NationStates Jolt Archive

I've been practicing the martial arts for a four years now, and I'm close to achieving my black belt (I hold a 3rd degree brown, for the curious). As a black belt, I would instruct classes and handle kids, so I've been sitting in as an assistant instructor to several of the kid's classes at my dojo for the last few weeks. As a part of kid's classes, they do activities to promote focus, discipline, etc, and the kids have simple 'homework' that they have a month or so to do. This week, the kids were assigned to find the meanings of the three principles of the school: honor, respect, and self-discipline.

I've been thinking a lot about these three principles since then. These concepts are a lot more complex than the simple dictionary definition that the kids are being asked to find. I've been told that the next step for the kids will be to ask them to find what honor, what respect, and what self-discipline means to them personally, and that's what gets me. I've got a warped (relative to society's norm) sense of honor and respect. To respect someone, as I understand it, is to acknowledge their skill in a given area, and the highest form of respect I can think of would be to treat someone as a friend. I've gotten odd looks when I explained this to others. Am I out on a limb here, or does this make sense? I think that honor, personal honor, is to do actions with integrity and honesty, and to honor someone would be to acknowledge their personal honor.

I'm curious as to what other people take honor to mean, what respect means. So NSG, the question I pose to you is: How do you show that you respect someone, how do you develop or adhere to your honor, and how do you maintain self-discipline? What do those concepts mean to you?

respect is treating someone as you would want to be treated, when you respect someone you treat them and their feelings as important to you (even if they are not) you should strive to relate to them in a way that is gentle and caring and not harsh or degrading

honor is doing things with integrity, integrity means that you are the same inside as you are outside or that your walk matches your talk, when you are acting with honor you are acting in a way that reflects your values, a person without honor will say they are honest and turn around and lie. behaving dishonorably is both disrespectful to yourself and others.

self discipline is the act of keeping yourself from doing things that are disrespectful or dishonorable. you should treat yourself very well, and make sure that you are always doing what is right, eat nutritious food, exercise regularly and keep your mind clean so that you can be calm and rational. self discipline is a way to honor and respect yourself.

I'm curious as to what other people take honor to mean, what respect means. So NSG, the question I pose to you is: How do you show that you respect someone, how do you develop or adhere to your honor, and how do you maintain self-discipline? What do those concepts mean to you?

Honor is what you have when you do the right thing even when nobody's watching and especially if it's difficult.

You show respect by meeting someone's expectations of how you should treat them.

You maintain self-discipline by acknowledging goals that are higher than your own personal gratification.

respect is treating someone as you would want to be treated, when you respect someone you treat them and their feelings as important to you (even if they are not) you should strive to relate to them in a way that is gentle and caring and not harsh or degrading

I really like that bolded part. :D

See, I've always taken respect as something that each person must earn. This sounds like simple politeness. For example, it's possible to to deeply disrespect and/or dislike a person, but still be able to act cordially towards them. Do you think that everyone deserves an intitial amount of respect, or must everyone earn respect?

I really like that bolded part. :D

See, I've always taken respect as something that each person must earn. This sounds like simple politeness. For example, it's possible to to deeply disrespect and/or dislike a person, but still be able to act cordially towards them. Do you think that everyone deserves an intitial amount of respect, or must everyone earn respect?

For me, an honorable person treat everyone else as honorable until they have proven to be otherwise. That actually honors them.

Being honorable means basically be moral, have a code of beliefs and conduct and follow it at all times. Inmoral or amoral people are just not honorable. Integrity is basically being constant with your morals. And yes, a rapist and serial killer, according to that definition, could be honorable as long as he sticks to the same moral. (I suddenly thought of Anton Chigourd in "No Country for Old Men").

Self discipline...Well, indeed, honor is actually mental, moral, and emotional self discipline. The concepts are truly related.

Honor is what you have when you do the right thing even when nobody's watching and especially if it's difficult.

Isn't that self-discipline? How can someone show that they have honor when no one else is there to see it?

You show respect by meeting someone's expectations of how you should treat them.

How does one know how others expect them to act? That's a very individual basis for respect. How do you show respect on a broader scale?

You maintain self-discipline by acknowledging goals that are higher than your own personal gratification.

What do you mean? I've always thought that 'self'-discipline applied mostly to your own actions, for example, not eating the tasty-but-fattening cake when you're on a diet. It sounds to me that you're meaning self-discipline to reflect better actions for a group instead of yourself.

