NationStates Jolt Archive

i have a another (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=541498) geographical question that only NSG can answer.

what USian states make up the south? are the borders of the south moving? are there some states that are only partially in the south? and who the fuck does missouri think it is fooling?

well?

like last time, there will be a poll later where we will decide once and for all.

All the states that seceded?

I'm from the south so I should know. States that make up the south include Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, Louisiana, some parts of texas, the carolinas, tennesee, kentucky, arkansas, virginia maybe. And no, I don't consider missouri to be part of the south.

Only Alaska.

Though Hawaii becomes a southern state every fourth Thursday.

I don't think there's any universally accepted list, but I'd include Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, the Carolinas, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, Louisiana, Oklahoma and Texas.

Also Indiana, because seriously, what the hell is Indiana's problem?

I'm from the south so I should know. States that make up the south include Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, Louisiana, some parts of texas, the carolinas, tennesee, kentucky, arkansas, virginia maybe. And no, I don't consider missouri to be part of the south.

I'm also from the south, and I agree with this. I think the South is interesting in that it is as much a geographical location as a cultural idea. Many people might not consider Florida to be a "Southern" state despite its location. Likewise with Texas, parts of Virginia, and Maryland.

the South?

*points in a random direction*

Over there.

All the states that seceded?

what about border states that probably would have except for the federal troops all over the place, like maryland?

South of the Mason-Dixon line = The South. That is why they had to make a damn line.

what about border states that probably would have except for the federal troops all over the place, like maryland?

Not Southern. They didn't experience Reconstruction, and Maryland at least ended up abolishing slavery of its own accord.

Florida is NOT part of the south. No, it isn't.

All states that seceded from the Union, minus Florida.

Kentucky held slaves, did not secede, did not experience reconstruction, but I would still consider it very much a southern state. Uncle Tom's Cabin is set in Kentucky.

The former Confederacy, except for Florida & Texas. Texas is its own region. Florida has too many northerners to be part of the South.

Without any doubt Southern are the eleven States that seceded: South Carolina, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Texas, Virginia, Arkansas, North Carolina, and Tennessee.

Other states might have seceded if Federal troops had not occupied them early on. Opinions differ on whether they are Southern states or not, but they certainly have significant ties to Southern culture: Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland, and the Oklahoma Territory. Note that Mark Twain briefly signed up with the Confederate Army - in a Missourian unit.

In addition, other states had large portions of the population sympathetic to the Confederate cause. Mostly they were border states: Delaware, Ohio, Indiana, and Illinois - also New York City, where there were pro-Confederate riots. Of these, only Delaware might be considered a part of the South, and it usually is not. Parts of Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Michigan are culturally Southern, though these states have never been considered Southern.

To make things even more confusing, Texas is considered both a part of the South, and the beginning of the Southwest. It is pretty solidly in both blocks, but sometimes people who don't want their blocks to overlap will arbitrarily put it in one or the other.

Many of the Southwestern states have strong cultural ties to the South, as do Oregon and Washington, which both have a pretty even north-south mix (Northerners arriving there overland, Southerners by ship). Vermont and New Hampshire have a significant Scots-Irish population, which makes it demographically similar to many Southern states, and this shows up in some aspects of culture - but the differences are also pretty large.

West Virginia seceded from Virginia, when Virginia seceded from the Union. As a result, West Virginia is an orphan state not claimed by the South OR the North, and is the subject of many jokes.

Clear as mud, now?

Anywhere 'Y'all' is used daily and not in an ironic sense.

Anywhere 'Y'all' is used daily and not in an ironic sense.

I abandon my previous stance and agree with yours.

Anywhere 'Y'all' is used daily and not in an ironic sense.

QFT.

Why can't all regions just define themselves as New England has? 6 states, always. No more, no less. It will always be CT, RI, MA, VT, NH, ME

I usually divide "the south" into two sub-regions...the deep south, which includes Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, and the upper south, which is Tenneessee, Kentucky, North Carolina, Virginia, Arkansas. Texas may sometimes sneak in, but I think they are a very different culture overall, and Florida will be included for geographical discussion, but not cultural.

i'm having trouble figuring out a good way to cluster states for options in a 10 option poll.

halp?

Why can't all regions just define themselves as New England has? 6 states, always. No more, no less. It will always be CT, RI, MA, VT, NH, ME

*plots northern maine separatist movement*

All the states south of the Manson-Nixon line. *nod*

Why can't all regions just define themselves as New England has? 6 states, always. No more, no less. It will always be CT, RI, MA, VT, NH, ME

I usually divide "the south" into two sub-regions...the deep south, which includes Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, and the upper south, which is Tenneessee, Kentucky, North Carolina, Virginia, Arkansas. Texas may sometimes sneak in, but I think they are a very different culture overall, and Florida will be included for geographical discussion, but not cultural.

Texas is southwest and Oklahoma is a plains state. *nod*

i'm having trouble figuring out a good way to cluster states for options in a 10 option poll.

halp?
Which do you consider part of the South?
Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina
North Carolina & Virginia
Maryland & Delaware
Kentucky & West Virginia
Arkansas & Tennessee
Missouri
Texas
Florida
option 9
We will buy pudding

and who the fuck does missouri think it is fooling?

