one or two generations, then get pissy when everything doesn't turn around and leave it for broke.
No, we didn't leave it for broke, we gave most of Africa independence when they simply asked for it and had black majority rule, which isn't so much leaving it for broke as letting the continent fly from the nest, so to speak.
I think nations that exploited Africa, such as my own, have a responsibility to help try and make it better.
We did what they asked for, which was to give them independence. Which we did, and then just watched with dismay as things went from pretty bad in the 1960s-70s to 'oh fucking noes' in the last 30-odd years.
But even besides that, I think people should want to make it better whether they had anything to do with the problem or not. I certainly can't make anyone want to, and I can't make anyone spend their money on it, but the callousness of the OP's post really struck a nerve in me. It's upsetting to me that, as evidenced by responses to the thread, many people would want to see an entire continent of people thrown away like so much trash.
Er, yep. Sort of resent taxpayer's money being spent on a continent which wants independence in terms of "let the government steal everyone's money and stfu with yer complaints", but then comes back to us with puppy eyes asking for our help.

I think my inept choice of pronoun did far more ruffling. (is 'who' even a pronoun?) American educational system at work here.

You'd think anyone with a Lit degree could answer this, but... I will take refuge in the white text as well. :P

Anyway, I think the main problem with the 'effort' to help Africa is the seemingly haphazard way in which it is done. It appears that countries giving aid are trying to fix the country in patches, as opposed to one unified 'assault'. The problem is knowing where to start and then making a plan and going through with it. 'Fixing' a country is no small matter, especially when the countries trying to do the fixing have problems of their own.

Okay, I can agree with all of that. And the powers-that-may-or-may-not-be know that the U.S. needs a lot of fixing. I don't know what the solution is; I suspect there isn't one. My bf and I often have this debate when he complains about celebrities giving money and doing work for Africa while the murder rate in Oakland continues to rise and the graduation rate continues to fall.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/oukoe_uk_congo_democratic_witchcraft

I think its almost time to stop all international aid to Africa and let all the superstitious idiots shrink each others penises and write the whole damn place off as unbelievably hopeless.

So our operational principle for international aid is that we only give it to countries whose citizens never give in to dumb hysterias? Seriously, some people are silly and superstitious, but that's not really a sane rationale for or against aid to that country.

i work with people from all over africa, mostly nigerian though, and , im a firm believer that were all equal and that you know, theres no difference in intelligence brought on by colour of skinor race or any of that crap, but jesus some of them are as ignorant as hell, i had a huge argument with one because he kept insisting oxygen came from the sun and all things came from the sun, not through energy transfer and photosynthesis but like...directly...through space..to the earth.. when i tried explaining the process of plants making o2 he smugly said "then how is there air in the desert" . i mean it was incredible , he then start saying i had been tricked by western ideals and that i didnt want africa to be advanced , and that i was a european wanting africas milk and honey , was crazy man, and theres loads like him.. just saying africa has ALOT of issues to sort out before its anywhere near the level of the rest of the world.. i mean seriously, he claimed the only reason the european powers colonised africa was because we came in the night and surprised them...the whole continent ...he certainly livens up work

i work with people from all over africa, mostly nigerian though, and , im a firm believer that were all equal and that you know, theres no difference in intelligence brought on by colour of skinor race or any of that crap, but jesus some of them are as ignorant as hell, i had a huge argument with one because he kept insisting oxygen came from the sun and all things came from the sun, not through energy transfer and photosynthesis but like...directly...through space..to the earth.. when i tried explaining the process of plants making o2 he smugly said "then how is there air in the desert" . i mean it was incredible , he then start saying i had been tricked by western ideals and that i didnt want africa to be advanced , and that i was a european wanting africas milk and honey , was crazy man, and theres loads like him.. just saying africa has ALOT of issues to sort out before its anywhere near the level of the rest of the world.. i mean seriously, he claimed the only reason the european powers colonised africa was because we came in the night and surprised them...the whole continent ...he certainly livens up work

Humhhm...YEAH.

Seriously, some people are silly and superstitious, but that's not really a sane rationale for or against aid to that country.
Why not? Why should we help them if they insist in behaving like this?

