NationStates Jolt Archive

"In shocking testimonies that reveal abductions, beatings and torture, Israeli soldiers confess the horror they have visited on Hebron."

"The birds are singing as he describes in detail some of what he did and saw others do as an enlisted soldier in Hebron. And they are certainly criminal: the incidents in which Palestinian vehicles are stopped for no good reason, the windows smashed and the occupants beaten up for talking back – for saying, for example, they are on the way to hospital; the theft of tobacco from a Palestinian shopkeeper who is then beaten "to a pulp" when he complains; the throwing of stun grenades through the windows of mosques as people prayed. And worse."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/our-reign-of-terror-by-the-israeli-army-811769.html

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/index_e.asp

..not to mention turning a blind eye to the violence of the settlers....

Some pro-Israel advocates would say that this has to be an isolated case, or even an exaggeration.

But I think that there might be something to this. I think a full-scale investigation, probably run by the Ministry of Justice, is in order. And any soldiers or settlers found guilty of these crimes should recieve LONG jail sentences.

You are always going to have incidents like that when a military force is occupying a terrirory. Especially in places were a lot of ideological hatred has built up. So yes, I do very much believe it is happening. The issue is that it needs to be recognised and investigated and the people involved do need to be punished or else it will become accepted and be seen as acceptable behaviour by those involved. Ignoring or explaining it away is the worst thing you can do.

It's a war. Get over it.

these are isolated incidents no need to prosecute or investigate, except for the guy making the testimony he should be treated like anyone else who confessed to a crime.

*Yawwwwn*

Nodinia is trying to show us some anti-Israeli bullshit to make us shed a tear for the Palestinians. Let me go get my visine to make my eyes watery....:rolleyes:

*Yaaaawn*

"In shocking testimonies that reveal abductions, beatings and torture, Israeli soldiers confess the horror they have visited on Hebron."

"The birds are singing as he describes in detail some of what he did and saw others do as an enlisted soldier in Hebron. And they are certainly criminal: the incidents in which Palestinian vehicles are stopped for no good reason, the windows smashed and the occupants beaten up for talking back – for saying, for example, they are on the way to hospital; the theft of tobacco from a Palestinian shopkeeper who is then beaten "to a pulp" when he complains; the throwing of stun grenades through the windows of mosques as people prayed. And worse."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/our-reign-of-terror-by-the-israeli-army-811769.html

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/index_e.asp

..not to mention turning a blind eye to the violence of the settlers....

Or those Palestinians who are equally as violent? But surely, because the Israelis are mean, that's acceptable no?

*Yawwwwn*

Nodinia is trying to show us some anti-Israeli bullshit to make us shed a tear for the Palestinians. Let me go get my visine to make my eyes watery....:rolleyes:

*Yaaaawn*
's good to know you openly admit to being a racist.

I'm already so appalled by some of the responses to this thread, I don't even know where to begin...

Yes, both the Palestinians and the Israelies are doing this, but the Palestinians respect them enough to not throw grenades into a synagogue. In My Opinion, Israel shoudn't be there in the first place, anyway.

It's a war. Get over it.

And if this war was in your hometown? You are lucky because you most-probably live in a place where you have never lived in a war zone. It's like hell.

Or those Palestinians who are equally as violent? But surely, because the Israelis are mean, that's acceptable no?
No they obviously don't count because 'Palestinians are being opressed and only want to live peacefully with Israel"...but "Israelis are racist nazi commie Jews who only want to eliminate Palestinians and cannot wake up and consider a day complete without causing Palestinian babies to suffer".....

Puh-leaze.....:rolleyes:

Yes, both the Palestinians and the Israelies are doing this, but the Palestinians respect them enough to not throw grenades into a synagogue.
LOL..Come on guys...are you trying to make my life easy? Ok, ok ...I'm sorry the Palestinians respect the Israelis enough not to throw grenades into a synagogue (in your words) but not enough to not throw their own bomb riddled bodies into a public market so as to kill civilians....

Well, that's obviously the kind of respect that deserves to be noted!

And if this war was in your hometown? You are lucky because you most-probably live in a place where you have never lived in a war zone. It's like hell.

true, war zones do suck, there always no nachos *nods*
(this is not a joke there are never any nachos in a warzone, and i was actually in one)

Yes, both the Palestinians and the Israelies are doing this, but the Palestinians respect them enough to not throw grenades into a synagogue. In My Opinion, Israel shoudn't be there in the first place, anyway.



