NationStates Jolt Archive

Seriously people, there are religions out there that DON'T tell you that your a bad person just because of who you love. Why don't more homosexuals either convert to one of them or become Atheists?

I always wonder that every time I hear about some gay couple trying to get married in a church.

There are christian sects out there who's interpretation of the bible does not condemn gays.
There are also christians who believe that being a good person is by far more important that who you sleep with.

Seriously people, there a religions out there that DON'T tell you that your a bad person just because of who you love. Why don't more homosexuals either convert to one of them or become Atheists?

ROFL @ Redwulf!! Awesome thread, dude.:D

Because not all Christians believe homosexuality is such a bad thing, or that every word of the bible is to be taken as absolute, god-written truth? :rolleyes:

that every word of the bible is to be taken as absolute, god-written truth? :rolleyes:

Except doesnt the Bible make that claim?


Curious...


Im waiting for all the Christians who chimed in in support of the "How can Christians believe in Homosexuality" thread to come here and get offended.

Oh another reason homosexuals might believe in christianity:

David and Jonathan......just putting it out there....

Im waiting for all the Christians who chimed in in support of the "How can Christians believe in Homosexuality" thread to come here and get offended.

And we'll try not to laugh at them for being hypocrites then?:rolleyes:

Because not all Christians believe homosexuality is such a bad thing, or that every word of the bible is to be taken as absolute, god-written truth? :rolleyes:

Butbut.. what is the basis for their faith then ?
At least the scary fundamentalists do not cherry pick...

Butbut.. what is the basis for their faith then ?
At least the scary fundamentalists do not cherry pick...

Well, they still do actually, because the Bible is so contradictory you have to cherry pick.


They just cherry pick the hateful parts.

Seriously people, there are religions out there that DON'T tell you that your a bad person just because of who you love.

.....like some versions of Christianity?

Why don't more homosexuals either convert to one of them or become Atheists?

Why don't you randomly convert to a different religion/atheism/theism, depending on what you believe currently?

Butbut.. what is the basis for their faith then ?

God.

If the basis for someone's faith is another human being or a collection of writings, they really don't have faith in God.

Why don't you randomly convert to a different religion/atheism/theism, depending on what you believe currently?

Eeehm - why would one not pick the explanation that best fits your knowledge at any given time ?

Eeehm - why would one not pick the explanation that best fits your knowledge at any given time ?

Precisely.

God.

If the basis for someone's faith is another human being or a collection of writings, they really don't have faith in God.

While that sounds nice in theory - where do these people get their knowledge of God if not from writings or other people ? Not everyone can speak to god directly, and relying entirely on personal reflection tends to lead to very narrow views.

Butbut.. what is the basis for their faith then ?
At least the scary fundamentalists do not cherry pick...

Actually they do, what with their eating of pork and various other portions of Leviticus ignored.

Why don't you randomly convert to a different religion/atheism/theism, depending on what you believe currently?

I did (well not RANDOMLY, I found a religion that actually agrees with what I believe). That's my point, why follow a religion that doesn't match your beliefs?

Butbut.. what is the basis for their faith then ?
At least the scary fundamentalists do not cherry pick...

Meh, everyone cherry picks when it comes to the Bible, regardless if you're a fundamentalist or a common person interested. If you're involved in an argument, you will pick those passeges of the Bible that best suit it. We all do.;)

People don't choose a religion based on its rules or view on things such as homosexuality. I think Pascal's Wager has some relevance here.

Why people choose to be part of a religion at all is another question. I think 99% of the time, people are born into a religion and believe it because their parents do, which is why many people in the Middle-East are Islamic, and many North Americans are Christian. Few people convert to a religion without some outside force acting upon them.

For example, Christians who aren't born into their system of belief are usually brought in by a close friend or member of the church. It is very rare that somebody decides to join a religion because they feel that the particular god(s) of that religion is/are likely to exist.

More so than this is the unlikelyhood of choosing a religion based on its views on homosexuality; "I'm gay and X religion says that's okay, so their God is likely to exist." This makes no sense.

I suppose becoming an atheist would be a valid choice if you think, "Ah, I'm going to hell anyway, so I may as well stop going to church etc." but then you wouldn't be a true atheist because you'd still believe in God, just one that hates you.

Hmm... you seem to have set me off on a pseudo-rant there. Well done. :D

While that sounds nice in theory - where do these people get their knowledge of God if not from writings or other people?

From the guidance of God.

