NationStates Jolt Archive

Capitalist human rights = the right to exploit

Communist Human Rights= Dont Exist...with the Exeption of the previously stated Right to Starve...and the Right to Die...

If you support communism/marxism, whatever then surely you must be against the glorification on one individual and the cult of personality!

They WHY would you support a leader like stalin who had such an obscene cult of personality built around him! The whole world knows what happened in the USSR during that period. there are witnesses

SO I want to hear you CONDEMN Stalin for the Cult of personality he had built up around himself as it was not compatable with the values the party stood for.

Did you know his face was deeply pot marked and cameras had to film him carefully so they couldnt see his double chin! A director from the 30's that was Stalins filmer said so himself

There was a soviet film in which is shows Stalin stepping off a plan into Berlin after the war with a crowd of Germans cheering and applauding.
After that scene finished Stalin leant over to the Director and said
"Bravo, If only I had gone to Berlin"

Evidence of his cult of personality was everywhere and do YOU think a Cult of personality bad? you should think its bad so i want to hear you Condem Stalins cult of personality

Even Khruschev condemned it!

Liberty is by definition a bourgeois elitist ideology that seeks to put the 'rights' of the rich landowners and petty-bourgeois above the working class majority.

Capitalist human rights = the right to exploit

So you actually believe that human rights in capitalist countries are only available to the rich?


I guess that makes sense coming from you, since in the Soviet Union the only people who had rights were the ruling class...

Communist Human Rights= Dont Exist...with the Exeption of the previously stated Right to Starve...and the Right to Die...

Rights that are being supressed by France and the anti-Euthanasia crowd, respectively.
Please, do not respond to this post seriously.

Which is why I want Andaras to explain his People's Rights.
'Rights' are not a universal concept, nor are they innate, 'rights' are ascribe by the ruling class of the day to uphold the socio-economic system of the day, thus capitalist law protects 'private property' and thus minority ownership of the means of production.

True rights of the majority only come when the majority working people have conquered political power and govern as the new ruling class.

So you actually believe that human rights in capitalist countries are only available to the rich?

Reminder: it's not the rich Andaras hates, it's the owners of the means of production.

So you actually believe that human rights in capitalist countries are only available to the rich?


I guess that makes sense coming from you, since in the Soviet Union the only people who had rights were the ruling class...

Correct, in the USSR the ruling class was the working class.

I think this needs to be posted on its own, just so a Clear Cut Definition of Human Rights can be stated

“ All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood. ”

—Article 1 of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR)

'Rights' are not a universal concept, nor are they innate, 'rights' are ascribe by the ruling class of the day to uphold the socio-economic system of the day, thus capitalist law protects 'private property' and thus minority ownership of the means of production.

True rights of the majority only come when the majority working people have conquered political power and govern as the new ruling class.

But Andaras, you do know that in theory this sounds amazing but put into practice is unrealistic? Can you name one country where this has happened as you so aptly put it? It always ends up as one class ruling the other. Unfortunately.

“ All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood. ”

—Article 1 of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR)

Im not entirely sure its Possible for Liberty without this....
For just one example, instead of enforcing rights, we could enforce certain maxims. There’s plenty to choose from; the utilitarians ‘right actions maximise the good’, the Kantian categorical imperative, etc. I’m not saying I necessarily support these, or that they would be practical, but they’re examples of non rights-based protections of liberty.

The possibility exists.

Capitalist human rights = the right to exploit
Perhaps.

I’m certainly sympathetic with Alain Badiou’s notion that human rights and codes of ‘ethics’ merely enforce the status quo and prevent social change.

On the theoretical field Lenin fundamentally advanced Marxist theory onto key issues such as Imperialism and Self-determination of peoples. His famous work 'The State and Revolution' is commonly referred to as the 'second Communist Manifesto', as it fundamentally set out the position of the working class in society and the nature of revolution in the state.

I read it. It was interesting. And Lenin was a very interesting individual.

Happy Birthday to Lenin. I'll toast to him as only a class traitor can. With orange juice purchased using money I paid for with the labor I was exploited into giving the capitalist oppressors. Ah, sweet juice.

ANDARAS
If you support communism/marxism, whatever then surely you must be against the glorification on one individual and the cult of personality!

They WHY would you support a leader like stalin who had such an obscene cult of personality built around him! The whole world knows what happened in the USSR during that period. there are witnesses

SO I want to hear you CONDEMN Stalin for the Cult of personality he had built up around himself as it was not compatable with the values the party stood for.

Did you know his face was deeply pot marked and cameras had to film him carefully so they couldnt see his double chin! A director from the 30's that was Stalins filmer said so himself

There was a soviet film in which is shows Stalin stepping off a plan into Berlin after the war with a crowd of Germans cheering and applauding.
After that scene finished Stalin leant over to the Director and said
"Bravo, If only I had gone to Berlin"

Evidence of his cult of personality was everywhere and do YOU think a Cult of personality bad? you should think its bad so i want to hear you Condem Stalins cult of personality

Even Khruschev condemned it!

Correct, in the USSR the ruling class was the working class.

No it wasn't, the ruling class were the high-ranking communist paper members, who regardless of the origins set themselves up to live like the tsars.

But Andaras, you do know that in theory this sounds amazing but put into practice is unrealistic? Can you name one country where this has happened as you so aptly put it? It always ends up as one class ruling the other. Unfortunately.

We've been trying to tell him this for the better part of Two Hours now...

Im posting for my own enjoyment at this point, lol

True rights of the majority only come when the majority working people have conquered political power and govern as the new ruling class.

So what 'rights' do you think the proletariat would enact? Or is that an 'only time will tell' situation?

It is common to hear Stalin described as a ‘dictator'....

The strongly anti-Soviet American writer Eugene Lyons once asked Stalin directly: ‘Are you a dictator?’ Lyons goes on (and I quote)

"Stalin smiled, implying that the question was on the preposterous side.

‘No’, he said slowly, ‘I am no dictator. Those who use the word do not understand the Soviet system of government and the methods of the Communist Party. No one man or group of men can dictate. Decisions are made by the Party".

The British Fabian economists Sidney and Beatrice Webb, in their comprehensive book ‘Soviet Communism: A New Civilisation’ categorically reject the notion of Stalin as a dictator. They say (and I quote):

"Stalin . . . has not even the extensive power . . . which the American Constitution entrusts for four years to every successive president. .

The Communist Party in the USSR has adopted its own organisation.

In this pattern individual dictatorship has no place. Personal decisions are distrusted and elaborately guarded against",

Certainly, in the time of Lenin and Stalin the Soviet regime was officially described as one of the ‘dictatorship of the proletariat . But this does not imply personal dictatorship. It means simply that political power is in the hands of working people, and that political activity aimed at taking political power away from the working people is illegal.

Of course, this latter is regarded in official circles in London and Washington as ‘undemocratic’ and ‘a grave violation of human rights’

But the word ‘democracy’ means ‘the rule of the common people’, and in this sense- the Soviet -Union in Stalin’s time was infinitely more democratic than any Western country.

As for ‘human rights’, the United Nations Human Rights Convention of 1966 lays down that states should guarantee to their citizens the ‘right to work’.

But only in a socialist society can this right be put into effect, can unemployment be abolished (as it was in the Soviet Union in Stalin’s time). A capitalist society requires what Marx called ‘a reserve army of labour ‘ so that it can make labour readily available in times of boom.

Thus, for a socialist country to ban political activity aimed at the restoration of capitalism is fully in accord with the UN Convention on Human Rights.

In fact, talk about human rights is in most cases merely a propaganda weapon directed against socialism. In the eyes of Lombard Street and Wall Street, a corrupt central American ‘banana republic’ which sends out nightly death squads to murder homeless children in order to keep the streets tidy for the tourist trade counts as a ‘free country’ as long as it allows freedom of investment.

The Soviet traitors to socialism opened their attack upon socialism in 1956 at the 20th Congress of the Communist Party in February 1956 by charging Stalin with organising a ‘cult of personality’ around himself.

Certainly, there in the time of Stalin. wishes. In fact, Stalin

was a cult of Stalin’s personality in the Soviet Union But this was organised not by Stalin, but against his himself opposed and ridiculed this cult.

For example, when in February 1938 someone wanted to publish entitled ‘Stories of the Childhood of Stalin’, Stalin wrote typically:

"I am absolutely against the publication of ‘Stories of the Childhood of Stalin’.

The book abounds with a mass of inexactitudes of fact, . . . of exaggerations and of unmerited praise. .

But… the important thing resides tendency to engrave on the minds of Soviet children (and people in general) the personality cult of leaders, of infallible heroes. This is dangerous and detrimental…I suggest we burn this book".

