NationStates Jolt Archive

The ACLU is evidently investigating this now. Hopefully, their funding gets yanked. I'm not willing to pay any money to any religion to fund a public school with public tax dollars.

It doesn't look like the government in Minnesota is too interested in stopping this idiocy - they've rarely visited the place.

If people want a religious school, please do so as a private school.


Director breaks wall of silence at state's Muslim public school
By KATHERINE KERSTEN, Star Tribune

Last update: April 9, 2008 - 11:09 AM

Recently, I wrote about Tarek ibn Ziyad Academy (TIZA), a K-8 charter school in Inver Grove Heights. Charter schools are public schools and by law must not endorse or promote religion.

Evidence suggests, however, that TIZA is an Islamic school, funded by Minnesota taxpayers.

TIZA has many characteristics that suggest a religious school. It shares the headquarters building of the Muslim American Society of Minnesota, whose mission is "establishing Islam in Minnesota." The building also houses a mosque. TIZA's executive director, Asad Zaman, is a Muslim imam, or religious leader, and its sponsor is an organization called Islamic Relief.

Students pray daily, the cafeteria serves halal food - permissible under Islamic law -- and "Islamic Studies" is offered at the end of the school day.

Zaman maintains that TIZA is not a religious school. He declined, however, to allow me to visit the school to see for myself, "due to the hectic schedule for statewide testing." But after I e-mailed him that the Minnesota Department of Education had told me that testing would not begin for several weeks, Zaman did not respond -- even to urgent calls and e-mails seeking comment before my first column on TIZA.

Now, however, an eyewitness has stepped forward. Amanda Getz of Bloomington is a substitute teacher. She worked as a substitute in two fifth-grade classrooms at TIZA on Friday, March 14. Her experience suggests that school-sponsored religious activity plays an integral role at TIZA.

Arriving on a Friday, the Muslim holy day, she says she was told that the day's schedule included a "school assembly" in the gym after lunch.

Before the assembly, she says she was told, her duties would include taking her fifth-grade students to the bathroom, four at a time, to perform "their ritual washing."

Afterward, Getz said, "teachers led the kids into the gym, where a man dressed in white with a white cap, who had been at the school all day," was preparing to lead prayer. Beside him, another man "was prostrating himself in prayer on a carpet as the students entered."

"The prayer I saw was not voluntary," Getz said. "The kids were corralled by adults and required to go to the assembly where prayer occurred."

Islamic Studies was also incorporated into the school day. "When I arrived, I was told 'after school we have Islamic Studies,' and I might have to stay for hall duty," Getz said. "The teachers had written assignments on the blackboard for classes like math and social studies. Islamic Studies was the last one -- the board said the kids were studying the Qu'ran. The students were told to copy it into their planner, along with everything else. That gave me the impression that Islamic Studies was a subject like any other."

After school, Getz's fifth-graders stayed in their classroom and the man in white who had led prayer in the gym came in to teach Islamic Studies. TIZA has in effect extended the school day -- buses leave only after Islamic Studies is over. Getz did not see evidence of other extra-curricular activity, except for a group of small children playing outside. Significantly, 77 percent of TIZA parents say that their "main reason for choosing TIZA ... was because of after-school programs conducted by various non-profit organizations at the end of the school period in the school building," according to a TIZA report. TIZA may be the only school in Minnesota with this distinction.

Why does the Minnesota Department of Education allow this sort of religious activity at a public school? According to Zaman, the department inspects TIZA regularly -- and has done so "numerous times" -- to ensure that it is not a religious school.

But the department's records document only three site visits to TIZA in five years -- two in 2003-04 and one in 2007, according to Assistant Commissioner Morgan Brown. None of the visits focused specifically on religious practices.

The department is set up to operate on a "complaint basis," and "since 2004, we haven't gotten a single complaint about TIZA," Brown said. In 2004, he sent two letters to the school inquiring about religious activity reported by visiting department staffers and in a news article. Brown was satisfied with Zaman's assurance that prayer is "voluntary" and "student-led," he said. The department did not attempt to confirm this independently, and did not ask how 5- to 11-year-olds could be initiating prayer. (At the time, TIZA was a K-5 school.)

Zaman agreed to respond by e-mail to concerns raised about the school's practices. Student "prayer is not mandated by TIZA," he wrote, and so is legal. On Friday afternoons, "students are released ... to either join a parent-led service or for study hall." Islamic Studies is provided by the Muslim American Society of Minnesota, and other "nonsectarian" after-school options are available, he added.

Yet prayer at TIZA does not appear to be spontaneously initiated by students, but rather scheduled, organized and promoted by school authorities.

Request for volunteers

Until recently, TIZA's website included a request for volunteers to help with "Friday prayers." In an e-mail, Zaman explained this as an attempt to ensure that "no TIZA staff members were involved in organizing the Friday prayers."

But an end run of this kind cannot remove the fact of school sponsorship of prayer services, which take place in the school building during school hours. Zaman does not deny that "some" Muslim teachers "probably" attend. According to federal guidelines on prayer in schools, teachers at a public school cannot participate in prayer with students.

In addition, schools cannot favor one religion by offering services for only its adherents, or promote after-school religious instruction for only one group. The ACLU of Minnesota has launched an investigation of TIZA, and the Minnesota Department of Education has also begun a review.

TIZA's operation as a public, taxpayer-funded school is troubling on several fronts. TIZA is skirting the law by operating what is essentially an Islamic school at taxpayer expense. The Department of Education has failed to provide the oversight necessary to catch these illegalities, and appears to lack the tools to do so. In addition, there's a double standard at work here -- if TIZA were a Christian school, it would likely be gone in a heartbeat.

