NationStates Jolt Archive

Recently me and a friend were talking about random stuff, when the conversation came around to clones and what right they would have, (as you do). I said they would have almost none and be consider less then human. He disagreed and said they would be given the same right as a original human. We were both assume that the clone was grown in a artificial womb. MY reasoning went that people would see there clone as there property and many religion would see clone as lacking a soul so worth less then a human.

What do you guy think?

its alive and stuff

plus clone you could screw your girlfriend which is more or less a requirement for citizenship these days anyway...:p

if I was pro-life I could really make some good satire right now

If you treat clones as subhuman, you're begging for an Uprising.

I think every human has an inherit right to his own DNA. He is to decide whether it should be used to make clones or not.

however, once he decided to allow a clone to exist, the created close is to all we know, just as much a human and a separate individual with an own body and mind.
A clone would wield the very same rights as any normal human.

In case a clone is created without consent of the donor, the creator is liable for compensation, but the clone may not be harmed due to its status as human, and the fact that the clone itself is innocent of any crime.

your clone would be a human being. he would have all the right of any human including inheritance. you would be making your own identical twin brother.

Clones would have to be afforded the exact same rights as anyone else. They are fully human individuals capable of rational thought and developing their own consciousness.

To say that the clone was to be born as a slave, you have said in other words that a man was not to be born a man.

Clones would have to be afforded the exact same rights as anyone else. They are fully human individuals capable of rational thought and developing their own consciousness.

To say that the clone was to be born as a slave, you have said in other words that a man was not to be born a man.

Oh i agree that all humans (including clone in my situation) should have rights, but would Both religion allow them the soul that they would need to be accepted in parts of the world? And would the un-educated see it that way?

What do you guy think?

If you're talking about real, living, full grown clones of people they should have the same rights as you and me since they're separate persons. Personship isn't derived from DNA or what kind of womb one grew in.

i think i need to clarify, would they be given those right by the worlds government? They would make excellent troops (you can cherry pick the best physical specimens and raise them in barracks so they use to total obenace) and the majority of people are uneducated fools.

Also many religion mention the women role in child birth and you take that away and many would not see them as human, unless we got some very progressive religious idiot... sorry i mean leaders

If you treat clones as subhuman, you're begging for an Uprising.

Four-year shelf life? Wait, that doesn't work. :p

Four-year shelf life? Wait, that doesn't work. :p

First blade runner refenance yea
thought it be earlier

Same rights. They would be no different then the person who was cloned. Saying that a clone is less then human is like saying your twin brother is less then human.

I'm personally religious and i don't believe in human cloning. However, the blame could not be attached to the clone, a mere child, who would have full rights.

Oh i agree that all humans (including clone in my situation) should have rights, but would Both religion allow them the soul that they would need to be accepted in parts of the world? And would the un-educated see it that way?

yes. the same as "test tube" babies are.

No rights. Then it would be easier to justify using them as slaves! :)

yes. the same as "test tube" babies are.

but this would not even involve a women to bring to term and may not even involve a human women for eggs shells

See the American Civil War.

That's pretty much what will happen.

Only with clones instead of black people...





And cloned black people...

See the American Civil War.

That's pretty much what will happen.

Only with clones instead of black people...





And cloned black people...

That i can see

Clones are basically people with the same DNA. Kinda like twins, but I haven't heard anyone debating twins' rights.

Oh i agree that all humans (including clone in my situation) should have rights, but would Both religion allow them the soul that they would need to be accepted in parts of the world? And would the un-educated see it that way?

I can't speak for religion, but I would hope they'd find the humanity to consider them as fellow humans.

Clones created by current methods would almost certainly have full rights. After all, these clones would grow up the same as normal humans (though they might have shorter lifespans). And there would be a considerable age gap between the clone and the original.

The most likely scenario for clones, in my opinion, is that depicted in Star Wars Episode II. No, not the clone army. I'm talking about Jango and Boba Fett. Jango Fett wants to have a child. But he is either a) really bad at maintaining a relationship, b) infertile, or c) gay. So he clones himself, and raises the clone, Boba, as his son. Boba turns out to be a clone in almost every respect, following his father's footsteps as a bounty hunter.

