NationStates Jolt Archive

Early election results are indicating that opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai may have not only won this election, but may not need a runoff. Not all the results are in, allegedly because the government is stalling so it can fix votes and whatnot, but Tsvangirai still may have defeated vote-rigging. I must say there is no way Mugabe will get a majority. He may win, but he won't get a majority. The runoff will defeat him.

Now, there are a few possibilities:
Mugabe legitimately wins and all is well.
Tsvangirai legitimately wins and all is well.
Mugabe cheats or appears to cheat and Opposition riots.
Tsvangirai wins and Mugabe suppresses it violently.

I have faith that Mugabe will step down if he is defeated. Until proven otherwise, I will keep to this belief.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080330/ap_on_re_af/zimbabwe_elections;_ylt=AuZvnejUuZG8.YDAK8msuOlvaA8F)

HARARE, Zimbabwe - Zimbabwe's main opposition party claimed an early lead in national elections but the government did not release results Sunday and sent riot police into the streets, raising fears of a violent dispute.

No results were officially announced by evening, 24 hours after the end of voting. Independent election monitors said riot police and other security forces were deployed in densely populated suburbs of the capital, Harare, a traditional base of opposition to President Robert Mugabe, 84. Discontent with Mugabe has grown nationwide as inflation has soared beyond 100,000 percent and the election was seen as the toughest challenge to his 28-year rule.

In past elections, officials have released results as they were tallied by district, often within hours of the close of voting.

"Clearly the delay is fueling speculation that something might be going on," said Noel Kututwa of the Zimbabwe Elections Support Network, an independent monitoring organization. He said tallies in some districts had been completed Saturday night.

Vote tallies were posted overnight on the doors of individual polling stations. Campaign workers for the opposition Movement for Democratic Change reported the results to party officials by cell-phone text message.

MDC officials said party head Morgan Tsvangirai was leading the presidential race with 67 percent of votes, based on returns from 35 percent of polling stations nationwide.

Party Secretary-General Tendai Biti said it had won nearly all parliamentary seats in Harare and Zimbabwe's second city, Bulawayo, also opposition strongholds. He said they had also taken areas where Mugabe has swept votes in the past — the districts of Mashonaland West and Masvingo and the northeastern town of Bindura, home to a feared ruling party youth brigade known for beating up opposition supporters.

The outcome of the race was impossible to predict without results from other rural areas, where three-quarters of Zimbabwe's population live and Mugabe garners most of his support.

Still, MDC supporters celebrated in the streets, giving each other the open-handed wave that is the opposition party's symbol. Mugabe's is a clenched fist.

In Harare's densely populated Mbare suburb, cars hooted their horns as opposition supporters danced and sang "Give Tsvangirai his chance!"

"The people's victory is on course," Biti said Saturday night. "We have absolutely no doubt that we are winning this election."

But Hapisson Mate, a 23-year-old first-time voter, was worried: "Why are we not getting the results? It's very clear to me Mugabe wants to steal this election."

Police had tried to persuade the opposition leaders not to announce results, arguing it was illegal for anyone other than the Electoral Commission to do so. But the opposition party's lawyers said the information already was public.

"I have no doubt that the large part if not all results are known. It is frustrating," Marwick Khumalo, head of the Pan-African Parliament observers, told South African Broadcasting Corp. TV.

Khumalo said the delay has the potential of "upsetting a very peaceful electoral process".

Zimbabwe's Electoral Commission chairman, Judge George Chiweshe, said the vote tally was taking time because Zimbabweans, for the first time, were voting for president, the two houses of Parliament and local councilors, so four ballots have to be counted for each voter instead of one.

"This has been a more complicated election. We will be releasing the results as soon as we can," he said.

Chiweshe was hustled, running, through the lobby by security agents, pursued by people shouting, "We want results!"

Election observers who visited the commission's headquarters early Sunday said it appeared to have only a skeleton staff and seemed in no rush.

"The regime is at a loss and it is taking its time deliberately," Biti charged, saying they were concerned by the delay.

If no presidential candidate wins 50 percent plus one vote, there will be a runoff.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said in the Mideast that: "We've made very clear our concerns about how this election might be conducted, given the very bad record of Mugabe concerning his people, the opposition and the region.

"We've tried to make a case ... that there needed to be free and fair elections in Zimbabwe as much as it was possible. It's difficult since really no international observation was allowed," Rice said.

Voting was generally peaceful, with Zimbabweans standing in lines for hours, but African observers questioned thousands of names on the official roll.

Mugabe dismissed rigging charges.

"I cannot sleep with a clear conscience if there is any cheating," he said Saturday after voting and promising to respect results. "If you lose an election and are rejected by the people, it is time to leave politics."

The independent Zimbabwe Election Support Network's monitors reported a heavy police presence at polling stations, ostensibly to help illiterate voters and allowed under a belated presidential decree that breaks an agreement signed with the opposition. The opposition said it was intimidation.

Biti and his party have said their agents and supporters were barred from polling stations in several districts, ballot boxes were stuffed, and election rolls were inflated with dead or fictitious people.

Oh, I'm willing to bet that Bob'll either have one of his asshole followers try to assassinate Tsvangirai or declare martial law to effectively render the election null and void a la Fred Marcos or Pervy Musharraf.

I have a feeling, though not based on knowledge of this guy's biography, that Tsvangirai won't prove much better.

You have faith...in a dictator?

Early election results are indicating that opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai may have not only won this election, but may not need a runoff. Not all the results are in, allegedly because the government is stalling so it can fix votes and whatnot, but Tsvangirai still may have defeated vote-rigging. I must say there is no way Mugabe will get a majority. He may win, but he won't get a majority. The runoff will defeat him.

Now, there are a few possibilities:
Mugabe legitimately wins and all is well.
Tsvangirai legitimately wins and all is well.
Mugabe cheats or appears to cheat and Opposition riots.
Tsvangirai wins and Mugabe suppresses it violently.