Not everyone can speak to god directly, and relying entirely on personal reflection tends to lead to very narrow views.

They can't? I believe that one of the core principles of Christ's message is that we all can have a personal connection with God.

And no one relies entirely on personal reflection. Religion, morality, etc. are all the products of dynamic processes. All sorts of sources of information are used, with the emphasis on each depending on the particular person.

Because they eat pork.

Shouldn't the title also be 'How can Christians permit Homosexuality'? As believe indicates the idea that such an activity exists, rather than what I believe the debate the author is trying to inspire

Er, that sounds like it should be in the inverse of this thread, "How can Christians believe in homosexuality" that's further down the page.

[QUOTE=Dempublicents1;13570604]From the guidance of God. They can't? I believe that one of the core principles of Christ's message is that we all can have a personal connection with God.[QUOTE]

You talk to God?!:eek: OMG!!!:eek:

Meh, everyone cherry picks when it comes to the Bible, regardless if you're a fundamentalist or a common person interested. If you're involved in an argument, you will pick those passeges of the Bible that best suit it. We all do.;)

That would form a rather shaky basis for an entire moral system...
I prefer the angle Dempublicents1 is using.

Er, that sounds like it should be in the inverse of this thread, "How can Christians believe in homosexuality" that's further down the page.

My bad - wasn't paying attention :headbang:

I did (well not RANDOMLY, I found a religion that actually agrees with what I believe).

I'll assume here that you mean you found an organized religion that largely agrees with what you believe.

Your own beliefs do constitute religion (assuming they have something to do with the divine), whether or not you find others who agree with you on all or most points.

That's my point, why follow a religion that doesn't match your beliefs?

Why do you assume that Christianity necessarily does not match the beliefs of any given homosexual?

I, for one, consider myself both bisexual and Christian. I see no contradiction between the two, as I see nothing in Christ's message or in the guidance I receive to suggest that I should.

There are actually a small group of christians who actually understand that Christ's message was quite basic and had nothing to do with who people had sex with.

That would form a rather shaky basis for an entire moral system...
I prefer the angle Dempublicents1 is using.

See? Even now, you're cherry picking in this thread.;)

You talk to God?!:eek: OMG!!!:eek:

it's not shocking, tons of people talk to God, now, if God talks back, you really have to listen to what they say He said........because that's when the :eek: comes in.

"God told me to sacrifice my children" :eek:

Why do you assume that Christianity necessarily does not match the beliefs of any given homosexual?

Because your own holy book says otherwise.

See? Even now, you're cherry picking in this thread.;)

Nope - I am going with a system that seems consistent instead of a system that does not. I am not cherrypicking - I am going to a different orchard ;)

Except doesnt the Bible make that claim?


Curious...

This guy sent me an e-mail claiming to be the former treasurer of Angola. He says he has eleven million dollars for me.


Butbut.. what is the basis for their faith then ?
At least the scary fundamentalists do not cherry pick...

I suppose I'm about as close to being agnostic as you can get while still calling yourself a Christian.
Besides, who're you gonna believe? The ancient Jewish ninja, or a bunch of old guys with a fondness for hallucinogenic mushrooms?

Because your own holy book says otherwise.
why do you assume all Christians have to accept the whole Bible as "the holy book"?

this bothers me as of late (and it's not you Redwulf, I just know you are intelligent enough to have this conversation without flaming me, so I ask)

Why do people need religion anyway? I'm an agnostic and I've lived fine without god and without the need to disprove his/her/their existence. That doesn't mean that I'm immoral in any way.

I'll assume here that you mean you found an organized religion that largely agrees with what you believe.


I wouldn't call it organized exactly.

Your own beliefs do constitute religion (assuming they have something to do with the divine), whether or not you find others who agree with you on all or most points.

I was referring less to my beliefs about the divine and more to my beliefs about what the divine wants from us humans and what angers them.

it's not shocking, tons of people talk to God, now, if God talks back, you really have to listen to what they say He said........because that's when the :eek: comes in.

"God told me to sacrifice my children" :eek:

Oh, I know many people 'talk' to God. I was just using the :eek: for dramatic effect and as a joke.;)

Ex:
http://www.marjonsplaza.com/funny%20cat%20not%20so%20innocent.JPG
The voices inside it's head are God talking to it.:D

There are actually a small group of christians who actually understand that Christ's message was quite basic and had nothing to do with who people had sex with.

