NationStates Jolt Archive

If you are an educated Christian, I would like to talk with you today about an important and interesting question. Have you ever thought about using your college education to think about your faith? Your life and your career demand that you behave and act rationally. Let's apply your critical thinking skills as we discuss 10 simple questions about your religion.

Here is an example of the kind of thing I am talking about: As a Christian, you believe in the power of prayer. According to a recent poll (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42061), 3 out of 4 doctors believe that God is performing medical miracles on earth right now. Most Christians believe that God is curing cancers, healing diseases, reversing the effects of poisons and so on.

So here is question 1: Why won't God heal amputees?

It's a simple question, isn't it? We all know that amputated legs do not spontaneously regenerate in response to prayer. Amputees get no miracles from God.

If you are an intelligent person, you have to admit that it's an interesting question On the one hand, you believe that God answers prayers and performs miracles. On the other hand, you know that God completely ignores amputees when they pray for miracles.

How do you deal with this discrepancy? As an intelligent person, you have to deal with it, because it makes no sense. In order to handle it, notice that you have to create some kind of rationalization. You have to invent an excuse on God's behalf to explain this strange fact of life. You might say, "well, God must have some kind of special plan for amputees." So you invent your excuse, whatever it is, and then you stop thinking about it because it is uncomfortable.

Here is another example. As a Christian, you believe that God cares about you and answers your prayers.

So the second question is: Why are there so many starving people in our world?

Look out at our world and notice that millions of children are dying of starvation. It really is horrific. Why would God be worried about you getting a raise, while at the same time ignoring the prayers of these desperate, innocent little children? It really doesn't make any sense, does it? Why would a loving god do this?

To explain it, you have to come up with some sort of very strange excuse for God. Like, "God wants these children to suffer and die for some divine, mysterious reason." Then you push it out of your mind because it absolutely does not fit with your view of a loving, caring God.

Third question: Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people in the Bible? Look up these verses:

- Exodus 35:2 – God demands that we kill everyone who works on the Sabbath day.

- Deuteronomy 21:18-21 – God demands that we kill disobedient teenagers.

- Leviticus 20:13 – God demands the death of homosexuals.

- Deuteronomy 22:13-21 – God demands that we kill girls who are not virgins when they marry.

And so on… There are lots of verses like these.

It doesn't make any sense, does it? Why would a loving God want us to murder our fellow human beings over such trivial matters? Just because you work on the wrong day of the week, you must die? That makes no sense, does it? In fact, if you think about it, you realize that it is insane. So you create some kind of rationalization to explain these verses.

Question 4: Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense? You have a college degree, so you know what I'm talking about. You know how science works. You happily use the products of science every day: your car, your cell phone, your microwave oven, your TV, your computer. These are all products of the scientific process. You know that science is incredibly important to our economy and to our lives.

But there is a problem. As an educated person you know that the Bible contains all sorts of information that is total nonsense from a scientific perspective.

- God did not create the world in 6 days 6,000 years ago like the Bible says.

- There was never a worldwide flood that covered Mt. Everest like the Bible says.

- Jonah did not live inside a fish's stomach for three days like the Bible says.

- God did not create Adam from a handful of dust like the Bible says.

These stories are all nonsense. Why would an all-knowing God write nonsense? It makes no sense, does it? So you create some type of very strange excuse to try to explain why the Bible contains total nonsense.

Question 5: Why is God such a huge proponent of slavery in the Bible? Look up these Bible verses:

- Exodus 21:20-21 – God says that it is OK to own slaves, and it is also OK to beat them.

- Colossians 3:22-24 – Slaves need to obey their masters.

- Ephesians 6:5 – Slaves need to obey their masters just as they would obey Christ.

- 1 Peter 2:18 – Slaves need to obey their masters, even if their masters are harsh .

And so on…

And why do all intelligent people abhor slavery and make it completely illegal? You have to come up with some kind of weird rationalization to explain it.

Question 6: Why do bad things happen to good people? That makes no sense. You have created an exotic excuse on God's behalf to rationalize it.

Question 7: Why didn't any of Jesus' miracles in the Bible leave behind any evidence? It's very strange, isn't it? You have created an excuse to rationalize it.

Question 8: How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you? Jesus is all-powerful and timeless, but if you pray for Jesus to appear, nothing happens. You have to create a weird rationalization to deal with this discrepancy.

Question 9 – Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood? It sounds totally grotesque, doesn't it? Why would al all-powerful God want you to do something that, in any other context, sounds like a disgusting, cannibalistic, satanic ritual?

And finally, Question 10 – Why do Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians? Christians get married in front of God and their Christian friends, all of whom are praying to God for the marriage to succeed. And then they say, "What God has put together, let no man put asunder." God is all-powerful, so if God has put two people together that should seal the deal, right? Yet Christians get divorced at the same rate as everyone else. To explain this, you have to create some convoluted rationalization.

So, we have looked at 10 fascinating questions. In order to believe in God, you have had to create all sorts of strange rationalizations and excuses. If you are an intelligent, college-educated person, all of these excuses and rationalizations probably make you uncomfortable. If you think about it honestly, using the critical thinking skills that you learned in college, you have to admit that your answers to these questions make no sense at all.

Now, let me show you something remarkable. What if you instead assume that God is imaginary? A funny thing happens: the answers to every one of these questions make complete sense. Just look at all ten questions as an intelligent person:

1) Why won't God heal amputees? Because God is imaginary, and he doesn't answer any prayers. Every "answered prayer" is actually a coincidence. All scientific evidence supports this conclusion.

2) Why are there so many starving people in our world? Because God is imaginary, and he is therefore unable to answer their prayers.

3) Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people in the Bible? Because God is imaginary, and the Bible was written by ridiculous, ruthless men rather than any sort of loving being.

4) Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense? Ditto. Primitive men wrote the bible, not an all-knowing being.

5) Why is God such a huge proponent of slavery? Ditto.

6) Why do bad things happen to good people? Because God is imaginary and bad things happen at the same statistical rates to everyone.

7) Why didn't any of Jesus' miracles in the Bible leave behind any evidence? Because God is imaginary, and Jesus' miracles are myths.

8) How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you? Because God is imaginary.

9) Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood? Because God is imaginary, and this bizarre ritual came from a pagan religion.

10) Why do Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians? Because God is imaginary.

Do you see what has happened here? When we assume that God exists, the answers to these ten questions make absolutely no sense. But if we assume that God is imaginary, our world makes complete sense.

It's interesting, isn't it? Actually, it's more than interesting – it is incredibly important.

Our world only makes sense when we understand that God is imaginary.

This is how intelligent, rational people know that God is imaginary.

When you use your brain, and when you think logically about your religious faith, you can reach only one possible conclusion: the "god" that you have heard about since you were an infant is completely imaginary. You have to willfully discard rationality, and accept hundreds of bizarre rationalizations to believe in your "god."

Now, let me ask you one last question: Why should you care? What difference does it make if people want to believe in a "god", even if he is imaginary?

It matters because people who believe in imaginary beings are delusional.

It matters because people who talk to imaginary beings are delusional.

It matters because people who believe in imaginary superstitions like prayer are delusional.

It's that simple, and that obvious. Your religious beliefs hurt you personally and hurt us as a species because they are delusional. The belief in any "god" is complete nonsense.

You are a smart person. It is time for you to use your intelligence to free yourself from these delusions. It is time for you to begin thinking like a rational human being, rather than clinging to imaginary friends and childhood fantasies.


http://GodIsImaginary.com

http://WhyWontGodHealAmputees.com

This won't end well.

Since when did GOD say he would interfere with the natural course of life? This isn't coming from a Christian but a Muslim. Also the definition of GOD is what to the OP?

This won't end well.

I predict thread lock.

So here is question 1: Why won't God heal amputees?

If you are an intelligent person, you have to admit that it's an interesting question On the one hand, you believe that God answers prayers and performs miracles. On the other hand, you know that God completely ignores amputees when they pray for miracles.


If theyre an amputee there is a chance there wont be another hand.


Thats right. I went there.

I predict thread lock.

Quite likely. Or a Ragnarok level Wrath of Mod.

Since when did GOD say he would interfere with the natural course of life? This isn't coming from a Christian but a Muslim. Also the definition of GOD is what to the OP?

when did god day anything!?!

No matter how you try, you simply can not prove God does not exist. Not with "intelligence", logic or imagination.

You don't believe in God. Fair enough. Some people do. You could leave it at that.

1) Why won't God heal amputees?
Where does it say that god will cure all man's ills?
2) Why are there so many starving people in our world?
Once again, people have free will, god never stated that he would solve all man's problems for us.
3) Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people in the Bible?
Because the Bible was written by ruthless men rather than any sort of loving being.
4) Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense?
Primitive men wrote the bible, not an all-knowing being.
5) Why is God such a huge proponent of slavery?
Primitive men wrote the bible, not an all-knowing being.
6) Why do bad things happen to good people?
Once again, god never said that he would coddle us.
7) Why didn't any of Jesus' miracles in the Bible leave behind any evidence?
What miracles are you expecting to leave behind evidence after 2000 years?
8) How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you?
How do you know that he hasn't? You don't.
9) Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood?
It is a symbolic act representing your acceptance of him as your savior.
10) Why do Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians?
Because people are not infallible.

Quite likely. Or a Ragnarok level Wrath of Mod.

Dude, did you win the trial because I forgot to show up, or vice versa?

This thread will last forever, because after all, such an original array of questions will keep the real thinkers in a tizzy.

If theyre an amputee there is a chance there wont be another hand.


Thats right. I went there.

Aw dude, now you're going to be reborn as an octopus or a spider, 'cause God don't make no junk.

Where does it say that god will cure all man's ills?

Once again, people have free will, god never stated that he would solve all man's problems for us.

Because the Bible was written by ruthless men rather than any sort of loving being.

Primitive men wrote the bible, not an all-knowing being.

Primitive men wrote the bible, not an all-knowing being.

Once again, god never said that he would coddle us.

What miracles are you expecting to leave behind evidence after 2000 years?

How do you know that he hasn't? You don't.

It is a symbolic act representing your acceptance of him as your savior.

Because people are not infallible.

Ephesuronomy, 1:15 "I, God, contractually agree to cure all man's ills pending approval by the general practitioner or other licensed primary care giver meeting the criteria as described in Exodus"

God never promised Free Will. He promised Free Willy, and came through years ago.

God does coddle us, since unlike certain species of mosquito, our genitalia don't explode bloodily upon orgasm. Or maybe yours do, but that's a pre-existing condition.

People are infallible, they're just bad at it.

here is my response

1) Why won't God heal amputees? Because God is imaginary, and he doesn't answer any prayers. Every "answered prayer" is actually a coincidence. All scientific evidence supports this conclusion.

wrong, because god wants you to belive in him through faith and not miricles like reattaching your arm

2) Why are there so many starving people in our world? Because God is imaginary, and he is therefore unable to answer their prayers.

because either

1. they dont belive in god/jesus

2. they mad bad decisions, sinned, and if god gave everyone everything then they would never do anything and just sit around all day

3) Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people in the Bible? Because God is imaginary, and the Bible was written by ridiculous, ruthless men rather than any sort of loving being.

because, he wants the isralites to OBEY, and because he wants to clear it out of all the people that god does not accept, but that was only in the old testement

4) Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense? Ditto. Primitive men wrote the bible, not an all-knowing being.

becuase its the bible, god exists, so he can do anything, besides all this scientific nonsense, is made mostly by non christians, some buy people that want to kill it

5) Why is God such a huge proponent of slavery? Ditto.

maybe back then, but back then they had to treat them right and free them after 7 years

6) Why do bad things happen to good people? Because God is imaginary and bad things happen at the same statistical rates to everyone.

becuase if you get killed its likely the fault of someone else, who did something wrong, like tried to kill you, drank and drive, failed to maintain an aircraft properly

7) Why didn't any of Jesus' miracles in the Bible leave behind any evidence? Because God is imaginary, and Jesus' miracles are myths.

because if you have read the bible you would know that jesus wants you to belive in him by FAITH not by evideince

8) How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you? Because God is imaginary.

because if you have even red the bible, you would know that jesus will not come back to earth till the end of revelation, and he will descend from heaven

9) Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood? Because God is imaginary, and this bizarre ritual came from a pagan religion.

its a symbolization, the bread symbolizes his body and the wine symbolizes his blood, obviously from reading this i know that you know next to nothing about the bible

10) Why do Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians? Because God is imaginary.

because, people cant always get along, and sometimes they get cheated on, besides, god never said divorce was wrong

Where does it say that god will cure all man's ills?

Where does it say god is REAL? is there any ACTUAL evidence to prove this, he DID NOT create the Earth 6000 years ago, because there are things that are proven to be BILLIONS of years old. Do you still believe in the imaginary?

Where does it say that god will cure all man's ills?

Once again, people have free will, god never stated that he would solve all man's problems for us.

Because the Bible was written by ruthless men rather than any sort of loving being.

Primitive men wrote the bible, not an all-knowing being.

Primitive men wrote the bible, not an all-knowing being.

Once again, god never said that he would coddle us.

What miracles are you expecting to leave behind evidence after 2000 years?

How do you know that he hasn't? You don't.

It is a symbolic act representing your acceptance of him as your savior.

Because people are not infallible.

I do believe that was an end of post.

/thread

Oh, wow, what brilliantly original questions! I bet none of the Christians on here have EVER wondered "why do bad things happen to good people?" before. Now all those poor delusional fools will totally change their views on the world, based on the brilliantly original analysis in the OP!




...or not. Honestly, as someone with no great love for organized religion, I still find this OP absurdly patronizing to people of faith (and massively logically flawed to boot - "God can't exist because Christians aren't better than everyone else!" = LOL WUT?).

Where does it say god is REAL? is there any ACTUAL evidence to prove this, he DID NOT create the Earth 6000 years ago, because there are things that are proven to be BILLIONS of years old. Do you still believe in the imaginary?

Do you have to have someone or something else tell you what is or isn't real? Can you not make up your mind for yourself?

Simply because you are incapable of conceiving of something, does not make it imaginary.

Where does it say god is REAL? is there any ACTUAL evidence to prove this, he DID NOT create the Earth 6000 years ago, because there are things that are proven to be BILLIONS of years old. Do you still believe in the imaginary?

I'm agnostic, but devil's advocate, not all Christians are young earth creationists, and even if they were, if God wants to artificially age certain things, as an all powerful being, he can walk in paradox unharmed as much as he wants. That's what comes from being super-duper.

Look, if a guy can get over the idea of somebody being raised from the dead, a talking bush, whatever, do you think they can't reconcile carbon dating?

The idea is, God gets to break the rules however He wants, why would you back your chips behind a God that couldn't pull that shit?

Personally, I believe Christopher Walken is the Almighty.

Where does it say god is REAL? is there any ACTUAL evidence to prove this,
Is there any evidence to prove that he isn't?
he DID NOT create the Earth 6000 years ago, because there are things that are proven to be BILLIONS of years old.
Does the bible say that the earth is 6000 years old? I do not believe so.
At least 200 dates have been suggested, varying from 3483 to 6934 years B.C., all based on the supposition that the Bible enables us to settle the point. But it does nothing of the sort. ... The literal interpretation has now been entirely abandoned; and the world is admitted to be of immense antiquity. ... On such questions we have no Biblical evidence, and the Catholic is quite free to follow the teaching of science
Do you still believe in the imaginary?
:rolleyes:

Oh, wow, what brilliantly original questions! I bet none of the Christians on here have EVER wondered "why do bad things happen to good people?" before. Now all those poor delusional fools will totally change their views on the world, based on the brilliantly original analysis in the OP!




...or not. Honestly, as someone with no great love for organized religion, I still find this OP absurdly patronizing to people of faith (and massively logically flawed to boot - "God can't exist because Christians aren't better than everyone else!" = LOL WUT?).

Yeah...have to wonder if the OP isn't a preacher looking to discredit the non-believer group (headed officially by the Space Pope of Atheism).

Does the bible say that the earth is 6000 years old? I do not believe so.
:

It does, D. Seriously.

Right next to the part where it says guys with ear rings all chug cock.

Do you have to have someone or something else tell you what is or isn't real? Can you not make up your mind for yourself?

Simply because you are incapable of conceiving of something, does not make it imaginary.

Have you ever actually seen him? like, physically, not in dreams or in your head. Because if its in your head, it's in your imagination, hence it is imaginary.

Because if its in your head, it's in your imagination, hence it is imaginary.

Prove it.

Yeah...have to wonder if the OP isn't a preacher looking to discredit the non-believer group (headed officially by the Space Pope of Atheism).

I rather hope so, since that would make him bright enough to realize how silly his argument is. Sadly, I suspect he is simply the atheistic equivalent of the people who appear in every evolution thread to say, "Oh yeah? Well, riddle me THIS, evolutionists: if humans came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?!"

It does, D. Seriously.

Right next to the part where it says guys with ear rings all chug cock.

Hehe. This thread is silly.

Have you ever actually seen him? like, physically, not in dreams or in your head. Because if its in your head, it's in your imagination, hence it is imaginary.

Um, really? Have you ever seen gravity? Love?

Right next to the part where it says guys with ear rings all chug cock.

Uh oh.

My ears are pierced! :(

I wish the OP wasn't so masterfully crafted as to beyond refutation in any logical manner at all, especially since I, as a Christian have not applied any attempt at rational thought to assist my faith, as the OP was able to correctly surmise.