Missouri isn't in the South, geographically or culturally. We are very definitely Midwestern. Southeastern Missouri, being right next door to the South, definitely contains significant elements of Southern culture, but you'll see very little trace of that influence anywhere in the northern half of the state. (Ozarks culture is also a distinct entity unto itself, actually bearing more resemblance in many ways to Appalachian culture than to either Midwestern or Southern culture.)

But, let's put it simply: throughout most of Missouri, we drink pop (or soda if and only if you're in St. Louis, because St. Louis thinks it's New England), not Coke; our houses have porches, not verandas; we speak newscaster-English without a drawl; and no one ever says "y'all" except in jest. We're Midwesterners. :)

We are very definitely Midwestern.

NSG declared otherwise. maybe you'd like to take a stab at being a pacific northwest state?

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2803/nsmweu3.gif

Anywhere south of Springfield IL is "the south".

I'm also from the south, and I agree with this. I think the South is interesting in that it is as much a geographical location as a cultural idea. Many people might not consider Florida to be a "Southern" state despite its location. Likewise with Texas, parts of Virginia, and Maryland.

Only the northern part of Florida is Southern. Once you get past Gainesville or Ocala, you're back in the New York, New Jersey northeast, again.

And all of the panhandle is Southern. We just call it LA -- Lower Alabama.

Which do you consider part of the South?
Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina
North Carolina & Virginia
Maryland & Delaware
Kentucky & West Virginia
Arkansas & Tennessee
Missouri
Texas
Florida
option 9
We will buy pudding

i'm just worried about &-ing some of those. maybe if i make option 9 be "i chose one or more of the & options but really wanted just one of the states in them"? but that seems complicated...

South Carolina, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, Texas, Virginia, Arkansas, North Carolina, Tennessee, Maryland, Kentucky, Mississippi, Arkansas

This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_United_States) should help.

NSG declared otherwise. maybe you'd like to take a stab at being a pacific northwest state?

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2803/nsmweu3.gif

Yeah...I'm going to go with actual Missourians over random internet peoples on this one. :p We're definitely Midwesterners. (Also, that map appears to be one of the ones which categorizes Kansas, Nebraska, et. al. as "plains states," which is one of those terms that is almost never used by actual residents of Kansas and Nebraska, most of whom also seem to consider themselves Midwesterners. It's at least a reasonable term to apply to KS and NE, though, since they are largely made up of plains - but MO isn't. Neither is it located at all in the south of the country, so there's no logical justification to call it Southern. It is, however, pretty unambiguously located in the middle of the country. Hence: Midwestern.)

Really, though, one could almost invent a special category just for Missouri - something like "microcosmic." Southeastern MO acts like the South, northwestern MO is truly Midwestern, St. Louis acts like New England, the Ozarks mimic Appalachia...all we need are some surfer dudes and we'd pretty much be a tiny version of the entire continental US. :)

i have a another (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=541498) geographical question that only NSG can answer.

what USian states make up the south? are the borders of the south moving? are there some states that are only partially in the south? and who the fuck does missouri think it is fooling?

well?

Stop fucking using "USian," it sounds fucking retarded. If you can't use just "American," you could do what some others on this forum do and use "USAmerican," which is a sort of compromise.

Anyway, to the question, the South can be defined a number of ways. One of the most common ways is to basically say that it's comprised of all states that seceded in the Civil War. Another is anything south of the Mason-Dixon line, and yet another is any state that was still a "slave state" at the time of the Civil War.

Then there's the "Deep South," which is a term I've never had explained to me, so I just take it to mean the shittiest part of the shittiest region of the USA.

i'm just worried about &-ing some of those. maybe if i make option 9 be "i chose one or more of the & options but really wanted just one of the states in them"? but that seems complicated...
They seemed inviting to be &-ing. WV and a huge part of KY are Appalachian; NC seems to have more in common with VA than SC. After all, VA & NC both extend from the Atlantic coast to the Appalachians, so there's some similarity between the two. As for AR & TN, they are a bit a stretch, but both have Mississippi valley areas & mountain areas (Ozarks & Blue Ridge Mtns.), LA, MS, AL, GA, and SC are Deep South. MD & DE, well you can take out Delaware from that.

AHA! How about this:
Enumeration: Which States are part of the American South?
1. _________________________
2. _________________________
3. _________________________
4. _________________________
5. _________________________
6. _________________________
7. _________________________
8. _________________________
9. _________________________
10. ________________________

Also, I think this map's divisions are pretty close to the ones I use:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Census_Regions_and_Divisions.PNG

The only particular disagreement I have is that I really think of Maryland, Delaware, and DC as being Mid-Atlantic and not Southern, but other than that, this looks about right.

Maryland is a border state, despite what many people say. And I know, I live in Mary's land:D

Then there's the "Deep South," which is a term I've never had explained to me, so I just take it to mean the shittiest part of the shittiest region of the USA.

The "Deep South" essentially refers to the regions that absolutely everyone agrees are part of the South, where Southern culture is not just prevalent but ubiquitous. So, for example, Birmingham is "Deep South," and Little Rock is not.

Really, though, one could almost invent a special category just for Missouri - something like "microcosmic." Southeastern MO acts like the South, northwestern MO is truly Midwestern, St. Louis acts like New England, the Ozarks mimic Appalachia...all we need are some surfer dudes and we'd pretty much be a tiny version of the entire continental US. :)
Why, there are no surfers on the Missouri River? :eek:

The "Deep South" essentially refers to the regions that absolutely everyone agrees are part of the South, where Southern culture is not just prevalent but ubiquitous. So, for example, Birmingham is "Deep South," and Little Rock is not.

