NationStates Jolt Archive

Alright old issue, sorry... However it was recently brought up in my life...

I don't say the pledge or really awknowledge the flag during the pledge, I am really pissed at the United States right now, and it has "under god" in it, I am atheist.

Anyone I got into a heated argument with my Algebra teacher over my "un-patriotism".

Where do you stand on this issue?

You aren't required to say it, so don't if you don't want to.

You forgot the option "too lazy to stand up and speak". That would be my vote if it was there.

If it started a fuss I would just stand up and say it, since it is much too early in the morning for an argument.:)

You aren't required to say it, so don't if you don't want to.

I know I don't have to. I told my teacher to just leave me alone, he didn't. However he cannot really get me into trouble over it.

I pledge allegiance to no one.

The littlest things frustrate people these days.

Apparently we need more war, famine, and a new Crusade to get people's minds back on track.

I know I don't have to. I told my teacher to just leave me alone, he didn't. However he cannot really get me into trouble over it.

You however are capable of getting HIM in trouble if he harasses you over it.

You forgot the "I'm not American" option.

I proudly said pledge every day of high school. Hand over heart, eyes on the flag, and standing up straight. I'd still say it if I was still in high school.

I know I don't have to. I told my teacher to just leave me alone, he didn't. However he cannot really get me into trouble over it.

Eh. Take it up with adminstration if he won't quit. I don't think we ever did the pledge in school after elementary, so the whole thing seems a bit bizarre to me.

I proudly said pledge every day of high school. Hand over heart, eyes on the flag, and standing up straight. I'd still say it if I was still in high school.

You also find the idea of inducing seizures in people hilarious.

Eh. Take it up with adminstration if he won't quit. I don't think we ever did the pledge in school after elementary, so the whole thing seems a bit bizarre to me.

The goal isn't to get him into trouble, I rather like the teacher. Its just he is pounding this is issue. I know I am right.

I proudly said pledge every day of high school. Hand over heart, eyes on the flag, and standing up straight. I'd still say it if I was still in high school.

Why? What are you trying to prove by doing this? If you need to prove to yourself that you are patriotic, then that seems a bit...odd. If you want to prove to others how patriotic you are, then it obviously isn't that genuine to begin with, since you feel the need to prove it.

Just seems like an insecure thing to do.

A nice quote that might help you out:

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence. It is force. And force, like fire, is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." -George Washington

Pull that out on him. Of course, I could be misinterpreting the meaning... but meh.

Click Stand;13602156']Why? What are you trying to prove by doing this? If you need to prove to yourself that you are patriotic, then that seems a bit...odd. If you want to prove to others how patriotic you are, then it obviously isn't that genuine to begin with, since you feel the need to prove it.

Just seems like an insecure thing to do.

Well, you see, the funny thing is is that some people think that unless you go lock-step with the Government, and support it in everything it does, and have pride in everything it does, and salute to the higher powers at all time without criticism, you are not a true American.

The irony of this all, interestingly enough, is that the Founding Fathers and the Revolutionaries were the ones to fall out of step of "King and Crown", if you will.

Life swings many subtle ironies.

You also find the idea of inducing seizures in people hilarious.

Uhh..yeah? My sense of humor is quirky sometimes.

Click Stand;13602156']Why? What are you trying to prove by doing this? If you need to prove to yourself that you are patriotic, then that seems a bit...odd. If you want to prove to others how patriotic you are, then it obviously isn't that genuine to begin with, since you feel the need to prove it.

Just seems like an insecure thing to do.

I said it because I liked saying it. I love my country. Taking the 10 seconds to stand and honor my country in the morning is the least I can do. I didn't need to prove anything to anyone.

Uhh..yeah? My sense of humor is quirky sometimes.



I said it because I liked saying it. I love my country. Taking the 10 seconds to stand and honor my country in the morning is the least I can do. I didn't need to prove anything to anyone.

What is left to like in this country right now? We are in a pointless war. Our leader is an imbecile and our economy is faltering.

I would like to love America but it is really fucking hard.

I would like to love America but it is really fucking hard.

Some people enjoy that. ;)

Some people enjoy that. ;)

loving america?

or fucking hard?

XD

being British I have never had to experience this problem (hence why we didn't want you in our empire!) however no the only flags that should be respected are those on fire or something

or say this:

I [name] swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will, as in duty bound, honestly and faithfully defend Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors, in Person, Crown and Dignity against all enemies, and will observe and obey all orders of Her Majesty, Her Heirs and Successors, and of the generals and officers set over me. So help me God.

and video what happens

being British I have never had to experience this problem (hence why we didn't want you in our empire!) however no the only flags that should be respected are those on fire or something

or say this:

I seem to remember a hard-fought battle by Britain to hold onto America... A little to much effort someone that doesn't care XD

loving america?

or fucking hard?

XD

Let me just wink again.

;)

Like so.

What is left to like in this country right now? We are in a pointless war. Our leader is an imbecile and our economy is faltering.

I would like to love America but it is really fucking hard.

Do you have food to eat? A place to sleep? Plenty of belongings? Electricity? Enough leisure time to use the internet? Going to movies, ball games, concerts, etc?

Do you like living in the most powerful and richest nation in the history of the world? I do.

I also like how the US is one of the only countries in the Western world to still have balls.

I know I enjoy the Pax Americana. So do most people throughout the world.

I may not like our leader a whole lot, but I respect the office, so I refrain from name calling.

Hmm...what else...






AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!

What is left to like in this country right now? We are in a pointless war. Our leader is an imbecile and our economy is faltering.

I would like to love America but it is really fucking hard.

America=/= Washington. I love my nation because of the people that reside in it. Not the people ruling it.

Besides, if you don't pass the "I Love America" test, we send you to Zimbabwe. And we turn you white.

America=/= Washington. I love my nation because of the people that reside in it. Not the people ruling it.

Besides, if you don't pass the "I Love America" test, we send you to Zimbabwe. And we turn you white.

That too! I knew I was forgetting something (been up for a looooong time, my mind is wandering)!

I love the people (well, some of the people), the history, and the country (the actual country-the geography), of America.

Do you have food to eat? A place to sleep? Plenty of belongings? Electricity? Enough leisure time to use the internet? Going to movies, ball games, concerts, etc?

Do you like living in the most powerful and richest nation in the history of the world? I do.

I also like how the US is one of the only countries in the Western world to still have balls.

I know I enjoy the Pax Americana. So do most people throughout the world.

I may not like our leader a whole lot, but I respect the office, so I refrain from name calling.

Hmm...what else...






AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!


I never disputed the fact that America wasn't a "horrible" place to live. However I do not beleive it to be the richest or most powerful nation, maybe militarily but thats it. We are like one of 10 countries left in the world who have the death penalty. America doesn't really "have balls". We pick on smaller nations for no good reason. Sounds more like a bully to me

I never disputed the fact that America wasn't a "horrible" place to live. However I do not beleive it to be the richest or most powerful nation, maybe militarily but thats it. We are like one of 10 countries left in the world who have the death penalty. America doesn't really "have balls". We pick on smaller nations for no good reason. Sounds more like a bully to me

Well I support the death penalty.

We still have the balls to enforce what we want.

Our military is the most high tech and powerful in the world. Our economy is the largest in the world, despite being in a rough spot! We are in rough spot now, but we'll weather it.

I never disputed the fact that America wasn't a "horrible" place to live. However I do not beleive it to be the richest or most powerful nation, maybe militarily but thats it. We are like one of 10 countries left in the world who have the death penalty. America doesn't really "have balls". We pick on smaller nations for no good reason. Sounds more like a bully to me

But that's not America. That is the American government. It is one thing to dislike a government. It is entirely different to dislike a nation. You are America. I am America. Steven Colbert is America.

Well I support the death penalty.

We still have the balls to enforce what we want.

Our military is the most high tech and powerful in the world. Our economy is the largest in the world, despite being in a rough spot! We are in rough spot now, but we'll weather it.

Even when our economy isn't in a "rough spot" Europe's is better...

And so what? We have big guns so we can go bully Middle Eastern countries and CAUSE more problems than we are solving.

What do we enforce? We gave up in Somalia, we won't touch Tibet, we got our asses handed to us in Nam... I mean honestly what do we enforce? We enFORCE the obtaining of oil from 3rd world INNOCENT countries.

EDIT: The death penalty is barbarism at its finest.

I also like how the US is one of the only countries in the Western world to still have balls.

Personally, I think it's time for castration.

Even when our economy isn't in a "rough spot" Europe's is better...


Europe isn't a country.

You also find the idea of inducing seizures in people hilarious.

I also found that funny in a sick way

I seem to remember a hard-fought battle by Britain to hold onto America... A little to much effort someone that doesn't care XD

pfft if we had cared about America would we have fought Spain, France, the Dutch republic and the Kingdom of Mysore?

we just wanted Canada :p

Do you have food to eat? A place to sleep? Plenty of belongings? Electricity? Enough leisure time to use the internet? Going to movies, ball games, concerts, etc?

yes *starts football hooligan chant*

Do you like living in the most powerful and richest nation in the history of the world? I do.

1) your not Swiss
2) your not Russian
3) I don't really count America's poor as rich
4) massive penis waving going on here

I also like how the US is one of the only countries in the Western world to still have balls.

really? so what was Somalia about? and how about that whole fiasco where the E.U told the US to STFU with its tariffs (which America soon gave up on)?

Personally, I think it's time for castration.

Can we have a massive Testicle Festival?

Europe isn't a country.

Thanks captain.

Fine, the Euro is stronger than the USD.

I'm not an American or at school, but if I were in your shoes I wouldn't stand & recite the pledge of allegiance. I'd object on political & religious grounds, but more importantly, I think that level of patriotism is nauseatingly over the top. It smacks of brainwashing to me.

Thanks captain.

Fine, the Euro is stronger than the USD.

Yes, it is. And the British Pound.

I'm not an American or at school, but if I were in your shoes I wouldn't stand & recite the pledge of allegiance. I'd object on political & religious grounds, but more importantly, I think that level of patriotism is nauseatingly over the top. It smacks of brainwashing to me.

It is an attempt at brainwashing...

I would like to bring to people's attention that I am a Far-left radical living in the heart of hick nation... it gets pretty bad over here XD

Fine, the Euro is stronger than the USD.

and the Pound is stronger than the Euro (pound being the strongest currency in circulation on Earth IIRC;))

what does that mean other than me being able to buy American dancing slaves for cheaper?

-Nobody can legally FORCE you to say the pledge.
-Youre free to leave out the 'under god' part.
-If a teacher or insturctor threatens to MAKE you say it, bring your lawyer to class.
-If you dont have a lawyer, go Ghandi on their ass and sit in front of the door to the class or something.
If it doesnt mean enough to you to do that, then shut up and stop whining.

I'm not an American or at school, but if I were in your shoes I wouldn't stand & recite the pledge of allegiance. I'd object on political & religious grounds, but more importantly, I think that level of patriotism is nauseatingly over the top. It smacks of brainwashing to me.