Alternatively, take an infertile couple. They want to have a child, and they want it to be THEIR child, THEIR flesh and blood. So they clone one of them - how they decide who is irrelevant. They raise the resulting child. Nobody except their friends and family (who would have known of their attempts to concieve) would need to know that their child was a clone.

I know many religions have objections to cloning. But most object to the process of cloning. There will be fundamentalist nutjobs that consider clones to be abominations, but I can't see most religions trying to restrict clone rights. Indeed, I could see religious organizations fighting FOR clone rights. Particularly in the second case.

I think they will be used as organ farms, treated a subhuman by most people while a few will see them as being equal. But that's what I think would happen, not what should happen.

The most likely scenario for clones, in my opinion, is that depicted in Star Wars Episode II. No, not the clone army. I'm talking about Jango and Boba Fett. Jango Fett wants to have a child. But he is either a) really bad at maintaining a relationship, b) infertile, or c) gay. So he clones himself, and raises the clone, Boba, as his son. Boba turns out to be a clone in almost every respect, following his father's footsteps as a bounty hunter.

I know many religions have objections to cloning. But most object to the process of cloning. There will be fundamentalist nutjobs that consider clones to be abominations, but I can't see most religions trying to restrict clone rights. Indeed, I could see religious organizations fighting FOR clone rights. Particularly in the second case.

Well i still see a slowly grown but effective clone army personally :p
I hope it go that well, but i can see clone being thought of as second class citizens, kinda like apartheid for clones, being grown as spar organs and use in experiment instead of animal testing as there not human.

i think i need to clarify, would they be given those right by the worlds government? They would make excellent troops (you can cherry pick the best physical specimens and raise them in barracks so they use to total obenace) and the majority of people are uneducated fools.


You are just stealing an idea from the National Issues that we get - it said the same thing, hand pick the genes and make super soldiers:D

I say we take it a step further and engineer the clones to be Space Marines like out of Warhammer 40K:)

A clone is a human being just like any other; the method of birth is meaningless, and anyone who considers a clone less than human is doing nothing other than debasing the value of that life in the same way that societies past did with their slaves or their women.

I actually asked a pastor if clones would have souls a couple years ago. His answer was that every human body is the house of an eternal soul and a house is not left empty just because it was built from the same blueprint as another house.

I doubt clones would be discriminated more than test tube babies are. How would people know who to discriminate, ask everyone they meet if they are originals or clones?

As for the idea that clones will make good soldiers or slaves, they would be no better or worse in the role than the original. Genetically engineered people are more likely candidates for the role of subhumans than mere copies. Edit out their imagination and intelligence so they will be satisfied with a life of only manual labour, eating and sleeping or edit out their empathy and conscience so they don't mind doing your dirty work. Once you have an initial engineered population it would probably be easier and better to breed the GMOs than to clone them.

but this would not even involve a women to bring to term and may not even involve a human women for eggs shells

when they can make clone babies without a woman, they can make "fresh" babies wthout a woman and the religious will have to learn to deal with it.

I think they will be used as organ farms, treated a subhuman by most people while a few will see them as being equal. But that's what I think would happen, not what should happen.


Oh i think most of us saw how clone farming worked so well in that
movie "the island"
:)

cloned black people...


Eternal Target Practise?:)

Clones are people two. :)

it's so easy to say yes.

but have people really thought about the consequences of clones?
(assuming clone mean an exact copy.)

"right to a fair and speedy trial"
how can you insure this right? if one clone kills someone, how can you determine without a reasonable doubt, which clone did the killing? is the Original going to be held responsible? DNA evidence would become useless quickly.

Identity theift? how can the right to privacy be upheld when several clones can assume the same Identity without some form of marking/tracking system that can become invasive/demeaning?

if you're clone did something wrong and is being sought by the police, how can your rights (as the originator) be insured and protected?

if you start 'marking clones' with either genitic tags or permament tattoos, won't that be infringing on their rights? yet you, as the original, will suffer due to the actions of your clones.

and this is assuming the clones all have free will to determine their own future.

