NationStates Jolt Archive

It seems that the psychics in the UK are upset over a new law that repeals the Fraudulent Mediums Act of 1951 and replaces it with a new consumer protection law. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080418/od_nm/britain_psychic_dc_3

One of the psychics. stated, ""By repealing the Act, the onus will go round the other way and we will have to prove we are genuine," McEntee-Taylor told Reuters. "No other religion has to do that."

So, my questions are: Do you believe in psychics? Are they a religion.

IMHO I think there are some people who are truly psychics, but there are a lot of frauds out there. I don't believe they are a religion as Physics can hold many different religious beliefs.

Why are you saying, "Physics"? :confused:

I think there may be a small but recurrent typo in your post. You might want to check that out.

It seems that the Physics in the UK are upset over a new law that repeals the Fraudulent Mediums Act of 1951 and replaces it with a new consumer protection law. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080418/od_nm/britain_psychic_dc_3

One of the Physics stated, ""By repealing the Act, the onus will go round the other way and we will have to prove we are genuine," McEntee-Taylor told Reuters. "No other religion has to do that."

So, my questions are: Do you believe in Physics? Are they a religion.

IMHO I think there are some people who are truly Physics, but there are a lot of frauds out there. I don't believe they are a religion as Physics can hold many different religious beliefs.

whut?

I believe in thaumatology, not your "physics".

EDIT: Ooops, you mean Psychics...

No sympathy whatsoever. My main issue with the buggers is the fact that was a massive increase of them after WWI... damn near all liars cashing in on the loss of others.

We also recently got an amazing business card through our post box recently, some guy claiming he was a professor as well as a medium, clairvoyent, magician, damn near everything under the sun.

Awesome!

We've been tempting to prank call the bastard a fair few times, but to be honest, it strikes me that that person has a fair few issues to spout that kind of crap.

I believe in thaumatology, not your "physics".

How about phrenology? Works wonders.

Fredian slip?

No, physics is all make-believe

Physics != psychics. Writing too much of a demand, too, it would seem.

Why are you saying, "Physics"? :confused:

Because I spelled it wrong. :mad:(at me)

Given the ritual that surrounds this "psyeants", I'd say it qualifies as a religion. Give it tax exemptions.

when I was a kid I went to physics camp and they made us measure the time between a sound and the echo to try to figure out how far away a wall was and it was fun! I believe in physics! It should be a religion!

*ignores OP's real meaning*

I've seen "psychics", but they can't be called a religion, at least not an organised one.

To say I believe in psychics...meh, I don't rule out the possibility, but I really wouldn't care about them if they did exist.

They have a point, why are they being singled out?

How about phrenology? Works wonders.
I mean to get my hands on one of those phrenology skull models. Fucking awesome ornaments.

Reverse phrenology is what I put my money on.

I think there may be a small but recurrent typo in your post. You might want to check that out.

Corrected except for the header which I can not correct. Need help from the mods for that. I'm :mad: at me. ...takes another sip of whiskey and water...

I went to a Jon Edward reading (the normally incredibly expensive tickets were free and you do these things to keep your girlfriend happy)and i found it to be third rate human theater.

...takes another sip of whiskey and water...

:D I do not imagine this will help.

They have a point, why are they being singled out?
Because they’re more overt in how they generate money?

That, and all spiritual endeavours that aren't part of a major organised religion take more flak than their institutionalised 'cousins'.

I went to a Jon Edward reading (the tickets were free and you do these things to keep your girlfriend happy)and i found it to be third rate human theater.

I find the same with church, in fact it's downright boring, no wonder they can't sell tickets and have to beg at the end instead.

I've seen "psychics", but they can't be called a religion, at least not an organised one.

To say I believe in psychics...meh, I don't rule out the possibility, but I really wouldn't care about them if they did exist.

what if psychics are just really really really observant? also, does a religion have to be organized to be a religion? I mean, organization kinda ruins a religion based on personal knowledge and stuff right?

Because they’re more overt in how they generate money?

This is a good point I hadn't thought of, yes, money needs to be paid upfront.

This is a good point I hadn't thought of, yes, money needs to be paid upfront.

But if they are wrong, how will you get a refund?

But if they are wrong, how will you get a refund?

I'd ask the same of religion.

Because I spelled it wrong. :mad:(at me)
Kinda reminds me of the "Doug-nut Dan" strip of Beetle Bailey.
:)

But if they are wrong, how will you get a refund?
If this legislation goes through, and if you can prove that you were a victim of fraudulent ‘mediums’ or whatever, I imagine you’d be able to take the moeny back off of the vendor. In the UK, at least.

It’s a tad harder getting a refund for failure to deliver life after death.

Fredian slip?
What's the mother with all you peoples' spelling? :mad:

I mean to get my hands on one of those phrenology skull models. Fucking awesome ornaments.Seconded.

Reverse phrenology is what I put my money on.
As in, against the skull from the inside?