I have faith that Mugabe will step down if he is defeated. Until proven otherwise, I will keep to this belief.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080330/ap_on_re_af/zimbabwe_elections;_ylt=AuZvnejUuZG8.YDAK8msuOlvaA8F)

This

Morgan Tsvangirai probably won't be all that much better. But there we go.

There's no actual results as far as I can tell (from earlier reports I listened to and scanning the article, so I may be stepping in it), just the party saying they nailed it and any other result is foul play.

I have a feeling, though not based on knowledge of this guy's biography, that Tsvangirai won't prove much better.
He used to lead a couple of unions which got some general strikes going which stopped a tax hike by Robert Mugabe, which would have been used on the health service and war veterans' pensions. This guy is an activist by nature, and we don't need that in heads of state.

Early election results are indicating that opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai may have not only won this election, but may not need a runoff. ...
Now, there are a few possibilities:
Mugabe legitimately wins and all is well.
Tsvangirai legitimately wins and all is well.
Mugabe cheats or appears to cheat and Opposition riots.
Tsvangirai wins and Mugabe suppresses it violently.

I have faith that Mugabe will step down if he is defeated. Until proven otherwise, I will keep to this belief.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080330/ap_on_re_af/zimbabwe_elections;_ylt=AuZvnejUuZG8.YDAK8msuOlvaA8F)
The lead paragraph of the article leads me to believe there's a good chance of #3 happening...

HARARE, Zimbabwe - Zimbabwe's main opposition party claimed an early lead in national elections but the government did not release results Sunday and sent riot police into the streets, raising fears of a violent dispute.

But then again, it's just Zimbabwe. Let Jimmy Carter care about it.

You have faith...in a dictator?
Yes, because without faith, there is no chance of any change. Isolating people like him doesn't get anywhere. By showing we believe he can do it fairly, he'll be more inclined to do it fairly. If we just say "You're gonna steal it." then he may as well prove us right.

Morgan Tsvangirai probably won't be all that much better. But there we go.
Would you rather another term of Mugabe?

The lead paragraph of the article leads me to believe there's a good chance of #3 happening...

But then again, it's just Zimbabwe. Let Jimmy Carter care about it.
Used to be a food-exporter, you know. Not exactly an insignificant shithole until recently. And it really isn't insignificant. It's significant regionally at the least, maybe not on a world stage, but in that area, it has the capabilities.

The only thing I trust Mugabe to do is royally screw up Zimbabwe's economy and blame Britain, but if he does lose power, I will be very happy.

Would you rather another term of Mugabe?
We'll have to see. Probably not, but this guy doesn't exactly seem the kind of person I'd want running a country either.
Used to be a food-exporter, you know. Not exactly an insignificant shithole until recently. And it really isn't insignificant. It's significant regionally at the least, maybe not on a world stage, but in that area, it has the capabilities.
Nah, it's an insignificance. One step too far out of line and South Africa can beat the shit out of it. On the other hand, Mugabe seems to have a lot of mates in the ANC, which is a shame.

Mugabe is going to fix this one. He has learned his lessons from the Daley machine on how to rig elections. He just expanded it from the city/county scale and uses it for his entire country.

The only thing I trust Mugabe to do is royally screw up Zimbabwe's economy and blame Britain, but if he does lose power, I will be very happy.
It was Britain's fault.

It was Britain's fault.
No, it wasn't, at all. Him kicking out the prosperous white farmers in 2000 was not our fault.

No, it wasn't, at all. Him kicking out the prosperous white farmers in 2000 was not our fault.
So it's ok to let an elite group control all the resources? I'm doubtful those whiteys would share any of their wealth or even capitalistically redistribute it.

You guys colonized the country and raped it for your benefit. Then let it go and expect everything to be hunky-dory.

Admittedly, he did bungle the transition.

So it's ok to let an elite group control all the resources?
Ah, as opposed to now?
I'm doubtful those whiteys would share any of their wealth or even capitalistically redistribute it.
"Those whiteys" shared their wealth much more than ZANLA have. There certainly wasn't 85% unemployment and 100,000% inflation in Rhodesia.

Also, if I refered to the current government as "Those niggers", do you think I'd get away with it? No. So why do you reckon "Those whiteys" is ok?
You guys colonized the country and raped it for your benefit. Then let it go and expect everything to be hunky-dory.
Err, no, we colonised it and somewhat raped it for our benefit and the benefit of the indigenous types, then the Rhodesian government stole control and ran it in an apartheid manner, which was very bad from a human rights perspective, but was probably
Admittedly, he did bungle the transition.
No, there's "bungling the transition" and "fucking a perfectly excellent country over". Replacing anti-black apartheid with anti-white apartheid is not progress, ruining the economy in doing so is even less helpful.

No, it wasn't, at all. Him kicking out the prosperous white farmers in 2000 was not our fault.

Getting the prosperous white farmers there in the first place on the other hand... :p

Getting the prosperous white farmers there in the first place on the other hand... :p
Aye, sorry about creating wealth for everyone. Whoops!

Whites lives in Southern Africa for centuries. Zimbabwe kicking out an entire population that had been there for hundreds of years was far worse than anything done during apartheid.

You really got to see the hypocrisy of the world when it comes to racial issues.

South Africa was a prosperous nation that faced boycotts around the world for it's racial politics, yet Zimbabwe has the support of the same groups that boycotted South Africa for a much worse policy and a terrible economic climate. It's quite sad really.

so is it time to buy some Zimbabwe dollars now?

yet Zimbabwe has the support of the same groups that boycotted South Africa for a much worse policy and a terrible economic climate.

really? thats quite a bombshell to be dropping

Mugabe didn't give a shit about the white farmers until he literally saw a story on CNN that showed them contributing funds to the political campaigns of his opponents. That's when he went apeshit with the confiscations and started Zimbabwe on that downward spiral that everyone sees today.