Ah. Makes sense.

Why, there are no surfers on the Missouri River? :eek:

Well, I've never seen any, but I suppose they could only be surfing when I'm not around. :p

Well, I've never seen any, but I suppose they could only be surfing when I'm not around. :p
*surfs while Poliwanacraca is looking in another direction*

I still like the "y'all" definition.

They seemed inviting to be &-ing.

ok, i'll do it, but you are getting the blame when people want to have other splits.

ok, i'll do it, but you are getting the blame when people want to have other splits.
They cannot buy my pudding with blame. But y'all can buy my puddings with money. :p

EDIT: You didn't like the enumeration?

Yeah...I'm going to go with actual Missourians over random internet peoples on this one. :p We're definitely Midwesterners. (Also, that map appears to be one of the ones which categorizes Kansas, Nebraska, et. al. as "plains states," which is one of those terms that is almost never used by actual residents of Kansas and Nebraska, most of whom also seem to consider themselves Midwesterners.

hah, as if the people of those states have a say in such matters

Not Southern. They didn't experience Reconstruction, and Maryland at least ended up abolishing slavery of its own accord.

so is southerness entirely bound up with the historical experience of reconstruction? like even if northern cultures completely overwhelms the state?

The CSA thats prettymuch it, yeah South Florida is more Cubans and Retired New Yorkers, but Northern Florida's still full of rednecks, and West Texas is full of Mexicans but the Easter half is still Rednecks...

and thats prettymuch it...;)

To me, "The South" is all the states that fought on the Confederacy.

http://www.flacyclist.com/content/reports/2006/map_pac_south_2006.jpg

All US states are in the north hemisphere. All of them.

http://www.flacyclist.com/content/reports/2006/map_pac_south_2006.jpg

Western half seems about right, especially with the influx of southerners in the South West but the Eastern half is sorely mistaken about North Mississippi and Alabama and Norther Georgia, possibly minus Atlanta...

All US states are in the north hemisphere. All of them.

Are you always this way even in real life, or are you just so on NSG because you're faceless here?

I don't think I've ever seen you actually contribute to a discussion or debate.

Western half seems about right, especially with the influx of southerners in the South West but the Eastern half is sorely mistaken about North Mississippi and Alabama and Norther Georgia, possibly minus Atlanta...

I´m not even sure which states are consider part of the South. I always thought all the southern part of the US was considered the South, but then I was corrected by my ex-mother-in-law. Which states are considered part of the South?

This is what I consider the South because they were part of the Confederate States of America back in the Civil War.

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/b/bf/550px-Map_of_CSA_4.png

Also, CSA? Comon, they couldn't think up a cooler name?

anyplace that still considers the Confederate flag to be part of their "heretige" instead of a racist symbol is definately the South.

Are you always this way even in real life, or are you just so on NSG because you're faceless here?

I don't think I've ever seen you actually contribute to a discussion or debate.

Well, what is a discussion/debate to you anyway?

anywhere south of canadia

Well, what is a discussion/debate to you anyway?

Actually discussing the topic at hand instead of flamebaiting. This topic is about what states are considered "Southern U.S.", and you know that.

As for that, it's pretty much all states South of the Mason-Dixon Line, though some people have different definitions. The Census Bureau is the one people should put their trust in for this issue, since they, er, define the regions and all.

I'm pretty sure somebody had a link to that one a few posts back.

anywhere south of canadia

even Minnesota? :eek:

even Minnesota? :eek:

I'd argue that Maine has a more "Northern" feel than Minnesota, save for the weather.

anywhere south of canadia

Eh? (http://www.pigdog.org/categories/canadia_sucks.html)

Maryland, but not Delaware. Parts of the Florida panhandle maybe, but not most of the rest of it. Definitely not Missouri.

I'd argue that Maine has a more "Northern" feel than Minnesota, save for the weather.

i was always under the impression Minnesota had a Canada air about it... not that i've ever been there but still... :p

i was always under the impression Minnesota had a Canada air about it... not that i've ever been there but still... :p

Maybe the Northern extremity, but overall Minnesota is very American. If you want Canada in the USA, just go to the UP of Michigan. You'll see what I mean.

-snip-

Clear as mud, now?

Indeed a well done explanation.

Anywhere 'Y'all' is used daily and not in an ironic sense.

There's also the coke/soda/pop linguistic divide...

http://www.rwjonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/soda-pop.gif

Wow, all those people call soda by one brand name?

Wow, all those people call soda by one brand name?

That's common in California too, even if the map has it for soda. "Pop" is probably the most useful for placing a person, since there isn't as much crossover.

There's also the coke/soda/pop linguistic divide...


I'm really wondering what the "others" call it.

I'm really wondering what the "others" call it.

I could go for some carbonated sugar water. *nod*

Wow, all those people call soda by one brand name?
In my country many folks also call it "coke". "Softdrink" is the second most common option, but that is used far less often than "coke". We don't call it "soda" or "pop"... they will give you blank stares... or another, specific, less popular brand of drink.

The divider between the north and the south is sweet tea. If you go to a restaurant and order sweet tea, and receive iced tea and several packs of sugar, you are in the north. If you order iced tea and receive a cup of sugar with some tea mixed in, you are in the south.

Incidentally, the transition happens just north of Richmond, VA. Thus, the northern part of VA, from about Fredricksburg up, is not actually part of the south, and is often referred to as "occupied virginia."