And if this war was in your hometown? You are lucky because you most-probably live in a place where you have never lived in a war zone. It's like hell.


Ah...so presumably rocket attacks upon housing blocks, infant schools and buses of civilians with no crimes to boast of don't count then? How very enlightening.

In any case, a war is conflict; history proves that any combatent army asked to comepete in a conflict with only limited means, in a limited war, tends to enjoy rather less success than they would if allowed to prosecute war fully.

No they obviously don't count because 'Palestinians are being opressed and only want to live peacefully with Israel"...but "Israelis are racist nazi commie Jews who only want to eliminate Palestinians and cannot wake up and consider a day complete without causing Palestinian babies to suffer".....


please give me a link to the people who said that. i need a good laugh

true, war zones do suck, there always no nachos *nods*
(this is not a joke there are never any nachos in a warzone, and i was actually in one)

I imagine the nacho parties after peace was declared were quite something, eh?

Unfortunately, other than the first post, this thread is completely filled with spam and illogical discussion (for those few who discussed anyway). Israel is currently occupying Palestine. Palestinian refugees are given back small sections of their country, an attempt to appease them. Palestinian's have a right, undebatable, to fight for their occupied land. However, the Palestinians receive little SUBSTANTIAL international support and the few groups who do fight, i am making a point to separate groups from people, have rudimentary weapons and techniques, such as missiles that land in bushes. Israeli aggression, as well as the governments unwillingness to judge the actions of their troops, and more than willingness to allow their armies brutality against CIVILIANS, is not an acceptable warlike action. We have the UN for a reason, we have global and international agreements for a reason, and that reason is to PROTECT civilians, then tell me, i beg you, tell me why Israel is excused from this? By all means shoot the guy who launched a missile into his own occupied land, but do not dare kill a civilian because you can not find the guy who launched a missile. Mordechia Gur has openly admitted to the Israeli press (after the 1982 invasion of Lebanon which left Lebanese territory occupied for some 20 years) that they targeted civilians because "they deserved it" (as analyzed by Israeli military analyst Zi'ir Schif- SP) This same pattern occurs here, and it is a governments responsibility to over see the operations of its military, and if the government fails, it is OUR responsibility to see that the army is kept in check. They gave the Palestinians back some of their lands, only to hold them in it as victims and to treat them miserably. What did that shop keeper ever do? Where is the EVIDENCE!??! WHERE?! No where. Blockades in Gaza (this is a current issue) have left most of Gaza flooded by 20 CM of sewage which is seeping into people's houses, as well as electrical cuts which have left child incubators on the verge of powering off, AKA your new born will die. Hospitals can barely operate, people live in their own excrement, they are mauled and attacked by Israeli troops, they have no supplies because of blockades, and here we have people patting Israel on the back.

No they (.....)es:

Well if that was the kind of view being expressed, I doubt very much we'd be using the testimony of some members of the IDF to do so, a majority of them being be those "racist nazi commie Jews", as far as I'm aware....Of course having a rather dubious record on matters related to 'race' and Arabs in particular, you would take that line. However you may rest assured that most of us don't view it in those terms.

Would you like to tell us again how seeing at first hand the '3bbil arabs' on that school jaunt of yours influenced your views? Certainly we could all do with your learned insight on the matter.......



It's a war. Get over it:

Its an illegal occupation, actually....

What, exactly, do you expect soldier's responses to be, when confronted with a protracted insurgency, in which many of their own people are being indiscriminately killed in deliberate terrorist acts? They perceive there as being a brutal war, and that they are the in the middle of hostile territory.

This is to have been expected, and this is the end result of Arafat's damned Intifada.