Its too bad so many people miss the good ol' days with the smiting and bears eating children and turning people into salt, eh?

Seriously people, there are religions out there that DON'T tell you that your a bad person just because of who you love. Why don't more homosexuals either convert to one of them or become Atheists?
Also why don't people who work on the 7th day of the week like Priests for example convert to one of the religions that don't tell them they are bad persons just because they work on the 7th day?

Why don't all sinners convert to another religion that doesn't tell them they are bad persons because they have sinned?

Maybe because Christianity does not only tell us that we are all sinners but also solves that problem by offering forgiveness.

Its too bad so many people miss the good ol' days with the smiting and bears eating children and turning people into salt, eh?

Yep. God was quite an asshole before he had his first kid. *nod*

Nope - I am going with a system that seems consistent instead of a system that does not. I am not cherrypicking - I am going to a different orchard ;)

Can I haz apple from dat uther urcherd, pliz?
http://planetsmilies.net/kaos-animal-cat-smiley-6112.gif

On a more serious note, I understand what you mean. But when I said people cherry pick the Bible, I was telling the truth. Go to the thread Christian Women and you'll understand.;)

Yep. God was quite an asshole before he had his first kid. *nod*

Clearly he's chilled a bit. Otherwise, why does Amsterdam still exist? :P

why do you assume all Christians have to accept the whole Bible as "the holy book"?

Two reasons. Primarily because when I used to be Christian that's what the churches in my area taught. Even after rejecting them it's hard to forget what got drummed in even if I don't follow it. Secondly because in the words of your own Saviour He did not come to change the Laws but to fulfill them. to reject the OT in whole or in part would be to CHANGE the Laws.

Clearly he's chilled a bit. Otherwise, why does Amsterdam still exist? :P

Cause it has an awful lot of churches.

I was a Christian for a long time (now I am Deist), but I always saw the Bible more as a book of legends than a absolute truth.

Yep. God was quite an asshole before he had his first kid. *nod*

Parenthood mellows people out. *nod*

Seriously people, there are religions out there that DON'T tell you that your a bad person just because of who you love. Why don't more homosexuals either convert to one of them or become Atheists?

You are asking a far too simplified question to provide any sort of answer. Many people who call themselves Christians bash gays non-stop, after all, gays are the new terrorists right? Well, there are also people who call themselves Christians who unabashedly support homosexuality, and it's place in the Church.

Of course there is a diverse rainbow (pun very much intended) of ideas, and beliefs scattered across those who call themselves Christians, so not even the two extremes that I presented (showing far more representation than your single-side judgement) isn't an accurate summation of "Christian" belief on the subject.

Perhaps the Christian faith is the one 'true belief' as it were, this is certainly evidence of that (note, I said evidence, not proof, something need not be a strong point of evidence to still be evidence) one the other hand, maybe Jesus made such good speeches, and had such good ideas as to (implicitly without Divinity) draw very many people to His teaching.

I must declare your question void, due to the fact that it is so incomplete as to not be able to answer.

Also why don't people who work on the 7th day of the week like Priests for example convert to one of the religions that don't tell them they are bad persons just because they work on the 7th day?

Why don't all sinners convert to another religion that doesn't tell them they are bad persons because they have sinned?

Maybe because Christianity does not only tell us that we are all sinners but also solves that problem by offering forgiveness.

And other religions admit that there isn't a problem to solve.

Oh another reason homosexuals might believe in christianity:

David and Jonathan......just putting it out there....

I'm actually pretty sure that it was just cultural. After all, it is very clear that two hetero's can enjoy a mutual friendship that is extrmemly deep, without it being a romantic one, additionally, we even see in Europe the trend of kissing as a greeting or farewell, they kissed a few times, but that says nothing of their sexuality.

Additionally, ask Bathseba what she thinks of David's apparent homosexuality... I bet she'd have something to say.

Cause it has an awful lot of churches.

Pointy churches hurt God's hand and poke holes in Him, so he won't flatten the city and make it go away.

I'm actually pretty sure that it was just cultural. After all, it is very clear that two hetero's can enjoy a mutual friendship that is extrmemly deep, without it being a romantic one, additionally, we even see in Europe the trend of kissing as a greeting or farewell, they kissed a few times, but that says nothing of their sexuality.

Additionally, ask Bathseba what she thinks of David's apparent homosexuality... I bet she'd have something to say.

Maybe he was bi.

Because your own holy book says otherwise.