I really like that bolded part. :D

See, I've always taken respect as something that each person must earn. This sounds like simple politeness. For example, it's possible to to deeply disrespect and/or dislike a person, but still be able to act cordially towards them. Do you think that everyone deserves an intitial amount of respect, or must everyone earn respect?

I treat people with respect not because they deserve it but because it's part of honoring myself. I am not a disrespectful person and I do not aspire to be one, so I try to treat people how I would like to be treated. Basically they have a default level of respect and it can either go up or down based on their actions. I try to treat people at the very least politely, I sometimes have trouble with that when they do something that I feel is very hurtful, but it's a self discipline issue after that.

I think you command respect, I don't like people who demand respect. If you carry yourself with integrity, people will respect you, if you do not, no amount of screaming and whining is going to change their view of you.

I think you command respect, I don't like people who demand respect. If you carry yourself with integrity, people will respect you, if you do not, no amount of screaming and whining is going to change their view of you.

but i wanna have some respects... give me some! ;)

So when someone commands respect, is that when they've shown themselves to be honorable?

See, I'm confused because people can have some, but not all of these traits. I've known and respected people that aren't honorable at all, and I've known those that I would call honorable but not respectable. (I think we can agree, however, that to have either honor or respect you must have some modicrum of self discipline)

How do you show that you respect someone

I don't think that anyone deserves more respect than anyone else, if you act ethically you shouldn't be bothered if you act respectful.

how do you develop or adhere to your honor,

Honor is a means of letting people follow a certain set of ethics. You're rewarded with honor if you act according to the ethics of your society. If those ethics are wrong you shouldn't want honor.

how do you maintain self-discipline?

I don't unfortunately. To me it means you do what is good, even though you don't want to.

So basically it all goes back to acting ethically, then you will have enough respect for everyone, you will have honor (or not, but it's not something you should wish for, since it's only a tool to let people act ethically, if the ethics behind the honor in your society suck, you don't need to act honorably), and you will need self-discipline o do so.

Honor is when you are more concerned with doing what's right than in appearing to do what's right. A dishonorable person can have a good reputation.

but i wanna have some respects... give me some! ;)

So when someone commands respect, is that when they've shown themselves to be honorable?

See, I'm confused because people can have some, but not all of these traits. I've known and respected people that aren't honorable at all, and I've known those that I would call honorable but not respectable. (I think we can agree, however, that to have either honor or respect you must have some modicrum of self discipline)

I think when someone commands respect they have shown themselves to have qualities you value, such as honor, integrity, honesty, intelligence, etc. (whatever you value really, I respect a friend of mine because she is very good with children, I feel like she has a patient spirit and I respect her because she treats children kindly)

Flash of the Blade - Iron Maiden

As a young boy chasing Dragons
with your wooden sword so mighty,
You're St. George or you're David and you always
killed the beast
Times change very quickly
And you had to grow up early
A house in smoking ruins and the bodies at your feet

You'll die as you lived
In a flash of the blade
In a corner forgotten by no-one
You lived for the touch
For the feel of the steel
One man, and his Honour.

The smell of resined leather
The steely iron mask
As you cut and thrust and parried at the
fencing master's call
He taught you all he ever knew
To fear no mortal man
And now you'll wreak your vengeance in the
Screams of evil man.

You'll die as you lived
In a flash of the blade
In a corner forgotten by no-one
You lived for the touch
For the feel of the steel
One man, and his Honour.



Is that an acceptable answer? :p

I don't think that anyone deserves more respect than anyone else, if you act ethically you shouldn't be bothered if you act respectful.

People don't deserve varying levels of respect? I, a college student working towards his masters, don't deserve more respect than the high school drop-out flipping burgers? I'm supposed to respect serial rapists and murderers? I think it's quite obvious that some people deserve to be respected more than others, no matter how ethically a person acts on an individual level.

... you will have honor (or not, but it's not something you should wish for, since it's only a tool to let people act ethically, if the ethics behind the honor in your society suck, you don't need to act honorably)...

Honor is not a tool to cause people to act ethically in a society. Granted, society does inherit the benefits of individual honor, and uses that, but honor, to me, is something that one should practice even if they've decided to be hermit.

I really like that bolded part. :D

See, I've always taken respect as something that each person must earn. This sounds like simple politeness. For example, it's possible to to deeply disrespect and/or dislike a person, but still be able to act cordially towards them. Do you think that everyone deserves an intitial amount of respect, or must everyone earn respect?

I apply two levels of respect:

First is the base level of respect I accord to all living beings. This is the "treating others as I would wish to be treated" part.