-Nobody can legally FORCE you to say the pledge.
-Youre free to leave out the 'under god' part.
-If a teacher or insturctor threatens to MAKE you say it, bring your lawyer to class.
-If you dont have a lawyer, go Ghandi on their ass and sit in front of the door to the class or something.
If it doesnt mean enough to you to do that, then shut up and stop whining.

Its Ghandi-time!

Even when our economy isn't in a "rough spot" Europe's is better...

And so what? We have big guns so we can go bully Middle Eastern countries and CAUSE more problems than we are solving.

What do we enforce? We gave up in Somalia, we won't touch Tibet, we got our asses handed to us in Nam... I mean honestly what do we enforce? We enFORCE the obtaining of oil from 3rd world INNOCENT countries.

EDIT: The death penalty is barbarism at its finest.

We do what is in our national interest to do, which is secure oil as cheaply as possible, as that is what our economy runs on: cheap energy, which at the moment means cheap oil.

About the death penalty: nope. It is not barbaric in the slightest. It is the highest punishment for the most heinous crimes.

Personally, I think it's time for castration.

No. You think wrong.



1) your not Swiss
2) your not Russian
3) I don't really count America's poor as rich
4) massive penis waving going on here



really? so what was Somalia about? and how about that whole fiasco where the E.U told the US to STFU with its tariffs (which America soon gave up on)?

1. ?
2. ?
3. Yes we have poor people. We also have many insanely rich people. It probably averages out nicely.
4. So what?

The public lost confidence about Somalia.
About the tariffs...what? Maybe we thought it was more trouble than it was worth? I don't recall hearing about it.

About the tariffs...what? Maybe we thought it was more trouble than it was worth? I don't recall hearing about it.

It's all the hubbub. Everyones giving subsidies and assistance to domestic industries, despite signing treaties saying that they don't. Then when the other guy does it, they go to court trying to make them stop. Then the other guy brings up their own subsidies, and the bitching goes around and around and around...

Yes we have poor people. We also have many insanely rich people. It probably averages out nicely.

How do you figure that mothers on the street cannot whore herself out for enough money to buy her 3 kids clothes balances out with billionaires blowing their money on multi-million dollar mansions with 4 basketball courts and 3 swimming pools

et cetera et cetera

My point being, it doesn't "balance out"

How do you figure that mothers on the street cannot whore herself out for enough money to buy her 3 kids clothes balances out with billionaires blowing their money on multi-million dollar mansions with 4 basketball courts and 3 swimming pools

et cetera et cetera

My point being, it doesn't "balance out"

Economically, I'm betting he means. Rich people make the economy go round...

Of course, there is the question of why the mother didn't abort the 3 kids she couldn't afford...

Economically, I'm betting he means. Rich people make the economy go round...

Of course, there is the question of why the mother didn't abort the 3 kids she couldn't afford...

Because her belief in the god that is leaving her to die prevents it.

I find it amusing that Trollgaard, a self proclaimed anarcho-primitivist, is a nationalist.

Because her belief in the god that is leaving her to die prevents it.

God is leaving her to die? That's a new one. I thought biology and physiology took care of the whole "death" thing.

Economically, I'm betting he means. Rich people make the economy go round...

Of course, there is the question of why the mother didn't abort the 3 kids she couldn't afford...

Yes, I was speaking in money terms.

Every country has its poor people. Though I think America has been ignoring the domestic front for some time.

God is leaving her to die? That's a new one. I thought biology and physiology took care of the whole "death" thing.

Haha.

It was more of an anti-theist statement.

Referring to the popular belief that "god" will deliver those down on their luck through rough times.

I find it amusing that Trollgaard, a self proclaimed anarcho-primitivist, is a nationalist.

Eh, I've kinda moved away from that. It was freshman year, and I let some books go to my head. I still think that would be the best state for mankind, I don't think its feasable at the current time. Best to work on creating as little harm as possible to the environment as we can.

Oh, and I've always been very patriotic, and many of you foreigners would consider it nationalistic (and who knows, maybe I am!).

(It was very strange...those two differing ideologies going through my head...kinda like...doublethink?)

Yes, I was speaking in money terms.

Every country has its poor people. Though I think America has been ignoring the domestic front for some time.

Well there is something we agree on. America has been ignoring the domestic front!

Haha.

It was more of an anti-theist statement.

Referring to the popular belief that "god" will deliver those down on their luck through rough times.

God isn't welfare. God is Affirmative Action.

It's all the hubbub. Everyones giving subsidies and assistance to domestic industries, despite signing treaties saying that they don't. Then when the other guy does it, they go to court trying to make them stop. Then the other guy brings up their own subsidies, and the bitching goes around and around and around...

Oh, well that type of crap has been going on for years. Everyone always bitches about subsidies. Especially to farmers. But hey, if no else is going lower subsidies to their farmers, why should we? Food is the most important thing a nation can have in abundance.

3. Yes we have poor people. We also have many insanely rich people. It probably averages out nicely.
4. So what?

3) poverty is not balanced out by inequality in fact it only makes matters worse considering what happens with inequality
4) so be it, I think I have the advantage here

About the tariffs...what? Maybe we thought it was more trouble than it was worth? I don't recall hearing about it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3951229.stm

see don't mess with us or we will threaten to impose weak sanctions!

God isn't welfare. God is Affirmative Action.

Well I am against God and affirmative action, I mean they are both some of the dumbest ideas ever conceived.

Where do you stand on this issue?

Meh, I wouldn't do that, not even for my own nation.

What you should do is simple: Say the pledge with the right hand held up in the air, then goose-step back to your classroom. Maybe answer any questions by 'jawohl, mein teacher'.

Well I am against God and affirmative action, I mean they are both some of the dumbest ideas ever conceived.

A hyperleftist against affirmative action? You must be white and middle class.

Meh, I wouldn't do that, not even for my own nation.

What you should do is simple: Say the pledge with the right hand held up in the air, then goose-step back to your classroom. Maybe answer any questions by 'jawohl, mein teacher'.

haha, brilliant. Unfortunately I live in hick nation, and my fellow students/ "superiors" are not very intelligent.

A hyperleftist against affirmative action? You must be white and middle class.

You hit the nail on the head!

The pledge of allegiance is meaningless. Kids don't know what it means. Around the same time that the majority of kids began to develop the skills necessary to employ critical thinking to the pledge of allegiance, my school stopped requiring it. How convenient. Now of course, most students never develop critical thinking. That's why Fox News is so popular. But I digress.

Say it. If you're a kid, say it. It isn't worth an argument. It's a a nursery rhyme. It has the same weight as 'Hey Diddle Diddle'. But if you decide not to say it, shut the fuck up. It's nobody's business but your own. I see no reason to rub it in the faces of the kids who continue to say it because they either don't know what the hell they're saying, or developed critical thinking early(as I did) and realized that it had the same impact on one's life as 'Hey Diddle Diddle'.

Is this shit really worth an argument?

It's home. It's out of respect, thats all.

Well I can respect you, and not accept all of your bullshit... I mean thats not that inconceivable right?

You hit the nail on the head!

Let's see if the commuDAR is working correctly...

You live in the suburbs. You live with your father, mother, and a younger sister. You have a dog. Your father forces you to mow the lawn, and you don't like it. You go to a mostly white school. You like Anime, and watch it religiously.

amirite? Or does the commuDAR need some recalibration?

if you decide not to say it, shut the fuck up.

what about making snide comments behind peoples backs and generally giving it an elitist tone?

what about making snide comments behind peoples backs and generally giving it an elitist tone?

Fass isn't even an American. :p

Let's see if the commuDAR is working correctly...

You live in the suburbs. You live with your father, mother, and a younger sister. You have a dog. Your father forces you to mow the lawn, and you don't like it. You go to a mostly white school. You like Anime, and watch it religiously.

amirite? Or does the commuDAR need some recalibration?

I live in the suburbs. I live with my father, mother and younger brother. I have 2 dogs. I have no problem mowing the lawn. I do go to a mostly white school. However I despise anime.

It needs a few tweaks but it was fairly effective.

I live in the suburbs. I live with my father, mother and younger brother. I have 2 dogs. I have no problem mowing the lawn. I do go to a mostly white school. However I despise anime.

It needs a few tweaks but it was fairly effective.

That really isn't bad. The only thing I got totally wrong was the anime. I guess Japanese influence sensitivity is too high. I must recalibrate.

That really isn't bad. The only thing I got totally wrong was the anime. I guess Japanese influence sensitivity is too high. I must recalibrate.

Just as a note though.

I disagree with them on a variety of things. Namely my atheism and veganism. I plan on living in Canada and I hate George W. Bush and am hyperleftist in a family of traditional republicans.

and the Pound is stronger than the Euro (pound being the strongest currency in circulation on Earth IIRC;))


Kuwati Dinar, worth 3 USD.

Just as a note though.

I disagree with them on a variety of things. Namely my atheism and veganism. I plan on living in Canada and I hate George W. Bush and am hyperleftist in a family of traditional republicans.

Congradulations. You are Athiest and Vegan. You get a prize.


And just between you and me, Canada isn't all it's cracked up to be. They still have lots of problems. Just like us. Might I suggest Switzerland as an alternative? At least their milk doesn't come in bags.

Kuwati Dinar, worth 3 USD.

3.79 USD actually. I definately wasn't expecting Dinar to top the list XD

Congradulations. You are Athiest and Vegan. You get a prize.


And just between you and me, Canada isn't all it's cracked up to be. They still have lots of problems. Just like us. Might I suggest Switzerland as an alternative? At least their milk doesn't come in bags.

But he wouldn't like Switzerland, as it has a strong conservative streak. (last election, anyway).

edit: where does milk come in bags?!

Congradulations. You are Athiest and Vegan. You get a prize.


And just between you and me, Canada isn't all it's cracked up to be. They still have lots of problems. Just like us. Might I suggest Switzerland as an alternative? At least their milk doesn't come in bags.

What did I win? (And do i detect sarcasm?)

Switzerland was one of my options... However I decided that I would need to learn the language and the cost of living is higher there, I can get by in Canada quite a bit easier I beleive.

Personally if I had my pick I would live in Iceland... just saying XD

What did I win?

Switzerland was one of my options... However I decided that I would need to learn the language and the cost of living is higher there, I can get by in Canada quite a bit easier I beleive.

Personally if I had my pick I would live in Iceland... just saying XD

I hear iceland is full of sheep. And you know what they say about sheep...

And your prize is....*drumroll*




























NOTHING!

I'm sorry, sometimes I just get rather perturbed about what I perceive as self-righteousness coming from certain people in certain groups ...amoung them vegans and atheists.

I hear iceland is full of sheep. And you know what they say about sheep...

And your prize is....*drumroll*


























NOTHING!

I'm sorry, sometimes I just get rather perturbed about what I perceive as self-righteousness coming from certain people in certain groups ...amoung them vegans and atheists.


*isn't self-righteous*

I am a bit upset that I don't win anything though...

*isn't self-righteous*

I am a bit upset that I don't win anything though...

Perhaps self righteous isn't the right word. Perhaps smugness would be more correct.