But if they are wrong, how will you get a refund?
you don't. Psychic readings are "for entertainment only" they don't have to be right.

I was a phone psychic for a hotline once. I just had to keep them on the phone long enough to get past the first 5 minutes when my rate went up......I could keep them on the phone for an hour if I wanted. Lonely, lonely people call the psychic line, half the time I didn't even tell them anything.

"I can see that you are a very caring person, but sometimes others don't quite understand you"
<snip 45 minutes of whining about their parents>
"I can see that you often feel conflict in your family relationships, I also see you long for love and understanding from a romantic partner"
<snip 30 minutes about how they can't get laid>

What’s the mother with all you peoples’ spelling? :mad:
It’s redickulous.

Psychics aren't a religion no matter which way you slice it.

They're either con-artists or gifted. They are not promoting a faith-based system devised to perpetrate a set of morals or beliefs through rituals and worship.

Do I think they should be illegal? Nah. Everyone's got to make a living, and if people are willing to pay, it's their money.

By and by, I went to this famous psychic in Japan (don't remember her name... but the family I was staying with swore by her, and wanted me to come along for their yearly reading), and she told me I had an older gentleman ghost watching over me, and I should work with flowers to heal people. Hm.

They are not promoting a faith-based system devised to perpetrate a set of morals or beliefs through rituals and worship.
is this the only definition of religion?

Do I think they should be illegal? Nah. Everyone’s got to make a living, and if people are willing to pay, it’s their money.
The proposed legislation isn’t trying to make psychic readings illegal, it’s trying to get those who charge money for accurate predictions to be held to account for their claims.

If you pay me to whitewash your fence, you’d expect me to do the job I’ve been given money for. Why should people who get paid to accurately predict be any different?

you don't. Psychic readings are "for entertainment only" they don't have to be right.

I was a phone psychic for a hotline once. I just had to keep them on the phone long enough to get past the first 5 minutes when my rate went up......I could keep them on the phone for an hour if I wanted. Lonely, lonely people call the psychic line, half the time I didn't even tell them anything.

"I can see that you are a very caring person, but sometimes others don't quite understand you"
<snip 45 minutes of whining about their parents>
"I can see that you often feel conflict in your family relationships, I also see you long for love and understanding from a romantic partner"
<snip 30 minutes about how they can't get laid>

Lol, there's something fundamental about humans in that.

Newton, Galileo, Tesla, Hawking, and Einstein are gods. I light candles etched with their names every day. I pray that we may one day be worthy of the knowledge of the Grand Unified Theory.

Oh, psychics. Burn them all.

No, they are liars and cheats. If you're talking about the mind readers and not the scientists that is.

you don't. Psychic readings are "for entertainment only" they don't have to be right.

I was a phone psychic for a hotline once. I just had to keep them on the phone long enough to get past the first 5 minutes when my rate went up......I could keep them on the phone for an hour if I wanted. Lonely, lonely people call the psychic line, half the time I didn't even tell them anything.

"I can see that you are a very caring person, but sometimes others don't quite understand you"
<snip 45 minutes of whining about their parents>
"I can see that you often feel conflict in your family relationships, I also see you long for love and understanding from a romantic partner"
<snip 30 minutes about how they can't get laid>

Wow! I never thought you would do that, but then again I haven't walked in your shoes. All is good though as I know you went to confession, did your penitence, and put a lot of money in the collection plate. :p

Newton, Galileo, Tesla, Hawking, and Einstein are gods. I light candles etched with their names every day. I pray that we may one day be worthy of the knowledge of the Grand Unified Theory.

Oh, psychics. Burn them all.

Wasn't Newton into all this sort of stuff, I think he was.

All is good though as I know you went to confession, did your penitence, and put a lot of money in the collection plate. :p
Intentional irony?

Wasn't Newton into all this sort of stuff, I think he was.
The man was a nut for alchemy, at the very least.

Wow! I never thought you would do that, but then again I haven't walked in your shoes. All is good though as I know you went to confession, did your penitence, and put a lot of money in the collection plate. :p

I was working at a minimum wage job 50 hours a week and still couldn't afford to eat and such, so the opportunity came along to do this during hours I was unable to work at the restaurant, and they paid well, so I did it. I needed food. I figure I was counseling people for cheaper than going to a counselor. People needed reassurance and common sense advice, they didn't care what I said, they wanted someone to whine to. :p

Wasn't Newton into all this sort of stuff, I think he was.

Lo, the prophet Isaac Newton was cursed with blindness of superstition, but the non-existent non-deities of Physics opened his eyes unto the apple. Do not blaspheme his holy name.

Wasn't Newton into all this sort of stuff, I think he was.

Before or after the apple hit him on the head? :p

Newton considered himself to be one of a select group of individuals who were specially chosen by God for the task of understanding Biblical scripture.

John Maynard Keynes, for example, opined that "Newton was not the first of the age of reason, he was the last of the magicians."