Recently me and a friend were talking about random stuff, when the conversation came around to clones and what right they would have, (as you do). I said they would have almost none and be consider less then human. He disagreed and said they would be given the same right as a original human. We were both assume that the clone was grown in a artificial womb. MY reasoning went that people would see there clone as there property and many religion would see clone as lacking a soul so worth less then a human.

What do you guy think?

I am unsure about the whole cloning debate... I think about a society of clones amongst us and though there would be no physical difference, there would be alot of emotional and mental trauma associated with the clones being clones, they would always question their own identity and their self worth? are they children of a higher level? god? it would drive someone crazy living life with all of those unknowns and to top it off, the way they would be made to feel by society..

Why would it not have rights? A clone is just a copy of the original's DNA. Once it achieves consciousness..it developes it's own memories, makes it's own decisions apart from the original. Therefore, IMO, it has it's OWN soul.

Please, I beseech you all, take just a couple minutes to actually learn a little something about the topic before making woefully ignorant comments.

Cloning is simply taking the genetic material of an organism and using it to generate another. It is not like putting someone in a copier machine and out pops an identical 'copy'.

If all you know about a subject is having heard about some poorly written fiction by an author who never understood anything beyond a elementary school science class, educate yourself before making posts like this:

it's so easy to say yes.

but have people really thought about the consequences of clones?
(assuming clone mean an exact copy.)

"right to a fair and speedy trial"
how can you insure this right? if one clone kills someone, how can you determine without a reasonable doubt, which clone did the killing? is the Original going to be held responsible? DNA evidence would become useless quickly.

Identity theift? how can the right to privacy be upheld when several clones can assume the same Identity without some form of marking/tracking system that can become invasive/demeaning?

if you're clone did something wrong and is being sought by the police, how can your rights (as the originator) be insured and protected?

if you start 'marking clones' with either genitic tags or permament tattoos, won't that be infringing on their rights? yet you, as the original, will suffer due to the actions of your clones.

and this is assuming the clones all have free will to determine their own future.

Please, I beseech you all, take just a couple minutes to actually learn a little something about the topic before making woefully ignorant comments.

Cloning is simply taking the genetic material of an organism and using it to generate another. It is not like putting someone in a copier machine and out pops an identical 'copy'.

If all you know about a subject is having heard about some poorly written fiction by an author who never understood anything beyond a elementary school science class, educate yourself before making posts like this:

and may I ask that you please read carefully? else you would've seen this in the third line of the post you "read" and quoted.
:p
(assuming clone mean an exact copy.)

Eternal Target Practise?:)

:rolleyes:

Since identical twins are basically clones, and they have rights, why wouldn't they have rights?

I Personally would never make a clone of myself. that would just suck, he could do evil things pretending to be me and then say he was the real me and I'd get into trouble. But if someone wants to make a clone of themselves, by all means let 'em i don't care.

Since identical twins are basically clones, and they have rights, why wouldn't they have rights?

Because the world (especially the US) doesnt opperate on logic silly girl.

keep the clones drugged up and dumb so they can be used for spare organs.

keep the clones drugged up and dumb so they can be used for spare organs.

http://www.boston.com/news/health/blog/2008/04/regnerative_med.html

Everyone here already familiar with this?
The approaches will include work with stem cells, growth factors, tissue and biomaterial engineering, and transplants to help the body restore or replace damaged tissues or organs

Going beyond just clones and speaking on what I believe determines if a being has rights or not, I would say that if a being is capable of propositional exchange and thus can discern norms, or if it will be able to at some point in its lifetime, then it should have full rights.

I am unsure about the whole cloning debate... I think about a society of clones amongst us and though there would be no physical difference, there would be alot of emotional and mental trauma associated with the clones being clones, they would always question their own identity and their self worth? are they children of a higher level? god? it would drive someone crazy living life with all of those unknowns and to top it off, the way they would be made to feel by society..

Emotional or mental trauma would only occur due to the environment the clone is raised in. For example, the genetic donor unreasonably expects a carbon copy, is disappointed, and makes too great of demands of his young clone.