TIZA is now being held up as a national model for a new kind of charter school. If it passes legal muster, Minnesota taxpayers may soon find themselves footing the bill for a separate system of education for Muslims.

You yanks would REALLY freak at the publicly funded Catholic school system in Canada...where there is literally one Catholic school for every non-denominational school. Paid for out of public funds.

You yanks would REALLY freak at the publicly funded Catholic school system in Canada...where there is literally one Catholic school for every non-denominational school. Paid for out of public funds.

Yes, I would freak. I'm not a Catholic, and I'm not paying for Catholic ritual and Catholic indoctrination.

Our Constitution forbids it.

No link to article. If authenticated, investigate the school, determine breach of law, and if any, remove funding. It's fairly clear cut.

This story is obviously a fake. We all know the ACLU is a bunch of liberal commie islamic sympathizers hell bent on destroying christianity and installing an atheist/islamic (depending on the day) government.

You yanks would REALLY freak at the publicly funded Catholic school system in Canada...where there is literally one Catholic school for every non-denominational school. Paid for out of public funds.
Ditto UK, except we extend that courtesy to every religion, and statute requires organised Christian worship in all non-denominational schools anyway.

No link to article. If authenticated, investigate the school, determine breach of law, and if any, remove funding. It's fairly clear cut.

http://www.startribune.com/local/17406054.html?page=1&c=y

Yes, I would freak. I'm not a Catholic, and I'm not paying for Catholic ritual and Catholic indoctrination.

Our Constitution forbids it.

Hahahaha, you sound so uptight!

It would probably twist your knickers even more to know that in the Public system, there are schools that offer special programs like a non-denominational Christian blended-curriculum, (for non-Catholics), religious classes as options including Islam, Judaism, etc etc etc. What's really nice about this is that these programs, in addition to special programs for the sciences, the arts, academics, sports, special needs, second languages (or immersion) and so on are available to anyone regardless of where they live. If you don't live close by, they'll pay to have you bussed to one of these schools.

So instead of pissing and moaning about 'omg my money funds religion/music/arts/science/sports/language/etc programs', we instead ALL enjoy greater choice...not just the rich folks who can afford Charter schools.

Oddly enough, our Constitution also has a freedom of religion clause. And oddly enough, even we atheists aren't all that upset that children of different faiths have the right, and the opportunity to access educational resources on the public dollar.

There is, I think, a very strong and fundamental difference between a private school receiving federal funding and a public school that focuses on religious indoctrination. I can't claim to know how the Canadian constitution works, but public schools are strictly forbidden from engaging in religious indoctrination in american schools

Funny how the OP is ranting "OMG! ebil moslem madrazza!" but is awfully silent on the Bush Administration's Faith-Based Initiative which has favored WASP-based organizations over other religious groups.

Funny how the OP is ranting "OMG! ebil moslem madrazza!" but is awfully silent on the Bush Administration's Faith-Based Initiative which has favored WASP-based organizations over other religious groups.

Look at my post count. I haven't been here long enough. And I didn't say "ebil moslem".

You also need to read my post. I am against ANY public funds for ANY religion.

You now look terribly silly.

There is, I think, a very strong and fundamental difference between a private school receiving federal funding and a public school that focuses on religious indoctrination. I can't claim to know how the Canadian constitution works, but public schools are strictly forbidden from engaging in religious indoctrination in american schools

I didn't misspeak. In Canada, Catholic schools are part of the public system. Generally though when we want to talk about the non-Catholic schools we just call them 'public' even though both systems are.

So, Catholic schools and 'public' schools with religious programming are both public schools that receive provincial funding. There are very few private (Charter) schools in Canada, though they do exist. All schools have to follow provincial curriculum. Religious studies, if present, are either woven into that curriculum across all subjects, or offered as stand alone 'options'.

So, instead of sending my kids to the school closest to us, which is a 'public' school offering non-denominational Christian programming, this little atheist sends her kids to a school where there is a strong Arts curriculum.

Nice little thing, choice.

Part of the reason we can do this is that while there IS separation between church and state in Canada, we had to bargain like mad to get Quebec (and other francophone communities) to join us. So, entrenched in our Constitution are language rights (French and English) and religious rights for Catholics.

The public (re: non-Catholic) system can offer religious programming because you always have a choice to go to another school with a different focus.

And oddly enough, we seem to have less fundies that you yanks.

I didn't misspeak.

I know, I was refering to the differences in your legal theory to our own. Personally I think every public school should be funded to provide the same broad educational options so that there wasn't a need for this choice, and whatever religious instruction the parents saw fit to have their children receive could be done through their respective religious institutions.

I don't like public dollars going to religious instruction. I want it to go to real world education. Funding for stand alone "options" is funding that's NOT going to other practcal educational concerns. Let the churches worry about instruction children on religion. Not the job of schools.

I know, I was refering to the differences in your legal theory to our own. Personally I think every public school should be funded to provide the same broad educational options so that there wasn't a need for this choice, and whatever religious instruction the parents saw fit to have their children receive could be done through their respective religious institutions.

I don't like public dollars going to religious instruction. I want it to go to real world education. Funding for stand alone "options" is funding that's NOT going to other practcal educational concerns. Let the churches worry about instruction children on religion. Not the job of schools.

I agree fully here.

You yanks would REALLY freak at the publicly funded Catholic school system in Canada...where there is literally one Catholic school for every non-denominational school. Paid for out of public funds.

One point: These private schools are only in Ontario, Alberta, and parts of Saskatchewen. Quebec had it but phased it out in '97.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separate_school)

Look at my post count. I haven't been here long enough. And I didn't say "ebil moslem".