Second is the respect that must be earned. I will not defer to someone else's authority or social status unless I believe they have earned that status and demonstrated the skills needed to wield the authority. I will not respect a person personally, if they behave dishonorably or disrespectfully towards others.

Put the two together, and it means that even if I have no respect for a person, there are still some things I would never do to them or let be done to them.

Both levels of respect are tied in with my sense of honor, which, like the other posters here, requires me to act with integrity at all times. Integrity means that a person must act according to their ethics, whatever they may be. A person who violates their own ethics does not act honorably. My mom defined ethics and honor for me thus: "You can judge a person's character by the things they will not do."

As for self-discipline, I'm not sure what that means to me. I suppose it does take a certain discipline to refrain from throwing a stapler at one's incompetent boss, even if he deserves it, but... maybe that's not what you had in mind.

Is that an acceptable answer? :p

NO! ;)

That was very interesting, thanks for that. How do you think that applies to modern society though? :)

I apply two levels of respect: <snip>

I agree. Although, I would really call that first level of respect simple politeness. I suppose the two go hand-in-hand. But can someone lose even that first level of respect? Is there any reason that someone shouldn't be respected at all?

As for self-discipline, I'm not sure what that means to me. I suppose it does take a certain discipline to refrain from throwing a stapler at one's incompetent boss, even if he deserves it, but... maybe that's not what you had in mind.

:D That's exactly what I had in mind! I wanted some examples to pick at when I have some free time to just sit and think. Do you think there are levels of self-discipline also?

People don't deserve varying levels of respect? I, a college student working towards his masters, don't deserve more respect than the high school drop-out flipping burgers? I'm supposed to respect serial rapists and murderers? I think it's quite obvious that some people deserve to be respected more than others, no matter how ethically a person acts on an individual level.

No, if you act ethically I think that is enough, I don't see why I should 'respect' someone more than others based on their job or something. Of course it might be useful socially, but that's just being polite. I don't even see why I should respect the college student more than the hamburger flipper.
What I meant was that respect is useless, as long as someone acts morally.

Honor is not a tool to cause people to act ethically in a society. Granted, society does inherit the benefits of individual honor, and uses that, but honor, to me, is something that one should practice even if they've decided to be hermit.

I don't agree, in medieval Japan for instance it might have been honorable to commit suicide in some situations, that's obviously stupid, so I don't see why I should act honorably in medieval Japan. (I don't know much about medieval Japan so my example could be wrong of course, but I think you understand what I mean.)


Personally I think 'respect' and 'honor' are aren't things one should focus on, rather do what good is and think about the formalities later.

I agree, wtf is 'honor'?

No, if you act ethically I think that is enough, I don't see why I should 'respect' someone more than others based on their job or something. Of course it might be useful socially, but that's just being polite. I don't even see why I should respect the college student more than the hamburger flipper.
What I meant was that respect is useless, as long as someone acts morally.

But the average college student has worked much harder than the average high school drop-out! Along what Smunkee was saying earlier, you don't value hard work or education? Like I said before, what about rapists and murderers? Should I 'respect' them because they act moral, aside from the whole murdering thing, and even then it's ambigious because of self-defense, defense of others, etc, or should I condemn them for being what they are?

I don't agree, in medieval Japan for instance it might have been honorable to commit suicide in some situations, that's obviously stupid, so I don't see why I should act honorably in medieval Japan. (I don't know much about medieval Japan so my example could be wrong of course, but I think you understand what I mean.)

Well, suicides in that example were committed in order to avoid losing honor, not because suicide was honorable. But that's besides the point.

Can something that is honorable to do, in modern society, be a bad thing to do then? I can't think of an instance where doing the honorable thing is the wrong thing to do.

Personally I think 'respect' and 'honor' are aren't things one should focus on, rather do what good is and think about the formalities later.

I would call doing good and following an honor code to be roughly the same thing. There's really no difference between honor and doing good. However, respect isn't a formal thing, it's practically expected than that some people and things are respected.

But the average college student has worked much harder than the average high school drop-out! Along what Smunkee was saying earlier, you don't value hard work or education? Like I said before, what about rapists and murderers? Should I 'respect' them because they act moral, aside from the whole murdering thing, and even then it's ambigious because of self-defense, defense of others, etc, or should I condemn them for being what they are?

I don't really understand what you mean with respecting someone? Isn't it just respecting their 'rights'? Everybody's rights should be respected equally, even if he is a rapist. Other than that it might be socially beneficial for someone to act respectfully towards highstanding members of society, but that's just formality.


