NationStates Jolt Archive

Would you lie about your faith to save your life?
For example: If you were a christian and were told that you would be killed if you were in fact a christian, would you claim to be of another faith to save your life?

Why or why not?

How about to save your family's lives?

Never, I'd rather die than renounce my faith in Christ

I'd rather die. I'm hardly an evangelical, but renouncing your faith for anything other than disbelief is just petty.

As for my family, we'll share the same reward.

Hell yes!
If you can't beat the fundamentalists, be a fundamentalist!

Since I do not believe in God.. I would lie for less :))

I certainly would, simply saying a few words to save my (or others) life would be an easy way out of whatever mess I was in!


But that's based upon the fact that I'm an atheist pretending to be a Christian for this situation, maybe if I really was a Christian posting in this thread, the answer would be different.

I'd lie for a parking space. Who cares? You get lied to a dozen times a day. :p Although I don't expect to burn in hell, so that might make some difference.

4-4;13623181']I certainly would, simply saying a few words to save my (or others) life would be an easy way out of whatever mess I was in!


But that's based upon the fact that I'm an atheist pretending to be a Christian for this situation, maybe if I really was a Christian posting in this thread, the answer would be different.

Would you claim to be a christian if you were told you would be killed if you weren't christian?

no, because proper Christians don't kill people except in self-defense, and whoever did it would make their on little group look bad.

Very hard to say. I would like to say No, I wouldn't lie to save myself or my family, but who can really say when the situation arrises?

no, because proper Christians don't kill people except in self-defense

:eek:

no, because proper Christians don't kill people except in self-defense, and whoever did it would make their on little group look bad.

:confused:

no, because proper Christians don't kill people except in self-defense, and whoever did it would make their on little group look bad.

"Proper Christians" aren't supposed to kill. Ever. Turn the other cheek, and shit like that...

Would you claim to be a christian if you were told you would be killed if you weren't christian?

Defiantly!
In a life or death situation, lying to stay alive seems like a pretty good idea, even if it does mean pretending to acknowledge a Deity and its teachings.

Would you claim to be a christian if you were told you would be killed if you weren't christian?

Depends on the circumstances. If my death could serve some purpose - maybe not. Otherwise: sure. When surrounded by children one might as well play along. Especially if the kids have guns.

4-4;13623231']Defiantly!

"I… am a Christian!" *throws down glove on table*

"Proper Christians" aren't supposed to kill. Ever. Turn the other cheek, and shit like that...

I believe that is clearly stated on the rules sign right before you enter any Christian church. I believe it is right under the rule that says you can marry multiple underage women.

of course.

I would most certainly lie about my faith to save my life, my family's life, and anyone else's life if I had to. I abhor lying and cheating more than just about anything, but in an instance where a lie does no harm to anyone and saves lives? I can't understand anyone who answered "no".

"Proper Christians" aren't supposed to kill. Ever. Turn the other cheek, and shit like that...

You're confusing the word 'kill' with the word 'murder'. Christians (and Jews for the same reason) aren't supposed to murder. Killing, of course, can sometimes be murder so there is some definite gray area that I myself don't claim to be able to judge.

I couldn't lie about about the sacrifice that Christ made for me. When he was being led to His slaughter He didn't deny His own message, even though that would have saved Him... but He didn't make that sacrifice for Himself, He made it for me, and there is no way that I could lie about such an act done for me. (Also, the Bible is pretty clear that denying Christ is not a very good thing....)

I would feel terrible being part of the cause for my family's death, but I would find solace in the fact that the gunman is being far more unreasonable, by putting us in this situation in the first place, then it is for me to lie about such a serious matter.

of course.

I always took you for a "talk talk, fight fight" commie. Makes sense. :p

I would most certainly lie about my faith to save my life, my family's life, and anyone else's life if I had to. I abhor lying and cheating more than just about anything, but in an instance where a lie does no harm to anyone and saves lives? I can't understand anyone who answered "no".

That is my position as well.

I'm a Christian and my faith is very important to me.

Would I lie and say I didn't believe in order to save mine or my family's lives?

HELL YEAH!

Why would you not? If you believe in God and believe that He loves you then He's going to forgive you and he's going to understand why you did what you did, and He would be proud of you for saving lives.

If you believe in the Bible, then Simon Peter renounced that he even knew Jesus three times, was he cast into the fires of hell? No, Christ built the Church on him!

In the case of just your own life: look at it this way, if you're dead, then you can't continue doing good works on earth. Personally I think trying to help people in your day to day life for as long as you live is far greater testiment to your love of God than being slaughtered and not being able to help anyone any more when you could have easily avoided it.

To save your family's lives: Surely you're not so fanatically pious that you would sacrifice your family's lives when you could have just repented later?


Having said that, I have nothing but respect for Red Martyrs.

I would most certainly lie about my faith to save my life, my family's life, and anyone else's life if I had to. I abhor lying and cheating more than just about anything, but in an instance where a lie does no harm to anyone and saves lives? I can't understand anyone who answered "no".

Well said.

I always took you for a "talk talk, fight fight" commie. Makes sense. :p

Objection your honor. Hear-say. I am not a communist.

I would most certainly lie about my faith to save my life, my family's life, and anyone else's life if I had to. I abhor lying and cheating more than just about anything, but in an instance where a lie does no harm to anyone and saves lives? I can't understand anyone who answered "no".

You shoulda been here for the Kant thread, then. :p

"I… am a Christian!" *throws down glove on table*

I'm sorry, but I do not get the reference.



Did the question originally mean that you would claim to be of another faith in a one off situation, e.g. A mob comes up to you, and says are you with us or against us.
Or, is it a life-long thing, where say the country/state required you to be of a certain religion, or you would die.

I think that more people would prefer a single lie, then living a constant one.


(either way, I'd still try to stay alive as long as possible, and get out of the area asap)

I would lie my ass off. I would lie so hard that the universe itself would be convinced by my lies and would re-organise itself so my lies would become the truth.

I would most certainly lie about my faith to save my life, my family's life, and anyone else's life if I had to. I abhor lying and cheating more than just about anything, but in an instance where a lie does no harm to anyone and saves lives? I can't understand anyone who answered "no".

Well.. one could truly believe that lying ultimately does more damage. Or that some things are worth more than their own life (and that of their family).

when you could have just repented later?

You must not actually understand the message of Jesus, where did He say "Yeah, look guys, sin where ever it seems conveniant, after all, I'll forgive you anyway, so you might as well get a lot forgiven than a little!" actually, you won't find that message, but the exact opposite said by both Jesus, and Paul.

4-4;13623276']I'm sorry, but I do not get the reference.

You wrote "defiantly." Did you mean "definitely?" If so, your typo would've altered the meaning of the sentence by substituting a completely different yet contextually plausible word. I kinda hoped that was the case when I saw it. :p

I suggest every "Christian" in this thread read Luke 12:8-9.

Of course. If the choice is death or feigning to believe in pixies, the choice is quite easy to make. I could even feign to think religious belief respectable; I've done that before so as to avoid hurting precious faith-head sensibilities.

Objection your honor. Hear-say. I am not a communist.

Ah, my mistake. Although I do consider anyone to the left of Rush a commie, so that could be the source of confusion. (Not really, but you get the idea). :p

4-4;13623276']I'm sorry, but I do not get the reference.



Did the question originally mean that you would claim to be of another faith in a one off situation, e.g. A mob comes up to you, and says are you with us or against us.
Or, is it a life-long thing, where say the country/state required you to be of a certain religion, or you would die.

I think that more people would prefer a single lie, then living a constant one.


(either way, I'd still try to stay alive as long as possible, and get out of the area asap)

The bolded...

I suggest every "Christian" in this thread read Luke 12:8-9.

Agreed wholeheartedly, and that is the root of my answer, along with Matthew 16:25, and Romans 6:1-2.

The message of the Bible in this regard is very clear, especially since JEsus Himself denied His own beliefs so He wouldn't be killed... oh wait, no He didn't.

Never, I'd rather die than renounce my faith in Christ

Lying and renouncing are two totally different things.

You must not actually understand the message of Jesus, where did He say "Yeah, look guys, sin where ever it seems conveniant, after all, I'll forgive you anyway, so you might as well get a lot forgiven than a little!" actually, you won't find that message, but the exact opposite said by both Jesus, and Paul.
I think saving lives is just a wee bit more than convenient.

And didn't St. Peter deny Christ three times? And it's not like his life was in danger or anything, he just saved himself from embarrassment. The first ever Pope, arguably the holiest man since Jesus himself(you know, if that stuff means anything to you) can deny his faith three times for nothing, and Christians in this thread would rather die than follow his example.


Teeheehee.

Lying and renouncing are two totally different things.

Not Biblically, I refer you to my prior post (and the post that I quoted in my last post)

Lying and renouncing are two totally different things.

True. One involves paperwork. Other than that, it's functionally the same.

Lying is a weakness, and by that poll, so many are weak as wet toilet paper

you either believe in your faith or you don't, there is no 'play make believe'

if you're prepared to talk BS about your religion, you don't believe in it strong enough.

- - - - -

Just like Lunatic Goofballs believes in his god: Willy Wonka, and LG will fight to the death to protect all that candy

To the OP, I wouldn't really know until I was put in that situation.

To the others. It's easy to say "No, I wouldn't lie" when you are not in such a life and death scenario.