And if my religion is not based entirely off a holy book, particularly not off of a holy book put together by people who were essentially politicians who did their own picking and choosing in what to include?

I wouldn't call it organized exactly.

Then why do you assume that Christianity has to be?


I was referring less to my beliefs about the divine and more to my beliefs about what the divine wants from us humans and what angers them.

=)

Wouldn't those also be beliefs about the divine?

Two reasons. Primarily because when I used to be Christian that's what the churches in my area taught. Even after rejecting them it's hard to forget what got drummed in even if I don't follow it.

And the churches in other areas teach differently. And Christians who do not join any particular church believe differently. Etc....

You're trying to fit the term "Christianity" into a small box that excludes quite a few Christians.

Secondly because in the words of your own Saviour He did not come to change the Laws but to fulfill them. to reject the OT in whole or in part would be to CHANGE the Laws.

And what laws exactly was he talking about? It's important to remember here that the OT was not codified at this point - various sects of Judaism emphasized different laws. It's also important to note that Christ himself is described numerous times as breaking what many of the the Jewish leaders at the time held to be "the law".

Not to mention the description of Christ telling us exactly what the most important law is: Love God with all your heart and do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

While that sounds nice in theory - where do these people get their knowledge of God if not from writings or other people ? Not everyone can speak to god directly, and relying entirely on personal reflection tends to lead to very narrow views.

Actually, in my case, I was very narrowminded, and I can see very clearly that when I started turning more, and more to personal reflection, my views broadened significantly, I'm still conservative, I'm still Christian, but now I read the Bible, and commune with God on the meaning, sometimes it s clear to me, sometimes not, but to quote: "For who can know the mind of God?" (thats in the Bible somewhere, I've always been to lazy to look it up though, sorry)

Actually they do, what with their eating of pork and various other portions of Leviticus ignored.

Umm, thats not Cherry-picking, Jesus said we didn't have to follow that one... maybe you missed it, but then again, now who's cherry-picking?

(Implicitly, you are the one who is now cherry-picking)

Actually, in my case, I was very narrowminded, and I can see very clearly that when I started turning more, and more to personal reflection, my views broadened significantly, I'm still conservative, I'm still Christian, but now I read the Bible, and commune with God on the meaning, sometimes it s clear to me, sometimes not, but to quote: "For who can know the mind of God?" (thats in the Bible somewhere, I've always been to lazy to look it up though, sorry)

Indeed. I find that it is those who do not question whatever teaching comes down to them from the pulpit (or other authority figure) who have the narrowest views. True personal reflection will involve questioning, and questioning leads us to consider other possibilities...

Umm, thats not Cherry-picking, Jesus said we didn't have to follow that one... maybe you missed it, but then again, now who's cherry-picking?

(Implicitly, you are the one who is now cherry-picking)

To be fair, Jesus is never depicted as actually saying that. Paul says it. I believe he states that it came from Jesus in a dream, but it was a point of contention in the early church.

Umm, thats not Cherry-picking, Jesus said we didn't have to follow that one... maybe you missed it, but then again, now who's cherry-picking?

Never heard a Jesus quote that said pork eating is now OK. Care to provide it?

And if my religion is not based entirely off a holy book, particularly not off of a holy book put together by people who were essentially politicians who did their own picking and choosing in what to include?



Then why do you assume that Christianity has to be?



=)

Wouldn't those also be beliefs about the divine?



And the churches in other areas teach differently. And Christians who do not join any particular church believe differently. Etc....

You're trying to fit the term "Christianity" into a small box that excludes quite a few Christians.



And what laws exactly was he talking about? It's important to remember here that the OT was not codified at this point - various sects of Judaism emphasized different laws. It's also important to note that Christ himself is described numerous times as breaking what many of the the Jewish leaders at the time held to be "the law".

Not to mention the description of Christ telling us exactly what the most important law is: Love God with all your heart and do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

I agree with everything in this post.

A comment about the last two paragraph's:

Christ didnn't change the law for everyone, you have to remember that after He left, people who followed Him were Jewish, and they maintained their Judaism, but what of the Gentile convert? Why should he be held to Jewish law if he isn't Jewish, but rather recognizing his salvation from the Jewish God?