Can something that is honorable to do, in modern society, be a bad thing to do then? I can't think of an instance where doing the honorable thing is the wrong thing to do.

You see, it isn't important if it is honorable, only that it is good. Honor is how society views what you do.


I would call doing good and following an honor code to be roughly the same thing. There's really no difference between honor and doing good.

Ok, you agree with me then, acting ethically (or honorably if you insist on calling it that way) is important, what society thinks of those actions isn't that important.

However, respect isn't a formal thing, it's practically expected than that some people and things are respected.

Ok, I agree here too, it's important that you respect other people's rights => that you act ethically. Formalities aren't that important.

I've been practicing the martial arts for a four years now, and I'm close to achieving my black belt (I hold a 3rd degree brown, for the curious). As a black belt, I would instruct classes and handle kids, so I've been sitting in as an assistant instructor to several of the kid's classes at my dojo for the last few weeks. As a part of kid's classes, they do activities to promote focus, discipline, etc, and the kids have simple 'homework' that they have a month or so to do. This week, the kids were assigned to find the meanings of the three principles of the school: honor, respect, and self-discipline.

I've been thinking a lot about these three principles since then. These concepts are a lot more complex than the simple dictionary definition that the kids are being asked to find. I've been told that the next step for the kids will be to ask them to find what honor, what respect, and what self-discipline means to them personally, and that's what gets me. I've got a warped (relative to society's norm) sense of honor and respect. To respect someone, as I understand it, is to acknowledge their skill in a given area, and the highest form of respect I can think of would be to treat someone as a friend. I've gotten odd looks when I explained this to others. Am I out on a limb here, or does this make sense? I think that honor, personal honor, is to do actions with integrity and honesty, and to honor someone would be to acknowledge their personal honor.

I'm curious as to what other people take honor to mean, what respect means. So NSG, the question I pose to you is: How do you show that you respect someone, how do you develop or adhere to your honor, and how do you maintain self-discipline? What do those concepts mean to you?
Ok, I've not read any other posts yet, merely for the reason that I want to do this without possible influence from others.

Honor, Respect and Self-discipline.
Those three are tightly connected to each other and partly dependent on each other as well.

I will try laying down what I have developed for myself... which I claim not to necessarily have to be true for anyone else...

These three virtues are what reflects your stances on three concepts of life.

Self-discipline. This is what deals with your stance upon yourself. Your reflection of your needs, dreams, abilities and faults and fears. And the will to influence those things to the better.. or rather toward your goals.

Respect. This is what deals with your stance upon the other person. Your ways to approach differences, accept or refute advice and teaching. This includes your trust and judgment in others, their intentions and abilities.

Honor. This is what deals with your stance on society. Your hopes and goals for how society should work, your believe what should be considered right or wrong, your willingness to endure discomfort to help society whether on a large or a small scale.


All three are important virtues, but virtues which differ in its emphasis and even content from person to person.

I personally think my most developed of these virtues is respect. then comes honor. But the display and adhesion to both is influenced by my severe lack of self-discipline.
If one manages to find all three virtues well developed and in balance with each other. Then I believe, one may call himself a strong personality.

I don't really understand what you mean with respecting someone? Isn't it just respecting their 'rights'? Everybody's rights should be respected equally, even if he is a rapist. Other than that it might be socially beneficial for someone to act respectfully towards highstanding members of society, but that's just formality.

I wasn't speaking of rights, although that's an excellent side conversation. I would think that respecting someone for what they have done is important. Why do you say it's "just a formality"? That implies that respect isn't important between individuals. Or is it that you think that how society functions as a whole is manipulative and unimportant? I can't further disagree; examining how people interact and how to interact within a society is an at least interesting, if not important, study.

Ok, you agree with me then, acting ethically (or honorably if you insist on calling it that way) is important, what society thinks of those actions isn't that important.

There's a distinction between acting honorably and acting ethically however. The two often go together, but sometimes they don't coincide. For example, many posters have said acting honorably entailed following your own moral code. So then, if your moral code is different from society's moral code (society does determine ethics in the way that you were saying it affects honor), you can act honorably without acting ethically.

Isn't that self-discipline? How can someone show that they have honor when no one else is there to see it?


Actually, I see Honor and Self-Discipline as being linked. While you could possibly have Self-Discipline without Honor, you can't have Honor without Self-Discipline.

The difference is that Honor is the ability to act toward the greater good, even when it's personally disadvantageous. That's where "doing the right thing" comes into play.


How does one know how others expect them to act? That's a very individual basis for respect. How do you show respect on a broader scale?