And you still don't get a prize. If I don't get a prize for living in the snowiest peninsula in the US, you don't get a prize for existence.

What a coincidence. I just had a run-in about this that was resolved with my awesome pre-knowledge. I informed them of the case Lipp v. Morris (1978) in Federal Court that struck down NJ's requirement to stand. All I had to do was produce a written statement so they could defuse the situation more easily. (A kid had become "confrontational", although IMO, he didn't pose a threat to me at all.) My dad was a bit miffed and said that I would be screwed if I ever ran for office and they dug this up. First, there's no record of it. Second, they can't get these records. Third, no one cares about anything before college except your general childhood.

You don't need to stand. You don't need to recite it. It's false patriotism and absolutely absurd. You are more patriotic by refusing to stand and/or recite because you are exercising your First Amendment rights and stan...sitting down for your beliefs.

What a coincidence. I just had a run-in about this that was resolved with my awesome pre-knowledge. I informed them of the case Lipp v. Morris (1978) in Federal Court that struck down NJ's requirement to stand. All I had to do was produce a written statement so they could defuse the situation more easily. (A kid had become "confrontational", although IMO, he didn't pose a threat to me at all.) My dad was a bit miffed and said that I would be screwed if I ever ran for office and they dug this up. First, there's no record of it. Second, they can't get these records. Third, no one cares about anything before college except your general childhood.

You don't need to stand. You don't need to recite it. It's false patriotism and absolutely absurd. You are more patriotic by refusing to stand and/or recite because you are exercising your First Amendment rights and stan...sitting down for your beliefs.

Thanks! And don't worry I would still vote for you (if I am not living with my companion sheep in iceland) if I discovered you didn't say the pledge!

I must admit I find the idea of pledging allegiance to a flag a little odd. Same as I wouldn't see the point in declaring war on a flag or refusing to return it's phone calls. I could kind of see the idea behind a statement of shared ideals (I quite like the idea of declaring commitment to justice and liberty to all), however only after you've had a chance to get to the stage of appreciating what this means and agreeing with it. Even then it should always be a personal choice - freedom of expression etc

Come to think of in, after reading my own rambling, I think it makes more sense just to live by the principles you feel are right, and fight for them where they are lacking. If you do that there is no need to make a public statement of these beliefs.

A handful of our politicians over here (UK) recently suggested a pledge of allegiance to the queen as a coming of age ceremony for our kids. I think I still hear traces of the uproarious laughter that proposal was greeted with.

The pledge of allegiance is meaningless. Kids don't know what it means. Around the same time that the majority of kids began to develop the skills necessary to employ critical thinking to the pledge of allegiance, my school stopped requiring it. How convenient. Now of course, most students never develop critical thinking. That's why Fox News is so popular. But I digress.

Say it. If you're a kid, say it. It isn't worth an argument. It's a a nursery rhyme. It has the same weight as 'Hey Diddle Diddle'. But if you decide not to say it, shut the fuck up. It's nobody's business but your own. I see no reason to rub it in the faces of the kids who continue to say it because they either don't know what the hell they're saying, or developed critical thinking early(as I did) and realized that it had the same impact on one's life as 'Hey Diddle Diddle'.

Is this shit really worth an argument?

I would think it is, yes.

I find it amusing that Trollgaard, a self proclaimed anarcho-primitivist, is a nationalist.

I find it amusing that an anarcho-primitivist uses a computer.

Congradulations. You are Athiest and Vegan. You get a prize.


And just between you and me, Canada isn't all it's cracked up to be. They still have lots of problems. Just like us. Might I suggest Switzerland as an alternative? At least their milk doesn't come in bags.

I don't think a vegan is going to care how their milk comes . . .

Not American. The pledge means squat to me.

The pledge of allegiance is meaningless. Kids don't know what it means. Around the same time that the majority of kids began to develop the skills necessary to employ critical thinking to the pledge of allegiance, my school stopped requiring it. How convenient. Now of course, most students never develop critical thinking. That's why Fox News is so popular. But I digress.

Say it. If you're a kid, say it. It isn't worth an argument. It's a a nursery rhyme. It has the same weight as 'Hey Diddle Diddle'. But if you decide not to say it, shut the fuck up. It's nobody's business but your own. I see no reason to rub it in the faces of the kids who continue to say it because they either don't know what the hell they're saying, or developed critical thinking early(as I did) and realized that it had the same impact on one's life as 'Hey Diddle Diddle'.

Is this shit really worth an argument?

*unfurls really big American flag behind LG*
*Turns on fan to make it wave*
*hums Battle Hymn of the Republic*

I pledge allegiance to no one.

I pledge allegiance to your mother! Booyah!


sorrysorrysorrysorrysorry I couldn't resist sorrysorrysorrysorry

Not American. The pledge means squat to me.

I am an American. It still means squat.

I'm not an american, the pledge seems ridiculous to me though.

I am an American. It still means squat.

;)

*unfurls really big American flag behind LG*
*Turns on fan to make it wave*
*hums Battle Hymn of the Republic*

I am a goofball and I approve this message. :)

I don't care about the "under God" thing, I'm a Christian, but I'm not going to pledge my allegiance to an inanimate object. If they took out "the flag of", then I'd say the Pledge of Allegiance. I just consider pledging allegiance to a flag as flag worship.

I don't care about the "under God" thing, I'm a Christian, but I'm not going to pledge my allegiance to an inanimate object. If they took out "the flag of", then I'd say the Pledge of Allegiance. I just consider pledging allegiance to a flag as flag worship.

Extremist Alert!!!! RUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am a goofball and I approve this message. :)

I am honored to have served my lord in a pleasing manner.

that sounds dirty.

I proudly said pledge every day of high school. Hand over heart, eyes on the flag, and standing up straight. I'd still say it if I was still in high school.

So now that you're out of high school, you won't say it?

If you miss it that much, there are many fraternal organizations (Masons, Elks, Lions, Kiwanis, Moose, Eagles, Beatles, Stones, Water Buffalo, whatever) that would be glad to have you. Most of them start their meetings with the Pledge.

I said it because I liked saying it. I love my country. Taking the 10 seconds to stand and honor my country in the morning is the least I can do. I didn't need to prove anything to anyone.

I think that mouthing something before being able to fully understand it is not so much honoring one's country as it is paying lip service. I'm with Lewis Black, who says that the Pledge is like coffee for kids. They say the Pledge, and it reminds them that they're awake and in school: "Can we say it again? I need another cup!"

What is left to like in this country right now? We are in a pointless war. Our leader is an imbecile and our economy is faltering.

I would like to love America but it is really fucking hard.

And how does that affect your relationship with your friends and family? If you can't find something to love about the USA, you're not looking nearly hard enough. I love my country. I'm no fan of its government and many of its institutions, but those aren't the people.

I'd rather live here, because it's one of the few places where I could say something like "G.W.Bush is to politics as G.W.Bailey is to acting", and not be jailed for it. That said, I'm not going to mix politics and religion with a side order of mindless yammering by endorsing the Pledge.

How do I honor my country? Paying my fair share of taxes (something many large conglomerate corporations can't seem to manage from offshore addresses), thanking those I see in uniform, doing my best in my profession every day, and trying to be the best neighbor and citizen I can without compromising principles or integrity.

We do what is in our national interest to do, which is secure oil as cheaply as possible, as that is what our economy runs on: cheap energy, which at the moment means cheap oil.

Which is why, at the moment, the economy is in recession. Shortsighted reliance on a resource that had no way of remaining cheap is just plain stupid. And greedy. Unfortunately, America produces those two faults in abundance.

About the death penalty: nope. It is not barbaric in the slightest. It is the highest punishment for the most heinous crimes.

That's one way to look at it.

No. You think wrong.

You honestly typed that? I don't need to do sit ups today, I've laughed too much.

3. Yes we have poor people. We also have many insanely rich people. It probably averages out nicely.

Yes, 'cause it's the average that matters to those not eating tonight. :rolleyes:

The public lost confidence about Somalia.

I'll have to disagree there. Those who planned that debacle didn't know what they were getting into, and likely didn't listen to any dissenting intelligence reports, just like nobody listened to those generals who told Rumsfeld that we'd need 300 to 400 thousand troops to stabilize Iraq. This is why our leaders suck -- they simply refuse to hear anything that doesn't jibe with their take on an issue, and refuse further to admit when they were wrong. That applies no matter what color their state or what initial comes before the state and after their name.

Part of that, of course, is that media pundits and other critics do not allow for someone in office to change their mind or admit they were incorrect because it takes but one mistake at the right time to fry someone's career. Would you want to come out strong on something or reverse yourself when given the right proof and have to do it on national TV? In an election year? No, the wrong people are choosing politics now. People who are creative with the truth (Hillary's "dash" into Sarajevo, McCain's continual covering up of POW/MIA truths, and Obama's tap dance about Reverend Wright). These are the candidates we deserve when we place too much importance on something as trivial and misguided as the Pledge of Allegiance (or it's sister issue, flag burning).

I will work on the campaign of the first candidate who tells the actual truth, even when it's unflattering. I am not holding my breath.

Oh, well that type of crap has been going on for years. Everyone always bitches about subsidies. Especially to farmers. But hey, if no else is going lower subsidies to their farmers, why should we? Food is the most important thing a nation can have in abundance.

Ah, but food is no longer important, is it? Not when farmers all over the world are switching to corn or cane in order to meet the folly-laden demands for ethanol, and not growing food for actual nutrition anymore. Ethanol is a boondoggle masterminded by the other powerful lobby, agriculture, which has been hand-in-hand with petroleum interests since petrol-based fertilizers were invented. Yup. We consume oil in more ways than one.

The pledge of allegiance is meaningless. Kids don't know what it means. Around the same time that the majority of kids began to develop the skills necessary to employ critical thinking to the pledge of allegiance, my school stopped requiring it. How convenient. Now of course, most students never develop critical thinking. That's why Fox News is so popular. But I digress.

Say it. If you're a kid, say it. It isn't worth an argument. It's a a nursery rhyme. It has the same weight as 'Hey Diddle Diddle'. But if you decide not to say it, shut the fuck up. It's nobody's business but your own. I see no reason to rub it in the faces of the kids who continue to say it because they either don't know what the hell they're saying, or developed critical thinking early(as I did) and realized that it had the same impact on one's life as 'Hey Diddle Diddle'.

Is this shit really worth an argument?

[/THREAD.]

I voted political reasons. Specifically, I don't live in America.

I proudly said pledge every day of high school. Hand over heart, eyes on the flag, and standing up straight. I'd still say it if I was still in high school.
Why don't you still say it?
being British I have never had to experience this problem (hence why we didn't want you in our empire!) however no the only flags that should be respected are those on fire or something

or say this:



and video what happens

Gigantic levels of win.

So now that you're out of high school, you won't say it?

If you miss it that much, there are many fraternal organizations (Masons, Elks, Lions, Kiwanis, Moose, Eagles, Beatles, Stones, Water Buffalo, whatever) that would be glad to have you. Most of them start their meetings with the Pledge.

I thought those organizations were for old men. As such, I wasn't really thinking of looking to joining one for many, many years.



