NationStates Jolt Archive

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/FedCrimes/story?id=4701450

According to court documents, Ben-Ami Kadish allegedly spied for Israel from 1979-1985 and provided an official from the Israeli consulate in New York with U.S. national defense information, including restricted nuclear weapons data, classified jet fighter weapons system data and key information on the Patriot missile system.

So, Israel is spying on the US. Awesome. Why are we their allies again? They dont really do anything for us anyway.

Wonder if they'll use the Holocaust as their excuse for this too...

Don't worry. We spy on them too.

Everybody spies on everybody. It's SOP.

Okay, I got three statements.
*ahem*
1) In Soviet Russia, Isreal spies on you!
2) I'm going to go with my usual response to anything like this. NUKE ZEM ALL! BWUAHAHA!
3) Everyone spies on each other. Especially on USA, with all their nukes and man power and those ka-RAZY Presidents.

There is no need to spy. Israel is an American state.

Everybody spies on everybody. It's SOP.

I know, but the way I figure it is, we already give them so much money and guns, I mean we are the only reason theyre still a country. Its kinda a slap in the face.

I know, but the way I figure it is, we already give them so much money and guns, I mean we are the only reason theyre still a country. Its kinda a slap in the face.

You dont get it.
EVERYBODY spies on EVERYBODY.
During WWII, the US spied on the UK, and vice-versa. Every state in the Middle East spies on the every other state in the Middle East. India spies on Russia. Pakistan spies on the US.
SENTRIES GETTING SAPPED EVERYWHERE!

I know, but the way I figure it is, we already give them so much money and guns, I mean we are the only reason theyre still a country. Its kinda a slap in the face.

Not really. In a lot of ways it's a compliment - that they think we need to be watched. After all, if they spy on us, anything coming down on them isn't going to be a surprise.

Consider: If the US had spied on New Zealand, they might have known that NZ was going to declare itself a sanity free zone - oops, sorry, a nuclear free zone - rather than having to suddenly divert a battlefleet to Sydney in the 1980s.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/FedCrimes/story?id=4701450



So, Israel is spying on the US. Awesome. Why are we their allies again? They dont really do anything for us anyway.

Wonder if they'll use the Holocaust as their excuse for this too...

You can bet we spy on the Brits too. You always spy on others, keeps 'em honest.

So, Israel is spying on the US. Awesome. Why are we their allies again? They dont really do anything for us anyway.

They do something important - act as an alternative, easier target for islamic states and terrorists to attack.

You can bet we spy on the Brits too. You always spy on others, keeps 'em honest.

Spying seems insignificant, since there are US military bases on British soil.

I know, but the way I figure it is, we already give them so much money and guns, I mean we are the only reason theyre still a country. Its kinda a slap in the face.
Only if you get caught.

Meh, old news really.

Spying seems insignificant, since there are US military bases on British soil.

It's still done though, and the British spy on us, the Germans spy on us, etc.
As has already been stated, everybody spies on everybody.

It's still done though, and the British spy on us, the Germans spy on us, etc.
As has already been stated, everybody spies on everybody.Yeah, even the Israelis spy on us, and we send them weapons!

Yeah, even the Israelis spy on us, and we send them weapons!

And we spy on them even though we send them weapons.

Wonder if they'll use the Holocaust as their excuse for this too...

This crap is only circulated by neo-Nazis, they never use this for an excuse for anything.

There is no need to spy. Israel is an American state.

:eek:
I thought the USA was under the control of Israel

:eek:
I thought the USA was under the control of IsraelWell, you learn something new every day...

This crap is only circulated by neo-Nazis, they never use this for an excuse for anything.

Generally not directly, but it's the consistent subtext from its foundation in 1948 onward. And justifiably so.

I don't know who said it, but I heard that the phrase during the Cold War was "Trust, but verify." That sums it up, I think.

This crap is only circulated by neo-Nazis, they never use this for an excuse for anything.

You don't get out much ... Or pay attention to the news much? Or even hear much about the jews...

You don't get out much ... Or pay attention to the news much? Or even hear much about the jews...
Nah. Stormfront has a habit of banning people that don't hear much about the Jews. It's a vicious circle.

:eek:
I thought the USA was under the control of Israel

That's only because, as has been shown before you are completely ignorant when it comes to the topic of the U.S.