I think saving lives is just a wee bit more than convenient.

And didn't St. Peter deny Christ three times? And it's not like his life was in danger or anything, he just saved himself from embarrassment. The first ever Pope, arguably the holiest man since Jesus himself(you know, if that stuff means anything to you) can deny his faith three times for nothing, and Christians in this thread would rather die than follow his example.


Teeheehee.

Read the book of Acts, or any of the Bible verses that have been posted in the thread. Peter sinned, there're no two ways about it, He shouldn't have sinned, thats all there is too it.

He was a 'sain't and 'pope' only in retrospect to trying to shed some Biblical legitimacy to the Catholic Church (which is a pretty ridiculous stretch). Paul referred to all Christians as 'saints' (the term "Christian" wasn't in use yet, and 'believer' was probably to generic in a still heavily Jew/pagan area).

Forgiveness can certainly be attained, but I would rather not need the particular forgiveness if I can help it. Also, intentional sins are pretty bad.

It's not your fault the gunman is threatening the lives of your family, your not the unreasonable one for not lying. Christ says He is coming like a theif in the night, and to be prepared during all hours so that we aren't taken by surprise, the same can be said of death, I don't know when I am going to die, it could be suddenly, and I am prepared, if my family is not spiritually prepared... well why weren't they? They had their whole lives, it's not my fault if my admission of Christ sends them to the Hell they effectively sentenced themselves to.

I suggest every "Christian" in this thread read Luke 12:8-9.Agreed wholeheartedly, and that is the root of my answer, along with Matthew 16:25, and Romans 6:1-2.

The message of the Bible in this regard is very clear, especially since JEsus Himself denied His own beliefs so He wouldn't be killed... oh wait, no He didn't.

Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Don't see how either of these is applicable.

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

This one I can see.

4-4;13623276']Did the question originally mean that you would claim to be of another faith in a one off situation, e.g. A mob comes up to you, and says are you with us or against us.
Or, is it a life-long thing, where say the country/state required you to be of a certain religion, or you would die.

I think that more people would prefer a single lie, then living a constant one.
That is an important distinction. In a one off situation as is discussed in this thread I'd do like Peter, nothing said under torture or threat of death is valid and God is forgiving. If it was a long term thing however I'd rather die free than yield to the tyrants and live under their oppression.

To the OP, I wouldn't really know until I was put in that situation.

To the others. It's easy to say "No, I wouldn't lie" when you are not in such a life and death scenario.

I respect you more than anyone else in this thread right now. You are right - it's hard to know for sure. It's easy to know what you would want to do, but harder to actually do it.

So, the question I now pose to you, do you want to say "No, I wouldn't lie" or have you determined ahead of time to consider it as a viable option?

<snip> if my family is not spiritually prepared... well why weren't they? They had their whole lives, it's not my fault if my admission of Christ sends them to the Hell they effectively sentenced themselves to.

This is the compassion of a christian? :rolleyes:

Don't see how either of these is applicable.

Roman's 6:1-2 is a stretch, but Luke directly talks about this. A man who denies Jesus before men (even under threat) will be denied in the heavens.

So, do what you want - lie and deny if you wish, but the consequences are listed.

I respect you more than anyone else in this thread right now. You are right - it's hard to know for sure. It's easy to know what you would want to do, but harder to actually do it.

So, the question I now pose to you, do you want to say "No, I wouldn't lie" or have you determined ahead of time to consider it as a viable option?

If it was just me, I would like to think I wouldn't lie (still don't know though). If it was my family, I would lie unless very strongly convinced other wise.

I'm Jewish, and I have strong perspectives on the matter.

Firstly, on the second page there's a reply that mentions that Christians cannot murder. It then says '(and Jews too, for some reason)'. Well, ignorant person if you didn't know, Jesus was a rabbi and a Jew. Christianity is Judaism! The one fundamental difference is that Christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah, and we don't think that the Messiah has come yet. The only matter of debate is if Jesus thought he was the Messiah or not, but we won't get into that.

Secondly, one of THE paramount laws in Judaism is: You must break any law needed to survive.

That's not an exception. That's a command. All laws must be ignored to save yourself or even save another. Must. Judaism's very practical.

Actually, there are three laws that you should die before breaking:

You may not have forbidden sexual relationships (incest, adultery, etc) to survive.

You may not kill another to survive.

You may not pray to idols to survive.

Actually, it turns out that you can even break laws if you really need to. You could, for example, pray to idols if only a few people were watching. Apologize to God later. However, if you're the Chief Rabbi of wherever, you should not in any circumstances allow vids to be broadcasted of you renouncing God and praying to idols.

Don't see how either of these is applicable.

They are all three applicable, but I will naturally only explain why the two are applicable:

The first is applicable, because I would be denying Christ to men, and He would deny me to God (should the gunman kill me anyway, which I could see him very well doing). So it becomes a personal matter, should I put my eternal life at risk for the possibility of living longer in this one? No, it also makes it clear that denying Christ is a bad thing to do.

The verse in Romans actually has longer context that fills it out more, but is basically saying that i's not ok to have the mentality of: "Well, God will forgive me later, so why not sin now?" only the verse actually states it stronger, it claims (and following Christian theology, it claims correctly) that 'God's grace increases as we sin, because there is more for God's grace to forgive, so, we should sin much, to increase God's grace!' Paul responds to this hypothetical with: "By no means" meaning that, yes God's grace increases with our sins (and that Christians still do sin), but sin is still bad, and we shouldn't use the excuse of increasing God's grace to justify sinning. How it's applicable: We can't make excuses for sinning, there are plenty, but if we are going to start to justify sinning for any reason we might as well justify unlimited and wanton sinning.

Roman's 6:1-2 is a stretch, but Luke directly talks about this. A man who denies Jesus before men (even under threat) will be denied in the heavens.
God is omniscient, yes?
So, do what you want - lie and deny if you wish, but the consequences are listed.
I'm glad I have your permission. :rolleyes:

If it was just me, I would like to think I wouldn't lie (still don't know though). If it was my family, I would lie unless very strongly convinced other wise.

An honest and respectable answer. From a biblical standpoint, your position is... questionable, at best, but your honesty and practicality is striking. A man will do many things for the sake of his family.

Bravo.

God is omniscient, yes?

Uh oh. I don't have to be omniscient to know where this is going.

He chooses not to be omniscient with regard to the future, but in all other ways, yes.

It's not your fault the gunman is threatening the lives of your family, your not the unreasonable one for not lying. Christ says He is coming like a theif in the night, and to be prepared during all hours so that we aren't taken by surprise, the same can be said of death, I don't know when I am going to die, it could be suddenly, and I am prepared, if my family is not spiritually prepared... well why weren't they? They had their whole lives, it's not my fault if my admission of Christ sends them to the Hell they effectively sentenced themselves to.

This reminds me of the anology of family with the water tank.

There was once a rich family, the tap water in their region was unavailable, and so they had a water-tank installed in the garden. All the family's drinking water came from this water tank.

One day, their neighbour John was walking down the road. He had promised a friend that he would pick them up from the airport. Being an upstanding religious man, John did not want to let his friend down by being late, as this would cause them inconvenience and thus be a sin.

As he hurried past his neighbour's garden, he saw a malicious misanthropist emptying a bottle into the water-tank. As the vandal saw John watching him, the vandal threw down the empty bottle in a panic and ran away. Curious, John picked up the bottle and saw that the label said 'Cyanide'.

John now faces a dilemma. If he runs up the family's long garden to tell them that their drinking water will kill them with a single drop, he will be late to meet his friend at the airport, however if he does not tell the family, they will be unaware of the deadly poison.

Being an upstanding religious man, John rationalised it like this:

---It's not my fault that the vandal poisoned their water. I had nothing to do with it.

---If I run up the garden to warn the family, I'll definitely be late to meet my friend, and that will be a sin, as I will inconvenience them, make them annoyed, when I could have easily been on time to meet them.

---Thus I am not being unreasonable by walking away.

---I did not poison the water myself, and thus I wash my hands of this matter, whatever happens to the family is the fault of the vandal and not of mine.

And off he goes to meet his friend at the airport, putting the empty bottle into a bin as he walks away. After all, he wouldn't want to litter, being an upstanding religious man.

I'm Jewish, and I have strong perspectives on the matter.

Firstly, on the second page there's a reply that mentions that Christians cannot murder. It then says '(and Jews too, for some reason)'. Well, ignorant person if you didn't know, Jesus was a rabbi and a Jew. Christianity is Judaism! The one fundamental difference is that Christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah, and we don't think that the Messiah has come yet. The only matter of debate is if Jesus thought he was the Messiah or not, but we won't get into that.

Secondly, one of THE paramount laws in Judaism is: You must break any law needed to survive.

That's not an exception. That's a command. All laws must be ignored to save yourself or even save another. Must. Judaism's very practical.

Actually, there are three laws that you should die before breaking:

You may not have forbidden sexual relationships (incest, adultery, etc) to survive.

You may not kill another to survive.

You may not pray to idols to survive.

Actually, it turns out that you can even break laws if you really need to. You could, for example, pray to idols if only a few people were watching. Apologize to God later. However, if you're the Chief Rabbi of wherever, you should not in any circumstances allow vids to be broadcasted of you renouncing God and praying to idols.