Ah, as opposed to now?
I'm not saying it's good now. I'm saying you started it.

"Those whiteys" shared their wealth much more than ZANLA have. There certainly wasn't 85% unemployment and 100,000% inflation in Rhodesia.
But only the British and their descendants had any wealth.

Also, if I refered to the current government as "Those niggers", do you think I'd get away with it? No. So why do you reckon "Those whiteys" is ok?
There's a huge difference between whitey and ******. You could have used blacky for a better argument, which erally wouldn't have existed anyway.

Err, no, we colonised it and somewhat raped it for our benefit and the benefit of the indigenous types, then the Rhodesian government stole control and ran it in an apartheid manner, which was very bad from a human rights perspective, but was probably
Benefit the natives my ass. You poured it all into your industry and empire maintenance. Don't give me that.

No, there's "bungling the transition" and "fucking a perfectly excellent country over". Replacing anti-black apartheid with anti-white apartheid is not progress, ruining the economy in doing so is even less helpful.
I'm not justifying it. I'm saying that you started it all.

Aye, sorry about creating wealth for everyone. Whoops!
If everyone refers to people with a light skin tone or an English accent.

Whites lives in Southern Africa for centuries. Zimbabwe kicking out an entire population that had been there for hundreds of years was far worse than anything done during apartheid.

You really got to see the hypocrisy of the world when it comes to racial issues.

South Africa was a prosperous nation that faced boycotts around the world for it's racial politics, yet Zimbabwe has the support of the same groups that boycotted South Africa for a much worse policy and a terrible economic climate. It's quite sad really.
Centuries my ass. Even South Africa didn't receive colonists until the mid to late 1700s...barely centuries. Zimbabwe was the mid 1800s if that. The terrible economic climate is the result of trying to make the wealth of an elite group get redistributed to all properly.

I'm not saying it's good now. I'm saying you started it.

Centuries my ass. Even South Africa didn't receive colonists until the mid to late 1700s...barely centuries. Zimbabwe was the mid 1800s if that. The terrible economic climate is the result of trying to make the wealth of an elite group get redistributed to all properly.

First of all, do you even know how long a century is?

European colonists starting going to Africa in the early 1600's, you complete moron.

They were there longer than most white American and Canadians have been here. And they were forced out because of a racist policy, worse than what South Africa was condemned for.

I'm saying you started it.

do you realize how childish that sounds?

But only the British and their descendants had any wealth.

no, Imperial immigration never happened on large enough numbers (apart from the Americas where the natives where rather absent) for wealth to be significantly accumulated into British hands this is in line with Britain's policy of maintaining order through allowing local lords and princes to remain in a certain degree of power

see: colonial India, Ireland

There's a huge difference between whitey and ******. You could have used blacky for a better argument, which erally wouldn't have existed anyway.

whitey is still rather offensive no?

Benefit the natives my ass. You poured it all into your industry and empire maintenance. Don't give me that.

no as learned from the American rebellion Britain gained money from having a trading partner who didn't need British money to be spent on defense

hence why second age Imperialism was just for the sake of it

I'm not justifying it. I'm saying that you started it all.

ah so shall I point out that:

1) you don't have some kind of what if? machine so such argument is rather silly

2) you can't just blame "whitey" till the end of time (though I suppose I could then blame Italy for all my problems)

Centuries my ass. Even South Africa didn't receive colonists until the mid to late 1700s...barely centuries. Zimbabwe was the mid 1800s if that. The terrible economic climate is the result of trying to make the wealth of an elite group get redistributed to all properly.

sorry Hun even the Jews got to Ethiopia long before 1700

the idea that white people in Africa is a recent invention completely ignores Africa's history

Zimbabwe's problems stem from Mugabes redistribution of the successful white owned farms, to HIS PERSONAL CORRUPT FRIENDS and so called "war veterans" in his party, who didnt know how to run a farm.

There was never black majority rule in Zimbabwe, it just went from white minority, to black minority.

and i may be white but i'm irish so i can speak on the colonization topic all i want :p

I'd like it were Mugabe put against the nearest brick wall... but it probably ain't going to happen.

I do remember my dad saying that, back in the day, a lot of socialists believed in the guy, as he had views of the same sort but happened? The guy ended up as a foul dictator, whether or not Britain meddled in it, although admittedly we probably did.

The economic 'crisis' is largely overblown and made worse by foreign sanctions and economic sabotage.

The economic 'crisis' is largely overblown and made worse by foreign sanctions and economic sabotage.

The biggest economic sabotage being a clip of bullets unloaded into Zimbabwe's feet when Mugabe dispossessed the white farmers who knew what they were doing and gave the property to cronies who fucking did not.

The biggest economic sabotage being a clip of bullets unloaded into Zimbabwe's feet when Mugabe dispossessed the white farmers who knew what they were doing and gave the property to cronies who fucking did not.
Ahh the old 'white/capitalists know how to do things right!' argument.

Ahh the old 'white/capitalists know how to do things right!' argument.

No. It's the "Let's replace people who know what they're doing with cronies who don't." You know, like how the Bush Adminstration picked people to handle the Iraq invasion and the aftermath? Much as it's a habit for you, stop reading between the lines on a blank page.

This reminds me of that game Tropico when there is a point in time you can't buy enough votes and you end up out on your ass. Should be an interesting next couple of weeks.

The economic 'crisis' is largely overblown and made worse by foreign sanctions and economic sabotage.

Really? I suppose that a 40000000:1 currency exchange with the US is no big deal?

The Guardian is updating its page as events happen:


10.40am
Another 18 parliamentary seats have been declared by the commission, and again they are split equally between opposition and ruling parties. Significantly, the justice minister Patrick Chinamasa has lost his seat.