There was indeed a ‘cult of personality’ around Stalin. A leading. communist cried at the 18th Congress of the Party in March 1939:

"The Ukrainian people proclaim with all their heart and soul . ‘Long live our beloved Stalin!’ .

Long live the towering genius of all humanity, . . . our beloved Comrade Stalin!"

The speaker was Nikita Khrushchev!

It was Khrushchev too who coined the term ‘Stalinism’ and began to call Stalin ‘Vozhd" - the Russian equivalent of the German ‘Fuhrer’, Leader.

In other words, the ‘cult of personality’ around Stalin was built up not by Stalin and those who genuinely supported him, but by his political opponents as a prelude to attacking him later as a megalomaniac dictator

Even though Stalin did not have the power to stop these alleged manifestations of ‘loyalty’ and ‘patriotism’, Stalin was no fool and was aware that their motives were, as he told the German writer Lion Feuchtwanger in 1937, ‘to discredit him’ at a later date.

Thus, the cult of personality around Stalin was contrary to Stalin’s own wishes, and the fact that it went on demonstrates that in the last few years of his life Stalin - far from wielding dictatorial power - was in a minority within the Soviet leadership.

We've been trying to tell him this for the better part of Two Hours now...

Im posting for my own enjoyment at this point, lol

That's the only reason to debate with AP, he is completely immune to fact and reason.

We've been trying to tell him this for the better part of Two Hours now...

Im posting for my own enjoyment at this point, lol

Meh, if he still doesn´t get it...

Guess I´ll just sit back here and enjoy the show for the remainder of the evening.

SO I want to hear you CONDEMN Stalin for the Cult of personality he had built up around himself as it was not compatable with the values the party stood for.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c6/Roses_for_Stalin_by_Vladimirskij.jpg/225px-Roses_for_Stalin_by_Vladimirskij.jpg
Bring the little children unto me, for they are precious to me.
:p

Also, what about the Cult of Lenin that Stalin built up around him?

Edit: I'm pretty sure Andaras thinks Trotsky was counter-revolutionary, so I doubt he'll do that.

Meh, if he still doesn´t get it...

Guess I´ll just sit back here and enjoy the show for the remainder of the evening.

Your late, im sorry, lol...Id like to continue the show, but, I think id rather watch John Oliver's Stand-Up, one of the best ive seen so far, btw, Shower and Sleep...

Ive begun to be a little Redundant at this point anyway, i dont think i can add anything else...

Night Everyone...and, Hell, Happy Birthday Lenin, lol....cant forget the Brutal Dictators, lol...

Andaras
What do you think of Nicolae and Elena ceausescu? and Kim Jong il and Kim Il Sung, Enver Hoxha, and Mao Tse Tung. I want to hear what you think of these leaders each of them please

In my opinion all of them were just as evil as each other all seeking to make themselves wealthy. betraying thier people. tyranizing them. Building palaces to themselves.

As I pointed out in my last post above, Stalin actively fought against the personality cult whenever it appeared, and this is consistant with the Leninist tradition. The personality cult however, was not an ad hoc occurance but as I pointed out was a tactic made up by the Krushevite revisionist clique to try and paint Stalin as a fascist - which Stalin realized and he condemned the anti-Marxist positions of the Krushevite clique.

Andaras
What do you think of Nicolae and Elena ceausescu? and Kim Jong il and Kim Il Sung, Enver Hoxha, and Mao Tse Tung. I want to hear what you think of these leaders each of them please

In my opinion all of them were just as evil as each other all seeking to make themselves wealthy. betraying thier people. tyranizing them. Building palaces to themselves.

You fool! Don´t engage the AP on this argument! Can´t you see we´re trying to reason with AP?!:eek:
*flails and runs away*
Hilarity will shortly ensue.

Moa was just a bad leader, the deaths under his government was unintentional. same with Lenin.

I just want to see what he thinks of the other despots who were SUPOSE to stand for the people but betrayed them all

Mao was a stupid idiot he told all the pesant to melt down thier farming tools and build blast furnaces in their backyard

Did he just think food would magically appear with no peasants what a stupid prick

those unfortunate 30 million souls of the famine of the 50's and 60's

Andaras
What do you think of Nicolae and Elena ceausescu? and Kim Jong il and Kim Il Sung, Enver Hoxha, and Mao Tse Tung. I want to hear what you think of these leaders each of them please

In my opinion all of them were just as evil as each other all seeking to make themselves wealthy. betraying thier people. tyranizing them. Building palaces to themselves.
Ceausescu: Started out alright in the early days, but like most the Eastern bloc eventually embraced Soviet revisionism post 1956.
Mao: Left-revisionist, Three-Worlds theory is nationalist-imperialist garbage.
Kims: Started out alright with a strong Marxist-Leninist materialist approach. Today though they embrace nationalism and class collaboration, as well as 'export zones' for capitalist enterprises.
Hoxha: Hardline and solid fighter for the working class in Albania, advanced Marxism-Leninism significantly through the refutation of the modern revisionist trend in socialism and the treacherous Krushevites. His work 'Imperialism and the Revolution' was a fundamental view on imperialism, revisionism and a major advancement of Leninism to his own times.

do you know that in Enver Hoxha's albania people were banned from fishing in boats incase they fled! it sounds a little excesive dont you think?

Or would you, like enver ban people from leaving your country too?

AP, what are your feelings about Trotsky?

do you know that in Enver Hoxha's albania people were banned from fishing in boats incase they fled! it sounds a little excesive dont you think?

Or would you, like enver ban people from leaving your country too?
I have heard a myriad of myths and anti-communist garbage about comrade Hoxha, none of it was true.

I actually keep being told that Hoxha building the bunkers to deter Yugoslavian invasion 'impoverished' the country yet it's common knowledge the bunkers only cost 1% of GDP for three years.

Next you'll be telling me he was a cannabal.

As I pointed out in my last post above, Stalin actively fought against the personality cult whenever it appeared.

Later, in 1924, Stalin himself created a myth around a so-called "Party Centre" which "directed" all practical work pertaining to the uprising, consisting of himself, Sverdlov, Dzerzhinsky, Uritsky, and Bubnov. No evidence was ever shown for the activity of this "centre", which would, in any case, have been subordinate to the Military Revolutionary Council, headed by Trotsky.
really?
After Lenin's death in January 1924, Stalin, Kamenev, and Zinoviev together governed the party, placing themselves ideologically between Trotsky (on the left wing of the party) and Bukharin (on the right). During this period, Stalin abandoned the traditional Bolshevik emphasis on international revolution in favor of a policy of building "Socialism in One Country", in contrast to Trotsky's theory of Permanent Revolution.

In the struggle for leadership after Lenin's death one thing was evident; whoever ended up ruling the party had to demonstrate fealty to the memory of Lenin. Stalin did so by organizing the late leader's funeral, after which he made a speech professing an undying loyalty to Lenin that was almost religious in nature.

Stalin's actual relationship with Lenin, which was far more complex than Stalin's speeches alluded, has been illuminated by a number of sources that were made available after the fall of the Soviet Union, including some from Lenin's sister.
Hmmmm...
An important feature of Stalin’s rise to power is the way that he manipulated his opponents and played them off against each other. Stalin formed a "troika" of himself, Zinoviev, and Kamenev against Trotsky. When Trotsky had been eliminated, Stalin then joined Bukharin and Rykov against Zinoviev and Kamenev, emphasising their vote against the insurrection in 1917. Zinoviev and Kamenev then turned to Lenin's widow, Krupskaya; they formed the "United Opposition" in July 1926.

In 1927 during the 15th Party Congress Trotsky and Zinoviev were expelled from the party and Kamenev lost his seat on the Central Committee. Stalin soon turned against the "Right Opposition", represented by his erstwhile allies, Bukharin and Rykov.

Stalin gained popular appeal from his presentation as a 'man of the people' from the poorer classes. The Russian people were tired from the world war and the civil war, and Stalin's policy of concentrating in building "Socialism in One Country" was seen as an optimistic antidote to war.

Stalin took great advantage of the ban on factionalism which meant that no group could openly go against the policies of the leader of the party because that meant creation of an opposition. By 1928 (the first year of the Five-Year Plans) Stalin was supreme among the leadership, and the following year Trotsky was exiled because of his opposition. Having also outmaneuvered Bukharin's Right Opposition and now advocating collectivization and industrialization, Stalin can be said to have exercised control over the party and the country.

However, as the popularity of other leaders such as Sergei Kirov and the so-called Ryutin Affair were to demonstrate, Stalin did not achieve absolute power until the Great Purge of 1936–1938.