If the clone was raised as every other kid, then why would they question their identity? They would have their own personality, own memories, own dreams, and hopes. They just happen to share the same gentic material as someone else. Do identical twins have serious questions regarding their self worth? Some might; but the vast majority are perfectly fine.

Children of a higher level? god? Where would this even come from? It's not like they are genetically modified super humans.

Remember that IVF (in vitro fertilization) was met with these same objections: Will they have a soul? How will society treat them? Will they be emotionally scarred? The answer? Children conceived through in vitro fertilization are just the same as everyone else.

How would they be made to feel by society? Society would not be able to identify clone from original, and as it realizes that there is no actual difference, the majority of anti-clone sentiment would fade away.

Oh, and mitochondrial DNA would be different in a clone. So the genetic material wouldn't be 100% the same (identical twins share more).

I Personally would never make a clone of myself. that would just suck, he could do evil things pretending to be me and then say he was the real me and I'd get into trouble.

Despite the fact that there would be at least an 18 year difference between you and your clone (assuming that 18 would be the age of consent to clone yourself, only reasonable).

Clones are people two. :)
Isn't it strange
Feels like I'm lookin' in the mirror
What would people say
If only they knew that I was

Part of some geneticist's plan (plan-plan-plan)
Born to be a carbon copy man (man-man-man)
There in a petri dish late one night
They took a donor's body cell and fertilized a human egg and so I say

I think I'm a clone now
There's always two of me just a-hangin' around
I think I'm a clone now
'Cause every chromosome is a hand-me-down

Look at the way
We go out walking close together
I guess you could say
I'm really beside myself

I still remember how it began (gan-gan-gan)
They produced a carbon copy man (man-man-man)
Born in a science lab late one night
Without a mother or a father, just a test tube and a womb with a view

I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)
There's always two of me just a-hangin' around
I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)
'Cause every chromosome is a hand-me-down

I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)
And I can stay at home while I'm out of town
I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)
'Cause every pair of genes is a hand-me-down

Signing autographs for my fans
Come and meet the carbon copy man
Livin' in stereo, it's all right
Well I can be my own best friend and I can send myself for pizza so I say

I think I'm a clone now
Another one of me's always hangin' around
I think I'm a clone now
'Cause every chromosome is a hand-me-down

I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)
I've been on Oprah Winfrey - I'm world renowned
I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)
And every pair of genes is a hand-me-down

I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)
That's my genetic twin always hangin' around
I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)
'Cause every chromosome is a hand-me-down
?

Assuming that they would only be physically identical to a person. I would say yes, they do, or rather would, have all the rights free society allows for Humans. If they were the same as the original person on the inside, well, that couldn't happen so why bother thinking about it.

Wow four pages and noone said it yet?

I, for one, welcome our new Clone Overlords.

Wow four pages and noone said it yet?

I, for one, welcome our new Clone Overlords.

There is a reason noone said it yet.

I know this has been said several times already, but: To deny any group of people the same rights as everybody else is a recipe for disaster.

And if identical copies is such a big deal, there could be some law proposing that everybody have to have some form of identification to indicate how they were born (to prevent fraud, etc.) or if not an actual law, something similar. (As long as there's an equal system to prevent segregation/discrimination taking place.)

I know this has been said several times already, but: To deny any group of people the same rights as everybody else is a recipe for disaster.

What about lepers?

What about lepers?

There's not enough of them. ;)

There is a reason noone said it yet.

Quo?

Clones are humans. Treating them as less than that is like treating African Americans/Homosexuals/Jews/anything you want as less than human. They live. They breathe. They can think for themselves. They deserve a normal lifestyle.

Clones have no rights; they are not people, they're objects created by mankind for our pleasure, to perform our tasks, fight our wars, and be a source of organs when needed. Think of a clone as you would a pet or a really insecure girlfriend.

Given that we are formed, both physically and mentally by the events and experiences we undergo, I severely doubt that a clone of an existing adult would even look much more similar at matched points in the lifespan than a sibling would. Furthermore, individuals with identical DNA do exist, as do individuals who were conceived outside of the womb, and a clones rights should not be any different from theirs.