I say put a total block on travel to/from africa until the Aids and HIV kills off enough of them to actually make a difference

They bred like ants now they cry theres not enough resources to support the current numbers, if a number of them die off, then they can cut back till they have numbers the world can manage
*loads AK47*:mp5:

I say put a total block on travel to/from africa until the Aids and HIV kills off enough of them to actually make a difference

They bred like ants now they cry theres not enough resources to support the current numbers, if a number of them die off, then they can cut back till they have numbers the world can manage
*loads AK47*:mp5:

Internet Tough Guy is TOUGH

*moar guns here*

Why not? Why should we help them if they insist in behaving like this?

Generalization much? Insist? Who's actually providing a reasonable level of education there? To what extent? How freely available is to the general population?

Group mentality much?

If the shoe fits...

If the shoe fits...

:rolleyes:

*moar guns here*
:mp5: :mp5: :mp5:
:sniper: :sniper: :sniper: :sniper:
:gundge: :gundge: :gundge:

There we go. Thank you, Jolt Mods, for allowing utterly retarded posts like this one.

Generalization much? Insist? Who's actually providing a reasonable level of education there? To what extent? How freely available is to the general population?
If I'm going to offer help to someone I want them to be someone I'd like to see succeed.

i work with people from all over africa, mostly nigerian though, and , im a firm believer that were all equal and that you know, theres no difference in intelligence brought on by colour of skinor race or any of that crap, but jesus some of them are as ignorant as hell, i had a huge argument with one because he kept insisting oxygen came from the sun and all things came from the sun, not through energy transfer and photosynthesis but like...directly...through space..to the earth.. when i tried explaining the process of plants making o2 he smugly said "then how is there air in the desert" . i mean it was incredible , he then start saying i had been tricked by western ideals and that i didnt want africa to be advanced , and that i was a european wanting africas milk and honey , was crazy man, and theres loads like him.. just saying africa has ALOT of issues to sort out before its anywhere near the level of the rest of the world.. i mean seriously, he claimed the only reason the european powers colonised africa was because we came in the night and surprised them...the whole continent ...he certainly livens up work

lol

i think this story belongs in the "dumbest thing you have ever heard" thread.

good thing no one said "BOO!" that night or the european conquest of africa would have been a bust.

The problem is that people are under the impression that these people have the same freedoms we do...

All the aid you send to those countries goes to their Thug Lord Leaders, who in turn hoard it away from the people and use it to control them, all the while filling them with Hate Propaganda...

I say we stop giving them shit, so we starve out their leaders, eventually the Thugs wont have a choice, but to either free the people or Starve...

I say we stop giving them shit, so we starve out their leaders, eventually the Thugs wont have a choice, but to either free the people or Starve...
The leaders of African nations will not starve, ever. Their people might, they won't.

The leaders of African nations will not starve, ever. Their people might, they won't.

Well maybe their people will one day get a clue and rise up...maybe join together rather than cling to divisive Tribal Stupidity...

But, personally i just dont care about Africa, I live in America, and all those people do is Hate on Us, whilest we send them Shitload after Shitload of Food, Money, etc...

Im sick of hearing about them...Id like to see how well the African leaders do without American Support...

Not well id wager...

Im sick of hearing about them...Id like to see how well the African leaders do without American Support...


Oh they do just fine, it turns into a green light to genocide by machette.

Oh they do just fine, it turns into a green light to genocide by machette.
I don't see how a lack of US aid will lead to the next Rwanda, that was due to ethnic tensions more than anything else.

I don't see how a lack of US aid will lead to the next Rwanda, that was due to ethnic tensions more than anything else.

Because then you cant threaten to withdraw aid to make renegade countries behave themselves.

The current World policy towards Africa is to send them boatloads of money so they become dependent on it and then use it as leverage to get them to behave themselves. Crazy way to run a policy towards an entire continent.

If I'm going to offer help to someone I want them to be someone I'd like to see succeed.

So, you don't offer help to begin with because you don't think they'll succeed because you didn't offer help to begin with...

I dont claim to have a solution to the place...

Id prefer to just let the place Rot...All of Western Europe, North America, most of South America and Asia have thrown off their chains...one day hopefully Africa will too...