Te term "Messianic Jew" refers to a Jewish person who has accepted Jesus as the Christ. I wouldn't consider this person entirely a Christian, because he is still upholding Jewish law, and tradition, while at the same time believing in the so-far-only real candidate for Jewish Messiah. I was never a Jew in my life, so who's rules am I going to follow? Moses', or Jesus'? A Jew should follow both, certainly, after all, he is Jewish. I am not now, nor have ever been Jewish, so why would I follow Jewish law?

Christ didnn't change the law for everyone, you have to remember that after He left, people who followed Him were Jewish, and they maintained their Judaism, but what of the Gentile convert? Why should he be held to Jewish law if he isn't Jewish, but rather recognizing his salvation from the Jewish God?

Congratulations, that's the first argument I've heard for Christians ignoring OT Law that makes sense.

Never heard a Jesus quote that said pork eating is now OK. Care to provide it?

Mark 7:19.

Additionally Paul supported the idea of a non-limited diet. Paul was a Gentile, why would he follow Jewish Law on a matter that apparently didn't concern Jesus?

Congratulations, that's the first argument I've heard for Christians ignoring OT Law that makes sense.

Thank you.

Though I wouldn't use the term 'ignore' but I guess that is preference, lol.

Indeed. I find that it is those who do not question whatever teaching comes down to them from the pulpit (or other authority figure) who have the narrowest views. True personal reflection will involve questioning, and questioning leads us to consider other possibilities...



To be fair, Jesus is never depicted as actually saying that. Paul says it. I believe he states that it came from Jesus in a dream, but it was a point of contention in the early church.

Mark 7:19.

Also, the early Church was comprised more heavily of Jews, who no doubt would feel the strain of such 'lawbreakeing' more heavily.

Mark 7:19.

Thanks, I was unfamiliar with that passage. 7:14-19 would be a better reference for others, just to get the whole thing into context.

Maybe he was bi.

Lol, I was waiting for that. Other than that I'm pretty sure the kiss was a cultural sign of close friendship, I don't have any scholarly backing on hand to refute that at all.

So in other words: Yeah maybe.

Thanks, I was unfamiliar with that passage. 7:14-19 would be a better reference for others, just to get the whole thing into context.

Yeah, but it took me forever to find in the first place, and every source I found ended with :19, and I wanted to get back to on it, so I didn't take the time to get the rest of it.

I'm a fairly lazy guy, lol.

EDIT: as a comic sidenote I have to go now for the moment anyway, it stupid snowed stupid here, and now I have to stupid shovel the stupid sidewalk.

What? :p

From the guidance of God.

so you personally have talked to god?

I'm actually pretty sure that it was just cultural. After all, it is very clear that two hetero's can enjoy a mutual friendship that is extrmemly deep, without it being a romantic one, additionally, we even see in Europe the trend of kissing as a greeting or farewell, they kissed a few times, but that says nothing of their sexuality.

Additionally, ask Bathseba what she thinks of David's apparent homosexuality... I bet she'd have something to say.

It doesn't matter about your, Bathseda, or even my interpretation. what matters is the people reading it. It differs from person to person.

Other scholars, however, interpret the love between David and Jonathan as more intimate than friendship.[1][2] This interpretation views the bonds the men shared as romantic love, regardless of whether or not the relationship was physically consummated. Jonathan and David cared deeply about each other in a way that was certainly more tender and intimate than a platonic friendship.

The relationship between the two men is addressed with the same words and emphasis as loving heterosexual relationships in the Hebrew Testament: e.g. 'ahavah or אהבה (see Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon, Hebrew word #160; Gen. 29:20; 2 Sam. 13:15; Pro. 5:19; Sgs. 2:4-7; Sgs. 3:5-10; Sgs. 5:8) When they are alone together, David confides that he has "found grace" in Jonathan's eyes. Throughout the passages, David and Jonathan consistently affirm and reaffirm their love and devotion to each other. Jonathan is willing to betray his father, family, wealth, and traditions for David.

Wiki for the fun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_and_jonathan)

Besides, the bible also says these things:

"You shall not approach a woman to have intercourse with her while she is unclean from menstruation."

"Keep my statutes: do not breed any of your domestic animals with others of a different species; do not sow a field of yours with two different kinds of seed; and do not put on a garment woven with two different kinds of thread."

"Do not clip your hair at the temples, nor trim the edges of your beard."

"Do not lacerate your bodies for the dead, and do not tattoo yourselves."

And so on, and so forth ;)

To each his/her own. Do as ye will as long as ye harm none. I could really care less for what others do as long as they don't interfere with me or my family.

Mark 7:19.