To say that there was a cult of personality in the USSR but stalin discounraged and to believe that after stalin bad people then led the country must mean that there was a fault in the soviet system?

I guess it wasnt full proof then. Does this mean you admit the Soviet system had faults! and by the looks of it, it lead to soviet collapse

I guess that means the soviet system wasnt so perfect after all.

So mind telling here what the FAULTS of the SOVIET SYSTEM was

AP, what are your feelings about Trotsky?

Dyakovo, now, you´re sounding too much like a therapist there.:D

My post above means that the soviet system is and was failable

Next you'll be telling me he was a cannabal.

Baby-eater, actually.

really?

Hmmmm...
Please do not quote bourgeois propaganda to me.

My post above means that the soviet system is and was failable

As every other government system is. They all have flaws.

Dyakovo, now, you´re sounding too much like a therapist there.:D

:D

YES all governments are failable!

Even Albania's, even the USSR's. ALL GOVERNMENTS HAVE FAULTS AND ARE FAILABLE!

MY KEYBOARD HAS A CAPSLOCK KEY ASWELL!

*insert ramdom smilie*

Please do not quote bourgeois propaganda to me.

And the fact that a good bit of that is based in part upon the works of soviet historians means nothing?

Not to mention the fact that Stalin self-proclaimed closeness to Lenin has been proven to be nothing more than his efforts to further his political career?

YES all governments are failable!

Even Albania's, even the USSR's. ALL GOVERNMENTS HAVE FAULTS AND ARE FAILABLE!

For the love of the White Rabbit, don´t you know how to use the ¨Quote¨ button at the bottom of your post box? Click it, use it, it´s your friend.

Everybody

We all know better. If he's happy believing stalin is a great leader and his system was unfailable then fine whatever but we all know better and so do the millions of people that lived under these systems.

goodbye. I might stay on a bit longer to watch where else this can go

YES all governments are failable!

Even Albania's, even the USSR's. ALL GOVERNMENTS HAVE FAULTS AND ARE FAILABLE!
Did you hear me claiming that they didn't have flaws? The case of the USSR however was a gradual process in which revisionism morphed eventually into glasnost and perestroika and restored capitalism outright.

It's important to remember however that since 1956 the USSR had a gradual increase of capitalism ever since Marxism began to be watered down by the revisionists, firstly through the liberalizations of Krushev, the corporatism of Brezhnev and eventually the full-blown bourgeois capitalism of Gorbachev.

For that reason it's important safeguards are put in place to ensure revisionism is weeded out.

hahaha yeah i see that quote thing and I'm like meh whatever

and whoops I didnt do it again hahha

hahaha yeah i see that quote thing and I'm like meh whatever

and whoops I didnt do it again hahha

OMG, it´s a... a... wth are you? For the life of me, I can´t place you in any human group. Seriously. What are you?

OMG, it´s a... a... wth are you? For the life of me, I can´t place you in any human group. Seriously. What are you?
He's the top of the pyramid, that's what he is...
hahaha yeah i see that quote thing and I'm like meh whatever

and whoops I didnt do it again hahha

OMG, it´s a... a... wth are you? For the life of me, I can´t place you in any human group. Seriously. What are you?

Ok my first ever quote
and who or what am I?

I'm a KIWI! from New Zealand living on the north island

Yes I'm a stupid bitch but my country and other fellow kiwi's arent dont judge them becuase of me haha

OMG, it´s a... a... wth are you? For the life of me, I can´t place you in any human group. Seriously. What are you?

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/simpsons/images/thumb/5/55/Kang.jpg/140px-Kang.jpg

He's the top of the pyramid, that's what he is...

Of which pyramid? Evolution´s mistakes pyramid?:D

Ok my first ever quote
and who or what am I?

I'm a KIWI! from New Zealand living on the north island

Yes I'm a stupid bitch but my country and other fellow kiwi's arent dont judge them becuase of me haha

It´s worse than I thought. Dodos are back and they learned to use computers. These are indeed the final days.:eek:

I'm a KIWI!

http://www.picturejockey.com/pblog/2005/9/images/kiwi.jpg
or
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/02/images/060217_kiwi.jpg?

ouch :(

why is everyone deciding to crusify me? haha

and by the way a Kiwi is another word for a New Zealander. I'm not trying to tell you I'm a flightless bird. ah whatever o cant be bothered explaining myself.

You guys all from the US and UK?

http://www.picturejockey.com/pblog/2005/9/images/kiwi.jpg or http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/02/images/060217_kiwi.jpg?

Or? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdUUx5FdySs)

You guys all from the US and UK?

I'm from Caanaadaa, and they think I'm slowww, ehhh?

ouch :(

why is everyone deciding to crusify me? haha

and by the way a Kiwi is another word for a New Zealander. I'm not trying to tell you I'm a flightless bird. ah whatever o cant be bothered explaining myself.

You guys all from the US and UK?

Spain, baby. Brits and Americans have nothing on me. Yup. As for crucifying, we ardently think a Messiah´s needed in every thread. You´re this thread´s Messiah and for that matter, we need to crucify you.;)

ouch :(

why is everyone deciding to crusify me? haha
It's all in good fun
*nails Bulgi to cross*
and by the way a Kiwi is another word for a New Zealander. I'm not trying to tell you I'm a flightless bird. ah whatever o cant be bothered explaining myself.
Yes, I know that Kiwi is slang for New Zealander, it makes for some fun though...
You guys all from the US and UK?
I'm from the U.S., Nanatsu is a damn Spaniard ;)

ah yeah i know its all in good fun *Cough Cough* haha

so i guess this topic isnt talking about marxist lenninist anymore?

I'm from the U.S., Nanatsu is a damn Spaniard ;)

Aye, aye, I´m a damn Spaniard. Dyakovo is a damn American.:D

ah yeah i know its all in good fun *Cough Cough* haha

so i guess this topic isnt talking about marxist lenninist anymore?
Not until AP comes back...
Aye, aye, I´m a damn Spaniard. Dyakovo is a damn American.:D

;)

Это - только из-за вмешательства злых капиталистических собак свиньи.
That's only because of the interference of the evil capitalist pig-dogs.

*squints hard* Erm...something about capitalist dogs?

*squints hard* Erm...something about capitalist dogs?

Capitalist pig-dogs...
:D

Not until AP comes back...


;)

Bathroom break and just so you know... this transatlantic flights fuck you over. I´m staring at the Chicago night, knowing full well I should be in bed but I can´t sleep.

*settles to wait for AP to come back*

New Zealand power! see how we dominate every thread?

New Zealand power! see how we dominate every thread?

No
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/19667.gif

That is the first time ive felt the need to put a User's Quote in My sig, it just so epitomizes the problem with the Marxist system...

Someone already has an almost duplicate quote in their sig, which is how I remembered that Andaras is against human rights. :P

Someone already has an almost duplicate quote in their sig, which is how I remembered that Andaras is against human rights. :P

In Andara´s world, Human rights eat you for supper.

WOOHOO ANOTHER New Zealander?

You in the North Island?

I am guessing then that you must be a petty-bourgeois yourself then, and you talk about 'Why should I', your selfish and individualist claptrap belies your position I am afraid. It is not the petty minority classes that are decaying with the Old system that will decide the future of society. These classes have only inflated and largely artificial political power from the use of their capitalist profits. The real power of society lies with the Great Class, those who produce the needs of society, the great workers, it is they would through their size and coming economic power that they will construct socialism and a new future.

You can whinge and whine all you like, but the old decayed petty-classes cannot last and you and your ilk can cry about 'rights' and all your claptrap all you like, it makes little difference.

Out of curiosity, what do you do for a living?

In AP's world, human's don't have rights, only the party has rights.

fixed

fixed

I like that one a lot.

WOOHOO ANOTHER New Zealander?

You in the North Island?

It must be a kiwi thing...
Not using the quote button, that is.
:D

It must be a kiwi thing...
Not using the quote button, that is.
:D

It must be a kiwi thing?

You mean asking if your from North of South Island or getting excited when we see another Kiwi?

I like that one a lot.

The sad part is, that is probably all to accurate to his views.

WOOHOO ANOTHER New Zealander?

You in the North Island?

nope, Rangiora(near Chch)

theres a 50% chance you're in Auckland?

It must be a kiwi thing?

You mean asking if your from North of South Island or getting excited when we see another Kiwi?

No, the white text, silly kiwi person.
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/pie.gif

nope, Rangiora(near Chch)

theres a 50% chance you're in Auckland?

Either he is or he isn't?

Well I'm from Warworth one hour north of Auckland. WW is in rodney district and i think they consider that part of Auckland although i dont consider myself an Aucklander.

wow a south islander has the internet!? your catching up hahha jokes

The sad part is, that is probably all to accurate to his views.