Other than that, the states that use "coke" are pretty much "the south".

It should also be noted that South Carolina likes to think it is the state that most embodies "southernness", because it seceded first, and is the only state in the south with "South" as part of its name. They still fly the confederate flag in front of the capital building in Columbia (though the US flag is on the pole that is higher and on top of the building).

Wow, all those people call soda by one brand name?

It's probably because Coca-Cola is centered in Georgia.

The Coke museum in Atlanta is the only place you can still get Surge (except that Wiki says you can still get it in Norway...go fig).

so is southerness entirely bound up with the historical experience of reconstruction?

No. It's just an attempt at a standard. And a reason to leave Maryland out.

No. It's just an attempt at a standard. And a reason to leave Maryland out.

Maryland is a weird state. They're very southern, except during the Civil War, the Union realized that if Maryland seceded, the Union capital would be surrounded. So they told Maryland not to, with the whole of the Union army standing at the boarder.

That said, if you cannot get sweet tea in Maryland, it is not in the south.

The divider between the north and the south is sweet tea. If you go to a restaurant and order sweet tea, and receive iced tea and several packs of sugar, you are in the north. If you order iced tea and receive a cup of sugar with some tea mixed in, you are in the south.

That's the best answer yet - very true. :p

That's the best answer yet - very true. :p

I've been all over both sides.

I visited a friend in Mass. and was asked by her family if everyone in the south put hot sauce on everything, or if that was just texas. Also, none of them understood the concept of sweet tea or grits.

I'd argue that Maine has a more "Northern" feel than Minnesota, save for the weather.

Culturally, southern Maine should be part of New Brunswick, and northern Maine should be part of Quebec. To answer the OP, if, again, you're talking culturally, "the South" would be Virginia except for the D.C. suburbs, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia except for Atlanta, Florida north of a line from Port St. Lucie to Clearwater, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana except for what's left of New Orleans, Texas north and east of line from Victoria to Waco to Wichita Falls, Oklahoma east of the Panhandle, Missouri south of a line from Kansas City to St. Louis, Arkansas, Tennessee, and Kentucky.

Georgia except for Atlanta,

I'm gonna call bullshit on this one.

As my roommate says: There are a lot of people that would say Atlanta's not really "southern"...But most of those people are from the North so they don't know what they're talking about.

Atlanta does have a lot of non-southern culture because it is the largest city in the south (correct me if I'm wrong, I can't think of any bigger city). That said, there is a lot of southern culture embedded in the city.

Also, you can get sweet tea there. Sweet tea makes it the south.

I'm gonna call bullshit on this one.

As my roommate says: There are a lot of people that would say Atlanta's not really "southern"...But most of those people are from the North so they don't know what they're talking about.

Atlanta does have a lot of non-southern culture because it is the largest city in the south (correct me if I'm wrong, I can't think of any bigger city). That said, there is a lot of southern culture embedded in the city.

Also, you can get sweet tea there. Sweet tea makes it the south.

OK, disagree, but don't call me for "bullshit". Don't make it sound like I was deliberately trying to deceive. And Atlanta is not the largest City in the South. Depending on how one defines "the South", it would be either Houston, Dallas, Jacksonville, or Memphis. If you want metro populations, it would be either Houston or Dallas-Ft. Worth. BTW, I may not have ever lived in Atlanta, but I lived in the South (Texas, North Carolina, and Virginia) for twenty years, so I do know the South.

OK, disagree, but don't call me for "bullshit". Don't make it sound like I was deliberately trying to deceive. And Atlanta is not the largest City in the South. Depending on how one defines "the South", it would be either Houston, Dallas, Jacksonville, or Memphis. If you want metro populations, it would be either Houston or Dallas-Ft. Worth. BTW, I may not have ever lived in Atlanta, but I lived in the South (Texas, North Carolina, and Virginia) for twenty years, so I do know the South.

You are taking me way too seriously when I say bullshit. I meant it was false, not that you're lying.

As city size, I consider Texas to be something of an odd state...It has a lot of "southernness" to it, but it's not really the south. Southwest, sure...Then again, a lot of people (including texans) think texas is pretty much its own country.

As for Jacksonville, it has more people in the city, but Atlanta has a bigger metropolitan population. Same with Memphis. The city populations are 700,000ish for Jacksonville, 600,000ish for Memphis, and 400,000ish for Atlanta. however, the metropolitan pop is about 1 mil against Atlanta's 5 mil.

But that gets into the semantics of how we're defining city. For the record, I tend to think of cities including their metropolitan area, not just the core city.

Northern Florida and Central Florida minus the cities of Tampa and Orlando and part of the South.

the parts of Florida that are really not part of the South are Palm Beach, Broward and Dade counties.

That would be West Palm Beach, Ft. Lauderdale and Miami.

Also, you can get sweet tea there. Sweet tea makes it the south.

Mary Mac's Tea Room.

yumtastic.

There's also the coke/soda/pop linguistic divide...

The most bizarre thing about that map is the circle of yellow surrounding St. Louis for no apparent reason.

Also, I have no evidence of this, but I'm certain that those green dots in NC and VA represent "cold drink."

The most bizarre thing about that map is the circle of yellow surrounding St. Louis for no apparent reason.


