NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm not sure whether or not you will have heard about this already, however Virgin Media' CEO has declared that he believes net neutrality "a load of bollocks", and he intends to limit bandwidth for virgin broadband users, so that only sites that pay Virgin media will load faster, (much like the principle of screen-time for adverts on television) and the rest of us will be allocated in the "bus lane" and smaller sites will load much slower, and eventually die away as nobody else is prepared to use them. Even larger sites who are not prepared to bow will eventually die away.


We have power as users of forums, as users of Youtube, Myspace, Bebo etc. to make a stand against this internet totalitarianism. The internet has possibly been the most important technological advance since the wheel, it has given people the power to communicate seamlessy across continents. It has essentially made everybody equal; and now the sites and forums that the average user loves the most are under threat.

If enough people make it known that we as a community on Nationstates, and we as a community on the internet as a whole will not stand for this, then Virgin will have no choice but to back down. If we allow this, other ISPs will think it's alright to take away people's freedoms. We can be the generation who made the internet great, or we can be the generation who killed all it stood for. So my plea for Nationstates, - digg it, Youtube it, bulletin it, post it, place banners in your sigs, email Virgin, email other ISps asking their opinion. Please.


Banners can be found at http://stopvirgin.movielol.org

I was so expecting a rick-roll.

Sweet girl!

I clicked 'I like it' on Stumbleupon.

I should be, but I'm not, fully informed about Net Neutrality, I've never seen real evidence of trucks being jammed in the tubes so I'm not sure where the argument for extra payment for bandwidth comes from.

I'm sure Branson is quivering in his boots tonight at the thought of the forums and social networking sites being angry with him. Why, as soon as the people in International Incidents declare war on him, he's sure to back down.

Alternatively, this thing will work out the same way all things work out; with market forces. Videos made by geeks and girls with their tits hanging out are unlikely to make much of an impact, no matter how many people place banners in their sigs.

I was so expecting a rick-roll.

Sweet girl!

I clicked 'I like it' on Stumbleupon.

I should be, but I'm not, fully informed about Net Neutrality, I've never seen real evidence of trucks being jammed in the tubes so I'm not sure where the argument for extra payment for bandwidth comes from.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMU0tzLwhbE
That would be the link you where actually looking for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMU0tzLwhbE
That would be the link you where actually looking for.

That guy is a freak, no two ways about it.

It [the internet] has essentially made everybody equal

That sentence is so loaded, I'm afraid it might explode if I go near it.

he intends to limit bandwidth for virgin broadband users, so that only sites that pay Virgin media will load faster
I don't understand...

Users and companies pay ISPs for internet connections. Websites pay web hosting services for servers and bandwidth. Why should websites pay a random ISP they have no connection to for bandwidth they have already bought from a web hosting service?

Won't an ISP who discriminates among traffic lose their common carrier defence?

Why would any customers choose an ISP that offers poor quality due to intentionally crippling the service they provide?

I don't understand...

Users and companies pay ISPs for internet connections. Websites pay web hosting services for servers and bandwidth. Why should websites pay a random ISP they have no connection to for bandwidth they have already bought from a web hosting service?

Won't an ISP who discriminates among traffic lose their common carrier defence?

Why would any customers choose an ISP that offers poor quality due to intentionally crippling the service they provide?

1.) Exactly, they shouldn't.

2.) Maybe, but a specific law requiring them to be net-neutral did not get passed. The common carrier status is, as you said, a defence, so it will only be tested if an ISP ends up in court over content they did deliver. I'm not sure how often that happens, especially since nobody is quite sure whether the common carrier defence still applies to discriminating ISPs.

3.) ISPs form local monopolies in the less connected areas of the US, I have heard. Several friends in the US have told me that only one or two ISPs cover the places where they live.

Also, have you ever switched ISPs?

This is pretty bad...I am not sure how they will manage it considering RIPA but something to be aware of is Phorm...which also violates RIPA

http://www.phorm.com/

http://www.badphorm.co.uk/

http://security.homeoffice.gov.uk/ripa/about-ripa/

So Phorm allows ISP's to sell your web browsing habits....well not a major issue but it is if you do not know about it and it actively intercepts your communication (see RIPA).