Given the similar passage in another gospel and the context of the statement, it could be argued that it refers to the fact that the disciples had not washed their hands, rather than to the type of food they were eating.


so you personally have talked to god?

Not in the sense of meeting for coffee or something like that.

But I have prayed and I do believe I have received guidance.

Except doesnt the Bible make that claim?

No, it doesn't. Paul makes that claim, and Paul isn't God.

Not in the sense of meeting for coffee or something like that.

But I have prayed and I do believe I have received guidance.

Pray tell, what guidance has he given you? Seriously, just wondering, because the last time someone told me that, they brought up a sudden bust of wind as proof... (not a lie, either, which was why I wanted to claw my eyes out in disbelief).

Well all sensible religions condemn homosexuality, and any that dont are weak, and have given in to liberalist ideals
Old testament religions mostly cast gays out, and new testament ones are written by crybabies who want a happy daydream world where everyone is set into a blind happy happy mindset - trust me, i know new testament christians, and they say to give gays a chance - help them convert to the faith and stop sinning

thing is, most gays are so militant to be what they are, and would not stop doing what they do, but would still lie to themselves that they have a chance in hell to get into heaven

You cant get into heaven by dying as an unrepentant sinner, repent or be damned forever

I'll assume here that you mean you found an organized religion that largely agrees with what you believe.

No, he found a disorganized religion. And since within this elaborate come on disguised as a religion (or is it the other way around?), you can pretty much believe whatever you want, I guess you could say he found a religion that agrees with what he believes.

And I should know, I married him.

Well all sensible religions condemn homosexuality, and any that dont are weak, and have given in to liberalist ideals
Old testament religions mostly cast gays out, and new testament ones are written by crybabies who want a happy daydream world where everyone is set into a blind happy happy mindset - trust me, i know new testament christians, and they say to give gays a chance - help them convert to the faith and stop sinning

thing is, most gays are so militant to be what they are, and would not stop doing what they do, but would still lie to themselves that they have a chance in hell to get into heaven

You cant get into heaven by dying as an unrepentant sinner, repent or be damned forever

Was this an attack on homosexuals?

Well all sensible religions condemn homosexuality, and any that dont are weak, and have given in to liberalist ideals
Old testament religions mostly cast gays out, and new testament ones are written by crybabies who want a happy daydream world where everyone is set into a blind happy happy mindset - trust me, i know new testament christians, and they say to give gays a chance - help them convert to the faith and stop sinning

thing is, most gays are so militant to be what they are, and would not stop doing what they do, but would still lie to themselves that they have a chance in hell to get into heaven

You cant get into heaven by dying as an unrepentant sinner, repent or be damned forever

Way to be tolerant! And not all sensible religions have condemned homosexuality. Most forms of paganism, many Buddhist sects, and I think many Hindu sects (I could be wrong here, Hinduism isn't my strong suit) all at least tolerate gays.

Paul isn't God.

Source?

Kidding. ;)

Christ didnn't change the law for everyone, you have to remember that after He left, people who followed Him were Jewish, and they maintained their Judaism, but what of the Gentile convert? Why should he be held to Jewish law if he isn't Jewish, but rather recognizing his salvation from the Jewish God?

But Jesus brought a new Covenant when he was declared the son of God, didn't he? Wasn't that part of his appeal, that he was making an entirely new religion, with new rules (love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek, etc)? Or have I read Lamb a few too many times?

:rolleyes:I mean if the Bible is interpreted the right way, homosexuality among christians should be allowed. :rolleyes:Jesus taught that the most important thing is love. :rolleyes:If god is love, and god is boundless then love is also boundless.:rolleyes:There are some texts n the Bible that condem homosexulaity, yes, but sometimes we've got to think for ourselves; because the BIble is not written by God but people. :pMost protestant churches accept homosexuality.

Except doesnt the Bible make that claim?

Curious...

.

Not exactly. For those into that sort of thing, the Bible uses the words "according to" or otherwise attributes the writings to Human sources (ie, St Paul's Epistle to Titus). If you believe in the absolute and perfect accuracy of the bible, then all you can get out the Gospel According to St. Luke is that these are the 100% accurately reported words of St. Luke.

This says nothing about whether St Luke's words are true or not, merely that they have been recorded with perfect accuracy.

The old testament, on the other hand, has bits that claim that God literally spoke the words.

new testament ones are written by crybabies who want a happy daydream world where everyone is set into a blind happy happy mindset

Seems to me that an all-loving God would want that too. Are you suggesting God is an omnipotent, omniscient jerk?