11.10am
Sowanele also has a 'mashup' (maps plus online updates) of allegations of election rigging. There are lots of incidents.

11.30am
The Zimbabwean exile radio station ZimNet Radio, broadcasting from Johannesburg, reports that results show Zanu-PF is "clearly out of the picture". It says Mugabe is simply trying to "buy time".

11.40am
My colleague Mark Tran has been on the phone to Andebrhan Giorgis, of the International Crisis Group thinktank. Giorgis said it was premature of the MDC to claim victory as the result would depend not just on the urban but the rural vote, where Mugabe's strength lies.

He was sceptical of rumours that Mugabe may have fled the country.

"I don't think he will go as the opposition has offered him an amnesty and it would be the lesser price to stay," said Giorgis, who is based in Nairobi, Kenya. He told Mark: "It is not outside the realm of possibility that he would accept defeat in a supreme act of statesmanship. An act of concession would redeem him and it would be the only way of assuring stability, avoid violence and begin reversing economic decline."

Giorgis believes that Mugabe will come under intense pressure from elements within Zanu-PF to step down if he loses as there is a sense of exasperation among his supporters. Many think that 28 years in power is long enough, especially considering the state of Zimbabwe after all this time.


Times are GMT, of course.

(link (http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/03/zimbabwe_election_aftermath_li.html))

No, it wasn't, at all. Him kicking out the prosperous white farmers in 2000 was not our fault.

QFT. As far as I know Zimbabwe was in a much better state when it gained independence (1980?) than it is now.

I just wonder what Mugabe will do if he is kicked out. He's a little to old to take up golf, and he won't be able to spend his looted millions on travel as nowhere really wants him

Ahh the old 'white/capitalists know how to do things right!' argument.

In this case, it also happens to be 100% true.

The economic 'crisis' is largely overblown and made worse by foreign sanctions and economic sabotage.

You are a complete idiot if you actually believe that.

And hopefully Mugabe does leave office but I doubt he will.

Standing at 19 seats apiece at time of writing (was 12 each earlier today), albeit with some fairly suspicious reporting (from the frequently updated Guardian page (http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/2008/03/zimbabwe_election_aftermath_li.html) noted above).

Although I can't help hoping the MDC win it, and government passes to them peacefully.

If I were an optimist (or high) I might hope for a rebirth of Rhodesia with more racial equality but as it stands I'll be happy to see Mugabe thrown out of office on his ass.

QFT. As far as I know Zimbabwe was in a much better state when it gained independence (1980?) than it is now.

I just wonder what Mugabe will do if he is kicked out. He's a little to old to take up golf, and he won't be able to spend his looted millions on travel as nowhere really wants him

The way he tanked Zimbabwe's economy, those looted millions will be barely enough to buy him a cup of coffee.

Latest results:

Parliamentary constituencies
MDC-Tsvangirai: 25
Zanu-PF: 26
Breakaway MDC faction: 1
Yet to declare: 158


http://img368.imageshack.us/img368/5629/44525597queue466apsg5.jpg

People queuing to vote. It's good to see they weren't discouraged by the possibility of vote-rigging.

I'm not saying it's good now. I'm saying you started it.
No, we didn't start it. There have been two generations between Ian Smith's declaration of independance and the current situation. Nothing has changed for the better.
But only the British and their descendants had any wealth.
Simply untrue.
There's a huge difference between whitey and ******. You could have used blacky for a better argument, which erally wouldn't have existed anyway.
Bullshit, squire, they're both racist terms. Does it really make any odds if I use "darky" or "******"? No. So does it really matter if you use "Whitey" or "Cracker"? No.
Benefit the natives my ass. You poured it all into your industry and empire maintenance. Don't give me that.
Err no.

In the 1960s and 1970s, Rhodesia experienced an economic boom in its steel industry, which benefitted both the white foremen, and the black workers in the industry. This, as well as significant GDP growth due to the Green Revolution of the 1960s and 1970s, benefitted every citizen of Rhodesia, whether black or white.
I'm not justifying it. I'm saying that you started it all.
That's not an argument in the slightest.
If everyone refers to people with a light skin tone or an English accent.
No, you're just wrong. The Rhodesian economy was fairly stable despite the various crises it had to endure, and had the best life expectancy and infant mortality rates in the whole of Africa. This a Good Thing for everyone concerned.

This reminds me of that game Tropico when there is a point in time you can't buy enough votes and you end up out on your ass. Should be an interesting next couple of weeks.
This is why you pick "Silver Spoon", along with "Elected for Family Values", "Diplomatic" and "Incorruptable" as advantages, and "Coward" and "Compulsive Gambler" as disadavtages. 20% extra tourism rating right off the bat, and with 12000 Pesos to start with, as well as Cool relations with Russia at worst, and a Diplomatic ministry, you can build 3 Tenements, which will hold all of your starting Tropicans at least, boosting your relations with the Communist faction massively - if you charge 2 Pesos rent and raise the wages to 6 Pesos for uneducated workers, then you get a massive popularity hit and loads more rent - wahey!

Latest results announced:


Parliamentary constituencies
MDC-Tsvangirai: 51
Zanu-PF: 53
Breakaway MDC faction: 5
Yet to declare: 101

Latest results announced:

Just based on that, the ruling party is done unless the breakaway party sides with the ruling party.

ELECTION RESULTS SO FAR
Parliamentary constituencies
MDC-Tsvangirai: 62
Zanu-PF: 64
Breakaway MDC faction: 5
Yet to declare: 79
Presidential results
None so far
Winner needs more than 50% to avoid run-off
Source: ZEC

Results according to ZESN:
Morgan Tsvangirai, MDC: 49%
Robert Mugabe, Zanu-PF: 42%
Simba Makoni, Independent: 8%

First of all, do you even know how long a century is?