I think that mouthing something before being able to fully understand it is not so much honoring one's country as it is paying lip service. I'm with Lewis Black, who says that the Pledge is like coffee for kids. They say the Pledge, and it reminds them that they're awake and in school: "Can we say it again? I need another cup!"

What is the age when people understand the pledge? I think anyone in high school should be able to understand the pledge. Most middle schoolers, and I'd wager many elementary schoolers would understand the pledge, too.


How do I honor my country? Paying my fair share of taxes (something many large conglomerate corporations can't seem to manage from offshore addresses), thanking those I see in uniform, doing my best in my profession every day, and trying to be the best neighbor and citizen I can without compromising principles or integrity.

Same with me.



Which is why, at the moment, the economy is in recession. Shortsighted reliance on a resource that had no way of remaining cheap is just plain stupid. And greedy. Unfortunately, America produces those two faults in abundance.


Agreed.


That's one way to look at it.

Yup.



You honestly typed that? I don't need to do sit ups today, I've laughed too much.

I said that with less than 100% seriousness.


Yes, 'cause it's the average that matters to those not eating tonight. :rolleyes:
I was only speaking in the terms of money.



I'll have to disagree there. Those who planned that debacle didn't know what they were getting into, and likely didn't listen to any dissenting intelligence reports, just like nobody listened to those generals who told Rumsfeld that we'd need 300 to 400 thousand troops to stabilize Iraq. This is why our leaders suck -- they simply refuse to hear anything that doesn't jibe with their take on an issue, and refuse further to admit when they were wrong. That applies no matter what color their state or what initial comes before the state and after their name.

Hmm, makes sense to me. Point conceded.


Ah, but food is no longer important, is it? Not when farmers all over the world are switching to corn or cane in order to meet the folly-laden demands for ethanol, and not growing food for actual nutrition anymore. Ethanol is a boondoggle masterminded by the other powerful lobby, agriculture, which has been hand-in-hand with petroleum interests since petrol-based fertilizers were invented. Yup. We consume oil in more ways than one.


Well, if no one grows food, everyone's fucked.

And yes, with oil prices rising, food prices will also rise (they already have started to).

I cannot fathom how people cannot see that food production is integral to every nation.

Why don't you still say it?

I'm not in high school any longer. We don't say it at college, and we don't say it at work.

I suppose I could put a flag in my room and say it when I wake up...that would be a little odd, however.

*snip*
The irony of this all, interestingly enough, is that the Founding Fathers and the Revolutionaries were the ones to fall out of step of "King and Crown", if you will.

Life swings many subtle ironies.

Subtle like a 120 miles/hour hammer hitting a smooth face.

As for myself, we here in Canada don't really have a big "let's be patriotic" environment. The only "patriotic" people that I can think of are in my province (Quebec), and they are call themselves so because they love the province and want it separated from the rest of the "fucking" Canada.

I'm not with them, though, I'm patriotic to no country, even though I kinda like our provincial culture. And if some teacher wanted to force a kid to say "the pledge", it would probably turn into a major society issue and put oil on the separation fiery debate.

I thought those organizations were for old men. As such, I wasn't really thinking of looking to joining one for many, many years.

Not at all. My brother was Kiwanian at age 25 when he got out of the Army. I regularly helped my father when I was a kid. It was cool to do stuff like haul junk away from the homes of the infirm or invalid, design and build a trail system in the back 20 acres of the local elementary school. I like helping people in any way I can, 'cause I can't write checks (no charitably disposable income yet). Those organizations are indeed populated with older people, and not all men, but they always welcome "new blood" and strong backs to help them service the community.

What is the age when people understand the pledge? I think anyone in high school should be able to understand the pledge. Most middle schoolers, and I'd wager many elementary schoolers would understand the pledge, too.

We may be talking across purposes -- when I say "understand", I don't just mean "know what the words mean", I mean understand the meanings, literal and implied, behind the pledge. For example, I believe that "liberty and justice for all" is important, but that "under God" is irrelevant, so I don't say that part. I'm not sure a middle schooler can make that distinction, or at least not the majority of them.

I said that with less than 100% seriousness.

Fair enough.

I was only speaking in the terms of money.

Huh? How is that any different from my point? If you have no money, the "average" doesn't mean squat to you, does it? Having money means eating tonight, usually.

Hmm, makes sense to me. Point conceded.

Well alright then.

Well, if no one grows food, everyone's fucked.

And yes, with oil prices rising, food prices will also rise (they already have started to).

I cannot fathom how people cannot see that food production is integral to every nation.

I agree with you completely. Oil prices rising affects food in more than one way. Not just transportation/distribution, but fertilizers...it still sometimes blows my mind that we eat oil, too. It makes me wonder how alarmed any alien civilization monitoring us would be at our "eggs-in-one-basket" approach to natural resources.

While I said the pledge, and still do if the event arrives during which it might be said, I don't put quite as much value in it as some people do. I mean, it was a little gimmick cooked up by a socialist children's author, or somesuch nonsense, around the turn of the last century to inspire social solidarity amongst children. It's not some sort of prayer, and not saying it is not some form of treason, and there are other, more sincere ways to express your appreciation for one's country, and the sacrifices that have been made on your behalf in the past than merely reciting the pledge in the morning.

My high school German teacher, for instance, felt that the weekly recitation of the pledge that began after the September Eleventh attacks devalued it, and what meaning it might have had, and turned it into merely another routine part of the morning announcements rigamarole, which we already despised.

I don't care about the "under God" thing, I'm a Christian, but I'm not going to pledge my allegiance to an inanimate object. If they took out "the flag of", then I'd say the Pledge of Allegiance. I just consider pledging allegiance to a flag as flag worship.

"under god" is forcing religion on children that are highly vulnerable to the bullshit they are being fed.

Not at all. My brother was Kiwanian at age 25 when he got out of the Army. I regularly helped my father when I was a kid. It was cool to do stuff like haul junk away from the homes of the infirm or invalid, design and build a trail system in the back 20 acres of the local elementary school. I like helping people in any way I can, 'cause I can't write checks (no charitably disposable income yet). Those organizations are indeed populated with older people, and not all men, but they always welcome "new blood" and strong backs to help them service the community.

Interesting. I'll have to look into this.



We may be talking across purposes -- when I say "understand", I don't just mean "know what the words mean", I mean understand the meanings, literal and implied, behind the pledge. For example, I believe that "liberty and justice for all" is important, but that "under God" is irrelevant, so I don't say that part. I'm not sure a middle schooler can make that distinction, or at least not the majority of them.

Hmm. Maybe not early middle schoolers, but many 8th graders should.


Huh? How is that any different from my point? If you have no money, the "average" doesn't mean squat to you, does it? Having money means eating tonight, usually.

I meant something like the income levels: we have a lot of people who earn very little, but we also have a lot of people who earn a whole lot, so the average income is decent for the nation. I brought this up because someone was saying that we aren't a rich nation, or something.



I agree with you completely. Oil prices rising affects food in more than one way. Not just transportation/distribution, but fertilizers...it still sometimes blows my mind that we eat oil, too. It makes me wonder how alarmed any alien civilization monitoring us would be at our "eggs-in-one-basket" approach to natural resources.

Oil makes everything taste good! ;)

And without the fertilizers we wouldn't be able to grow as much food, so if/when oil declines, fertilizers will decline...meaning food will decline...means...bad times ahead...:(

Interesting. I'll have to look into this.




Hmm. Maybe not early middle schoolers, but many 8th graders should.



I meant something like the income levels: we have a lot of people who earn very little, but we also have a lot of people who earn a whole lot, so the average income is decent for the nation. I brought this up because someone was saying that we aren't a rich nation, or something.




Oil makes everything taste good! ;)

And without the fertilizers we wouldn't be able to grow as much food, so if/when oil declines, fertilizers will decline...meaning food will decline...means...bad times ahead...:(

Per capita the United States is number 9, when it comes to income. (2006)

Per capita the United States is number 6, in Purchusing Power Parity. (2007)

Luxembourg is number 1 in both.

But Gross Domestic Product is first in the world by far, even with the recent economic issues.

"under god" is forcing religion on children that are highly vulnerable to the bullshit they are being fed.

I don't know about "forcing". As I recall it, it was more like "introducing". It made me ask questions, and pointed ones, at that. "Who is this God that we're all under? Is he blue, and that's why the sky is, too?" Stuff like that. I don't think immediate reactions to any mention of God becoming like mentioning "fire" in a crowded theater is going to help this issue at all. I don't agree with that 1954 inclusion, but I don't have to me a knee-jerk reactionary to it, either.

I meant something like the income levels: we have a lot of people who earn very little, but we also have a lot of people who earn a whole lot, so the average income is decent for the nation. I brought this up because someone was saying that we aren't a rich nation, or something.

Things like cost of living, number of kids, and many other factors can alter this idea quite a bit. Someone making 100k/year sounds like "a lot" unless he's got six kids...and any of them have chronic health issues...and so forth.

Oil makes everything taste good! ;)

And without the fertilizers we wouldn't be able to grow as much food, so if/when oil declines, fertilizers will decline...meaning food will decline...means...bad times ahead...:(

Exactly. All the more reason to look at the ethanol boondoggle and knock it off.

Ok... if any of you actually care its update time...

I sat down and ignored his request for me to stand for the pledge.

I was sent to the office and my principal for the most part backed me up, he believed that he could make me stand however I cited Lipp v Morris and I got into no trouble.

However my parents, who are right-wing nutjobs, flipped their lid and grounded me for not saying the "pledge".

Truly senseless...

So now that you're out of high school, you won't say it?

Trollgaard obviously owes no allegiance to a country that doesn't provide publicly funded post-secondary education. ;)

Ok... if any of you actually care its update time...

I sat down and ignored his request for me to stand for the pledge.

I was sent to the office and my principal for the most part backed me up, he believed that he could make me stand however I cited Lipp v Morris and I got into no trouble.

However my parents, who are right-wing nutjobs, flipped their lid and grounded me for not saying the "pledge".

Truly senseless...

You need to get emancipated lol.

Where's the option for not standing because I don't care?

Sometimes I will conform to social norms and stand, but I don't like lame rituals. I don't have to pledge allegiance to anything, I can ally with whatever I want or nothing at all.

Haha. My parents are not bad on some things. However on matters of politics we can not be any more different. They are blind patriots and are unaccepting of anyone different from them.

Haha. My parents are not bad on some things. However on matters of politics we can not be any more different. They are blind patriots and are unaccepting of anyone different from them.

And that's where anarchist logos and communist slogans come in! :p

And that's where anarchist logos and communist slogans come in! :p


*pulls out texts on Marxism*

However I am not very anarchist, I am more into Socialism than anarchism.

Alright old issue, sorry... However it was recently brought up in my life...

I don't say the pledge or really awknowledge the flag during the pledge, I am really pissed at the United States right now, and it has "under god" in it, I am atheist.

Anyone I got into a heated argument with my Algebra teacher over my "un-patriotism".

Where do you stand on this issue?

Think it over again when you grow up.

