NationStates Jolt Archive

Islam has finally surpassed Catholicism in membership. I, for one, say good because the Christians have reigned far too long and have caused nothing but trouble from day one. I do wonder what bragging rights this gives Muslims. I wonder what Osama and Company will have to say about this.

Also, note that it is not conversions, but birth rates. Far more Muslims are being born than Catholics. And Christianity overall still makes far more than Islam.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080330/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_muslims)

VATICAN CITY - Islam has surpassed Roman Catholicism as the world's largest religion, the Vatican newspaper said Sunday.

"For the first time in history, we are no longer at the top: Muslims have overtaken us," Monsignor Vittorio Formenti said in an interview with the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano. Formenti compiles the Vatican's yearbook.

He said that Catholics accounted for 17.4 percent of the world population — a stable percentage — while Muslims were at 19.2 percent.

"It is true that while Muslim families, as is well known, continue to make a lot of children, Christian ones on the contrary tend to have fewer and fewer," the monsignor said.

Formenti said that the data refer to 2006. The figures on Muslims were put together by Muslim countries and then provided to the United Nations, he said, adding that the Vatican could only vouch for its own data.

When considering all Christians and not just Catholics, Christians make up 33 percent of the world population, Formenti said.

Spokesmen for the Vatican and the United Nations did not immediately return phone calls seeking comment Sunday.

*leaves thread before debate starts*

Islam has finally surpassed Catholicism in membership. I, for one, say good because the Christians have reigned far too long and have caused nothing but trouble from day one. I do wonder what bragging rights this gives Muslims. I wonder what Osama and Company will have to say about this.
Christians have largely done alright as leaders, they've had their ups and downs. Claiming that Muslims are automatically better because they're different is a bit ridiculous. That's like saying that drinking vinegar instead of water is better, because people have been drinking water for TOO LONG NOW!
*leaves thread before debate starts*
Wise move.

Glad to hear it. But I fear this will just inflame anti-Islamics and we'll start hearing cries of Muslims trying to overrun us all...

ZOMG! THIS IS T3H GREAT!

Seriously now, who cares?

why should the roman catholic church be compared to all of islam?

shouldnt it be sunni vs catholic or christian vs islam?

Crap, now I'm going to have to learn the Koran. :p

why should the roman catholic church be compared to all of islam?

shouldnt it be sunni vs catholic or christian vs islam?
Because that would attract less people to the thread, of course!

Because that would attract less people to the thread, of course!

i hate it when i miss the obvious

All of God's fan clubs suck. *nod*

Why is it that Roman Catholicism is considered a distinct religion, whereas Sunni or Shi'ite Islam are just considered "sects"? What's the difference?

This isn't good: few Islamic countries have good economies, and even fewer have economies which aren't heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. High birth rates are a great way to keep populations in poverty.

Dawkins had a wonderful quote in one of his books about religious groups who oppose the use of contraception:

"It is a simple logical truth that, short of mass emigration into space, with rockets taking off at the rate of several million per second, uncontrolled birth-rates are bound to lead to horribly increased death-rates. It is hard to believe that this simple truth is not understood by those leaders who forbid their followers to use effective contraceptive methods. They express a preference for 'natural' methods of population limitation, and a natural method is exactly what they are going to get. It is called starvation."

i hate it when i miss the obvious
S'OK, I'm probably just being extremely cynical, as I'm wont to be. I'm sure there's an actually good reason out there somewhere.

S'OK, I'm probably just being extremely cynical, as I'm wont to be. I'm sure there's an actually good reason out there somewhere.

i can only think of 2

the press has no idea there are different sects of islam just as there are different sects of christianity or the catholic church considers itself all of christianity so the other christian churches dont count for this purpose

i can only think of 2

the press has no idea there are different sects of islam just as there are different sects of christianity or the catholic church considers itself all of christianity so the other christian churches dont count for this purpose
A fair analysis of it.

This isn't good: few Islamic countries have good economies, and even fewer have economies which aren't heavily dependent on fossil fuel exports. High birth rates are a great way to keep populations in poverty.

I'm confused by the second half of this statement. The majority of Muslim majority countries are not major oil exporters, or are you saying the majority of Muslim majority countries that have decent economies are major oil exporters?

there are more Christians overall. And the Church does do great good in the world today with its charities and peace activism. The Holy Roman Empire is over.

Besides, the Islamic birthrate will surely go down once they get some money in the Middle East.

i hate it when i miss the obvious

This made me laugh...