Unfortunately, other than the first post, this thread is completely filled with spam and illogical discussion (for those few who discussed anyway). Israel is currently occupying Palestine. Palestinian refugees are given back small sections of their country, an attempt to appease them. Palestinian's have a right, undebatable, to fight for their occupied land. However, the Palestinians receive little SUBSTANTIAL international support and the few groups who do fight, i am making a point to separate groups from people, have rudimentary weapons and techniques, such as missiles that land in bushes. Israeli aggression, as well as the governments unwillingness to judge the actions of their troops, and more than willingness to allow their armies brutality against CIVILIANS, is not an acceptable warlike action. We have the UN for a reason, we have global and international agreements for a reason, and that reason is to PROTECT civilians, then tell me, i beg you, tell me why Israel is excused from this? By all means shoot the guy who launched a missile into his own occupied land, but do not dare kill a civilian because you can not find the guy who launched a missile. Mordechia Gur has openly admitted to the Israeli press (after the 1982 invasion of Lebanon which left Lebanese territory occupied for some 20 years) that they targeted civilians because "they deserved it" (as analyzed by Israeli military analyst Zi'ir Schif- SP) This same pattern occurs here, and it is a governments responsibility to over see the operations of its military, and if the government fails, it is OUR responsibility to see that the army is kept in check. They gave the Palestinians back some of their lands, only to hold them in it as victims and to treat them miserably. What did that shop keeper ever do? Where is the EVIDENCE!??! WHERE?! No where. Blockades in Gaza (this is a current issue) have left most of Gaza flooded by 20 CM of sewage which is seeping into people's houses, as well as electrical cuts which have left child incubators on the verge of powering off, AKA your new born will die. Hospitals can barely operate, people live in their own excrement, they are mauled and attacked by Israeli troops, they have no supplies because of blockades, and here we have people patting Israel on the back.


I have a quest for you; travel forth and learn at the foot of the guru of the paragraph. Then, return and retype the above.

Well if that was the kind of view being expressed, I doubt very much we'd be using the testimony of some members of the IDF to do so, a majority of them being be those "racist nazi commie Jews", as far as I'm aware....Of course having a rather dubious record on matters related to 'race' and Arabs in particular, you would take that line. However you may rest assured that most of us don't view it in those terms.

Would you like to tell us again how seeing at first hand the '3bbil arabs' on that school jaunt of yours influenced your views? Certainly we could all do with your learned insight on the matter.......




Its an illegal occupation, actually....

When Hamas, with the backing of Palestinian electorate, ceases attacking Israel, I will fall into agreement. Until then, I consider the actions of Israel to be a justified measure taken in the interests of ensuring their own security.

You're all being pretty dumb about this. Both sides hands are bloody, deal with it. And both sides do some horrid stuff, like this. That doesn't mean they have a right to do it.

If this is true, and it should be investigated to find out if it is, then how Israel acts will go a long way to show how much they support their own claims of just wanting to live peacefully. I have faith that's what Israel wants, but they're going to have to prove it by cracking down on this crap, and punishing it, like any modern country. Show to their people, to the Arabs, and to the rest of us in the world, that stupid Nazi-like shit (as this is) doesn't stand.

Or those Palestinians who are equally as violent? But surely, because the Israelis are mean, that's acceptable no?And because Palestinians are mean, it's acceptable?

No they obviously don't count because 'Palestinians are being opressed and only want to live peacefully with Israel"...but "Israelis are racist nazi commie Jews who only want to eliminate Palestinians and cannot wake up and consider a day complete without causing Palestinian babies to suffer".....


Or possibly, just possibly, it's possible to acknowledge that the Isreali armed forces may be committing what are effectively war crimes (and more importantly are not being picked up on/investigated by their own people) whilst also accepting that there are palestinians who equally commit acts of violence/terrorism against the Isrealis.

Let us not forget that there are two sides in this war and if there is going to be any chance of a peace process it is important to admit not only that both sides have legitimate points but also that both sides have done terrible things.

To say any war crime/act of terror is acceptable just because 'they did it first/worse' is wrong and that works both ways!

I think the whole IDF being a bunch of dicks is rather old news by now surely?

Or those Palestinians who are equally as violent? But surely, because the Israelis are mean, that's acceptable no?

so what your saying is they both live in abject poverty without access to a decent education and the only people who seem to realize that they exist happen to be batshit insane fundies? thats a pretty big bombshell

I love it how Atlantian accuses people supporting investigations of Israeli soldiers of making sweeping generalizations that all Israelis are evil Nazi baby-eaters...

And then makes a sweeping generalization that Palestinians cannot be respected because they all make sure to pack Grandpa full of explosives and dump him in the closest market when he's croaked.


Factions within the Isreali and Palestinian governments and armed forces are both at fault for atrocities and the continuing unrest within the region and both should be held accountable.

And because Palestinians are mean, it's acceptable?

To my mind, though Palestine ought to have accepted the judgement of the United Nations to whom it now cries "injustice" every other day, both sides are equally culpable. That the Palestinians threw the first stone, and have tended to break truces first, and take recourse to rather more underhand tactics, is a different matter of course.