It is, but then, respect is by its nature applied to individual cases. For example, my sons respect me, but aren't above good natured ribbing. On the ot her hand, some other fathers might see that as being disrespectful and would react severely if their own sons did it to them. On the other hand, if my sons lie to me I take it as a sign of disrespect to me as well as dishonesty, wheras others may disagree.

To show respect to the President of the United States one need only address him as Mr.President. To show respect to, say, an Emperor of Japan form a couple centuries ago, a great deal more deference and humility would have been expected to show proper respect.


What do you mean? I've always thought that 'self'-discipline applied mostly to your own actions, for example, not eating the tasty-but-fattening cake when you're on a diet. It sounds to me that you're meaning self-discipline to reflect better actions for a group instead of yourself.

Those greater goals are self-focused, like improving one's on health or education. Just as Honor is for th egreater good, simple self-discipline is for one's own benefit primarily.

I would think that respecting someone for what they have done is important. Why do you say it's "just a formality"?

I Don't get how you can respect someone other than respecting their rights without resorting to 'just formalities' (etiquette/protocol).

There's a distinction between acting honorably and acting ethically however. The two often go together, but sometimes they don't coincide. For example, many posters have said acting honorably entailed following your own moral code. So then, if your moral code is different from society's moral code (society does determine ethics in the way that you were saying it affects honor), you can act honorably without acting ethically.

I'd say you act morally if you follow your own code (seeing as how society's ethical system is wrong) you are acting ethically, and not honorably (honor is dependent on society, in some societies it's honorably to kill certain people "honor killings" while it's obviously unethical)

(I hold a 3rd degree brown, for the curious)

Thank you.

This reminds me of a story. The White Knight is riding through the woods, when he happens upon a Fair Maiden. She is in tears. "Fair Maiden, what is wrong?" asks the White Knight. "Oh, good Sir Knight, the Black Knight has robbed me of my Honor!" "Fear not, Fair Maiden, I shall avenge Thee!" And sure enough, in a half an hour, he had her Honor back ;)

I Don't get how you can respect someone other than respecting their rights without resorting to 'just formalities' (etiquette/protocol).


I think on some level the simple act of making the effort to go t hrough the protocol is considered an act of respect... Kinda like when someone makes you a birthday card instead of just buying one for you. It's the warm fuzzies.

I think on some level the simple act of making the effort to go t hrough the protocol is considered an act of respect... Kinda like when someone makes you a birthday card instead of just buying one for you. It's the warm fuzzies.

Politeness surely IS an aspect of Respect.
It is however only an aspect. And more often then not, you do not respect those you are polite to, but merely act this way because you feel it is in your honor to show respect, or feel obligated not to unnecessarily insult someone for no other reason than you not respecting him.
Same with birthday cards.

The important part of respect is something you feel however, not something you show.
Respect for a person aids your self-discipline immensely if it comes to appealing to this person.

Politeness surely IS an aspect of Respect.
It is however only an aspect. And more often then not, you do not respect those you are polite to, but merely act this way because you feel it is in your honor to show respect, or feel obligated not to unnecessarily insult someone for no other reason than you not respecting him.
Same with birthday cards.

The important part of respect is something you feel however, not something you show.
Respect for a person aids your self-discipline immensely if it comes to appealing to this person.

True, but the OP was asking how to show it. I have to show respect frequently to people for whom I feel only contempt.

True, but the OP was asking how to show it.

QFT

Actually, I see Honor and Self-Discipline as being linked. While you could possibly have Self-Discipline without Honor, you can't have Honor without Self-Discipline.

The difference is that Honor is the ability to act toward the greater good, even when it's personally disadvantageous. That's where "doing the right thing" comes into play.

But is honor necessarily a social thing? Is it possible to be honorable without other people? I agree that self-discipline and honor are linked (I would hope that all three of these principles are), so would it follow that one can be honorable without being with society?

Those greater goals are self-focused, like improving one's on health or education. Just as Honor is for th egreater good, simple self-discipline is for one's own benefit primarily.

See previous questions.

Thank you.

Welcome. :)

Really, I think I need to clarify my questions. How, specifically, does someone exemplify honor? How do you show your respect for someone? Why do you respect certain people more than others? What does honor represent to you on a more personal level?

QFT
But is honor necessarily a social thing? Is it possible to be honorable without other people? I agree that self-discipline and honor are linked (I would hope that all three of these principles are), so would it follow that one can be honorable without being with society?
See previous questions.