Ok, so I actually have applied some critical analysis to my beliefs, and I have heard far better criticisms come from far more humble sources.

Um, really? Have you ever seen gravity? Love?

Nope, ergo they obviously don't exist. Duh!

*floats away into space*

Um, really? Have you ever seen gravity? Love?

I have... it's all green and purple. And then the lines blur. And then when I wave my hand it kinda smears all the colors together.

Is the room spinning again?

Nope, ergo they obviously don't exist. Duh!

*floats away into space*

Yay! ;)

Have you ever actually seen him? like, physically, not in dreams or in your head. Because if its in your head, it's in your imagination, hence it is imaginary.

The population of the Earth is around 6 billion. Most of these people I have never seen, but they still exist.

Nope, ergo they obviously don't exist. Duh!

*floats away into space*

That's why you felt so light when you were making nonexistent to me last night.

I'm agnostic, but devil's advocate, not all Christians are young earth creationists, and even if they were, if God wants to artificially age certain things, as an all powerful being, he can walk in paradox unharmed as much as he wants. That's what comes from being super-duper.

Look, if a guy can get over the idea of somebody being raised from the dead, a talking bush, whatever, do you think they can't reconcile carbon dating?

The idea is, God gets to break the rules however He wants, why would you back your chips behind a God that couldn't pull that shit?

Personally, I believe Christopher Walken is the Almighty.

I love this post, it pretty much rocks. I used subscribe to Young Earth Creationism, and would argue with a friend of mine (who applied more practical thought on the matter) that when the Bible said "God placed the stars in the sky" He placed them already shining over the Earth, after all, why not? I mean, he's God, what can't He do?! Lol.

Have you ever actually seen him? like, physically, not in dreams or in your head. Because if its in your head, it's in your imagination, hence it is imaginary.

You do realize it is completely useless to get on internet forums and try and convince strangers that God does not exist?


Totally off topic question here to Hatesmanville. Do you believe in Aliens? What I mean is intelligent life outside of the planet Earth? If so do you think they have visited our corner of the Galaxy?

Um, really? Have you ever seen gravity? Love?

1) When i threw color die in the air ;)

2) I though jesus loved everyone... so since "love" doesnt exist then neither does jesus.

Dude, did you win the trial because I forgot to show up, or vice versa?

This thread will last forever, because after all, such an original array of questions will keep the real thinkers in a tizzy.

Actually, I really don't think Neo Art ever got motivated enough to hold the trial. We can still do it sometime later, but I would suggest using the fifty dollars to stay ahead of bills or something.

And yes, eternal thread coming.

You do realize it is completely useless to get on internet forums and try and convince strangers that God does not exist?


Totally off topic question here to Hatesmanville. Do you believe in Aliens? What I mean is intelligent life outside of the planet Earth? If so do you think they have visited our corner of the Galaxy?
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/threadjack.gif

You do realize it is completely useless to get on internet forums and try and convince strangers that God does not exist?


Totally off topic question here to Hatesmanville. Do you believe in Aliens? What I mean is intelligent life outside of the planet Earth? If so do you think they have visited our corner of the Galaxy?

Well, it's particularly useless when your argument is based on obvious fallacies and can be seen through with a moment's thought.

The population of the Earth is around 6 billion. Most of these people I have never seen, but they still exist.

Just your imagination. Seriously we are all your imagination. You are all alone.

You do realize it is completely useless to get on internet forums and try and convince strangers that God does not exist?


Totally off topic question here to Hatesmanville. Do you believe in Aliens? What I mean is intelligent life outside of the planet Earth? If so do you think they have visited our corner of the Galaxy?

I only beleive in what I see, and please, its MY corner of the galaxy, not ours :P

Where does it say god is REAL? is there any ACTUAL evidence to prove this, he DID NOT create the Earth 6000 years ago, because there are things that are proven to be BILLIONS of years old. Do you still believe in the imaginary?

Someone already made a rebuttal to this but I'm going to restate it, the Bible don't say anything about no 6000 years. I'm a Theistic Evolutionist myself and believe that the whole thing was done pretty much how Science says.

And by pretty much, I mean almost exactly.

I think it's pretty obvious what's happened here. Back on a forum for a Bible class I once took, there was a guy who was arguing that Jesus wasn't God and that there was no Trinity. Turns out that he didn't really have a clue what he was talking about. Every argument he made was pretty much ripped right out of the websites he cited. Every talking point. Even his "critical thinking" wasn't really his, just ripped right off some page.

Any of this sound familiar to you? You seem to have paraphrased it, so I'll give you credit for that. That was more than that other guy ever did.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm all for respectful debate, even if I don't really feel like trying to prove anything on my end. You all know what I think and believe and you know who to talk to if you're interested in it. Getting on a soapbox and throwing it into your faces isn't my style because it doesn't do anything, and I like to speak through actions.

That said, when you barge in here and equate faith with delusion and stupidity and insanity, I'm not exactly sure what you expected to get. But anyone who tells me that, not only am I delusional in believing in my faith but (and here's the kicker) that deep down I know that you're right and I'm not -- with any disagreement being denial -- well he's not starting this conversation off on the right foot to say the least.

Have you ever actually seen him? like, physically, not in dreams or in your head. Because if its in your head, it's in your imagination, hence it is imaginary.

Actually, each of our senses are processed through our 'heads' so actually everything you think, feel, read, understand, hear, taste, or sense in any other way is all in your head. Prove that I am more than a hallucination, that everything you know, and think is a massive hallucination. Prove to me that you aren't in a coma somewhere and everything you sense isn't merely imagined.

Oh wait, now that I think about it, all of the information I have about you has come through my head, mayhaps you are only a figment of my imagination, now if only I could dispatch you so easily with the light of reason as I can with other whimsical imaginings.

For the sake of continuing any real debate you may have, I will presuppose your existence.

I only beleive in what I see, and please, its MY corner of the galaxy, not ours :P

Then you're woefully ignorant since nearly everything you learn is based on things people tell you that you've never seen. You must have no knowledge of history, science, philosophy, language, etc.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/Sarothai/Smileys/threadjack.gif

Shush, you.

1) When i threw color die in the air ;)

You saw what you assumed to be the effect of gravity, you did not see gravity.

2) I though jesus loved everyone... so since "love" doesnt exist then neither does jesus.

Have you ever seen love? or anger? or any other emotion?

That's why you felt so light when you were making nonexistent to me last night.

Pssh. It was too dark to see anything last night; therefore none of that happened. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

1) When i threw color die in the air ;)

2) I though jesus loved everyone... so since "love" doesnt exist then neither does jesus.

1) No, you didn't. You saw something fall, not the force that caused it. You assumed it was there, but then that's only because you assumed a force was necessary based on another theory by someone you've never seen or reviewed.

Shush, you.

:(

Then you're woefully ignorant since nearly everything you learn is based on things people tell you that you've never seen. You must have no knowledge of history, science, philosophy, language, etc.

Who said I'm not a rich bitch who travels everywhere:P

But in seriousness, they have evidence of their facts, not just off the top of my heads. But, if there is something I dont beleive is right, then i usually just let it go, or check it out. I also dont beleive that much I "learned" in history lessons, I never listened anyway.

Pssh. It was too dark to see anything last night; therefore none of that happened. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Then of course you didn't see that flash of the camera. ;)


$100 says the pictures were imaginary.

I'm not even Christian and I can answer every single question with 5 simple words...

God works in mysterious ways.

The 2nd part to that verse was lost but recently discovered, it went...

Deal with it bee-yatch.

Pssh. It was too dark to see anything last night; therefore none of that happened. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

You tell the best stories.

Then you're woefully ignorant since nearly everything you learn is based on things people tell you that you've never seen. You must have no knowledge of history, science, philosophy, language, etc.

Somethings don't need qualifications.

I never listened anyway.

So many comments, so many seconds before reposting allowed. :(

This part of the sentence was unnecessary though, I'm sure many of us already came to this conclusion.

Have you ever seen love? or anger? or any other emotion?

If you really think about it that way, the only thing I've seen proof of is idiocy. :p

1) Why won't God heal amputees?

Being amputated is all part of God's plan. It's just bad luck if your plan does not involve arms. Everything is part of God's plan, except for the choice between good and evil. Unfortunately God was enough of a jerk to dump that responsibility on mankind. It's a punishment for the fact that the first people ate fruit that God specifically put there just to annoy them.

2) Why are there so many starving people in our world?

Those worthless starving people aren't praying hard enough.

3) Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people in the Bible?

Jews wrote that part, and Jews worship Moses.

4) Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense?

Why does science contain so much anti-religious nonsense? Lame question.

5) Why is God such a huge proponent of slavery?

God is all about ruthless treatment of lesser beings, just look at the way he treats his creations.

6) Why do bad things happen to good people?

They don't. Those good people are either demons in disguise, or the bad things that happen to them are really mixed blessings that will actually turn out positive in the long run as part of God's plan.

7) Why didn't any of Jesus' miracles in the Bible leave behind any evidence?

There has been a lot of documented evidence of Jesus in toast and old blankets.

8) How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you?

What? This happens all the time.

9) Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood?

Everyone knows that if you eat somebody you gain all their powers.

10) Why do Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians?

Because they are Godless heathens.

1) No, you didn't. You saw something fall, not the force that caused it. You assumed it was there, but then that's only because you assumed a force was necessary based on another theory by someone you've never seen or reviewed.

head, its screwing up

Who said I'm not a rich bitch who travels everywhere:P


That would be me.



I also dont beleive that much I "learned" in history lessons, I never listened anyway



O'rly

$100 says the pictures were imaginary.

Well, obviously, since I haven't seen them.

Who said I'm not a rich bitch who travels everywhere:P

But in seriousness, they have evidence of their facts, not just off the top of my heads. But, if there is something I dont beleive is right, then i usually just let it go, or check it out. I also dont beleive that much I "learned" in history lessons, I never listened anyway.

Oh, look, admitting to being willfully ignorant. Science recognizes that the need for emperical evidence is a limitation. It's quite clear that evidence doesn't make things exist, but the other way around. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. It's a common fallacy and you're thoroughly in the middle of it.

When are people realize going against the collective wisdom and whit of NSG is a lose/lose proposition?

Have you ever actually seen him? like, physically, not in dreams or in your head. Because if its in your head, it's in your imagination, hence it is imaginary.

I haven't seen a Higgs boson myself either. Must be impossible.

Man, I'm an atheist, and even I'm aghast at your "reasoning".

Third question: Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people in the Bible? Look up these verses:

- Exodus 35:2 – God demands that we kill everyone who works on the Sabbath day.

- Deuteronomy 21:18-21 – God demands that we kill disobedient teenagers.

- Leviticus 20:13 – God demands the death of homosexuals.

- Deuteronomy 22:13-21 – God demands that we kill girls who are not virgins when they marry.

And so on… There are lots of verses like these.

It doesn't make any sense, does it? Why would a loving God want us to murder our fellow human beings over such trivial matters? Just because you work on the wrong day of the week, you must die? That makes no sense, does it? In fact, if you think about it, you realize that it is insane. So you create some kind of rationalization to explain these verses.

I would like to submit a very genuine answer to this question that is as yet ungiven.

I submit that according to the Bible, these people where apparently not innocent, and the matters for their execution are not necessarily trivial, as you claimed. You qualified these offenses as not actually offensive, yet they clearly were to someone, and as trivial, yet they were clearly not to someone, so your question really is moot, because you are not describing why God Himself finds these crimes trivial, or non-criminal. Why would criminalizing these things be insane? Because you feel that way, well surely you would know better than someone who has the authority to edit an objective moral scale.

I would answer the others, but they were all very adequeatly answered a couple times over.

I predict thread lock.

Yup, that's kinda going to happen, it's happened before, although some threads last as long as a full week.

Oh, look, admitting to being willfully ignorant. Science recognizes that the need for emperical evidence is a limitation. It's quite clear that evidence doesn't make things exist, but the other way around. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. It's a common fallacy and you're thoroughly in the middle of it.

Ok, I am ignorant, but it doesnt mean im wrong.

I predict thread lock.

I hope not. I know an all flame-war is the most likely result, but I would really enjoy a frank theological and ethical discussion.

This won't end well.But it sure as fuck kicks off in tha jimmy, boy howdy.

Oh, and god doesn't mind having every bit of dignity, grace and usable flesh stripped from you unceremoniously, so long as there's still love and obedience for HIM in whatever's left.

I hope not. I know an all flame-war is the most likely result, but I would really enjoy a frank theological and ethical discussion.
*shares a tear with Rotovia*

Ok, I am ignorant, but it doesnt mean im wrong.

I spy with my little eye, something beginning with 'S'

Siggable!

Ok, I am ignorant, but it doesnt mean im wrong.

But it is damn good evidence.

I haven't seen a Higgs boson myself either. Must be impossible.

Man, I'm an atheist, and even I'm aghast at your "reasoning".

Oh, the Higgs boson- you mean the one that they havn't actually found yet and are far from 100% sure actually exists? Bad example methinks...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson if anyone's curious about what we're talking about

Ok, I am ignorant, but it doesnt mean im wrong.

Well, you predicated your opening argument on appealling to the "education" of your intended audience, while obviously considering your own ignorance not at issue.

I call bullshit. You're yanking everybody's chain.

That level of hypocrisy has to be deliberate and satirical.

Dungeonmaster, I disbelieve and roll saving throw against illusions!

1) When i threw color die in the air ;)

2) I though jesus loved everyone... so since "love" doesnt exist then neither does jesus.

Just my 2 cents here...
"Love" doesn't exist huh? SO then that means everyone in the world who loves doesn't exist, simply because love doesn't exist. That's the logic vibe i'm picking up here. I believe this (Hatesmanville's quote) is what we call a FLAWED ARGUMENT FROM AN INTERNET JACK#@!.

I spy with my little eye, something beginning with 'S'

Siggable!

:D

It is a pretty good one!

Ok, I am ignorant, but it doesnt mean im wrong.

You're right.

Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. It's a common fallacy and you're thoroughly in the middle of it.

That means you are wrong.

When are people realize going against the collective wisdom and whit of NSG is a lose/lose proposition?

Are you TRYING to murder the thread here? :eek:

Ok, I am ignorant, but it doesnt mean im wrong.

No, it does not mean you're wrong, however, you appealed to the natural ignorance of every Christian in you're OP.

Now you must seperate you're own, well-stated, and displayed ignorance, from the ignorance you only claimed to exist in others, and somehow show how yours is preferable.

Good luck, I really don't envy your task.

Oh, the Higgs boson- you mean the one that they havn't actually found yet and are far from 100% sure actually exists? Bad example methinks...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson if anyone's curious about what we're talking about

My point was, its not impossible.

In fact, I deliberately chose something as yet unsettled to illustrate the premise that the unseen is not therefore disproven, a priori.

The whole idea was to present an example not 100% sure, because it isn't 100% precluded, either, by virtue of being undiscovered.

I would answer the others, but they were all very adequeatly answered a couple times over.


That is a stupid excuse, its probably because you cant face the facts.

Dungeonmaster, I disbelieve and roll saving throw against illusions!

Sigged, for hilarious, applicable, and generally awesome D&D quote!

That is a stupid excuse, its probably because you cant face the facts.

Again, I call shenanigans!

Even a halfway able troll can shoot from the hip better than that.

You're lampooning. Its a noble calling, fess up.

Well, you predicated your opening argument on appealling to the "education" of your intended audience, while obviously considering your own ignorance not at issue.

I call bullshit. You're yanking everybody's chain.

That level of hypocrisy has to be deliberate and satirical.

Dungeonmaster, I disbelieve and roll saving throw against illusions!

Oh, the irony. (I agree, though. S/he's taking a piss, obviously. And if anyone should recognize it...)

That is a stupid excuse, its probably because you cant face the facts.

I can't believe this post came in at #78 when there already has been answers to all 10 of your questions back on page 1 I believe.

And I think a more accurate phrase would be "because you can't face my opinions"

That is a stupid excuse, its probably because you cant face the facts.

I don't want to repeat others... it's due mostly to laziness, if no one else were willing to step up and challenge such ridiculous questions, then I would, I am not put in that position, as all of your questions have been reasonably defeated.

It is neither a matter of fact, nor excuse... please, stop continuing so steadfastly down the path of ignorance.

My point was, its not impossible.

In fact, I deliberately chose something as yet unsettled to illustrate the premise that the unseen is not therefore disproven, a priori.

The whole idea was to present an example not 100% sure, because it isn't 100% precluded, either, by virtue of being undiscovered.It's not funny if you have to EXPLAIN the ... oh never mind. Back in your closet.
*stabs brain with Q-tip*

Oh, the irony. (I agree, though. S/he's taking a piss, obviously. And if anyone should recognize it...)

Yeah, question is, how long can H keep the shite flying before everybody can obviously tell?

And more artfully, just how close to the line of making it obvious can he/she tread without tipping their hand to all?

That is a stupid excuse, its probably because you cant face the facts.

Or maybe its because you've failed to respond to a lot of the posts that actually address your hypothesis...

It's not funny if you have to EXPLAIN the ... oh never mind. Back in your closet.
*stabs brain with Q-tip*

Ow, fuc-OWWW! Dude, fuck's sake, some of that is your own neural mass, you know.