Burn him!

I was working at a minimum wage job 50 hours a week and still couldn't afford to eat and such, so the opportunity came along to do this during hours I was unable to work at the restaurant, and they paid well, so I did it. I needed food. I figure I was counseling people for cheaper than going to a counselor. People needed reassurance and common sense advice, they didn't care what I said, they wanted someone to whine to. :p

You probably did more good for them than some ministers, priests, etc. would have done and for a lot less money. Swaggart (sp?), Roberts, Baker, etc. :mad:

is this the only definition of religion?

Well, I just made that one up on the spot. Let's check out good 'ol dictionary.com:

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Mm. Mine's pretty close to this one. Psychics, in their practice of psychiatry (hehe), may perform rituals, but they are not meant as devotionals or expressions of faith.

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects.
There is no one general set of beliefs for psychics. I think that would be their main downfall. While you can have a faith of 1, it's sort of hard to have a religion with just 1 member.

3-5 weren't any more enlightening.

6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience.

Now, this could possibly fit, but I don't think it fits for the psychic as a psychic. Psychiatry (what the heck is the noun for this??) is an occupation, not a religion. This is like saying because a bank auditor is a Buddhist, the job of bank auditing is also Buddhist.


What other sort of definition did you have in mind?

I figure I was counseling people for cheaper than going to a counselor. People needed reassurance and common sense advice, they didn’t care what I said, they wanted someone to whine to. :p
That’s an interesting angle.

It could be like homoeopathy. Although the treatment is (as far as I have seen) complete bullshit, the amount of time spent on patients, especially face-to-face contact, genuinely helps people.

Though I’m sure we can find a way to provide humane counselling without all the supernatural/pseudoscientific nonsense attached.

I wonder if this could be used to challenge Scientology then. I'm sure you pay for their tests and whatever they do to make you one with Xenu.

The proposed legislation isn’t trying to make psychic readings illegal, it’s trying to get those who charge money for accurate predictions to be held to account for their claims.

If you pay me to whitewash your fence, you’d expect me to do the job I’ve been given money for. Why should people who get paid to accurately predict be any different?

Well, I think the psychic occupation is more like that of a stock trader than a fence painter. Painting a fence is not subject to much interpretation or change. Stock trading, however, involves a bit more finesse: either you read the market right, and counsel your client accordingly, or you read it wrong, and lose your client.

This should be the same sort of check and balance with psychics. Accurate readings build a client base; consistently inaccurate readings lose their clients. And those who are just phonies looking for a quick buck (I'm assuming some psychics truly believe in their abilities, whether they are real or not) could just insert the fine print that readings are not guaranteed.

You probably did more good for them than some ministers, priests, etc. would have done and for a lot less money. Swaggart (sp?), Roberts, Baker, etc. :mad:
I don't remember ever even making "predictions" I just told them nice things and gave them advice, like "if he's cheating on you, he's probably not going to be a good daddy so don't have a baby with him"

Well, I just made that one up on the spot. Let's check out good 'ol dictionary.com:

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

Mm. Mine's pretty close to this one. Psychics, in their practice of psychiatry (hehe), may perform rituals, but they are not meant as devotionals or expressions of faith.

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects.
There is no one general set of beliefs for psychics. I think that would be their main downfall. While you can have a faith of 1, it's sort of hard to have a religion with just 1 member.

3-5 weren't any more enlightening.

6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience.

Now, this could possibly fit, but I don't think it fits for the psychic as a psychic. Psychiatry (what the heck is the noun for this??) is an occupation, not a religion. This is like saying because a bank auditor is a Buddhist, the job of bank auditing is also Buddhist.


What other sort of definition did you have in mind?

I don't know, religion is such a personal thing, I'm sure someone has a religion that doesn't fit any of those. I don't want to invalidate someone's faith because it doesn't fit into what I'm familiar with.

That’s an interesting angle.

It could be like homoeopathy. Although the treatment is (as far as I have seen) complete bullshit, the amount of time spent on patients, especially face-to-face contact, genuinely helps people.

Though I’m sure we can find a way to provide humane counselling without all the supernatural/pseudoscientific nonsense attached.
it's for entertainment, that's the service. I go to the circus for the same reason I would go to a palm reader, it's hokey and fun.

it’s for entertainment, that’s the service. I go to the circus for the same reason I would go to a palm reader, it’s hokey and fun.
But some don’t share your perfectly reasonable views.

Those who (regularly) visit mediums or others who claim they can contact the dead, or those who make hugely important decisions on the backs of psychic ‘predictions’.

Then again, part of me questions if we should protect those who wish to believe in such claptrap. I imagine what worries the Spiritual Workers Association so much is that none of their members could prove they weren’t frauds.

Physics are barely one step up the ladder from Indian telemarketers.

But some don’t share your perfectly reasonable views.