You also need to read my post. I am against ANY public funds for ANY religion.

You now look terribly silly.

If there is a violation of Church and State then the ACLU will find out and the federal government will make a decision.

Still, I have reservations as to if there would have as big an outburst or publicity had the school been teaching Protestant-oriented lessons (and considering Minnesota has a good deal of Lutherans I'm surprised there hasn't been any). Anything Islamic-related is a guaranteed read or view given the American climate of distrusting or even outright suspecting Muslim activities to be related to terrorism and "teh caliphate" and even unbiased reports have a habit of being twisted into Muslim-bashing propagandas, and NSG is no expection.

I know, I was refering to the differences in your legal theory to our own. Just making sure...the way we talk about public versus Catholic often makes ferners think Catholic schools are private, when they aren't.

Personally I think every public school should be funded to provide the same broad educational options so that there wasn't a need for this choice, and whatever religious instruction the parents saw fit to have their children receive could be done through their respective religious institutions. Fair enough...I don't actually think they should be teaching religion in schools, because I see no educational merit in doing so. That's my bias.

However, even if we ditched religion, I think the system of having specific schools dedicated to specific focuses (focii?) is the best way to do it. There simply aren't the resources, physical or otherwise to ensure that every school has a band room, a big gym, a fantastic library, a dance studio, a science lab, immersion classrooms in French/Cree/Arabic/Mandarin/Hindi/Spanish/German/Polish/Vietnamese and so on and so forth. The public system here (particularly in Edmonton AB), spreads it out, and I think it's a pretty cool way to do it.

I don't like public dollars going to religious instruction. I want it to go to real world education. Funding for stand alone "options" is funding that's NOT going to other practcal educational concerns. Let the churches worry about instruction children on religion. Not the job of schools.

Fair enough. Then again, I think that the desires of the taxpayers need to be taken into account when providing education. Many parents would feel that arts courses, or an arts-focused school is a total waste of their tax money. Others think that immersion classes in Hindi is complete bullshit...but they LOVE the hardcore academic focus of specific schools. Well...this way, they get what they want, and others get what they want. If religious instruction is blended, I see no problem with allowing it. If it is a stand alone course...I don't see how this is less worthy than stupid traditional options like 'aesthetics' or 'sewing'.

I don't agree that providing religious instruction in certain schools takes away from other programs, because that has not been the case. Instead, we have a very broad range of choice throughout the public system, meeting as many people's specific needs as is possible.

I shall apply for public funds for my Frisbeetarianism Charter School immediately! *nod*

I shall apply for public funds for my Frisbeetarianism Charter School immediately! *nod*

I think I have a problem with Charter Schools, mainly because of this problem...

Look at my post count. I haven't been here long enough. And I didn't say "ebil moslem".

You also need to read my post. I am against ANY public funds for ANY religion.

You now look terribly silly.
you haven't been around enough in this incarnation.......but you've been around sporadically under many names right?:rolleyes:

One point: These private schools are only in Ontario, Alberta, and parts of Saskatchewen. Quebec had it but phased it out in '97.

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separate_school)

False. The Catholic school system is called 'separate' and yet it is public. Not private, public. On your taxes, you choose to put your school taxes towards 'public' schools or 'Catholic' schools (oddly, also public). Seven provinces fund these systems. Quebec still has a system of religious education despite the 'change'. Also, your link makes it clear the 'seperate' system is not private.

Another link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_school)
Moar better background (http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1SEC827953)

you haven't been around enough in this incarnation.......but you've been around sporadically under many names right?:rolleyes:

Oh oh oh...the name totally made me think of Deep Kimchi/RO/EO...

Oh oh oh...the name totally made me think of Deep Kimchi/RO/EO...

And now that you mention it, this is a "Lookit the problem with teh moslemz" kind of thread that Kimchi would be posting.

I think I have a problem with Charter Schools, mainly because of this problem...

Don't oppress my religion, you bastard! :mad:


;)

Don't oppress my religion, you bitch! :mad:


;)

Fixed

Fixed

Women can be bastards and men can be bitches. I know, I've seen them do it. *nod*

Oh oh oh...the name totally made me think of Deep Kimchi/RO/EO...

you just now figured that out?

Fixed

Stop lying DK.

you just now figured that out?

I've been busy :P

I'm not willing to pay any money to any religion to fund a public school with public tax dollars.

If people want a religious school, please do so as a private school.

Yet all the people who send their kids to private school have to pay for a public school that they don't use.

Yet all the people who send their kids to private school have to pay for a public school that they don't use.

So do all the childless people and the people whose children have long since left the school system.

Kind of the point of a social system...you don't get to opt out just cuz you don't use one part of it.

Socialist yanks.

Ditto UK, except we extend that courtesy to every religion, and statute requires organised Christian worship in all non-denominational schools anyway.
Nominally, I've yet to have gone to a school (and I've been to eight, my parents moved around a lot when I was young) which took that particularly seriously.

This story is obviously a fake. We all know the ACLU is a bunch of liberal commie islamic sympathizers hell bent on destroying christianity and installing an atheist/islamic (depending on the day) government.

I'd heard it was a government run by Islamic Atheists. (I guess they would believe there was no god, especially Allah . . .)

you just now figured that out?