Yeah, but it´s cool. It gives us material to make fun about.

i do, i can't be bothered now.

Please do not quote bourgeois propaganda to me.

I have to profess I am disappointed, Andaras. You're a better debater than that to retreat into the "foundless lies of the bourgeois" whine.

wow a south islander has the internet!? your catching up hahha jokes

great! now i'm backwater to other new zealanders!

meh, if you count towards the 1.5 million.

I was just joking. The southisland is as developed as the rest of the country.

Capitalist pig-dogs...
:D

Somewhere in Santa Cruz, my old Russian professor hangs his head in shame.

I have to profess I am disappointed, Andaras. You're a better debater than that to retreat into the "foundless lies of the bourgeois" whine.

No, actually he isn't, at least not when presented with actual facts. You obviously are thinking of our other communists, you know, the ones that aren't rabid Stalinists.

fixed

Okay, I give up. Why is he AP?? Andaras Proletariat? Andaras Propaganda? I'm sickly and dumb tonight.

Somewhere in Santa Cruz, my old Russian professor hangs his head in shame.

Was my grammar that bad?
OK, I'm sure it probably was, my knowledge of russian is completely self-taught.

Somewhere in Santa Cruz, my old Russian professor hangs his head in shame.

Was he a capitalist pig-dog? :eek:

Okay, I give up. Why is he AP?? Andaras Proletariat? Andaras Propaganda? I'm sickly and dumb tonight.

His original nation was Andaras Prime, thus AP.

No, actually he isn't, at least not when presented with actual facts. You obviously are thinking of our other communists, you know, the ones that aren't rabid Stalinists.

Well, yes, they're better debators than he is, but I've still seen more impressive from him. Whining about propaganda from a group that eats, sleeps and breathes propaganda is one of my least favorite things about communists.

Was he a capitalist pig-dog? :eek:

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/rotflol.gif

Well, yes, they're better debators than he is, but I've still seen more impressive from him. Whining about propaganda from a group that eats, sleeps and breathes propaganda is one of my least favorite things about communists.

True, he does usually post a counter-link in addition to his whining about capitalist propaganda.

Well, yes, they're better debators than he is, but I've still seen more impressive from him. Whining about propaganda from a group that eats, sleeps and breathes propaganda is one of my least favorite things about communists.

He might be tired.

Was my grammar that bad?
OK, I'm sure it probably was, my knowledge of russian is completely self-taught.

No, he feels shame because I could only identify 4 of the words in that sentence after a year of Russian. Admittedly that was four years ago and I've rarely had a need to use any Russian since.

Was he a capitalist pig-dog? :eek:

No, he was actually a very sweet man who loved Gogol and told really dumb jokes that you wanted to laugh at just so he wouldn't be sad.

I was just joking. The southisland is as developed as the rest of the country.

thats it, just tell yourself your as good as us.:p

No, he feels shame because I could only identify 4 of the words in that sentence after a year of Russian. Admittedly that was four years ago and I've rarely had a need to use any Russian since.

I took Russian last year and I recognized none of it.

Then again, I took it for fun and as a generic language requirment, not to actually learn it.

hahaha ok well we have most of the population, Capital city, and mainly all of New Zealands industry while the southisland has all the farmlands and scenary.
Though the north island scenary is good too. and plus those people in Gore in the south island sound funny hahaha

I think if the North Island and south island were independent countries the North Island would be richer :P

hahaha ok well we have most of the population, Capital city, and mainly all of New Zealands industry while the southisland has all the farmlands and scenary.
Though the north island scenary is good too. and plus those people in Gore in the south island sound funny hahaha

I think if the North Island and south island were independent countries the North Island would be richer :P

I sense New Zealander rivalry here. Me likes teh drama. Please, proceed.

Hey is it true you south islanders dislike North islanders more then the Australians? hahaha

I sense New Zealander rivalry here. Me likes teh drama. Please, proceed.

Or lovefest...

Bulgi >http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/love072.gif<Lach

hahaha ok well we have most of the population, Capital city, and mainly all of New Zealands industry while the southisland has all the farmlands and scenary.
Though the north island scenary is good too. and plus those people in Gore in the south island sound funny hahaha

I think if the North Island and south island were independent countries the North Island would be richer :P

you would also have most of the violence, a large P problem, and HELEN CLARK!!!! dun dun dun!

Or lovefest...

Bulgi >http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/love072.gif<Lach

ROFL! Kiwi cream pies!!:D

Hey is it true you south islanders dislike North islanders more then the Australians? hahaha

You're both annoying, we're just stuck close to you :p atleast you don't cheat in sports.

Whats wrong with Helen Clark :P hahaha

I actually dont mind her. Infact if the election is very tight I'm gonna vote her just so we dont have John Key.
If not Labour I'll vote Greens maybe hmmm i dunno hahha a left leaning part anyway.

And yea she looks and sounds like a man but i dont care I'd have her babies hahaha jokes

Or lovefest...

Bulgi >http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/love072.gif<Lach


omg, that is so wrong, funny but wrong.

omg, that is so wrong, funny but wrong.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/Dziekuje.gif
My work here is done...
Not really, you're not that lucky.
:D

Stalin was hardly the dictatorial person people try to make him out as, in fact Stalin for his advancements of Marxist theory remained humble and credited Lenin constantly for the development of socialism, despite the fact that Lenin died half way through the NEP and it actually came to Stalin to actually build socialism upon the newly build means of production the NEP created.

The personality cult too is a big myth as I demonstrated before in my last post on the matter, although one did develop in an ad hoc way (mostly due to the exuberant feelings after the soviet victory in the war), but when it got dangerous Stalin denounced it. And even in the early days he was strongly against it:

June 1926: "I must say in all conscience, comrades, that I do not deserve a good half of the flattering things that have been said here about me. I am, it appears, a hero of the October Revolution, the leader of the Communist Party of the Soviet, the leader of the Communist International, a legendary warrior-knight and all the rest of it. This is absurd, comrades, and quite unnecessary exaggeration. It is the sort of thing that is usually said at the graveside of a departed revolutionary. But I have no intention of dying yet. I really was, and still am, one of the pupils of the advanced workers of the Tiflis railway workshops". (J. V. Stalin: 'Works’, Volume 8; Moscow; 1954; p. 182).

For all the charges leveled against Stalin as an 'agent of the capitalists' and his background, Stalin started out as nothing but a railway man who became an organizer of workers and helped shape his identity as a Marxist.

wait, isn't this thread about New Zealand rivalries?:eek:

wait, isn't this thread about New Zealand rivalries?:eek:

It certainly became one for a while...

Stalin was hardly the dictatorial person people try to make him out as, in fact Stalin for his advancements of Marxist theory remained humble and credited Lenin constantly for the development of socialism, despite the fact that Lenin died half way through the NEP and it actually came to Stalin to actually build socialism upon the newly build means of production the NEP created.Um...
1. Stalin credited Lenin
2. ?????
3. Stalin wasn't dictatorial (Profit)
The personality cult too is a big myth as I demonstrated before in my last post on the matter, although one did develop in an ad hoc way (mostly due to the exuberant feelings after the soviet victory in the war), but when it got dangerous Stalin denounced it. And even in the early days he was strongly against it:Nothing makes me laugh like you claiming there's no Stalinist personality cult. :D
For all the charges leveled against Stalin as an 'agent of the capitalists' and his background, Stalin started out as nothing but a railway man who became an organizer of workers and helped shape his identity as a Marxist.You forget the bit about him being a wife-beater, and that his only surviving child loved the USSR so much, she moved to America.

Stalin killed thousands, Lenin did not! Lenin was a great man!Yeah, opposing actual communists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makhnovism) makes him a great man...

Castro not oppressive and hateful!!! now i'm just getting pissed off!!!

i don't like Rual, Ches should've taken over after Fidel, granted he's dead, but if he wasn't.Why would you support a family oligarchy?

Yeah, opposing actual communists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makhnovism) makes him a great man...

Anarchists.

Why would you support a family oligarchy?

how would Che Guavara becoming presidente after fidel make a family oilgarphy?

Anarchists.And given that communism is a form of anarchism, it makes no difference.

how would Che Guavara becoming presidente after fidel make a family oilgarphy?Oh, sorry. You didn't give a last name, I erroneously assumed something.
Nonetheless, Fidel was in office for quite some time, wouldn't you rather have had some kind of term limits?

And given that communism is a form of anarchism, it makes no difference.
Anarchism is a socially harmful far-right lumpenproletariat ideology which uses fascist tactics and extremely opposes authority (meaning it opposes the authority of the ruling working class).