I wouldn't think so, because if Honor does indeed reflect behavior consistent with a greater good, then that good must lie outside one's self. It can reflect the greater good prepresented by a deity, but that's a form of social interraction between a deity and a creation, although that may be splitting hairs.

Self-discipline is a component of honor but can exist in a social vaccum, since the idea behind self-discipline is to improve or enlighten the self. There needn't be any purpose higher than that.

Honor relies on self-discipline since if one cannot control onesself to their own benefit, they can hardly be expected to reliably do the right thing as it benefits society, especially if it harms them.

I wouldn't think so, because if Honor does indeed reflect behavior consistent with a greater good, then that good must lie outside one's self. It can reflect the greater good prepresented by a deity, but that's a form of social interraction between a deity and a creation, although that may be splitting hairs.

As made obvious by my signature, I am an atheist. I reject the idea that honor has anything to do with any sort of deity. I instead submit that every individual has a set of values that they believe defines their "moral code" and how they interpret others (as Smunkee said on page one, respecting others based on their values). Is is fair then to agree that honor is simply self-discipline taken to the next level? That is what I'm hearing from the majority thus far.

As made obvious by my signature, I am an atheist. I reject the idea that honor has anything to do with any sort of deity. I instead submit that every individual has a set of values that they believe defines their "moral code" and how they interpret others (as Smunkee said on page one, respecting others based on their values). Is is fair then to agree that honor is simply self-discipline taken to the next level? That is what I'm hearing from the majority thus far.

I don't think Honor necessarily must be linked with a deity, but it can't exist in a vaccum. Can a hermit or a castaway on a deserted island act dishonorably? Honorably? Without the interaction with a society of some kind, however small, his actions can only be measured as being disciplined or not. Does he eat to excess? Does he behave unnaturally with local animals? Does he distill alcohol and drink too much?

I guess another way to put it is that unless others can be affected by behavoir, honor means nothing, but self-discipline still has meaning.

I'm not sure what Honour and Respect mean to most people, but I use respect as an acknowledgement I make of a person's ability to act in an empathic manner, while being honourable is being someone who can stick by the agreed rules, even in a graceful acceptance of defeat.

It must be said, though, that the term Honour carries a certain disrepute in this country. Respect and Honour are often at odds with one another in my understanding, especially when the rules one plays by carry the potential for harm.

I'm not sure what Honour and Respect mean to most people, but I use respect as an acknowledgement I make of a person's ability to act in an empathic manner, while being honourable is being someone who can stick by the agreed rules, even in a graceful acceptance of defeat.

It must be said, though, that the term Honour carries a certain disrepute in this country. Respect and Honour are often at odds with one another in my understanding, especially when the rules one plays by carry the potential for harm.

It's easy to imagine a scenario in which honor and respect can be at odds. For example, what if I know something embarassing about a person whom I respect. I can sacrifice honesty by covering up that knowledge so they save face (and by sacrificing honesty one sacrifices honor) or I can sacrifice respect to preserve the truth and let that knowledge be exposed.

But still another angle could be that by sustaining respect, I sustain trust from that person and thus honor is served anyway...

But suppose that person is acting dishonorably...

This is why there can't really be a hard and precise definition...

I'm curious as to what other people take honor to mean, what respect means. So NSG, the question I pose to you is: How do you show that you respect someone, how do you develop or adhere to your honor, and how do you maintain self-discipline? What do those concepts mean to you?

Notions of respect and honour are culture-specific. Among my people, you show respect by honouring elders and children first. You do not address elders by name, you use an honorific or use a generationally appropriate kinship term (regardless of actual kinship). You do not look them in the eye when they speak to you, or when speaking to them. You respect people in general by letting them have their say, and not cutting them off, including children. You honour yourself and others by treating all of creation as your relations, by taking nothing for granted and showing gratitude for everything you receive. You honour others by praising them; you do not praise yourself.

The forms in which I show honour and respect change according to cultural norms.

I agree. Although, I would really call that first level of respect simple politeness. I suppose the two go hand-in-hand.
To me simple politeness is merely the manners with which one expresses oneself. One can be perfectly polite while one is humiliating and mistreating another person. Serial killer Ted Bundy was said to have charming manners, but he could hardly have been described as showing even the most basic respect to his victims -- or even to the police and the media with whom he played his little mindgames.

I value politeness, but I value respect more. If you respect me, I can overlook your bad manners. If you don't respect me, your politeness just adds insult to injury.