Well, the Kimchi collective was/is usually a hell of a lot more blatant. This really was presented more as a case of publicly funded religious schools that just happened to include a Muslim school . . .

not just the rich folks who can afford Charter schools....a lot of charter schools are established in desperately poor areas where conventional public schools have failed, and are free to students. I worked at one like that in Harlem...believe me, the kids there were not rich...and frankly, I wouldn't have cared what religion was there, those kids need a good school. each kid in the area was assigned a lottery number and they had to select kids by drawing, because so many people wanted to go and there weren't enough spots. again, it was completely free (and in this case non-religious)

All religion is wrong in my opinion. Any one who belies in some big bloke/blokes and/or women in the skie needs to get a reality check and maybe kill themselves to stop all these stupid wars caused by religion.:upyours:

...a lot of charter schools are established in desperately poor areas where conventional public schools have failed, and are free to students. I worked at one like that in Harlem...believe me, the kids there were not rich...and frankly, I wouldn't have cared what religion was there, those kids need a good school. each kid in the area was assigned a lottery number and they had to select kids by drawing, because so many people wanted to go and there weren't enough spots. again, it was completely free (and in this case non-religious)

So who is funding these charter schools?

So who is funding these charter schools?

The government.

So the latest shout-down is to call somebody a DK clone.

Some of you guys really have your heads firmly up your asses. If that same story had been published about a Baptist Bible Study group as opposed to an Islamic group you'd be screaming bloody murder and you know it.

(You'll deny it anyway. I know.)

Takin' names on this thread too. Gonna remember 'em, and when a thread comes out to scream about some sort of public support of a Christian educational function I'm gonna be watching. So if I'm wrong, it'll be proven in time. If I'm right, there's gonna be a lot of hypocrites exposed around here.

Go a head and flame. The harsher you get, the more it'll tell me I hit a nerve.

NB can you point out one poster in this thread who has been in favor of this sort of school? At least, an american who has been?

NB can you point out one poster in this thread who has been in favor of this sort of school? At least, an american who has been?

Oh oh I SEE...now Canadians don't qualify as people? Or is it just me? What am I...property?

And NB is too busy taking names to talk sense.

All religion is wrong in my opinion. Any one who belies in some big bloke/blokes and/or women in the skie needs to get a reality check and maybe kill themselves to stop all these stupid wars caused by religion.:upyours:
I'm not religious myself, but people can think what they like. As to religion causing wars, you could blame the Crusades as much on a surfeit of angry young men caused by high mortality rate amongst women (such as their wives) giving birth, which is something that nobody wants.

Sticking them on boats and sending them off to the middle of nowhere to probably die from dehydration was probably a Good Idea at the time.

Incidentally, can you think of anything which hasn't caused wars?

The government.

Re: taxpayers.

Let me be clearer...in Canada 'Charter schools' are private schools, privately funded schools. So, in the post I quoted, we're working with different definitions. I said, "not just the rich folks who can afford Charter schools", meaning private schools. Bringing up a government funded Charter school doesn't really deal with that issue.

Edit: The kind of charter schools in the US are only found in AB btw.

Oh oh I SEE...now Canadians don't qualify as people?
Maybe...
Or is it just me?
possibly...
What am I...property?
Only if you want to be...
:D

What am I...property?

Yup

NB can you point out one poster in this thread who has been in favor of this sort of school? At least, an american who has been?

I'm not sure I understand your question.

You mean who has been in favor of a school like this particular case, or charter schools in general?


And NB is too busy taking names to talk sense.

Right. So what's your excuse?

Right. So what's your excuse?

Point out one US citizen in this thread that has supported funding for religious schooling. Otherwise your frothy rant sort of has no purpose, hey?

Yup

*duly noted*

I'm not sure I understand your question.

You mean who has been in favor of a school like this particular case, or charter schools in general?



I havent seen a single American here saying we should support ANY kind of religious school.


There is no double standard. Religious schools should NEVER be funded by tax payers. I dont care if they pray to fucking Zeus every morning. Youre not one for the Christian Persecution Complex (TM). Please dont start now.

Point out one US citizen in this thread that has supported funding for religious schooling. Otherwise your frothy rant sort of has no purpose, hey?

Your strawman needs a little more work.

When you start attacking Hotwife over her objections to this school on the basis that somehow this complaint is motivated by anti-Islamic bigotry, then you'd better damn well have a track record of attacking people who complain against similar instances of Christianity being promoted with public money.

And this is not the case. You know as well as I do that if the OP has been railing about a Christian promoting program at a publicly funded charter school you'd be right there on her side.

When you start attacking Hotwife over her objections to this school on the basis that somehow this complaint is motivated by anti-Islamic bigotry, then you'd better damn well have a track record of attacking people who complain against similar instances of Christianity being promoted with public money.

Regarding Katherine Kersten, this (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/islamic_schools_christian_scho.php) is probably worth reading.

And this is not the case. You know as well as I do that if the OP has been railing about a Christian promoting program at a publicly funded charter school you'd be right there on her side.

I doubt it.

I havent seen a single American here saying we should support ANY kind of religious school.


There is no double standard. Religious schools should NEVER be funded by tax payers. I dont care if they pray to fucking Zeus every morning. Youre not one for the Christian Persecution Complex (TM). Please dont start now.

Ok so if some people misinterpret my post I'm not surprised but when you do it I become concerned. What part of my post sounds like I'm saying that people are advocating certain schools? (Seriously)

What I'm giping about is some of the same people who are calling Hotwife a bigot because the school in this case is Islamic are the ones who would have been launching the attack themselves if it had been Christian. It's not a question of supporting it as simply being much less outraged in one case than in another, when they ought to be equally outrageous.

Help me out, man.

More, not from Kersten...

http://kstp.com/article/stories/S407036.shtml?cat=1

A Star Tribune newspaper column has prompted a state investigation into a charter school. A substitute teacher said a school in Inver Grove Heights is blurring the line of separation of church and state.

Being a charter school Tarek ibn Ziyad Academy, or TIZA, is supported by tax dollars. The teacher told 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS the presence of religion she observed at the school took her by surprise.