European colonists starting going to Africa in the early 1600's, you complete moron.
Because we all know Africa is one country.

They were there longer than most white American and Canadians have been here. And they were forced out because of a racist policy, worse than what South Africa was condemned for.
It wasn't racist.

I'd like it were Mugabe put against the nearest brick wall... but it probably ain't going to happen.
You people...I swear...have no more right to life than he does for saying such a thing.

I do remember my dad saying that, back in the day, a lot of socialists believed in the guy, as he had views of the same sort but happened? The guy ended up as a foul dictator, whether or not Britain meddled in it, although admittedly we probably did.
He was doing well until whites started getting whiny about losing their power and he took their shit to shut them up.

This reminds me of that game Tropico when there is a point in time you can't buy enough votes and you end up out on your ass. Should be an interesting next couple of weeks.
GAME?!?! WHAT?!?! WHERE?!?!

In this case, it also happens to be 100% true.
Absolutely not. It has nothing to do with skin color or economic style. He just wanted it our of white hands and gave it to his buddies who didn't really care what happened to the land as long saa they could own it.

If I were an optimist (or high) I might hope for a rebirth of Rhodesia with more racial equality but as it stands I'll be happy to see Mugabe thrown out of office on his ass.
Because we really want a white-led racist government in Africa.


I shall be pleading nolo contendere on the arguments over Colonialism in Africa. I'm not interested in debates with brick walls who can't understand the truth and continue to delusionally believe that colonialism helps the colony. The whole point of a colony is to fatten up the master.

I would also like to state that I am confident Mugabe will step down peacefully within a week or two if he loses. The fact that there even are elections with a serious opponent should be enough to point towards that. I'd be surprised if he supresses the results. I sincerely believe he has his country's best interests in mind, even if they are wrong. (I'm not saying they are, although I do think they are.)

ELECTION RESULTS SO FAR
Parliamentary constituencies
MDC-Tsvangirai: 62
Zanu-PF: 64
Breakaway MDC faction: 5
Yet to declare: 79
Presidential results
None so far
Winner needs more than 50% to avoid run-off
Source: ZEC

Results according to ZESN:
Morgan Tsvangirai, MDC: 49%
Robert Mugabe, Zanu-PF: 42%
Simba Makoni, Independent: 8%

My source says 92 (w/ 5 breakaway) MDC and 90 ZANU-PF. Not that it matters much. And 49-42-9...

Negotiations as Robert Mugabe nears exit (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article3658410.ece)

Even though the opposition did not get 50% of the vote, it looks like Mugabe maybe out.

You have faith...in a dictator?

This is the same person who said Saddam is "not a dictator" and is a "great leader."

Go figure.

Negotiations as Robert Mugabe nears exit (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/africa/article3658410.ece)

Even though the opposition did not get 50% of the vote, it looks like Mugabe maybe out.
And who said that (or at least implied that) in the OP...?

And who said that (or at least implied that) in the OP...?

Did you read the article?

Freedom to Rhodesia!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7326968.stm



President Robert Mugabe's party has lost its majority in parliament, the Zimbabwe Election Commission says.

It says Mr Mugabe's Zanu-PF party has taken 94 of the 207 contested seats, while opposition parties have won 105. One seat has gone to an independent.

Although seven seats have yet to be declared, this means Zanu-PF cannot win an overall majority.

The opposition MDC says its leader won the presidential election but official results have not yet been released.

So interesting developments...

Because we really want a white-led racist government in Africa.
Please take note of how I said "more racial equality" in the same sentence. I don't by any means support apartheid but at least Rhodesia didn't have inflation out the ass.

It wasn't racist.

Let's see - Specifically targetted one racial group? Check. Violated said group's rights, and deliberately marginalized them? Check. Had no other valid purpose? Check.

Racist, and pretty clearly so.


You people...I swear...have no more right to life than he does for saying such a thing.

I would hope not. Everyone has the same right to life.


He was doing well until whites started getting whiny about losing their power and he took their shit to shut them up.

Er, no. The farmers had been quite content; being the backbone of the economy, reasonably wealthy, in a wealthy and prospeous nation. The worst of the racists emigrated long ago - the ones who remained were the ones who had little or no problem with black rule.

Mugabe managed to destroy the economy, turn the whites (previously a largely apolitical group) against him and show his true racist halfwitism all in one stupid stroke.

Absolutely not. It has nothing to do with skin color or economic style. He just wanted it our of white hands and gave it to his buddies who didn't really care what happened to the land as long saa they could own it.

Ah, do you even read what you write? First you say "It has nothing to do with skin color" then you say "He just wanted it our of white hands" in the very next sentence. You can't have it both ways!

As of 1437 hours Eastern Daylight Time;

Zimbabwe Opposition Declares Victory
Zimbabwe Opposition Declares Presidential Victory; Results Show Ruling Party Loses Parliament
By ANGUS SHAW Associated Press Writer
HARARE, Zimbabwe Apr 2, 2008

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=4571235

*shoots off fireworks*

Hey, just heard on BBC News 24 that Mugabe might step down in the next day, and that the ZANU-PF leadership is considering accepting his defeat before all of the results have come out.

*edits*

Cripes, it does indeed look like he's stepping down -

Mugabe's latest speech on the elections : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxnWl63Avo4

Hey, just heard on BBC 24 that Mugabe might step down in the next day, and that the ZANU-PF leadership is considering accepting his defeat before all of the results have come out.

*edits*

Cripes, it does indeed look like he's stepping down -

Mugabe's latest speech on the elections : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxnWl63Avo4

I hate you.:upyours:

Don't click that link. It's a rickroll.

Benefit the natives my ass. You poured it all into your industry and empire maintenance. Don't give me that.

Bullshit. Natives of the British colonies were substantially wealthier than those of other empires, and even those that were independent. Certainly there was racism and the like that is inexcusable, but your comment is blatantly untrue. If you're gonna be debating history, then learn something about it beforehand. Pick up the book Empire by Niall Ferguson.