Besides, the Islamic birthrate will surely go down once they get some money in the Middle East.
The problem is not the supply of money. The problem is that it's going straight into the hands of a select few. But there we go.

One scary dogmatic religion being eclipsed by another. *shudder*

Besides, the Islamic birthrate will surely go down once they get some money in the Middle East.
I agree. High birthrate = high deathrate. Many first-world countries' population growths are declining because of a higher health standard.

One group of abrahamics now outnumber another group of abrahamics. hmmmm.

I fail to see that it's a critical moment for anything.

1. As has been said, this is only RC Christians as opposed to all flavours of Islam, so is pretty much a meaningless stat, since Christianity (all flavours) still outnumbers Islam (all flavours) and will do for a long time yet.

2. I's not really a numbers game. The real religious conflict is over power of influence. Thanks to the structure of Christianity, with the unique role of the Pope, RC Christianity even when outnumbered has far more power over it's followers. Islam has no such centralised power structure, making a numerical edge largely academic.

3. While some people might say yay for Islam, it's going to be bad for Muslims in the west as it will play into the hands of anti-immigration islamophobic types.

I agree. High birthrate = high deathrate. Many first-world countries' population growths are declining because of a higher health standard.

Maybe not... Birth rates remain high in the wealthy arab states (UAE, Kuwait, KSA et al) as social changes there have not mirrored those of the west when the west developed post WW2. There is no reason why they should really. The only real push factor that may change this is if the value of salaries drops suddenly or sharply against a rising cost of living, forcing women out to join the workplace.

It's a demographi timb bomb in Saudi Arabia and Egypt as both countries are failing to address unemployment and have very high birth rates. Saudi Arabia can't get it's economy diversified in any meaningful manner and Egypt is taking a huge gamble that the Toshka project is going to pay off. Of the two Egypt has tried to stem the birth rate several times, never sucessfully. Poor education on birth control was and remains a major issue. Saudi Arabia has not attempted it yet as far as I am aware.

This matters how?

This matters how?

It shows how teh ebil mosl3ms are over running the world?

It shows how teh ebil mosl3ms are over running the world?

Like THAT'S going too actually happen in my or any of my friend or families life time if at all? As an aside, who are the "ebil mosl3ms"? I thought we were talking about Muslims(;)).

Like THAT'S going too actually happen in my or any of my friend or families life time if at all? As an aside, who are the "ebil mosl3ms"? I thought we were talking about Muslims(;)).

exactly

Islam has finally surpassed Catholicism in membership. I, for one, say good because the Christians have reigned far too long and have caused nothing but trouble from day one.
Oh yes and Muslims have been a bundle of joy. You crucify Christianity for its lack of support of women's rights (abortion etc) but Islam which is far harsher on women doesn't suffer that same criticism.


Far more Muslims are being born than Catholics. And Christianity overall still makes far more than Islam.

Interesting, because families with higher IQs on average have less children that those families with lower IQs.

Glad to hear it. But I fear this will just inflame anti-Islamics and we'll start hearing cries of Muslims trying to overrun us all...

overrun?

:eek:

MUSLIMS ARE THE ZERG!!!!

Looks like it's time for more expansion and bigger birthrates from Catholic immigrants! Let's colonize Mars!

Interesting, because families with higher IQs on average have less children that those families with lower IQs.

Source?

That sounds reasonable, but I would still like to see some studies done.

So? 1.5 billion is still not bigger than 2.1 billion. Besides, its not the amount of people you have, its their quality. Christians just simply have a better quality on whole, than most muslims.

Islam has finally surpassed Catholicism in membership. I, for one, say good because the Christians have reigned far too long and have caused nothing but trouble from day one. I do wonder what bragging rights this gives Muslims. I wonder what Osama and Company will have to say about this.

Also, note that it is not conversions, but birth rates. Far more Muslims are being born than Catholics. And Christianity overall still makes far more than Islam.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080330/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_muslims)



*leaves thread before debate starts*

So looking at this, they surpassed Catholicism. Ok so what? That tells me that there are still more Christians than Muslims.

So? 1.5 billion is still not bigger than 2.1 billion. Besides, its not the amount of people you have, its their quality. Christians just simply have a better quality on whole, than most muslims.

Slow down there Cletus! Trying to compare people on that scale is impossible, and offensive no matter how you do it. :rolleyes:

Islam has finally surpassed Catholicism in membership.