TIZA Executive Director Azad Zaman insisted the school follows with state and federal laws.

"TIZA does not endorse any religion," he said.

However, TIZA Academy is sponsored by Islamic Relief USA, based in California.

The questions came after substitute teacher Amanda Getz taught at TIZA last month and told the Star Tribune about things she observed that day that shocked her.

"I've been in a lot of schools and I've never been in a school where they had washing rituals, or they had prayer, or where they had a room where you had to take your shoes off," Getz said.

"It is most likely that this substitute teacher was sadly mistaken," said Zaman.

He said the school follows state and federal guidelines when it comes to religion.

"We're required under the federal guidelines to allow students to pray when they wish to do so. And as Muslim students, they're allowed to pray around 1:30 p.m., so we allow them to do that," Zaman explained.

The State Department of Education said they would conduct more site visits and write to the State Department to find out more about the school’s sponsor.

TIZA requires all students to learn Arabic as a second language English.

State law requires the school to fly an American flag during school hours, however no flag flies outside of TIZA Academy.

Zaman told 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS he didn’t know how to work the flagpole.

Regarding Katherine Kersten, this (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/islamic_schools_christian_scho.php) is probably worth reading.



Thats the best part. Most of these people out there who are freaking out over this school are the same people who freak out over schools not allowing daily prayer to Jesus over the loudspeaker.


Theyre the same fucking loons who think Freedom of Religion means Freedom to be Christian.

What I'm giping about is some of the same people who are calling Hotwife a bigot because the school in this case is Islamic are the ones who would have been launching the attack themselves if it had been Christian.

We call hotwife a bigot because hotwife is Deep Kimchi is Eve Online is Whispering Lies, and someone who has a long time ago demonstrated himself to be a bigot.

Regarding Katherine Kersten, this (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/islamic_schools_christian_scho.php) is probably worth reading.


Good example of exactly the sort of hypocrisy I'm talking about just in the opposite direction.


I doubt it.

Stick around awhile and watch.

We call hotwife a bigot because hotwife is Deep Kimchi is Eve Online is Whispering Lies, and someone who has a long time ago demonstrated himself to be a bigot.

How do you know?

(Serious question, not rhetorical)

My catholic high school got money from the government to build their new gym. They also got a lot of new science lab equipment from that no child left behind thing. I never really thought about it before but it is kind of a violation of the first amendment. But if thats the case then school vouchers will never work for religious schools.

Ok so if some people misinterpret my post I'm not surprised but when you do it I become concerned. What part of my post sounds like I'm saying that people are advocating certain schools? (Seriously)

What I'm giping about is some of the same people who are calling Hotwife a bigot because the school in this case is Islamic are the ones who would have been launching the attack themselves if it had been Christian. It's not a question of supporting it as simply being much less outraged in one case than in another, when they ought to be equally outrageous.

Help me out, man.



Your rant made it sound like everyone was pro-Islamic schools but anti-Christian schools. Im just pointing out I think everyone is anti-religious schools in general and there is no double standard.

If your point is that all religious schools should not be funded, then its all good. I just dont really think there is a double standard. In fact Neeshika said that in Canada all religious schools are publically funded and she made it sound like a good thing.

Your strawman needs a little more work.

When you start attacking Hotwife over her objections to this school on the basis that somehow this complaint is motivated by anti-Islamic bigotry, then you'd better damn well have a track record of attacking people who complain against similar instances of Christianity being promoted with public money.

And this is not the case. You know as well as I do that if the OP has been railing about a Christian promoting program at a publicly funded charter school you'd be right there on her side.

Uh...what on earth are you babbling about? Show me where I 'attacked Hotwife' over his objections blah blah anti-Islamic bigotry. You'll find that wasn't me. Silly you.

I pointed out that Hotwife's posting name AND posting style is consistant with Deep Kimchi's MO. You see...we've been playing 'spot DK's reincarnation' for years here. Please do catch up.

And answer the question. You claimed that you were going to take names and then call people hypocrites later because they are supporting the funding of Islamic schools. Expose your list. What USian here is supporting the fuding of religious schooling?

In fact Neeshika said that in Canada all religious schools are publically funded and she made it sound like a good thing.

Er, nope, not here in Ontario (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_general_election%2C_2007#Issues). Alberta is different, maybe?

Your rant made it sound like everyone was pro-Islamic schools but anti-Christian schools. Im just pointing out I think everyone is anti-religious schools in general and there is no double standard.

If your point is that all religious schools should not be funded, then its all good. I just dont really think there is a double standard. In fact Neeshika said that in Canada all religious schools are publically funded and she made it sound like a good thing.

I don't think religious schools should be government funded, but I suppose that it's just as reasonable to fund them ALL. That' smy take on it. All or nothing.

But dude, you know as well as I do there's a double standard around here when it comes to these things.

I'm not talking out of my arse on this one. I rmeember once last year there was a time when I called out some people for being openly anti-Christian and they took it with PRIDE. Ever since then I've been on this warpath. It's not that they hate Christianity that bothers me. Frankly, I almost enjoy that part. What bothers me is those same people used to get all over DK even when he wasn't being bigoted (Not saying he never was, just that he wasn't always) and get all uppity about religious bigotry when they were the same ones who openly and proudly spoke derisively about Christianity.

I don't care what people think about my religion. (And consider this: as a Mormon I hear bullshit even from other Christians) But I do feel the compulsion to take people down a peg when they start hosing the boards with their hypocrisy.

Uh...what on earth are you babbling about? Show me where I 'attacked Hotwife' over his objections blah blah anti-Islamic bigotry. You'll find that wasn't me. Silly you.