Did you read the article?
Yes, it just backs up my statement more.

Please take note of how I said "more racial equality" in the same sentence. I don't by any means support apartheid but at least Rhodesia didn't have inflation out the ass.

Freedom to Rhodesia!
Did you just come out of a cave? Rhodesia has been gone for 28 years.

I hate you.:upyours:

Don't click that link. It's a rickroll.
Damn I almost clicked it.

Bullshit. Natives of the British colonies were substantially wealthier than those of other empires, and even those that were independent. Certainly there was racism and the like that is inexcusable, but your comment is blatantly untrue. If you're gonna be debating history, then learn something about it beforehand. Pick up the book Empire by Niall Ferguson.
Bullshit you. The explicit purpose OF a colony is to support the master nation at the expense of the colony. It is inherently impossible for the colony to benefit. Distort it as much as you want, it has no basis in fact. Equatorial Guinea has a record high GDP per capita, but most people are still poor. Same with Rhodesia. The elite were hooked up and the regular people were effectively poor.

Let's see - Specifically targetted one racial group? Check. Violated said group's rights, and deliberately marginalized them? Check. Had no other valid purpose? Check.

Racist, and pretty clearly so.
Not at all. It targetted the elite, who happened to be white.

I would hope not. Everyone has the same right to life.
Exactly. However, he basically said Mugabe should be shot against a wall.

Er, no. The farmers had been quite content; being the backbone of the economy, reasonably wealthy, in a wealthy and prospeous nation. The worst of the racists emigrated long ago - the ones who remained were the ones who had little or no problem with black rule.
I'm quite certain someone posted an article here about how they backed opponents of his. I never said they were racist.

Mugabe managed to destroy the economy, turn the whites (previously a largely apolitical group) against him and show his true racist halfwitism all in one stupid stroke.
He kept it running well until 2000ish when he started forcing the farmowners off the farms. Desmond Tutu recently said that if he had stepped down ten years ago, he would have had a remarkable legacy as a uniter and leader of a prosperous African nation.

Ah, do you even read what you write? First you say "It has nothing to do with skin color" then you say "He just wanted it our of white hands" in the very next sentence. You can't have it both ways!
Good call. Revise as thus: Out of elite hands (that happened to be white).

Bullshit you. The explicit purpose OF a colony is to support the master nation at the expense of the colony. It is inherently impossible for the colony to benefit. Distort it as much as you want, it has no basis in fact. Equatorial Guinea has a record high GDP per capita, but most people are still poor. Same with Rhodesia. The elite were hooked up and the regular people were effectively poor.
Simply incorrect. Rhodesia was a very rich country until its completely pointless and moronic Unilateral Declaration of Independance, at which point it became quite rich and then, in 1978 until 1980, pretty poor.

The tobacco exports of Rhodesia, even when sanctions were in place, made it one of the richest countries in Africa, regardless of one's ethnicity - the white minority did a lot better out of it economically, true (indeed with average whites earning $8000ish 1978 dollars, they were some of the wealthiest people in the world), but then they got totally shafted by conscription to fight in the Bush War, which affected all white men in the country from 18 until 45.
Not at all. It targetted the elite, who happened to be white.
Whites haven't been the elite in Zimbabwe for 27 years. Get a grip.
He kept it running well until 2000ish when he started forcing the farmowners off the farms.
Not really, no, the GDP of Zimbabwe has fallen from 1996 onwards solidly, and for most of the 1990s, the neoliberal reforms completely killed the economy by being effected far too quickly (see Eastern Europe for how this happened elsewhere, too).
Desmond Tutu recently said that if he had stepped down ten years ago, he would have had a remarkable legacy as a uniter and leader of a prosperous African nation.
Twenty years ago, yes. Ten, no. Getting involved in the débâcle in the DRC was a terrible idea.
Good call. Revise as thus: Out of elite hands (that happened to be white).
Aye, well in the other words of Desmond Tutu : What is black empowerment when it seems to benefit not the vast majority but an elite that tends to be recycled?

QFT. As far as I know Zimbabwe was in a much better state when it gained independence (1980?) than it is now.

I just wonder what Mugabe will do if he is kicked out. He's a little to old to take up golf, and he won't be able to spend his looted millions on travel as nowhere really wants him Malaysia. One of the only places in the world he is allowed to visit, thanks to a healthy friendship with former PM Mahathir Mohammed. He is often ambling around star hill galleries buying ultra-expensive luxury goods.

Not at all. It targetted the elite, who happened to be white.

That's hard to see. The white farmers had virtually no political power, some wealth, and very little social influence. That just doesn't say "elite" to me. In fact, these days it says "oppressed minority".


I'm quite certain someone posted an article here about how they backed opponents of his. I never said they were racist.

Sorry, I wasn't quite clear. I meant that the racist idiots had long since cleared out, and the current white farmers were not gberally racist (which would have been a valid reason for targetting them). I didn't mean to imply that you said they were.

However, I think you'll find that the whites really started opposing Mugabe after his "reforms" started making their lives hell. Which is an entirely reasonable reaction, I think.

He kept it running well until 2000ish when he started forcing the farmowners off the farms. Desmond Tutu recently said that if he had stepped down ten years ago, he would have had a remarkable legacy as a uniter and leader of a prosperous African nation.

Ten years ago, maybe. He'd made some mistakes at that point, but everyone does.


Good call. Revise as thus: Out of elite hands (that happened to be white).

I would like to know your definition of elite.

Early election results are indicating that opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai may have not only won this election, but may not need a runoff. Not all the results are in, allegedly because the government is stalling so it can fix votes and whatnot, but Tsvangirai still may have defeated vote-rigging. I must say there is no way Mugabe will get a majority. He may win, but he won't get a majority. The runoff will defeat him.