Actually, I said that Jews can't murder for the same reason as Christians, I understand the strong ties the two share.

I also understand that to have the perspective you have, you must actually ignore the books of Moses, as death was a penalty for breaking many of the laws (implying that there is no right action good enough to have those broken laws forgiven). What you may not realize is that Judiasm is not a particularly humanly practical religion, should you read some of it's scripture (if you can back up any of your viewpoints, please post some of that back up), I can post back up for the notion that one cannot excuse himself from the law for convenience.

Post some evidence to support you view, until then I consider it void.

Roman's 6:1-2 is a stretch, but Luke directly talks about this. A man who denies Jesus before men (even under threat) will be denied in the heavens.

So, do what you want - lie and deny if you wish, but the consequences are listed.

If you believe that Jesus is God and died to save you, you are a Christion, no matter what. THAT is what I was taught. If that's a lie, then so is many millions of peoples faith.

I believe that God wouldn't lie, but I guess i'll find out whether that is true or not when I die.

Uh oh. I don't have to be omniscient to know where this is going.
Really? Well, we'll see.
He chooses not to be omniscient with regard to the future, but in all other ways, yes.
If god knows that you do believe (which he would if he was omniscient), regardless of what you say, how would this be denying him?
Yes it would still be a lie, but not denial of god.

An honest and respectable answer. From a biblical standpoint, your position is... questionable, at best, but your honesty and practicality is striking. A man will do many things for the sake of his family.

Bravo.

From a biblical standpoint--a Jewish standpoint--, his position is heretical. He is, in effect, committing suicide.

If you believe that Jesus is God and died to save you, you are a Christian, no matter what. THAT is what I was taught. If that's a lie, then so is many millions of peoples faith.

I don't believe Jesus is God, because he said he wasn't, but in this particular discussion, that point is moot because it's not the topic.

I believe that God wouldn't lie, but I guess i'll find out whether that is true or not when I die.

I must have missed something... the train of thought jumped to another track entirely and I missed it.

If god knows that you do believe (which he would if he was omniscient), regardless of what you say, how would this be denying him?
Yes it would still be a lie, but not denial of god.

It's still a denial before men, because men are not omniscient, and they can't tell that you still believe and are lying (which, would also defeat the point of lying, but I digress).

An honest and respectable answer. From a biblical standpoint, your position is... questionable, at best, but your honesty and practicality is striking. A man will do many things for the sake of his family.

Bravo.

I am not a strong man of the faith i'm sorry to say. I have had strong doubts at times and I am sorry about them. But I do believe that Jesus is God's son and from everything I have been tought, that makes me a Christian.

The bible teaches you never lose salvation, and that I pray is true.
If not I would also hope that God would forgive me or at least my family for my lie.

snip

But John in this story isn't faced with denying the Christ who died for him, so the analogy doesn't fit very well.

The analogy, and point you are making is void, denying Christ transcends convenience, it would've been convenient for Christ to deny His beliefs to save His own life, but He didn't, have you ever thought that maybe He had a reason?

In fact, in the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus prayed that this cup was passed from Him, He didn't want to be brutally murdered, but that was the cost of His beliefs, so is it the cost of the Christian faith.

geez id lie about my faith to avoid an awkward social situation.

From a biblical standpoint--a Jewish standpoint--, his position is heretical. He is, in effect, committing suicide.

Even so, it is still an honorable suicide. Due to his sacrifice, his family is spared this... test. That's why I said a man will do many things for the sake of his family.

1 Timothy 5:8

It's still a denial before men, because men are not omniscient, and they can't tell that you still believe and are lying (which, would also defeat the point of lying, but I digress).

So what you're saying is that god doesn't care whether or not you believe, as long as the people around you think you believe?

Why should it matter to god whether or not the people around you think you believe?

I must have missed something... the train of thought jumped to another track entirely and I missed it.

Perhaps, but I don't feel like addressing this at the moment, perhaps later.

Actually, I said that Jews can't murder for the same reason as Christians, I understand the strong ties the two share.

I also understand that to have the perspective you have, you must actually ignore the books of Moses, as death was a penalty for breaking many of the laws (implying that there is no right action good enough to have those broken laws forgiven). What you may not realize is that Judiasm is not a particularly humanly practical religion, should you read some of it's scripture (if you can back up any of your viewpoints, please post some of that back up), I can post back up for the notion that one cannot excuse himself from the law for convenience.

Post some evidence to support you view, until then I consider it void.

Ah, I see you did say that. I'm blind.

On to the death penalty, that was, for obvious reasons, not considered murder. It does not contradict my views.

Further, on to the subject of the Jewish death penalty: it was understood in the Sanhedrin--high court--that the death penalty would not be assigned. In theory it was out there, but it was viewed that God would punish them anyways, so they would not do so, in case there was error. For instance, if someone drowned, they may have done something meriting the penalty of suffocation. Falling off a cliff could mean stoning.

The death penalty was almost never used.

geez id lie about my faith to avoid an awkward social situation.

I wouldn't, but then I rather enjoy the reaction I get when people find out that I'm not a christian...

Even so, it is still an honorable suicide. Due to his sacrifice, his family is spared this... test. That's why I said a man will do many things for the sake of his family.

1 Timothy 5:8

Touche, but three verses have been provided to the contrary, and two of those were from Jesus Himself, who surely overrides Paul (the author of the third contrary verse.)

Even so, it is still an honorable suicide. Due to his sacrifice, his family is spared this... test. That's why I said a man will do many things for the sake of his family.

1 Timothy 5:8

How is his family spared anything by him dying?

Ah, I see you did say that. I'm blind.

On to the death penalty, that was, for obvious reasons, not considered murder. It does not contradict my views.

Further, on to the subject of the Jewish death penalty: it was understood in the Sanhedrin--high court--that the death penalty would not be assigned. In theory it was out there, but it was viewed that God would punish them anyways, so they would not do so, in case there was error. For instance, if someone drowned, they may have done something meriting the penalty of suffocation. Falling off a cliff could mean stoning.

The death penalty was almost never used.


And the Pharisee Sanhedrin was a long way from being truly Jewish.

EDIT: Also, death was the listed penalty, which means that it was at some points used, meaning that breaking some laws cannot be justified.

Even so, it is still an honorable suicide. Due to his sacrifice, his family is spared this... test. That's why I said a man will do many things for the sake of his family.

1 Timothy 5:8

I don't follow how that relates to my post. I think we have a misunderstanding.

So what you're saying is that god doesn't care whether or not you believe, as long as the people around you think you believe?

Why should it matter to god whether or not the people around you think you believe?

Very simple. The original challenge.

And the Pharisee Sanhedrin was a long way from being truly Jewish.

Perhaps, but not to get into that.

My argument is still valid:

the death penalty is not considered murder.

How is his family spared anything by him dying?

It would go both ways for me. I would admit to being a Christian (which I am) if my family was spared death. I would also lie about being a Christian if my family would be killed if I was. If it was just me and not my family, I would try to be honest.

Touche, but three verses have been provided to the contrary, and two of those were from Jesus Himself, who surely overrides Paul (the author of the third contrary verse.)

Touche`. I may have to retract a couple previous statements.

Very simple. The original challenge.

:confused:

Perhaps, but not to get into that.

My argument is still valid:

the death penalty is not considered murder.

Oh, agreed one hundred percent, execution is often not murder (if the state uses a reasonably justified reason, I don't think it's murder).

What I was saying was that the death penalty (for breaking certain Jewish Laws) proves that the Law is above the life of humans in almost every case.

Jewish Law is (Biblically) so significant, and it's weird, I have not heard of a person practicing real Judaism in my lifetime (where are the Jews sacrificing animals, Christians have a reason not to, never have I heard of a justification for the Jews to have stopped).

Secondly, one of THE paramount laws in Judaism is: You must break any law needed to survive.

That's not an exception. That's a command. All laws must be ignored to save yourself or even save another. Must. Judaism's very practical.
Please back this up by quoting scripture.

It seems the main issue here is not about lying to stay alive but about whether or not you believe suicide by telling the truth is the only way to be saved from hell.

I don't follow how that relates to my post. I think we have a misunderstanding.

I'm talking to three different people. That post wasn't directed to you.

I'd break the attacker's face while they're waiting for a reply. Disarm them first if they're using a gun.

:confused:

The first two chapters of Job should clear things up. I realize that's a bit of reading, but basically Satan challenged God two ways - that man would only serve him when it was advantageous to do so, and that a man would give anything in order to keep living.

These were explicitly brought up during Job's time, but had been implicit arguments since Adam & Eve.

Oh, agreed one hundred percent, execution is often not murder (if the state uses a reasonably justified reason, I don't think it's murder).

What I was saying was that the death penalty (for breaking certain Jewish Laws) proves that the Law is above the life of humans in almost every case.

Jewish Law is (Biblically) so significant, and it's weird, I have not heard of a person practicing real Judaism in my lifetime (where are the Jews sacrificing animals, Christians have a reason not to, never have I heard of a justification for the Jews to have stopped).

There is no temple. That's why we have stopped.

Most laws do not apply at this time.

I'd break the attacker's face while they're waiting for a reply. Disarm them first if they're using a gun.

This would be more like a massive oppressive Government controlled operation, I think. That's what I was basing my posts on, because why would a robber or whatnot care?