Hmm awfully defensive, considering I haven't named you as one of those. Interesting.


I pointed out that Hotwife's posting name AND posting style is consistant with Deep Kimchi's MO. You see...we've been playing 'spot DK's reincarnation' for years here. Please do catch up.

Yes and it's reached the point of being a witchhunt.


And answer the question. You claimed that you were going to take names and then call people hypocrites later because they are supporting the funding of Islamic schools. Expose your list. What USian here is supporting the fuding of religious schooling?

All in good time, my dear. Gonna let this one simmer awhile.

So the latest shout-down is to call somebody a DK clone.

Some of you guys really have your heads firmly up your asses. If that same story had been published about a Baptist Bible Study group as opposed to an Islamic group you'd be screaming bloody murder and you know it.

(You'll deny it anyway. I know.)

Takin' names on this thread too. Gonna remember 'em, and when a thread comes out to scream about some sort of public support of a Christian educational function I'm gonna be watching. So if I'm wrong, it'll be proven in time. If I'm right, there's gonna be a lot of hypocrites exposed around here.

Go a head and flame. The harsher you get, the more it'll tell me I hit a nerve.
Yes, it's totally inconceivable when reading the frothy rant above, that people would think you are saying:

1) People in this thread don't care about this school being funded publicly because it's encouraging Islam, but if it were encouraging Christianity, people would flip
2) Therefore, people in this thread are supporting publicly funded religious education and you are going to expose them later.

Now. Who is supporting this?

Oh wait, that's not what you meant?

The onus is on you to make sense. For a change.

All in good time, my dear. Gotta let this one simmer awhile.

Oh I see...no one has actually supported gov't funding of religious schools, you're just HOPING they are so you can 'expose' them.

So you went off on your rant prematurely?

Premature ejaculation? (and I mean that in the speaking sense)

Yes, it's totally inconceivable when reading the frothy rant above, that people would think you are saying:

1) People in this thread don't care about this school being funded publicly because it's encouraging Islam, but if it were encouraging Christianity, people would flip
2) Therefore, people in this thread are supporting publicly funded religious education and you are going to expose them later.

Now. Who is supporting this?

Oh wait, that's not what you meant?

The onus is on you to make sense. For a change.

Actually the onus is on you to sharpen your reading comprehension skills. Your #1 is correct. #2 is a strawman.

But 1/2 is progress. Good job!

I don't think religious schools should be government funded, but I suppose that it's just as reasonable to fund them ALL. That' smy take on it. All or nothing.

But dude, you know as well as I do there's a double standard around here when it comes to these things.

I'm not talking out of my arse on this one. I rmeember once last year there was a time when I called out some people for being openly anti-Christian and they took it with PRIDE. Ever since then I've been on this warpath. It's not that they hate Christianity that bothers me. Frankly, I almost enjoy that part. What bothers me is those same people used to get all over DK even when he wasn't being bigoted (Not saying he never was, just that he wasn't always) and get all uppity about religious bigotry when they were the same ones who openly and proudly spoke derisively about Christianity.

I don't care what people think about my religion. (And consider this: as a Mormon I hear bullshit even from other Christians) But I do feel the compulsion to take people down a peg when they start hosing the boards with their hypocrisy.



Well, I dont think the double standard is that prevalent. Besides, an issue I personally take, that I think many here also take the same issue, is that the manner in which people attack Islam and what it accuse it of is either false, or its things Christians do exactly the same. So I think thats why people get uppity. At least thats why I do.

Oh I see...no one has actually supported gov't funding of religious schools, you're just HOPING they are so you can 'expose' them.

So you went off on your rant prematurely?

Premature ejaculation? (and I mean that in the speaking sense)

No, once again you've misunderstood. I'm not gonna expose that list until I catch those people in the act of bitching about a Christian prmoting public school.

..speaking of lecturing people about keeping up....

Hmm awfully defensive, considering I haven't named you as one of those. Interesting. Well gee, you quoted me saying:

Your strawman needs a little more work.

When you start attacking Hotwife over her objections to this school on the basis that somehow this complaint is motivated by anti-Islamic bigotry, then you'd better damn well have a track record of attacking people who complain against similar instances of Christianity being promoted with public money.

And this is not the case. You know as well as I do that if the OP has been railing about a Christian promoting program at a publicly funded charter school you'd be right there on her side.
There is no reason for me to believe you were using the plural, exclusive form of 'You' as in 'all you people excluding Neesika who are attacking Hotwife in the manner I have just described'. There is in fact, no reason for you to quote me, or respond to me in any way unless you indeed are implying or stating outright that I am a member of the class you are referring to.

You do a really terrible job of backtracking, you know that? You might want to like...edit your quotes first or something.

Well, I dont think the double standard is that prevalent. Besides, an issue I personally take, that I think many here also take the same issue, is that the manner in which people attack Islam and what it accuse it of is either false, or its things Christians do exactly the same. So I think thats why people get uppity. At least thats why I do.

I dunno I haven't really noticed you being particularly uppity about it, but then it's also possible that there's a difference in our levels of sensitivity to it. I specifically watch for it wheras I'm guessing you don't.

No, once again you've misunderstood. I'm not gonna expose that list until I catch those people in the act of bitching about a Christian prmoting public school.

..speaking of lecturing people about keeping up....

Translation:

"No one has actually done what I've accused everyone of doing, and we all know it, but if I try REALLY hard to sound like I have this information, people will think I'm cool".

I dunno I haven't really noticed you being particularly uppity about it, but then it's also possible that there's a difference in our levels of sensitivity to it. I specifically watch for it wheras I'm guessing you don't.

Probably that.