See my previous post on this precise subject. St. Louis is a weird little enclave of northeastern-osity in the middle of the Midwest - the use of "soda" is just one of the more obvious symptoms thereof. :)

You are taking me way too seriously when I say bullshit. I meant it was false, not that you're lying.

As city size, I consider Texas to be something of an odd state...It has a lot of "southernness" to it, but it's not really the south. Southwest, sure...Then again, a lot of people (including texans) think texas is pretty much its own country.

As for Jacksonville, it has more people in the city, but Atlanta has a bigger metropolitan population. Same with Memphis. The city populations are 700,000ish for Jacksonville, 600,000ish for Memphis, and 400,000ish for Atlanta. however, the metropolitan pop is about 1 mil against Atlanta's 5 mil.

But that gets into the semantics of how we're defining city. For the record, I tend to think of cities including their metropolitan area, not just the core city.

As I stated earlier, whether Texas is "southern" depends on which part of Texas you're in. East Texas is southern; West Texas is the sterotypical "West", complete with the occasional tumbleweed; South Texas (where I grew up) is very Mexican cullturally; the Dallas-Ft. Worth -- San Antonio/Austin -- Houston corridor is a strange mix of all three. But you're right about Texans thinking of themselves as a quasi-independant country.

See my previous post on this precise subject. St. Louis is a weird little enclave of northeastern-osity in the middle of the Midwest - the use of "soda" is just one of the more obvious symptoms thereof. :)

Gotcha. I'd be interested to know why this is the case. Was there a mass migration or something?

That's common in California too, even if the map has it for soda. "Pop" is probably the most useful for placing a person, since there isn't as much crossover.

No it isn't, I've never heard all soda referred to as "coke." Generally the term can only be used for Coca-Cola, Pepsi or store brand knock offs of either of these two.

As I stated earlier, whether Texas is "southern" depends on which part of Texas you're in. East Texas is southern; West Texas is the sterotypical "West", complete with the occasional tumbleweed; South Texas (where I grew up) is very Mexican cullturally; the Dallas-Ft. Worth -- San Antonio/Austin -- Houston corridor is a strange mix of all three. But you're right about Texans thinking of themselves as a quasi-independant country.

And then there's the almost freaky North/Northeastern thing going on with the Corpus Christi area. Freaky as in a kind of phenomenon, not actually "freaky" as in weird. That map for soda pop terminology really doesn't show what it's like, as I'm from Corpus Christi (well, Port Aransas), and a lot of the people there say "soda".

generally speaking, the american 'south' refers to those states which the 'civil' war was fought to prevent their succession.

states and portions of states west of there, but still the southernmost of states and portions of states are refered to as the southwest.

florida may by a special case, not having thrown in with the confederacy wishing to succeed, but being surrounded to the north by states that did, it is generally included in the term. which also refers to those states in which racial segrigation was legal from the end of reconstruction until state's rights became virtually a thing totally of the past, which was the unfortunate, and appearantly neccessary, means by which legal segrigation was ended.

those states that WERE most notorius for racial segrigation were generally the same as those which attemted to succeed and which the civil war was fought to prevent their doing so.

immigration policy is of course another form of segrigation re-raising its ugly head, largely among so called conservative intrests in the southwest.

=^^=
.../\...

Wow, all those people call soda by one brand name?

As with other common brand names that are household words - Asprin, Tissue, Band-aid, and so forth.

I'm really wondering what the "others" call it.

I underrstand "fizzy drink", "soda pop", "cold drink", and other terms are also used...

The divider between the north and the south is sweet tea. If you go to a restaurant and order sweet tea, and receive iced tea and several packs of sugar, you are in the north. If you order iced tea and receive a cup of sugar with some tea mixed in, you are in the south.

Incidentally, the transition happens just north of Richmond, VA. Thus, the northern part of VA, from about Fredricksburg up, is not actually part of the south, and is often referred to as "occupied virginia."

Other than that, the states that use "coke" are pretty much "the south".

It should also be noted that South Carolina likes to think it is the state that most embodies "southernness", because it seceded first, and is the only state in the south with "South" as part of its name. They still fly the confederate flag in front of the capital building in Columbia (though the US flag is on the pole that is higher and on top of the building).

I'm an outlier when it comes to tea. I simply cannot stand sweet team and hence grew up hating big events where that was the only available beverage.

OK, disagree, but don't call me for "bullshit". Don't make it sound like I was deliberately trying to deceive. And Atlanta is not the largest City in the South. Depending on how one defines "the South", it would be either Houston, Dallas, Jacksonville, or Memphis. If you want metro populations, it would be either Houston or Dallas-Ft. Worth. BTW, I may not have ever lived in Atlanta, but I lived in the South (Texas, North Carolina, and Virginia) for twenty years, so I do know the South.

Houston FTW.

You are taking me way too seriously when I say bullshit. I meant it was false, not that you're lying.

As city size, I consider Texas to be something of an odd state...It has a lot of "southernness" to it, but it's not really the south. Southwest, sure...Then again, a lot of people (including texans) think texas is pretty much its own country.

As for Jacksonville, it has more people in the city, but Atlanta has a bigger metropolitan population. Same with Memphis. The city populations are 700,000ish for Jacksonville, 600,000ish for Memphis, and 400,000ish for Atlanta. however, the metropolitan pop is about 1 mil against Atlanta's 5 mil.

But that gets into the semantics of how we're defining city. For the record, I tend to think of cities including their metropolitan area, not just the core city.