And a big enough job, you'll have an edema that'll have us both playing checkers in the day room with the Haldol squad! Ease up, that red stuff isn't salsa.

Yeah, question is, how long can H keep the shite flying before everybody can obviously tell?

And more artfully, just how close to the line of making it obvious can he/she tread without tipping their hand to all?

Probably pretty darn close, considering some of your successes. ;)

Again, I call shenanigans!

Even a halfway able troll can shoot from the hip better than that.

You're lampooning. Its a noble calling, fess up.


umm... are you EVER serious?:upyours:

Pssh. It was too dark to see anything last night; therefore none of that happened. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Ugh. You really should wash after such...activites. Then you won't stick to anything.

Who said I'm not a rich bitch who travels everywhere:P

But in seriousness, they have evidence of their facts, not just off the top of my heads. But, if there is something I dont beleive is right, then i usually just let it go, or check it out. I also dont beleive that much I "learned" in history lessons, I never listened anyway.

No wonder he doesn't believe in anything -- he can't spell the word.

Oh, look, admitting to being willfully ignorant. Science recognizes that the need for emperical evidence is a limitation. It's quite clear that evidence doesn't make things exist, but the other way around. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack. It's a common fallacy and you're thoroughly in the middle of it.

Unless you're Donald Rumsfeld and the subject is WMD.

Probably pretty darn close, considering some of your successes. ;)

Well, in H's praise, he/she unloaded with quite the diaper load in the OP, not sure if I've ever matched that level of laughable crap and had people think I really believed it.

This guy is a shotgun artist, I'm more of a sniper.

Ugh. You really should wash after such...activites. Then you won't stick to anything.


Hey, I'm already failing to stick to the ground, given the nonexistence of gravity. I have to find ways of sticking to something!

umm... are you EVER serious?:upyours:

Okay, okay, break it up, move along, nothing to see here. *draws chalk outline around H-ville's pwnd corpse*

Seriously, junior, you've dug up some nifty sci-atheist propaganda from another site and posted it here. 10 out of 10 for copy and paste skills, but minus several million for actual thought process, as you've not been able to post anything after the OP that has even the hint of the same writing style.

You're done, son.

Well, in H's praise, he/she unloaded with quite the diaper load in the OP, not sure if I've ever matched that level of laughable crap and had people think I really believed it.

This guy is a shotgun artist, I'm more of a sniper.

dont neglect DARTS!!!

That is a stupid excuse, its probably because you cant face the facts.

That's hardly sporting. We have no way of knowing whether he can face them or not until you provide them.

umm... are you EVER serious?:upyours:

I think he was serious.

But thats just the conclusion I arrived at after thinking critically about other comments he has made, and judging where his wording suggested unseriousness.

Wait... a person with religious beliefs thinking?! Whats next? The 6,000 yr old world will be discovered as round, and rotates around the Sun?! Whoa!

This guy is a shotgun artist, I'm more of a sniper.
I lick shots at the brutal charade
As the polls close like a casket
On truth devoured
A Silent play in the shadow of power
A spectacle monopolized
The camera's eyes on choice disguised
Was it cast for the mass who burn and toil?
Or for the vultures who thirst for blood and oil?
Yes a spectacle monopolized
They hold the reins and stole your eyes
Or the fistagons
The bullets and bombs
Who stuff the banks
Who staff the party ranks
More for gore or the son of a drug lord
None of the above fuck it cut the cordMmmhmmm.

Hey, I'm already failing to stick to the ground, given the nonexistence of gravity. I have to find ways of sticking to something!

Very well. But still: ew.








Is it me, or does it suddenly smell like Bisquick batter in here?

Okay, okay, break it up, move along, nothing to see here. *draws chalk outline around H-ville's pwnd corpse*

Seriously, junior, you've dug up some nifty sci-atheist propaganda from another site and posted it here. 10 out of 10 for copy and paste skills, but minus several million for actual thought process, as you've not been able to post anything after the OP that has even the hint of the same writing style.

You're done, son.

Ok, I fess up... it was on my mates friends myspace, but still, I totally agree with it all

Hey, I'm already failing to stick to the ground, given the nonexistence of gravity. I have to find ways of sticking to something!

You're welcome.

Mmmhmmm.

Less a shotgun or sniper, rather a flying mallet.

Ok, I fess up... it was on my mates friends myspace, but still, I totally agree with it all

You might want to try thinking then.

umm... are you EVER serious?:upyours:

Sure, on rare occasion, but the event is marked in its passing by cogent, lucid observation. You aren't giving us the same salience by which to guide the ship of skepticism.

Its time, Hatesmanville, you've been called on it, take your bow and admit you've been purposely espousing a position so horridly undeveloped that any partially literate poster could bring better.

Ok, I fess up... it was on my mates friends myspace, but still, I totally agree with it all

Of course. But you're unable to adequately defend it. Atheists of NSG, does that seem ironic to you? I mean, isn't usually the other side that has this problem?

Less a shotgun or sniper, rather a flying mallet.

Reminds me of that dude juggling the chainsaw, flaming baton/pin, and apple, while still managing to chomp bites out of the apple mid-juggle.

Ok, I fess up... it was on my mates friends myspace, but still, I totally agree with it all

How convenient. No thinking, no reasoning, just buying something wholesale you saw on a MySpace profile. Holy balls, do I wish I were where you are so that I could sell you something you clearly don't need at a ridiculous price.

You do realize that by admitting you agree with all of that tripe without being able to reason your way out of a wet paper bag, that you're no better than those of faith who are similarly absolute and never question anything either, right?

Of course. But you're unable to adequately defend it. Atheists of NSG, does that seem ironic to you? I mean, isn't usually the other side that has this problem?

NSG may stand for:

Natation Sportive Geneve
National Security Guards
National Seminars Group
National Service Group, Inc
National Street Gazetteer (UK)
Navigators Studentenvereniging Groningen
Netherlands Research School of Sedimentary Geology
Network Services Group
Network Support Group
Network Systems Group
Netzwerk-Service GmbH
New Socialist Group (Canada)
Niels Steensens Gymnasium
Nippon Sheet Glass
North Sea Gas
Northwest Source Group
North Sydney Girls High School
Nuclear Suppliers Group
Nursing Specialist Group
NSG Boards
Northampton School For Girls

what is it?

Mmmhmmm.

I didn't write that bit of verse. You can tell because its kind of good.

Where's it from?

You're welcome.

I told you - I didn't see anything, and therefore you weren't there. My logic is impeccable.

Of course. But you're unable to adequately defend it. Atheists of NSG, does that seem ironic to you? I mean, isn't usually the other side that has this problem?

I think a rather telling item is the fact that I was the first to address and debunk his position on a point by point basis.

NSG may stand for:

Natation Sportive Geneve
National Security Guards
National Seminars Group
National Service Group, Inc
National Street Gazetteer (UK)
Navigators Studentenvereniging Groningen
Netherlands Research School of Sedimentary Geology
Network Services Group
Network Support Group
Network Systems Group
Netzwerk-Service GmbH
New Socialist Group (Canada)
Niels Steensens Gymnasium
Nippon Sheet Glass
North Sea Gas
Northwest Source Group
North Sydney Girls High School
Nuclear Suppliers Group
Nursing Specialist Group
NSG Boards
Northampton School For Girls

what is it?

When posted on these boards NSG stands for NationStates General

NSG may stand for:

snip

what is it?

None, actually, it stands for "Nationstates General", you know, the forum you're in....

Of course. But you're unable to adequately defend it. Atheists of NSG, does that seem ironic to you? I mean, isn't usually the other side that has this problem?

That irony can be pretty ironic sometimes.

Reminds me of that dude juggling the chainsaw, flaming baton/pin, and apple, while still managing to chomp bites out of the apple mid-juggle.

"I am going to juggle a bowling ball. But is it a REAL bowling ball? Is it affected by gravity? *drops it with a tremendous sixteen-pound thud* Or does the Earth suck?"

I know that guy.

Ok, I fess up... it was on my mates friends myspace, but still, I totally agree with it all

Oh, you do not, quit supping the dregs, you've been called.

I like cheese.

When posted on these boards NSG stands for NationStates General

You beat me to it you jerk!

Hmm, I'll just claim timewarp stole my right to be posted first... he he he

Timewarp position stealer!

:D

NSG may stand for:

Natation Sportive Geneve
National Security Guards
National Seminars Group
National Service Group, Inc
National Street Gazetteer (UK)
Navigators Studentenvereniging Groningen
Netherlands Research School of Sedimentary Geology
Network Services Group
Network Support Group
Network Systems Group
Netzwerk-Service GmbH
New Socialist Group (Canada)
Niels Steensens Gymnasium
Nippon Sheet Glass
North Sea Gas
Northwest Source Group
North Sydney Girls High School
Nuclear Suppliers Group
Nursing Specialist Group
NSG Boards
Northampton School For Girls

what is it?

National Sex Gestapo. But I've said too much already. :p

Interrupting the warpath with humor just feels so... weird.

You beat me to it you jerk!

Hmm, I'll just claim timewarp stole my right to be posted first... he he he

Timewarp position stealer!

:D

Except the fact that Jolt has fixed the timewarp issue (at least for now).

I didn't write that bit of verse. You can tell because its kind of good.

Where's it from?
You're not in charge of my subconscious archives now?
I have to consciously address this now ... :confused:
Zack de LaRocha.
and/or Richard Cheese.

"I am going to juggle a bowling ball. But is it a REAL bowling ball? Is it affected by gravity? *drops it with a tremendous sixteen-pound thud* Or does the Earth suck?"

I know that guy.That guy ROCKS.
How much does he charge, btw? Or is that a labour of love thing?

Except the fact that Jolt has fixed the timewarp issue (at least for now).

Huh, well now that my ignorance has been shown, I guess theres nothing left but to admit that my entire position was unbased, and suggest personally, that I am ignorant.

Comically, I really was, I didn't know Jolt fixed that, I assumed they would've tried if anything long ago... whatever. Thanks for the heads up, now I will be more cautious of using that excuse in the future.

National Sex Gestapo.
/thread
*invokes Ifreann*

National Sex Gestapo. But I've said too much already. :p

Interrupting the warpath with humor just feels so... weird.

I must know more... yet the thought terrifies me....

You're not in charge of my subconscious archives now?
I have to consciously address this now ... :confused:
Zack de LaRocha.
and/or Richard Cheese.

I am so going to start imagining dirty limiricks to throw you off when you have to deliver my eulogy.

Huh, well now that my ignorance has been shown, I guess theres nothing left but to admit that my entire position was unbased, and suggest personally, that I am ignorant.

Comically, I really was, I didn't know Jolt fixed that, I assumed they would've tried if anything long ago... whatever. Thanks for the heads up, now I will be more cautious of using that excuse in the future.

note the "for now"

note the "for now"

Oh, I did.

Which is why I said I would be more cautious, rather than cease altogether.

I am so going to start imagining dirty limiricks to throw you off when you have to deliver my eulogy.
Last i checked, almost ALL of your eulogy was substantiated by dirty limericks ... and evocative gestures in concert with them.

And if we don't reject God Mr.Atheist, what'll happen to us? According to you and Karl Marx and Nieztche, nothing, so why does it matter? On the contrary, it's you who should worry.

That guy ROCKS.
How much does he charge, btw? Or is that a labour of love thing?

I haven't seen him for at least 15 years. He had a Showtime special back in the late 80s/early 90s.

Last i checked, almost ALL of your eulogy was substantiated by dirty limericks ... and evocative gestures in concert with them.

Make the funeral a black-tie event... kind of a classy/unclassy mix.

That, and ew.

And if we don't reject God Mr.Atheist, what'll happen to us? According to you and Karl Marx and Nieztche, nothing, so why does it matter? On the contrary, it's you who should worry.

Oh, here comes the perfect storm of unrefined rhetoric....will Hatesmanville respond and kill the fisherman?

Last i checked, almost ALL of your eulogy was substantiated by dirty limericks ... and evocative gestures in concert with them.

You will mourn my passing, Straughn. Moreso than my creditors, even.

/thread
*invokes Ifreann*

Oh. My. I--I didn't even prepare a speech or anything.

And if we don't reject God Mr.Atheist, what'll happen to us? According to you and Karl Marx and Nieztche, nothing, so why does it matter? On the contrary, it's you who should worry.

Why?

ATTENTION THREAD!

I'd just like to state for the record that when some crackpot copy-n-paste wannabe Richard Dawkins posted his fake atheistic horseshit in NSG, BOTH atheists and believers shot his ass down in no time flat.

So the next time anyone comes in here asking why "we all hate religion" on NSG, I'd like to point out that from my perspective, we don't hate religion. We hate bullshit, no matter how it is clothed.

Seriously, I almost think this thread should be stickied for just such a situation.

You will mourn my passing, Straughn. Moreso than my creditors, even.

But he will miss you less than your debtors.

:D

EDIT: Speaking of which, can you loan me five bucks? :p

ATTENTION THREAD!

I'd just like to state for the record that when some crackpot copy-n-paste wannabe Richard Dawkins posted his fake atheistic horseshit in NSG, BOTH atheists and believers shot his ass down in no time flat.
:D
So the next time anyone comes in here asking why "we all hate religion" on NSG, I'd like to point out that from my perspective, we don't hate religion. We hate bullshit, no matter how it is clothed.
Which is why I made the comment about the fact that I was the firsdt to debunk his position.
Seriously, I almost think this thread should be stickied for just such a situation.
QFT

ATTENTION THREAD!

I'd just like to state for the record that when some crackpot copy-n-paste wannabe Richard Dawkins posted his fake atheistic horseshit in NSG, BOTH atheists and believers shot his ass down in no time flat.

So the next time anyone comes in here asking why "we all hate religion" on NSG, I'd like to point out that from my perspective, we don't hate religion. We hate bullshit, no matter how it is clothed.

Seriously, I almost think this thread should be stickied for just such a situation.

I dunno, man, I don't think he even agreed with his own copy-n-paste shit, I think he was a'poonin'.

You will mourn my passing, Straughn. Moreso than my creditors, even.

You'll always miss my big old body
In its prime and never shoddy,
While bloodhounds wait down in the lobby you'll eulogize my big old body

You'll miss me with effigies
Lighting up your house like Xmas trees
As tears roll down below your knees
You'll miss me with effigies

Go find a man to fit my shoes
Left one's old and the right one's new
And I bought the right one just for you
Go find a man to fit my shoes

You'll see my teeth in the stars above
Every tree a finger of my glove
And every time push comes to shove
You'll see my teeth in the stars above

Your money talks but my genius walks
Morticians wait with a shovel and a fork
As detectives trace my hands with chalk
Your money talks but my genius walks

You'll miss me so
You will miss me
It must be raining because a man ain't supposed to cry
But I look up and I don't see a cloud

--They Might Be Giants

I dunno, man, I don't think he even agreed with his own copy-n-paste shit, I think he was a'poonin'.

Agreed, but still, the principle is intact.

Agreed, but still, the principle is intact.

Fair 'nough.

Krayst, though, can you imagine if he had really bought it, and that was the best he could do?

And if we don't reject God Mr.Atheist, what'll happen to us? According to you and Karl Marx and Nieztche, nothing, so why does it matter? On the contrary, it's you who should worry.

In that case, God, being my creator, made me to be a doubter. Some how, if he is as loving and just as you think him to be, he'll understand

In that case, God, being my creator, made me to be a doubter. Some how, if he is as loving and just as you think him to be, he'll understand

God didn't create you to be a doubter.

That's the result of a remote update subroutine installed by Microsoft.

Atheist pig.

Fair 'nough.

Krayst, though, can you imagine if he had really bought it, and that was the best he could do?

I teach adolescents and just post-adolescents. I don't have to imagine the distinct taint of knowledge without reason, I see it often enough.

God didn't create you to be a doubter.

That's the result of a remote update subroutine installed by Microsoft.

Atheist pig.

Then I'm hardly at fault, am I?

Fair 'nough.

Krayst, though, can you imagine if he had really bought it, and that was the best he could do?

Sadly, I can and did imagine that for the first page or so. I have learned never to underestimate the depths of human stupidity.

I teach adolescents and just post-adolescents. I don't have to imagine the distinct taint of knowledge without reason, I see it often enough.

These people will be responsible for taking care of us one day....

What's the guy in Breakfast Club say? Don't bet on it?

Then I'm hardly at fault, am I?

If you really loved God, you'd surrender all autonomy and diligent doubt, and just believe whatever the nearest church tells you, and trust that the nearest church has the right doctrine.

And trust me.

Trust God.

Trust the Trust, from 100 Bullets.

Oi, just remember, the Bible is man-written and man is self-serving scum on whom I believe God has turned his back eons ago. We are not owed anything.

If you really loved God, you'd surrender all autonomy and diligent doubt, and just believe whatever the nearest church tells you, and trust that the nearest church has the right doctrine.

And trust me.

Trust God.

Trust the Trust, from 100 Bullets.

God's love has reached me! I will fork over all of my autonomy immediately. And the check with my life's savings is in the mail as we speak!

Oi, just remember, the Bible is man-written and man is self-serving scum on whom I believe God has turned his back eons ago. We are not owed anything.

I beat Jesus at a game of 8 ball in Jersey in 1974.

We are owed 5 dollars, adjusted up for inflation and back down for taxes.