Here is a one line petition about phorm.... http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ispphorm/

These two items...Phorm and 'net neutrality' are a serious threat to privacy...its another wedge between your right as a human to search for knowledge and that of the powers that be that really would rather control the net as much as possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMU0tzLwhbE
That would be the link you where actually looking for.

Hmmm I wonder if this guy was a German Stormtrooper in his past life?

That guy is a freak, no two ways about it.

/thread drift

Balmer is...a great salesman...thing is all that bouncing around and yeahs and the like (check out the monkey boy vid) but the fact is that he is or was their top sales dude...probably still is...

I've been there when we are scoping new kit/OS's and our CEO gets a call from Balmer and well...that decision is made for us.

Happens all the time. Hopefully though with the total fuck up vista has been that will stop ;)

/end thread drift

3.) ISPs form local monopolies in the less connected areas of the US, I have heard. Several friends in the US have told me that only one or two ISPs cover the places where they live.

Also, have you ever switched ISPs?
Oh, monopolies, yeah they could get away with a lot, this could turn out bad for those in areas with poor connectivity.:(

Yes, I have switched ISPs twice, from dail up to 2Mbps broadband with poor stability from the local cable TV company, then to stable 100Mbps broadband over Ethernet. If I switched my telephone back from Ethernet to landline I could pick any telephone provider and also get 24Mbps ADSL from them. Several cell phone providers also offer mobile broadband with 3 to 7Mbps. There are at least a dozen different ISPs to choose from here, plus Wi-Fi hotspots everywhere.

I'm not sure whether or not you will have heard about this already, however Virgin Media' CEO has declared that he believes net neutrality "a load of bollocks", and he intends to limit bandwidth for virgin broadband users, so that only sites that pay Virgin media will load faster, (much like the principle of screen-time for adverts on television) and the rest of us will be allocated in the "bus lane" and smaller sites will load much slower, and eventually die away as nobody else is prepared to use them. Even larger sites who are not prepared to bow will eventually die away.


We have power as users of forums, as users of Youtube, Myspace, Bebo etc. to make a stand against this internet totalitarianism. The internet has possibly been the most important technological advance since the wheel, it has given people the power to communicate seamlessy across continents. It has essentially made everybody equal; and now the sites and forums that the average user loves the most are under threat.

If enough people make it known that we as a community on Nationstates, and we as a community on the internet as a whole will not stand for this, then Virgin will have no choice but to back down. If we allow this, other ISPs will think it's alright to take away people's freedoms. We can be the generation who made the internet great, or we can be the generation who killed all it stood for. So my plea for Nationstates, - digg it, Youtube it, bulletin it, post it, place banners in your sigs, email Virgin, email other ISps asking their opinion. Please.


Banners can be found at http://stopvirgin.movielol.org

Umm if the smaller sites are smaller won't they load quicker?

Umm if the smaller sites are smaller won't they load quicker?

Smaller in terms of popularity is not the same as smaller in terms of bandwidth required to go there.

Smaller in terms of popularity is not the same as smaller in terms of bandwidth required to go there.

Joke man joke, I was joking!

Yes, I have switched ISPs twice, from dail up to 2Mbps broadband with poor stability from the local cable TV company, then to stable 100Mbps broadband over Ethernet. If I switched my telephone back from Ethernet to landline I could pick any telephone provider and also get 24Mbps ADSL from them. Several cell phone providers also offer mobile broadband with 3 to 7Mbps. There are at least a dozen different ISPs to choose from here, plus Wi-Fi hotspots everywhere.

Damn you Europeans and your high standards of internet connectivity! :D

Someone get Anonymous on this pronto.

Of course, all this guy has to do is stick 4chan in the "bus lane" and they'll rip him apart.