That's like comparing a PS3's power cord to an entire Wii and then claiming that the Wii is more expensive.

Slow down their Cletus! Trying to compare people on that scale is impossible, and offensive no matter how you do it. :rolleyes:

You forgot, you are talking to the authority on human quality. It's alright, everyone makes that mistake.;)

The figures on Muslims were put together by Muslim countries and then provided to the United Nations, he said, adding that the Vatican could only vouch for its own data.

I love the spin doctoring on this...the Vatican takes the numbers the Muslim countries themselves provided (so who knows how accurate they really are, especially considering following Islam in many of those countries is not a choice), conveniently forgets that Catholicism is a sect of Christianity and that Islam also has different sects and creates this image of "the evil Muslims are overtaking us! Look how many of them are there compared to us!"

Genius, really.

Catholocism vs Christianity, the battle to see who can convert more poor ignorant peasants in the third world. Who will win, YOU DECIDE.

For second I was going to imagine people would read the title as "Islam suppresses Catholicism in membership" and this thread would be flooded by the 101st Fighting Keyboarders rushing to the defense against them ebil moslems and their durn calif8.

I love the spin doctoring on this...the Vatican takes the numbers the Muslim countries themselves provided (so who knows how accurate they really are, especially considering following Islam in many of those countries is not a choice), conveniently forgets that Catholicism is a sect of Christianity and that Islam also has different sects and creates this image of "the evil Muslims are overtaking us! Look how many of them are there compared to us!"

Genius, really.

doesnt it make you want to give up using birth control?

If these Christians are so fond of thinking that they are being persecuted, under threat etc, why don't we just do it for them? Let's make big Colosseums and feed Christians to the lions for entertainment!

Catholocism vs Christianity, the battle to see who can convert more poor ignorant peasants in the third world. Who will win, YOU DECIDE.

Where does Islam figure into your equation, because I don't think Catholics would rather have a person convert to Islam before converting to the Anglican Church.

If these Christians are so fond of thinking that they are being persecuted, under threat etc, why don't we just do it for them? Let's make big Colosseums and feed Christians to the lions for entertainment!

I think we shouldn't discriminate on who gets fed to lions, except affirmative action should be given to women, so they can have equal opportunity.

I love the spin doctoring on this...the Vatican takes the numbers the Muslim countries themselves provided (so who knows how accurate they really are, especially considering following Islam in many of those countries is not a choice), conveniently forgets that Catholicism is a sect of Christianity and that Islam also has different sects and creates this image of "the evil Muslims are overtaking us! Look how many of them are there compared to us!"

Genius, really.
Uh...I don't really see any spin. This just seems to be another instance of the media's creepy obsession with anything someone that lives in the Vatican says. Maybe because it's the last place in the western world with a "royal court," or maybe it's because it's easy to disguise as hard news, but newspapers and television love the place.
doesnt it make you want to give up using birth control?
I'm guessing the Muslims will slack off for a few years, with the hubris that accompanies success. If Catholics just work twice as hard, we can retake the lead by 2010. :)

doesnt it make you want to give up using birth control?

:D

Reminds me of a story involving Muhammad Ali (the 19th century Egyptian governor, not the boxer)- since he was so obsessed with creating the perfect Egyptian Army, he realized he had to spend on health care just so Egyptian mothers could produce more babies (and thus, eventually, more soldiers). Maybe this is the Vatican's answer?

Uh...I don't really see any spin. This just seems to be another instance of the media's creepy obsession with anything someone that lives in the Vatican says. Maybe because it's the last place in the western world with a "royal court," or maybe it's because it's easy to disguise as hard news, but newspapers and television love the place.

It's the Vatican that provided the numbers, not the media. The article quotes the Curia as the one claiming there's more Muslims in the world than Catholics- the newspaper didn't come up with the figure and brought it to the Vatican's attention. So it's spin doctoring, because the Vatican are the ones resposible for fudging the numbers.

It's the Vatican that provided the numbers, not the media. The article quotes the Curia as the one claiming there's more Muslims in the world than Catholics- the newspaper didn't come up with the figure and brought it to the Vatican's attention. So it's spin doctoring, because the Vatican are the ones resposible for fudging the numbers.
Yes, because Monsignor Vittorio Formenti is the sinister leader of the most insidious organization in the Church today: the Vatican Yearbook. *Waits for gasps and "Dear God!"s* Of course he's the one that compiles the stats. And for a country of fewer than 1,000, you can't really do much better than assume the Islamic countries are telling.