I guess that I wouldn't want a clone to be treated any different from another human being.

it's so easy to say yes.

but have people really thought about the consequences of clones?
(assuming clone mean an exact copy.)

"right to a fair and speedy trial"
how can you insure this right? if one clone kills someone, how can you determine without a reasonable doubt, which clone did the killing? is the Original going to be held responsible? DNA evidence would become useless quickly.

Identity theift? how can the right to privacy be upheld when several clones can assume the same Identity without some form of marking/tracking system that can become invasive/demeaning?

if you're clone did something wrong and is being sought by the police, how can your rights (as the originator) be insured and protected?

if you start 'marking clones' with either genitic tags or permament tattoos, won't that be infringing on their rights? yet you, as the original, will suffer due to the actions of your clones.

and this is assuming the clones all have free will to determine their own future.

You do realize that without some weird sci-fi "forced growth" thing that clones would be of different ages, right? For this to work without forced growth you would have to be cloned prior to birth, or maybe out to 2 years max. Otherwise the clones would look too different. There is also absolutely zero reason (barring more sci-fi devices) that a clone would lack free will.

and may I ask that you please read carefully? else you would've seen this in the third line of the post you "read" and quoted.
:p

I assumed that line meant exact GENETIC copy, not some sci-fi clone that came out the same age with the same build and same memories.

Quo?

That "joke" has been so over done my eyes burn and I wish they had brain bleach I could use every time I see it.

Clones have no rights; they are not people, they're objects created by mankind for our pleasure, to perform our tasks, fight our wars, and be a source of organs when needed. Think of a clone as you would a pet or a really insecure girlfriend.

Joke check!

Joke check!
No joke, clones are just walking organ banks but some of the more attractive ones could be used for sex until their time is up.

No joke, clones are just walking organ banks but some of the more attractive ones could be used for sex until their time is up.

Shit, we should just classify people like that. Why screw around with clones when we're already cranking out over 211,000 per day via biological birth?

Shit, we should just classify people like that. Why screw around with clones when we're already cranking out over 211,000 per day via biological birth?
Exactly. But you have to start slow and work your way up so there isn't much backlash. Begin with the organ banking by executing criminals by vivisection. Then gradually reduce the severity of the crime the get "banked" until it's down to parking violations. After that you have to pass a law against excessively bad appearances and shit like that to start weeding out the ugly and talentless and stupid. Eventually the only people left alive will either be talented or smart and have attractive spice. Before you try to correct me on that let me ask if the plural of mouse is mice then why isn't the plural of spouse spice?

No joke, clones are just walking organ banks but some of the more attractive ones could be used for sex until their time is up.

You do realize real life clones would just be people grown in artifical wombs don't you? They would be people in practically every sense of the word.

Exactly. But you have to start slow and work your way up so there isn't much backlash. Begin with the organ banking by executing criminals by vivisection. Then gradually reduce the severity of the crime the get "banked" until it's down to parking violations. After that you have to pass a law against excessively bad appearances and shit like that to start weeding out the ugly and talentless and stupid. Eventually the only people left alive will either be talented or smart and have attractive spice. Before you try to correct me on that let me ask if the plural of mouse is mice then why isn't the plural of spouse spice?

I can see getting the organs once the criminals are dead...but vivisection? That is something I barely approve of being done to animals for purely scientific reasons, but humans? Never. Ever. No matter what.


Edit: Sorry for the double post, but I felt this needed to be addressed.

I can see getting the organs once the criminals are dead...but vivisection? That is something I barely approve of being done to animals for purely scientific reasons, but humans? Never. Ever. No matter what.
Didn't you ever read the Jigsaw Man?

They sedate the condemned then hand him over to an "auto-doc" that carefully pulls him or her apart. Bones are drilled for marrow, skin folded neatly, even the hair is kept. In the end almost everything that they were is distributed to hospitals to heal the sick and injured. It's no more cruel than lethal injection, with that they sedate you and and stop your breathing and heart with poison. At least with this society would get something out of it.