Haha. My parents are not bad on some things. However on matters of politics we can not be any more different. They are blind patriots and are unaccepting of anyone different from them.

Sounds like the blind one isn't your parents. Try listening to them. They probably know more than you do.

Think it over again when you grow up.

Grow up to be a mindless conservative?

Mitanni I have seen many of your views and you are immensely foolish.

Sounds like the blind one isn't your parents. Try listening to them. They probably know more than you do.

Peace is War! Freedom is Slavery! Bigotry is Enlightenment!

This is what Geroge W. Bush thinks of The Pledge:
http://www.lolviral.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/bush-finger.png

I am a goofball and I approve this message. :)

I'd vote for him :D

Ok... if any of you actually care its update time...

I sat down and ignored his request for me to stand for the pledge.

I was sent to the office and my principal for the most part backed me up, he believed that he could make me stand however I cited Lipp v Morris and I got into no trouble.

However my parents, who are right-wing nutjobs, flipped their lid and grounded me for not saying the "pledge".

Truly senseless...

There's your problem. That probably sounded to the principal like you were lecturing him on con. law, which is not good to do with authority figures. You should have just layed your case on the table, then he might have gone along with it.

That, and find things to do in your room. See now I've solved all your problems...:fluffle:

*pulls out texts on Marxism*

However I am not very anarchist, I am more into Socialism than anarchism.

So your parents know you clearly don't share their political views, yet they try to force you into sharing such views?

I've seen spitting in the face for much less. Not that I suggest it, it's just that the whole story seems a bit wrong to me. I was a bit of...an obstinate bastard when it came to my freedom not so long ago, so I clearly would've ran off, but that's just me and now that I think about it it would've been silly.

Nowadays, if I (somehow) found myself in a similar situation, I would probably do everything that doesn't require me to actually lie about my views, just to make people shut up.

Click Stand;13609309']There's your problem. That probably sounded to the principal like you were lecturing him on con. law, which is not good to do with authority figures. You should have just layed your case on the table, then he might have gone along with it.

That, and find things to do in your room. See now I've solved all your problems...:fluffle:

Well my principal is a highly intelligent man that I do respect and he was actually on my side. Lipp v Morris was just a way to solidify my case...

So your parents know you clearly don't share their political views, yet they try to force you into sharing such views?

I've seen spitting in the face for much less. Not that I suggest it, it's just that the whole story seems a bit wrong to me. I was a bit of...an obstinate bastard when it came to my freedom not so long ago, so I clearly would've ran off, but that's just me and now that I think about it it would've been silly.

Nowadays, if I (somehow) found myself in a similar situation, I would probably do everything that doesn't require me to actually lie about my views, just to make people shut up.

Well I am very obstinate, however I do not believe I would take it as far as to run away...

They will not break or change me.

However looking at it from their perspective they rose almost the exact opposite of what they were intending XD. I was meant to be a quaint little christian conservative that chomps on animal carcass (I'm vegan). And now that I am a "Libby" as they would call it they are disappointed.

They will not break or change me.


Never say never...


However looking at it from their perspective they rose almost the exact opposite of what they were intending XD. I was meant to be a quaint little christian conservative that chomps on animal carcass (I'm vegan). And now that I am a "Libby" as they would call it they are disappointed.

Yes, looks like its hard for them, too. That's a very common problem in our society (Quebec, Canada) and probably all over the world. What I've always said is bear with it and if you're still angry at them for it when you're 18, make a point by moving out on your very birthday.

I rest assured that you won't be, though there are always exceptions.

Never say never...



Yes, looks like its hard for them, too. That's a very common problem in our society (Quebec, Canada) and probably all over the world. What I've always said is bear with it and if you're still angry at them for it when you're 18, make a point by moving out on your very birthday.

I rest assured that you won't be, though there are always exceptions.

I'm not angry at them as individuals. All i ask from them is to simply leave me alone. However they see my not saying the pledge as an "embarrassment".

Alright...

Apparently I am not permitted to enter his class until after the pledge has been said. Unless I wish to relent and say the pledge.

A whole lot of hoopla over a dumb prayer to a piece of cloth.

But whatever floats his boat

I give the flag the finger in my classroom when the teacher is facing the other direction. :upyours: And sometimes me and my friends do the Nazi salute during the pledge because the whole damn country is run by fascist bastards, so it is appropriate.

They will not break or change me.

sounds like your a Linkin Park (http://youtube.com/watch?v=A5sx7OFPGOY) fan :p(if you are I hope they make you pledge to every flag!)

Apparently I am not permitted to enter his class until after the pledge has been said. Unless I wish to relent and say the pledge.

don't and use the free time for smoking, that way you can be that rebel guy all the girls want :)

I give the flag the finger in my classroom when the teacher is facing the other direction.

so its your fault America has been going around all pissed off like!

edit: this thread is sooo taking me back *sits in rocking chair on porch drinking scotch*

sounds like your a Linkin Park (http://youtube.com/watch?v=A5sx7OFPGOY) fan :p(if you are I hope they make you pledge to every flag!)



don't and use the free time for smoking, that way you can be that rebel guy all the girls want :)



so its your fault America has been going around all pissed off like!

edit: this thread is sooo taking me back *sits in rocking chair on porch drinking scotch*

I actually hate linkin park.

Oh and I will be sure to do that.

*rolls joint*

We plunged Mohicans, to the slag, for the unmined crates of the minerals, unto the Republicans, for vicious stands, one corporation, underground, invisible, with libertine adjustments for all.

We plunged Mohicans, to the slag, for the unmined crates of the minerals, unto the Republicans, for vicious stands, one corporation, underground, invisible, with libertine adjustments for all.

Now that was clever XD

I might try reciting that.

Get me a nice 10 day suspension but whatever XD

I give the flag the finger in my classroom when the teacher is facing the other direction. :upyours: And sometimes me and my friends do the Nazi salute during the pledge because the whole damn country is run by fascist bastards, so it is appropriate.

Do you throw matches at the Jewish students too?

I say it with certain altercations (remove "under God" - we don't have to differentiate ourselves from the 'omg godless commies!!!11one!!' anymore, and "liberty and justice for the lobbyists" - a more accurate reflection of US government.)

I dont like saying it cuz I am lazy.

I dont like saying it cuz I am lazy.

And a commie.

And a commie.

But of course, they are the same thing. As everyone knows, communists are all lazy pigs, sucking the lifeblood out of the proletariat.

I never stood, but I wasnt a dousche about it and didnt draw attention to myself and grandstand about what a political activist I was.

The most attention it ever caused was a sub in my music theory class asked me if I hated America. I told her yes hoping that would end the conversation there. She kicked me out of the class. I simply went to the principal (who I had a good relationship with) and told him.


She never subbed there again.

But of course, they are the same thing. As everyone knows, communists are all lazy pigs, sucking the lifeblood out of the proletariat.

I think those are the upper class commies.

If you don't want to say the pledge, then don't! That's your right, but don't look down on us that do. That's our right!!

If you don't want to say the pledge, then don't! That's your right, but don't look down on us that do. That's our right!!

why shouldn't we look down on you? It would seem that that's our right as well.

why shouldn't we look down on you? It would seem that that's our right as well.

Yea? Yea? What if we look updown all over you? Yea, that's it, we'll look you all over up and down. Then who will be sorry, eh?

Yea? Yea? What if we look updown all over you? Yea, that's it, we'll look you all over up and down. Then who will be sorry, eh?

are you looking at me?

are you looking at me?

Hell yea. I'd like to point out that my hand is on my heart and I am actively reciting the Pledge as well.

Hell yea. I'd like to point out that my hand is on my heart and I am actively reciting the Pledge as well.

I don't think your heart is...you know...um....down there

I don't think your heart is...you know...um....down there

That's where the other hand went you un-American freeloader.

Common knowledge... we always do it when we say the Pledge. True passion for our country ya know.

I never stood, but I wasnt a dousche about it and didnt draw attention to myself and grandstand about what a political activist I was.

The most attention it ever caused was a sub in my music theory class asked me if I hated America. I told her yes hoping that would end the conversation there. She kicked me out of the class. I simply went to the principal (who I had a good relationship with) and told him.


She never subbed there again.

Problem with that is... I have to grandstand.

I am not allowed to sit, when I tried to just quietly sit there he verbally attacked me. He makes me stand out in the hall until the pledge is over.

Quick Question: Is he allowed to do this?

My entire class is on my side, the principal is on my side, and most of my other teachers are on my side. He just cannot get it through his head.

Problem with that is... I have to grandstand.

I am not allowed to sit, when I tried to just quietly sit there he verbally attacked me. He makes me stand out in the hall until the pledge is over.

Quick Question: Is he allowed to do this?

My entire class is on my side, the principal is on my side, and most of my other teachers are on my side. He just cannot get it through his head.

I think he is able to make you stand up, but he has no right to make you say the pledge.

Just stand up and don't say it, there I solved all of your problems again (you can thank me later :fluffle:)

Quick Question: Is he allowed to do this?



No. Unless you are being disruptive.


If the principal is on your side some sort of action will probably be taken.

Click Stand;13615518']I think he is able to make you stand up, but he has no right to make you say the pledge.

Just stand up and don't say it, there I solved all of your problems again (you can thank me later :fluffle:)

He can't make me stand.

I am just gonna go to school tomorrow with a shirt that says "Fuck America" on it... He'll get the picture XD

He can't make me stand.

I am just gonna go to school tomorrow with a shirt that says "Fuck America" on it... He'll get the picture XD

I advise against that, because then you instantly lose having school policy as well as state law on your side.

I advise against that, because then you instantly lose having school policy as well as state law on your side.

Very true... Plus I'd just have to put on another shirt after like 10 minutes...

My principal apparently thinks that my standing in the hall is fair for both involved.

I cannot offend my douche bag of a teacher, and he cannot be offended by my sitting in a desk...

I need to find some kind of evidence that prohibits him from sending me to the hall.

Very true... Plus I'd just have to put on another shirt after like 10 minutes...

My principal apparently thinks that my standing in the hall is fair for both involved.

I cannot offend my douche bag of a teacher, and he cannot be offended by my sitting in a desk...

I need to find some kind of evidence that prohibits him from sending me to the hall.

I would suggest writing the super-intendent...

I would suggest writing the super-intendent...

Another problem.

Our recent superintendent left the school district the beginning of this school year.

We have an interim superintendent that does not wish to do much of anything to piss off or anger ANYONE.

I am not sure if he would even read it...

My last question:

Is he allowed to send me to the hall?

As I am not being disruptive and or inhibiting his ability to teach.

I don't care about the "under God" thing, I'm a Christian, but I'm not going to pledge my allegiance to an inanimate object. If they took out "the flag of", then I'd say the Pledge of Allegiance. I just consider pledging allegiance to a flag as flag worship.

Your are pledging your aliegance to the flag and which it stands, not worshiping it, (the country) and what not. Say if it was attacked you would help protect it.

My last question:

Is he allowed to send me to the hall?

As I am not being disruptive and or inhibiting his ability to teach.