God's love has reached me! I will fork over all of my autonomy immediately. And the check with my life's savings is in the mail as we speak!

Sorry, I should have clarified.

The nearest CHRISTIAN church. Not Scientology. You can keep half or something.

No matter how you try, you simply can not prove God does not exist. Not with "intelligence", logic or imagination.

You don't believe in God. Fair enough. Some people do. You could leave it at that.

and you cant prove that god does nor can you provide a logical explanation to those questions

Sorry, I should have clarified.

The nearest CHRISTIAN church. Not Scientology. You can keep half or something.

Oh noes! Your lack of clarity has caused me to sell my soul to teh ebil $cientologists and their ebil church of lies! What should I do now!?

If you really loved God, you'd surrender all autonomy and diligent doubt, and just believe whatever the nearest church tells you, and trust that the nearest church has the right doctrine.

And trust me.

Trust God.

Trust the Trust, from 100 Bullets.

? what's that supposed to mean, the last line.

Oh noes! Your lack of clarity has caused me to sell my soul to teh ebil $cientologists and their ebil church of lies! What should I do now!?

Roll with it, I suppose.

Can you sing, or anything?

They have awards ceremonies and things, maybe you could MC.

Where does it say that god will cure all man's ills?

Once again, people have free will, god never stated that he would solve all man's problems for us.

Because the Bible was written by ruthless men rather than any sort of loving being.

Primitive men wrote the bible, not an all-knowing being.

Primitive men wrote the bible, not an all-knowing being.

Once again, god never said that he would coddle us.

What miracles are you expecting to leave behind evidence after 2000 years?

How do you know that he hasn't? You don't.

It is a symbolic act representing your acceptance of him as your savior.

Because people are not infallible.
number tens not an answer and the simplest answer to all those questions is "god doesn't exist". As to jesus. Anyone here wanna claim theyve seen him?

number tens not an answer and the simplest answer to all those questions is "god doesn't exist". As to jesus. Anyone here wanna claim theyve seen him?

A) Prove God doesn't exist.
B) What does seeing him have to do with anything? I've never seen Napolean. Or the Pope for that matter. And I know people who have seen things that weren't there.

I'm agnostic, but devil's advocate, not all Christians are young earth creationists, and even if they were, if God wants to artificially age certain things, as an all powerful being, he can walk in paradox unharmed as much as he wants. That's what comes from being super-duper.

Look, if a guy can get over the idea of somebody being raised from the dead, a talking bush, whatever, do you think they can't reconcile carbon dating?

The idea is, God gets to break the rules however He wants, why would you back your chips behind a God that couldn't pull that shit?

Personally, I believe Christopher Walken is the Almighty.

If god is omnipotent he cant bee omniscient and we have no free will

? what's that supposed to mean, the last line.

Heavy sigh...

Okay, so, long ago, in Europe, 13 powerful thieves with a potent mixture of ambition, ruthlessness, and clever collusion were able to challenge the royalty for what they thought would be a New World...

Those 13 families chose 7 killers...there would always be 7...and charged them not just with preserving their power, but with preserving the Trust that the families put in eachother...

Their leader is a man named Agent Graves, and if you should meet him, he might bring you a case with a gun and 100 bullets...and irrefutable proof against the ones that took everything from you...

The choice is yours. Whatever you do, those 100 bullets protect you...as soon as they are recovered and traced, you will be released, no matter what you've done.

The Trust still exists, ruling America with lies, money, power, and, until recently, with the 7...

If god is omnipotent he cant bee omniscient and we have no free will

Um, no, that's totally false. I often know what someone is going to choose before they choose it. It doesn't stop them from having a choice.

If god is omnipotent he cant bee omniscient and we have no free will

That's the beauty of a God...they can walk in paradox unharmed, be and not be, step in between confliciting predicates as easily as we might walk from our kitchen to our pool room.

I don't happen to believe in any particular one myself, but the very first requirement I would have of a God if I wanted one is that it would have to be impenetrable to something as trifling as a contradiction that would devastate anything limited by things like logic.

A) Prove God doesn't exist.
B) What does seeing him have to do with anything? I've never seen Napolean. Or the Pope for that matter. And I know people who have seen things that weren't there.
A)If you set up the statement correctly it is impossible to disprove the existence of anything. You prove that god does exist.

B) people have seen Napoleon and the pope. some are dead but they recorded it in non biased works of history. Jesus is seen only in the bible. (and the whole birth place/ date thing has been proven by biblical scholars to be wrong. As to people seeing things that weren't there yes yes they do but again there is proof that they didn't or at least a reasonable doubt that they did.

That's the beauty of a God...they can walk in paradox unharmed, be and not be, step in between confliciting predicates as easily as we might walk from our kitchen to our pool room.

I don't happen to believe in any particular one myself, but the very first requirement I would have of a God if I wanted one is that it would have to be impenetrable to something as trifling as a contradiction that would devastate anything limited by things like logic.

lol I like it! you should create your own god :D

Um, no, that's totally false. I often know what someone is going to choose before they choose it. It doesn't stop them from having a choice.

yes but no. You have an educated idea of what they are going to do. being omnipotent means controlling everything!!!! including choice. therefore no free will. Also being omniscient means knowing everything past present and future therefore your decisions are already made therefore no free will

Um, no, that's totally false. I often know what someone is going to choose before they choose it. It doesn't stop them from having a choice.

Difference is, you can be wrong about your prediction without it destroying the definition of who you are or what the universe is. You can be surprised or mistaken.

Some think God can't be wrong, and if that were true, you couldn't choose to surprise Him by suddenly changing your mind, as people could conceivably do to you.

But, then again, if there is a being that powerful, it can presumably change the laws of logic whenever it wants.

A)If you set up the statement correctly it is impossible to disprove the existence of anything. You prove that god does exist.

It's not one or the other. Because I can't prove God exists, doesn't mean he doesn't and vice versa. That's the problem. In order for you to use the lack of existence of God as an argument, you have to provide evidence and you cannot do so. That's the flaw in your logic, though, frankly, I'm certain you don't recognize it.

B) people have seen Napoleon and the pope. some are dead but they recorded it in non biased works of history. Jesus is seen only in the bible. (and the whole birth place/ date thing has been proven by biblical scholars to be wrong. As to people seeing things that weren't there yes yes they do but again there is proof that they didn't or at least a reasonable doubt that they did.

First of all, that's untrue. It's true that the existence of Jesus can't be proven, but your claims are flawed and ignorant. For one thing, Jesus does appear outside the Bible, and even if he didn't, the Bible COULD be a reliable source (though, I'd say it isn't). Leif Ericson only appears in a biased source, but no one would have the balls to claim he didn't exist. Now, one could claim there is reason to doubt his existence, but that's not the claim you made.

See, everyone here has seen this argument before, and they've all seen me or people like me defeat your argument in about three strokes.

I teach adolescents and just post-adolescents. I don't have to imagine the distinct taint of knowledge without reason, I see it often enough.

Ah because you, as a teacher are infallible.

Difference is, you can be wrong about your prediction without it destroying the definition of who you are or what the universe is. You can be surprised or mistaken.

Some think God can't be wrong, and if that were true, you couldn't choose to surprise Him by suddenly changing your mind, as people could conceivably do to you.

That you can't surprise someone isn't a requirement of free will. Only choosing is, and you do choose. That someone already knows what the outcome is, doesn't change that you chose.

But, then again, if there is a being that powerful, it can presumably change the laws of logic whenever it wants.

Or you could apply them properly, though the latter is probably not going to happen. ;-)

Ah because you, as a teacher are infallible.

I don't think he was claiming to be infallible, just that he had on occasion observed a particularly puerile brand of fallibility.

It's not one or the other. Because I can't prove God exists, doesn't mean he doesn't and vice versa. That's the problem. In order for you to use the lack of existence of God as an argument, you have to provide evidence and you cannot do so. That's the flaw in your logic, though, frankly, I'm certain you don't recognize it.



First of all, that's untrue. It's true that the existence of Jesus can't be proven, but your claims are flawed and ignorant. For one thing, Jesus does appear outside the Bible, and even if he didn't, the Bible COULD be a reliable source (though, I'd say it isn't). Leif Ericson only appears in a biased source, but no one would have the balls to claim he didn't exist. Now, one could claim there is reason to doubt his existence, but that's not the claim you made.

Btw. what about a reponse to my post above?
See, everyone here has seen this argument before, and they've all seen me or people like me defeat your argument in about three strokes.

1) didnt use the lack of god as an argument. just said it was the simplist answer.

2)eheheheheh quote me a source that names jesus other than the bible. As to leif Erricson the story matches the history (ie. a viking setlement found in newfoundland.) has jesus left behind any physical proof? youd think the lance woulda been preserved? or the cup? a bone fragment or two? his tomb? anything????? plz????

I don't think he was claiming to be infallible, just that he had on occasion observed a particularly puerile brand of fallibility.

true but id claim thats age independant

yes but no. You have an educated idea of what they are going to do. being omnipotent means controlling everything!!!! including choice.

Um, no, it doesn't. English 101. Omnipotent means being capable of controlling everything. I have the power to put a bullet in my computer screen, but it doesn't mean I have to do it.


therefore no free will. Also being omniscient means knowing everything past present and future therefore your decisions are already made therefore no free will
Again, this is all based on your flawed understanding of omnipotent.

If I was capable of controlling everything, but also required to do so, I wouldn't be omnipotent, as I wouldn't have the power to control my own power.

See, everyone here has seen this argument before, and they've all seen me or people like me defeat your argument in about three strokes.

Not the only thing you're done with after 3 strokes.

I had to, it's the law

Um, no, it doesn't. English 101. Omnipotent means being capable of controlling everything. I have the power to put a bullet in my computer screen, but it doesn't mean I have to do it.



Again, this is all based on your flawed understanding of omnipotent.

If I was capable of controlling everything, but also required to do so, I wouldn't be omnipotent, as I wouldn't have the power to control my own power.

Yes if a being is capable of controlling everything that means it is capable of controlling choice throwing the idea of free will out the window.

2)agreed that was my point originally.

1) didnt use the lack of god as an argument. just said it was the simplist answer.

An answer is an argument, friend, and your answer is circular. You're using a lack of God to prove a lack of God (which is what the OP is trying to prove).


2)eheheheheh quote me a source that names jesus other than the bible. As to leif Erricson the story matches the history (ie. a viking setlement found in newfoundland.) has jesus left behind any physical proof? youd think the lance woulda been preserved? or the cup? a bone fragment or two? his tomb? anything????? plz????
So I have to educate you about this now? You're welcome to start a thread about it. The last one is one of the top 10 in NSG history and I was the most prolific poster in the thread.

I'm not responsible for your ignorance, friend. Meanwhile, you continue to engage in a fallacy. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.

That you can't surprise someone isn't a requirement of free will. Only choosing is, and you do choose. That someone already knows what the outcome is, doesn't change that you chose.

Ah, but if I happen to choose DIFFERENTLY (having at least one different option is a requirement for choice) it would surprise them, wouldn't it?

The point is, if God knows I'm going to have a bagel for breakfast tomorrow, I can't surprise him, I can't prove him wrong. I am going to have a bagel. I can no longer choose to have cereal. That's the difference between Him and you making a prediction.


Or you could apply them properly, though the latter is probably not going to happen. ;-)

Wow, went to that quickly, didn't you? The fact is, yeah, I happen to think that a thing that can decide what the rules of reality are can change them as easily as I can just set a ball in the pocket if I'm the only one playing. If there is a God, it doesn't have to be logical if it doesn't want to.

Yes if a being is capable of controlling everything that means it is capable of controlling choice throwing the idea of free will out the window.

2)agreed that was my point originally.

Capable of controlling choice, not required to. That it's capable of it doesn't negate free will. It's only if it engages that power where free will disappates. It's equally capable of not disturbing free will. That you don't understand the meaning of the term omnipotent is a flaw in your argument, not a trophy.

true but id claim thats age independant

But because experience can often make a difference, the general trend he was describing is sound.

The point is, he wasn't claiming infallibility.

An answer is an argument, friend, and your answer is circular. You're using a lack of God to prove a lack of God (which is what the OP is trying to prove).



So I have to educate you about this now? You're welcome to start a thread about it. The last one is one of the top 10 in NSG history and I was the most prolific poster in the thread.

I'm not responsible for your ignorance, friend. Meanwhile, you continue to engage in a fallacy. Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack.

1)lol agian I Wasnt trying to prove the lack of god!!!!!!!! All i said was that lack of god was the simplest answer to the guys questions. Anything you infer from that is your own problem
2)bullshit. Have you actually read the bible cover to cover? I have and you think you can call me ignorant? now heres the thing. I haven't managed to find A single reliable source to state that jesus ever existed outside of the bible. And i don't consider it a reliable source. What I was hopping was that you could provide me some conclusive evidence that he did. And I agree Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack in all cases. But this guy was meant to be HUGE . he started his own religion! SO youd think thered be SOME mention.

I'm DEFINITELY not a Christian, but I enjoy the art of debate so I'll try arguing against the OP.

Point 1: Amputees.
Rather than necessarily having a special plan for amputees it's possible the special plan in mind may involve others around the amputee or around the people around them. Unfortunately for me, this point is rather hard to defend, but unfortunately for you, your points aren't as intelligent as you are trying to sound.

Point 2: Starving People
First I want to say that as a fellow atheist. I'm sickened by your lust for insult here. You're telling people what they think and what to think rather than welcome possible alternate views. To me, atheists in your close-minded group are as bad as many extreme Christians.
On to the point, if this world truly is only a prologue to His domain after life, perhaps the most important thing is not the amount someone eats or is fed or the pain or pleasure, but the acts they do accordingly. Various lessons for various people. What a better point for you, and one I bring up during debates is why does God allow abortions to happen, when that child has learned nothing? Of course an easy defense being it is teaching the parents or some 3rd party something or they will be judged on their actions that day. If life is as useless as the bible suggests, any pain or discomfort in this world is useless, as the ability to see through it and still do "good" would come in front as you would then be entered into a perfectly good existence.

Point 3: Pain & Death
Again, more insults and putting words in people's mouth. I'm not so sure you understand your hypocrisy.
Fortunately for you, between your insults and foul words I find no fault in logic here. If you want to further any points here, remove the insults and replace it with discussion on the "problem of evil". In which you bring up: How can a 100% good and omnipotent god want to create the possibility of evil and the possibility of choosing something other than god? Freedom of choice? That would be torturing subjects for literally no reason other than the pain they are inflicted. You have beaten me here.

Point 4: Anti-scientific non-sense
Supposing the bible was written by man and more specifically man who heard God, it is possible, in the Christian logic, that God didn't discuss the dates that were written. Not to mention your lines like "God did not create Adam from dust" is perhaps the worst excuse for a discussion point I've heard. You should phrase it in the way like: Beings cannot be created from dust. You try so hard to have intelligent points but then your passionate hatred just makes you look foolish.
And not everyone thinks God wrote the bible. That's an obvious point.

Point 5: Slavery
You're going to need to quote exactly from the bible, instead of "interpreting" it for us. That's just poor debate. When you do that I'll retort here, mainly because I don't own a bible currently to look those up and am too lazy to google.

Point 6: Bad things; good people
Already defended this point: in this world there is no bad things happening or good things. It's more of the matter of what you do with what you're given. Even as an atheist I can appreciate someone making the best of the situation.

Point 7: Miracles
Another ridiculous claim from you... Basically wouldn't God/Jesus, if they had the ability to cast miracles, also probably have the ability to cover them up?

Point 8: Jesus never appeared
I don't know any Christians asking for Jesus to appear. Besides any that do are seriously not aware of the greater good they're supposed to follow. The idea is that they follow in Christ's footsteps and beliefs to try to become what the bible considers a good person. As for Jesus not appearing when you pray, well if he appeared when people prayed he wouldn't be such an icon. Besides, if you think about the implications of if he did appear you'd be left wondering if it would do any good to a Christian. It would be better to weed out the true believers from the non-believers rather than convert with such over-active displays.

Point 9: Eat Body Drink Blood
Your weakest point yet, that ritual has little to do with drinking blood or eating him. That's not the point and I'm surprised you can't see that. Do a google search for it and RESEARCH instead of making silly claims.

Point 10: Divorce
So divorce = no god? Wow, you're just getting more and more ridiculous! First, cite your statistics. Second, even if that's so Christians are as human as the rest of us and if the bible and god truly believe it to be immoral then those who divorce are immoral themselves. Just because a Christian does something against the bible doesn't make the bible a lie.

When it comes down to it, I admit I think Christians are fools who need to believe in a god to stay happy and on the right track. I agree with your idea, but your points are immature. Besides, think about what would happen if every Christian became an atheist and you'll understand why, philosophically, there's a problem. Read Thus Spoke Zarthustra (sp) by Nietzsche. He explains that there is no God, but if you take God away from the idiotic majority you loose a moral direction and will have a lot of stupid people with no beliefs to guide them. Lots of problems.
So go back to the rest of the internet, maybe even the bookstore, and do research. Read up on some atheist's points. Talk about the problem of evil and how it is illogical for a God to create evil and knowingly subject people to it. You tried to touch on this point but went of on little cry-baby tangents.

Hopefully you can evolve your opinions more next time you debate. Don't expect me to have defended these points as well as others can, either. (Read anthony flew) I'm just trying to offer some game for you.