Recently me and a friend were talking about random stuff, when the conversation came around to clones and what right they would have, (as you do). I said they would have almost none and be consider less then human. He disagreed and said they would be given the same right as a original human. We were both assume that the clone was grown in a artificial womb. MY reasoning went that people would see there clone as there property and many religion would see clone as lacking a soul so worth less then a human.

What do you guy think?

Its a human clone, it would have human rights, you're wrong your friend is right.

Its a human clone, it would have human rights, you're wrong your friend is right.

truly that only opinion until clone becomes a reality? :p
I still stand by what i wrote. I still think known clones will be second class citizens. People are mean, horrible irrational creatures, irrational being the important word, (hell if you want proof just look at the abortion debate.) I feel that many will see clones as slaves and walking organ banks. I also feel that many religions will feel that clones are lacking in a soul and humanity playing god
therefore making clones an abomination.

truly that only opinion until clone becomes a reality? :p
I still stand by what i wrote. I still think known clones will be second class citizens. People are mean, horrible irrational creatures, irrational being the important word, (hell if you want proof just look at the abortion debate.) I feel that many will see clones as slaves and walking organ banks. I also feel that many religions will feel that clones are lacking in a soul and humanity playing god
therefore making clones an abomination.


Many may see it that way(I belive that many won't) but then that would just hasten the first, second, and third clone wars.

Slavery has been abolished now(okay okay I know), the majority of people would not condone, it, so why would they for what is essetialy a human? Should we enslave all those born via IV treatment?

A human clone will have all the abilities, attributes, thoughts and feelings of a normal human.

Many may see it that way(I believe that many won't) but then that would just hasten the first, second, and third clone wars.

Oh i truly believe that there will be a civil right movement for clones (well i hope for one) but i dis agree, largely on the religious grounds

Slavery has been abolished now(okay okay I know), the majority of people would not condone, it, so why would they for what is essentially a human? Should we enslave all those born via IV treatment?.
As clone won't be thought of as human at first, slavery will not be a issue, are pet seen to be enslaved? I may have a low opination of people, (i seen some nasty thing in my short life) but if it make life easier they will so take it. And treating clones as unhuman will allow all sorts of thing, from better drug testing (who cares if a clone is killed) to unintelligent, but physically superior clone armies. Please note there is one big difference between i.v childen and that one will be born of women and the other not.

A human clone will have all the abilities, attributes, thoughts and feelings of a normal human.
So? People are arseholes.

I can thoroughly recommend Spares by Michael Marshall Smith, a sci-fi novel on this very idea.

Personally I think anyone who thinks clones should have no rights can go clone themselves and then have sex with their clone.

Human clones are biologically... well... human. They have all the same rights as non-clone human beings.

Saying that someone might view clones as their own property and using that as justification is like justifying human slavery because people view slaves as their own property. It simply isn't logical.

I can thoroughly recommend Spares by Michael Marshall Smith, a sci-fi novel on this very idea.

Personally I think anyone who thinks clones should have no rights can go clone themselves and then have sex with their clone.
I think they should have right, but I also think People are arseholes and won't give it to them.

Oh i truly believe that there will be a civil right movement for clones (well i hope for one) but i dis agree, largely on the religious grounds

I'm also religous, but I takle the view that whatever we do is natural, you know humanity being part of nature and all.


As clone won't be thought of as human at first, slavery will not be a issue, are pet seen to be enslaved? I may have a low opination of people, (i seen some nasty thing in my short life) but if it make life easier they will so take it. And treating clones as unhuman will allow all sorts of thing, from better drug testing (who cares if a clone is killed) to unintelligent, but physically superior clone armies. Please note there is one big difference between i.v childen and that one will be born of women and the other not.

I totaly disagree there. Of course a human clone is human, what else would they be? I would though like to know why you think this? And what is the differance with children born via IV and those cloned directly from human cells? Do you really suggest that the only differance is the sperm? what if the cells used to implant into the egg, was gathered from the sperm?


So? People are arseholes.

Yes some are some are not, but whats the point you are making here?

Ultimatly cloning is just a technice for the creation of a viable fetus, so how does that somehow invalidate the child from humanity?