Soley on the grounds of not standing for the pledge? Nope. Not if your just sitting there quitly.

Your are pledging your aliegance to the flag and which it stands, not worshiping it, (the country) and what not. Say if it was attacked you would help protect it.

Nope. Not if I didnt have a really damn good reason or unless the US shaped up and become worthy of me putting my life on the line.

Honestly, I am getting the hell out of America as soon as I can...

This country is far too debauched for me to waste too much time here.

Honestly, I am getting the hell out of America as soon as I can...

This country is far too debauched for me to waste too much time here.
The grass is always greener, I'm afraid.

Besides, debauchery is fun.

Alright old issue, sorry... However it was recently brought up in my life...

I don't say the pledge or really awknowledge the flag during the pledge, I am really pissed at the United States right now, and it has "under god" in it, I am atheist.

Anyone I got into a heated argument with my Algebra teacher over my "un-patriotism".

Where do you stand on this issue?

The situation never occurs for me anymore...

Quite frankly, it depends on wht mood I'm in. Maybe I'll reconize the pledge or if I'm ticked off at some policy, I won't.

The grass is always greener, I'm afraid.

Besides, debauchery is fun.

This is true. No matter where you go, you'll encounter the same problems and the same idiots, or new problems and new idiots.

My problem with the pledge is the "god" part. So I skip just that part. You don't have that as an option, so I didn't vote.

Yeah, I'm an atheist too, and a smart, polite one to boot.

Really, it's easier and safer just to rub the blue mud in your bellybutton and smile vacantly. It does you no harm and keeps you from being noticed, which in social situations is always good.

It's similar to eating with someone who insists on saying grace:

You can make a big to-do about it, proudly proclaim your atheism (basicically making yourself as pushy and annoying a prostheletyzer as the Fundy Christians you despise), and probably not get invited back (or worse, have someone decide you need "saved") and lose out on a supply of meals in the future.

OR

You can bow your head, mumble something quietly (or just listen politely) and think to yourself "cool, free food for nothing."

If you don't believe in God, you can't believe you're going to be punished for praying to the wrong one - prayer being a null activity, it neither helps nor harms you (so it's better than sugar or caffeine or nicotine).

The idea behind the flag, by the way, is that it represents the IDEALS of what America is, whether or not you like the people who happen to be in charge at the moment.

So, if you agree with the ideals, it does you no harm to pledge allegiance to those ideals. If you don't, well... door's to your left.

Ok... if any of you actually care its update time...

I sat down and ignored his request for me to stand for the pledge.

I was sent to the office and my principal for the most part backed me up, he believed that he could make me stand however I cited Lipp v Morris and I got into no trouble.

However my parents, who are right-wing nutjobs, flipped their lid and grounded me for not saying the "pledge".

Truly senseless...

Okay.

I get it -- you're a thinker. You do not wish to conform. You and Ralph Waldo Emerson are pals.

I have to ask though, as much as I agree with you on principle, is this going to matter AT ALL once you're out of that class or out of school? I ask because I believe that there are times to stand up and protest and make a scene, and those times call for someone courageous to say something (Dante proposed that the hottest places in Hell were reserved for those who didn't). Is this truly one of those times? Is there some great injustice being done by merely standing when the class stands? Is it some immense imposition unto you to do so? Do you even have to say a word when standing? Hell, I'd make up my owen versions (nothing as clever as the one posted a bit ago), or after "liberty and justice for all", I'd add "except [oppressed minority of the current news cycle]" under my breath while the noise of 30 kids sitting covered it.

Haha. My parents are not bad on some things. However on matters of politics we can not be any more different. They are blind patriots and are unaccepting of anyone different from them.

Okay, then that's your parents. You inherited some of that by being blindly unaccepting of the fact that there are people who believe deeply in the principles espoused by the Pledge. Tolerance works both ways, and it's called compromise. Instead of making a big deal, you could have met your teacher halfway by standing and remaining silent.

Are you the kind of person who, were you ever to find yourself at a church service (say a wedding or funeral if you don't attend on Sundays), and the congregation stood at a certain point, would stay obstinately seated to make a point? A point that isn't really worth making at that time? A point that you KNOW will upset those around you and draw attention to you?

Well I am very obstinate, however I do not believe I would take it as far as to run away...

Good to know you've not completely lost your mind.

They will not break or change me.

Oh, come on. Seriously? You're pulling that level of individualistic rhetoric out for THIS issue? Do you realize how much absolutely NONE of this will matter once you graduate? Standing against a bully or a racist or a clear injustice is one thing, gross defiance on a trivial matter is something else. One takes bravery, courage, and integrity. The other takes being so childishly obstinate that you're basically a toddler testing out "NO!" on your parents for the first time.

Does that mean you're conforming (*shudder!*). No. It means you're going along to get along on an issue of less than microscopic consequence in the grand scheme of things. Teachers and principals can do things like write references and recommendations. It doesn't pay to piss them off without good reason. And here's a secret: most teacher I've known are happy to engage in disagreements with students, so long as the disagreement is engaged in respectfully. The better part is this: if you engage respectfully and the adult does not -- people notice. Not everyone, of course, but you'd be surprised at how far your point can be taken if you make it calmly and respectfully and not in open defiance of someone with authority (however petty that authority might be).

However looking at it from their perspective they rose almost the exact opposite of what they were intending XD. I was meant to be a quaint little christian conservative that chomps on animal carcass (I'm vegan). And now that I am a "Libby" as they would call it they are disappointed.

Then that's their problem, and from what little I've seen of you, their loss. Let me re-state that open defiance of petty authority is almost never worth it, because the majority of this culture worships the pecking order, right or wrong. Your job, should you choose to want to make a difference in that fight, is not to get kicked out of class or suspended, but to work on getting those structures changed by figuring out how to best present your point without making the person with the authority feel like he's been defied. Then your next job is to get yourself into a position where you get to BE the authority. That's actually one of the smaller reasons I became a teacher.

Alright...

Apparently I am not permitted to enter his class until after the pledge has been said. Unless I wish to relent and say the pledge.

A whole lot of hoopla over a dumb prayer to a piece of cloth.

But whatever floats his boat

A whole lot of hoopla over not standing up for ten seconds. But, whatever floats your boat.

Perspective is everything.

I give the flag the finger in my classroom when the teacher is facing the other direction. :upyours: And sometimes me and my friends do the Nazi salute during the pledge because the whole damn country is run by fascist bastards, so it is appropriate.

:rolleyes:

Yeah. THAT'LL show 'em. Crawfonton, is the above post the kind of mindless, uninformed nonconformity you really want to be a part of?

Now that was clever XD

I might try reciting that.

Get me a nice 10 day suspension but whatever XD

Probably not, actually. Were it my classroom, I'd give you points for creativity and call it even -- you stood (the bare minimum for respect), and you got to express yourself. Fair enough. And if you recite it at the same droning volume and tone with which I usually hear the Pledge recited, there's no way he'll even know what you're saying. Try it -- you'll baffle him as to "why the change of heart" when you stand, and get in your personal dig at the same time.

I never stood, but I wasnt a douche about it and didnt draw attention to myself and grandstand about what a political activist I was.

The most attention it ever caused was a sub in my music theory class asked me if I hated America. I told her yes hoping that would end the conversation there. She kicked me out of the class. I simply went to the principal (who I had a good relationship with) and told him.


She never subbed there again.

^ THIS.

Problem with that is... I have to grandstand.

I am not allowed to sit, when I tried to just quietly sit there he verbally attacked me. He makes me stand out in the hall until the pledge is over.

Quick Question: Is he allowed to do this?

My entire class is on my side, the principal is on my side, and most of my other teachers are on my side. He just cannot get it through his head.

One more time -- ten seconds, and you don't even have to say anything. Ample compromise on the part of petty authority. Take it and just get over that hurdle until you're out of his classroom. Further pressing the issue will make you look worse than he will, regardless of who's on your side. Your principal wants everyone to be satisfied, and the teacher has granted that you needn't recite, merely stand. Great things are accomplished with compromise. Nothing is accomplished with pointless, prideful obstinacy.

Click Stand;13615518']I think he is able to make you stand up, but he has no right to make you say the pledge.

Just stand up and don't say it, there I solved all of your problems again (you can thank me later :fluffle:)

^ THIS, TOO.

No. Unless you are being disruptive.


If the principal is on your side some sort of action will probably be taken.

He can't make me stand.

I am just gonna go to school tomorrow with a shirt that says "Fuck America" on it... He'll get the picture XD

:rolleyes:

I advise against that, because then you instantly lose having school policy as well as state law on your side.

^ AND THIS.

Honestly, I am getting the hell out of America as soon as I can...

This country is far too debauched for me to waste too much time here.

Debauched? "Indulging in or characterized by sensual pleasures to a degree perceived to be morally harmful"? That may be true, but what has that got to do with the Pledge?

I understand dissatisfaction and the desire for rebellion, but without a little reason, it's basically masturbation. You don't believe it, but you'll understand that someday, too.

My problem with the pledge is the "god" part. So I skip just that part. You don't have that as an option, so I didn't vote.

^ AAAAND THIS.

You've had lots of class-A NSG pundits offer you their points of view. I hope you take them into account. In the end, how this plays out is entirely up to you. You can save the passive resistance for causes that matter when you have an actual chance of doing something about something, or you can be childishly stubborn and make your life in that class (and therefore school) a deliberate hassle.

Yeah, I'm an atheist too, and a smart, polite one to boot.

Really, it's easier and safer just to rub the blue mud in your bellybutton and smile vacantly. It does you no harm and keeps you from being noticed, which in social situations is always good.

It's similar to eating with someone who insists on saying grace:

You can make a big to-do about it, proudly proclaim your atheism (basicically making yourself as pushy and annoying a prostheletyzer as the Fundy Christians you despise), and probably not get invited back (or worse, have someone decide you need "saved") and lose out on a supply of meals in the future.

OR

You can bow your head, mumble something quietly (or just listen politely) and think to yourself "cool, free food for nothing."

If you don't believe in God, you can't believe you're going to be punished for praying to the wrong one - prayer being a null activity, it neither helps nor harms you (so it's better than sugar or caffeine or nicotine).

The idea behind the flag, by the way, is that it represents the IDEALS of what America is, whether or not you like the people who happen to be in charge at the moment.

So, if you agree with the ideals, it does you no harm to pledge allegiance to those ideals. If you don't, well... door's to your left.

There y'go. Well said.

Quite frankly, it depends on wht mood I'm in. Maybe I'll reconize the pledge or if I'm ticked off at some policy, I won't.

Yes, because pledging to the concept of "liberty and justice for all" (I don't utter the "under God" part) has ANYthing to do with current policy decisions. If I disagree with the sitting President or Congress or the Supreme Court, how does petulantly not standing for the Pledge do anything but piss off those I might have to convince of my point?

To me, one of the most mature and thoughtful things a person can do is to disagree strongly with someone and still have the integrity to offer them basic respect and consideration. Look at it this way -- if I'm Barack Obama, and I'm vehemently opposed to something Bush has done or is doing, how am I ever going to win anyone over to my cause if I take out my displeasure and disagreement on the nation's symbols and customs? The flag stands for EVERYONE, and the best thing you can do to a patriot when you disagree with them is REMIND them of that by showing the expected courtesy when it's called for, and then re-launching your discussion when the Pledge, Anthem or whatever is happening is over.