Those who (regularly) visit mediums or others who claim they can contact the dead, or those who make hugely important decisions on the backs of psychic ‘predictions’.

Then again, part of me questions if we should protect those who wish to believe in such claptrap. I imagine what worries the Spiritual Workers Association so much is that none of their members could prove they weren’t frauds.

you can't prove a psychic isn't a fraud, any more than you can prove they are. it's easier to say it's for entertainment.

*gazes deeply into crystal ball*

I predict that nothing will come of this.

Crap! Am I in trouble now for practicing without a license?

Psychics are scum, I have no interest in their self-promoting delusions. Frankly, if they are psychic they should just go get a job and make themselves rich being all psychic, and shut the fuck up about their unfair advantage.

Now, to the subject which has really captured my attention: yes, I believe in Physics and all other branches of science. I was persuaded to the scientific method at a young age (just as religious believers are often so inculcated) and it's simply too hard to abandon that now.

And yes, there is a very serious danger that in the future Science will be a religion, with Physics and Maths as the High Church and all the humanities as the Lay Church.

Religion is clinging to Faith now. Believing because it feels good.

In the vast and humbling field of Science, there is one comforting simplicity: the Scientific Method. For the vast majority of humanity, Science is just too hard ... rather like devotion really. But they'll go forth and kill for the simple truth they can grasp.

Science is building a new faith, which will rule us and slaughter us for centuries to come. Long long after we stop doing science. So it goes.

Psychics are scum, I have no interest in their self-promoting delusions. Frankly, if they are psychic they should just go get a job and make themselves rich being all psychic, and shut the fuck up about their unfair advantage.

Now, to the subject which has really captured my attention: yes, I believe in Physics and all other branches of science. I was persuaded to the scientific method at a young age (just as religious believers are often so inculcated) and it's simply too hard to abandon that now.

And yes, there is a very serious danger that in the future Science will be a religion, with Physics and Maths as the High Church and all the humanities as the Lay Church.

Religion is clinging to Faith now. Believing because it feels good.

In the vast and humbling field of Science, there is one comforting simplicity: the Scientific Method. For the vast majority of humanity, Science is just too hard ... rather like devotion really. But they'll go forth and kill for the simple truth they can grasp.

Science is building a new faith, which will rule us and slaughter us for centuries to come. Long long after we stop doing science. So it goes.

Not Psychics, dude, it's Physics !!! ;)

Not Psychics, dude, it's Physics !!! ;)

I think we're reading off the same page.

*checks language settings on browser*

EN(Gibber) ... I think that's correct.

Yep, I'm quite certain about it. Psychics are Psychotic Females, Physics are big brains which thingk they have a body. Really quite different beings, though probably dynamite in bed.

EDIT: I'll address the OP if the thread makes it to 150 posts. Until then, I will mercilessly smite thee Celtlund with hijacks and spammin'.

Whether this be foolishness or wit, to confuse Physics with Psychics ... it gets my goat.

psychics are frauds. the bigger they are the more fraudulently they operate.

however

my son can read tarot cards with uncanny accuracy. he reads them for people he doesnt know, he barely looks at them while reading and only asks if he was accurate after he is done.

more often than not he hit their situation solid on.

It seems that the psychics in the UK are upset over a new law that repeals the Fraudulent Mediums Act of 1951 and replaces it with a new consumer protection law. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080418/od_nm/britain_psychic_dc_3


I can't believe they didn't see that coming.

But some don’t share your perfectly reasonable views.

Those who (regularly) visit mediums or others who claim they can contact the dead, or those who make hugely important decisions on the backs of psychic ‘predictions’.

Then again, part of me questions if we should protect those who wish to believe in such claptrap. I imagine what worries the Spiritual Workers Association so much is that none of their members could prove they weren’t frauds.

Didn't Hitler use them? What other modern day leader has used them? Talk about hugely important decisions.

I think we're reading off the same page.

*checks language settings on browser*

EN(Gibber) ... I think that's correct.

Isn't it fun when the OP makes an error, goes back with humility (or humiliation) and corrects all but the title, then those who come in late don't read the OP or the first few posts. Look at the havoc I have managed to create. :p

Ha! This is fantastic!

They think skeptics might bring malicious prosecutions to force spiritualists to prove in court that they can heal people, see into the future or talk to the dead.

That sounds like a successful prediction to me. :p


With the changes expected to come into force next month, spiritualists have faced a barrage of headlines gleefully suggesting that they should have seen it coming.

Can't see a problem with that...


But many don't see the funny side. They say the new rules will shift the responsibility of proving they are not frauds from prosecutors and onto them.

"By repealing the Act, the onus will go round the other way and we will have to prove we are genuine," McEntee-Taylor told Reuters. "No other religion has to do that."

Oh come on, how hard can it be? If they claim that they can predict the future then all they need to do is write to the court the day before an accusation is filed, detailing the name of the person who filed the complaint, the precise wording of the complaint, the name of the person reading their letter and the time at which it's being read. Simple.