I think the whole IDF being a bunch of dicks is rather old news by now surely?



so what your saying is they both live in abject poverty without access to a decent education and the only people who seem to realize that they exist happen to be batshit insane fundies? thats a pretty big bombshell

Not at all. I'm simply suggesting that, given that the UK is likely to benefit more from a victorioues Israel than Palestine, we ought to act accordingly.

Not at all. I'm simply suggesting that, given that the UK is likely to benefit more from a victorioues Israel than Palestine, we ought to act accordingly.Haha, the UK is going to lose if either side beats the other.

I have a quest for you; travel forth and learn at the foot of the guru of the paragraph. Then, return and retype the above.

lol.



Anyway, on topic. Gee, Israeli soldiers are pricks to Palestinians. Im shocked. Really. About as shocked as I am when there are suicide attacks in crowded Jewish secters of a settlement.

Theyre like two spoiled children...with guns.

LOL..Come on guys...are you trying to make my life easy? Ok, ok ...I'm sorry the Palestinians respect the Israelis enough not to throw grenades into a synagogue (in your words) but not enough to not throw their own bomb riddled bodies into a public market so as to kill civilians....

Well, that's obviously the kind of respect that deserves to be noted!

Ahh, so if one side does it, doing it in return, even to unrelated people, so long as they are of the same race, is perfectly fine.

By TAI's logic, it is perfectly fine to start mass murdering white Americans right here, right now. Because some white Americans are mass murderers. And he won't even bat an eyelash.

When Hamas, with the backing of Palestinian electorate, ceases attacking Israel, I will fall into agreement. Until then, I consider the actions of Israel to be a justified measure taken in the interests of ensuring their own security.

You want to be careful with that blank cheque there. Unless you are saying the cave of patriarchs massacre was justified.

You want to be careful with that blank cheque there. Unless you are saying the cave of patriarchs massacre was justified.

A little thought would have avoided the above; When considering the issue of the existence of the Israeli state, 1947 represents a clear starting date.

You want to be careful with that blank cheque there. Unless you are saying the cave of patriarchs massacre was justified.
"Uhhh, uhhh... Holocaust... 7 days war!!"
Those are magic words, they let Israel do whatever they want to whomever they want.

Theyre like two spoiled children...with guns.

You sound like someone I know. An Arab Baathist (Yea, an honest to god Baathist) I know says the exact same thing about the situation.

Although she adds that she thinks both sides need to be wiped out if they can't stop "acting like spoiled little brat children".

To my mind, though Palestine ought to have accepted the judgement of the United Nations
So the UN is the be-all-end-all of world politics?

I take it you agree Israel should return to the borders it was "given" in 1948?

I take it you agree Israel should be following every US resolution which has been put up to condemn it?

Clearly, with the exception of what happened in 1948 (Which while considered a reason, is not even remotely the main reason for modern viloence, the later wars are), if Israel had been doing what you proclaim the Palestinians should be doing, there would not be as much of a problem here. There are Palestinians living peacefully in the occupied territories and in Israel. Israel proved its worth when it defended itself well, it didn't need to keep settlement area. It proved its worth to the other Arab countries (Except syria, but too bad for them) when it actually tried to put stability into Lebanon in 1982. Does it need to act like the very people who forced the creation of the state to prove a point about "being better then" the Palestinians? They are hardly better then the Palestinians if they're not going to act like the rest of the civilised world and deal with the shit the bad apples in their system do. That would make them no better then even the Taliban.

This popped into my mind while reading....


sums it up pretty well, though it isnt as violent.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FNr6zRpEW3I&feature=related

A little thought would have avoided the above; When considering the issue of the existence of the Israeli state, 1947 represents a clear starting date.

The cave of patriarchs massacre occurred in 1994 and was perpetrated by one Baruch Goldstein, an off duty IDF reservist. He killed 29 Palestinian Muslims and injured 125 more in cold blood. They were unarmed, and were in prayer when Baruch Goldstein began his slaughter.

Let me clarify. These were unarmed civilians, who were in no way, anywhere near a disputed zone or engaged in any provocative acts. They were murdered in cold blood for no other particular reason than their place of birth and to continue the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

Do you justify his actions?

If they are just by your standards, then all acts of aggression by the Palestinian likewise, are likewise, just.

The cave of patriarchs massacre occurred in 1994 and was perpetrated by one Baruch Goldstein, an off duty IDF reservist. He killed 29 Palestinian Muslims and injured 125 more in cold blood. They were unarmed, and were in prayer when Baruch Goldstein began his slaughter.