Capable of controlling choice, not required to. That it's capable of it doesn't negate free will. It's only if it engages that power where free will disappates. It's equally capable of not disturbing free will. That you don't understand the meaning of the term omnipotent is a flaw in your argument, not a trophy.

no not my point. The original claim was that god had engaged in omnipotence by somehow aging things. Thus omnipotance has been used requiring that free will at some point was violated.

1)lol agian I Wasnt trying to prove the lack of god!!!!!!!! All i said was that lack of god was the simplest answer to the guys questions. Anything you infer from that is your own problem
2)bullshit. Have you actually read the bible cover to cover? I have and you think you can call me ignorant? now heres the thing. I haven't managed to find A single reliable source to state that jesus ever existed outside of the bible. And i don't consider it a reliable source. What I was hopping was that you could provide me some conclusive evidence that he did. And I agree Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack in all cases. But this guy was meant to be HUGE . he started his own religion! SO youd think thered be SOME mention.

Be fair, though, DaWoad.

Jo already said he's not claiming that he can prove categorically that Jesus existed, and he even said that he isn't claiming the Bible as a perfect source.

He's acknowledge, fairly, that it can't be demonstrated irrefutably either way.

Ah, but if I happen to choose DIFFERENTLY (having at least one different option is a requirement for choice) it would surprise them, wouldn't it?

Actually, by definition, it wouldn't. You're arguing for true randomness, and we have yet to demonstrate that such a thing occurs with any surety. All evidence suggests that randomness disappears with enough information (though we have found evidence that our ability to gather information may never overcome some things).


The point is, if God knows I'm going to have a bagel for breakfast tomorrow, I can't surprise him, I can't prove him wrong. I am going to have a bagel. I can no longer choose to have cereal. That's the difference between Him and you making a prediction.

Surprise isn't a requirement of free will. Free will only requires that you have a free choice, and God is not restricting that simply because he has an extremely (read entirely) educated guess at the outcome.

Seriously, this logic experiment is constantly defeated. Don't tell me you've not engaged in this before, J. Honestly, you know better.



Wow, went to that quickly, didn't you? The fact is, yeah, I happen to think that a thing that can decide what the rules of reality are can change them as easily as I can just set a ball in the pocket if I'm the only one playing. If there is a God, it doesn't have to be logical if it doesn't want to.

I'm not claiming that God would change the rules. I'm saying that under our own rules, there is no violation. Omnipotent doesn't require me to use any power at all. It only requires a capability to do so.

aight bed now answer any more arguments tomorrow. and fine man thats fair. Sry when people call me ignorant because I dont believe in a magical invisible being I get ticked.

no not my point. The original claim was that god had engaged in omnipotence by somehow aging things. Thus omnipotance has been used requiring that free will at some point was violated.

Woah, hang on.

I can agree where omniscience of all future events removes the possibility of somebody then going a different way, but how does "aging" things violate free will?

Actually, by definition, it wouldn't. You're arguing for true randomness, and we have yet to demonstrate that such a thing occurs with any surety. All evidence suggests that randomness disappears with enough information (though we have found evidence that our ability to gather information may never overcome some things).




Surprise isn't a requirement of free will. Free will only requires that you have a free choice, and God is not restricting that simply because he has an extremely (read entirely) educated guess at the outcome.

Seriously, this logic experiment is constantly defeated. Don't tell me you've not engaged in this before, J. Honestly, you know better.





I'm not claiming that God would change the rules. I'm saying that under our own rules, there is no violation. Omnipotent doesn't require me to use any power at all. It only requires a capability to do so.

Yes but according to a previous claim he does and did excercise it. thats what this was all about. and there is true randomness (take one single atom of a radio-isotop and after its halife see if it has decayed or not. the answer is truely random.)

Not true. he is. by already knowing the outcome that means you cannot change the path you take. If god already knows what choice I will make I cannot make any other choice and therefore I am incapable of free will (technically I'm not actually sure free will exists even in the abscance of god but thats another point.)

1)lol agian I Wasnt trying to prove the lack of god!!!!!!!! All i said was that lack of god was the simplest answer to the guys questions. Anything you infer from that is your own problem

So you admit that your answer wasn't intended to be considered correct in any way. Oh, good. I'm pretty sure no one gave it a modicum of credibility anyway.

Let me know when you know what an answer is? You didn't say "God might not exist" or "God may not exist", but the easiest answer is "God doesn't exist", which is a claim you've got no evidence for.

2)bullshit. Have you actually read the bible cover to cover? I have and you think you can call me ignorant? now heres the thing. I haven't managed to find A single reliable source to state that jesus ever existed outside of the bible. And i don't consider it a reliable source. What I was hopping was that you could provide me some conclusive evidence that he did. And I agree Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack in all cases. But this guy was meant to be HUGE . he started his own religion! SO youd think thered be SOME mention.

Heh. Not only have I read the Bible, but I've also read other contemporary writings to the Bible. I can easily assume you've not, because there are several that you'd have brought up by now if you weren't ignorant about the subject. Like I said, there was a 10000 post thread about this. I was the most prolific poster in the thread. I might just have a bit of knowledge on the subject, but go ahead and start a thread if you like, it'll be funny watching you get pwned.

Meanwhile, tell me where I said I could conclusively prove Jesus existed. I can't conclusively prove that Socrates existed either.

Woah, hang on.

I can agree where omniscience of all future events removes the possibility of somebody then going a different way, but how does "aging" things violate free will?
Technically doesn't except that it changes the ability of a scientist to make a decision. as well as altering outcomes around the life of particles but this argument is way to twiseted and so basically I'm wrong bout that violating free will sry

Actually, by definition, it wouldn't. You're arguing for true randomness, and we have yet to demonstrate that such a thing occurs with any surety. All evidence suggests that randomness disappears with enough information (though we have found evidence that our ability to gather information may never overcome some things).

I never said my choice was random, it would have to be deliberate to be choice.

What I'm arguing for (if I may make my own argument please), is that if God's very educated choice can predict me to 100%, there is no possibility for me to go the other way.

So, if God had 100% certainty of all my actions before I was ever created, and he made me knowing I was going to choose wrong and go to hell (not saying everybody believes in hell), he made me already knowing what my choice was going to be.

To me, surprise for the predictor really is part of choice, because if I can't surprise Him, how many outcomes are now possible? One. One outcome is possible. That isn't choice.


Surprise isn't a requirement of free will. Free will only requires that you have a free choice, and God is not restricting that simply because he has an extremely (read entirely) educated guess at the outcome.

Once its entirely known, its no longer a guess.


Seriously, this logic experiment is constantly defeated. Don't tell me you've not engaged in this before, J. Honestly, you know better.

If you want me to be really honest, I don't see any real cogent argument in the immediately above quote.



I'm not claiming that God would change the rules. I'm saying that under our own rules, there is no violation. Omnipotent doesn't require me to use any power at all. It only requires a capability to do so.

I'm not the one saying his omnipotence is the problem. That's Da Woad.

Jocabia, please let me make my own arguments. I'm asking you that honestly and with respect.

Technically doesn't except that it changes the ability of a scientist to make a decision. as well as altering outcomes around the life of particles but this argument is way to twiseted and so basically I'm wrong bout that violating free will sry

Wow. So how many strokes was that, J?

*Yes, I used strokes on purpose.

So you admit that your answer wasn't intended to be considered correct in any way. Oh, good. I'm pretty sure no one gave it a modicum of credibility anyway.

Let me know when you know what an answer is? You didn't say "God might not exist" or "God may not exist", but the easiest answer is "God doesn't exist", which is a claim you've got no evidence for.



Heh. Not only have I read the Bible, but I've also read other contemporary writings to the Bible. I can easily assume you've not, because there are several that you'd have brought up by now if you weren't ignorant about the subject. Like I said, there was a 10000 post thread about this. I was the most prolific poster in the thread. I might just have a bit of knowledge on the subject, but go ahead and start a thread if you like, it'll be funny watching you get pwned.

Meanwhile, tell me where I said I could conclusively prove Jesus existed. I can't conclusively prove that Socrates existed either.

Didn't you just say it above? And why are you saying I'm ignorant exactly? I;v read the bible and I'v read the histories of the roman times. I'm also a scientist (researcher actually) and just because I;v come to a different conclusion than you does not in any way prove that I am ignorant. so would ya stop it with the petty name callign already. As to bringing em up at the point you and I would get to its a matter of interpretation anyway.

Wow. So how many strokes was that, J?

*Yes, I used strokes on purpose.

what?
I just said that aging animals doesn't change free will . . . .?

Wow. So how many strokes was that, J?

*Yes, I used strokes on purpose.

Again, Jo, as you can see from multiple previous posts of mine, I wasn't objecting to omnipotence as the problem.

The part I don't like is the future omniscience, His "education" letting him see factors that make my choice limited to one possible outcome, which isn't really choice.

If He knows factors that make my action a foregone conclusion, then those factors exist, and I cannot choice contrary to those factors. That isn't choice.

Again, Jo, as you can see from multiple previous posts of mine, I wasn't objecting to omnipotence as the problem.

The part I don't like is the future omniscience, His "education" letting him see factors that make my choice limited to one possible outcome, which isn't really choice.

If He knows factors that make my action a foregone conclusion, then those factors exist, and I cannot choice contrary to those factors. That isn't choice.

Just to clear the record. My problem with omnipotence is that you cannot have both omnipotence and omniscience. You cannot be able to change every decision yet already know the outcome of every decision because if you know the outcome you cant change it. therefore logically God cannot be as the bible describes him/her. therefore logically God must exist as something other than the bibles description or not exist at all.
bed sleep now
later guys/gals.

Question 2: Let us start with this one should we, you have said that Christians believe that their God is all loving and all caring; well there is your first mistake, as you have used the Old Testament to try and prove your point we will use that then. There are numerous examples in the Old Testament which shows that he is not all loving and all caring where he has destroyed entire towns you are incorrect in saying that.

Question 3: All of the passages you have used are from the Old Testament, yes while the Old Testament is a part of the Christian Scriptures the laws in there are not actually applicable to Christians, remember that the early Christians and Christ did not agree with the teachings of Judaism, thus to use these example to ask Christians to question their faith is incorrect you should be asking this question to the Jews of the world after all it is there laws, of course that may be considered anti Semitic but that is for another debate. Show me when in the teachings of Christ that it says those things.

Question 4: Now this all depends on if you take the Bible as symbolic or literal.

When in the Bible does it say the flood covered Mt Everest? That is a rhetoric question as I know what you are going to say so don’t bother. Now when this story was being told or when it happened, what was the “world” to people who lived 3000 years ago? Did it include the sub continent? The Americas? Asia? No it did not why, because it was not a part of their world. And that is what we have to remember we are talking about their world to them not our world as we know it today, What about those living in the 12th century the Americas certainly won’t know of neither was Australia, so when people hearing the story of Noah back then they may have questioned that story asking how could it cover Mt Blanc, or the Pyrenees. As Europe, North Africa, and the Arabian Peninsula was their world. Now our world is also open to interpretation, we could just include the Earth but is not our “world” it may also include the planets the moon and the rest of the galaxy? It all depends on how you wish to take the meaning of “world”. As I said their world was only a small section so their “world” may have been covered with water for a long time I would say 40 days and 40 nights but that is another discussion about Hebrew language. Archeological diggings in Ancient Babylonia have uncovered evidence of a large flood in the area, so maybe there very well was a flood that covered their “world”.

Now let us turn your attention to the 6 days, now again this will depend on if you wish to take this part of the Bible as literal or symbolic. What was a billion to the ancients? Did this number even exist in their vocabulary? Perhaps not so they needed to describe the making of the earth in a time frame that the ancients could comprehend, also one where the Jews could successfully give homage to God in this case once every seven days by taking the day off and every seventh year a field is not ploughed etc. Had they said it took 14 billion years how could they pay homage, by taking two billion years off every 14 billion? No of course not so as stated in the reasons above it is more of a symbolism story rather than a literal story.

The Bible says that he took soil from the ground to make man, now this comes down to some extent to mistranslation the Hebrew word for ground has a very similar sound as man take that as you will. But where did man come from evolved from apes, and where did they come from some say sea faring creatures and then where did they come from? From microbes in the ground. I don’t know perhaps a biologist can explain the tree to me, not evolution I have that down pat, indeed I am currently in the middle of reading a book written by a naturalist that traveled on the HMS Beagle for five years.

Question 5: Again with the first passage a Jewish passage and he doesn’t say in that passage that it is alright for people to own slaves, and if you beat slave and it dies then the owner must be punished hmmm.
Now the following three are from the New Testament well done, however, for the first of the three, it does say slaves need to obey their masters what else would you expect of a slave. The second one of these is exactly the same as the first one so why do you repeat yourself? As for the third one it says servants not slaves.

Question 6: What?

Question 7: Well could you bring in jugs of wine and expect them to last 2000 years?

Question 8: Have you prayed for him to appear to you? Regardless he doesn’t say that he will come in person when you pray for him, so what are you trying to say?

Question 9: Again it is symbolism it is not actually his body and blood that is almost laughable.

Question 10: A lot of Christian churches allow divorce the Anglican Church/Church of England was formed for that very reason, so what is your point with this one

And it seems you couldn’t come up with this yourself come one mate do it properly, and the little smear campaign against the Christians stopped a few weeks ago, you are a bit behind the fad mate come on keep with the program.

I never said my choice was random, it would have to be deliberate to be choice.

And if it isn't random, than if you had the knowledge of all the factors that went into that choice, even those factors that would cause you to choose in a semi-random fashion, I could predict the outcome without speaking to free will in any way.


What I'm arguing for (if I may make my own argument please), is that if God's very educated choice can predict me to 100%, there is no possibility for me to go the other way.

There's a possibility that you can any way you like, but AOB (An Omniscient Being) will know that you're going to do it.


So, if God had 100% certainty of all my actions before I was ever created, and he made me knowing I was going to choose wrong and go to hell (not saying everybody believes in hell), he made me already knowing what my choice was going to be.

Sure. Which is why I don't believe in hell. Well, partly. However, you still had a choice.


To me, surprise for the predictor really is part of choice, because if I can't surprise Him, how many outcomes are now possible? One. One outcome is possible. That isn't choice.

All outcomes are possible until the moment you make the choice, when the outcome narrows down to one. This is a given in probability. The problem is that theory is time-dependent. If you were omniscient, you are by nature not dependent on time, so by being able to see that future even, you'd see the choice you made at the moment you narrowed your possibilities to one. It does not remove you from the action.


Once its entirely known, its no longer a guess.

Sure. But the word isn't the point.


If you want me to be really honest, I don't see any real cogent argument in the immediately above quote.

There wasn't. I am honestly surprised you've not seen this thought experiment before. It's fairly common, and truly when you think it through you'll find the flaw. The flaw is glaring.


I'm not the one saying his omnipotence is the problem. That's Da Woad.

Jocabia, please let me make my own arguments. I'm asking you that honestly and with respect.

You jumped into an argument. You have to recognize this brings some baggage with it. I'm not intentionally trying to assign an argument to you that's not yours, but I'm running with the context of the argument I was making. If you intended to change the line of argument, it's necessary to make that clear.

Just to clear the record. My problem with omnipotence is that you cannot have both omnipotence and omniscience. You cannot be able to change every decision yet already know the outcome of every decision because if you know the outcome you cant change it

But that's not a limitation of omnipotence, its a limitation on any thing that acts.

If you've already seen, through an "entirely educated guess" what everything is going to do, that means that factors exist that allow you to make that prediction.

Those factors evidently existed before I was born, since God knew my actions before I was born.

If God can see those factors (be "educated" about them), then those factors exist and I cannot act contrary to them, whether I'm omnipotent or not.

Didn't you just say it above? And why are you saying I'm ignorant exactly? I;v read the bible and I'v read the histories of the roman times. I'm also a scientist (researcher actually) and just because I;v come to a different conclusion than you does not in any way prove that I am ignorant.
Somehow I doubt your claim, or at least I hope like hell you take your research to an English professor to actually correct your horrible writing style.

Your 10 questions are fundamentally flawed for a number of reasons. You present assumptions, such as that the bible declares the world to be 6000 years old, that are not universally held interpretations. Additionally, science, reason and faith are not mutually exclusive. It is perfectly acceptable for one to believe, to know, and to discover completely independent of the other two proceses.

Your questions do not indicate someone who wants an answer, but because I'm tired, and feeling slightly underaccomplished, I will say, as someone who has known their fair share of adversity, that for many people the answer to your questions are far less important than the belief or hope that there are things that we don't understand, and that someone is willing to try to make things better. Christ did not teach anything even close to the points you mentioned, and in fact deliberately avoided similar such questioning because they arn't what's important, even though to a frustrated young mind they can seem to be. The only commandment given was to love. From there, all else is considered ancillary.

It's easy to criticize various religions, and especially the people within them, but to do so is to miss the point- if you have questions for man, ask them of men. If you have questions of God, ask them of him.

I hope I did not lose the spirit of what I attempted to convey in the telling of it. There are longer and shorter answers to each and every question you asked, but virtually none of them are simple, just as there are countless chemical, biological, and physical questions that when oversimplified lend themselves to misinterpretation and misunderstaning.

I encourage a spirited, but hopefully respectful, respone.