Now, there are a few possibilities:
Mugabe legitimately wins and all is well.
Tsvangirai legitimately wins and all is well.
Mugabe cheats or appears to cheat and Opposition riots.
Tsvangirai wins and Mugabe suppresses it violently.

I have faith that Mugabe will step down if he is defeated. Until proven otherwise, I will keep to this belief.

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080330/ap_on_re_af/zimbabwe_elections;_ylt=AuZvnejUuZG8.YDAK8msuOlvaA8F)

I don't think he is going to go quietly. :(

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23940431/

Mugabe's latest speech on the elections :
He's never going to give you up, he's never going to let you down...

Sel Appa, is there any dictator you won't defend?

Now, there are a few possibilities:
Mugabe legitimately wins and all is well.


lol. yeh, coz things will be all fine and dandy if he wins :/

That's hard to see. The white farmers had virtually no political power, some wealth, and very little social influence. That just doesn't say "elite" to me. In fact, these days it says "oppressed minority".
They had the majority of the wealth and used it to back political opponents of Mugabe.

Sorry, I wasn't quite clear. I meant that the racist idiots had long since cleared out, and the current white farmers were not gberally racist (which would have been a valid reason for targetting them). I didn't mean to imply that you said they were.
Doesn't matter. They were still the elite and backed opponents of his.

However, I think you'll find that the whites really started opposing Mugabe after his "reforms" started making their lives hell. Which is an entirely reasonable reaction, I think.
His early reforms are widely regarded as good. He is noted for non-racist policies, reconciliation, and helpnig the poor get educated. Hardly "reforms".

I would like to know your definition of elite.
Wealthy/Upper class/Economically powerful

Malaysia. One of the only places in the world he is allowed to visit, thanks to a healthy friendship with former PM Mahathir Mohammed. He is often ambling around star hill galleries buying ultra-expensive luxury goods.
Why would he leave if he steps down peacefully?

Sel Appa, is there any dictator you won't defend?
Someone has to do it. I have pondered becoming an attorney for the world's "dictators".

lol. yeh, coz things will be all fine and dandy if he wins :/
In terms of unrest, yes it would. In terms of the economy, probably not.

The economic 'crisis' is largely overblown and made worse by foreign sanctions and economic sabotage.

That isn't quite true. I have friends who left Zimbabwe with the last of the white farmers. The final kick out occured right before harvest. So the crops then proceeded to rot in the fields. Those the got the lands in redistribution didn't have a clue how to harvest it, nor were they even smart enough to know the ramifications of letting it rot, those that had been working for years on these farms (blacks) found themselves unemployed and the rest of the nation now finds itself hungry. Imagine that.

Mugabe is a complete idiot that has destroyed a nation using revenge as his guide. He was to eaten up with power hunger to admit that the whites in Zimbabwe did infact help the nation prosper and become what it was. His hate for whites it what has destroyed Zimbabwe.

They had the majority of the wealth and used it to back political opponents of Mugabe.

GEE!! I WONDER WHY?! You are a nut.

They had the majority of the wealth and used it to back political opponents of Mugabe... they were still the elite and backed opponents of his.
Most Zimbos didn't care about the politics of the situation until they were being Actually Repressed, A Lot. That they backed his opponents when they were getting their land stolen from them is unsurprising. Let's put you in a similar hypothetical situation.

The Bush Administration, which you don't particularly like anyway, but aren't that entirely fussed with on a daily basis, then decides that, actually, your house is now the property of Dick Cheney, without any recourse to the courts (this was changed in 1991 in Zimbabwe, before this time, people could appeal 'designation', and sometimes won).

Now, given the choice, do you not do something about this? Try to back the other side, hoping you'll get your house back, perhaps?

I sure as hell know I would.
His early reforms are widely regarded as good.
Which ones?
He is noted for non-racist policies, reconciliation, and helpnig the poor get educated. Hardly "reforms".
No, no he isn't. He was in the early-mid 1980s, and since then, that's all gone out of the window. There was an extremely short stint just after the fall of Zimbabwe-Rhodesia in which the very rapidly growing economy actually benefitted everyone, but the corruption was right there from the start - the Nigerian government gave Zimbabwe $15 Million (1982) to spend on education. Most of this actually went on spending towards the military and buying up the press.

Hmm, looks like it's bye bye Zimbabwe. This will not end well.

He's never going to give you up, he's never going to let you down...
On the other hand, apparently he is going to tell you lies, and hurt you...

That isn't quite true. I have friends who left Zimbabwe with the last of the white farmers. The final kick out occured right before harvest. So the crops then proceeded to rot in the fields. Those the got the lands in redistribution didn't have a clue how to harvest it, nor were they even smart enough to know the ramifications of letting it rot, those that had been working for years on these farms (blacks) found themselves unemployed and the rest of the nation now finds itself hungry. Imagine that.

Mugabe is a complete idiot that has destroyed a nation using revenge as his guide. He was to eaten up with power hunger to admit that the whites in Zimbabwe did infact help the nation prosper and become what it was. His hate for whites it what has destroyed Zimbabwe.
Incorrect. They weren't incompetent. They just didn't care and wanted the land.

GEE!! I WONDER WHY?! You are a nut.
That was before the country declined.

Most Zimbos didn't care about the politics of the situation until they were being Actually Repressed, A Lot. That they backed his opponents when they were getting their land stolen from them is unsurprising. Let's put you in a similar hypothetical situation.
They backed opponents BEFORE he started taking the land.

The Bush Administration, which you don't particularly like anyway, but aren't that entirely fussed with on a daily basis, then decides that, actually, your house is now the property of Dick Cheney, without any recourse to the courts (this was changed in 1991 in Zimbabwe, before this time, people could appeal 'designation', and sometimes won).