Let me clarify. These were unarmed civilians, who were in no way, anywhere near a disputed zone or engaged in any provocative acts. They were murdered in cold blood for no other particular reason than their place of birth and to continue the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

Do you justify his actions?

If they are just by your standards, then all acts of aggression by the Palestinian likewise, are likewise, just.

He was off duty, and it was not a sanctioned military attack, therefore it was nothing more than murder.

"In shocking testimonies that reveal abductions, beatings and torture, Israeli soldiers confess the horror they have visited on Hebron."


It's not like NATO soldiers haven't been found guilty of the same shit.

Not at all. I'm simply suggesting that, given that the UK is likely to benefit more from a victorious Israel than Palestine, we ought to act accordingly.

pfft as our victory over the American colonies and later the reconstruction at the start of the cold war showed its far more profitable to have as many rich trading partners as possible even if it comes at an investment (an added bonus is of course that they now pay for their own defense)

pfft as our victory over the American colonies and later the reconstruction at the start of the cold war showed its far more profitable to have as many rich trading partners as possible even if it comes at an investment (an added bonus is of course that they now pay for their own defense)


"Rich trading partners"? Just like Palestine, or Syria, Jordan or the Lebanon?

"Rich trading partners"? Just like Palestine, or Syria, Jordan or the Lebanon?

I was thinking more the UAE or possibly Egypt who is already making leaps in the gas market

"Rich trading partners"? Just like Palestine, or Syria, Jordan or the Lebanon?

Well actually prior to the 1975 Civil War, exacerbated immensely by Israel and Hezbollah, Lebanon was a very financially prosperous nation.

Well actually prior to the 1975 Civil War, exacerbated immensely by Israel and Hezbollah, Lebanon was a very financially prosperous nation.

Which is irrelevent to modern considerations, no?

I was thinking more the UAE or possibly Egypt who is already making leaps in the gas market

True, however, the UAE tend to pro-western stances anyway, and I suspect Saudi Arabia, India and China would be better targets for an economic relationship than Egypt.

Which is irrelevent to modern considerations, no?

I suppose it is. It just seemed like you were assuming every Middle Eastern nation other than Israel always had poor economies.

He was off duty, and it was not a sanctioned military attack, therefore it was nothing more than murder.

Likewise, some of the abuses reported here were not sanctioned by the military, and were done for no other visible reason than for "shits and giggles". Are you saying that such should be ignored by the military?

If so, then clearly the IDF is nothing more than breeding grounds for a bunch of ill disciplined misfits.

However, I do find it curious that you would add in "sanctioned military attack", in which it appears to be a free pass to make such acts permissible. Following orders, as Nuremberg showed, is not an admissible defense. Curious isn't it then? Certainly not the methods, but the justifications being used do have some hallmarks of the past.

How many, I wonder, stared into that darkness, only to have it return that stare?

Likewise, some of the abuses reported here were not sanctioned by the military, and were done for no other visible reason than for "shits and giggles". Are you saying that such should be ignored by the military?

If so, then clearly the IDF is nothing more than breeding grounds for a bunch of ill disciplined misfits.

Wrong; Palestinian attacks are invariably unsanctioned military actions, since they are invariably committed either by Hamas, or another such terrorist cell.

It's a war. Get over it.

Yet another thing we should be learning from the Israelis.

Props to Israel.

Yet another thing we should be learning from the Israelis.

Props to Israel.

How to abuse civilians, create terrorists, and generally fuck yourself while unlawfully occupying territory?

How to dehumanize a percieved enemy and let your soldiers commit crimes with impunity?

Damn, you have no respect for Palestinians, Israelis AND Americans, have you...

True, however, the UAE tend to pro-western stances anyway

which is what an independent Palestine could have, providing a state that will stomp on its neighbors who try to keep the trouble in the region going without international forces having a quagmire

I suspect Saudi Arabia, India and China would be better targets for an economic relationship than Egypt.

apart from the (lets face it) American reserves in Saudi Arabia we are pretty fucked on the whole gas supply unless you want to play with Mr Turn-off-the-tap-Russia.

Egypt has not only been Europe's bitch since the 90's it also happens to be deregulating its markets to such a degree that it couldn't say no even if it wanted too (and lets not forget considering its agricultural state we could easily starve the place if they stopped selling)

I agree that both sides are fucking things up, but the behavior of these soldiers is inexcusable and worthy of condemnation in the same way that the Palestinian acts of terror are inexcusable and worthy of condemnation.