Christians, POPULATE OR PERISH!! We need more numbers or teh ebil saracens will occupy our lands!

no wonder they are against homosexuality...

Christians, POPULATE OR PERISH!! We need more numbers or teh ebil saracens will occupy our lands!

It has already begun, AP. Look around.:eek:
Teh Ebil Moors are here!

J/K!;)

If these Christians are so fond of thinking that they are being persecuted, under threat etc, why don't we just do it for them? Let's make big Colosseums and feed Christians to the lions for entertainment!

You go first and we'll think about it.

I fail to see how this is a good thing, saying "It's a change so it must be good" is pretty idiotic. At least catholics seem to be getting less and less observant, at least in the developed world. However, islamic militancy seems to be a growing problem. The islamic leaders won't be any better than the christian leaders, if anything they'll be more like the christian rulers of the middle ages than the christian rulers of today.

hay moros en la costa!

I highly doubt any population data given by many Islamic countries cannot be considered factual, heck I think maybe only Egypt can publish accurate info.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13569432']I fail to see how this is a good thing, saying "It's a change so it must be good" is pretty idiotic. At least catholics seem to be getting less and less observant, at least in the developed world. However, islamic militancy seems to be a growing problem. The islamic leaders won't be any better than the christian leaders, if anything they'll be more like the christian rulers of the middle ages than the christian rulers of today.
Indeed it seems like so many here are just filled with irrational hatred of Christianity that they will applaud ANYTHING against it, even if the thing in question happens to actually be worse....

You don't have to be Christian (and it seems neither I nor you are) to understand that Christianity is much more enlightend, reformed, relaxed and civilized in todays world THAN Islam is.....so applauding the growth of Islam is hardly something that anyone who likes the ideals of the European enlightenment should be doing.....

Indeed it seems like so many here are just filled with irrational hatred of Christianity that they will applaud ANYTHING against it, even if the thing in question happens to actually be worse....

You don't have to be Christian (and it seems neither I nor you are) to understand that Christianity is much more enlightend, reformed, relaxed and civilized in todays world THAN Islam is.....so applauding the growth of Islam is hardly something that anyone who likes the ideals of the European enlightenment should be doing.....

The Army of God is enlightened? I'm sure they see themselves as such, but I hope you won't blame me if I don't take that particular view of yet another religiously affiliated terrorist organization.

After all, if one can take a portion of a whole and apply it to the whole, it's certainly unfair to do so for just one religion no?

The Army of God is enlightened? I'm sure they see themselves as such, but I hope you won't blame me if I don't take that particular view of yet another religiously affiliated terrorist organization.

After all, if one can take a portion of a whole and apply it to the whole, it's certainly unfair to do so for just one religion no?
Ah, typical response. Overlook or ignore that I said that Christianity is much more enlightend, reformed, relaxed and civilized in todays world THAN Islam.

Now. Tell me with a straight face that it is not. This is a comparison. Nothing more, nothing less.

The title looks like suppresses, that really confused me.

I read it as:

Islam SUPPRESSES Catholicism in membership

Indeed it seems like so many here are just filled with irrational hatred of Christianity that they will applaud ANYTHING against it, even if the thing in question happens to actually be worse....

You don't have to be Christian (and it seems neither I nor you are) to understand that Christianity is much more enlightend, reformed, relaxed and civilized in todays world THAN Islam is.....so applauding the growth of Islam is hardly something that anyone who likes the ideals of the European enlightenment should be doing.....
You're partly correct, I will tend to glorify Islam incessantly to Christians I know if for the only reason of pissing them off.

I'm Protestant so I don't care, and I consider all sects of Christianity as all Christianity, so us Christians still win.

Yes, because Monsignor Vittorio Formenti is the sinister leader of the most insidious organization in the Church today: the Vatican Yearbook. *Waits for gasps and "Dear God!"s* Of course he's the one that compiles the stats. And for a country of fewer than 1,000, you can't really do much better than assume the Islamic countries are telling.