Texian here. Ya'll, BBQ, chicken fried steak, grits, calling a soft drink a coke, the weather, country music, the aforementioned awful hypersweet tea, etc., etc....

The Texas I grew up in is the South....

The most bizarre thing about that map is the circle of yellow surrounding St. Louis for no apparent reason.

Also, I have no evidence of this, but I'm certain that those green dots in NC and VA represent "cold drink."

Oh, there's all sorts of anomolies. ;)

As I stated earlier, whether Texas is "southern" depends on which part of Texas you're in. East Texas is southern; West Texas is the sterotypical "West", complete with the occasional tumbleweed; South Texas (where I grew up) is very Mexican cullturally; the Dallas-Ft. Worth -- San Antonio/Austin -- Houston corridor is a strange mix of all three. But you're right about Texans thinking of themselves as a quasi-independant country.

Toss in that where I grew up had a large Michigan contingient...

No it isn't, I've never heard all soda referred to as "coke." Generally the term can only be used for Coca-Cola, Pepsi or store brand knock offs of either of these two.

Was that a general comment or a regional specific comment? Because if it was the former, you're dead wrong.

As with other common brand names that are household words - Asprin, Tissue, Band-aid, and so forth.

my favorite of these is the use of the word bubbler instead of drinking fountain. it makes some amount of sense that the area around kohler would call them that - wisconsinites always have to be overly proud of something - but what's up with the states out east that say it?

Also, you can get sweet tea there. Sweet tea makes it the south.

Ah yes, sweet tea. Nice sweet tea, with a hint of lemon and packed with ice. Or peach flavored! That's the South alright. I had the opportunity to sample that Southern delicacy when in Louisiana several years ago and I was delighted.

I hated iced tea in the north. I lived in MI for 2 years and I always had to pour sugar on the damned tea. It doesn't taste the same. The South takes the gold medal there as well as my :fluffle: for the day.

:fluffle:'s the South.

The former Confederacy, except for Florida & Texas. Texas is its own region. Florida has too many northerners to be part of the South.

I think this is the best definition on the thread so far. Also, I could not agree more with this statement:

Stop fucking using "USian," it sounds fucking retarded. If you can't use just "American," you could do what some others on this forum do and use "USAmerican," which is a sort of compromise.

As with other common brand names that are household words - Asprin, Tissue, Band-aid, and so forth.


Band-aid is the only brand name - Asprin and Tissue aren't. Usually Tylenol or Kleenex are used, respectively.

Everything south of the Mason-Dixon line, duh. Easiest. Question. Ever.

Everything south of the Mason-Dixon line, duh. Easiest. Question. Ever.

so hawai'i for sure then, yeah?

Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and South Carolina are the Deep South.

North Carolina and Virginia are part of the South.

Kentucky and West Virginia are border states.

Arkansas and Tennessee are part of the South.

Missouri is a mix. Border state with strong Southern leanings.

Texas is its own thing.

Florida IS NOT part of the South.

Northern Florida and Central Florida minus the cities of Tampa and Orlando and part of the South.

the parts of Florida that are really not part of the South are Palm Beach, Broward and Dade counties.

That would be West Palm Beach, Ft. Lauderdale and Miami.

I'm never sure if my area is central or something else... south of Tampa...wiki says it counts as Southwest Florida. So I'm not really sure if we're southern or not. Maybe we are, I don't know. I don't identify as part of the south culturally, and I don't have an accent that's at all significantly different from that of my cousins in Michigan, but there are a lot of rednecks around here, the kind who put big confederate flags on the back of their trucks and wear those camoflauge jackets and hang out in big groups in hallways tripping anyone who comes in and making fun of everyone else.

I'm never sure if my area is central or something else... south of Tampa...wiki says it counts as Southwest Florida. So I'm not really sure if we're southern or not. Maybe we are, I don't know. I don't identify as part of the south culturally, and I don't have an accent that's at all significantly different from that of my cousins in Michigan, but there are a lot of rednecks around here, the kind who put big confederate flags on the back of their trucks and wear those camoflauge jackets and hang out in big groups in hallways tripping anyone who comes in and making fun of everyone else.
That would be south west florida which...is technically "southern" but Florida is hard because of the rapid change of demographics. For example, the areas on the coast by Cocoa Beach and south of that to Melbourne are Southern in my opinion, but they seem to be less and less so every time I go there to visit a friend or whatever.

The problem for your area is that you really don't have the accent and all that....so you don't consider yourself part of the south..but to people in South Florida, that is the tri-county area....everything outside of South Florida is part of the South....so it's difficult.

Oh and at my high school in south florida we also had people wearing camoflauge jackets and trucks with confed flags on them....was never a problem..they just said the flags represented their southern pride. Nobody ever had a problem with them (nor do I) and I'm not Southern at all.....Southern Californian turned South Floridian. Also, my school had a pretty big latin and black populations and they didn't have problems with the confed flag either. Like I said, I'm not southern so I wouldn't fly it...but I have no problem with people doing it.

But I think it's interesting what you said about those hicks in your hallways. Down here, instead of rednecks doing that, it's self proclaimed "niggas"...or thuggy black people.

That would be south west florida which...is technically "southern" but Florida is hard because of the rapid change of demographics. For example, the areas on the coast by Cocoa Beach and south of that to Melbourne are Southern in my opinion, but they seem to be less and less so every time I go there to visit a friend or whatever.