*gasp* Well I never! How dare they spy on us! Nobody spies on their allies! </sarcasm>

Generally not directly, but it's the consistent subtext from its foundation in 1948 onward. And justifiably so.

That and only that, not for anything else, and it wasn't just that, also because they were suffering abuse in eastern Europe after the holocaust as well.

I honestly couldn't care less.

The bloodbath the United States has created in Iraq has probably killed more people than Israel has in the entire duration of its existence. If it's a question of national loyalty, well... don't try me.

You don't get out much ... Or pay attention to the news much? Or even hear much about the jews...

Please. My mothers background is German Jewish!

You don't get out much ... Or pay attention to the news much? Or even hear much about the jews...

Gee you don't have any ill will towards the Jews.

I honestly couldn't care less.

The bloodbath the United States has created in Iraq has probably killed more people than Israel has in the entire duration of its existence. If it's a question of national loyalty, well... don't try me.

depends....

are we counting the numbers of dead by war/other religion/broken laws from the Torah(sp?)?

That and only that, not for anything else,

Such a division can't be made. Israel's legitimacy as a nation is at the heart of all the rest--if not always objectively, certainly subjectively on the part of Israelis.

Those who seek Israel's destruction, even as such seeking has become merely symbolic, are associated with Nazism and the Holocaust... and the international community's disapproval of Israel's actions is regularly depicted, if not always in the explicit light of the Holocaust, as a part of the history of anti-Semitism.

and it wasn't just that, also because they were suffering abuse in eastern Europe after the holocaust as well.

Yes, Zionism was a response to a historic pattern of anti-Semitism that extended substantially beyond the Holocaust (both before and after), but the central element in making Zionism mainstream, both among Jews and the world community, was the Holocaust.

are we counting the numbers of dead by war/other religion/broken laws from the Torah(sp?)?

What are you talking about?

I'm just keeping it simple and considering the dead from Israel's various wars.

Such a division can't be made. Israel's legitimacy as a nation is at the heart of all the rest--if not always objectively, certainly subjectively on the part of Israelis.

Those who seek Israel's destruction, even as such seeking has become merely symbolic, are associated with Nazism and the Holocaust... and the international community's disapproval of Israel's actions is regularly depicted, if not always in the explicit light of the Holocaust, as a part of the history of anti-Semitism.


Look, the point is, whenever Israel do some sort of sketchy action, they never try to absolve themselves from criticism by claiming that because Jews suffered terribly in the holocaust you should cut them some slack, unlike what the anti-Semites like to circulate.


Yes, Zionism was a response to a historic pattern of anti-Semitism that extended substantially beyond the Holocaust (both before and after), but the central element in making Zionism mainstream, both among Jews and the world community, was the Holocaust.

Anti-Semitism was the central element, I would call the holocaust the spark or simply the last straw.

and the international community's disapproval of Israel's actions is regularly depicted, if not always in the explicit light of the Holocaust, as a part of the history of anti-Semitism.
Back this up with quotes or something? Again, I hear this tired old criticism that Israel hides behind the Holocaust yet I never see anything to substantiate the claim.
Look, the point is, whenever Israel do some sort of sketchy action, they never try to absolve themselves from criticism by claiming that because Jews suffered terribly in the holocaust you should cut them some slack, unlike what the anti-Semites like to circulate.

This is my impression. Aside from nutters no one takes seriously, I don't see the Holocaust ever being used as a justification for anything other than the establishment of Israel. The current issues with Israel often revolve around current Israeli policy, not so much the legitimacy of the state's existence, regardless of a vocal minority's desire to shift the controversy to the latter.

Back this up with quotes or something? Again, I hear this tired old criticism that Israel hides behind the Holocaust yet I never see anything to substantiate the claim.

"The academic boycott resonates with earlier boycotts of Jews, whether those of medieval Europe or the Third Reich. The history of anti-Semitism is in part the history of boycotts of Jews. Each boycott derives from a principle of exclusion: Jews and/or the Jewish State are to be excluded from public life, from the community of nations, because they are dangerous and malign. We see an essential continuity here, but even if we are wrong about this, the boycott has indeed been an essential tool of anti-Semites for at least a thousand years. And who but the crassest of individuals, those least sensitive to the burden of anti Semitism's history on Jews, would wish to impose precisely that sanction on the Jewish State today?