If these idiots were genuine (or even believed that they were genuine...) they'd jump at the opportunity to prove their abilities in court and have an official endorsement from the government to wave at sceptics. They're frauds and they know it.

Incidentally, they're not being singled out: I remember a church being fined not long ago for putting adverts out claiming that they could perform miraculous healing.

psychics are frauds. the bigger they are the more fraudulently they operate.

however

my son can read tarot cards with uncanny accuracy. he reads them for people he doesnt know, he barely looks at them while reading and only asks if he was accurate after he is done.

more often than not he hit their situation solid on.

So your son is a fraud or not a psychic?

what if psychics are just really really really observant? also, does a religion have to be organized to be a religion? I mean, organization kinda ruins a religion based on personal knowledge and stuff right?

If it's not organised in some way, then it's not a religion, it's personnal beliefs and nothing more. That's the way I see it anyways.

Also, your first sentence is why I wouldn't care about psychics. They basically couldn't prove they exist.

Didn't Hitler use them? What other modern day leader has used them? Talk about hugely important decisions.

Ronald Reagan consulted a psychic I think; Tony Blair got roped into all kinds of new-age nonsense by his wife.

So your son is a fraud or not a psychic?

he makes no claims of psychic abilities. he just reads the cards.

I can't believe they didn't see that coming.

:D Good, very good. Here are some cookies for that.

Incidentally, they're not being singled out: I remember a church being fined not long ago for putting adverts out claiming that they could perform miraculous healing.

You mean they cant? :eek: Obviously they are not connected to some telavangelists in the US or Oral Roberts.

he makes no claims of psychic abilities. he just reads the cards.

He probably has some psychic abilities then. Most people who do don't advertise it. Those who advertise their ability, and charge money for it, are usually frauds. I know my wife, one son, and I have some psychic ability but it is very limited and with one exception never use it to predict the future.

he makes no claims of psychic abilities. he just reads the cards.

This might not be relevant but I'm very lucky. It's not a perception thing, everyone says I'm extraordinarily lucky.

In some senses, I feel that someone has to be - in an infinite amount of chance, someone will have greater chance than others.

I may stop being lucky tomorrow, there's an equal chance of that but so far in life I've remained very lucky - I may not win jackpots but in every day matters, I'm simply lucky.

I sometimes think this of psychics, or any person to whom a certain fate seems to be ascribed, chances are that someone has to, we're not all 50/50 people.

That's simply the average, not the individual.

Ronald Reagan consulted a psychic I think; Tony Blair got roped into all kinds of political nonsense by his master, Bush.
Fixed.
Oh, and Reagan was unhealthily fixated on the idea of "Armageddon" (what a nincompoop), so the visage i keep getting of that scenario is not unlike the startlingly accurate Genesis video.

... the startlingly accurate Genesis video.God made a video of what he did in the beginning ?? :eek: :eek:




;)

God made a video of what he did in the beginning ?? :eek: :eek:

lol

If they are really psychics, shouldn't they have protested this change in the law before it was proposed?

God made a video of what he did in the beginning ?? :eek: :eek:




;)
Didn't Soliechunn have a sig about that? :p

you can’t prove a psychic isn’t a fraud, any more than you can prove they are.
Perhaps not with 100% certainty (but then, what can you prove with 100% certainty?), but you can certainly see whether or not a supposed psychic’s predictions are consistently accurate or not.

Perhaps not with 100% certainty (but then, what can you prove with 100% certainty?), but you can certainly see whether or not a supposed psychic’s predictions are consistently accurate or not.

No, you can't.

Mainly because they are very vague and can be interpreted in many ways, much like the crazy metaphorical babblings of mad men. A psychic that says "You'll earn 223 dollars on march 12th, from a lottery contest" would have to be retarded (or omniscient).

Seconded.

As in, against the skull from the inside?

No, it's a concept that I came across via Pratchett. Basically, phrenology reckons that the shape of the skull determines your personality, so reverse phrenology reckons that you should be able to modify their personality by reshaping the skull. Generally with a hammer.

No, it's a concept that I came across via Pratchett. Basically, phrenology reckons that the shape of the skull determines your personality, so reverse phrenology reckons that you should be able to modify their personality by reshaping the skull. Generally with a hammer.

:eek:

I know some people that need an attitude adjustment. Would that really work? :cool:

:eek:

I know some people that need an attitude adjustment. Would that really work? :cool:

Its worth a shot. ;)
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/HammerVSmilie.gif

:eek:

I know some people that need an attitude adjustment. Would that really work? :cool:

No, it's complete bunk. Just like phrenology.

No, it's complete bunk. Just like phrenology.

Well well, someone doesn't like bashing skulls with hammers...

No, it's complete bunk. Just like phrenology.

I like my answer better :D

Well well, someone doesn't like bashing skulls with hammers...

Haha. No, I only use hammers on zombies. In all other cases I prefer wits.