Anarchism is a socially harmful far-right lumpenproletariat ideology which uses fascist tactics and extremely opposes authority (meaning it opposes the authority of the ruling working class).And yet somehow it's the final step, after the state withers away and we have communism. Do you oppose the state's withering away?

And yet somehow it's the final step, after the state withers away and we have communism. Do you oppose the state's withering away?
I am a Communist so of course I do, but without a socialist transition whereby the economic conditions are made for such a transition - communism is not possible. Trying to make utopia overnight is always going to end badly.

che means 'you' in spanish, i don't know who you could've thought i meant.
castro was voted in for that long(even today he's very loved), i'm not sure about term limits...

And given that communism is a form of anarchism, it makes no difference.

anarchism must come after socialism. after democracy, when theres no intervention.

oh and for the record i disagree with AP.Highly.

This thread is dedicated to the birthday of Vladimir Ilyich Lenin, a great man who led the Bolsheviks to overthrow the petite-bourgeois regime of Kerensky in the Great October Socialist Revolution and establish a dictatorship of the working class in the territorial possession of the former Russian empire, known as the Soviet Union. He directed the Red Army to defeating the right-wing fascist, anarchist and counter-revolutionary forces, as well as the armies of the US, France, Britain, Imperial Japan and others who tried to strangle worker power in Russia yet only succeeded in cementing the solidarity of the brotherly union of soviets.

On the theoretical field Lenin fundamentally advanced Marxist theory onto key issues such as Imperialism and Self-determination of peoples. His famous work 'The State and Revolution' is commonly referred to as the 'second Communist Manifesto', as it fundamentally set out the position of the working class in society and the nature of revolution in the state.

On a more general note Leninism today is noted as the theory for the political organization of the working class effectively to aggravate class warfare against the bourgeois, in particular through the avante-garde of the Party.

Damn I thought this was thread about Mark Almond and John Lennon!

Anarchism is a socially harmful far-right lumpenproletariat ideology which uses fascist tactics and extremely opposes authority (meaning it opposes the authority of the ruling working class).Prove it. And learn how to spell "Lumpenproletariat" and when "lumpenproletarisch" is more appropriate.

Prove it.

Indeed that is not at all how I understand anarchism.

che means 'you' in spanish, i don't know who you could've thought i meant.

As well as brutal murderer, but, that's conveniently ignored by modern teenage "Target" anarchists.


castro was voted in for that long(even today he's very loved), i'm not sure about term limits...


Under no circumstances can the Cuban elections be called democratic. They are entirely uncompetitive, and candidate slates are universally approved, the elections are administered by terror-squads and, oh, opposition political parties, of any stripe, are banned.

Prove it. And learn how to spell "Lumpenproletariat" and when "lumpenproletarisch" is more appropriate.

Er hat keine Idee, wie Deutsch oder Französisch Wörter zu benutzen.

Who can provide evidence that the Soviet Union was a dictatorship of the proletariat and not a dictatorship of a small group of people who decided they knew better than the proletariat what was good for them? Those people came in power through an armed coup, not elections.

I am a Communist so of course I do, but without a socialist transition whereby the economic conditions are made for such a transition - communism is not possible. Trying to make utopia overnight is always going to end badly.

The lesson of the 20th century is that trying to make utopia at all is always going to end badly.

RIP, Innumberable millions of victims of the ideology of murder and theft.

Er hat keine Idee, wie deutsche oder französische Wörter zu benutzen sind.Fixed and agreed ;)

Fixed and agreed ;)

I'm never going to be able to wrap my head around the appropriate use of "sein" words in these situations...

I have to profess I am disappointed, Andaras. You're a better debater than that to retreat into the "foundless lies of the bourgeois" whine.

Erm. No he isn't.

Stalin was hardly the dictatorial person people try to make him out as

lol

Erm. No he isn't.
Proof!
lol
Pudding!

Id agree with you in principal but Leninism isnt the way to fix it...

For it did not end the Class struggle, it simply replaced the old Bourgeoisie with a new one made of Politicians...it in fact made the struggle worse, for in the USSR the Government WAS the Bourgeoisie...

Social-Democracy is the way to go...

QFT

For that reason it's important safeguards are put in place to ensure revisionism is weeded out.

Aye usually from a 9mm pistol round to the back of the head... or if your communist paradise is too poor to have bullets, a few blows froma piece of dead tree will do.........assumming the masses have'nt eaten the tree before hand.

For me the biggest comdemnation of the USSR came in 1945 with the end of the war against Nazism,when the german POW camps were liberated and the russian prisoners were freed only to find comrade stalin had said 'No true communist would surrender to the fascists" and promptly had the ex-pows sent to the gulag.

Do you prefer an "individualist" tyranny of the minority? Marx would argue that there are no other options within the present material structure of society. It's one or the other... and at least the rule of the working class offers us a way out by offering the prospect of the abolition of class society.

I prefer no tyranny at all, or at least(since I'm a realist)as little tyranny as possible. I also prefer the expression of individual taste and/or achievement to the collective hive-mind.

As for the rest, yeah, a classless society might sound great to some people, but the theory always runs smack into the fact of human nature. Like Huxley said, "It is the great tragedy of science - the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact."

I prefer no tyranny at all,

That's nice. Who wouldn't? But that wasn't the question.

I also prefer the expression of individual taste and/or achievement to the collective hive-mind.

Does "collective hive-mind" even mean anything in the context of economic and political systems? I tend to doubt it. Certainly it has nothing to do with socialism.

As for the rest, yeah, a classless society might sound great to some people, but the theory always runs smack into the fact of human nature.

It's great that you think that. But if you want to have a discussion, it would be helpful if you would provide reasons.

I am a Communist so of course I do, but without a socialist transition whereby the economic conditions are made for such a transition - communism is not possible. Trying to make utopia overnight is always going to end badly.

anarchism must come after socialism. after democracy, when theres no intervention.Then why were the Makhnovists succeeding, to the point when communism was closer to being realized there than at any point during the entire existence of the Soviet Union?

That's nice. Who wouldn't? But that wasn't the question.

That's because you clipped out the part of my statement that did answer your question. Re: what kind of tyranny I would prefer, as I said, being a realist and knowing that 'none' as an answer is impossible I would prefer as little as possible regardless of it's 'flavor.'

Does "collective hive-mind" even mean anything in the context of economic and political systems? I tend to doubt it. Certainly it has nothing to do with socialism.

It's hard to imagine a political or social system that embodies the concept more than socialism/communism.

It's great that you think that. But if you want to have a discussion, it would be helpful if you would provide reasons.

I think you mean 'examples' for which you might want to turn your gaze towards oh, I don't know, human history.

Re: what kind of tyranny I would prefer, as I said, being a realist and knowing that 'none' as an answer is impossible I would prefer as little as possible regardless of it's 'flavor.'

That doesn't answer the question either. I don't know how you want to quantify "tyranny." It's at least reasonable that one might find the dictatorship of the proletariat decidedly less tyrannical than a capitalist oligarchy. But not inevitable.

It's hard to imagine a political or social system that embodies the concept more than socialism/communism.

Generally, when someone challenges a point of yours, they want you to justify it. Not repeat it.

I think you mean 'examples' for which you might want to turn your gaze towards oh, I don't know, human history.

I don't know how you prefer to define "history", but for the vast majority of the time the human species has existed on the planet, classless foraging societies have been the dominant social mode. Those times when classlessness has achieved something of a material reality in more modern industrial societies, it was destroyed not by internal problems, but by external force.

As well as brutal murderer, but, that's conveniently ignored by modern teenage "Target" anarchists.

under what circumstances could che be called a brutal murderer?


Under no circumstances can the Cuban elections be called democratic. They are entirely uncompetitive, and candidate slates are universally approved, the elections are administered by terror-squads and, oh, opposition political parties, of any stripe, are banned.

just because its not the exclusive 'two party' or 'multi-party' doesn't mean its not democratic. they can vote for whoever they want, its just out of the comprimise of 'i'm a democrat so i must support this bill i find stupid'.

under what circumstances could che be called a brutal murderer?

His behaviors as commandant of La Cabana, in which he ridiculed the concept of jury trials, ordered the deaths of hundreds of dissidents, of whom only a fraction were tied to the security forces of the Batista regime, and his later behaviors towards the Cuban people, when he perceived them as disagreeing with him.




just because its not the exclusive 'two party' or 'multi-party' doesn't mean its not democratic. they can vote for whoever they want, its just out of the comprimise of 'i'm a democrat so i must support this bill i find stupid'.

You obviously have no idea how Cuban 'eletions' function. The people are presented with a single candidate, who has been preselected by the Communist party apparatus in the area. There are no alternatives to this candidate, and no candidate has ever been turned down in the 'elections'.