But, personally i really couldnt care less...They hate us, and I Dont Care about them, i say we leave em be...

So, you don't offer help to begin with because you don't think they'll succeed...
No, because he doesn't want them to succeed.

No, because he doesn't want them to succeed.

Its not that I dont Want them to succeed its that i Dont Care if they do, and since they dont seem to be making ANY progress...I say we stop giving them shit

So, you don't offer help to begin with because you don't think they'll succeed because you didn't offer help to begin with...

I think we have established that Africa has been offered plenty of help. It has gotten us where exactly?

No, because he doesn't want them to succeed.

Or because he doesn't want them to think he wants them to succeed.

If I'm going to offer help to someone I want them to be someone I'd like to see succeed.

you would prefer that some people don't succeed?

Well maybe their people will one day get a clue and rise up...maybe join together rather than cling to divisive Tribal Stupidity...

You're from Mississippi, the same state where 40 years ago they were lynching people over "tribal differences". I sincerely doubt you would "rise up" against the "tribal stupidity" that was on display in Jena.

But, personally i just dont care about Africa, I live in America, and all those people do is Hate on Us, whilest we send them Shitload after Shitload of Food, Money, etc...

All we did, was help build this fucking country for free. Africa sent America it's blood, treasure and populace.

Im sick of hearing about them...Id like to see how well the African leaders do without American Support...

Not well id wager...

They did pretty well before the whites. Read up on Timbuktu, or Carthage, or Egypt.

All we did, was help build this fucking country for free. Africa sent America it's blood, treasure and populace.



You meant to say Africa SOLD America its blood, treasure and populace.

You're from Mississippi, the same state where 40 years ago they were lynching people over "tribal differences". I sincerely doubt you would "rise up" against the "tribal stupidity" that was on display in Jena.



All we did, was help build this fucking country for free. Africa sent America it's blood, treasure and populace.



They did pretty well before the whites. Read up on Timbuktu, or Carthage, or Egypt.

Yep i love how you just categorically Judge me over where im from...

But, we did that, we called it "The American Revolution" and later "the Civil War"...

And those Same Tribal Leaders Sold Us that Blood, Treasure and Populace, and the American South wasnt the only Customer either...

yeah, and Egypt is currently doing quite well, they arent actually the recipients of the "aid", more like Central and Southern Africa, with the exception of South Africa...

but, the problem being, that that Aid wont EVER get to the people who need it if the current leadership remains in power, and, i dont see that leadership changing anytime soon...

The question you have to ask is at what point does aid become a fools errand? You cant push back the incoming tide with a plastic bucket and shovel. And spending money to buy a bigger bucket doesnt help either.

Holland seems to have done to have done that just fine.

Holland seems to have done to have done that just fine.

If your inferring that Holland can solve Africas problems then by all means let them have at it.


*snicker*

If your inferring that Holland can solve Africas problems then by all means let them have at it.


*snicker*
They were talking about Holland building massive civil engineering projects to hold back the sea.

Maybe it's because people keep thinking Africa is doomed all the time that it does actually become doomed. you know the self fulfilling prophecy idea.
There must be plenty parts of Africa which are okay to live.
*checks wiki* link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Africa)
i stand corrected.

Although it has abundant natural resources, Africa remains the world's poorest and most underdeveloped continent, due largely to the effects of: tropical diseases, the slave trade, corrupt governments, failed central planning, the international trade regime and geopolitics; as well as widespread human rights violations, the negative effects of colonialism, despotism, illiteracy, superstition, tribal savagery and military conflict (ranging from war and civil war to guerrilla warfare to genocide).[37] According to the United Nations' Human Development Report in 2003, the bottom 25 ranked nations (151st to 175th) were all African nations.[38]

Widespread poverty, illiteracy, malnutrition and inadequate water supply and sanitation, as well as poor health, affect a large majority of the people who reside in the African continent, where 36.2% of the population is living on under $1 per day. Africa is by far the world's poorest inhabited continent, and on average, in 2003 it was poorer than it was in 1973
oh dear, things have got worse?
aha! there is a few countries which have got better.