I like my answer better :D

Yeah, true. But I felt I'd be serious and informative.

No, you can't.

Mainly because they are very vague and can be interpreted in many ways, much like the crazy metaphorical babblings of mad men. A psychic that says "You'll earn 223 dollars on march 12th, from a lottery contest" would have to be retarded (or omniscient).

But psychic sometimes do make exact (http://stopsylviabrowne.com/articles/montel_opal.shtml) predicitions.

They just tend to be wrong...

Yeah, true. But I felt I'd be serious and informative.

Silly UNI...

I can't say I ever really thought about it. I figure, though, if a psychic tells me my plane is going to crash, I might just go ahead and take another flight. Better to be safe than sorry.

No, you can’t.

Mainly because they are very vague and can be interpreted in many ways, much like the crazy metaphorical babblings of mad men. A psychic that says “You’ll earn 223 dollars on march 12th, from a lottery contest” would have to be retarded (or omniscient).
Surely that goes towards debunking these fraudsters?

But psychic sometimes do make exact (http://stopsylviabrowne.com/articles/montel_opal.shtml) predicitions.

They just tend to be wrong...

That's one less "psychic" in the world. Now to prove wrong the ones that aren't stupid, that's something else altogether.

I can't say I ever really thought about it. I figure, though, if a psychic tells me my plane is going to crash, I might just go ahead and take another flight. Better to be safe than sorry.

As I said, if a someone told you he was a hundred percent sure it was going to happen, that would be dumb, because if it does not happen, it proves that he's not always right (which is not better than always wrong). And if it does happen, well, I might call the police, but I sure as heck would listen to him the next time.

With the changes expected to come into force next month, spiritualists have faced a barrage of headlines gleefully suggesting that they should have seen it coming.

I lolled...

Nope, I don´t. And no, it isn´t.

Nope, I don´t. And no, it isn´t.

Actually, it is:

http://www.nsac.org/

From the website:
Spiritualism is the Science, Philosophy, and Religion of continuous life, based upon the demonstrated fact of communication, by means of mediumship, with those who live in the Spirit World. (emphasis added)

Not all psychics are Spiritualists, but the Spiritualist religion IS a religion of psychics.

Personally, I do believe that some people have psychic abilities, but I also believe that every professional psychic I've seen so far has been a fraud and/or a con artist.

I used to read tarot cards for extra income and still do it for either fun or personal meditation. When I read the cards for customers, I made no attempt to personalize the readings. I just laid out the cards and described what they meant, like telling a story. I left it up to the customer to decide whether what I said meant anything or not. Hell, that system worked for the Oracle at Delphi, so it was good enough for me. But from the kinds of questions I got, I can see how the frauds make such huge livings. People were either very emotional and in desperate need of some kind of reassurance, or else they were self-serving ego-trippers looking for cosmic permission to do what they wanted -- like the woman who kept coming to me to ask if it was part of her "spiritual journey" to cheat on her husband, and the other who asked if suing her neighbor would be good for her "spiritual growth." Pro psychics may be con artists, but there's a old saying about con games -- "You can't cheat an honest man."

I've only ever known one person who I thought was psychic, and he seemed totally unaware of it. He as this hippy stoner who also read tarot at the place I worked, and he sucked as a tarot card reader because his readings were totally incoherent. But every now and then, he'd be pointing to the cards and saying they meant things which they didn't mean, but which were meaningful to the customer. He'd point to some random card that really meant something like "professional accomplishments" and say things like "This card represents an older man in your past -- your uncle, the one from Oklahoma who died last year, from cancer. Your mother's brother. Wally. He was 67..." etc. He freaked out a lot of people, and then he'd mutter to me, "Man, what was that guy's problem? He was, like, freaked out or something."

It seems that the psychics in the UK are upset over a new law that repeals the Fraudulent Mediums Act of 1951 and replaces it with a new consumer protection law. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080418/od_nm/britain_psychic_dc_3

One of the psychics. stated, ""By repealing the Act, the onus will go round the other way and we will have to prove we are genuine," McEntee-Taylor told Reuters. "No other religion has to do that."

So, my questions are: Do you believe in psychics? Are they a religion.

IMHO I think there are some people who are truly psychics, but there are a lot of frauds out there. I don't believe they are a religion as Physics can hold many different religious beliefs.

There's a lot at steak. Repealing the law will make mediums rare. Well done. :)

No, you can't.

Mainly because they are very vague and can be interpreted in many ways, much like the crazy metaphorical babblings of mad men. A psychic that says "You'll earn 223 dollars on march 12th, from a lottery contest" would have to be retarded (or omniscient).

if I told you that and it didn't happen then you or someone else obviously screwed up the time line. I can't be held responsible for other people's incompetence.

see?

Lo, the prophet Isaac Newton was cursed with blindness of superstition, but the non-existent non-deities of Physics opened his eyes unto the apple. Do not blaspheme his holy name.