Second, it is predicated on the defamation of Jews. The Jewish State, in pursuance of its racist ideology, is perceived as pure aggressor, and the Palestinians as pure victims. The boycotters would deny to Jews the rights that they uphold for other peoples. They adhere to the principle of national self-determination, except in the Jews' case. They affirm international law, except in Israel's case. They are outraged by the Jewish nature of the State of Israel, but are untroubled (say) by the Islamic nature of Iran or of Saudi Arabia. They regard Zionism as uniquely pernicious, rather than as merely another nationalism. They are indifferent to Jewish suffering, while being sensitive to the suffering of non-Jews. They overstate, on every occasion, and beyond reason, any case that could be made against Israel's actions, and wildly overstate the significance of the Israel/Palestine conflict -indeed, they put Jews at the centre of world affairs.

Longstanding anti-Semites now embrace "anti-Zionism" as a cover for their Jew-hatred. This is because, in relation to Israel, the anti-Semite finds a protected voice. The desire to destroy Jews has been reconfigured as the desire to destroy or dismantle the Jewish State. Boycotters may have Jewish friends, they may be Jews themselves -but in supporting a boycott they have put themselves in anti-Semitism's camp."

This boycott is not just wrong, it's anti-Semitic (http://www.alandershowitz.com/publications/docs/boycott_times.htm)

For one example among many.

Look, the point is, whenever Israel do some sort of sketchy action, they never try to absolve themselves from criticism by claiming that because Jews suffered terribly in the holocaust you should cut them some slack

Of course they don't. That's a ridiculous argument.

But the Holocaust can play a more rational role in defenses of Israeli policy. It can remind people of the intensity and reality of anti-Semitism, and the dangers posed by ignoring its dangers... which is relevant both broadly and narrowly to the Israeli-Arab conflicts.

They dont really do anything for us anyway.
Pfft!

Don't you consider being a beacon of freedom and equality in the Middle East for other countries in the region to compare themselves to and then shoot themselves in dismay good enough?

Flipping liberals, etc. etc.

Wonder if they'll use the Holocaust as their excuse for this too...

How incredibly offensive...

*ahem*
1) In Soviet Russia, Isreal spies on you!
No no no: In Soviet Russia, you spy on Israel!

Those who seek Israel's destruction, even as such seeking has become merely symbolic, are associated with Nazism and the Holocaust...
For good reason. Hamas is proud to call itself the institutional successor of the Ikhwan, which in the 1930's was proud to call itself to Arab branch of the National Socialist movement; the official statement of its policy aims is still to kill Jews "until that day when the remnants of the Jews hide behind trees and cry 'O trees! Protect us!' but the trees will cry out 'Ho, Muslims! Look, here is a Jew! Come and slay him!' except for the Zamzum tree, which is a Jewish tree". This propaganda, recycled from the days when Naziism looked poised to take over the world, may seem clownish now that all the rest of the Axis stopped fighting so long ago, but apparently it is what their constituents want to hear. Palestinian leaders did their best to further the Holocaust, broadcasting appeals throughout the war to all Muslims to join in the sacred cause of exterminating the Jews, and helping to train Muslim SS units in countries like Bosnia and Algeria. It is not "Godwinning" (as Nodinia accused me when I pointed this out before) to call them Nazis; they aren't Nazis in the rhetorical sense of "people I really don't like", they aren't even imitative "neo-Nazis", they are the last survivors of the "paleo-Nazis".

For good reason.

Did I say otherwise? The historic ties of at least certain Arab nationalist groupings to Nazism is undeniable.

Of course, it's worth noting that Israel's existence as a nation is not under serious threat, and has not been for decades.

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/FedCrimes/story?id=4701450



So, Israel is spying on the US. Awesome. Why are we their allies again? They dont really do anything for us anyway.

Wonder if they'll use the Holocaust as their excuse for this too...
Here's a fun fact: Everyone spies on everyone. Even the closest of allies have espionage efforts aimed at each other.

I know, but the way I figure it is, we already give them so much money and guns, I mean we are the only reason theyre still a country. Its kinda a slap in the face.
The only reason we give them guns and money and allow them to remain a country is because Israel will nuke the hell out of the middle east if they get conquered.