First of all, Msgr. Formenti is working in an official capacity for the Vatican as its primary Statistican (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000085&sid=a_kwOnwmOS8I&refer=europe). Second of all, he's compiling a report for a semi-official Vatican publication (the Vatican Yearbook) and relaying his findings to a semi-official Vatican newspaper (L'Osservatore Romano). Not only that, but the Vatican has for years deried its declining numbers, so no doubt Msgr. Formenti is adding fuel to this fire. So it seems to me like it's a story the Vatican itself would agree with (even if they haven't specifically endorsed it). Thirdly, the fact that Msgr. Formenti *is* the official statistician means that he *does* have power over the numbers and can twist them in any way that he wants. He makes no effort to differentiate between the different Islamic sects and treats Catholicism as if it were a seperate religion (as opposed to a sect itself). There's only one reason why he's doing it- wilful ignorance- because the Vatican knows it's not the only Christian sect (it just believes it's the only "true" one, which, while understandable, is incredibly naive and shortsighted) and a Vatican official, of all people, would probably know the Vatican's extensive history with Islam and thus would know that Islam itself is divided into different sects.

However, what's most telling to me is that Msgr. Formenti takes the Muslim countries' data at face value without questioning them when he- living in the West which has had a high dose of (not entirely deserved) skepticism of the Muslim world- has reason to question them. In fact, not only is he not questioning them, he's trumpeting them (what other purpose does he have talking to a newspaper primarily read by the devout and Churchpeople?). Obviously, he's pulling at Catholics' pride by making them "face the music" that they're no longer the most followed religion in the world. If this was a Muslim publication saying the same thing, no doubt Msgr. Formenti (among others) would rush to point out things like "well, how many of those 'Muslims' are forced to follow and how many of them are actual followers?" and "Catholicism isn't the 'only' Christian religion, much how there are different Muslim religions in Sunnism and Shi'ism, and comparitively the Christian groups consistently win out". The fact of the matter is he's gone to a sympathetic newspaper to talk to sympathetic followers with news they probably won't like to hear based on information that is dodgy but is convenient enough for him to "use" because he expects the Catholics to take action due to this "membership crisis". I don't care if Pope Benedict didn't say anything about this- the fact of the matter is this is still an attempt to put the Vatican and its members to action by "spinning" information. Thus, Msgr. Formenti qualifies as a spin doctor- and a very good one at that.

Ah, typical response. Overlook or ignore that I said that Christianity is much more enlightend, reformed, relaxed and civilized in todays world THAN Islam.

Now. Tell me with a straight face that it is not. This is a comparison. Nothing more, nothing less.

Typical response, yes, and a typical dodge on your part. There are religiously affiliated terrorist groups that purportedly fly under the flag of Islam. Christianity however, also has the same issues.

So how does this make Christianity supposedly more enlightened than Islam hmm?

You have failed to explain how there is a difference, and until you do, you have no support for your argument. I could easily say Pastafarinism is more enlightened than any religion in the world just as well.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13569432']I fail to see how this is a good thing, saying "It's a change so it must be good" is pretty idiotic. At least catholics seem to be getting less and less observant, at least in the developed world. However, islamic militancy seems to be a growing problem. The islamic leaders won't be any better than the christian leaders, if anything they'll be more like the christian rulers of the middle ages than the christian rulers of today.

Indeed it seems like so many here are just filled with irrational hatred of Christianity that they will applaud ANYTHING against it, even if the thing in question happens to actually be worse....

You don't have to be Christian (and it seems neither I nor you are) to understand that Christianity is much more enlightend, reformed, relaxed and civilized in todays world THAN Islam is.....so applauding the growth of Islam is hardly something that anyone who likes the ideals of the European enlightenment should be doing.....

^

Didn't take long for Monsignor Vittorio Formenti's spin to take hold I see, because this is precisely the response he wants- "oh no, we're not No. 1! We've got to DO something!"

Now, I understand you both aren't necessarily replying in lockstep with Msgr. Formenti, but, I ask, given the amount of skepticism the Muslim world itself receives from the West (regardless of how much it is deserved), do you believe the numbers Msgr. Formenti just quoted?

I highly doubt any population data given by many Islamic countries cannot be considered factual, heck I think maybe only Egypt can publish accurate info.

Which is what I've been saying all along (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13569270&postcount=36). How many of those Muslims are adherents in name only because the governments force them to go to the Mosque (think of Saudi Arabia, for one)? Do those countries intentionally underreport (if not cut out entirely) the parts of their population that are not Muslim? Do the countries just automatically assume that "anyone not actually accounted for" (i.e., people they know or think exist but didn't bother to ask) are Muslims?