This is not a "different" form of democracy. This is, straight up, not democracy.

Source: Wiki-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Cuba

His behaviors as commandant of La Cabana, in which he ridiculed the concept of jury trials, ordered the deaths of hundreds of dissidents, of whom only a fraction were tied to the security forces of the Batista regime, and his later behaviors towards the Cuban people, when he perceived them as disagreeing with him.






You obviously have no idea how Cuban 'eletions' function. The people are presented with a single candidate, who has been preselected by the Communist party apparatus in the area. There are no alternatives to this candidate, and no candidate has ever been turned down in the 'elections'.

This is not a "different" form of democracy. This is, straight up, not democracy.

Source: Wiki-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Cuba

That's because you you would prefer capitalist dictatorship (minority rule).

che means 'you' in spanish, i don't know who you could've thought i meant.
castro was voted in for that long(even today he's very loved), i'm not sure about term limits...



anarchism must come after socialism. after democracy, when theres no intervention.

oh and for the record i disagree with AP.Highly.

He might´ve gotten confused on the fact that Ché is also used as a respectful term in argentina. Ché Guevara wasn´t the only person having that distinctive on his nickname.

Correction for the soul, ché doesn´t mean you in Spanish, tú means you in Spanish. Ché is an idiom. A regional word used in Argentina to mean you or buddy. But by no means does it means you for all Spanish speakers. Learn to differentiate, sweetheart.

That's because you you would prefer capitalist dictatorship (minority rule).

Looking at modern workforce demographics, your wonderful little proles are now in the minority in Europe, and they have never achieved majority status in the US.

How is this any different from "long live nazism"? Just because a regime survived does not make it any less despicable.

How is this any different from "long live nazism"? Just because a regime survived does not make it any less despicable.
Marxism-Leninism is nothing but the self-determination of the working masses for liberation and political power over bourgeois enemies.

Correction for the soul, ché doesn´t mean you in Spanish, tú means you in Spanish. Ché is an idiom. A regional word used in Argentina to mean you or buddy. But by no means does it means you for all Spanish speakers. Learn to differentiate, sweetheart.

Oooh, burned by expert knowledge... and so politely!

Marxism-Leninism is nothing but the self-determination of the working masses for liberation and political power over bourgeois enemies.

You still haven't answered my question about what you do for a living. Or about what constitutes a "propertied person" which appears to be quite a figure of evil in many of your tirades. Could it be these answers might be self-incriminating? :eek:

Marxism-Leninism is nothing but the self-determination of the working masses for liberation and political power over bourgeois enemies.

But what if those bourgeois enemies can lead the masses better than the masses can lead themselves?

And why, Andaras, the commie-pinko-bastard that you are, refer to workers as 'the masses'? Shouldn't you refer to them as comrades or brothers?

I think maybe you just want to be in charge of the masses...

How is this any different from "long live nazism"? Just because a regime survived does not make it any less despicable.The lack of industrialized mass murder mechanisms makes communism less despicable.

I'm never going to be able to wrap my head around the appropriate use of "sein" words in these situations...
The other solution would have been:
"Er hat keine Idee, wie man deutsche oder französische Wörter benutzt."
Either way it's important to remember that adjectives never get capitalized in German, even if they're derived from ethnicities and nationalities.

ché doesn´t mean you in Spanish,
*Snip
Ché is an idiom. A regional word used in Argentina to mean you or buddy.

[smartarse remark]Its a fucking paradox!!! WERE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!![/smartarse remark]

i was tired and couldn't be bothered explaining, the way i know it(i could be wrong) its a freindly term, sorta like 'hey you'.

Marxism-Leninism is nothing but the self-determination of the working masses for liberation and political power over bourgeois enemies.

Well then, congratulations. It has been achieved. I am working mass, i am free and i have political power (i can vote).

Because, Andaras, welcome to the reality, in nowadays class is obsolete term, because in a way workers are owners (of production means).

For example, myself - I am worker (financial consultant), I get paid a salary. Am I the working class?! However, the result of my work comes from my knwoledge, education, experience, which are my own. Hence, I own means of production. Am i a bourgeois? My employer provides other stuff (offices, legal entity, brand name, etc.) which so to say adds value to my produced services (and this added value is reflected in bih salary/income of my boss). Is he bourgeois enemy?

Because actually me and owner of the company i work for, we both receive 'salaries' for our work. Which is market price for our services. We both own our means of production. And take into account that in all developed countries most of GDP is services. I.e., produced by people's own means of production :)

...but for the vast majority of the time the human species has existed on the planet, classless foraging societies have been the dominant social mode.

Even in your soi-distant "classless foraging societies", there was still someone on top and someone on the bottom. There was still a chief, or a shaman, or a Grand High Poobah who received benefits that the common run did not, even if that benefit was only a closer seat to the fire, or first crack at the women.

If you have a hierarchy, what you do not have is a classless society. To achieve a truly classless society, you have to make everyone exactly equal in every way, and the only way to do that, is to make everyone exactly the same in every way.(see 'Harrison Bergeron' or 'Anthem', or really, anything by Ayn Rand.)

You misunderstand the meaning of class. Class is intitutional, being the village Big Man is not. He rules by respect, not through force or institutional legitimacy.

Class is about your relationship to the means of production. The chief is of the same class as everyone in his tribe because he must do the same types of work as everyone else. He doesn't own the land the tribe hunts and gathers from. No one does. All is held in common, therefore there are no classes based upon property ownership.

Marxism-Leninism is nothing but the self-determination of the working masses for liberation and political power over bourgeois enemies.

My grandfather was there for the Russian Revolution, and it's bloody aftermath. He finally escaped in the 1930's. Some of his family didn't.
Having lived with Marxism-Leninism, he described it in somewhat different, and more accurate, terms.

Major hint: When a government does not let its citizens leave freely if they wish to, it is a sign that something is VERY wrong. On the other hand, when a emigration is a right, and yet people are not leaving, it's a sign that something is good.

[smartarse remark]Its a fucking paradox!!! WERE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!![/smartarse remark]

i was tired and couldn't be bothered explaining, the way i know it(i could be wrong) its a freindly term, sorta like 'hey you'.

I just corrected you on the tiny detail that, if you go for example to Colombia, and you call someone ché, you might not get the same response you can get in Argentina, Chile or Uruguay. ¨Tú¨ will serve you way better. As for Ché Guevara, well, the whole world knows him and in your country there´s a little pub called Fidel´s, that perhaps is your reference to Ernesto Ché Guevara. And that, of course, when in Spanish speaking countries, do call things and people by their proper names. It´ll save you hours and hours of total embarrassment.;)

How is this any different from "long live nazism"? Just because a regime survived does not make it any less despicable.

GODWIN'S LAW. /THREAD.

Even in your soi-distant "classless foraging societies", there was still someone on top and someone on the bottom. There was still a chief, or a shaman, or a Grand High Poobah who received benefits that the common run did not, even if that benefit was only a closer seat to the fire, or first crack at the women.

This is why we need more matriarchies. What's good enough for bonobos is good enough for us.

You misunderstand the meaning of class...All is held in common, therefore there are no classes based upon property ownership.

One of us does, but I'm pretty sure it's not me. Yeah, if everything is held in common(and that's a big if)then you have no class structure based on property ownership. There are a plenitude of other ways to construct a class structure, though.

In the Stone-Age hunter-gather type of society Soheran referenced(or really, any other type of society humanity has ever come up with)you're still going to have some kind of hierarchical authority structure, and once you have that, like I said, you no longer have a classless society.

The lack of industrialized mass murder mechanisms makes communism less despicable.


Ahh now I get it

Because the victims of the so called communist state were individually shot in the back of the head instead of being crowded into gas chambers and killed, that somehow makes the communist state better

I read it. It was interesting. And Lenin was a very interesting individual.

Happy Birthday to Lenin. I'll toast to him as only a class traitor can. With orange juice purchased using money I paid for with the labor I was exploited into giving the capitalist oppressors. Ah, sweet juice.

Question: How come the mods don't punish users for trolling anymore?

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/rotflol.gif

Do you ever run out of smileys? :p

Question: How come the mods don’t punish users for trolling anymore?
Who’s trolling?

Andaras ain’t.

Do you ever run out of smileys? :p

He never does. Dyakovo has a bottomless pit of smileys.

On another note:
Can AP really feel so strongly about a regime he never knew or has never known? I was just curious.

That's because you you would prefer capitalist dictatorship (minority rule).

:confused:

Do you ever run out of smileys? :p
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/19667.gif
Nope, anytime I see a smiley I like I save it...