Didn't you just say it above? And why are you saying I'm ignorant exactly? I;v read the bible and I'v read the histories of the roman times. I'm also a scientist (researcher actually) and just because I;v come to a different conclusion than you does not in any way prove that I am ignorant. so would ya stop it with the petty name callign already. As to bringing em up at the point you and I would get to its a matter of interpretation anyway.

What proves your ignorant is that anyone discussing the existence of Jesus would bring up certain texts in which he was mentioned if not simply to demonstrate problems with their credibility. There are many texts that are not in the Bible that mention Jesus. For example there are other gospels. And now you've mentioned the Romans. Which Roman texts mention Jesus? (Quick, run to google.) Now, again, if you'd like to discuss the existence of Jesus, it's a thread on its own. This is the last reply you'll get. I'm not here to educate you on arguing.

Ignorant is name-calling. It's relevant to a discussion if you demonstrate you aren't educated on the subject. You have.

okay i have a question, why does god let retarded, or disfigured babies be born? or childrn born to die, why doom someone from birth?


is it to punish the parents?

or is it because of demons?

i mean whats the point?

another question is acually a hypothetical situation, if guy is in a coma for almost all his life, and before he got into the coma, as a child or something, when that person dies, will coma dude go to heaven?

i know thats alot of ifs, but then again, what if?

And if it isn't random, than if you had the knowledge of all the factors that went into that choice, even those factors that would cause you to choose in a semi-random fashion, I could predict the outcome without speaking to free will in any way.

Those factors narrow my choice, and if those factors can be brought to 100%(your word "entirely) then it narrows them to one. I'm sorry you don't see how that speaks to free will, but it does.


There's a possibility that you can any way you like, but AOB (An Omniscient Being) will know that you're going to do it.

Sure. Which is why I don't believe in hell. Well, partly. However, you still had a choice.

Could I choose to do anything other that what the AOB knew I was going to do? No, I couldn't. My "choice" was limited to one possible outcome. You keep avoiding that.


All outcomes are possible until the moment you make the choice, when the outcome narrows down to one. This is a given in probability. The problem is that theory is time-dependent. If you were omniscient, you are by nature not dependent on time, so by being able to see that future even, you'd see the choice you made at the moment you narrowed your possibilities to one. It does not remove you from the action.

The idea of prediction itself is time dependent. If God sees everything happening at once, great, but if he saw that everything before I was born, from his perspective, its set.



Sure. But the word isn't the point.

All of our points here are being made using words. When your words contradict themselves, you need to take responsibility for that.


There wasn't. I am honestly surprised you've not seen this thought experiment before. It's fairly common, and truly when you think it through you'll find the flaw. The flaw is glaring.

So now the only possiblilty is that you are right? I can't even choose to disagree with you, even on reflection?


You jumped into an argument. You have to recognize this brings some baggage with it. I'm not intentionally trying to assign an argument to you that's not yours, but I'm running with the context of the argument I was making. If you intended to change the line of argument, it's necessary to make that clear.

Jocabia, I swear to you on my life, and with the further evidence that you can easily go through this thread and confirm the following: I made it repeatedly and very clear that my argument was distinct from Da Woad's. I did that before you lumped us together.

I DID develop an explicitly separate argument from Da Woad's, and made that clear to both.

Jocabia, I'm sorry, man, but what you're doing here isn't right. I may be right or wrong on the main theme, but I just looked back and saw for a straight FACT that I clearly DID develop my own argument separate from anybody else's, and I made that clear in multiple posts.

I'm going to bed, and honestly, I don't think I'm coming back to nationstates. I honestly thought you were one of the best here, but what you're doing isn't right.

Again, Jo, as you can see from multiple previous posts of mine, I wasn't objecting to omnipotence as the problem.

The part I don't like is the future omniscience, His "education" letting him see factors that make my choice limited to one possible outcome, which isn't really choice.

If He knows factors that make my action a foregone conclusion, then those factors exist, and I cannot choice contrary to those factors. That isn't choice.
Of course that also assumes both a linear universe and a linear God as well.

Jocabia, I'm sorry, man, but what you're doing here isn't right. I may be right or wrong on the main theme, but I just looked back and saw for a straight FACT that I clearly DID develop my own argument separate from anybody else's, and I made that clear in multiple posts.

I'm going to bed, and honestly, I don't think I'm coming back to nationstates. I honestly thought you were one of the best here, but what you're doing isn't right.

I think you'll feel better in the morning. There was certainly no intention to lump the two of you together. I admit that I may have mixed up your posts with the other poster. I didn't realize I was even having two arguments at first, as I said.

It's 3AM so I haven't gone back to look at the previous posts to see what you see, but I'm certain you must realize that it's not malicious. I like talking to you and certainly didn't intend to chase you away. That said, good night and I hope you feel better about this tomorrow. The danger of mixing a thread where two people are having an intelligent conversation with a thread where someone is trying to goad me into to explaining to them why assuming a negative is a fallacy is that one might conflate the two. I'm sorry, but while I realized you were also arguing with the other poster, I did not notice right away that you were also making a seperate argument to me. It happens. Now that we both recognize that, let's move on.

I assure you that I'm appropriately contrite about the fact that you feel insulted by the fact I conflated the arguments, but I'm only human. I think perhaps you're holding me to too high a standard. As to the part about you agreeing, I accept that you could convince me, but, honestly, I've not seen something new here. It's an argument I think that everyone has to go through either internally, externally or by reading it. It's a pretty common thought experiment. I recognize that you might be like the pioneer who found a flaw in Newton's laws, but wouldn't it be ludicrous if I even remotely suspected that to be true before you'd demonstrated that to be so? I'm simply a logical being. Logic dictates that I have to follow the evidence. I simply told you that the evidence dictates that you'll be on my side in the end, so I reflected that.

Of course that also assumes both a linear universe and a linear God as well.

Exactly. We are constrained to time so we tend to assume everything is. With enough time, the probability of the choice that you eventually choose is 1. If I were not constrained by time, I would necessarily no that outcome even if I had no possibility to interact with you other than observation, and that certainly would not negate free will.

Didn't you just say it above? And why are you saying I'm ignorant exactly? I;v read the bible and I'v read the histories of the roman times. I'm also a scientist (researcher actually) and just because I;v come to a different conclusion than you does not in any way prove that I am ignorant. so would ya stop it with the petty name callign already. As to bringing em up at the point you and I would get to its a matter of interpretation anyway.

What proves you're ignorant is that anyone discussing the existence of Jesus would bring up certain texts in which he was mentioned if not simply to demonstrate problems with their credibility. There are many texts that are not in the Bible that mention Jesus. For example there are other gospels. And now you've mentioned the Romans. Which Roman texts mention Jesus? (Quick, run to google.) Now, again, if you'd like to discuss the existence of Jesus, it's a thread on its own. This is the last reply you'll get. I'm not here to educate you on arguing.

Ignorant is not name-calling. It's relevant to a discussion if you demonstrate you aren't educated on the subject. You have.

Those factors narrow my choice, and if those factors can be brought to 100%(your word "entirely) then it narrows them to one. I'm sorry you don't see how that speaks to free will, but it does.

Let's simplify. What is the probability today that the South will win the Civil War in 1865? The question seems ludicrous, because it's none. Because it's the past, there is only one possible outcome. So either you have to assert that no being can exist outside of the bounds of time, something you certainly can't prove. Or you have to assert that freewill doesn't exist whether or not that being exists. Or you have to assert that knowledge that result from such a being's very nature does not speak to free will. Those are the choices.

1)lol agian I Wasnt trying to prove the lack of god!!!!!!!! All i said was that lack of god was the simplest answer to the guys questions. Anything you infer from that is your own problem
2)bullshit. Have you actually read the bible cover to cover? I have and you think you can call me ignorant? now heres the thing. I haven't managed to find A single reliable source to state that jesus ever existed outside of the bible. And i don't consider it a reliable source. What I was hopping was that you could provide me some conclusive evidence that he did. And I agree Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack in all cases. But this guy was meant to be HUGE . he started his own religion! SO youd think thered be SOME mention.

So I suppose Jewish scholars are unreliable sources too.

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day"

That is a passage from Antiquities of the Jews written by Flavius Josephus. I have also seen various documentaries which have also told of other non-Christian sources about the existence of a man named Jesus back in that time. To say that there was no man named Jesus walking around in that part of the world around 2000 years ago is ridiculous; to say he wasn't the son of God and had divine powers is something completely different

So I suppose Jewish scholars are unreliable sources too.

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day"

That is a passage from Antiquities of the Jews written by Flavius Josephus. I have also seen various documentaries which have also told of other non-Christian sources about the existence of a man named Jesus back in that time. To say that there was no man named Jesus walking around in that part of the world around 2000 years ago is ridiculous; to say he wasn't the son of God and had divine powers is something completely different

Please start a thread for this, because in like two pages it will have engulfed all of this one.

There are serious doubts as to the veracity of the Josephus passage you cited, but at least you were aware it existed.

Now, please, start a thread if you wish to argue about this. Don't hijack this one.

So I suppose Jewish scholars are unreliable sources too.

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day"

That is a passage from Antiquities of the Jews written by Flavius Josephus. I have also seen various documentaries which have also told of other non-Christian sources about the existence of a man named Jesus back in that time. To say that there was no man named Jesus walking around in that part of the world around 2000 years ago is ridiculous; to say he wasn't the son of God and had divine powers is something completely different

Josephus' account is not first hand. It is just hearsay from folks who were already following the new Christian faith.

But then the ceiling fell. And they were not able to kill...not able to kill...unable to kill...No I must kill the demons, kill the demons, No I must kill the demons.

NO JOHN, YOU ARE THE DEMONS

Please start a thread for this, because in like two pages it will have engulfed all of this one.

There are serious doubts as to the veracity of the Josephus passage you cited, but at least you were aware it existed.

Now, please, start a thread if you wish to argue about this. Don't hijack this one.

I don't think it matters. This crazy train is already off the rails.

Woah...

What did I miss? How has this thread lasted this long?

So I suppose Jewish scholars are unreliable sources too.

You got that right


as far as the bible, and Christianity are concerned, its one big lie - the bible was written by a sect of hebrews, hence why there are so many judaic parts to the christian bible, which gives rise to the theory of the old testament and the new testament

The old Testament was written back in older times when the jews power was still weak, and they needed other religions to die off a bit so they could rise up in the power vacuum - so many wars of faith were fought by christians against non-christians, such as King Richard and the crusades, with so many dying on either side, and the jews staying very far away from the conflict so they would be the survivors, and rise in power

sadly for them, not every non-hebrew was willing to go off an die for their religion, and so, the hebrews had to come up with a new plan - the new testament

the New testament teaches its followers to become lazy sloths who, as long as they do a couple good things, and go to church every sunday, they magically get a free ticket to heaven, regardless of what they really do in life outside of these minor rules.
Hence why i have met new testament christians by the bucketload who are like that - most of them actually obey the ten commandments, because they are so laid back that sin would be too much hard work, and they seem to feel that just simply living is enough to get to heaven, because what the hell, Jesus already died for them and wash away their sins, they dont need to actually do anything to prove their faith
but lets not forget all those who are evil by nature and commit any sin they want, because they feel that [what the hell, jesus died to wash away the sins of my life, i may as well sin, ill be clear of evil when i die]
- - - - -

some must see that since the Hebrews first plan for non-hebrews killing each other off didnt work, that they made plan B, where non-hebrews are easily led like sheep into whatever they want them to believe

You got that right


as far as the bible, and Christianity are concerned, its one big lie - the bible was written by a sect of hebrews, hence why there are so many judaic parts to the christian bible, which gives rise to the theory of the old testament and the new testament

The old Testament was written back in older times when the jews power was still weak, and they needed other religions to die off a bit so they could rise up in the power vacuum - so many wars of faith were fought by christians against non-christians, such as King Richard and the crusades, with so many dying on either side, and the jews staying very far away from the conflict so they would be the survivors, and rise in power

sadly for them, not every non-hebrew was willing to go off an die for their religion, and so, the hebrews had to come up with a new plan - the new testament

the New testament teaches its followers to become lazy sloths who, as long as they do a couple good things, and go to church every sunday, they magically get a free ticket to heaven, regardless of what they really do in life outside of these minor rules.
Hence why i have met new testament christians by the bucketload who are like that - most of them actually obey the ten commandments, because they are so laid back that sin would be too much hard work, and they seem to feel that just simply living is enough to get to heaven, because what the hell, Jesus already died for them and wash away their sins, they dont need to actually do anything to prove their faith
but lets not forget all those who are evil by nature and commit any sin they want, because they feel that [what the hell, jesus died to wash away the sins of my life, i may as well sin, ill be clear of evil when i die]
- - - - -

some must see that since the Hebrews first plan for non-hebrews killing each other off didnt work, that they made plan B, where non-hebrews are easily led like sheep into whatever they want them to believe

lolol

you really give jhahannam a run for his money in the humor department. maybe the 2 of you should get together and work up some routines that you can take on the road.

Could I choose to do anything other that what the AOB knew I was going to do? No, I couldn't. My "choice" was limited to one possible outcome. You keep avoiding that....The idea of prediction itself is time dependent. If God sees everything happening at once, great, but if he saw that everything before I was born, from his perspective, its set.

Yes, there is a logical contradiction with an omniscient being and the existence of free will.

There are several solutions to this.


You can assume that god is such a crazy ass being that he can do paradoxical and illogical things. But this sounds alot like 'don't worry your pretty little head about it', so I don't like this one.
You can assume that god is omniscient but deliberately chooses to be (at least partially) ignorant of the future so that it may remain full of potentiality.
You can assume that god is not an omniscient being.


I like the simplicity of the third one, but I have no other reason for preferring that belief.

Yes, there is a logical contradiction with an omniscient being and the existence of free will.

There are several solutions to this.


You can assume that god is such a crazy ass being that he can do paradoxical and illogical things. But this sounds alot like 'don't worry your pretty little head about it', so I don't like this one.
You can assume that god is omniscient but deliberately chooses to be (at least partially) ignorant of the future so that it may remain full of potentiality.
You can assume that god is not an omniscient being.


I like the simplicity of the third one, but I have no other reason for preferring that belief.

I like the first one, and also God being God can if it wants be outside of time.

Since when did GOD say he would interfere with the natural course of life? This isn't coming from a Christian but a Muslim. Also the definition of GOD is what to the OP?
One of the best sermons I've heard was preached at a memorial service for a aviator pal, who had bought the farm. The preacher had finished talking about the fellow's life and family and wound up with the statement that "God has a lot of explaining to do".

One of the best sermons I've heard was preached at a memorial service for a aviator pal, who had bought the farm. The preacher had finished talking about the fellow's life and family and wound up with the statement that "God has a lot of explaining to do".

and did anyone else think that GOD had to explain why an aviator died? (assuming that he died due to an airplane accident)

The one question I want answers to. When Christian parents are brainwashing their kids to be good little Christians, when the child's prayer fails (which at some point, it invariably will), how do you convince the child it's not their fault. That they prayed hard enough, but god just ignored them this time.

Or is that the desired result, that they should pray harder, so they get more fear of god?

If you are an educated Christian, I would like to talk with you today about an important and interesting question. Have you ever thought about using your college education to think about your faith? Your life and your career demand that you behave and act rationally. Let's apply your critical thinking skills as we discuss 10 simple questions about your religion.

Here is an example of the kind of thing I am talking about: As a Christian, you believe in the power of prayer. According to a recent poll (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42061), 3 out of 4 doctors believe that God is performing medical miracles on earth right now. Most Christians believe that God is curing cancers, healing diseases, reversing the effects of poisons and so on.

So here is question 1: Why won't God heal amputees?

It's a simple question, isn't it? We all know that amputated legs do not spontaneously regenerate in response to prayer. Amputees get no miracles from God.

If you are an intelligent person, you have to admit that it's an interesting question On the one hand, you believe that God answers prayers and performs miracles. On the other hand, you know that God completely ignores amputees when they pray for miracles.

How do you deal with this discrepancy? As an intelligent person, you have to deal with it, because it makes no sense. In order to handle it, notice that you have to create some kind of rationalization. You have to invent an excuse on God's behalf to explain this strange fact of life. You might say, "well, God must have some kind of special plan for amputees." So you invent your excuse, whatever it is, and then you stop thinking about it because it is uncomfortable.

Here is another example. As a Christian, you believe that God cares about you and answers your prayers.

So the second question is: Why are there so many starving people in our world?

Look out at our world and notice that millions of children are dying of starvation. It really is horrific. Why would God be worried about you getting a raise, while at the same time ignoring the prayers of these desperate, innocent little children? It really doesn't make any sense, does it? Why would a loving god do this?

To explain it, you have to come up with some sort of very strange excuse for God. Like, "God wants these children to suffer and die for some divine, mysterious reason." Then you push it out of your mind because it absolutely does not fit with your view of a loving, caring God.

Third question: Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people in the Bible? Look up these verses:

- Exodus 35:2 – God demands that we kill everyone who works on the Sabbath day.

- Deuteronomy 21:18-21 – God demands that we kill disobedient teenagers.

- Leviticus 20:13 – God demands the death of homosexuals.

- Deuteronomy 22:13-21 – God demands that we kill girls who are not virgins when they marry.

And so on… There are lots of verses like these.