All that oil gone...

The only reason we give them guns and money and allow them to remain a country is because Israel will nuke the hell out of the middle east if they get conquered.

All that oil gone...

:confused:

Of course, it's worth noting that Israel's existence as a nation is not under serious threat, and has not been for decades.
Of course, they would like to keep it that way. Israelis may be crazy, but they're not stupid.

Of course, they would like to keep it that way.

Yes, and we'd all like the Earth not to implode tomorrow.

But most of us don't worry about it.

Yes, and we'd all like the Earth not to implode tomorrow.

But most of us don't worry about it.
There aren't millions of people dedicated to making the Earth implode, nor "fellow travellers" trying to give them the means to do so.

There aren't millions of people dedicated to making the Earth implode,

Would we care if there were? They wouldn't have the capacity.

nor "fellow travellers" trying to give them the means to do so.

There are no such means. Israel has nuclear weaponry and the strongest conventional armed forces in the region, and is allied with the greatest military power on the planet.

Would we care if there were? They wouldn't have the capacity.
But the capacity to launch larger, more accurate, and much more numerous rockets at all the Israelis is what people want to give the Palestinians.
There are no such means. Israel has nuclear weaponry and the strongest conventional armed forces in the region, and is allied with the greatest military power on the planet.
And people want to pull the plug on the American alliance and change all that.

But the capacity to launch larger, more accurate, and much more numerous rockets at all the Israelis is what people want to give the Palestinians.

The firepower inequity is so drastic there that I find this complaint absurd.

And people want to pull the plug on the American alliance and change all that.

First, it won't happen anytime soon, and second, it wouldn't make a difference--Israel still would have overwhelming military, economic, and technological superiority, and it would still have nuclear weaponry.

Not to mention the fact that its relations with Egypt and Jordan are fairly cordial. Strange what peace can bring. (Most other countries, after all, rely on peaceful relations, not overwhelming military security, to protect themselves.)

and it would still have nuclear weaponry.

Assuming of course that they do have nuclear weaponry...
Do you have proof?

My understanding is that they have refused to say one way or another.

The firepower inequity is so drastic...
And that's what people want to change, is my point. Ain't going to happen, true-- because there are lots of people who would never want that to happen. It's the people who do fantasize about cutting off Israel economically and every other way and building up the Palestinians that I find absurd.

Assuming of course that they do have nuclear weaponry...

They do.

My understanding is that they have refused to say one way or another.

True, but everyone knows they have them. It's not in dispute.

They do.



True, but everyone knows they have them. It's not in dispute.

Ah, its one those "everyone knows" things...

In other words, you have absolutely no idea, no proof, no evidence, nothing.
:rolleyes:

I am not wearing a wire.

*plants bug and backs away quickly*

Ah, its one those "everyone knows" things...

In other words, you have absolutely no idea, no proof, no evidence, nothing.
:rolleyes:

Oh get real. It IS, in fact, one of those "everybody knows" things.

In other words, you have absolutely no idea, no proof, no evidence, nothing.
:rolleyes:

Oh, give me a fucking break.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/

Took me a whole minute of searching. I'm sure you couldn't have found it yourself. :rolleyes:

:confused:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

Dyakovo you are only fooling yourself if you think Israel couldn't make nukes.

Trust me, Israel has nukes. I've seen the "textile factory" in Dimona.

Oh get real. It IS, in fact, one of those "everybody knows" things.
Fail.
Oh, give me a fucking break.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/
Took me a whole minute of searching. I'm sure you couldn't have found it yourself. :rolleyes:
And I've read most of the source material from your link, and nowhere is there anything more than circumstantial evidence.
Trust me, Israel has nukes. I've seen the "textile factory" in Dimona.
Oh, I believe that Israel has nukes, I was merely commenting against the certainty of Soheran, he does not know that Israel has nukes, he believes that they do. There is a difference. Considering the fact that no-one has seen/is admitting to having seen Israel actually test a nuclear device, the only ones who actually know for sure are the ones involved in it.
The one instance that the U.S. intelligence community thinks was an Israeli nuclear weapons test, they aren't even certain was, indeed a nuclear weapons test, or for that matter certain that it was done by the Israelis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option
Dyakovo you are only fooling yourself if you think Israel couldn't make nukes.
I never said that they couldn't.