Yet another thing we should be learning from the Israelis.

Props to Israel.
So, I assume that you fully accept that Hamas and every other terrorist group from Hezbollah to the Lord's Resistance Army have the right to indiscriminately attack civilians too? Or do only allies of America enjoy the right to use such 'legitimate' tactics? It seems almost ironic that one can hold terrorists to a higher moral standard than soverign, democratic states.

How to abuse civilians, create terrorists, and generally fuck yourself while unlawfully occupying territory?


Its NM. Thats EXACTLY what he means.


As long as theyre non-Christians.

What, exactly, (.......)his is the end result of Arafat's damned Intifada.

emm....Bollocks? Its the result of 40 years of colonisation and what amounts to apartheid.

When Hamas, with the backing of Palestinian electorate, ceases attacking Israel, I will fall into agreement. Until then, I consider the actions of Israel to be a justified measure taken in the interests of ensuring their own security.


This was going before there was an Hamas...You are aware that the main reason they're in Hebron is to protect the Israeli colonists?

I agree that both sides are fucking things up, but the behavior of these soldiers is inexcusable and worthy of condemnation in the same way that the Palestinian acts of terror are inexcusable and worthy of condemnation.
This thread in general is so full of comments that make me roll my eyes that I was going to avoid it; but I have to Quote For Truth the above, especially given that Gravlen and I have hardly ever managed to agree on anything whatsoever.

Let me go get my visine to make my eyes watery....


Pass it when you're done.

As far as calling ME a racist because I won't cry crocodile tears over some of the most disgusting tactics the Palestinians have used to manipulate public opinion, let me make something clear:

I am not a racist. I am an a**hole.

And there is a difference.

GP

Pass it when you're done.

As far as calling ME a racist because I won't cry crocodile tears over some of the most disgusting tactics the Palestinians have used to manipulate public opinion, let me make something clear:

I am not a racist. I am an a**hole.

And there is a difference.

GP


Are you honostly going to say that the palestinians are making this up? You see this as manipulation?


Did you read the fucking article? The people saying all this are Israeli soldiers. But even if it wasnt, are you seriously obtuse enough to think that Israeli soldiers never conduct themselves poorly?

Are you honostly going to say that the palestinians are making this up? You see this as manipulation?


Did you read the fucking article? The people saying all this are Israeli soldiers. But even if it wasnt, are you seriously obtuse enough to think that Israeli soldiers never conduct themselves poorly?

Everybody knows that Palestinians and other non-Israeli Middle Easterners are genetically programmed to be Islamic terrorists, didn't you know that? NSG's wet dream is the complete extermination of the Palestinians or their complete subjugation as a subhuman Kaffir class.

Yes, both the Palestinians and the Israelies are doing this, but the Palestinians respect them enough to not throw grenades into a synagogue. In My Opinion, Israel shoudn't be there in the first place, anyway.





Palestinians prefer to throw their grenades into kindergartens. also the israeleis use non(well at least less) lethal grenades.

Wrong; Palestinian attacks are invariably unsanctioned military actions, since they are invariably committed either by Hamas, or another such terrorist cell.

I am talking about IDF abuses. Why are you talking about Palestinian attacks?

Unless of course, you are saying if someone commits a crime, anyone else can do so without reproach.

Palestinians prefer to throw their grenades into kindergartens. also the israeleis use non(well at least less) lethal grenades.

You do realize that the problem here isn't about which one is more brutal or committing more war crimes? It's the fact that the IDF units are doing them to begin with, and then being protected.

How would you like it if your local law enforcement did to you what these IDF people confessed they did to Palestinians? And then nobody would prosecute them? Even worse, everybody else is saying the abuse you suffered at the hands of law enforcement is just and right, because other people have attacked law enforcement people before.

Would you like that?

Both sides are guilty of abuses and war crimes that should see them locked up in a dark hole for the rest of their lives. But that will never happen, because both sides are too busy proclaiming how everything they do is "right and just".

It sickens me.

Palestinians prefer to throw their grenades into kindergartens. also the israeleis use non(well at least less) lethal grenades.

Lebanon war 2006: Israel used shrapnel grenades, land mines, and fragmentation bombs. So, what do you mean, 'Israel uses ''less lethal grenades''? You should read a book or newspaper or something... Or a report about what's currently happening in Gaza.