It doesn't make any sense, does it? Why would a loving God want us to murder our fellow human beings over such trivial matters? Just because you work on the wrong day of the week, you must die? That makes no sense, does it? In fact, if you think about it, you realize that it is insane. So you create some kind of rationalization to explain these verses.

Question 4: Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense? You have a college degree, so you know what I'm talking about. You know how science works. You happily use the products of science every day: your car, your cell phone, your microwave oven, your TV, your computer. These are all products of the scientific process. You know that science is incredibly important to our economy and to our lives.

But there is a problem. As an educated person you know that the Bible contains all sorts of information that is total nonsense from a scientific perspective.

- God did not create the world in 6 days 6,000 years ago like the Bible says.

- There was never a worldwide flood that covered Mt. Everest like the Bible says.

- Jonah did not live inside a fish's stomach for three days like the Bible says.

- God did not create Adam from a handful of dust like the Bible says.

These stories are all nonsense. Why would an all-knowing God write nonsense? It makes no sense, does it? So you create some type of very strange excuse to try to explain why the Bible contains total nonsense.

Question 5: Why is God such a huge proponent of slavery in the Bible? Look up these Bible verses:

- Exodus 21:20-21 – God says that it is OK to own slaves, and it is also OK to beat them.

- Colossians 3:22-24 – Slaves need to obey their masters.

- Ephesians 6:5 – Slaves need to obey their masters just as they would obey Christ.

- 1 Peter 2:18 – Slaves need to obey their masters, even if their masters are harsh .

And so on…

And why do all intelligent people abhor slavery and make it completely illegal? You have to come up with some kind of weird rationalization to explain it.

Question 6: Why do bad things happen to good people? That makes no sense. You have created an exotic excuse on God's behalf to rationalize it.

Question 7: Why didn't any of Jesus' miracles in the Bible leave behind any evidence? It's very strange, isn't it? You have created an excuse to rationalize it.

Question 8: How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you? Jesus is all-powerful and timeless, but if you pray for Jesus to appear, nothing happens. You have to create a weird rationalization to deal with this discrepancy.

Question 9 – Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood? It sounds totally grotesque, doesn't it? Why would al all-powerful God want you to do something that, in any other context, sounds like a disgusting, cannibalistic, satanic ritual?

And finally, Question 10 – Why do Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians? Christians get married in front of God and their Christian friends, all of whom are praying to God for the marriage to succeed. And then they say, "What God has put together, let no man put asunder." God is all-powerful, so if God has put two people together that should seal the deal, right? Yet Christians get divorced at the same rate as everyone else. To explain this, you have to create some convoluted rationalization.

So, we have looked at 10 fascinating questions. In order to believe in God, you have had to create all sorts of strange rationalizations and excuses. If you are an intelligent, college-educated person, all of these excuses and rationalizations probably make you uncomfortable. If you think about it honestly, using the critical thinking skills that you learned in college, you have to admit that your answers to these questions make no sense at all.

Now, let me show you something remarkable. What if you instead assume that God is imaginary? A funny thing happens: the answers to every one of these questions make complete sense. Just look at all ten questions as an intelligent person:

1) Why won't God heal amputees? Because God is imaginary, and he doesn't answer any prayers. Every "answered prayer" is actually a coincidence. All scientific evidence supports this conclusion.

2) Why are there so many starving people in our world? Because God is imaginary, and he is therefore unable to answer their prayers.

3) Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people in the Bible? Because God is imaginary, and the Bible was written by ridiculous, ruthless men rather than any sort of loving being.

4) Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense? Ditto. Primitive men wrote the bible, not an all-knowing being.

5) Why is God such a huge proponent of slavery? Ditto.

6) Why do bad things happen to good people? Because God is imaginary and bad things happen at the same statistical rates to everyone.

7) Why didn't any of Jesus' miracles in the Bible leave behind any evidence? Because God is imaginary, and Jesus' miracles are myths.

8) How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you? Because God is imaginary.

9) Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood? Because God is imaginary, and this bizarre ritual came from a pagan religion.

10) Why do Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians? Because God is imaginary.

Do you see what has happened here? When we assume that God exists, the answers to these ten questions make absolutely no sense. But if we assume that God is imaginary, our world makes complete sense.

It's interesting, isn't it? Actually, it's more than interesting – it is incredibly important.

Our world only makes sense when we understand that God is imaginary.

This is how intelligent, rational people know that God is imaginary.

When you use your brain, and when you think logically about your religious faith, you can reach only one possible conclusion: the "god" that you have heard about since you were an infant is completely imaginary. You have to willfully discard rationality, and accept hundreds of bizarre rationalizations to believe in your "god."

Now, let me ask you one last question: Why should you care? What difference does it make if people want to believe in a "god", even if he is imaginary?

It matters because people who believe in imaginary beings are delusional.

It matters because people who talk to imaginary beings are delusional.

It matters because people who believe in imaginary superstitions like prayer are delusional.

It's that simple, and that obvious. Your religious beliefs hurt you personally and hurt us as a species because they are delusional. The belief in any "god" is complete nonsense.

You are a smart person. It is time for you to use your intelligence to free yourself from these delusions. It is time for you to begin thinking like a rational human being, rather than clinging to imaginary friends and childhood fantasies.


http://GodIsImaginary.com

http://WhyWontGodHealAmputees.com

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p35/Amun-Ra1/200-Jesus-dumbass.jpg

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p35/Amun-Ra1/200-Jesus-dumbass.jpg
Was that quote really necessary?

Was that quote really necessary?

Yes, it was.

Yes, it was.

That whole thing though, does Jesus really think anybody is a dumbarse?

-snip-

I don't know if I should laugh because it is a joke or to laugh because you are serious in either case lol

Oh and Nanatsu no Tsuki LMAO that is the best way to respond to the OP I will remember that one

That whole thing though, does Jesus really think anybody is a dumbarse?

It not so much if Jesus thinks anyone's a dumbarse. I should've specified that this topic is slightly dumb, and hopefully the thread author understands that I'm not calling him/her a dumbarse.

I don't think Jesus needs us to wonder why God doesn't heal an amputee as much as follow his teachings. And I'm saying this truthfully.

The photo was intended as a joke and if it was taken the wrong way, I can't do anything about it.;)

Please start a thread for this, because in like two pages it will have engulfed all of this one.

There are serious doubts as to the veracity of the Josephus passage you cited, but at least you were aware it existed.

Now, please, start a thread if you wish to argue about this. Don't hijack this one.

Of course I am aware that it existed, and there are others including ones from Romans that exist, as for starting up a thread I don't think I will bother as I don't really want to listen to a bunch of know it all's tell me shit, I will take my info on whether Jesus was a real person or not from Historians and other people in the profession who deal with secular recordings of Jesus of Nazareth and if he was a real man. He was by the way of course if he was the son of God well as I said that is another matter entirely.

But I will take your advice and yes it does take away from the OP and will no longer threadjack this argument (which was never my intention)

I don't think Jesus needs us to wonder why God doesn't heal an amputee as much as follow his teachings. And I'm saying this truthfully.
I don't really understand that I think. Afterall, the teachings of Jesus involve God, and since when can't we question certain things? Amputees are 1 thing though, I've got even more to do with people dying, begging God from the deepest of there hearts to not let them die, and then they die.
But, I don't know if this has been brought forth before, but this discussion only applies to a certain godly-image, and there are hundreds of thousands, or even millions of different godly-images.

You know, as I looked over the OP I had some trouble deciding whether to take it seriously.

I mean, it's obvious that the intent isn't honest 2-way communication. In fact, the tone of the OP strongly implies that this individual is congratulating himself on what he believes is a ironclad airtight argument that's just guaranteed to convert any Christian who reads it carefully.

The problem is that it's based on a series of false assumptions and misunderstandings. The baseline assumption is that Christians are somehow self-delusional and never apply critical thinking skills to their religion, thus they're just a bunch of lemmings awaiting rescue by such a hero as this.

To the OP: You're making two critical assumptions that kill your argument.
1)Christians have never had these questions asked of them.
2)Christians have never asked themselves these questions.

Your second failed assumption is that because the conclusions they draw are different from yours, they are the ones in the wrong. (Which is arrogance.)

My background: I've been a Christian my whole life. I was Catholic for the first 24 years and I'm a Mormon now. I'm a graduate of the University of Maryland (Computer Science) and have education in a smattering of other areas.

Out of curiosity, since we're talking about peoples' levels of education, what's yours?

And I'll take your challenge because while I don't expect you to care much for my answers, there may be people reading the posts who find them useful.

Most answers are based upon the following concepts:

1)They're based on an ETERNAL perspective, not on the perspective of a single human lifetime, however long that might be.

So here is question 1: Why won't God heal amputees?

Why should He? Having lost an arm or a leg has no impact on the condition of the soul. Most people are blessed with 4 working limbs. Some are born without one or more of them, some lose one or more of them during their lifetime. Why did you specify amutees as opposed to, say, people with congenital defects such as blindness or various forms of retardation? Such cases HAVE been known to be healed through prayer.

Are you deliberately leaving out data that doesn't support your conclusion?

You said yourself that most doctors believe in miracles. Doctors, by definition, are some of the most highly educated people in our society. Have you asked yourself why they're not leading the charge on this question? Why aren't doctors all atheists? Why do you assume that they're all self-delusional?


So the second question is: Why are there so many starving people in our world?

Have you ever noticed that a people that are united and organized tend to solve such problems? Most of the devastating poverty in the world can be found in war zones or areas where there's little to no Government. Religion tends to be a unifying and organizing force. Places where the land is all but lifeless and barren still hold populations that are surviving if not thriving, and that's a direct benefit of their religion and thus, God. Since you specifically asked about Christians as opposed to Muslims, Hindi etc, then perhaps you'll show an example of a region where the people are both Christian and starving. Remember also to note that Christian churches and non profit groups frequently visit areas where the people are NOT necessarily Christian to bring food and medicine. Might this not be seen as an example of prayer being answered?

As for the poor within modern areas like the U.S. or Europe, there's really no reason to be starving with the emount of charity and Government assistance available in those areas. God works through people whenever possible, in order to encourage charitable behavior and promote a non-materialistic philosophy to those who are in a position to give. This serves a dual purpose.


Third question: Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people in the Bible? Look up these verses:

- Exodus 35:2 – God demands that we kill everyone who works on the Sabbath day.

- Deuteronomy 21:18-21 – God demands that we kill disobedient teenagers.

- Leviticus 20:13 – God demands the death of homosexuals.

- Deuteronomy 22:13-21 – God demands that we kill girls who are not virgins when they marry.



You're applying a very modernistic perspective to a culture well over 3,000 years old. In those days, concepts like rights, and the absolute value of life were primitive indeed, and had to be balanced against the survival of the group and the communal mentality. People who promoted behaviors that caused a disruption in the community threatened more than just people's sense of warmth and fuzziness. They threatened the communal bond and that bond was critical for survival. Every one of those verses was written by Moses during the time of the Exodus when the Israelites were on the move and living in some of the most desolate land in the world. It was a brutal period of human history and brutal measures had to be taken to survive. The survival of the community was of absolute importance in order to preserve the Chosen People that they might reach the Promised Land.

Again, when you look at it from an Eternal perspective...


Question 4: Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense?
- God did not create the world in 6 days 6,000 years ago like the Bible says.

- There was never a worldwide flood that covered Mt. Everest like the Bible says.

- Jonah did not live inside a fish's stomach for three days like the Bible says.

- God did not create Adam from a handful of dust like the Bible says.


Do you know what a parable is? A parable is a story meant to teach a moral lesson. A large portion of the Bible is exactly that: parables.

Yes, I know a lot of people take literally the stories of Jonah and all that, but meh.

And as for the Creation story and the Flood, nobody, not even you, gets to claim an absolute knowledge of the trith of them. Perfectly reputable scientists and archaeologists are still debating them.


Question 5: Why is God such a huge proponent of slavery in the Bible? Look up these Bible verses:

- Exodus 21:20-21 – God says that it is OK to own slaves, and it is also OK to beat them.

- Colossians 3:22-24 – Slaves need to obey their masters.

- Ephesians 6:5 – Slaves need to obey their masters just as they would obey Christ.

- 1 Peter 2:18 – Slaves need to obey their masters, even if their masters are harsh .


The Old Testament verse falls under the category above. The New Testament is all about humility. Ever heard of the phrase 'turn the other cheek?' Remember that the Roman Empire had legal slavery and that was a part of everyday life. A lot of people found themselves in that condition. Being a slave didn't prevent someone from being a Christian nor did it have any impact whatsoever on their soul, and so there was no need to start a slave revolt over the issue. This would have run counter to the teachings of Christianity. Meanwhile the Lord gradually changed society through Christianizing the Roman Empire until slavery dissolved.


Question 6: Why do bad things happen to good people?


No exotic reason is necessary. Bad things happen to good people because people have free will. That means bad people will do bad things to good people. It means good people can choose to do bad things to themselves. It means that even things that aren't anybody's fault like disease or accident will happen but if a person's faith is strong and they keep their Eternal perspective then there is no illness or natural disaster that can harm the soul.


Question 7: Why didn't any of Jesus' miracles in the Bible leave behind any evidence?

Why would they need to? Jesus did not perform miracles to prove anything. If proof was His aim, He could have done it at much more dramatic instances like at the time of His execution or as He rode into Jerusalem on the mule. He healed the sick when they asked it of Him. He restored the blind to sight by means of THEIR OWN FAITH not to do a show.

(Unlike televangelists, I know.)


Question 8: How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you?

You make a false assumption.

Why would that be necessary at any rate? If I call you on the phone and we talk awhile you do not require me to appear personally at your front door to know that I do, in fact, extst.

Unless you're saying that you only believe in the existence of people whom you've met personally.


Question 9 – Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood?

I know that in Catholicism the bread and wine are considered to be literal transformations into the body and blood of Christ. This is not common among all Christian groups. In the Mormon church we use bread and water to symbolize the commitment made by each member who partakes of them to follow Christ. (Essentially, a renewal of Baptismal covenants) in recognition of His sacrifice. This pattern is after the Last Supper.


And finally, Question 10 – Why do Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians?

Again, free will.


So, we have looked at 10 fascinating questions. In order to believe in God, you have had to create all sorts of strange rationalizations and excuses. If you are an intelligent, college-educated person, all of these excuses and rationalizations probably make you uncomfortable. If you think about it honestly, using the critical thinking skills that you learned in college, you have to admit that your answers to these questions make no sense at all.


Actually, we've looked at 10 questions which are not meant, by you, to be thought about in depth. You want people to merely accept the conclusions you yourself have already drawn about them. I'm curious as to whether you'll give them any further thought in terms of my replies. Th eonus is now on you to show whether you really are fascinated by them, or if your choice of words was simple hyperbole.


Now, let me show you something remarkable. What if you instead assume that God is imaginary? A funny thing happens: the answers to every one of these questions make complete sense. Just look at all ten questions as an intelligent person:

Assuming you ignore the rammifications.


1) Why won't God heal amputees? Because God is imaginary, and he doesn't answer any prayers. Every "answered prayer" is actually a coincidence. All scientific evidence supports this conclusion.


Which now leaves you in a position to have to explain those cases, acknowledged by the very doctors you, yourself, cited, in which miraculous healing takes place. Since you've rejected a supernatural basis, you can't ground your reasoning in fantasy as you accuse Christians of doing.


2) Why are there so many starving people in our world? Because God is imaginary, and he is therefore unable to answer their prayers.


...predicated on the assumption that God would have to be bound to answer all prayers in all cases at all times.

Ever seen 'Bruce Almighty?' It was a silly movie but did have a profound message. Did you catch it?


3) Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people in the Bible? Because God is imaginary, and the Bible was written by ridiculous, ruthless men rather than any sort of loving being.


Then you must now account for that religion culminating in a New Testament figure whose message of peace and love has lasted 2,000 years and spread to all 7 continents.


4) Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense? Ditto. Primitive men wrote the bible, not an all-knowing being.


Assuming that 1)Your scientific conclusions have now reached th every pinnacle of possible knowledge (I guess we can stop bothering to study Evolution and the formation of the Earth then) and 2)Every Bibical story is intended to be read as literal history.


5) Why is God such a huge proponent of slavery? Ditto.


He's not. I bet y ou're one of those guys who accuses Christians of distoring scripture so that it says what they want it to say. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black...


6) Why do bad things happen to good people? Because God is imaginary and bad things happen at the same statistical rates to everyone.


Would you prefer to be a marionette?


7) Why didn't any of Jesus' miracles in the Bible leave behind any evidence? Because God is imaginary, and Jesus' miracles are myths.


Assuming His intent was to leave evidence.


8) How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you? Because God is imaginary.


I've never appeared to you, either. Am I, therefore, imaginary?


9) Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood? Because God is imaginary, and this bizarre ritual came from a pagan religion.


Thats' an awful lot of conclusion for so little premise.


10) Why do Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians? Because God is imaginary.

I'd be interested in seeing the chain of reasoning that leads you to conclude that somehow divorce rate is linked to divine existence.

(Mind you, that's assuming your statistic is accurate, which I do not accept. I answered for the sake of argument. I know for a fact that Christians divorce less frequently than the national average, and Mormons lower still. I would expect Catholic divorce rate to also be low.)