In the beginning, there was nothingness. And then there was Einstein. And Einstein said, "Let there be light." And the atom was split. And then there was light.

A lot of light. And heat.

And Einstein saw this, and was pleased. In his divine wisdom he said "Let the blessed E, upon which is mine holy touched, rest upon the firmament of mass moving over the speed of light. And upon this union, let it be granted the power of two, for that is which the blessed E of energy shalt rest upon."

:p

No, it's a concept that I came across via Pratchett. Basically, phrenology reckons that the shape of the skull determines your personality, so reverse phrenology reckons that you should be able to modify their personality by reshaping the skull. Generally with a hammer.
Oh, gotcha! :)
People say "reverse", and i have a lot of different ideas as to what they actually mean. Thank you. *bows*

It's understandable that so-called mediums would be upset about a law that requires them to prove their special ability so that they can make a buck off the talent because there has never been a single person who has come forward and done this. A lot of people have tried to prove that they have the ability to speak with the dead or read minds but every one of them that has agreed to be tested has been exposed as a fraud and the smarter ones avoid testing completely. There's even a million dollar prize out there for anyone able to demonstrate a supernatural ability under controlled conditions. Not one person has been able to claim the money. Some pull that "I don't need the money" bullshit but do you know of any charity that can say the same?

That's one less "psychic" in the world. Now to prove wrong the ones that aren't stupid, that's something else altogether.

I prefer to think of it as hubris than stupidity.

Also I think some, Uri Geller frex, genuinley believe they are magic.

I prefer to think of it as hubris than stupidity.

Also I think some, Uri Geller frex, genuinley believe they are magic.
Uri Geller believes he's "magic" only in the sense that he thinks he's so fucking wonderful that his existence brings sparkly magic to the lives of mere mortals. :rolleyes: Uri Geller is a text-book fraud, imo. So is John Edwards (the psychic, not the politician; I like the politician). Their tricks are obvious to anyone who watches them work dispassionately (i.e. not wanting what they say to be true).

I'd say most psychics who are members of the Spiritualist church (see my earlier post), or who practice one of several other (usually traditional ethnic) religions that involve "magic", do truly believe that what they are doing is real. I'm not going to judge whether it could be real or not. I'm just going to say I've seen far more examples of psychics using "cold reading" tricks than not. I have seen people who do it in a way that makes me think they are not aware that they are doing it, but I can still see them taking cues off the reactions of their "client." And I've seen many, many people just blindly extemporising off a situation, hoping some coherent story will emerge, but to me that's called brainstorming, not channeling.

To me, the difference of whether a psychic is a con artist or not is whether he is misleading people deliberately. Many do it unintentionally because they are misleading themselves as well.

There's a really good movie from the 1950s (I think) starring Tyrone Power, called "Nightmare Alley." It's about the rise and fall of a professional psychic mindreader, like John Edwards. He rises to the heights of fame as a nightclub act, and everyone believes he really has "the power," but when he starts believing he really does have power over other people (not psychic power but the power of personality to manipulate and use others), he over-reaches himself and crashes. He ends up alcoholic and working in cheap carnivals. One night, he's talking to one of the carnies, and does a "cold read" on the guy, telling him all about his past, and how much he misses the dog he had as a boy and all the experiences he shared with that dog, and about the pain of losing that dog that lasts to this day, etc. The carny is amazed, but Tyrone Power tells him it was all fake. The carny protests, "But I really did have a dog! It all happened just like you said. How could you know that?"

And Tyrone Power answers, "Brother, every boy has a dog."

<snip>
And Tyrone Power answers, "Brother, every boy has a dog."

Heh, that's pretty neat.

Perhaps Geller is a poor choice on my part in retrospect.

I knew you were going to post this thread.

Spooky, eh?

Heh, that's pretty neat.

Perhaps Geller is a poor choice on my part in retrospect.

"Nightmare Alley" is a brutally cynical movie because the fake psychic racket is a brutally cynical con. It exploits people's fear of being anonymous, of being too small in the universe to be noticed, which in my (cynical) opinion, is a fear born of frustrated ego. So really, it's exploiting people's desire to be special, to have the stars themselves carefully plotting out their life stories, to have the angels standing by to offer them advice about every little thing, to be so special and fascinating and important that even when you die, you can't stop thinking about them.

When you really watch people like Uri Geller and John Edwards, you can see it clear as day -- their whole schtick is to pet and feed the egos of their audience. Geller's message is that you can manipulate the forces of the universe to make yourself feel powerful, to make you win the lottery, etc. Edwards' message is that you are still the center of attention of everyone who was ever in your life, even the dead ones. If people just want to have a spa day for their egos, I really have no problem with it. Let these guys make their money for providing that service. But it's when they exploit people who are really in pain, who need real help to heal from a terrible loss in their lives, when the psychic doesn't say "it's okay to let them go" but instead says "keep coming to me and I'll keep you connected to them", that is what really pisses me off.