Some areas, notably Botswana and South Africa, have experienced economic success. The latter has a wealth of natural resources, being the world's leading producer of both gold and diamonds, and having a well-established legal system. South Africa also has access to financial capital, numerous markets, skilled labor, and first world infrastructure in much of the country and has one of the major stock exchanges of the continent, the Johannesburg Stock Exchange.

I think its almost time to stop all international aid to Africa and let all the superstitious idiots shrink each others penises and write the whole damn place off as unbelievably hopeless.

But if we don't give them food, how will they expand their populations to unsustainable levels?

you would prefer that some people don't succeed?
Of course. So do you.

But if we don't give them food, how will they expand their populations to unsustainable levels?

We inform them that Intercourse is demanded by the Gods and will Stave off Disease and Starvation...

Anyway, I think the main problem with the 'effort' to help Africa is the seemingly haphazard way in which it is done. It appears that countries giving aid are trying to fix the country in patches, as opposed to one unified 'assault'. The problem is knowing where to start and then making a plan and going through with it. 'Fixing' a country is no small matter, especially when the countries trying to do the fixing have problems of their own.
What I meant was, it's a little effed up to plunder a place for hundreds of years, try to patch it up for one or two generations, then get pissy when everything doesn't turn around and leave it for broke. I think nations that exploited Africa, such as my own, have a responsibility to help try and make it better. -snip-

I will remind you two of a little concept called the white man's burden.
'We' haven't been trying to improve Africa for only a generation or two, but right from the beginning. Oh thats right, we are more civilized now and know better. Wait... hasn't that last bit been said just about every generation for the last millennia?

Forcing aid and change on an area is absurd - the best thing for Africa is to let it develop on its own, not 'have a plan' for it. Provide free access for African exports to our markets, stop propping up governments, stop imposing outside rules and bureaucracy, and just generally stop meddling. Outsiders who 'know whats best for you' make things worse, not better (not to mention waste a lot of resources doing so).

Why not? Why should we help them if they insist in behaving like this?

Um, because there are other, better reasons for providing aid, like, say, national interest?

We paid lots of money in Africa during the Cold War to prop up anti-communist dictators, and it helped keep resources headed our way rather than funneled into the Soviet Union. Now one can (as I would) make the claim that such aid was dangerously short-sighted and compromised the long-term well-being both of those African societies and America's long-term fiscal and security interests and aid should have been discontinued or altered on that basis, but discontinuing aid "Because I heard a few of their citizens are really DUMB!" is a level of justification only slightly beyond "Because they're poopyheads!" on the idiocy meter.

I agree. What's the point of trying to improve the quality of human life in places that are difficult? We could use the money to improve my quality of life by buying me a new TV, and it would be way easier than trying to fix a whole continent just because we feel a little guilty for raping and pillaging it for hundreds of years.

You raped a continent? Freaky.

Of course. So do you.

i would prefer that some actions/strategies/ideologies/etc. not succeed. i want every person to succeed as far as possible.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/oukoe_uk_congo_democratic_witchcraft

I think its almost time to stop all international aid to Africa and let all the superstitious idiots shrink each others penises and write the whole damn place off as unbelievably hopeless.

And this is why we don't let people like you into politics...

Wait...


Damn.

[My actual thoughts: The whole idea of "penis snatching" is ridiculous, but I'm not ignorant enough to write off an entire continent because of it. If we did that, the USA and its ridiculous white-sheet-wearing extremists would be written off too.]

i would prefer that some actions/strategies/ideologies/etc. not succeed. i want every person to succeed as far as possible.

Isn't that an inherent contradition? If some randomly selected person holds some abhorrent ideology, and seeks to advance it using immoral strategies implemented through evil actions, you can't support the person and not the person's goals.

I prefer that evil people not succeed.

Um, because there are other, better reasons for providing aid, like, say, national interest?
If aiding them is in our interests, then I would support doing so.

I'm not confident it is in our interests.

Isn't that an inherent contradition? If some randomly selected person holds some abhorrent ideology, and seeks to advance it using immoral strategies implemented through evil actions, you can't support the person and not the person's goals.

I prefer that evil people not succeed.

ah, we are using different meanings of succeed. i'm talking in the 'live a good life' sense. i don't want would-be thieves to be successful thieves. i want them to be successful people.

ah, we are using different meanings of succeed. i'm talking in the 'live a good life' sense. i don't want would-be thieves to be successful thieves. i want them to be successful people.
By what objective standard do you measure people's success?