This is precisely why I believe Msgr. Formenti is spin doctoring- he knows the numbers aren't accurate and would most likely call out the Muslim countries if they provided this news (not Msgr. Formenti), so the fact that he's taking the numbers at face value suggests that he wants to "use" them to fulfill a purpose. This is because the Vatican has for years derided the fact Church attendance has been declining and the fact that the Catholics are no longer No. 1 (behind the Muslims no less, a group the Church hasn't ever really gotten along with) just adds fuel to this fire. The numbers, therefore, are convenient because they fufill this purpose- even if, in the back of their heads, Msgr. Formenti and the rest of the Church knows they're wrong.

Praise Allah or the puppy gets it.

Typical response, yes, and a typical dodge on your part. There are religiously affiliated terrorist groups that purportedly fly under the flag of Islam. Christianity however, also has the same issues.

So how does this make Christianity supposedly more enlightened than Islam hmm?
I'd say the scale of the problem is what makes it more enlightened. Look at the success and popular support of islamic fundamentalist groups worldwide compared to that of christian fundamentalist ones.

^

Didn't take long for Monsignor Vittorio Formenti's spin to take hold I see, because this is precisely the response he wants- "oh no, we're not No. 1! We've got to DO something!"

Now, I understand you both aren't necessarily replying in lockstep with Msgr. Formenti, but, I ask, given the amount of skepticism the Muslim world itself receives from the West (regardless of how much it is deserved), do you believe the numbers Msgr. Formenti just quoted?
I agree with that post, I was sceptical to the exact numbers to begin with. To be honest, I don't think the exact numbers really matter a great deal. It's the political power that the religions wield which matter, and that comes from more than just numbers. I was responding to other posters' delusions that islam would somehow be better than modern christianity.

Anway, must be off now, it's very late and I'm only on the internet because I woke up and couldn't get back to sleep. Byeeeeee.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13569530']I'd say the scale of the problem is what makes it more enlightened. Look at the success and popular support of islamic fundamentalist groups worldwide compared to that of christian fundamentalist ones.

Then you have to compare that to how many fundamentalists Christians there are in government who can make law rather than fundamentalists Muslims who aren't in the government and can only make law through the barrel of a gun.

Assuming a ratio based calculation, since we don't have exact population statistics, compare the number of illicit extremist fundamentalist Christian groups and legal fundamentalist Christian power brokers to that their Muslim counterparts. If possible, run a separate calculation for total influence/power wielded between the two sub groups globally.

That would help create a more objective answer I imagine.

I have a theory that the less influence the power brokers will have, their illicit counterparts will expand to make up for the loss.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13569530']I'd say the scale of the problem is what makes it more enlightened. Look at the success and popular support of islamic fundamentalist groups worldwide compared to that of christian fundamentalist ones.

I agree with that post, I was sceptical to the exact numbers to begin with. To be honest, I don't think the exact numbers really matter a great deal. It's the political power that the religions wield which matter, and that comes from more than just numbers. I was responding to other posters' delusions that islam would somehow be better than modern christianity.

Anway, must be off now, it's very late and I'm only on the internet because I woke up and couldn't get back to sleep. Byeeeeee.

Agreed with the above....notably the parts in bold.

Why is it that Roman Catholicism is considered a distinct religion, whereas Sunni or Shi'ite Islam are just considered "sects"? What's the difference?

It's not, this article is just stupid. Roman Catholicism is a denomination. More than that, it's not even a full denomination; the article only counted Roman Catholicism, not all of Catholicism.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13569530']I agree with that post, I was sceptical to the exact numbers to begin with. To be honest, I don't think the exact numbers really matter a great deal. It's the political power that the religions wield which matter, and that comes from more than just numbers. I was responding to other posters' delusions that islam would somehow be better than modern christianity.

Agreed with the above....notably the parts in bold.

Ah, my bad. However, do understand Msgr. Formenti's motivation here- he does want people to take the numbers at face value, that's why he broke the news about Catholicism's decline from No. 1 (and not a Muslim cleric, none of whom may have ever realized this until now)- if it comes from him, it "sounds credible" since it's "not a biased source" ("hey, a Catholic broke news about something bad about Catholicism, it *must* be true"). However, taken within the context of the Vatican's resentment of declining Church attendance, it's abundantly clear that a "we're no longer No. 1" cry is meant to spur action, if only so Catholics can "restore their pride" (and maybe start going to Church. Maybe). I personally see no other motivation, especially considering the data Msgr. Formenti presents is so suspicious.