It's kind of like Nanatsu and LOLcatz...

Can AP really feel so strongly about a regime he never knew or has never known? I was just curious.

Apparently he can.

Apparently he can.

Yeah, and it makes it doubly sad to defend something of which you have no prior knowledge but the one you get from reading about it.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/19667.gif
Nope, anytime I see a smiley I like I save it...

It's kind of like Nanatsu and LOLcatz...

http://geekadelphia.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/ccat.jpg

http://geekadelphia.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/ccat.jpg

Mine is better...
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Cc-beams.gif
Its got lasers...

Ahh now I get it

Because the victims of the so called communist state were individually shot in the back of the head instead of being crowded into gas chambers and killed, that somehow makes the communist state better

Plus, at least in China, the state doesn't even have to pay for the method of killing those it wants to kill. Though theoretically the citizens of the communist state wouldn't have any money to pay the state with, so this really shouldn't be able to work.

Mine is better...
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Cc-beams.gif
Its got lasers...

mah one's (http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/02/08/lasers-charged/) got a box on it's head.
and i got magic cat (http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/02/09/cast-magic-missile/).

mah one's (http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/02/08/lasers-charged/) got a box on it's head.
and i http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/1161363562249.jpg.

I like the magic cat...

I like the magic cat...

You and MHiJ are just jelouse, because I´m the Queen of LOL Catz.

You and MHiJ are just jelouse, because I´m the Queen of LOL Catz.

wut? (http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/02/17/excuse-me-2/)

wut? (http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/02/17/excuse-me-2/)

http://luxton.blogware.com/0706/seriosekitten.jpg

http://luxton.blogware.com/0706/seriosekitten.jpg

well. (http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/02/19/not-listening/)
I'm being perfectly, serious. (http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/02/22/sensei/)

well. (http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/02/19/not-listening/)
I'm being perfectly, serious. (http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/02/22/sensei/)

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b33/TrespassersW/CatThread.jpg

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b33/TrespassersW/CatThread.jpg

the thread's gone off the rails! (http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/02/23/oh-noes/)

the thread's gone off the rails! (http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/02/23/oh-noes/)

It´s true (http://roguesgallerytx.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/ohnoes.jpeg)!

seriously guys, start your own thread.

the thread's gone off the rails!http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/ohnoes.jpg]

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/threadjack.gif

It´s true (http://roguesgallerytx.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/ohnoes.jpeg)!

well i think things have gotta change. (http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/02/25/gonna-eat-ur-fambly/)

well i think things have gotta change. (http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/02/25/gonna-eat-ur-fambly/)

NEVER!!!
This (http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/128348080080156250urinsolencedi.jpg)!

seriously guys, start your own thread.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/19667.gif

On topic, at least sort of...
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/happylenin.gifhttp://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/happylenin.gifhttp://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/happylenin.gifhttp://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/happylenin.gifhttp://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/happylenin.gifhttp://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/happylenin.gifhttp://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/happylenin.gifhttp://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/happylenin.gifhttp://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/happylenin.gif

:eek:

Take your lolcats and be gone spammers!

seriously guys, start your own thread.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/threadjack.gif

what can i do though (http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/02/25/gonna-eat-ur-fambly/)? i'm only one person.

:eek:

Take your lolcats and be gone spammers!

Your insolence in calling LOL Catz spam will not go unpunished.
Hmph (http://www.doublespiral.org/tasteless/graphics/21/angry_cat.jpg)!

Back to topic.
Long live Something other than Marxism-Leninism!!

what can i do though (http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/02/25/gonna-eat-ur-fambly/)? i'm only one person.

And it takes two to tango... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEx6I05r2Vo)

*tangos with MHiJ*

I don't know what you are going to do, but one thing you could do is to start a new thread. And that picture had nothing to do with either your post or mine. Good job.

I don't know what you are going to do, but one thing you could do is to start a new thread. And that picture had nothing to do with either your post or mine. Good job.

:confused:

I don't know what you are going to do, but one thing you could do is to start a new thread. And that picture had nothing to do with either your post or mine. Good job.
Ignores Honsria because... \/
And it takes two to tango... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEx6I05r2Vo)

*tangos with MHiJ*
...is to busy tangoing with MHiJ.

Ignores Honsria because... \/

...is to busy tangoing with MHiJ.

*claps from the sides*

Your insolence in calling LOL Catz spam will not go unpunished.
Hmph (http://www.doublespiral.org/tasteless/graphics/21/angry_cat.jpg)!
Back to topic.
Long live Something other than Marxism-Leninism!!
But (http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/02/28/one-does-not-simply-tank-cat-into-mordor/) and it's too dangerous! we need a plan.

And it takes two to tango... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEx6I05r2Vo)

*tangos with MHiJ*

oh my, Dyakovo, i had no idea you were so inclined.:eek:
and the page is broken!
okay okay, i'll go back to the topic, Communism under Lenin and Marxist ideals does not work, because they're economically and categorically deterministic. That is to say, it relies too heavily on economy and class to really make a good government, there's far more to how a country is run than it's policy toward class mobility.

oh my, Dyakovo, i had no idea you were so inclined.:eek:
Yes, I'm secretly into tangoing...
okay okay, i'll go back to the topic, Communism under Lenin and Marxist ideals does not work, because they're economically and categorically deterministic. That is to say, it relies too heavily on economy and class to really make a good government, there's far more to how a country is run than it's policy toward class mobility.

Agreed

But (http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/02/28/one-does-not-simply-tank-cat-into-mordor/) and it's too dangerous! we need a plan.

You´re right (http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/mne0009l.jpg). We do need a plan. To the Strategizing Table!!!

Yes, I'm secretly into tangoing...


Agreed
huh? (http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/03/01/whut/)
you agree with me?
You´re right (http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/mne0009l.jpg). We do need a plan. To the Strategizing Table!!!

aha, first off we need, an offering to the Gods, i suggest we... (http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/03/01/lets-do-this/)

huh? (http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/03/01/whut/)
you agree with me?


aha, first off we need, an offering to the Gods, i suggest we... (http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/03/01/lets-do-this/)

Or this (http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/ada/lowres/adan13l.jpg).

huh? (http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/03/01/whut/)
you agree with me?

What the hell was I thinking?!?
;)

Or this (http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/ada/lowres/adan13l.jpg).

And maybe try this (http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/03/06/invisible-pogostick/)too.

What the hell was I thinking?!?
;)

hey did you know. (http://icanhascheezburger.com/2007/03/07/in-canada-cats-grow-on-trees/)
yeah that says something about the neighbours the US has, and it thinks it's so high and mighty hah!

too bad that dickwad Stalin became president instead of Trotsky. if Trotsky was the 2nd president of the U.S.S.R., WWII would have been won earlier & Communism would'nt be confused with Fascism & the extreme Right Wing today (my 7th grade health teacher thought Saudi Arabia was a Communist State).

aside from that, Russia would probably have had Democratic Elections much earlier on.

also unfortunately (I think), Communism forst took hold in Russia, a state full of Natural Recources, Wealth, & people too lazy to use said Natural Recources & wealth for a better purpose than making the Tsar's life even more Luxurious. After that, the Soviet Government (Late & Post-Lenin, by the way) diverted most of the money to the Red Army instead of the Economy.

too bad that dickwad Stalin became president instead of Trotsky. if Trotsky was the 2nd president of the U.S.S.R., WWII would have been won earlier & Communism would'nt be confused with Fascism & the extreme Right Wing today (my 7th grade health teacher thought Saudi Arabia was a Communist State).
Wow, just wow. :(
also unfortunately (I think), Communism forst took hold in Russia, a state full of Natural Recources, Wealth, & people too lazy to use said Natural Recources & wealth for a better purpose than making the Tsar's life even more Luxurious. After that, the Soviet Government (Late & Post-Lenin, by the way) diverted most of the money to the Red Army instead of the Economy.

A major factor in the success of the Bolshevik revolution was the fact that Никола́й II (Czar Nicholas II) was an incompetent. The biggest blunder was his handing of the Russo-Japanese war.

Wow, just wow. :(


A major factor in the success of the Bolshevik revolution was the fact that Никола́й II (Czar Nicholas II) was an incompetent. The biggest blunder was his handing of the Russo-Japanese war.

His daughters and his son were extremely handsome. Pity they were killed too. That´s about all the good Czar Nicholas did, his kids.:D

Originally Posted by Dyakovo
Wow, just wow. :(


that a response to what I said about stalin, trotsky, or my 7th grade health teacher?

i apologize for the crappy HTML thing... i dont do forums much so i have almost no idea how to do something like "originaly posted by somerandomfuckerrrrrr"

i apologize for the crappy HTML thing... i dont do forums much so i have almost no idea how to do something like "originaly posted by somerandomfuckerrrrrr"Click one of the quote buttons at the bottom right of every post.