It would go both ways for me. I would admit to being a Christian (which I am) if my family was spared death. I would also lie about being a Christian if my family would be killed if I was. If it was just me and not my family, I would try to be honest.

I am saying that in Judaism you would be committing a heinous crime by allowing yourself to die.

It seems the main issue here is not about lying to stay alive but about whether or not you believe suicide by telling the truth is the only way to be saved from hell.

I understand this is aimed at Judaism, but I am forced to conclude that to the Christian, it is.

Surely the lie could be forgiven, but I couldn't live with myself knowing that my life hinged on the denial of my Saviour.

Additionally, should the gunman kill me anyway (as is forseeable) then wouldn't I feel like the fool for not only not being alive, but by being probably in Hell too.

Alas, I gotta go now, to watch some awesome Indiana Jones, I will try to stop in here later, don't argue too well in ym absence, I don't want to miss anything good! :p

This would be more like a massive oppressive Government controlled operation, I think. That's what I was basing my posts on, because why would a robber or whatnot care?

This guy would break the government's face while they're waiting for a reply. ;)

Alas, I gotta go now, to watch some awesome Indiana Jones, I will try to stop in here later, don't argue too well in ym absence, I don't want to miss anything good! :p

Which Indiana Jones? I like Indiana Jones...

"Did they get us?" "More or less."

I'd break the attacker's face while they're waiting for a reply. Disarm them first if they're using a gun.

His partner shoots you in the face. Congrats. :)

This guy would break the government's face while they're waiting for a reply. ;)

*Psh* Only Chuck Norris could do that. :D

I am saying that in Judaism you would be committing a heinous crime by allowing yourself to die.

I thought you were referring to the fact that I would lie.

I thought you were referring to the fact that I would lie.

You should not lie, but it is infinitely worse to allow your death.

I thought you were referring to the fact that I would lie.

This guy practices the most.... interesting form of Judaism that I've ever heard. Personally, I think he's full of it, but I can never tell on forums. The sarcastic voice just doesn't carry over to text.

That was my 1,234th post, btw.

I wouldn't lie to save my own life. I mean, why would I? Seriously, that makes no sense.

To save a life of a family member? It would depend on the family member. My faith isn't their faith and it's unreasonable to ask someone else to die for my beliefs.

You should not lie, but it is infinitely worse to allow your death.

I suppose i'm evil then because i've thought of suicide. I don't think i'll ever do it though, i'm to much of a coward.

This guy practices the most.... interesting form of Judaism that I've ever heard. Personally, I think he's full of it, but I can never tell on forums. The sarcastic voice just doesn't carry over to text.

That was my 1,234th post, btw.

Really? In what way is this 'form' 'interesting'?

I wouldn't lie to save my own life. I mean, why would I? Seriously, that makes no sense.

WHAT?! Seriously, that makes no sense. Do you hate your life or something? Or are you being sarcastic? If someone walked up to you and asked you to say that your favourite colour was black, even though it's green,--or else they'll kill you-- you'd say no?

I suppose i'm evil then because i've thought of suicide. I don't think i'll ever do it though, i'm to much of a coward.

Just thoughts. We all have.

Really? In what way is this 'form' 'interesting'?

Because I've known several Jewish persons (two orthodox, three reformed), and none of them have expressed any believe that the entire code is revocable at will because of circumstance.

Which, now that I think about it, begs the question - are you an Orthodox Jew, Reformed Jew, or something else? My first hunch is reformed, but not in any way that I've ever heard.

WHAT?! Seriously, that makes no sense. Do you hate your life or something? Or are you being sarcastic? If someone walked up to you and asked you to say that your favourite colour was black, even though it's green,--or else they'll kill you-- you'd say no?

Black is my favorite color.

I think saving lives is just a wee bit more than convenient.

And didn't St. Peter deny Christ three times? And it's not like his life was in danger or anything, he just saved himself from embarrassment. The first ever Pope, arguably the holiest man since Jesus himself(you know, if that stuff means anything to you) can deny his faith three times for nothing, and Christians in this thread would rather die than follow his example.


Teeheehee.

Right, but this was considered a mistake and a failing on Peter's part. He's only human, so he's not lambasted for it, but it's not an action to aspire to.

It would go both ways for me. I would admit to being a Christian (which I am) if my family was spared death. I would also lie about being a Christian if my family would be killed if I was. If it was just me and not my family, I would try to be honest.

^This. If it's just me, then I'll admit it and take the consequences. If someone else's life is at stake then I'll save their life even if it means lying. I only have the authority to lay down my own life, not anyone else's.

Just thoughts. We all have.

The main reason for them is that i've thought and thought, but I can't for the life of me see any real REASON why I deserve life.

Because I've known several Jewish persons (two orthodox, three reformed), and none of them have expressed any believe that the entire code is revocable at will because of circumstance.

Which, now that I think about it, begs the question - are you an Orthodox Jew, Reformed Jew, or something else? My first hunch is reformed, but not in any way that I've ever heard.

Not just... 'circumstance'. When LIFE is at stake... life, almost infinitely precious? Central tenet of Judaism!

I'm Orthodox, actually. With some hints of Conservatism... I don't like authority, generally.

The main reason for them is that i've thought and thought, but I can't for the life of me see any real REASON why I deserve life.

Not deserved. Given to you. Don't throw away what is lent.

^This. If it's just me, then I'll admit it and take the consequences. If someone else's life is at stake then I'll save their life even if it means lying. I only have the authority to lay down my own life, not anyone else's.

I'd also do what I said (about my family) for most people. But if the person who would be killed was a murderer or Osma or someone like that, I would let them die. Whether that makes me bad person I don't know.

I'd also do what I said (about my family) for most people. But if the person who would be killed was a murderer or Osma or someone like that, I would let them die. Whether that makes me bad person I don't know.

No. He deserves death, as much as anyone can.

Not deserved. Given to you. Don't throw away what is lent.

Huh, I never thought of it like that before.

Huh, I never thought of it like that before.

It's an interesting way to think.

Not just... 'circumstance'. When LIFE is at stake... life, almost infinitely precious? Central tenet of Judaism!

I'm Orthodox, actually. With some hints of Conservatism... I don't like authority, generally.

I'm going out right now, but I would like to discuss this with you later. I'll resurrect this thread when I get back if it's dead.

Also, I would like to see a source for this tenet. It's certainly not in the Bible, but I would like to know where it is that you draw this from.

Certainly.

WHAT?! Seriously, that makes no sense. Do you hate your life or something? Or are you being sarcastic? If someone walked up to you and asked you to say that your favourite colour was black, even though it's green,--or else they'll kill you-- you'd say no?

I believe in an afterlife that's a million times better than this life here. I believe in it 100%. Am I ready to get the hell out of dodge? Hell no, I love my life. But I don't love it enough to put eternity in jeopardy. If I'm wrong, I won't even know I existed once I'm gone. Doesn't matter how much fun I had in life, none of it will mean a damn thing. If I'm right, what's there to fear?

Because I've known several Jewish persons (two orthodox, three reformed), and none of them have expressed any believe that the entire code is revocable at will because of circumstance.

Which, now that I think about it, begs the question - are you an Orthodox Jew, Reformed Jew, or something else? My first hunch is reformed, but not in any way that I've ever heard.

Erm. I'm not Jewish, but I was working on converting at one point, and what Az has been saying was backed up by at least two rabbis (one Orthodox, one Reform), and quite a few practicing Jews I talked to. One of those practicing Jews was an Orthodox male med student, and he and I had rather a long discussion on the precise topic of how and why one gets to break the Rules, seeing as he would not engage in physical contact of any sort with females in his daily life - but he was seriously considering specializing in gynecology. The general consensus of every one of these people was simple - the Rules are to be followed unless you have a really, really good reason for breaking them. Ergo, doctors can work on Saturday, male doctors can do Pap tests, and one can quite definitely say "God is a big fat poopie-head!" if it's going to save someone's life.

I believe in an afterlife that's a million times better than this life here. I believe in it 100%. Am I ready to get the hell out of dodge? Hell no, I love my life. But I don't love it enough to put eternity in jeopardy. If I'm wrong, I won't even know I existed once I'm gone. Doesn't matter how much fun I had in life, none of it will mean a damn thing. If I'm right, what's there to fear?

Oh, I see. You think that lying to save your life will rob you of the eternal afterlife.

Damn. Now we're getting into what I call--rather generally and unfairly, no doubt--Christian Syndrome.

"There is no need for me to have a worthwhile life. I will ascend to heaven soon."

"God will get me out of this situation."

I hate that. God helps those who help themselves.

Erm. I'm not Jewish, but I was working on converting at one point, and what Az has been saying was backed up by at least two rabbis (one Orthodox, one Reform), and quite a few practicing Jews I talked to. One of those practicing Jews was an Orthodox male med student, and he and I had rather a long discussion on the precise topic of how and why one gets to break the Rules, seeing as he would not engage in physical contact of any sort with females in his daily life - but he was seriously considering specializing in gynecology. The general consensus of every one of these people was simple - the Rules are to be followed unless you have a really, really good reason for breaking them. Ergo, doctors can work on Saturday, male doctors can do Pap tests, and one can quite definitely say "God is a big fat poopie-head!" if it's going to save someone's life.