Islam has finally surpassed Catholicism in membership. I, for one, say good because the Christians have reigned far too long and have caused nothing but trouble from day one. I do wonder what bragging rights this gives Muslims.

Living in Italy, I can tell you that this is going to be just another cause for the italian catholic fundies to shout "help! we're being oppressed!"... 3 weeks beore the elections.

Islam is an entire religion. Roman Catholicism is one denomination of a religion. The subject line is meaningless. And yes, I know plenty of people have already said this. But in Kryten's words:

"Now, I realise that, technically speaking, that's only one flaw, but I thought that it was such a big one it was worth mentioning twice."

Or in this case, several hundred times...

There is, of course, one more point to make (which may already have been made, but see quote above):

Truth is not wikitruth. Catholicism was not 'true' because it had the higher number. Islam is not 'true' now that it has the higher number. The number of people adhering to a religion does not determine that religion's truth. At best, it determines its firepower; which some people sadly seem happy to assume is the same thing.

Catholocism vs Christianity, the battle to see who can convert more poor ignorant peasants in the third world. Who will win, YOU DECIDE.

I do not have to decide for it has already been written on who will win.

If these Christians are so fond of thinking that they are being persecuted, under threat etc, why don't we just do it for them? Let's make big Colosseums and feed Christians to the lions for entertainment!

:rolleyes:

Now. Tell me with a straight face that it is not. This is a comparison. Nothing more, nothing less.

*with a straight face*

It is not

I forgot to mention, I'm tired of Catholics always saying they are the only Christian demonination and saying they are a separate religion

Where are the love for us Protestants?

I forgot to mention, I'm tired of Catholics always saying they are the only Christian demonination and saying they are a separate religion

I believe the Catholics actually outnumber all other denominations of Christianity combined.... so taking the democratic view they have a case.

Where are the love for us Protestants?

Poor oppressed Protestants:rolleyes:

It's not, this article is just stupid. Roman Catholicism is a denomination. More than that, it's not even a full denomination; the article only counted Roman Catholicism, not all of Catholicism.

Did you misspeak? Because Roman Catholicism IS the only denomination of Catholicism...

Unless it is The Marotime Catholic Church, if that counts.

Did you misspeak? Because Roman Catholicism IS the only denomination of Catholicism...

No, it isn't. Roman Catholicism is just by far the largest.

I'm confused by the second half of this statement. The majority of Muslim majority countries are not major oil exporters, or are you saying the majority of Muslim majority countries that have decent economies are major oil exporters?

Yes, the majority of economically sucessful Muslim countries are major oil or gas producers, or are dependant on fossil fuels for other parts of their economy (for example, Qatar's two main sources of income are gas exports and steel working, which relies on gas powered power stations for its electicity). To give a statistic, the GNP of the entire of the Middle East (population about 130 million) excluding income from fossil fuels is less than that of Finland (population 5 million).

Unless it is The Marotime Catholic Church, if that counts.

I just misread that as 'Maritime Catholic Church'. Floating Pope anyone. :p

I don't know how to spell the church Ralph Nader goes to/

Then you have to compare that to how many fundamentalists Christians there are in government who can make law rather than fundamentalists Muslims who aren't in the government and can only make law through the barrel of a gun.

Assuming a ratio based calculation, since we don't have exact population statistics, compare the number of illicit extremist fundamentalist Christian groups and legal fundamentalist Christian power brokers to that their Muslim counterparts. If possible, run a separate calculation for total influence/power wielded between the two sub groups globally.

That would help create a more objective answer I imagine.

I have a theory that the less influence the power brokers will have, their illicit counterparts will expand to make up for the loss.
If anything, I'd say that fundamentalist muslims hold more influence in governments over the world than fundamentalist christians. I can think of two countries that are run by islamist governments, Saudi Arabia and Iran (Plus Afghanistan until recently). Then there's Hamas in control of Gaza. Plus Turkey is run by an islamist party, albeit a moderate one. Also, 'peaceful' islamist political parties seem to have more influence worldwide in opposition, such as the Muslim Brotherhood in the Arab world. I can't think of a single country run by a fundamentalist christian regime or even having a powerful fundamentalist christian opposition party. So muslim fundamentalists are not only more influential in government and opposition, but also in terrorism.

Did you misspeak? Because Roman Catholicism IS the only denomination of Catholicism...

Chalcedeans? Tridentine church?