Your position reminds me of the very worst book I have ever read in my life (it was a textbook in a University class of mine), The Seven habits of Highly Effective People, by Stephen Covey. I deemed the book worthless for its failure ever to define the term "effective", thus rendering the entire book meaningless.

What, praytell, is a "successful person" if not a simply person who succeeds?

What, praytell, is a "successful person" if not a simply person who succeeds?

we may be variable, but there are objective truths about what makes us, as a species, content. happy (in so far as their happiness is not predicated upon the misery of others, etc), healthy, has access to necessary resources and leisure time, able to engage in fulfilling activities, and the like.

we may be variable, but there are objective truths about what makes us, as a species, content. happy (in so far as their happiness is not predicated upon the misery of others, etc), healthy, has access to necessary resources and leisure time, able to engage in fulfilling activities, and the like.
"Successful" is a terribly imprecise way to express that.

So when you say you want people to be successful, you want them to be successful as being happy, where being happy does not involve depriving others of happiness. And where depriving others of happiness is the cause of someone's happiness, what then?

You apply the general term "success" here like it's clear and possibly even achievable, but I don't think either of those is the case.

And where depriving others of happiness is the cause of someone's happiness, what then?

they'll have to find other things that make them happy. and if there are no other things, well, too bad. i'd still like them to live a good life, but they apparently cannot. this is no flaw with my desire for everyone to be successful, but rather a flaw of the (i'm gonna say 'imaginary') minority that physically cannot live such a life in society.

Yep i love how you just categorically Judge me over where im from...

Possible confusion w/ him between you and OP, who IS categorically judging people over where there from.

But, we did that, we called it "The American Revolution" and later "the Civil War"...

And those Same Tribal Leaders Sold Us that Blood, Treasure and Populace, and the American South wasnt the only Customer either...

Of course not. But

yeah, and Egypt is currently doing quite well,

Have you been there? For Africa its good, but Cairo........shit.......

but, the problem being, that that Aid wont EVER get to the people who need it if the current leadership remains in power, and, i dont see that leadership changing anytime soon...

And so you propose to do this by....cutting off aid? FORCING the people to revolt? Revolt with what? You seem to be under the impression that guns are easily available to a people who live below substanence wage. Guns aren't free you know, 9 times out of 10. And 9 times out of 10, when you see a farmer with his tools attack a soldier with his guns, guess who wins?

And guess what? They've tried. Guess what it lead to? Darfur, who staged a mass popular revolt. where Sudan, unable to deal with the rebels, had to unleash the Janjaweed on the populace, whom they have no control over. Now the rebels, who have been more of a hinderance in the peace process than anything else, are fighting over a wasteland filled with charred corpses. Even you must admit that most parts of Africa are better than that.

No, the best possible situation is one where like there is right now, in Zimbabwe, where they conducted (somewhat) fair and accurate polling, just changed the results later. Now we know who SHOULD be in charge. It is just a matter of taking the obstacle - Mugabe and his advisors - out of the way, grab control of the junior subordinates and prepare the proper President for it before it happens. We can get a quick, semi-bloodless transition, and alls well.

It's sad that whatever aid we send gets grabbed up by the rich, the government elite, the religious nut leaders, or something else. It never goes to people who really need it.

And sometimes when the above are the same we end up with government mandidates saying that Aids is caused by the US. And that having sex with a virgin will cure it. :headbang:

We probably should cut off aid to Africa. Sending them stuff doesn't seem to be doing anything. So many Africans have reached the limit of poverty. They aren't going to get any poorer. It's time everyone learned to stop throwing money at problems (money makes horrible ammunition) and learn to actually do something useful, like actually trying to fix problems.