Deliberate disregard of such customs IMMEDIATELY invalidates anything you have to say in the eyes of those who you are probably going to have to convince. You lose face, and you lose your argument.

In the words of Lewis Black (after comedically ripping Bush and conservatives a new asshole): "Of COURSE I love my country -- where else could I get up here and SAY this shit?"

Now that was clever XD

I might try reciting that.

Get me a nice 10 day suspension but whatever XD
Glad you liked it. Here's another version:

I bled a leech onto the flaps of the untied shoes of a miracle, John Q. Public's, on whom it lands, one naked unshod individual, with livery in doublestitch for all.

I just stand. That's it.

Do you have food to eat? A place to sleep? Plenty of belongings? Electricity? Enough leisure time to use the internet? Going to movies, ball games, concerts, etc?

I have all that without anyone telling me I need to put my hand anywhere or hail anything. I guess we're not falling for that crap a second time.

I know I enjoy the Pax Americana. So do most people throughout the world.

Boy are you in for a surprise.

Alright old issue, sorry... However it was recently brought up in my life...

I don't say the pledge or really awknowledge the flag during the pledge, I am really pissed at the United States right now, and it has "under god" in it, I am atheist.

Anyone I got into a heated argument with my Algebra teacher over my "un-patriotism".

Where do you stand on this issue?


Patriotism is a fools choice. So I appluad you for that, and be an Atheist if thats what you want, don't say the pledge either, but don't get too riled up about it.

By atheist sons go to a Christian school, they have prayer every morning at assembly, I have told them, look down and pretend, don't piss people off, you are only there for 5 years.

i say my own pledge!

i believe in this litterally: "glory not that you love your country, glory in this, that you love all sentient kind".

so instead, when i must or even wish to honor by doing so, i have a pledge of my own that i say in my heart:

i pledge alligence to the world of lananara
and to the way of life for which it stands,
the limitless diversity of an infinite universe
with freedom from stress and mundaneness
for all.

lananara being a world, not neccessarily
the actual name of that world, if it even
has one, that may exist only in my mind,
or may closely resemble one on which i
may have lived in some past life.

the world i live in when i dream at night
and the kind of world i would prefer to
live in awaike in the 'day' (or whenever
i actually am)

i am ashaimed of the physical mundane world nation, both its government
and its culture, i am surrounded by in mundane life. i would wish very much
not to feel that i needed to be. whether there is or is not any other nation
anywhere physically that i would not be on mundane earth is of no pertinence
to my feeling so. if there were, i would certainly prefer to live in it, if i had
the means of getting there, being allowed in, and able to speak or learn its
own language and culture.

i believe in a god that is in no way obligated to resemble what anyone thinks
they know about it.

i would live in a land that does not pretend that it does, nor shove the
automobile down everyone's throat, including their own, as the primary
means of transportation, nor demonize anyone nor anything for not kissing
the ass of symbolic value.

i'm not good at languages however, or at least in this life i have yet to learn
a single other one, most then a few words on topics that intrest me, and at
any rate have no way of getting to other countries, and no solid reason why
any should want to let me settle there.

but i do have, the imaginary country inside of my head, that i believe in.

which no one has ever killed or died for, and i fervently pray, no one ever will.

=^^=
.../\...

As my Algebra teacher told me one day (in HS), we're supposed to at least stand during the pledge, but we don't have to say it, do the hand-over-the-heart thing, think about it, etc. Just stand and be silent. And, of course, I was always the first one to sit back down.
The only reason I even did that much was because it wasn't worth getting into an argument over (especially since it wouldn't achieve much).

Interestingly enough, though, the Photography teacher didn't care, so during the Pledge we just continued chatting and screwing around on the computers and all that (this was the year before I was in Algebra).

Well I understand that I am not acheiving much...

However, it is a little late to back down.

If I submit to My teacher I am a quitter in the eyes of my peers and I wouldn't be able to forgive myself for bowing down to this slimeball.

Anyhow, I couldn't look at myself in the mirror knowing full well that I am supporting the actions of the bush administration and the blood that America has shed for its little over 2 centuries of existence.

Well I understand that I am not acheiving much...

However, it is a little late to back down.

If I submit to My teacher I am a quitter in the eyes of my peers and I wouldn't be able to forgive myself for bowing down to this slimeball.

Anyhow, I couldn't look at myself in the mirror knowing full well that I am supporting the actions of the bush administration and the blood that America has shed for its little over 2 centuries of existence.


Man all countries have shed blood, I wouldn't worry so hard about it.

Man all countries have shed blood, I wouldn't worry so hard about it.

Not all countries go to war because of fictional weapons of mass destruction and murder thousands of innocents.

I am against all war apart from revolution against an oppressive government. (and NO that does not mean "liberating" the Iraqis)

EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutral_nations

Not all countries go to war because of fictional weapons of mass destruction and murder thousands of innocents.

I am against all war apart from revolution against an oppressive government. (and NO that does not mean "liberating" the Iraqis)

Meh my own country did. But the history of all countrys contain bloodshed.

Meh my own country did. But the history of all countries contain bloodshed.

I am sure blood has been spilled in the name of most nations. However that is a far cry from senseless murder.

I am sure blood has been spilled in the name of most nations. However that is a far cry from senseless murder.

Begging the question, is it actually murder, and what set of laws makes it so?

Begging the question, is it actually murder, and what set of laws makes it so?

Allow me to correct myself.

Senseless homicide*

Where do you stand on this issue?

I don't say it BECAUSE I'm a Christian. And, as a teacher, I never made my students say it, or stand up for it, if they could articulate why they were against it. I had a teacher friend who was black and wouldn't say it "until there is 'liberty and justice for all.'"

Historically, I don't think most people would say it if they knew where it came from (http://poor-blogger.blogspot.com/2007/07/sub-deus.html). It was written by a Baptist minister (defrocked for his beliefs) who was a Nationalist Socialist. Originally, the "Nazi" salute was used when saying the pledge. And that "under God" part wasn't introduced until 1954, after the Cold War had begun. Also, I think if a lot of Christians knew what the Founding Fathers actually believed (http://poor-blogger.blogspot.com/2008/02/oprah-american-pope.html) (most were Unitarian or Deist and denied almost everything having to do with Jesus), they might question which "God" it is that we're supposed to be "under."

Stand strong! The law is on your side, here. And even if it weren't, you'd still be in the right. Often, law and right aren't on the same side.

Peace,
Kester

I'm not in school anymore, so I don't think this issue will ever affect me again.

Begging the question, is it actually murder, and what set of laws makes it so?

Heh I would have asked what murder then is not senseless?

I'm not in school anymore, so I don't think this issue will ever affect me again.

Yeah and I think that is what the OP needs to realise. This really is no biggy, keep ya head down, pretend to conform.

After shcool you'll have plenty of time to show the world who you really are. Besides once you haveleft you are no longer bound by the schools petty rules.

After shcool you'll have plenty of time to show the world who you really are. Besides once you haveleft you are no longer bound by the schools petty rules.

That's kind of the point, though, isn't it? So many people are going to end up actually conforming to those rules, not merely "pretending".

That's kind of the point, though, isn't it? So many people are going to end up actually conforming to those rules, not merely "pretending".

Of course not, what make you belive that?

Of course not, what make you belive that?

I'm saying that if all the malleable young'uns go through school swearing allegiance to their country, and seeing everyone else do the same, then they'll probably end up determining that's what should be done.
Don't give people too much credit as individual thinkers. ;)

i believe in a god that is in no way obligated to resemble what anyone thinks they know about it.

Are you farther out than inevitable? Hollow is thy game. Thy thing can come, thy thrill be sung, uncertain, as it is uneven. Give us this day hors d'oeuvres in bed, and forgive us our trash-passing, as we forgive those who have passed trash against us. And need we not enter inflation, but eat liver and onions primeval, for wine is a shingle, on a tower, in a story of our fathers' fathers. Oh man!

I'm saying that if all the malleable young'uns go through school swearing allegiance to their country, and seeing everyone else do the same, then they'll probably end up determining that's what should be done.
Don't give people too much credit as individual thinkers. ;)

Heh and don't give people too little credit, we all think for ourselves.

I'm saying that if all the malleable young'uns go through school swearing allegiance to their country, and seeing everyone else do the same, then they'll probably end up determining that's what should be done.
Don't give people too much credit as individual thinkers. ;)

Sure, there are individual thinkers that never get their thoughts heard if they keep their head down.

I know some of the kids in my class don't want to stand for the pledge, but they do it anyway because they fear retribution.

The pledge is really a very very small issue that has been made a big deal by my school. All though it is only a small issue I choose to not conform because it standing for the pledge goes against my very ideology, thus I would have to conform on other levels as well.

Sure, there are individual thinkers that never get their thoughts heard if they keep their head down.

I know some of the kids in my class don't want to stand for the pledge, but they do it anyway because they fear retribution.

The pledge is really a very very small issue that has been made a big deal by my school. All though it is only a small issue I choose to not conform because it standing for the pledge goes against my very ideology, thus I would have to conform on other levels as well.

this is the great value of having the pledge said every day in school.

it gives you a chance to THINK and decide for yourself whether or not you should conform. when you choose not to, the penalty isnt particularly harsh and if it is it gives you yet another chance to fight asshole adults with right on your side.

Forgive my ignorance, but...
What's the pledge???

I know some of the kids in my class don't want to stand for the pledge, but they do it anyway because they fear retribution.

This is probably not good educational policy. Though some would argue.

Forgive my ignorance, but...
What's the pledge???

The American Pledge of Allegiance: "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Well I understand that I am not acheiving much...

However, it is a little late to back down.

If I submit to My teacher I am a quitter in the eyes of my peers and I wouldn't be able to forgive myself for bowing down to this slimeball.

Actually, you are achieving something, but it's not anything of any use to anybody, unless you actually have the guts to carry it to the next step and sue. It's not actually legal to force you to say the pledge, IF you have a ligitimate objection. So scrounge up the courage and actually do it, or stop wasting your time.

Anyhow, I couldn't look at myself in the mirror knowing full well that I am supporting the actions of the bush administration and the blood that America has shed for its little over 2 centuries of existence.

This a) isn't a very good interpretation about what the pledge means, and b) is a little silly.

Okay, I see you say you're against war in all forms except throwing off oppression. Well, right there you've missed out on war to prevent oppression in the first place. You know, if the country next to you (or a continent away) startes a war, and you fight him BEFORE he invades and conquers you, you're not fighting a war to throw off oppression. You're fighting a preventative war.

If you come to the aid of a friend under attack, you're not throwing off your own oppressors. Do you consider defending your friends immoral?

That said, there never HAS been a war fought for (or against) for entirely altruistic reasons. The people who fight to keep out of wars have their own agendas and profits, and sometimes they're just as willing to stand by and let people die as the "warmongers" are to kill them. See: Rwanda. Darfur, etc.