I'm not sure whether or not you will have heard about this already, however Virgin Media' CEO has declared that he believes net neutrality "a load of bollocks", and he intends to limit bandwidth for virgin broadband users, so that only sites that pay Virgin media will load faster, (much like the principle of screen-time for adverts on television) and the rest of us will be allocated in the "bus lane" and smaller sites will load much slower, and eventually die away as nobody else is prepared to use them. Even larger sites who are not prepared to bow will eventually die away.


We have power as users of forums, as users of Youtube, Myspace, Bebo etc. to make a stand against this internet totalitarianism. The internet has possibly been the most important technological advance since the wheel, it has given people the power to communicate seamlessy across continents. It has essentially made everybody equal; and now the sites and forums that the average user loves the most are under threat.

If enough people make it known that we as a community on Nationstates, and we as a community on the internet as a whole will not stand for this, then Virgin will have no choice but to back down. If we allow this, other ISPs will think it's alright to take away people's freedoms. We can be the generation who made the internet great, or we can be the generation who killed all it stood for. So my plea for Nationstates, - digg it, Youtube it, bulletin it, post it, place banners in your sigs, email Virgin, email other ISps asking their opinion. Please.


Banners can be found at http://stopvirgin.movielol.org

Would visit site but my Virgin Bus-lane wouldn't go fast enough to load the site so I gave up

...he intends to limit bandwidth for virgin broadband users...

What about the broadband users who aren't virgins? Do they squeak by un-noticed and unhampered?

Smart-ass comments aside. I think this comment pretty much nails how things will boil out

I'm sure Branson is quivering in his boots tonight at the thought of the forums and social networking sites being angry with him. Why, as soon as the people in International Incidents declare war on him, he's sure to back down.

Alternatively, this thing will work out the same way all things work out; with market forces. Videos made by geeks and girls with their tits hanging out are unlikely to make much of an impact, no matter how many people place banners in their sigs.

Count me out of this forum revolution. Virgin Media should be free to use its property, in this case bandwidth, as it wishes.

Count me out of this forum revolution. Virgin Media should be free to use its property, in this case bandwidth, as it wishes.

Not when it restricts others' use of the Internet. The Internet isn't anyone's property. Your right to swing your hammer ends where my head begins.

Not when it restricts others' use of the Internet. The Internet isn't anyone's property. Your right to swing your hammer ends where my head begins.

Well, we are also free not to use Virgin Media's internet service.

Well, we are also free not to use Virgin Media's internet service.
Not where it holds a local monopoly.

Not where it holds a local monopoly.

Well, shouldn't that be covered under current anti-monopoly laws? Providers who hold a monopoly in certain areas (due to technical difficulties in competition) are required to submit to certain regulations and laws.

If discrimination in service is not covered there, then it should be added, but that should be part of the monopoly exception provisions.

However, in areas where no monopoly exists, they should be free to do as they feel they should from a business perspective.

Count me out of this forum revolution. Virgin Media should be free to use its property, in this case bandwidth, as it wishes.

And you officially prove yourself to be an utter, absolute hypocrite. Well done.

Seriously, you claim to be all about civil rights and letting people control their own information and whatnot, and you're actually supporting something that would serious undermine that? I'm really hoping it's only because you don't fully understand the ramifications.

Count me out of this forum revolution. Virgin Media should be free to use its property, in this case bandwidth, as it wishes.

Is bandwidth "property" in the sense you mean, though?

If "bandwidth" was an enormous block of chocolate, then yes they could set the terms of anyone else using it. But it isn't property in that sense, is it?

For one thing, it only has value if it is used. A block of chocolate which is not eaten one minute keeps most of it's value as food for the next minute. Bandwidth which isn't used in one minute is gone. If the provider paid for it but couldn't sell it, they're a sucker. If the consumer paid for it but didn't use it, they're a sucker.

Bandwidth is a traded commodity, certainly. But if you would define "property" as anything which can be traded for money, you must also acknowledge limitations on that by law, lest you allow that a human life is property.

You can't reduce this question to one of playground simplicity ("their property"). The internet is more than the sum of its parts, AND it's inherently public, AND it's an organ of free speech. NO PART of it is simple private property.