I remember a big thing about a decade ago about Jewish doctors not being able to use permanent ink on the sabbath, so they would use temporary ink on saturday and have it transcribed with permanent the next day (using permanent ink was considered "work").

When I get back, I want to discuss this at length with you guys.

Erm. I'm not Jewish, but I was working on converting at one point, and what Az has been saying was backed up by at least two rabbis (one Orthodox, one Reform), and quite a few practicing Jews I talked to. One of those practicing Jews was an Orthodox male med student, and he and I had rather a long discussion on the precise topic of how and why one gets to break the Rules, seeing as he would not engage in physical contact of any sort with females in his daily life - but he was seriously considering specializing in gynecology. The general consensus of every one of these people was simple - the Rules are to be followed unless you have a really, really good reason for breaking them. Ergo, doctors can work on Saturday, male doctors can do Pap tests, and one can quite definitely say "God is a big fat poopie-head!" if it's going to save someone's life.

Thank you.

Amongst religious Jews, electricity is not used on the Sabbath and CERTAINLY not in the synagogue.

However, I occasionally hear a cellphone ringing in the synagogue on Saturday--during services, even! You may think that this is done by some rebel or some ignorant person... but no:

These are some of the most devout and religious people in our synagogue: Dr. Michael Freedman, Dr. Stan Karon, Dr. Ralph Rothstein...

Why? There's an emergency in the hospital. They are called to go help.

Though I'm a devout Christian, I would certainly hide my faith if mine/my family's life was threatened, but maintain my faith and continue to pray privately.

I believe that God understands what you have to do to protect yourself.

Though I'm a devout Christian, I would certainly hide my faith if mine/my family's life was threatened, but maintain my faith and continue to pray privately.

I believe that God understands what you have to do to protect yourself.

Indeed. 'True' Christianity.

Oh, I see. You think that lying to save your life will rob you of the eternal afterlife.

Damn. Now we're getting into what I call--rather generally and unfairly, no doubt--Christian Syndrome.

"There is no need for me to have a worthwhile life. I will ascend to heaven soon."

"God will get me out of this situation."

I hate that. God helps those who help themselves.

That's a mighty leap of logic. Because I dont' see a point in lying about who I fundamentally am to postpone the inevitable because there is no point I'm automatically a Christian. That really makes me laugh. I've full on converted religions many, many times in my life. Spent plenty of time as an athiest too. Still had that belief. Most so as an athiest. This time around, I actually had to stop and consider if I still felt that way.

That's a mighty leap of logic. Because I dont' see a point in lying about who I fundamentally am to postpone the inevitable because there is no point I'm automatically a Christian. That really makes me laugh. I've full on converted religions many, many times in my life. Spent plenty of time as an athiest too. Still had that belief. Most so as an athiest. This time around, I actually had to stop and consider if I still felt that way.

I did not say that you were Christian. I did not say that these was solely a Christian syndrome. I called myself unfair.

However, I have experienced a tendency in many devout Christians to say: "God will get me out of this situation."

Oh, I see. You think that lying to save your life will rob you of the eternal afterlife.

Damn. Now we're getting into what I call--rather generally and unfairly, no doubt--Christian Syndrome.

"There is no need for me to have a worthwhile life. I will ascend to heaven soon."

"God will get me out of this situation."

I hate that. God helps those who help themselves.

That's not quite what Snafturi said. (s)he didn't say anything that there was no need for a worthwhile life, but rather that there was something (s)he held as a higher priority. There is only a conflict if one must choose between the two.

That's not quite what Snafturi said. (s)he didn't say anything that there was no need for a worthwhile life, but rather that there was something (s)he held as a higher priority. There is only a conflict if one must choose between the two.

*ninjas Snaf*

She.

Oh, I see. You think that lying to save your life will rob you of the eternal afterlife.

Damn. Now we're getting into what I call--rather generally and unfairly, no doubt--Christian Syndrome.

"There is no need for me to have a worthwhile life. I will ascend to heaven soon."

"God will get me out of this situation."

I hate that. God helps those who help themselves.

So there's this huge flood one day, and an entire town looks like it's going to be swallowed up by the waters. And the Police and Rescue Agencies are running all over the place trying to get people to safety.

So they send the rescue boat over to this house where a guy's sitting on the roof with the water lapping around his ankles and they say "Come on, quickly, there isn't much time"

To which he says "Nah, it's ok, God will Provide"

So about an hour later they're zooming past in the boat again and they notice the guy's still there, only the water's up to his waist, almost at the top of the roof.. "Quick" they say, get in the boat, it's going to get worst before it gets better.

"Nah, don't worry - God will Provide"

An hour after that a rescue helicopter flies over the area and notices the guy, who must be standing on the peak of the roof now, with only his head and shoulders out of the water. "GRAB THE ROPE!" they cry "IT'S YOUR ONLY HOPE!"

"Don't worry" he replies calmly "God will provide."

So he gets drowned of course. And he goes to heaven, and is a little ticked off with god for drowing him like that, and expresses his concern saying "I had FAITH, I BELIEVED in you - and still you didn't help me"

"HELP YOU?!" God replies "I sent you two boats and a helicopter! What more did you want?"

So there's this huge flood one day, and an entire town looks like it's going to be swallowed up by the waters. And the Police and Rescue Agencies are running all over the place trying to get people to safety.

So they send the rescue boat over to this house where a guy's sitting on the roof with the water lapping around his ankles and they say "Come on, quickly, there isn't much time"

To which he says "Nah, it's ok, God will Provide"

So about an hour later they're zooming past in the boat again and they notice the guy's still there, only the water's up to his waist, almost at the top of the roof.. "Quick" they say, get in the boat, it's going to get worst before it gets better.

"Nah, don't worry - God will Provide"

An hour after that a rescue helicopter flies over the area and notices the guy, who must be standing on the peak of the roof now, with only his head and shoulders out of the water. "GRAB THE ROPE!" they cry "IT'S YOUR ONLY HOPE!"

"Don't worry" he replies calmly "God will provide."

So he gets drowned of course. And he goes to heaven, and is a little ticked off with god for drowing him like that, and expresses his concern saying "I had FAITH, I BELIEVED in you - and still you didn't help me"

"HELP YOU?!" God replies "I sent you two boats and a helicopter! What more did you want?"

LOL!

Indeed. 'True' Christianity.

One cannot serve the Lord if one is dead.

One cannot serve the Lord if one is dead.

Quite.

Erm. I'm not Jewish, but I was working on converting at one point, and what Az has been saying was backed up by at least two rabbis (one Orthodox, one Reform), and quite a few practicing Jews I talked to. One of those practicing Jews was an Orthodox male med student, and he and I had rather a long discussion on the precise topic of how and why one gets to break the Rules, seeing as he would not engage in physical contact of any sort with females in his daily life - but he was seriously considering specializing in gynecology. The general consensus of every one of these people was simple - the Rules are to be followed unless you have a really, really good reason for breaking them. Ergo, doctors can work on Saturday, male doctors can do Pap tests, and one can quite definitely say "God is a big fat poopie-head!" if it's going to save someone's life.

Amongst religious Jews, electricity is not used on the Sabbath and CERTAINLY not in the synagogue.

However, I occasionally hear a cellphone ringing in the synagogue on Saturday--during services, even! You may think that this is done by some rebel or some ignorant person... but no:

These are some of the most devout and religious people in our synagogue: Dr. Michael Freedman, Dr. Stan Karon, Dr. Ralph Rothstein...

Why? There's an emergency in the hospital. They are called to go help.

Now that makes sense.

Christianity holds laws and tenets about preserving the sanctity of life and being a vessel of God's love for mankind through your actions

I think religious fundamentalism goes too far when the specific laws and tenets themselves become more important to adhere to than the actual reason they were created in the first place.

---

I believe that God understands what you have to do to protect yourself.

Well said.

I did not say that you were Christian. I did not say that these was solely a Christian syndrome. I called myself unfair.

However, I have experienced a tendency in many devout Christians to say: "God will get me out of this situation."

I can just speak for myself, but the time I was most likely willing to lie about my faith was when I was agnostic. As an athiest, I figure "what the hell?" As an athiest I saw life as 100% irrelevant the second after I died. So what if I live to be 1,000 or only live another hour. I'm not going to know the difference.

As a neo-pagan I belived in random reincarnation so I was a little sqeamish of the proposition of dying for my faith. I figured my life now was pretty damned good, I wasn't to eager to spin the roulette wheel and possibly end up a severely disbled person in a very destitute country. At the same time I was afraid of not dying for my faith if that highly unlikely situation arose for fear that I'd have to make that choice again, only as a severly disabled third world person.

One cannot serve the Lord if one is dead.

I agree.

(see my post halfway down page two)

I think religious fundamentalism goes too far when the specific laws and tenets themselves become more important to adhere to than the actual reason they were created in the first place.

Scratch and replace with:

I think that things in general--especially religion and governments--go too far when the specific laws and tenets themselves become more important to adhere to than the actual reason they were created in the first place.

Very true. Or, as often happens, end up contradicting the original reason they were placed.

That's not quite what Snafturi said. (s)he didn't say anything that there was no need for a worthwhile life, but rather that there was something (s)he held as a higher priority. There is only a conflict if one must choose between the two.

Yes that. :)

Way I see it, I'm not one who's slated to be a Martyr for Christ.