I treat all religions (abrahamic at least) equally, they are all equally vile :p

1) People in this thread don't care about this school being funded publicly because it's encouraging Islam, but if it were encouraging Christianity, people would flip

That's what he means? Bloody hell.

Yes, I would freak. I'm not a Catholic, and I'm not paying for Catholic ritual and Catholic indoctrination.

Our Constitution forbids it.

Our Constitution mandates it. :D

Well gee, you quoted me saying:


There is no reason for me to believe you were using the plural, exclusive form of 'You' as in 'all you people excluding Neesika who are attacking Hotwife in the manner I have just described'. There is in fact, no reason for you to quote me, or respond to me in any way unless you indeed are implying or stating outright that I am a member of the class you are referring to.

You do a really terrible job of backtracking, you know that? You might want to like...edit your quotes first or something.

You're my favorite person to get into these little matches with, because it sharpens my skills at trying to anticipate irrational conclusions. You've already made up your mind about what you think I'm getting at, and everything I post is going through that filter.

There's actually, contrary to what you just said, a pretty good reason to quote you. Namely, you quoted me first, thus initiating the exchange.

But hey, why let reality spoil a good whine?

That's what he means? Bloody hell. Apparently so. Cuz we're Soft on Islam TM.

Translation:

"No one has actually done what I've accused everyone of doing, and we all know it, but if I try REALLY hard to sound like I have this information, people will think I'm cool".

Translation:

"I've utterly missed the point but maybe if I find ever more creative ways to repeat my whine, it'll start to become true."

Probably that.
I treat all religions (abrahamic at least) equally, they are all equally vile :p

And you know, I respect that because at least you're consistent.

You're my favorite person to get into these little matches with, because it sharpens my skills at trying to anticipate irrational conclusions. You've already made up your mind about what you think I'm getting at, and everything I post is going through that filter.

There's actually, contrary to what you just said, a pretty good reason to quote you. Namely, you quoted me first, thus initiating the exchange.

But hey, why let reality spoil a good whine?

You're the one muddying the waters with your odd little baseless accusations, and declarations aimed at everyone EXCEPT for the person you've quoted. Crying about how you're so misunderstood is not going to elicit sympathy when it is truly up to you to make yourself clear.

I am also greatly amused that your argument really is " I was using the exclusive, plural 'you', referring to everyone except you Neesika...".

That's really something. It's like your inventing the way language should work!

Oh oh oh and you know what!? I'm totally going to copy and past all your quotes in this thread and store them for a later date so that when you attempt to accuse people of being hypocrites, as you've promised to do, I can expose you as the bizarre little fabricator of falsities that you are. See if I don't!

Edit: wait wait wait...omg...holy crap just give me a second here *breathes deeply*...I just figured out your master plan.

My god it's brilliant. I'm actually stunned here. *deeper breath*

You are going to...wow...okay...you are going to take the name of every single poster who DOESN'T post in this thread in support for the OP and then you are going to expose them for the lying hypocrites they are if they EVER post in a thread against funding Christian based education!? My god the list you're going to have...it's pure genius..."You didn't speak out thus you are a hypocrite"...wow.

You two just have a lot of pent of sexual lust for each other. Just admit it.



....nothing? Not even a chuckle?


Meh, cant blame a guy for trying...

You're the one muddying the waters with your odd little baseless accusations, and declarations aimed at everyone EXCEPT for the person you've quoted. Crying about how you're so misunderstood is not going to elicit sympathy when it is truly up to you to make yourself clear.

I am also greatly amused that your argument really is " I was using the exclusive, plural 'you', referring to everyone except you Neesika...".

That's really something. It's like your inventing the way language should work!

Oh oh oh and you know what!? I'm totally going to copy and past all your quotes in this thread and store them for a later date so that when you attempt to accuse people of being hypocrites, as you've promised to do, I can expose you as the bizarre little fabricator of falsities that you are. See if I don't!

So I was thinking I could either go through another round of trying to correct your incorrect accusations but then I realized that ya know, that just isn't possible. I hit a nerve somewhere and you're simply not ABLE to read my response objectively.

..which is interesting in and of itself.

Anyway, what I was trying to say before:

When you start attacking Hotwife over her objections to this school on the basis that somehow this complaint is motivated by anti-Islamic bigotry

Evidence for anti-Islamic bigotry:
1) The OP quotes Katherine Kersten
2) Katherine Kersten is an anti-Islamic bigot

Someone can complain about bigoted motives all they want (is anyone doing that? I can't tell anymore), it doesn't mean that they support the school, or that there is a double standard.

You two just have a lot of pent of sexual lust for each other. Just admit it.



....nothing? Not even a chuckle?


Meh, cant blame a guy for trying...

...trying to decide if my reply would constitute a Mod response...

...not that it's overtly mean or anything, but in this day and age...

Maybe I'll just send it as a TG.

:D

You know, when the vast majority of people you interact with "misses your point" or "can't understand what you're saying" or "doesn't get it" at what point do you sit back and think...maybe it's you?

Anyway, what I was trying to say before:



Evidence for anti-Islamic bigotry:
1) The OP quotes Katherine Kersten
2) Katherine Kersten is an anti-Islamic bigot

Someone can complain about bigoted motives all they want (is anyone doing that? I can't tell anymore), it doesn't mean that they support the school, or that there is a double standard.

And yeah from what I've read this Kersten person seems pretty far from objective. I agree with that part, but what I'm saying is that IMHO having public money going to pay for religious indoctrination IS a bad thing, and I don't give a rat's arse whether it's Islamic, Evangelical Christian or whatever else. But to criticize the OP purely on the basis of the subject being an Islamic school is not objective, and even if the source isn't objective if the facts presented are acturate, even half of them, then it's a matter for concern.