Yeah, I really don't think that this is that big a deal, considering that the patriot is basically a useless missile system, and we probably were sharing nuclear secrets with them anyway.

It is the stated hope of the US to promote stable democratic states in the Middle East. Israel fits the bill, and is one of the only truly anti-terrorist states that we can be sure of in the region.

Don't even begin to think that we get nothing from them. Could they be more cooperative with the US? Of course, but so could all our allies. While it may seem that we are the ones giving them all the weapons, they are also producing their own technologies, which they share with us (specifically optics) in return.

Oh, I believe that Israel has nukes

Backpedaling, are you?

I'm tired of this. Go annoy someone else.

Backpedaling, are you?

I'm tired of this. Go annoy someone else.

No, I am not backpedaling, try reading my entire post that you quoted only part of...

I'll even sum it up for you:

There is a big difference between believing something to be the case based on circumstantial evidence and being certain of it.

My problem with your statement was that you know that Israel has nukes, that it is something everyone knows. You do not know, you believe.

No, I am not backpedaling

Yes, you are. And I am wasting my time. But no one ever said I wasn't prone to foolishness.

My problem with your statement was that you know that Israel has nukes

No, it wasn't.

"Assuming of course that they do have nuclear weaponry..."

A perfectly reasonable assumption, if you believe they do. But you saw fit to challenge it, as if it were mere speculation... rather than an accepted fact with extensive evidence behind it.

Another day, perhaps, we can discuss the standards for knowledge, strictly speaking. But this is neither the time nor place. Not when we are concerned with a matter where everyone (apparently including you) is willing to accept the evidence and the consensus of the experts.

:rolleyes:

Yes, you are. And I am wasting my time. But no one ever said I wasn't prone to foolishness.



No, it wasn't.

"Assuming of course that they do have nuclear weaponry..."

A perfectly reasonable assumption, if you believe they do. But you saw fit to challenge it, as if it were mere speculation... rather than an accepted fact with extensive evidence behind it.

Another day, perhaps, we can discuss the standards for knowledge, strictly speaking. But this is neither the time nor place. Not when we are concerned with a matter where everyone (apparently including you) is willing to accept the evidence and the consensus of the experts.

:rolleyes:

So now you even think you know better than I do what my own position is?
You really do need to pull your head out of your ass.
I have told you twice now in simple direct language what my position is, and what my problem with your statement was, if you are incapable of comprehending at this point, the failing is certainly not mine.

This crap is only circulated by neo-Nazis, they never use this for an excuse for anything.Except for the very existence of their filthy "nation"...

It's the people who do fantasize about cutting off Israel economically and every other way and building up the Palestinians that I find absurd.

Almost as absurd as backing a state unilaterally...I mean thats the kind of thing that went out in the 40's, I would have thought....

I don't know who said it, but I heard that the phrase during the Cold War was "Trust, but verify." That sums it up, I think.

It was Ronald Reagan that said that, great man that he was.

...Most other countries, after all, rely on peaceful relations, not overwhelming military security, to protect themselves.

It's funny how much easier it is to get the first when you have the second, though. Si vis pacem, para bellum and all that, you know. It's also odd how rarely a lasting or stable version of the first has been achieved by someone who did not also possess the second.

Everybody spies on everybody. It's SOP.

Quite.

There is no need to spy. Israel is an American state.

all the more reason to spy an ally than an enemy, just to make sure they are allies.just part and parcel of politics

"Assuming of course that they do have nuclear weaponry..."

A perfectly reasonable assumption, if you believe they do.
We believe so because, of course, we have spies in Israel.

Except for the very existence of their filthy "nation"...

Every performer knows that as good as the classics may be, y'always need some new material somewhere down the road.

I spy, you spy, he/she/it spies, WE ALL SPY!!!!!!

http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/FedCrimes/story?id=4701450



So, Israel is spying on the US. Awesome. Why are we their allies again? They dont really do anything for us anyway.

Wonder if they'll use the Holocaust as their excuse for this too...

You're suprised? They've been doing it forever. The ones who are really bad though are the French.

Except for the very existence of their filthy "nation"...


O go away....Back under the bridge.