I'm way more useful assisting others, and since I'm already saved, what I tell other people is my business. If it will keep me, my family, or anyone else alive, I'll say what I have to say to achieve that end. I've got things that need to be done here on Earth that death will definitely get in the way of.

That being said, I won't renounce my faith if I don't have to, but if there's folks gonna shoot me if I don't go along, I'll go along until such time as I can be more effective, preferably by undermining the regime from the inside and slaughtering the bastards when their backs are turned. Die for my faith? You first.

Can't do that if I'm dead.

This falls under "Pick your battles." And "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and Render unto God what is God's"

At least, that's how I justify it in my mind, and when I'm standing tall before the Son of Man, that's exactly how I will present it. If he goes for it, I'm cool. If not, I'm cool with that, too. My attitude is "The most good for the most number of people."

Can't do that if I'm dead.

I'm shooting more for an Oskar Schindler kind of position, rather than an Apostle Stephen kind of position, if you know what I mean.

And I can't do that if I'm dead.

I already lie about a lot of less significant things; Why should this be any different?

GP

*ninjas Snaf*

She.

That was my gut instinct, but I figured I'd do that anyway.

Scratch and replace with:

I think that things in general--especially religion and governments--go too far when the specific laws and tenets themselves become more important to adhere to than the actual reason they were created in the first place.

Very true. Or, as often happens, end up contradicting the original reason they were placed.

Well scratched. I agree.

In response to all the bible quotations being fired around, and the topic in general:

If you renounce Christ on earth then you will go to:

a) Hell
b) Not necessarily Hell


For most of us, it seems that our standpoints in this discussion all come down to whether we believe a) or b).

Myself, I believe b). I do not believe that lying about my religion in order to save mine or my family's lives will condemn me to Hell.

Yes, there have been many bible passages thrown around so far that contradict that, where Jesus and various apostles say a). However there are many contradictions within the bible itself (eg the bible says: "God is love"; "love is never jealous"; "God is a jealous god ", and your interpretation of them that determines what you believe. You cannot possibly believe everything in the bible as fact because there are too many contradictions, you have to think about what interpretations you choose to follow. It says in the bible that homosexuality is evil, and I certainly don't believe that, and whoever works on the Sabbath should be put to death, I think that is ridiculous.

I see God as a loving and understanding god, and I don't believe that He would condemn anyone to Hell for lying, even renouncing Him to stay alive.

There are many Christians who say "The bible says that the poor are always with us, so therefore they aren't a priority". Many Christians believe that you can get into heaven simply by introspective prayer and piety, without having to help anyone. Other Christians believe that following Jesus' example means helping your fellow humans whenever and wherever you can. Being a vessel of God's love for mankind. I certainly think God would understand whatever you say under gunpoint when you're saying it to save your life so you can continue doing good works, or to save others' lives.

However I also believe that God would understand even if someone renounced Him under gunpoint just to selfishly save their own skin. God would understand that [I]the person has faults, just like any human being.

Faith is a very personal thing and you have to decide for yourself what you believe, that can mean cutting yourself off from all organised religion in order to come to your own conclusions or it can mean following very single tenet word for word of a major religion, or anything in between, they're all choices.

Question to all those people who believe a) and selected not to lie in the poll:

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven?

and

Do you believe that anyone who is not a Christian, ie atheist or someone of another faith, will go to Hell?

Well, considering I am an atheist, I could lie. ;D No faith, nothing to lose.

Would I lie about my faith to avoid a bullet to my or my families head/heads? Yep.

I believe the gods would rather have me do something productive than have my or my families brains splattered on the nice new paintwork. I also believe they would take a dim view of me sacraficing the family for my own moral high ground.

Well, considering I am an atheist, I could lie. ;D No faith, nothing to lose.

Change the question round for yourself and respond for:

If you were at gunpoint and asked to convincingly swear that you were a Christian and that you believed that Jesus Christ is the way to Heaven and rose from the dead...etc, in short, everything that you DON'T believe, in order to save yours or your family's lives?

Would I lie about my faith to avoid a bullet to my or my families head/heads? Yep.

I believe the gods would rather have me do something productive than have my or my families brains splattered on the nice new paintwork. I also believe they would take a dim view of me sacraficing the family for my own moral high ground.

Well said. I believe God respects decisions to help your fellow man more than pedantic following of specific tenets and laws.

Well said. I believe God respects decisions to help your fellow man more than pedantic following of specific tenets and laws.

http://lolchrist.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/lolabsolve.jpg

:D

I would say I believed whatever I was told to if it saved lives.

Yep. I don't beleive in any gods. My life & my family's lives are far more important to me.

You wrote "defiantly." Did you mean "definitely?" If so, your typo would've altered the meaning of the sentence by substituting a completely different yet contextually plausible word. I kinda hoped that was the case when I saw it. :p

Ah....
That's me relying on the firefox spell checker,and not reading my own posts :D

Sure, I think I'd do almost everything to save my own life or that of my family, I don't see why I shouldn't?

Would you lie about your faith to save your life?
For example: If you were a christian and were told that you would be killed if you were in fact a christian, would you claim to be of another faith to save your life?

Why or why not?

How about to save your family's lives?
My Following examples are ways to avoid the question or twist the meanings of words.
well if put in a dangerous situation, you don't have to necessarily lie outright. You could just avoid the question, and say "it's very complicated at the moment, and i've got a funeral to go to so if you leave your phone number i'll get back to you".
Or perhaps you could say, "i haven't planned to follow any religion with zeal or dogma, merely as a way of existance, so in that respect i don't have a specific faith in any Gods or practices."
Or you could hit them with a hammer and run away, but i'm assuming that's illegal in the place this occurs.

or you could say, no i'm not a Christian. Then later remind yourself that this is true, because you follow the christian faith, but you yourself have not perfected the practise because you've still to read the bible fully.
Or you could say i'm not a Christian, and then remind yourself that in order to be a christian, you have to be true to your faith and not necessarily to a murderer, therefore you have justified telling a non truth.

My Following examples are ways to avoid the question or twist the meanings of words.
well if put in a dangerous situation, you don't have to necessarily lie outright. You could just avoid the question, and say "it's very complicated at the moment, and i've got a funeral to go to so if you leave your phone number i'll get back to you".
Or perhaps you could say, "i haven't planned to follow any religion with zeal or dogma, merely as a way of existance, so in that respect i don't have a specific faith in any Gods or practices."
Or you could hit them with a hammer and run away, but i'm assuming that's illegal in the place this occurs.


I was assuming that given the people in question are threatening to kill you if you don't recant whatever it is you believe that they were not going to settle for anything less than that. Tryign to evade the question would probabaly be taken as a refusal and treated accordingly. When there are psychos with guns - and you don't - it's a good idea to play along nicely with whatever twisted fantasy is going on inside their head.

Although I've never come across anyone quite that extreme I have had hte displeasure of running into those kinds of people where I was outnumbered and on hostile ground. Scary people.

I was assuming that given the people in question are threatening to kill you if you don't recant whatever it is you believe that they were not going to settle for anything less than that. Tryign to evade the question would probabaly be taken as a refusal and treated accordingly. When there are psychos with guns - and you don't - it's a good idea to play along nicely with whatever twisted fantasy is going on inside their head.

Although I've never come across anyone quite that extreme I have had hte displeasure of running into those kinds of people where I was outnumbered and on hostile ground. Scary people.
If the people threatening you don't like it when you avoid the question, it follows that almost any answer you give will result in a unwanted consequence, so the answer you give will ultimately be the one they want and not necessarily what you believe.

Also if these people are demanding a certain answer, then the question also is asking are you willing to die for saying one thing while not dieing for the other. It seems like the question is an appeals to consequences fallacy, not really aiming for the truth.
So again it's not true to life. There's always a way to avoid a question.
l

The history of humanity is littered with people who pretended belief rather than die. The Marranos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marrano) in Spain come to mind.

Personally, I think that, if there is a God, this purported deity put us here to survive and not to die for something as synthetic as a religion.

There are causes worth dying for - freedom, survival, family. Religion is a construct, not a reality thus not worth my life.

I lie about my faith just to avoid arguments with my wife's family.

There are causes worth dying for - freedom, survival, family. Religion is a construct, not a reality thus not worth my life.

I'm glad you would die to survive :p

I'm glad you would die to survive :p

Oops. I, of course, meant survival of the species. Sorree. :D

The first two chapters of Job should clear things up. I realize that's a bit of reading, but basically Satan challenged God two ways - that man would only serve him when it was advantageous to do so, and that a man would give anything in order to keep living.

These were explicitly brought up during Job's time, but had been implicit arguments since Adam & Eve.

So again it boils down to your interpretation being that god doesn't care whether you actually believe or not, just that you convince other people that you believe?

I voted yes, but it depends. Maybe it's not worth living in the kind of place that kills off certain religions.

Question to all those people who believe a) and selected not to lie in the poll:

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven?

and

Do you believe that anyone who is not a Christian, ie atheist or someone of another faith, will go to Hell?

What on earth does that have to do with the topic at hand?

If the people threatening you don't like it when you avoid the question, it follows that almost any answer you give will result in a unwanted consequence, so the answer you give will ultimately be the one they want and not necessarily what you believe.