I'm also religious, but I take the view that whatever we do is natural, you know humanity being part of nature and all.
Damn my poor communication skills, I not religious, i think that religion will be a major block on clones getting the same rights as me and you (again i will admit i have a very low view of humanity in general.) This is not an attack on religion, but on the misinterpretation of it by uneducated and/or unintelligent followers.


I totally disagree there. Of course a human clone is human, what else would they be? I would though like to know why you think this?
I think they are human, but i also think it one of the ways people they will justify there mistreatment of these clones. I truly think that people in general will accept anything that makes there life easter. If clones become cheap labour, it would drive down costs making life easier for all. if clone were cheap
drug testing with become hundreds of times faster and safer to "real human"
They may be some good people willing to buck the norm, but they will be rare.


And what is the difference with children born via IV and those cloned directly from human cells? Do you really suggest that the only difference is the sperm? what if the cells used to implant into the egg, was gathered from the sperm?

ones born of women, the other machine, as far as i aware cloning can't be done from sperm (its not got enough D.N.A) but again this is not the prob. Its one of perception, they will not be seen as equal, or even human. Just because they are human will not change this, reality rarely has any relation to
perception. If whites thought black were the same as them would the slave trade have happen as it did.

If you treat Cylons as subhuman, you're begging for an Uprising.

Fixed.

ones born of women, the other machine, as far as i aware cloning can't be done from sperm (its not got enough D.N.A) but again this is not the prob. Its one of perception, they will not be seen as equal, or even human. Just because they are human will not change this, reality rarely has any relation to
perception. If whites thought black were the same as them would the slave trade have happen as it did.

I think here perhaps is the kernal of our disagreement. Currnetly cloneing means implanting an egg with genetic material into the womb of the host. This differs from IV in the origins of the implanted DNA, otherwise it is much the same(laymans knowledge here)

Do you think that this will change in the future so that human host is replaced with some form of artifical womb?

I imagine part of how clones are treated depends on whether someone can be tested to see if they are a clone. I suspect if clones are developed they would be genetically tagged in some way - after all CSI would rapidly become boring if it was always someones clone that turned out to be responsible.

Obviously clones should be treated as humans. Do you treat your cloned dog any different than a dog? But then there is the fact that if a clone realizes it is a clone would it then become angry if it had a worse of life then the original would it not want to get revenge on the original because it was force out of a good life.

Then there is the fact of a clone army. Unless one alters the clone it would feel the resentment of being cheated out of a free life and rebel. Over all clones should be treated the same as a human.

If we can ever get over the prejudices that would be common with their existence.

If we get to the point of actually cloning human beings, yes they should have equal rights.

Whether they will or not is questionable. Remember, the Pope (not Bennie, the one before) said that they would have no souls (as if he would know) and Bennie has not changed that particular Papal stupidity.

The best option if you are going to clone for research or to harvest organs from is to "take out" traits that would allow the clone to think for itself or even be aware that it is a person. The easiest way would be to grow the clones in tanks and keep them basicly brain dead but alive. for reasearch its as easy as keeping clones seperate and in the case of escape have a way to track them, such as tattoos or imbedded chips. The fact that the clones are an exact copy of another living person should not distract from the fact that they were created thru science not natural process. They should have no more rights then you would give to a car. With the right drug therapy and DNA work a clone can be docile and unquestioning. Wiether or not this is ethical is beside the point, you have already cloned so might as well go all the way.

I think here perhaps is the kernal of our disagreement. Currently cloning means implanting an egg with genetic material into the womb of the host. This differs from IV in the origins of the implanted DNA, otherwise it is much the same(layman's knowledge here)

Do you think that this will change in the future so that human host is replaced with some form of artificial womb?

Yes, within a few years artificial womb will be possible from conception.(when egg meets sperm for clarity) Once the human host is taken out of it, and clones can be mass-produced, (a long way off i know) then they may be seen as domesticated animals at best

Yes, within a few years artificial womb will be possible from conception.(when egg meets sperm for clarity) Once the human host is taken out of it, and clones can be mass-produced, (a long way off i know) then they may be seen as domesticated animals at best

Naaa I still don't see it. Other then the 'people are arseholes' reason that you have given, why else do you think so?

