NationStates Jolt Archive

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2008/04/mind_decision

Proof you have little to no control over your own brain.

My brain has a mind of it's own. *nod*

This doesn't mean a whole lot in regard to free will. That kind of decision is so simple that it would be very wasteful for the brain to expend the significant energy and cognitive capacity to actually consciously think it out and plan it. I see the button, I already know what I'm supposed to do, there are no significant external factors to take in to account, and so the brain does the work and makes the decision without involving immediate conscious processes.

Now, if they can predict someone's vote in an election or their next big decision I might inclined to believe that there's something more to this than the brain being efficient.

This doesn't mean a whole lot in regard to free will. That kind of decision is so simple that it would be very wasteful for the brain to expend the significant energy and cognitive capacity to actually consciously think it out and plan it. I see the button, I already know what I'm supposed to do, there are no significant external factors to take in to account, and so the brain does the work and makes the decision without involving immediate conscious processes.

Now, if they can predict someone's vote in an election or their next big decision I might inclined to believe that there's something more to this than the brain being efficient.

I don't see how this hinders the idea of free will at all.

For all we know "they" still made a decision, but their awareness has a delay. Essentially, if free will is true, it probably comes into effect prior to any output seen, otherwise that free will has to be that output i.e free will happens before the MRI scan picks up anything, or at the same time. Awareness is when it hits the part of the brain that tells the conscious what's going on.

That assumes humans are any more aware than a rock, but everyone seems to think they are so I'll run with it.

You may think you decided to read this story -- but in fact, your brain made the decision long before you knew about it.

Yes, my brain decided to read an article it didn't know existed until I actually clicked on the link and saw it. For sure.

Yes, my brain decided to read an article it didn't know existed until I actually clicked on the link and saw it. For sure.

So clairvoyance is real...God, James Randi's going to shit a brick.

But I AM my brain, my personality is formed by the synapses and chemical and physical processes in my brain. I have full control over my brain since the two are the same. (this might not be conscious control, but why should my subconscience be something not-me)

Surely you are controlled by your own brain? It is your thinky-centre after all.

http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/2008/04/mind_decision

It's pretty cool that they can detect brain activity with such precision, but the existential questions that it raises are a bit silly. It talks about the brain as though it is somehow separate from you and your thinking process.

When I was 6 one of my elementary school classmates attempted to diminish the credit I was due for an idea by responding, "but you didn't think it, it was your brain."

I told him the same thing I'd tell this writer. "You're an idiot."

erm basically your subconcious makes the vast majority of choices regarding your actions.
Your concious reacts to these choices and thereby modifies how the subconcious will react next time.
Free will is essentially an illusion, but we all knew that anyway.

It's pretty cool that they can detect brain activity with such precision, but the existential questions that it raises are a bit silly. It talks about the brain as though it is somehow separate from you and your thinking process.

When I was 6 one of my elementary school classmates attempted to diminish the credit I was due for an idea by responding, "but you didn't think it, it was your brain."

I told him the same thing I'd tell this writer. "You're an idiot."

it's about your ability to choose. When you think that you're deciding what to do, and you have free will about what choice you will make, really your subconcious has already chosen.

it's not that your brain is seperate. but your subconcious is. or rather, its seperate from the part of the brain where thought process run, the 'voice in your head' that you think of as you. that you think makes choices. ..... *ominous music*

it's about your ability to choose. When you think that you're deciding what to do, and you have free will about what choice you will make, really your subconcious has already chosen.

it's not that your brain is seperate. but your subconcious is. or rather, its seperate from the part of the brain where thought process run, the 'voice in your head' that you think of as you. that you think makes choices. ..... *ominous music*

But that's only for the simple things, as has been mentioned. More complex decisions are still unproven.

And then ancient parasites start affecting your behavior and this (http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn289/RhynoD2/Renalaugh.gif) happens.

And then everybody dies.

So if i don't control my actions, who does?

So I'm free from responsibility? Awesome!

*puts up feet*

So I'm free from responsibility? Awesome!

*puts up feet*

No worries, you were already irresponsible. :p

No worries, you were already irresponsible. :p

Yeah, but now I got a reason!:D

Yeah, but now I got a reason!:D

No, now you have an excuse...
;)

You choose something, then it happens. This was already common knowledge, I don't see how it is supposed to disprove free will.

No, now you have an excuse...
;)

Take all grievances to my brain, please.

Take all grievances to my brain, please.

*takes Troglobites' brain*

*takes Troglobites' brain*

I won't miss it. Just... leave the stem.

So I'm free from responsibility? Awesome!

*puts up feet*

I'm afraid you can't do that. You don't have the free will to put your feet up.
You're going to have to wait until you can effect your subconcious enough to make it think it's a good idea to laze around and not do anything except go on nsg......... oh wait.......

I won't miss it. Just... leave the stem.

*takes brain stem also*

I'm afraid you can't do that. You don't have the free will to put your feet up.
You're going to have to wait until you can effect your subconcious enough to make it think it's a good idea to laze around and not do anything except go on nsg......... oh wait.......

My post count is relatively low for someone who has been here so long, no?

*takes brain stem also*

dAMn YOu.... aSs.... jerK.

dAMn YOu.... aSs.... jerK.

:D

I think the point of the article is that all your thoughts and actions are only a result of predetermined programming and chemical response to outside stimuli. So the illusion that you are a separate entity with the free will to control your fate is false. I'm not totally convinced this is true but it's interesting to think about.

I highly recommend people read Daniel Dennett's Consciousness Explained which discusses this type of experiement and offers a theory on how the mind works.

He contends that the human brain is equivalent to a parallel computer where many processes are taking place simultaneously. As a result, many decisions are being made by different sections of the brain. There is no "controlling section", no "I". Our consciousness is a narrative which keeps track of the processes after they take place.

My response to this is the same as it always is: Even if choice is an illusion, it's an illusion I've no choice but to believe in.

I highly recommend people read Daniel Dennett's Consciousness Explained which discusses this type of experiement and offers a theory on how the mind works.

He contends that the human brain is equivalent to a parallel computer where many processes are taking place simultaneously. As a result, many decisions are being made by different sections of the brain. There is no "controlling section", no "I". Our consciousness is a narrative which keeps track of the processes after they take place.That's an interesting theory. I'll look at the book.

I think the point of the article is that all your thoughts and actions are only a result of predetermined programming and chemical response to outside stimuli. So the illusion that you are a separate entity with the free will to control your fate is false. I'm not totally convinced this is true but it's interesting to think about.

Of course it is. You have to keep things in perspective. You, as an individual, have all the free will and choices you can ask for. However, in looking at the brain, you are looking at the mechanisms that make you function as an individual. Yes, a lot is pre-determined, but it is pre-determined by YOU. By what you are, what you know, what you've experienced, how your brain grew and by the blueprints according to which it grew. The sum of that makes decisions, and that is, at the end of the day, you.

To assume that you are not bound by experience and biology would mean that you are not in fact your body, but something outside of it. It would mean that your free will is not situated in your brain, but somewhere on the outside where it cannot be influenced by anything, and that it has total control over what goes on in your body...