The ACLU seems to think it's worthy of an investigation. That ought to mean something.

You know, when the vast majority of people you interact with "misses your point" or "can't understand what you're saying" or "doesn't get it" at what point do you sit back and think...maybe it's you?

All the time. Notice, I asked Knights of Liberty about it in this very thread and it was a constructive exchange...

But when people seem to be blatantly misrepresenting what I said, then there's little reason for me to go through a zillion iterations of repeating it.

But to criticize the OP purely on the basis of the subject being an Islamic school is not objective.

But if the OP has bigoted motives, don't they deserve criticism?

Edit: this is a pretty rhetorical question.

But if the OP has bigoted motives, don't they deserve criticism?

Sure but that doesn't necessarily invalidate the original point, does it?

If a black man steals a car and a white supremacist bigot sees him do it, does that change the fact that the car was stolen?

And does this OP even demonstrate bigotry? I mean, the selection of the original source may or may not be an indicator, but why isn't this person getting the benefit of the doubt? It seems like people's assumptions about the identity of the OP may be coloring their perception.

Personally, I don't care if Hotwife is DK or not. Either the issue is a worthwhile one or it's not.

On the Hotwife/DK conspiracy....note that part of his MO was to never deny accusations of being a DK reincarnation.

On the Hotwife/DK conspiracy....note that part of his MO was to never deny accusations of being a DK reincarnation.

I will concede that point.

Sure but that doesn't necessarily invalidate the original point, does it?

If a black man steals a car and a white supremacist bigot sees him do it, does that change the fact that the car was stolen?

Yeah, I know. But, as far I can tell, no one is claiming the car was not stolen. They're just saying that the only reason the stolen car was reported was that the thief was black.

And does this OP even demonstrate bigotry?

You also need to read my post. I am against ANY public funds for ANY religion.

Apparently not? I'm just saying there is some evidence that would support this view.

Dudes, read the last paragraph of the article quoted in the OP.

I agree --- don't fund religious schools with taxpayer money in US

However, conclusion of article --- separate taxpayer funded system of education for Muslims --- does not follow from the actual information presented, and bears all the hallmarks of bigotry and stupidity. Basically, I can agree with some parts of what someone says, while considering them a bigot and anti-Islamic for other things they say.

However, conclusion of article --- separate taxpayer funded system of education for Muslims --- does not follow from the actual information presented, and bears all the hallmarks of bigotry and stupidity. Basically, I can agree with some parts of what someone says, while considering them a bigot and anti-Islamic for other things they say.

*high-fives*

Yeah, I know. But, as far I can tell, no one is claiming the car was not stolen. They're just saying that the only reason the stolen car was reported was that the thief was black.


Fine, but then there's no follow through on the car theft.

*high-fives*

*high-fives back*

I pointed out that Hotwife's posting name AND posting style is consistant with Deep Kimchi's MO. You see...we've been playing 'spot DK's reincarnation' for years here. Please do catch up.


As I said, I'm not sure yet. The collective is usually more blatant than this post, also I haven't seen a lot of Islamaphobia in the posters other posts (but maybe I'm reading the wrong ones).

Yes, I would freak. I'm not a Catholic, and I'm not paying for Catholic ritual and Catholic indoctrination.

Our Constitution forbids it.

I am a Catholic, and I would object to direct government funding of Catholic or any other sectarian school.

NB: "Direct" funding only means tax expenditures specifically directed to the support of such schools.

I pointed out that Hotwife's posting name AND posting style is consistant with Deep Kimchi's MO. You see...we've been playing 'spot DK's reincarnation' for years here. Please do catch up.

DK should be reincarnated and elevated to God of NSG! (See the thread on this issue).

God, I love seeing lefties, Christophobes, PC wackos and wanna-be dhimmis bending over backwards to justify Moslem indoctrination at a taxpayer-funded public school--the same gasbags who scream bloody murder at the thought of a public school allowing the singing of Christmas songs or the least recognition of the Christian heritage of the US in particular and of Western civilization in general. Their utter intellectual dishonesty is so blatant it's hysterically funny.

This tax-funded madrassa should be shut down immediately.

Hey why don't you spam some more as well as troll, eh New Mitanni?

Not that you'll reply. You're so good you can just blather on in the third person. Perhaps when you babble like that, it makes you feel safer... like not only do you not have to look us in the eyes, you don't have to say our scary names or respond to our scary comments or, in fact, use a single neuron! Which is good. Might not want to waste 'em if you got 'em.

God, I love seeing lefties, Christophobes, PC wackos and wanna-be dhimmis bending over backwards to justify Moslem indoctrination at a taxpayer-funded public school--the same gasbags who scream bloody murder at the thought of a public school allowing the singing of Christmas songs or the least recognition of the Christian heritage of the US in particular and of Western civilization in general. Their utter intellectual dishonesty is so blatant it's hysterically funny.

This tax-funded madrassa should be shut down immediately.

This country is based off non-bias (yes, I know it doesn't work that way in reality), and if you don't like, you can leave. We're not supposed to be putting any belief system above another as far as federal programs are concerned. Business and people can do what they like, but when it comes to the government, education, etc., we have a separation of church and State for a reason.

Incidentally, can you think of anything which hasn't caused wars?

Belgian waffles?

Religious schools should NEVER be funded by tax payers.

No schools should be funded by tax payers.

No schools should be funded by tax payers.

:O Well then where would all the poor children go?

I hate it when people shove their religion in my face. I mean honestly, get the fuck away from me.

What I hate more however is having to spend money on religion, its not like it doesn't receive enough unearned money anyway.