Ahh now I get it

Because the victims of the so called communist state were individually shot in the back of the head instead of being crowded into gas chambers and killed, that somehow makes the communist state better

Marxist leninism is not about extermination like nazism.

but getting back on topic

Mine is better...

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...i/Cc-beams.gif
Its got lasers...

no matter http://i159.photobucket.com/albums/t154/Spoofopolis/force_field1.jpg

Originally Posted by Dyakovo
Wow, just wow. :(


that a response to what I said about stalin, trotsky, or my 7th grade health teacher?

7th grade health teacher...

Marxist leninism is not about extermination like nazism.



Thats funny, 20 million people would disagree with you on that point*

El-Presidente Boris

*Or would do if marxism-leninism had'nt killed them

Thats funny, 20 million people would disagree with you on that point*

El-Presidente Boris

*Or would do if marxism-leninism had'nt killed them
OH great, more bourgeois propaganda with absolutely NO evidence, please go and read McCarthy and Hitler - after all that's where your 'opinions' come from.

OH great, more bourgeois propaganda with absolutely NO evidence, please go and read McCarthy and Hitler - after all that's where your 'opinions' come from.

AP, I´m collecting NSGers. Can I collect you too? You´re a funny Commie and you would add to my collection. What do you say?:D

I wonder if Andaras isn't portuguese....The portuguese communist party is still one of the few that is so pro-Stalin. If he's not he would feel like home in here.

I wonder if Andaras isn't portuguese....The portuguese communist party is still one of the few that is so pro-Stalin. If he's not he would feel like home in here.
There's plenty actually, it's called Anti-Revisionism.

OH great, more bourgeois propaganda with absolutely NO evidence, please go and read McCarthy and Hitler - after all that's where your 'opinions' come from.

GODWIN'S LAW. /THREAD.

What, like the third time? /The damn thread already.

GODWIN'S LAW. /THREAD.

What, like the third time? /The damn thread already.

Godwin is an petty escapist line peddled by people who don't like to debate facts. And the fact is that in 1935, Dr. Ewald Ammende published a book, Muss Russland hungern (1936 English title: Human Life in Russia) Its sources: the German Nazi press, the Italian fascist press, the Ukrainian émigré press and `travelers' and `experts', cited with no details. He published photos that he claimed `are among the most important sources for the actual facts of the Russian position'.

There are also photos belonging to Dr. Ditloff, who was until August 1933 Director of the German Government Agricultural Concession --- Drusag in the North Caucasus. Ditloff claimed to have taken the photos in the summer of 1933 `and they demonstrate the conditions ... (in) the Hunger Zone'.

Given that he was by then a civil servant of the Nazi government, how could Ditloff have freely moved from the Caucasus to the Ukraine to hunt pictures? Among Ditloff's photos, seven, including that of the `frog-like' child, had also been published by Walker. Another photo presented two skeletal-like boys, symbols of the 1933 Ukrainian famine. The same picture was shown in Peter Ustinov's televised series Russia: it comes from a documentary film about the 1922 Russian famine! Another of Ammende's photos was published by the Nazi paper Volkischer Beobachter, dated August 18, 1933. This photo was also identified among books dating back to 1922.

Ammende had worked in the Volga region in 1913. During the 1917--1918 Civil War, he had held positions in the pro-German counter-revolutionary governments of Estonia and Latvia. Then he worked in liaison with the Skoropadsky government set up by the German army in the Ukraine in March 1918. He claimed to have participated in the humanitarian aid campaigns during the 1921--1922 Russian famine, hence his familiarity with the photos of the period. For years, Ammende served as General Secretary of the so-called European Nationalities Congress, close to the Nazi Party, which included regrouped émigrés from the Soviet Union. At the end of 1933, Ammende was appointed Honorary Secretary of the Interconfessional and International Relief Committee for the Russian Famine Areas, which was led by the pro-fascist Cardinal Innitzer of Vienna. Ammende was therefore closely tied to the Nazi anti-Soviet campaign.

When Reagan started up his anti-Communist crusade at the beginning of the eighties, Professor James E. Mace of Harvard University thought it opportune to re-edit and re-publish Ammende's book under the title Human Life in Russia. That was in 1984. So all the Nazi lies and the fake photographic evidence, including Walker's pseudo-reporting on the Ukraine, were granted the `academic respectability' associated with the Harvard name.

The preceding year, far-right Ukrainian émigrés in the U.S. published The Great Famine in Ukraine: The Unknown Holocaust. Douglas Tottle was able to check that the photos in this book dated to 1921--1922. Hence the photo on the cover comes from Dr. F. Nansen's International Committee for Russian Relief publication Information 22, Geneva, April 30, 1922, p. 6!

Neo-Nazi revisionism around the world `revises' history to justify, above all, the barbaric crimes of fascism against Communists and the Soviet Union. First, it denies the crimes that they themselves committed against the Jews. Neo-Nazis deny the existence of extermination camps where millions of Jews were slaughtered. They then invent `holocausts', supposedly perpetrated by Communists and by Comrade Stalin. With this lie, they justify the bestial crimes that the Nazis committed in the Soviet Union. For this, revisionism at the service of the anti-Communist struggle, they receive the full support of Reagan, Bush, Thatcher and company.

says: "Happy birthday man" and throws a hash cookie on lenins mummy.
"Hope you find some rest with all the graverobbers around here."

Godwin is an petty escapist line peddled by people who don't like to debate facts.

Reductio ad Hitlerum, also argumentum ad Hitlerum, or reductio (or argumentum) ad Nazium – dog Latin for "reduction (or argument) to Hitler (or the Nazis)" – is a modern fallacy in logic.

Your argument fails.

Godwin's Law.

/Thread.

Your argument fails.

Godwin's Law.

/Thread.

I'm getting tired of the Godwin's Law reply.:rolleyes:

I'm getting tired of the Godwin's Law reply.:rolleyes:

I'm the Godwin's Law nazi.

I'm the Godwin's Law nazi.

And I'm your Winston Churchill, beyotch.

And I'm your Winston Churchill, beyotch.
And I'm your Comrade Stalin.








LOOK, you guys. Godwin's Law is as overused as the reduction to Hitler. Also, this is a good time to talk about how logical fallacies. It is ironic that many arguments charging fallacy are themselves either fallacious or undeveloped. So in this thread, and elsewhere, you can't just say "OMG, Godwin's Law. /thread." You have to show (prove) that the post to which the Law is being applied actually improperly uses parallels to Hitler or Nazism. Same goes for the "argument from authority." An argument from authority is not a fallacious argument necessarily. An argument from misplaced authority is. According to Jerry Springer, "those who allege the use of logical fallacies in the arguments of their opponents have the burden of proof." Clearly, Jerry Springer is right.

LOOK, you guys. Godwin's Law is as overused as the reduction to Hitler. Also, this is a good time to talk about how logical fallacies. It is ironic that many arguments charging fallacy are themselves either fallacious or undeveloped. So in this thread, and elsewhere, you can't just say "OMG, Godwin's Law. /thread." You have to show (prove) that the post to which the Law is being applied actually improperly uses parallels to Hitler or Nazism. Same goes for the "argument from authority." An argument from authority is not a fallacious argument necessarily. An argument from misplaced authority is. According to Jerry Springer, "those who allege the use of logical fallacies in the arguments of their opponents have the burden of proof." Clearly, Jerry Springer is right.

re: Godwin's Law.

That has been a frequent bug bear for me (not that I am in the habit of comparing people to Nazis). To me is has always been a simple observation of (online) debates. Rather then a gambit to claim a victory. Futhermore, it is just cheap.

re: the second part.

That even has its own wiki page*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy







*unlike, say, "wittertainment"

:cool: I say i support any government that values the poor working man over the rich, tycoon.

It is hypocritical to place greater value on the poor working man and less value on the rich tycoon, even moreso in defense of socialism. Socialism tends to prey upon, and is indeed motivated and defined by, the rich tycoon and the personal ownership which ideally creates, and perpetuates, the rich tycoon.

A blank face in the mass which ultimately is collective, is nothing and of no value to the collective itself. In contrast, the rich and non-collective prey has great identity and necessity to the collective.

The rich and private give drive and reason to the poor and collective, for the ultimate goal of all being poor and collective (of course, at that point the term poor has no meaning, and is thus irrelevant). If everyone is in the same boat, so to speak, fine..but at least acknowledge the importance of your driving reason, that you value your prey, the rich tycoon, more-so than the poor working man.