The problem for your area is that you really don't have the accent and all that....so you don't consider yourself part of the south..but to people in South Florida, that is the tri-county area....everything outside of South Florida is part of the South....so it's difficult.

Oh and at my high school in south florida we also had people wearing camoflauge jackets and trucks with confed flags on them....was never a problem..they just said the flags represented their southern pride. Nobody ever had a problem with them (nor do I) and I'm not Southern at all.....Southern Californian turned South Floridian. Also, my school had a pretty big latin and black populations and they didn't have problems with the confed flag either. Like I said, I'm not southern so I wouldn't fly it...but I have no problem with people doing it.

But I think it's interesting what you said about those hicks in your hallways. Down here, instead of rednecks doing that, it's self proclaimed "niggas"...or thuggy black people.

I really haven't gone anywhere else in south west Florida except like Naples (and only once there)...and of course the Bradenton/Sarasota area where I live.

I don't really have a problem with the confederate flag or the jackets either, it just helps me to recognize it because the people who do that are the same people who try to trip me and my classmates and call me the devil and accuse me of planning to bring a gun to school or something. Just helps me to avoid them... there's usually just a bunch of them in one of the hallways, probably because it's the hallway that the agriculture classrooms are in (I see them heading in that direction). It's just also the same hallway that the calculus class is in...

I'm never sure if my area is central or something else... south of Tampa...wiki says it counts as Southwest Florida. So I'm not really sure if we're southern or not. Maybe we are, I don't know. I don't identify as part of the south culturally, and I don't have an accent that's at all significantly different from that of my cousins in Michigan, but there are a lot of rednecks around here, the kind who put big confederate flags on the back of their trucks and wear those camoflauge jackets and hang out in big groups in hallways tripping anyone who comes in and making fun of everyone else.

I think most of those who would exclude part or all of Florida will tell you that Southwest Florida isn't the South, it's the beach. :p

The South is a state of mind, as is the North. one day you will understand that places can be re-animated through thought alone, by altering the chemicals in the brain you can be in a place you have never even been to.
confusing eh?

The South is a state of mind, as is the North. one day you will understand that places can be re-animated through thought alone, by altering the chemicals in the brain you can be in a place you have never even been to.
confusing eh?

Turns out sweet tea is actually a mind-altering drug. That's how the South stays Southern.

Turns out sweet tea is actually a mind-altering drug. That's how the South stays Southern.

All Hail Sweet Tea!!

Band-aid is the only brand name - Asprin and Tissue aren't. Usually Tylenol or Kleenex are used, respectively.

You are correct on tissue (that's a hazard of ex-pat life), however, Asprin is a brand name.

When did Aspirin® first appear?
The active ingredient in Aspirin®, acetylsalicylic acid, was synthesized for the first time in a chemically pure and thus stable form in 1897 by a young chemist working for Bayer, Dr. Felix Hoffmann. At that time, there were very few options for the treatment of patients suffering from pain. The preferred treatment for pain, fever and inflammation in Hoffmann's day, the active substance salicylic acid, had one decisive disadvantage - it was very poorly tolerated. Legend has it that Dr. Hoffmann discovered acetylsalicylic acid in a fortuitous experiment while searching for a remedy that would be better tolerated by his father, who was plagued by rheumatoid arthritis.

The new substance with its surprisingly simple chemical structure rapidly proved its superiority in clinical trials - it is highly effective and relatively well tolerated. In 1899, acetylsalicylic acid was launched on the German market under the trademark Aspirin®. Today, Aspirin® is a registered trademark of Bayer AG in Germany and more than 80 other countries. In countries where Aspirin® is not protected by trademark status, such as the United States, the term Aspirin® can be used generically for all products containing the active substance acetylsalicylic acid. However, genuine Aspirin®, renowned the world over, is only available with the Bayer Cross.
Read the package insert and directions for use before using Aspirin®. For further information on benefits, risks and side effects please consult your physician or pharmacist!
http://www.aspirin.com/faq_en.html

(And in an odd sidenote, discovered while looking that up, in the early 20th C., aspirin was expensive enough in the US that it was smuggled into the US from Canada. Heh. And today's seniors thought they invented going to Canada to get cheap meds... ;))

Not Southern. They didn't experience Reconstruction, and Maryland at least ended up abolishing slavery of its own accord.

I don't think so. Maryland was a slave state, it just didn't leave the Union. It later outlawed slavery with the rest of the country when the 13th Amendment was created.

I'd consider the South to be all the former Confederate states. However, I don't really think of it as a geographic area so much as a sort of geo-cultural invisible wave, emanating from somewhere in rural Mississippi.

I don't think so. Maryland was a slave state, it just didn't leave the Union.

Right.

It later outlawed slavery with the rest of the country when the 13th Amendment was created.

No, it outlawed slavery when it adopted a new constitution towards the end of the Civil War.

Most of the USA is south of Milan anyway. And south of Rome, too. Terroni! ;)

Mary Mac's Tea Room.

yumtastic.
That's a strange place for an Ohio boy to know... You've clearly been down Ponce once or twice. Ever visit the Majestic, "Good Food since 1934", diner?

The former Confederacy, except for Florida & Texas. Texas is its own region. Florida has too many northerners to be part of the South.

Hmmm....I disagree on Texas. Though it may not be part of the traditional "Deep South" view, it has contemporarily become an icon of the South. I live there, and people are always talking about stupid southerners with their "y'alls" and "fixing to"s or how our President is a stupid southerner.
However, I think that the Panhandle of Florida should get the southern classification.