I agree. We might have been able to do what we claimed to do in Iraq effectively in an African country. Their the situation is much more of a one sided simple oppression.

they'll have to find other things that make them happy. and if there are no other things, well, too bad. i'd still like them to live a good life, but they apparently cannot. this is no flaw with my desire for everyone to be successful, but rather a flaw of the (i'm gonna say 'imaginary') minority that physically cannot live such a life in society.
You just denied the existence of evil.

since they dont seem to be making ANY progress...I say we stop giving them shit

at LEAST give them whetstones to keep the machetes sharp
and some pooper-scoopers to clean up the monkey-mincemeat

Your position reminds me of the very worst book I have ever read in my life (it was a textbook in a University class of mine), The Seven habits of Highly Effective People, by Stephen Covey.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that book was utter rubbish. We had to read it for our staff meetings.



As to the Africa problem, it doesn't seem like the issue is the aid itself; the issue is where the aid is going.

What if instead of giving money to the leaders, we give food and other necessities directly to the people. I'm sure this is done, but it needs to be done more evenly. Money should never be given to Africa. Farming equipment and educators should be. Food and clothing should be. But not money.

pscht.

what i'm about to say sounds REALLY wrong, ESPECIALLY as i'm from an island which is mid-saturation population-wise (we need to have a clear-out, seriously, but apparently the UK is one-way only :( )but its what i think so here goes...

leave 'em to it.

completely.

allow trade an stuff, like china are doing, but sod getting involved, its not our fight.

if they want education - sell them the resources, guns - sell them those, fresh water - train their engineers, but FFS! stop sending money, start teaching skills.

a mate of mine observed that loads of charity TV ads say:
" *insert african child's name here* has to walk *insert number of miles here* for water every day... and its not even safe to drink "

you've seen the ads...well, he said "why dont those people up sticks and move to the water?" tbh, he has a point. if you were gonna live somewhere, and had no water supplies, sanitation ect where would you live? A: most probably, on a river not too far from the coast, or even on it!

stop sending rice, start feeding their minds...

my 2p

After reading through this thread, there is only one thing I have to say.

It's amazing how easily fairly intelligent, educated individuals can get away with being complete and utter racist bigots.

After reading through this thread, there is only one thing I have to say.

It's amazing how easily fairly intelligent, educated individuals can get away with being complete and utter racist bigots.

word!

i keep wanting to make a rational post but it just doesnt seem worth it. too much crap being said.

word!

i keep wanting to make a rational post but it just doesnt seem worth it. too much crap being said.

Make your rational post. If it's not worth making one rational argument in the face of many crappy ones, then there is no reason for any of us to debate about anything.

Make your rational post. If it's not worth making one rational argument in the face of many crappy ones, then there is no reason for any of us to debate about anything.

ok but im going to have to pick one of the "africa sucks and should be abandoned" posts to respond to.

After reading through this thread, there is only one thing I have to say.

It's amazing how easily fairly intelligent, educated individuals can get away with being complete and utter racist bigots.
How are we racist? We're judging the behaviour, not the people.

As to the Africa problem, it doesn't seem like the issue is the aid itself; the issue is where the aid is going.

What if instead of giving money to the leaders, we give food and other necessities directly to the people. I'm sure this is done, but it needs to be done more evenly. Money should never be given to Africa. Farming equipment and educators should be. Food and clothing should be. But not money.

oh look, you already made a smart post for me to respond to!

europe and "the west" in general have trashed africa and stunted its development. to abandon them now because they are "backward" is to deny our own culpability in their problems.

but, as you say, there is no sense keeping with the old model of giving aid to africa in the form of cheap food, arms and carte blanche money for dictators to build palaces with. that just perpetuates their severe problems. we need to get smart and work with africa to help its people, not use aid as a form of welfare for our own companies (that profit on sales of us goods sent as aid)

How are we racist? We're judging the behaviour, not the people.

I submit to you if you are afraid of being labeled a racist, then you should look carefully at your own arguments and think about revising them.

You just denied the existence of evil.

no, i denied the necessity of evil to be successful, to lead a good life. which isn't actually a shocking position.

no, i denied the necessity of evil to be successful, to lead a good life. which isn't actually a shocking position.
But that requires that there exist no evil people for whom evil behaviour constitutes success.

You're placing far too many resrictions on success if it only counts when people behave in ways of which you approve.

I submit to you if you are afraid of being labeled a racist, then you should look carefully at your own arguments and think about revising them.
Because if I fear being labelled racist then I must somehow be racist, or fear that I myself am racist? I don't understand this at all.