But can someone lose even that first level of respect? Is there any reason that someone shouldn't be respected at all?
No. A living being is a living being, end of discussion. All deserve the same respect and consideration for their sense of self, their dignity (whatever that may mean to them). Since I think that way, there is no way I could ever make an exception to that rule.


:D That's exactly what I had in mind! I wanted some examples to pick at when I have some free time to just sit and think. Do you think there are levels of self-discipline also?
Possibly, but I don't really care about that part of the discussion.

I was thinking about this while running errands earlier, and it reminded me of a short story by Saki, called "Reginald at the Theatre" in which Reginald, a young man, has a conversation with a older Duchess while not watching a play. Near the end, it contained this:

Duchess: "Oh, you're simply exasperating. You've been reading Nietzsche till you haven't got any sense of moral proportion left. May I ask if you are governed by any laws of conduct whatever?"

Reginald: "There are certain fixed rules that one observes for one's own comfort. For instance, never be flippantly rude to any inoffensive, grey-bearded stranger that you may meet in forests or hotel smoking-rooms on the Continent. It always turns out to be the King of Sweden."

Duchess: "The restraint must be dreadfully irksome to you. When I was younger, boys of your age used to be nice and innocent."

Reginald: "Now we are only nice. One must specialize in these days."

But is honor necessarily a social thing? Is it possible to be honorable without other people? I agree that self-discipline and honor are linked (I would hope that all three of these principles are), so would it follow that one can be honorable without being with society?

If you think of "honorable" as linked to or even synonymous with "ethical," then yes, you can be honorable without reference to society. This is because ethics are personal to an individual, and if the person defines honor as behaving in an ethical manner, then they will do that in all circumstances regardless of other people. I think that those of us who linked honor to personal integrity are thinking along those lines.

On the other hand, if you think of "honor" as something that affects your social reputation, then obviously, society is a necessary part of that.

Welcome. :)

Really, I think I need to clarify my questions. How, specifically, does someone exemplify honor?
I tie honor to integrity, which I define as always acting in accordance with one's ethics. People who behave in such a manner I would describe as honorable. I may not like them or their ethics, but I cannot fault them on the integrity/honor issue.

How do you show your respect for someone?
By treating them as I would like to be treated, i.e. as an equal. At the most basic level, that means treating them in a way that recognizes their dignity and intelligence. At the level at which respect must be earned, that means giving them their fair due for their skills and accomplishments and paying kind for kind in how we treat each other.

Why do you respect certain people more than others?
I don't respect hypocrites, liars, excessively selfish people, or people who live as if they are better than and have rights over other people. I don't care whether such people are rich or educated or in positions of power. They are scum in my eyes. I do respect everybody else, regardless of who they are, what they do, where they went to school, etc.

What does honor represent to you on a more personal level?
Honor is the foundation of self-respect. Dishonor brings only shame.

Respect needs to be earned to me, i be perfectly nice to you but i ma have no respect for you. I know alot of people like this.

Honor is a meaningless concept

Went off to class, and now that I'm back I find I want to respond to everyone, and this is what I got. :p

Notions of respect and honour are culture-specific. ... <snip> ... The forms in which I show honour and respect change according to cultural norms.

Are they really? It seems to me that what you described is what Isidoor was saying before about society determining your actions. I think that being respectful towards Grandparents, for example, is something that is simply expected, whether you actually respect them or not. What I'm trying to get at is how you interpret respect on a more personal level. So, for example, how would you show that you respect one grandparent over another, if you are supposed to respect both?

If you think of "honorable" as linked to or even synonymous with "ethical," then yes, you can be honorable without reference to society. This is because ethics are personal to an individual, and if the person defines honor as behaving in an ethical manner, then they will do that in all circumstances regardless of other people. I think that those of us who linked honor to personal integrity are thinking along those lines.

On the other hand, if you think of "honor" as something that affects your social reputation, then obviously, society is a necessary part of that.

Isn't it both though? Obviously everyone tries to be moral according to their own values, but that doesn't mean we ignore the social aspect of our actions. I don't think we can.

By treating them as I would like to be treated, i.e. as an equal. At the most basic level, that means treating them in a way that recognizes their dignity and intelligence. At the level at which respect must be earned, that means giving them their fair due for their skills and accomplishments and paying kind for kind in how we treat each other.

I like this a lot. See, this helps me flesh out my explanation of why I respect people as friends. I've always put my friends before myself, and so I guess as respecting people at the level of my friends would mean, to me, that I would put their interests before mine. (To a point, of course)

Respect needs to be earned to me, i be perfectly nice to you but i ma have no respect for you. I know alot of people like this.