Also if these people are demanding a certain answer, then the question also is asking are you willing to die for saying one thing while not dieing for the other. It seems like the question is an appeals to consequences fallacy, not really aiming for the truth.
So again it's not true to life. There's always a way to avoid a question.
l

I'm not really sure what your saying here? In my view it's not really complex, just a case of somsone threatening me/family with murder if I don't say whatever they want to hear about the gods, my assumption being that they want something pretty specific, which I would play along with.

Would you lie about your faith to save your life?
For example: If you were a christian and were told that you would be killed if you were in fact a christian, would you claim to be of another faith to save your life?

Why or why not?

How about to save your family's lives?

Yeah sure why not. We lie all the time, anyway whats so important about not lieing about what religoin you are?

Question to all those people who believe a) and selected not to lie in the poll:

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven?

and

Do you believe that anyone who is not a Christian, ie atheist or someone of another faith, will go to Hell?

What on earth does that have to do with the topic at hand?

It has a lot to do with the topic at hand.

If you believe a) [see below], then presumably you believe that people of other religions are going to Hell.

I was wondering if this were true or not for the people in this thread who elected not to lie about their faith.

And indeed, if you elected NOT to lie, then may I ask you:

Do you believe a) below? Is that your primary motive for not lying about your faith in the hypothetical?

In response to all the bible quotations being fired around, and the topic in general:

If you renounce Christ on earth then you will go to:

a) Hell
b) Not necessarily Hell


For most of us, it seems that our standpoints in this discussion all come down to whether we believe a) or b).

Myself, I believe b). I do not believe that lying about my religion in order to save mine or my family's lives will condemn me to Hell.

Yes, there have been many bible passages thrown around so far that contradict that, where Jesus and various apostles say a). However there are many contradictions within the bible itself (eg the bible says: "God is love"; "love is never jealous"; "God is a jealous god ", and your interpretation of them that determines what you believe. You cannot possibly believe everything in the bible as fact because there are too many contradictions, you have to think about what interpretations you choose to follow. It says in the bible that homosexuality is evil, and I certainly don't believe that, and whoever works on the Sabbath should be put to death, I think that is ridiculous.

I see God as a loving and understanding god, and I don't believe that He would condemn anyone to Hell for lying, even renouncing Him to stay alive.

There are many Christians who say "The bible says that the poor are always with us, so therefore they aren't a priority". Many Christians believe that you can get into heaven simply by introspective prayer and piety, without having to help anyone. Other Christians believe that following Jesus' example means helping your fellow humans whenever and wherever you can. Being a vessel of God's love for mankind. I certainly think God would understand whatever you say under gunpoint when you're saying it to save your life so you can continue doing good works, or to save others' lives.

However I also believe that God would understand even if someone renounced Him under gunpoint just to selfishly save their own skin. God would understand that [I]the person has faults, just like any human being.

Faith is a very personal thing and you have to decide for yourself what you believe, that can mean cutting yourself off from all organised religion in order to come to your own conclusions or it can mean following very single tenet word for word of a major religion, or anything in between, they're all choices.

Yes, I would lie about my faith to save the ones I love. If I go to Hell for it, so be it.

Yes, of course.

How many conflicts could have been avoided if people had the brains to just lie.

I follow the Divine Trickster and Eris (still haven't decided if I see her as a feminine form of the Divine Trickster or the Divine Trickster's sometimes Consort.). So, basically I'll lie about that or just about anything else as long as it protects someone, teaches a lesson, or amuses me.

Lying is a weakness, and by that poll, so many are weak as wet toilet paper

you either believe in your faith or you don't, there is no 'play make believe'

if you're prepared to talk BS about your religion, you don't believe in it strong enough.


If you follow a Trickster deity lying can be a sacrament.

You should not lie, but it is infinitely worse to allow your death.

Why not?

I wouldn't lie to save my own life. I mean, why would I?

Because it saves your life?

Seriously, that makes no sense.

Saving your life makes no sense?

As I don't have a set faith to begin with, my answer is easily yes. Even more so if it would save my family.

A question that would be more difficult for me to answer is: Would I adopt someone else's faith to save my life? In other words, if someone said to me, "Become *random belief system* or die!" I would have to think about that one really hard depending upon the religion.

As I don't have a set faith to begin with, my answer is easily yes. Even more so if it would save my family.

A question that would be more difficult for me to answer is: Would I adopt someone else's faith to save my life? In other words, if someone said to me, "Become *random belief system* or die!" I would have to think about that one really hard depending upon the religion.

The latter is when you adopt the strategy of the "rice Christians" (can't recall if this was in China or Japan) who would go to the missionaries with the equivalent of "Yes I am Christian, give me the free rice" and then return home saying "Thank Buddha/the Ancestors, those Christians gave me free rice".

As I don't have a set faith to begin with, my answer is easily yes. Even more so if it would save my family.

A question that would be more difficult for me to answer is: Would I adopt someone else's faith to save my life? In other words, if someone said to me, "Become *random belief system* or die!" I would have to think about that one really hard depending upon the religion.

I'd be willing to go through the motions of making it look like I was the follower of some religion if it would save my family.

The latter is when you adopt the strategy of the "rice Christians" (can't recall if this was in China or Japan) who would go to the missionaries with the equivalent of "Yes I am Christian, give me the free rice" and then return home saying "Thank Buddha/the Ancestors, those Christians gave me free rice".

I know people like that. Around here I think they're called "food bank Christians".

I'd be willing to go through the motions of making it look like I was the follower of some religion if it would save my family.

I think I would do just about anything to save my family as well, but then I got to thinking even deeper (look out) and considered the possibility of being forced to choose between myself and my family or a religion that, say, might require the sacrifice of multitudes of innocents. That one left me with a big question mark hovering over my head.

Would you lie about your faith to save your life?
For example: If you were a christian and were told that you would be killed if you were in fact a christian, would you claim to be of another faith to save your life?

Why or why not?

How about to save your family's lives?

I'd like to say no, I would never hide my faith, even if it meant death. But honestly I cannot tell until the situation happens.

4-4;13623181']I certainly would, simply saying a few words to save my (or others) life would be an easy way out of whatever mess I was in!


But that's based upon the fact that I'm an atheist pretending to be a Christian for this situation, maybe if I really was a Christian posting in this thread, the answer would be different.

This, except replace Atheist with Agnostic and you can substitute any other religion with Christianity.

It has a lot to do with the topic at hand.
It's treading very closely on a threadjack and I like this topic. Dy was nice enough to split that question off and give the topic its own thread. This isn't a Christian-centric topic and it's managed to go on for 11 pages very civily, it would be nice if it could stay that way.

Because it saves your life?
I believe I'm going some place a million times better when I die. Like I said before I'm in no hurry to get there, I like this life. But I see no reason to lie about it. If I'm wrong then there's nothing and I won't have even known I existed to begin with. Just like those hours that pass during general anathesia, without the waking up part. If I'm right or someone else's beliefs are right, then death is either the beginning of the next chapter or a conciouslessness sleep that I never wake from.


Saving your life makes no sense?
Saving my life to what end? The next life, in my belief eternity, is infinitely more important to me than this life. I love every second of this life, but it's not worth it to me to keep it by sacrificing one of the few things I 100% believe in.

If the people threatening you don't like it when you avoid the question, it follows that almost any answer you give will result in a unwanted consequence, so the answer you give will ultimately be the one they want and not necessarily what you believe.

Untrue. Anton Chiguh was perfectly content to leave alone the people who got the coin-toss right.

But when they dodged that easy question... boy did he get upset.

Call it.

to the OP

I have lied about my faith to go on a mission trip to Alaska and so that I wouldn't get kicked out of catholic high school.

I would lie to save my life. I would not lie to save my family however.

You shoulda been here for the Kant thread, then. :p

Nonono. Discussions of Kant make me beat my head against solid things like desks. :(

Well.. one could truly believe that lying ultimately does more damage. Or that some things are worth more than their own life (and that of their family).

This is probably where the fundamental breakdown is: I don't think there is anything more important than the lives of the people I love. There are a very few things worse than death, but lying about a personal belief is not one of them for me. A God who would not understand that is not a God I would want to know.

As far as I'm concerned, I'd lie about my faith without hesitation if someone's life is at stake. After all does saying "I'm not Christian" automatically mean that you aren't Christian anymore even if your beliefs haven't changed?

Would I lie about my faith to avoid a bullet to my or my families head/heads? Yep.

I believe the gods would rather have me do something productive than have my or my families brains splattered on the nice new paintwork. I also believe they would take a dim view of me sacrificing the family for my own moral high ground.

I have to agree. Any God that greeted me and my dead family in the Afterlife with, "Good job, you didn't sell me out! Sorry about your mom and pops" is not one I'd want to worship.

The latter is when you adopt the strategy of the "rice Christians" (can't recall if this was in China or Japan) who would go to the missionaries with the equivalent of "Yes I am Christian, give me the free rice" and then return home saying "Thank Buddha/the Ancestors, those Christians gave me free rice".

And good on them, I say. I'm not a Christian, but I know many people who are, and charity with strings attached doesn't seem very "Christian" to me.

to the OP

I have lied about my faith to go on a mission trip to Alaska and so that I wouldn't get kicked out of catholic high school.

I would lie to save my life. I would not lie to save my family however.