Pray tell, what guidance has he given you? Seriously, just wondering, because the last time someone told me that, they brought up a sudden bust of wind as proof... (not a lie, either, which was why I wanted to claw my eyes out in disbelief).

I've never interpreted a burst of wind as any message from God. It's more internal than that.

I can't give you "proof" of something like this, nor would I try. Either your own experience has led you to believe it, or it has not.

No, he found a disorganized religion. And since within this elaborate come on disguised as a religion (or is it the other way around?), you can pretty much believe whatever you want, I guess you could say he found a religion that agrees with what he believes.

And I should know, I married him.

Why would anyone need someone else to tell them that they can believe what they want?

When it comes right down to it, every individual's religion is different from the next person. I'm not sure why one would need a group of people telling you that this is acceptable in order to form that religion.

Why would anyone need someone else to tell them that they can believe what they want?

When it comes right down to it, every individual's religion is different from the next person. I'm not sure why one would need a group of people telling you that this is acceptable in order to form that religion.

Peer review ?

Why would anyone need someone else to tell them that they can believe what they want?

When it comes right down to it, every individual's religion is different from the next person. I'm not sure why one would need a group of people telling you that this is acceptable in order to form that religion.

Exactly! This is why I find Discordianism and Paganism so appealing, you get to decide what you believe in, and if others agree with you, you can tell them to fuck off, or you can form a circle. Or coven. Or Cabal. Plus, Eris is a bitch, but she's a fun bitch.

Seriously people, there are religions out there that DON'T tell you that your a bad person just because of who you love. Why don't more homosexuals either convert to one of them or become Atheists?

Despite what many modern Christians believe, the beliefs of Christianity were not laid in stone some two thousand years ago-in fact, Jesus himself set down an ill-defined process for modification with "That which you establish on Earth I shall maintain in Heaven". While Mosaic Law condemns homosexuality, early Christians were somewhat lax about it until Christianity was threatened by Islam, and the Pope dredged up that old chestnut when he realized many of the Islamic forces threatening Christianity-most notably the Jannisaries who fought for the Othmans-were predominantly homosexual.
The Church takes the somewhat contrary view that BEING homosexual is not a sin, but performing a homosexual act IS a sin these days, and even that will change in time.
Jesus himself did not speak out against homosexuality, and he certainly had ample opportunity to do so-it was fairly common in his era, especially among the Romans. Thus, Jesus had no problem with it, and he preached every man should have a one-on-one with God. Since the various bigots who claim to follow God do not speak for Him, I see no contradiction in homosexuals following Him, though I do question those who try to force their religion to capitulate-Jesus himself had a deep distrust of organized religion.
Since God is all-knowing and all-forgiving, I have no problem with Christian homosexuals, nor would I deny a homosexual individual could have a one-on-one with God that transcended "the Law". It's not mentioned in the Ten Commandments, nor does it violate "Do Unto Others as You Would Have Them Do Unto You-that is the Whole of the Law-the rest is commentary."
Never confuse the small-mindedness of Man with the intentions of God.

Peer review ?

LOL

"You can believe what every you want."

"Awesome! I believe ..."

*interrupts* "Whatever you believe is fine."

Seriously people, there are religions out there that DON'T tell you that your a bad person just because of who you love. Why don't more homosexuals either convert to one of them or become Atheists?

Why do you assume homosexuals believe homosexuality is 'right'?

Seriously people, there are religions out there that DON'T tell you that your a bad person just because of who you love. Why don't more homosexuals either convert to one of them or become Atheists?

For the same reason there are Log Cabin Republicans. (http://online.logcabin.org/)

I however do not know the reason.

Why do you assume homosexuals believe homosexuality is 'right'?

Why do you assume heterosexuality is 'right'? We've seen both in nature.

Why do you assume heterosexuality is 'right'? We've seen both in nature.

That wasn't the point. The point was that there are many Ted Haggards.

There are christian sects out there who's interpretation of the bible does not condemn gays.
There are also christians who believe that being a good person is by far more important that who you sleep with.

But according to the bible..

Sodomy = punishable by death

Why do you assume heterosexuality is 'right'? We've seen both in nature.

Nature tells nothing on that subject, so it's moot to bring nature up.