Honor is a meaningless concept

I agree about the respect. I think that if people want more than basic politeness from me, then they need to earn it. Admittedly, this is easier done if you're accomplished in life, but there you go. I strongly disagree that honor is a meaningless concept. That's nearly the same thing as saying morals are a meaningless concept. Honor is what, IMHO, keeps a person from acting out against their character, their fiber, whatever, and against society in general. It's different from ethics, as there are parallels, because, like we established earlier, ethics and honor aren't always linked.

It's "honour" misspelt.

It's "honour" misspelt.

I think you mean misspelled.:p

It's "honour" misspelt.

When Sweden wins a revolution against the British crown, then a Swede can dictate how to spell English words. Until then, enjoy the gravlax.

<snip>

Isn't it both though? Obviously everyone tries to be moral according to their own values, but that doesn't mean we ignore the social aspect of our actions. I don't think we can.

<snip>
One of my personal heroes is Giles Corey, the only man killed as a result of the Salem Witch Craze. In his society, it was considered good to submit to authority and beneficial to society to accept notions such as witchcraft and to cooperate with authorities seeking to root it out of the community. When accusations of witchcraft started flying, the accused were expected to save their souls and show willingness to conform to social norms by doing the "right thing" by accusing more people -- naming names -- to help the authorities root out the evil.

But Giles Corey was the kind of person who didn't buy into that sort of thing. He was a maverick who went his own way and spoke his own mind. When he was accused, he was offered clemency if he would confess and name other "witches." He refused to do either and stated in court that he would not cooperate with a proceeding he considered illegitimate. Standard procedure was to torture a confession out of him. The court ordered him to be "pressed," which involved tying him down, putting a board over him, and piling rocks onto the board, slowly increasing the pressure on his chest over time -- extremely slow and extremely painful. Every time they added more rocks, they would ask him again to confess and name others, and every time, Giles Corey said just one thing: "More weight." I believe it took them three days to crush him to death.

I consider Giles Gorey to be an honorable person. His actions were ethical, and they certainly did have an effect on his society, but I somehow doubt the social effect was foremost in his mind at the time. I think the only thing he was thinking was that there was no way in hell those hypocritical bastards were going to force him to tell their lies for them. He did what he did -- and sacrificed his own life -- for himself, not for his neighbors. He did it to maintain his self-respect, his sense of right and wrong, his integrity.

Oh, by the way, I personally prefer the word "ethical" to the word "moral." People use them interchangeably, but they're really not. I concern myself with ethics far more than morals.

Honor is something that will get you killed in a fight.

Honor is something that will get you killed in a fight.

Not if your aim is good.

honor is doing what is right legally and morally (morally taking precedence in my opinion), regardless of the consequences (death, imprisonment, torture, etc...)

honor, respect, and self-discipline.
I think that honor, personal honor, is to do actions with integrity and honesty, and to honor someone would be to acknowledge their personal honor.

I'm curious as to what other people take honor to mean, what respect means. So NSG, the question I pose to you is: How do you show that you respect someone, how do you develop or adhere to your honor, and how do you maintain self-discipline? What do those concepts mean to you?

Honour to me is basically having a reason to be nice to another person, in a formal way.
Respect seems to be part of the basics of politeness and generally being a caring person.
Self-discipline is your conditioned drive or ego to achieve a certain goal without any outside help, which can be useful. similar to determination i think.

Of course like most human concepts these things can be twisted into quite nasty things, such as 'honour killing', or respect could be twisted to giving in to a higher authority, and self-discipline could be related to arrogance.
That's not to say these are bad to have, but it's a reminder that seemingly admirable qualities can be used negatively given the right conditions.
So in conclusion, these three things also need to be supported by a balanced psyche and social network. Without these, people can do some pretty strange things.

Honor is maintained through the use of self-discipline, and is relative to your principles.

To me, respect is context-specific; given accomplishment in area A, respect is earned in regards to area A. If you are knowledgeable and experienced in a craft, for example, you are respected in matters related to that craft.

Respect amounts to elevated consideration. If I respect something about someone, I take it (positively; disrespect would be the opposite) into account, meaning that, as applicable, I trust and/or care more for their efforts, and/or would find spending time and/or effort in being helpful to them more meaningful, in regards to that something.

"Base respect" simply amounts to honesty, constructiveness (and being brutally honest might well be more constructive when looking at the bigger picture) and respecting "free will" where possible.

Self-discipline amounts to having a will and making that will the greatest authority in deciding your behavior, internal or external.