So, first, if you still think you MUST rebel in this banner (I can't bring myself to call what you're doing "resistance,") you have to decide what you're prepared to do - and endure - to accomplish your goals. You've managed a half-measure at best so far.

Lessons still to be learned here:
1. Don't fight half a battle.
2. If you can't accept the unpleasant consequences of your actions, don't commence an activity that has unpleasant consequences.

I also like how the US is one of the only countries in the Western world to still have balls.

Sure about that? Here, take a simple test:

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc215/Nobel_Hobos/US-cojones.gif

which map is more anatomically correct?

Sure about that? Here, take a simple test:

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc215/Nobel_Hobos/US-cojones.gif

which map is more anatomically correct?

The one on the left of course... :D

Actually, you are achieving something, but it's not anything of any use to anybody, unless you actually have the guts to carry it to the next step and sue. It's not actually legal to force you to say the pledge, IF you have a ligitimate objection. So scrounge up the courage and actually do it, or stop wasting your time.

Actually, this person is not required to say the Pledge at all. No "legitimate objection" is required.


This a) isn't a very good interpretation about what the pledge means, and b) is a little silly.

Actually, it's a terrific interpretation. The Pledge is a promise of allegiance to the State. Allegiance to the State is allegiance to the brutal policies of not only the current administration but those of administrations past. You're saying that there is something redeemable about the largest terror organization on the planet.


Okay, I see you say you're against war in all forms except throwing off oppression. Well, right there you've missed out on war to prevent oppression in the first place. You know, if the country next to you (or a continent away) startes a war, and you fight him BEFORE he invades and conquers you, you're not fighting a war to throw off oppression. You're fighting a preventative war.

Don't try that box. You know that we'd all enlist to go to Darfur it were on the list of places to go and bring freedom along with us, but Darfur is not on the radar. Instead, there is hollow condemnation of human rights violations.

As for the Iraq War, that's a false dichotomy you're trying to establish. The problem with the war is blowing up infrastructure and creating chaos, not throwing off oppression. We are engaged in the former, not the latter.


That said, there never HAS been a war fought for (or against) for entirely altruistic reasons. The people who fight to keep out of wars have their own agendas and profits, and sometimes they're just as willing to stand by and let people die as the "warmongers" are to kill them. See: Rwanda. Darfur, etc.

So is your worldview that we're all too evil to recognize that fascism is a bad idea, so we fought Mussolini and Hitler for "pragmatic" reasons?

Forgive my ignorance, but...
What's the pledge???

We don't forgive ignorance in America...

...we praise it.

Sure, there are individual thinkers that never get their thoughts heard if they keep their head down.

I know some of the kids in my class don't want to stand for the pledge, but they do it anyway because they fear retribution.

The pledge is really a very very small issue that has been made a big deal by my school. All though it is only a small issue I choose to not conform because it standing for the pledge goes against my very ideology, thus I would have to conform on other levels as well.

I don't see the logic in that, pretending to conform means that you actualy would have to conform on other levels?

Explain why?

Are you farther out than inevitable? Hollow is thy game. Thy thing can come, thy thrill be sung, uncertain, as it is uneven. Give us this day hors d'oeuvres in bed, and forgive us our trash-passing, as we forgive those who have passed trash against us. And need we not enter inflation, but eat liver and onions primeval, for wine is a shingle, on a tower, in a story of our fathers' fathers. Oh man!

oh man! lolzers, good one!

hadn't heard that one before. i'm saving it for prosperity.

=^^=
.../\...

Do you throw matches at the Jewish students too?

I don't think you get it, I am not a fascist, my country is fascist. I hate fascists more than everything. In fact I have Jewish best friends.

I seem to remember a hard-fought battle by Britain to hold onto America... A little to much effort someone that doesn't care XD


Well we wanted america for a summa holiday resort- have you ever seen britain in summa, then again we should have put all our soilders into keeping hawi-much better

Sure, there are individual thinkers that never get their thoughts heard if they keep their head down.

I know some of the kids in my class don't want to stand for the pledge, but they do it anyway because they fear retribution.

The pledge is really a very very small issue that has been made a big deal by my school. All though it is only a small issue I choose to not conform because it standing for the pledge goes against my very ideology, thus I would have to conform on other levels as well.

Okay. Your continued dodging of those who've given good explanations for why you should at least stand and get on with life instead of wasting time on this leads me to believe that the "big deal" is being made by you for any number of reasons ranging from being deliberately contrary for fun to needing this kind of attention so bad it's pathetic.

You have many NSG opinions, and most have given elaborate and well-reasoned "meh" responses. There are bigger fish to fry, and guess what? Compromise is what built this nation. So if you can't bring yourself to stand for ten lousy seconds while saying NOTHING during the Pledge, then you're going out of your way to be a dick. This is a cipher of a an issue, and people like you do the cause of real freedom no help by choosing to be this petty. It makes you no better than the talk-radio princes of petty. I'm through trying to convince you, I and many others have made the case. Fight on if you truly believe that merely standing up out of the minimum of respect is going to somehow make you into a conformist automaton, but realize that it reflects far worse on you than it ever will anyone else.

you know there trying to bring the plege into british schools to increse paitriotism- but there is the problem of if the make it mandatoriy you have the problem of peolpe who arnt brittish- a large amount of students in our schools are from emrging europian countries and have only came here to get a education so they can go back home and inprove their country.

this is fine as were all europeian and when those countres inprove thanks to us then we benifit via trade. but if they have to plege their allegance to our nation then many of them would feel like traitors to their nation. imagin if americans had to plege their allegance to india just to get a education(they have a better education system then u) imagin returning home and being acussed of high treason.

even a voluntary plege has the problem of splitting forigners into two groups- those that plege alligance(will be exspected to stay in briitan) and those that dont(we be exspected to leave after school)
not all of them have desided if they will stay and become citizens or not.

Being from the UK, I've never had to pledge allegiance to any flag or system as a child (with the exception of Cubs/Scouts), and for that I am grateful.

The only closest thing to one, was when we did prayers in assembly in primary school, but I stopped participating in my final two years when I started to doubt that these stories I was hearing were true.
I believe that by not having to repeat a statement everyday, and not having a single choice of what to believe in (politics or religion) told to me everyday, has allowed me to have an open mind and readily assess new ideas and opinions.


A compulsory pledge to the Queen would be ... interesting, to say the least, but I do not support such an action, as I believe that it could cause such rifts and arguements between groups as demonstrated in this very thread, not to mention it seems like an empty gesture which would have no overall benefit to the country.
As I have already finished school, this will not affect me directly, but after informing my younger siblings (who are still in school) about this proposed idea, they had already made up their own minds about it,
"f**k 'em".


(1st post! ;))

Okay. Your continued dodging of those who've given good explanations for why you should at least stand and get on with life instead of wasting time on this leads me to believe that the "big deal" is being made by you for any number of reasons ranging from being deliberately contrary for fun to needing this kind of attention so bad it's pathetic.

You have many NSG opinions, and most have given elaborate and well-reasoned "meh" responses. There are bigger fish to fry, and guess what? Compromise is what built this nation. So if you can't bring yourself to stand for ten lousy seconds while saying NOTHING during the Pledge, then you're going out of your way to be a dick. This is a cipher of a an issue, and people like you do the cause of real freedom no help by choosing to be this petty. It makes you no better than the talk-radio princes of petty. I'm through trying to convince you, I and many others have made the case. Fight on if you truly believe that merely standing up out of the minimum of respect is going to somehow make you into a conformist automaton, but realize that it reflects far worse on you than it ever will anyone else.

Yes I head the opinions loud and clear... and I took them into consideration. Thanks...

I love America. This country is all I've known, and it has done me well. That being said, if some scene kid doesn't want to stand for the pledge, it doesn't both or effect me. The fact that it has "under god" in it and I'm agnostic doesn't bother me either. Really the pledge is rather pointless. Most kids I knew back in grade school rambled it off half asleep and the lot of us were too young to have a deep understanding of it it either way. As someone said, this whole "pledge" issue is so ridiculous. People should concentrate their efforts on something meaningful.

I can't think of a better way to defile something that's supposed to symbolise liberty and freedom than by pressuring people to swear fealty to it. :p

I love America. This country is all I've known, and it has done me well. That being said, if some scene kid doesn't want to stand for the pledge, it doesn't both or effect me. The fact that it has "under god" in it and I'm agnostic doesn't bother me either. Really the pledge is rather pointless. Most kids I knew back in grade school rambled it off half asleep and the lot of us were too young to have a deep understanding of it it either way. As someone said, this whole "pledge" issue is so ridiculous. People should concentrate their efforts on something meaningful.

*Isn't scene*

Thats a little sterotypical that only "scene kids" don't want to say the pledge :rolleyes:

Thats a little sterotypical that only "scene kids" don't want to say the pledge :rolleyes:

I can't stand the national anthem, and I could not be any less scene!

Erm ... what do you mean by scene?

I've heard of scene as in 'warez scene' or 'demoscene', but I don't think that fits into this context?

4-4;13623196']Erm ... what do you mean by scene?

Scene, in this case, is a clever pun on "seen". It refers to your exposure level, or how popular you strive to be.
Well, the overall message here is true.

Don't try that box. You know that we'd all enlist to go to Darfur it were on the list of places to go and bring freedom along with us, but Darfur is not on the radar. Instead, there is hollow condemnation of human rights violations.

As for the Iraq War, that's a false dichotomy you're trying to establish. The problem with the war is blowing up infrastructure and creating chaos, not throwing off oppression. We are engaged in the former, not the latter.

I, for one, wouldn't enlist [just] to go to Darfur. You can't pick the fights you want, especially if you want to serve your country. Saying, "I'll only fight for my country when..." is selfish and only works towards your own goals. One serves not to promote his/her standings etc., but as a testament that they are willing to support the State on their own, if necessary.

The US military: doing the unnecessary for the undeserving and the ungrateful.

Most kids I knew back in grade school rambled it off half asleep and the lot of us were too young to have a deep understanding of it it either way.

I remember wondering what the "witches" were all about. That's how my kindergarten mind interpreted "which it".

I do agree that "under God" should be taken out, however, I respect the over-arching concepts the Pledge stands for. I haven't been in a situation to say it since 3rd grade, though- not that I feel any terrible loss.

If you don't want to, don't. It's just a sign of respect for our country, you don't HAVE to, this isn't China.

I think this (http://www.christiansoldierscross.com/standing_tall.jpg) says it all.

I think this (http://www.christiansoldierscross.com/standing_tall.jpg) says it all.

Indeed, and it's that reason that in a few decades nationalism will be all but gone, replaced essentially by bourgeois culture.

Also, that website is completely wacky.

Indeed, and it's that reason that in a few decades nationalism will be all but gone, replaced essentially by bourgeois culture.

Also, that website is completely wacky.

Yeah, it was the first one i found w/ the pic, though.

I can't think of a better way to defile something that's supposed to symbolise liberty and freedom than by than by pressuring people to swear fealty to it. :p

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