Pfft, ISPs in the UK are incompetent. They seem to think 10Mbps is super fast, and poorly forecasted the the growth in internet traffic, especially TV-over-internet services. My internet service has gotten noticeably worse recently with the continued growth of sites like youtube and facebook and the launch of services like Channel 4's 4OD and the BBC's iPlayer. The iPlayer was launched about 6 months ago and now takes up 1% or something of total internet traffic in the UK. Not too shabby at all.

And how do ISPs respond this? Instead of using their own money to upgrade facilities they demand that the BBC subsidise their business and pay for the upgrades instead.

Well, we are also free not to use Virgin Media's internet service.
Virgin is campaigning for the right to meddle in other ISPs services. So no, you would not be free to not use Virgin Media.

Not when it restricts others' use of the Internet. The Internet isn't anyone's property. Your right to swing your hammer ends where my head begins.

But you have to use Virgin Mobile's infrastructure in order to access the internet, like their routers or fiber optics. I oppose any physical invasion of that property just the same as I would oppose someone breaking into my house.

And you officially prove yourself to be an utter, absolute hypocrite. Well done.

Seriously, you claim to be all about civil rights and letting people control their own information and whatnot, and you're actually supporting something that would serious undermine that? I'm really hoping it's only because you don't fully understand the ramifications.

Actually, I am not being hypocritical at all, since I do not believe in rights as a nebulous conception like "free speech" but as being rooted to the right to control property. You can say what you want in your own house, but can only say what you have permission to say on another person's property (and they have the option of kicking you out.) Likewise, you can send whatever data you want over your own local network, but can only send data with the permission of whoever owns the network you are using, which in this case would be Virgin Mobile.

Venndee what if you don't support bourgeois property?

I'm not sure whether or not you will have heard about this already, however Virgin Media' CEO has declared that he believes net neutrality "a load of bollocks", and he intends to limit bandwidth for virgin broadband users, so that only sites that pay Virgin media will load faster, (much like the principle of screen-time for adverts on television) and the rest of us will be allocated in the "bus lane" and smaller sites will load much slower, and eventually die away as nobody else is prepared to use them. Even larger sites who are not prepared to bow will eventually die away.


We have power as users of forums, as users of Youtube, Myspace, Bebo etc. to make a stand against this internet totalitarianism. The internet has possibly been the most important technological advance since the wheel, it has given people the power to communicate seamlessy across continents. It has essentially made everybody equal; and now the sites and forums that the average user loves the most are under threat.

If enough people make it known that we as a community on Nationstates, and we as a community on the internet as a whole will not stand for this, then Virgin will have no choice but to back down. If we allow this, other ISPs will think it's alright to take away people's freedoms. We can be the generation who made the internet great, or we can be the generation who killed all it stood for. So my plea for Nationstates, - digg it, Youtube it, bulletin it, post it, place banners in your sigs, email Virgin, email other ISps asking their opinion. Please.

Banners can be found at http://stopvirgin.movielol.org

I don't see that happening. Virgin doing that will do nothing but piss off their users and some other provider picking em up as they leave Virgin. Unless there is something in place that makes Virgin the ONLY ISP that people can use, they are only shooting themselves in the foot. Especially when other ISP's can steal Virgin's customer base with claims of faster response time and cheaper rates for websites/hosting.

This has nothing to do with Net Neutrality (as I know it) since it's not the Government trying to control things but one company among many making a very, VERY bad marketing decision.

Virgin is campaigning for the right to meddle in other ISPs services. So no, you would not be free to not use Virgin Media.

it's only going to affect subscribers of Virgin Media. subscribers of other ISP will not be affected by Virgin's tactics unless they adopt it for their own.

It's the CEO, not Branson. I still have some faith in his awesomeness...

Anybody who's interested in net neutrality in the States should check out the Free Press Action Fund's website, appropriately titled:

http://www.savetheinternet.com/ (http://www.savetheinternet.com/)

Venndee what if you don't support bourgeois property?

Tough.