Gay+Nuke= Happy Christians;)

Gay+Nuke= Happy Christians;)

Or, conversely:

Anti-Gay Christians + Nuke = Happy gays ;)

Or, conversely:

Anti-Gay Christians + Nuke = Happy gays ;)

Anti-Gay Christians + Gays + Others+ Nuke= Happy Dead World :p

Anti-Gay Christians + Gays + Others+ Nuke= Happy Dead World :p

Or, conversely:

Anti-Gay Christians + Nuke = Happy gays ;)

Gay+Nuke= Happy Christians;)

Guys who are using nukes and happy [dead] people in equations + hydrogen cyanide + enclosed chamber which contains all of this = happy me

Seriously people, there are religions out there that DON'T tell you that your a bad person just because of who you love. Why don't more homosexuals either convert to one of them or become Atheists?

its sad when instead of switching to a christian sect that has no problems with homosexuality they try to conform to the hateful teachings of the sect they were raised in.

most, i suppose, do what we all do--ignore the parts we dont like so we can enjoy the parts that make sense to us.

Anti-Gay Christians + Gays + Others+ Nuke= Happy Dead World :p

Dont worry, im sure the USA will find a reason to nuke us all and solve all the worlds differences

We'll all be much happier with a mushroom cloudy day to take away our problems

Dont worry, im sure the USA will find a reason to nuke us all and solve all the worlds differences

We'll all be much happier with a mushroom cloudy day to take away our problems

Is there any topic you cant troll about how much you hate blacks, jews or the US in?

why do you assume all Christians have to accept the whole Bible as "the holy book"?

Why do you jump to the conclusion that he thinks (or more accurately, since the parenthetical is pretty obviously meant towards me, I think) that all christians 'have to accept the whole bible' as the holy book.

Then why do you assume that Christianity has to be?

Hate to break it to you Dem, but christianity is an organized religion. Organized and homogeneous do not mean the same thing.

Doesn't it say in the bible to love and respect all living beings?
And as far as I know, most homosexuals go under the category "all living beings".

Hate to break it to you Dem, but christianity is an organized religion. Organized and homogeneous do not mean the same thing.

Organized means....organized.

The Roman Catholic Church is an organized religion. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is an organized religion. And so on....

Christianity encompasses many organized religions, as well as individual beliefs that fall into that category but not into any of the organized sects. It is not, itself, an "organized religion".

Warning: The following is US-Centric:

Democrats, Green Party members, and various independents may fall under the category "liberal". However, "liberal" is not itself a political party.

Republicans, Libertarians, and various independents may fall under the category "conservative". However, "conservative" is not itself a political party.

Likewise, Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Mormons, etc. and various Christians who are not a member of any given denomination all fall under the category of Christianity. They do not, however, make up one organized religion.

People who bash gays and use Christianity as a shield piss me off like no other.

While we're pointing fingers, it seems that Mormons and white Baptists below the Mason-Dixon line are the worst, with the Catholic Church coming in third.

Although I recently learned that my old pastor, a man that I love and respect very much believes that homosexuality is a, "disease" that can, "be cured." I mean what the fuck? He's an extremely intelligent person too, I thought he would be above that. Ugh, fucking intollerant assholes. :mad:

Organized means....organized.

The Roman Catholic Church is an organized religion. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is an organized religion. And so on....

Christianity encompasses many organized religions, as well as individual beliefs that fall into that category but not into any of the organized sects. It is not, itself, an "organized religion".

Warning: The following is US-Centric:

Democrats, Green Party members, and various independents may fall under the category "liberal". However, "liberal" is not itself a political party.

Republicans, Libertarians, and various independents may fall under the category "conservative". However, "conservative is not itself a political party.

Likewise, Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox, Mormons, etc. and various Christians who are not a member of any given denomination all fall under the category of Christianity. They do not, however, make up one organized religion.

See, everything you said is nothing but the truth, but people will never be able to understand this concept. Especially people here with Christianity not being one big group, and pretty much all Americans who believe that Republican = conservative and Democrat = Liberal.

I try to explain this to people, but it goes through one ear and out the other.

Are you suggesting God is an omnipotent, omniscient jerk?

Jehovah in the Old Testament certainly was...

People who bash gays and use Christianity as a shield piss me off like no other.

People who bash Christianity and use gays as a shield piss me off too. Honestly, using those poor homosexuals as human shields while storming a church, just so all the clergy and parishioners recoil in disgust shouting 'Unclean! Unclean!'. It's barbaric. Some have the crucifix bruises to prove it.