Do you see what has happened here? When we assume that God exists, the answers to these ten questions make absolutely no sense. But if we assume that God is imaginary, our world makes complete sense.

The problem is you're merely trading one set of assumptions for another.


It matters because people who believe in imaginary beings are delusional.

It matters because people who talk to imaginary beings are delusional.

It matters because people who believe in imaginary superstitions like prayer are delusional.


That's the vast majority of the world's population. Are you sure you want to run with that?


You are a smart person. It is time for you to use your intelligence to free yourself from these delusions. It is time for you to begin thinking like a rational human being, rather than clinging to imaginary friends and childhood fantasies.


A lecture? Hmm.... If I weigh the source of that lecture against the source of the wisdom I've received from people whom I respect and admire over the years...

I don't really understand that I think. Afterall, the teachings of Jesus involve God, and since when can't we question certain things? Amputees are 1 thing though, I've got even more to do with people dying, begging God from the deepest of there hearts to not let them die, and then they die.
But, I don't know if this has been brought forth before, but this discussion only applies to a certain godly-image, and there are hundreds of thousands, or even millions of different godly-images.

We can question and protest. But people expect God to resolve everything. Why can't He heal an amputee? Simple, this person suffered from a malady and his/her leg, hand, arm had to be removed on account of this malady.

Can He heal him/her? Yes. I believe He can. But I believe he also lets us fend for ourselves, if it so happens He's out there somewhere. I'm not particularly religious, I think of myself as an agnostic. But once again Jesus's teachings do not require us to question something as not healing a sick person. And even when it's true his teachings involve God, it's not about Him only. It's also about us.

Yes, it was.

I concur.

Again, amputees are 1 thing, but even then the world is simply deeply un-fair. We are sitting comfortably in a heated house with food, healthcare etc. We got that ourselfs, o yes, by means who lots of times can't even witniss daylight. We have destroyed many parts of the world, sucked country's dry so we could get rich, and rich we got! But instead of ús suffering the consequences of those terrible terrible things, completly innocent people who have nothing to do with us have to suffer terribly resulting in things like this: http://www.hoslink.com/medical_images/Starving_child_carried.jpg
And while those kids die before they reach puberity, we are fattening ourselfs. Really, amputees isn't what it's about.

Again, amputees are 1 thing, but even then the world is simply deeply un-fair. We are sitting comfortably in a heated house with food, healthcare etc. We got that ourselfs, o yes, by means who lots of times can't even witniss daylight. We have destroyed many parts of the world, sucked country's dry so we could get rich, and rich we got! But instead of ús suffering the consequences of those terrible terrible things we did, completly innocent people who have nothing to do with the things we did (apart from there forfathers be the direct victims of those actions) have to suffer terribly, I could show pictures but that would be inappropriate.
And while those kids die before they reach puberity, we are fattening ourselfs. Really, amputees isn't what it's about. One could say "It's to teach us a lesson.". But really, as you can see, it's not learning us anything, nor is it just to try to learn us something by letting innocents suffer instead of of us. And we're not júst getting away with it, hell we're flourising because of them! And I'm not saying God caused it, I'm only saying he allows it to happen. It's contradictory to some properties people give to "God".
Note: This is again against just 1 type of god, there are millions of types of gods.

PS @ Nanatsu no Tsuki: Again, amputees are 1 thing. So that god could heal people, but clearly he isn't. So we are left to fend for ourselfs, well what about my classmate he will die in the near future of a muscle-desease he is born with, why why is he allowed to suffer, what justifies such a punishment?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy

Because the Bible was written by ruthless men rather than any sort of loving being.



I Don't believe in god or any of that really. But this person was entirely correct. Check your history books and you will find the bible was created by a council of cardinals during the renaissance. The books were chosen, modified and assembled into the bible during a meeting. Some time in the 1400's I think. I don't have access to my book atm. It really isn't any use to reference the bible as an accurate source because it was created by man.
Religion is by its very nature abstract and you can't reliably cite anything as proof weather an aspect of any religion is true or false.

I don't think I will bother as I don't really want to listen to a bunch of know it all's tell me shit
I apologize in advance for taking this quote out of context, but with such attitude, what are you doing on NSG? ;)

PS @ Nanatsu no Tsuki: Again, amputees are 1 thing. So that god could heal people, but clearly he isn't. So we are left to fend for ourselfs, well what about my classmate he will die in the near future of a muscle-desease he is born with, why why is he allowed to suffer, what justifies such a punishment?

I don't have an answer for you, GD. I don't understand why some people come to this world to carry a heavy burden like your friend does. Also, I'm not presumptuous enough to think that I have to understand those designs. I'm sorry your friend's sick. And I understand that you feel you need to question. All I can say is such is life.

If you are an educated Christian, I would like to talk with you today about an important and interesting question. Have you ever thought about using your college education to think about your faith? Your life and your career demand that you behave and act rationally. Let's apply your critical thinking skills as we discuss 10 simple questions about your religion.

Here is an example of the kind of thing I am talking about: As a Christian, you believe in the power of prayer. According to a recent poll (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42061), 3 out of 4 doctors believe that God is performing medical miracles on earth right now. Most Christians believe that God is curing cancers, healing diseases, reversing the effects of poisons and so on.

So here is question 1: Why won't God heal amputees?

It's a simple question, isn't it? We all know that amputated legs do not spontaneously regenerate in response to prayer. Amputees get no miracles from God.

If you are an intelligent person, you have to admit that it's an interesting question On the one hand, you believe that God answers prayers and performs miracles. On the other hand, you know that God completely ignores amputees when they pray for miracles.

How do you deal with this discrepancy? As an intelligent person, you have to deal with it, because it makes no sense. In order to handle it, notice that you have to create some kind of rationalization. You have to invent an excuse on God's behalf to explain this strange fact of life. You might say, "well, God must have some kind of special plan for amputees." So you invent your excuse, whatever it is, and then you stop thinking about it because it is uncomfortable.

Here is another example. As a Christian, you believe that God cares about you and answers your prayers.

So the second question is: Why are there so many starving people in our world?

Look out at our world and notice that millions of children are dying of starvation. It really is horrific. Why would God be worried about you getting a raise, while at the same time ignoring the prayers of these desperate, innocent little children? It really doesn't make any sense, does it? Why would a loving god do this?

To explain it, you have to come up with some sort of very strange excuse for God. Like, "God wants these children to suffer and die for some divine, mysterious reason." Then you push it out of your mind because it absolutely does not fit with your view of a loving, caring God.

Third question: Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people in the Bible? Look up these verses:

- Exodus 35:2 – God demands that we kill everyone who works on the Sabbath day.

- Deuteronomy 21:18-21 – God demands that we kill disobedient teenagers.

- Leviticus 20:13 – God demands the death of homosexuals.

- Deuteronomy 22:13-21 – God demands that we kill girls who are not virgins when they marry.

And so on… There are lots of verses like these.

It doesn't make any sense, does it? Why would a loving God want us to murder our fellow human beings over such trivial matters? Just because you work on the wrong day of the week, you must die? That makes no sense, does it? In fact, if you think about it, you realize that it is insane. So you create some kind of rationalization to explain these verses.

Question 4: Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense? You have a college degree, so you know what I'm talking about. You know how science works. You happily use the products of science every day: your car, your cell phone, your microwave oven, your TV, your computer. These are all products of the scientific process. You know that science is incredibly important to our economy and to our lives.

But there is a problem. As an educated person you know that the Bible contains all sorts of information that is total nonsense from a scientific perspective.

- God did not create the world in 6 days 6,000 years ago like the Bible says.

- There was never a worldwide flood that covered Mt. Everest like the Bible says.

- Jonah did not live inside a fish's stomach for three days like the Bible says.

- God did not create Adam from a handful of dust like the Bible says.

These stories are all nonsense. Why would an all-knowing God write nonsense? It makes no sense, does it? So you create some type of very strange excuse to try to explain why the Bible contains total nonsense.

Question 5: Why is God such a huge proponent of slavery in the Bible? Look up these Bible verses:

- Exodus 21:20-21 – God says that it is OK to own slaves, and it is also OK to beat them.

- Colossians 3:22-24 – Slaves need to obey their masters.

- Ephesians 6:5 – Slaves need to obey their masters just as they would obey Christ.

- 1 Peter 2:18 – Slaves need to obey their masters, even if their masters are harsh .

And so on…

And why do all intelligent people abhor slavery and make it completely illegal? You have to come up with some kind of weird rationalization to explain it.

Question 6: Why do bad things happen to good people? That makes no sense. You have created an exotic excuse on God's behalf to rationalize it.

Question 7: Why didn't any of Jesus' miracles in the Bible leave behind any evidence? It's very strange, isn't it? You have created an excuse to rationalize it.

Question 8: How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you? Jesus is all-powerful and timeless, but if you pray for Jesus to appear, nothing happens. You have to create a weird rationalization to deal with this discrepancy.

Question 9 – Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood? It sounds totally grotesque, doesn't it? Why would al all-powerful God want you to do something that, in any other context, sounds like a disgusting, cannibalistic, satanic ritual?

And finally, Question 10 – Why do Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians? Christians get married in front of God and their Christian friends, all of whom are praying to God for the marriage to succeed. And then they say, "What God has put together, let no man put asunder." God is all-powerful, so if God has put two people together that should seal the deal, right? Yet Christians get divorced at the same rate as everyone else. To explain this, you have to create some convoluted rationalization.

So, we have looked at 10 fascinating questions. In order to believe in God, you have had to create all sorts of strange rationalizations and excuses. If you are an intelligent, college-educated person, all of these excuses and rationalizations probably make you uncomfortable. If you think about it honestly, using the critical thinking skills that you learned in college, you have to admit that your answers to these questions make no sense at all.

Now, let me show you something remarkable. What if you instead assume that God is imaginary? A funny thing happens: the answers to every one of these questions make complete sense. Just look at all ten questions as an intelligent person:

1) Why won't God heal amputees? Because God is imaginary, and he doesn't answer any prayers. Every "answered prayer" is actually a coincidence. All scientific evidence supports this conclusion.

2) Why are there so many starving people in our world? Because God is imaginary, and he is therefore unable to answer their prayers.

3) Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people in the Bible? Because God is imaginary, and the Bible was written by ridiculous, ruthless men rather than any sort of loving being.

4) Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense? Ditto. Primitive men wrote the bible, not an all-knowing being.

5) Why is God such a huge proponent of slavery? Ditto.

6) Why do bad things happen to good people? Because God is imaginary and bad things happen at the same statistical rates to everyone.

7) Why didn't any of Jesus' miracles in the Bible leave behind any evidence? Because God is imaginary, and Jesus' miracles are myths.

8) How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you? Because God is imaginary.

9) Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood? Because God is imaginary, and this bizarre ritual came from a pagan religion.

10) Why do Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians? Because God is imaginary.

Do you see what has happened here? When we assume that God exists, the answers to these ten questions make absolutely no sense. But if we assume that God is imaginary, our world makes complete sense.

It's interesting, isn't it? Actually, it's more than interesting – it is incredibly important.

Our world only makes sense when we understand that God is imaginary.

This is how intelligent, rational people know that God is imaginary.

When you use your brain, and when you think logically about your religious faith, you can reach only one possible conclusion: the "god" that you have heard about since you were an infant is completely imaginary. You have to willfully discard rationality, and accept hundreds of bizarre rationalizations to believe in your "god."

Now, let me ask you one last question: Why should you care? What difference does it make if people want to believe in a "god", even if he is imaginary?

It matters because people who believe in imaginary beings are delusional.

It matters because people who talk to imaginary beings are delusional.

It matters because people who believe in imaginary superstitions like prayer are delusional.

It's that simple, and that obvious. Your religious beliefs hurt you personally and hurt us as a species because they are delusional. The belief in any "god" is complete nonsense.

You are a smart person. It is time for you to use your intelligence to free yourself from these delusions. It is time for you to begin thinking like a rational human being, rather than clinging to imaginary friends and childhood fantasies.


http://GodIsImaginary.com

http://WhyWontGodHealAmputees.com

http://img486.imageshack.us/img486/9695/owltrouble1rq.jpg

To say that this thread will be interesting to watch (at least, for a little bit), will be an understatement. I think it will eventually be locked, though.

Yes, there is a logical contradiction with an omniscient being and the existence of free will.

There are several solutions to this.


You can assume that god is such a crazy ass being that he can do paradoxical and illogical things. But this sounds alot like 'don't worry your pretty little head about it', so I don't like this one.
You can assume that god is omniscient but deliberately chooses to be (at least partially) ignorant of the future so that it may remain full of potentiality.
You can assume that god is not an omniscient being.


I like the simplicity of the third one, but I have no other reason for preferring that belief.

Or you can understand how time works and that potential closes down after an event occurs whether omniscience exists or not. Nah, that would be downright logical.

Or you can understand how time works and that potential closes down after an event occurs whether omniscience exists or not. Nah, that would be downright logical.

Explain.

I apologize in advance for taking this quote out of context, but with such attitude, what are you doing on NSG? ;)

ha ha yes indeed. there are two ways to respond to this, one I am a know it all trying to tell people shit ;) or I don't mind debating with people but when you know something to be true why bother about it. It would be like you trying to deny to debate with me that gravity doesnt exist, with that I would not bother with joining the debate I will just sigh and say believe what you want to believe I don't really care, however, if you decided to debate with me the appropriate way a government should attempt to run its economy and what areas it should focus on then I will debate it and listen to your responses and give my rebuttal or even change my mind and side with you. That is the difference and why I don't mind coming on NSG.

I don't have an answer for you, GD. I don't understand why some people come to this world to carry a heavy burden like your friend does. Also, I'm not presumptuous enough to think that I have to understand those designs. I'm sorry your friend's sick. And I understand that you feel you need to question. All I can say is such is life.
No problem, and thanks for your compasion. Anyway, I also accept that it's just life, that there isn't even a clue to think there is a reason why it happens at all. The only problem I have with it, is that it's contradictory with certain properties some people apply on there image of the word "God".

Explain.

How about an example? What's the potential for the outcome of the civil war (in the US) to be that the South won?

No problem, and thanks for your compasion. Anyway, I also accept that it's just life, that there isn't even a clue to think there is a reason why it happens at all. The only problem I have with it, is that it's contradictory with certain properties some people apply on there image of the word "God".

You're welcome.

Yes, there is a logical contradiction with an omniscient being and the existence of free will.
Perhaps the free will we have changes the God and the universe to encompass our choice? Until that point in time God knows I choose A, after that point – that I choose B. Is encompassing two contradictory states too much to ask from omnipotent being?

How about an example? What's the potential for the outcome of the civil war (in the US) to be that the South won?

Okay, so we have an event, and we know the potential for that outcome is 100% after the event occurs.

I don't see how this has anything to do with my post.

Okay, so we have an event, and we know the potential for that outcome is 100% after the event occurs.

I don't see how this has anything to do with my post.

It does. Because a being that exists outside of time would not be bound to knowing the outcome before it happened. It's not predective. It's an outcome. We tend to limit our thinking to time because we're wired that way.

Because of that, though, free will doesn't exist or it's impossible for anything to exist outside of time or the existence of something that can recognize the 100% outcome after it occurs doesn't matter. The options aren't the options you offered but three entirely different options.

(There's also the school of thought that every possible outcome does occur and an omniscient being would just simultaneously exist in every outcome. It doesn't change the argument, though, since there is still only one outcome in each timeline.)

1) Why won't God heal amputees? From a scientific point of view, God already did - they're called artificial limbs. You can say God did that or you can say that our top medical researchers did - one may argue that God is working through medical researchers. All I know is that, in this world, if I'm God, I would want to stay pretty behind the scenes and work through researchers rather than heal their limbs myself.

2) Why are there so many starving people in our world? Because people have made it that way. Leaders starve their people as a means of control. It's pretty effective, actually, and even the existence of God can't trump the "human nature" card.

3) Why does God demand the death of so many innocent people in the Bible? In the Bible days, people had different moralities. If the Bible were written today, somehow I doubt that there would be so much violence in it, especially not condoned by God.

4) Why does the Bible contain so much anti-scientific nonsense? It was written before anyone had this concept of "evolution" or "the Big Bang." People didn't know how it all began, so they made something up that fit with their belief system. When science developed evolution and the Big Bang, the Bible was so ingrained in people's minds that it was, and still is, hard to accept.

5) Why is God such a huge proponent of slavery? Because slavery was practiced the world over in those days. If the Bible were written today, slavery wouldn't even be mentioned.

6) Why do bad things happen to good people? Bad things happen to everyone. People die. People get hurt. People inflict pain and suffering onto other people. It's human nature.

7) Why didn't any of Jesus' miracles in the Bible leave behind any evidence? I dunno. Really. I don't have an answer.

8) How do we explain the fact that Jesus has never appeared to you? In the form we know him in, he's been gone for 2,000 years. Has Jesus appeared to me in another form? Couldn't tell you.

9) Why would Jesus want you to eat his body and drink his blood? That's baffled me, too, considering the New Testament has a prohibition against drinking blood (that was given by Jesus himself.) Perhaps Jesus made an exception beforeh is death.

10) Why do Christians get divorced at the same rate as non-Christians? Again, human nature. People have clever loopholes like "annulment" and such, but it boils down to this - humans aren't necessarily programmed to be monogamous or stay married for life. Social engineering can only go so far, especially in a world where people live a lot longer.