That sort of con has nothing to do with whether psychic abilities really exist or not. So I guess the answer to the OP question would be "I believe in psychics, but I don't believe in THESE psychics." After all, doctors who have the knowledge to heal really exist, but so do quacks who can't heal anything but charge money for fake treatments.

if I told you that and it didn't happen then you or someone else obviously screwed up the time line. I can't be held responsible for other people's incompetence.

see?

I don't really see what you mean, other than "yes, it is not possible to prove a psychic false". Is that what you mean?

"Nightmare Alley" is a brutally cynical movie because the fake psychic racket is a brutally cynical con. It exploits people's fear of being anonymous, of being too small in the universe to be noticed, which in my (cynical) opinion, is a fear born of frustrated ego. So really, it's exploiting people's desire to be special, to have the stars themselves carefully plotting out their life stories, to have the angels standing by to offer them advice about every little thing, to be so special and fascinating and important that even when you die, you can't stop thinking about them.

I have to say, to my shame, I only realised that aspect of it after I heard about The Secret (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_%282006_film%29). Which was rather obvious in that regard

When you really watch people like Uri Geller and John Edwards, you can see it clear as day -- their whole schtick is to pet and feed the egos of their audience. Geller's message is that you can manipulate the forces of the universe to make yourself feel powerful, to make you win the lottery, etc. Edwards' message is that you are still the center of attention of everyone who was ever in your life, even the dead ones. If people just want to have a spa day for their egos, I really have no problem with it. Let these guys make their money for providing that service. But it's when they exploit people who are really in pain, who need real help to heal from a terrible loss in their lives, when the psychic doesn't say "it's okay to let them go" but instead says "keep coming to me and I'll keep you connected to them", that is what really pisses me off.

That has been something that has annoyed me about the whole thing too. Especially when the psychic disingenuously claims that they are "helping" the grieving rather then exploiting them.

I don't really see what you mean, other than "yes, it is not possible to prove a psychic false". Is that what you mean?

I think she means that the psychic always has some excuse and plenty of handwavium ti hand to explain their way of it.


Others, such as the aforementioned Sylvia Brown are apparently rather successful in pretending their "misses" never happened and getting their 'marks' to believe so too.

Do you believe in psychics?

They really exist...
They're just frauds.

I believe in psychics to some degrees. But it's not a religion. It's an ability, they don't all have a name for an entity or a belief system.

I believe in psychics to some degrees. But it's not a religion. It's an ability, they don't all have a name for an entity or a belief system.

I wish people would read the thread. As I said on page 7, there IS an organized, recognized religion of psychics. This is their website:

http://www.nsac.org/

They do have a cohesive belief system, which they describe in great detail in this site. They've existed for almost a century, I think, and they are as sincere as any other religion (arguably way more sincere than Scientology). As I said on page 7, not all psychics are Spiritualists, but Spiritualism is a religion of psychics/mediums.

I believe in psychics to some degrees. But it's not a religion. It's an ability, they don't all have a name for an entity or a belief system.

It does though, as has been pointed out, "Spiritualism (http://www.snu.org.uk/)."

I wish people would read the thread. As I said on page 7, there IS an organized, recognized religion of psychics. This is their website:

http://www.nsac.org/

They do have a cohesive belief system, which they describe in great detail in this site. They've existed for almost a century, I think, and they are as sincere as any other religion (arguably way more sincere than Scientology). As I said on page 7, not all psychics are Spiritualists, but Spiritualism is a religion of psychics/mediums.

They even have (/had) celebrity followers

I don't really see what you mean, other than "yes, it is not possible to prove a psychic false". Is that what you mean?
yes.

I have to say, to my shame, I only realised that aspect of it after I heard about The Secret (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_%282006_film%29). Which was rather obvious in that regard



That has been something that has annoyed me about the whole thing too. Especially when the psychic disingenuously claims that they are "helping" the grieving rather then exploiting them.
Well, having dissed Uri Geller along with John Edwards and that ilk, I think I should mention that actually I really love Uri Geller, but not because I believe anything he says.

I'm a surrealist, and so is Uri Geller -- and he's a damned good one, too, so credit must be given where due. I bow to this modern master of my chosen artform. Seriously, in everything he does, Uri Geller embodies with zen-like purity the perfect ideal of what a modern celebrity, businessman, <insert other social icon(s)> is supposed to be in the New Age of Now (tm). Behold:

His site (the motherlode of gold; note where he brags about how Salvador Dali was his "mentor" -- shit, dude, I didn't need to be a psychic to figure that out):
http://www.uri-geller.com/index.htm

My personal favorite of his projects, the Mind Power Kit, complete with pet magic orange dot:
http://www.uri-geller.com/kit.htm

And this little rundown of his career, which had me laughing out loud. Damn, he's good:
http://www.zem.demon.co.uk/auerbach.htm