Just where is the South, anyway?
well?

The U.S.

I always considered both Carolinas, Texas, Mississippi, Arkansas, Lousiana, Georgia, Alabama, Tenessee, and Florida to be the southern states, maybe Virginia, but Viriginia gets to be a northern state because it gets sympathy points because like the ass it is Maryland's trying to steal the coastline from it and like the good friend it is Delaware's saying "That's not yours!" and stealing it back from Maryland. Bad Maryland! No biscuit for you!

Also, I was wondering, would you say West Virginia is the one state that did succesfully secede considering it used to be part of Virginia?

I always considered both Carolinas, Texas, Mississippi, Arkansas, Lousiana, Georgia, Alabama, Tenessee, and Florida to be the southern states, maybe Virginia, but Viriginia gets to be a northern state because it gets sympathy points because like the ass it is Maryland's trying to steal the coastline from it and like the good friend it is Delaware's saying "That's not yours!" and stealing it back from Maryland. Bad Maryland! No biscuit for you!

i like your whole-hearted embrace of florida and hedging about virginia. sort of a reversal from the standard response.

Many people might not consider Florida to be a "Southern" state despite its location.
Northern Florida is Southern. Southern Florida is Latin American. In between is part Yank, part Canuck, and part Whatthefuck.

Texas, the Carolinas, Georgia, Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Missouri, Virginia, Tennessee, Kentucky, Arkansas, and Oklahoma are what I consider the South.

Northern Florida is Southern. Southern Florida is Latin American. In between is part Yank, part Canuck, and part Whatthefuck.
in between is more Southern to be honest. South Florida is Latin-American, New Yorkish, Russian and Californian.

Not sure why..but Miami has a shitload of Russians...both Jewish and non.:confused: They're everywhere.

Right.



No, it outlawed slavery when it adopted a new constitution towards the end of the Civil War.

Oh, I didn't know that. Although thinking back, I do seem to remember learning that many states had their constitutions "fixed" by the federal government after the Civil War. Maryland probably wasn't one of them, though, not having seceded.

Oh, I didn't know that. Although thinking back, I do seem to remember learning that many states had their constitutions "fixed" by the federal government after the Civil War. Maryland probably wasn't one of them, though, not having seceded.

Maryland is amusing in that they started to secede. But the Union saw that if Maryland seceded, its capital, already absurdly close to the Confederate capital, would be surrounded by Confederate states. So the Union told Maryland it wasn't allowed to secede and reminded them that they would be (and already were) surrounded by Union forces and that if they wanted to secede they'd be the first target of the Union army.

In any case, if you can get sweet tea in Maryland, it is in the south. I've been told that parts of Maryland sell sweet tea, which means that parts are indeed in the south.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Southern_American_English.svg/300px-Southern_American_English.svg.png

I think this should Decisively answer the question, it is a Map from Wikipedia detailing the areas of the United States where Southern American English is the majority spoken Dialect...

Every state listed except Florida. I'd only count the panhandle as being truly Southern.

I think this should Decisively answer the question

no, only NSG can decisively answer the question

The former Confederacy, except for Florida & Texas. Texas is its own region. Florida has too many northerners to be part of the South.

Florida is proof that if you go too far south you wind up north. Key West, which is as far "south" as you can go in Florida, has a monumnet to New York sailors. (Ironically the "Maine" was manned by New Yorkers and Key West was where all the survivors from the explosion in cuba were shipped to.)

Still there was a great story about a wonderful lady during the civil war. She's raise the confederte flag evey time the union ships sailed by. By the time they arrived she had it down and well hid. Actually I think the old lady just wanted to have a bunch of sailors for a cup of tea and they were the only ones she could find.

Key West was the last to "seccede" from the Union, but that was in the 20th century and only for a few days. Forget the south rising, long live the Conch Republic!

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/8877/nsgsouthpx7.jpg

nsg's south?

The South...
Anyplace where the inhabitants say barb-wory instead or barb-wire.:D

I'm gonna call bullshit on this one.

As my roommate says: There are a lot of people that would say Atlanta's not really "southern"...But most of those people are from the North so they don't know what they're talking about.

Atlanta does have a lot of non-southern culture because it is the largest city in the south (correct me if I'm wrong, I can't think of any bigger city). That said, there is a lot of southern culture embedded in the city.

Also, you can get sweet tea there. Sweet tea makes it the south.Houston is much larger. Atlanta has about one third the population of Houston. Houston is the fourth most populous city in the US. The largest in the south.

The South...
Anyplace where the inhabitants say barb-wory instead or barb-wire.:Dbarb -wahr, thank y'all.

Houston is much larger. Atlanta has about one third the population of Houston. Houston is the fourth most populous city in the US. The largest in the south.

Texas may or may not be part of the south, and thus, I choose to address it separately. Houston may be bigger, but it may not actually be a part of the south, so I don't care. In any case, I generally go by the metropolitan population: Houston is still bigger than Atlanta by metro, but not by too much.

That said, the question is this: can you get sweet tea in Houston? Having never been, I don't know. If you can, it is the south.

In any case, that is entirely besides the point. The point is that Atlanta is a large city in the south, one of the largest at least, which gives it many characteristics of a more northern city, but the point remains that it is still very southern.

barb -wahr, thank y'all.

LOL!:D