"Racism" has seemingly been expanded beyond the prejudiced opinion that some races are more or less value based solely on their race to include any opinion which doesn't treat all racial and cultural backgrounds as equally valuable in all possible ways at all possible times. And that's crazy.

My opinions may be uncommon, or even unpopular, but that does not make me a racist.

Because if I fear being labelled racist then I must somehow be racist, or fear that I myself am racist? I don't understand this at all.

"Racism" has seemingly been expanded beyond the prejudiced opinion that some races are more or less value based solely on their race to include any opinion which doesn't treat all racial and cultural backgrounds as equally valuable in all possible ways at all possible times. And that's crazy.

My opinions may be uncommon, or even unpopular, but that does not make me a racist.

were you mentioned by name? it may well be that he wasnt thinking of YOU specifically when he said that there were racists in this thread. i didnt think he meant ME when i read the post.

his point is that when you assume that he DID mean you specifically maybe YOU have a reason to think so and should think about whether or not you have been racist in this thread.

or you could keep one phrase in mind:

if the shoe doesnt fit, dont wear it.

were you mentioned by name? it may well be that he wasnt thinking of YOU specifically when he said that there were racists in this thread. i didnt think he meant ME when i read the post.

his point is that when you assume that he DID mean you specifically maybe YOU have a reason to think so and should think about whether or not you have been racist in this thread.

or you could keep one phrase in mind:

if the shoe doesnt fit, dont wear it.
Or I'm trying to initiate discussion.

I've been accused of racism on NSG before (my long discussion with Cat-Tribe about race-based selection of customers in a competitive market springs to mind), so I'm used to defending my politically incorrect, though not racist, positions.

But that requires that there exist no evil people for whom evil behaviour constitutes success.

You're placing far too many resrictions on success if it only counts when people behave in ways of which you approve.

there are two senses of 'success' at work here. one is to accomplish that which you set out to do. the other is to lead a good life. one cannot accomplish the second by succeeding at being evil.

(there is also the third sense, which is just becoming wealthy and/or famous, full stop - but this is based off a theory of what the good life is which i disagree with for other reasons)

edit: if someone - bob dylan, say - wrote a song which contained the lyric "try to be a success", would you honestly be mystified as to the general thrust of what was meant by the phrase?

This forum is getting a lot more fun. Everyone's getting older and the bleeding heart bullshit is fading away in the face of a tidal way of weariness and fed-upedness.

europe and "the west" in general have trashed africa and stunted its development.
Really? Sub-Saharan Africa was full of chronic brutality before the Europeans ever had contact with it, and I don't see much evidence that there was much prospect of the region developing on its own.

there are two senses of 'success' at work here. one is to accomplish that which you set out to do. the other is to lead a good life. one cannot accomplish the second by succeeding at being evil.
I don't see how that second meaning is associated with the word "success" at all. I understand that you're saying that's what you mean by "success", but there's simply no way that's what "success" means.

You're misusing the word.
edit: if someone - bob dylan, say - wrote a song which contained the lyric "try to be a success", would you honestly be mystified as to the general thrust of what was meant by the phrase?
I'd probably be pretty sure what it meant, and I'd probably disagree with Dylan about it.

I don't see how that second meaning is associated with the word "success" at all.

well it is, and has been for years.

do you agree that the third is a very common usage of the term?

Well, on the point that this thread is Racist...

I disagree...its not talking about a specific race of people, just a regional group of people...

Egypt, South Africa, Britain, America, Canada, etc....all have significant Black populations and would generally be considered successful, and Civilized...

Yet, the Central African Congo doesnt seem to meet these standards...

That in itself should point to race not being a factor...

Ive always said its Economic constraints that are the largest factor...

With Less Money= Less Education= Easily Manipulated by Despots and Dictators...

That would apply to any place or people that meet those traits...

i think the whole planet is as "ass backwards" as the media, for reasons obviously of the agenda of its corporate masters, makes africa sound. with the possible exception of the e.u., japan and maybe new zealand. most of the english as a first lanuguage speaking world these days has gotten just as backwards as what used to be called the so called 'third'.

and examples do propigate, which is one reason america's example of this recent decade is such a disaster for all of humanity.

=^^=
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