Ouch. Strained relationship?

depending on the circumstances i might have to toss a mental coin.

i think if i was going to die for something, it had better be something that would actually make they world the had to live in a better place for everyone who wasn't dying with me.

i'm in no big hurry to die for any cause, but to prevent the world i was living from becoming completely not worth living in, might actually make a certain degree of sense.

don't get me wrong. i will certainly honor and salute everyone who has done so. especially for beliefs that make a certain great deal of sense to me.

but the baha'i martyrs were all better folks then i am gunga din.

also, i think no one really knows till their in that situation, and we are all capable of surprising ourselves both ways.

probably depends on how stuborn i'm feeling on a particular day.

or the toss of a coin. or what song was being played on the radio. or if a butterfly lights on the end of my nose, or really, who the heck knows.

its all well and noble to say that we would, but really, the only people who really know that they would are those who have died doing so.

=^^=
.../\...

Would you lie about your faith to save your life?
...
How about to save your family's lives?

Yes, I wouldn't mind lying in such cases. You know, being an atheist can be a blessing sometimes.

Would you lie about your faith to save your life?
For example: If you were a christian and were told that you would be killed if you were in fact a christian, would you claim to be of another faith to save your life?

Why or why not?

How about to save your family's lives?
Absolutely I would lie about it. Hell, I'd go over-the-top and pretend to be the most devout believer they wanted, and I would work to gain the reputation of the Ideal Believer in their community. That way, when I escaped and broke the news that I was actually an EVIL ATHEIST the whole time, it would be even more of a crushing blow.

Absolutely I would lie about it. Hell, I'd go over-the-top and pretend to be the most devout believer they wanted, and I would work to gain the reputation of the Ideal Believer in their community. That way, when I escaped and broke the news that I was actually an EVIL ATHEIST the whole time, it would be even more of a crushing blow.

Pfft, my reality altering lie would be way cooler.

I would lie for mild amusement

I think I would do just about anything to save my family as well, but then I got to thinking even deeper (look out) and considered the possibility of being forced to choose between myself and my family or a religion that, say, might require the sacrifice of multitudes of innocents. That one left me with a big question mark hovering over my head.

That would be tough, I'd still choose my family over a 'multitude of innocents' that I do not know.

It's treading very closely on a threadjack and I like this topic. Dy was nice enough to split that question off and give the topic its own thread. This isn't a Christian-centric topic and it's managed to go on for 11 pages very civily, it would be nice if it could stay that way.
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/Dziekuje.gif
I believe I'm going some place a million times better when I die. Like I said before I'm in no hurry to get there, I like this life. But I see no reason to lie about it. If I'm wrong then there's nothing and I won't have even known I existed to begin with. Just like those hours that pass during general anathesia, without the waking up part. If I'm right or someone else's beliefs are right, then death is either the beginning of the next chapter or a conciouslessness sleep that I never wake from.
Good point
Saving my life to what end? The next life, in my belief eternity, is infinitely more important to me than this life. I love every second of this life, but it's not worth it to me to keep it by sacrificing one of the few things I 100% believe in.
The question comes up that would this be considered suicide?
The premise is that you know you'll die if you do אּ, so would doing something that you know is lethal qualify in god's eyes as suicide? Also assuming that it does qualify as suicide, which would be worse in god's eyes: suicide or lying about your faith?

Unless your family is hateful, I'm thinking voting for option 4 kinda makes you an ass.

Unless your family is hateful, I'm thinking voting for option 4 kinda makes you an ass.

I don't know, it could just mean that you have seriously strained relations with your family and thusly value your faith more than them.

I don't know, it could just mean that you have seriously strained relations with your family and thusly value your faith more than them.

Oh yeah, 'hateful' might not have been the best word to use, just what flowed nicely, but that was the scenario I had in mind there.

The people that said "i would rather die than renege on my faith".

Your all jesting right??

Normal people (yes that even includes some of the God-worshipers) will do what is required to survive. If that means stating a few untruths, on any subject, then so beit.

Normal people do not give thier lives up for a worthless belief.

As far as I'm concerned, I'd lie about my faith without hesitation if someone's life is at stake. After all does saying "I'm not Christian" automatically mean that you aren't Christian anymore even if your beliefs haven't changed?

You should ask St.Peter. After all, when threatened, he renounced Christ not once but thrice.

Normal people do not give thier lives up for a worthless belief.

But then again a lot of people don't consider their belief to be worthless, regardless of what you might think of it.

But then again a lot of people don't consider their belief to be worthless, regardless of what you might think of it.

Also some religions do require some sort of heroism from their followers.

You should ask St.Peter. After all, when threatened, he renounced Christ not once but thrice.

Unless he lied about that ;)

It's treading very closely on a threadjack and I like this topic. Dy was nice enough to split that question off and give the topic its own thread. This isn't a Christian-centric topic and it's managed to go on for 11 pages very civily, it would be nice if it could stay that way.

You're completely right and I apologise. I wasn't trying to hijack the thread in any way and it was very unthinking of me to phrase something so Christian-centrically, that wasn't what I intended to do.

I was just curious as to what the majority reason is for people saying that they would NOT lie about their faith to save their life.

"I believe that lying about my faith denies me a place in the afterlife/eternally damns me/causes severe detriment to my afterlife."

I was presuming that the reason for most people choosing NOT to lie was that they believed the above statement, and if you believe that then it makes sense not to lie, as then you would die in this world but be eternally rewarded in the next.

I was just curious: everyone who voted NOT to lie, was this your reason?

I was wondering whether that would be the majority reason or whether it wouldn't be.

yes

I said I wouldn't lie to save my own skin, but I would to save anyone else's.

My personal beliefs are governed by empathy; the other is the basis of my world view. Generally, standing up for these beliefs is the best way to adhere to them, but if it came to giving them up to protect others, I'd have no problem doing that.

I lie on a weekly basis just so I can sit through the service my mother forces me to attend without getting hassled. Come to think of it, I'd lie about it for a cookie, maybe even half of one.

I would want to lie to save my life, but I'm not sure I could bring myself to claim to have faith. Publicly declaring a belief I'm convinced is irrational would be really difficult for me.

I would want to lie to save my life, but I'm not sure I could bring myself to claim to have faith. Publicly declaring a belief I'm convinced is irrational would be really difficult for me.

I would like better to die than to disclaim my christian faith. If it was my family though, I might lie about it anyway, pretty hard decision.

When there are psychos with guns - and you don't - it's a good idea to play along nicely with whatever twisted fantasy is going on inside their head.


Which is why I RARELY don't.

It's better to be one of the psychoes with the guns. That way, when they get these cockamamie ideas, I'm sitting on the "safe" side of the firing line.

And I'll lie to get there.

GP

Which is why I RARELY don't.

It's better to be one of the psychoes with the guns. That way, when they get these cockamamie ideas, I'm sitting on the "safe" side of the firing line.

And I'll lie to get there.

GP

I like the way you think. :D

I'd like to say no, I would never hide my faith, even if it meant death. But honestly I cannot tell until the situation happens.

That really is strange. Why not, what do you belive God would do to you if you did?

The question comes up that would this be considered suicide? The premise is that you know you'll due if you do אּ, so would doing something that you know is lethal qualify in god's eyes as suicide? Also assuming that it does qualify as suicide, which would be worse in god's eyes: suicide or lying about your faith?
That's an interesting question and I had to think about it for a bit. My concept of God is a loving one that wouldn't give me a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. Having said that, I think I'd just have to trust my heart and my gut if ever faced with that situation and trust that the God I believe in would understand I did my best and therefore wouldn't hold it against me. Then again, I believe in a loving and nice God and not a scary bipolar one, so that kind of sets the tone for my actions.

You're completely right and I apologise. I wasn't trying to hijack the thread in any way and it was very unthinking of me to phrase something so Christian-centrically, that wasn't what I intended to do.

I was just curious as to what the majority reason is for people saying that they would NOT lie about their faith to save their life.

"I believe that lying about my faith denies me a place in the afterlife/eternally damns me/causes severe detriment to my afterlife."

I was presuming that the reason for most people choosing NOT to lie was that they believed the above statement, and if you believe that then it makes sense not to lie, as then you would die in this world but be eternally rewarded in the next.

I was just curious: everyone who voted NOT to lie, was this your reason?

I was wondering whether that would be the majority reason or whether it wouldn't be.

Thanks for the clarification!:)

To answer the question, for me, I don't think that denying God in a life or death situation would lead to damnation (if there is such a thing). The God I believe in understands we are human, especially in a life or death situation. We do the best we can, and that's all I believe anyone (especially God) could ask of us.

For me, it's a matter of integrity, faith and above all, stubborness; not the fear of punishment. It's also what I think I'd do at this stage in my life. And at the end of the day, I really don't know how I'd react. I think I'd hold my ground, mostly because I know the more stressed I am the more stubborn I get.



I hope that sums things up well, I'm exhausted so I might not be making a lot of sense.

That's an interesting question and I had to think about it for a bit. My concept of God is a loving one that wouldn't give me a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. Having said that, I think I'd just have to trust my heart and my gut if ever faced with that situation and trust that the God I believe in would understand I did my best and therefore wouldn't hold it against me. Then again, I believe in a loving and nice God and not a scary bipolar one, so that kind of sets the tone for my actions.
Fair enough...
I hope that sums things up well, I'm exhausted so I might not be making a lot of sense.
It made sense to me...