Yes, within a few years artificial womb will be possible from conception.(when egg meets sperm for clarity) Once the human host is taken out of it, and clones can be mass-produced, (a long way off i know) then they may be seen as domesticated animals at best

Yeah. Read Friday by Robert A. Heinlein

I assumed that line meant exact GENETIC copy, not some sci-fi clone that came out the same age with the same build and same memories.

i meant it as exact genetic copy. of course there would be some physical varients, but basically a twin. (hence why the confusion with EC's reply about clones not being a carbon copy when I said assuming it was.) ;)

and no, my "flight of science fantasy" didn't even touch on downloading memories and personalities. I only kept it on the physcial attributes. :p

the idea of more people who think like me.... *shudders* :D

You do realize that without some weird sci-fi "forced growth" thing that clones would be of different ages, right? For this to work without forced growth you would have to be cloned prior to birth, or maybe out to 2 years max. Otherwise the clones would look too different. There is also absolutely zero reason (barring more sci-fi devices) that a clone would lack free will.

ah, but the idea I was positing is the use of dna and fingerprint evidence. rather hard to tell age with that.

add to that the fact that many clones can be made (keeping to the sci-fi modes of near exact physical cloning.) thus the idea of differenciating one clone out of a batch of three or more. after all, the problems with ID'ing one specific clone isn't only between clone and original. but amonst themselves as well.

bascially the "I am Sparticus" in a courtroom setting...

and the more I think about it... the more I think I have a NaNoWriMo idea...

(oh and I never assumed they didn't have free will... after all, there has to be a real 'evil twin' out there.) :p

Well, I gather that the modern method of full-body cloning is, essentially, identical to regular reproduction, minus the penis.
So, until we're summoning clone armies of artificial humans from mid-air, I dont see where the debate is, really.

Well, I gather that the modern method of full-body cloning is, essentially, identical to regular reproduction, minus the penis.
So, until we're summoning clone armies of artificial humans from mid-air, I dont see where the debate is, really.

So you're saying men really are unnecessary.

Even if clones are initially slaves I bet they wouldn't stay that way. At some point some clone, either through the beneficial influence of non-clones opposed to clone-slavery, or because the brain-controlling drugs don't work, will escape his masters and find his way to a good lawyer. That'd be the civil-rights case of the century before you could sneeze, because any lawyer worth her diploma would realize that once you had precedent on your side the punitive judgments against the cloning/organ-harvesting industry would be enormous.

In short yeah, people are assholes, but they also like money.

That "joke" has been so over done my eyes burn and I wish they had brain bleach I could use every time I see it.

o.9
Don't mince words with me, Bones.

Most of these arguments against cloning are based on far-fetched "what if" slippery slope scenarios. In other words, they suck.

If human cloning was ever legalized, it would probably only be for "reproductive cloning". This is when someone, or a couple, wants the clone so they can raise it as their child. The clone will grow up as any normal child; most people would never know it's a clone. Since a clone child would be completely indistinguishible from a regularly conceived child, any bias against clones would disintigrate as it would be discovered that there is no basis for it.

Coincidentally, if cloning is initially only approved for reproductive purposes, this would basically guarantee the exclusion of cloning for organ harvesting or slavery. People would come to see clones as human as themselves, and would not allow the designation of clones as anything less.

walking organ farms!!!

Naaa I still don't see it. Other then the 'people are arseholes' reason that you have given, why else do you think so?

For many reasons, First i think that many religions will see them lacking a soul, (i think Anti-Social Darwinism is right and the dead pope issued a statement to that affect, other religions will follow). This alone will make some people see them as beast, which in turn will allow them to be in slaved or "domesticated"
Secondly just look at history, most civilastion as had slavery of one form or another, whether it the romans conquest to the rape of African indigenous population. People will justify it as it easier to live with without. (i use for my example the use of cheap labor in 3rd world countries, though a few brave soul will protest and some will say it empty words against it, most don't care or like the benefits too much)

I also agree with Trans Fatty Acids that evenity they will have equal right but i think it will be a up hill struggle