Now, given the choice, do you not do something about this? Try to back the other side, hoping you'll get your house back, perhaps?
You are misreading the facts. They backed opponents prior to the eminent domain.

Which ones?
Oh I don't know...reconciliation, working with whites, helping the illiterate, building clinics and hospitals, etc...

No, no he isn't. He was in the early-mid 1980s, and since then, that's all gone out of the window. There was an extremely short stint just after the fall of Zimbabwe-Rhodesia in which the very rapidly growing economy actually benefitted everyone, but the corruption was right there from the start - the Nigerian government gave Zimbabwe $15 Million (1982) to spend on education. Most of this actually went on spending towards the military and buying up the press.
That is utter bull. There was no more corruption than the average government until the past decade.

For the benefit of all those ignorant people in this thread...

RHODESIA WAS NOT APARTHEID, IT WAS WHITE MINORITY RULE, LEARN THE DIFFERENCE: APARTHEID WAS AN ECONOMIC, POLITICAL, AND SOCIAL ISSUE AND WMR WAS A POLITICAL ISSUE

I hope for Zimbabwe that Morgan wins, and I hope that he's better than Mugabe. He probably won't be though. :rolleyes:

I hope for Zimbabwe that Morgan wins, and I hope that he's better than Mugabe. He probably won't be though. :rolleyes:

Well, at least Morgan doesn't have syphilis, so his brain will be more reasonably functioning.

In fact here is a lesson for you kiddies; don't let someone with syphilis rule your country.

I hope for Zimbabwe that Morgan wins, and I hope that he's better than Mugabe. He probably won't be though. :rolleyes:
See this is why nothing gets fixed. No one has trust or faith. Trust the damn guy and maybe he'll actually do something. What makes you so suspicious and cynical of him? JESUS FUCKING CHRIST!

Well, at least Morgan doesn't have syphilis, so his brain will be more reasonably functioning.

In fact here is a lesson for you kiddies; don't let someone with syphilis rule your country.
He has syphilis?...Lenin was still a good leader.

Some of the language may indicate Mugabe has a mind to not release control even when he is defeated. However, so far the election has been clean and the AU seems pumped for another war to overthrow an unelected government.

For the benefit of all those ignorant people in this thread...
RHODESIA WAS NOT APARTHEID, IT WAS WHITE MINORITY RULE, LEARN THE DIFFERENCE: APARTHEID WAS AN ECONOMIC, POLITICAL, AND SOCIAL ISSUE AND WMR WAS A POLITICAL ISSUE

I hope for Zimbabwe that Morgan wins, and I hope that he's better than Mugabe. He probably won't be though. :rolleyes:

Nothing gets a post ignored faster than oversized letter (well, save for the use of the sniper or green bubble gun icons).

I hope for Zimbabwe that Morgan wins, and I hope that he's better than Mugabe. He probably won't be though. :rolleyes:
No, because he is black afterall.:rolleyes:

No, because he is black afterall.:rolleyes:

Straw man. This has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with nepotism and corruption.

:rolleyes:

I don't like the comments being made by the war vets. I had hoped pressure from his party would make him step down but some how i don't think thats going to happen.

Incorrect. They weren't incompetent. They just didn't care and wanted the land.

So you would explain away that those who seized the land were fully competent at farming they just chose to let the next years food supply rot in the fields on the grounds of apathy?

Ok if that isn't incompetence, then certainly it reeks of mental illness. :rolleyes:

Either way, it has helped destroy Zimbabwe.

Today Mugabe opponents are appealing for UN intervention.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23951840

See this is why nothing gets fixed. No one has trust or faith. Trust the damn guy and maybe he'll actually do something. What makes you so suspicious and cynical of him? JESUS FUCKING CHRIST!

I'm sure poor Morgan Tsvangirai is crying his eyes out right now, ready to completely abandon the idea of doing anything useful for his country because a random person on an internet forum thinks he might be worse than Mugabe. Is he like some kind of magic fairy who needs westerners to BELIEVE in him for continued existence?

Ok if that isn't incompetence, then certainly it reeks of mental illness. :rolleyes:



These are reds here. Mental illness coimes with the territory.

He has syphilis?...Lenin was still a good leader.



You're not doing your arguments any favours with that example.

He has syphilis?...Lenin was still a good leader.

And Hitler made the trains run on time...

I guess the thread is over, now that it's been Godwinned.

Nothing gets a post ignored faster than oversized letter (well, save for the use of the sniper or green bubble gun icons).
Good to know that you ignore what people say, I don't see what satisfaction you derive from participating in threads while not even reading to other posts apart from bothering the other posters. Especially when the post you "ignored" makes a completely valid point.

So you would explain away that those who seized the land were fully competent at farming they just chose to let the next years food supply rot in the fields on the grounds of apathy?

Ok if that isn't incompetence, then certainly it reeks of mental illness. :rolleyes:

Either way, it has helped destroy Zimbabwe.
Any idiot could at least do something. They didn't even harvest it. They just let it go because they just wanted their name on it.

I'm sure poor Morgan Tsvangirai is crying his eyes out right now, ready to completely abandon the idea of doing anything useful for his country because a random person on an internet forum thinks he might be worse than Mugabe. Is he like some kind of magic fairy who needs westerners to BELIEVE in him for continued existence?
At least two people made such a statement and I'm certain that it can be extrapolated onto the world reasonably, considering our isolation of countries such as Iran, Cuba, and Venezuela.

They backed opponents BEFORE he started taking the land... you are misreading the facts. They backed opponents prior to the eminent domain.
No, no they didn't. 70% of whites supported Zanu-PF up until the 1990s, when their land started to be taken, and the economy completely fell through due to the neoliberal reforms taken by the ruling authorities.

Only after the yet stricter land reforms in 2000 did the whites really start to back the MDC and other opposition parties, and even then, most whites who opposed the regime simply emigrated to South Africa or back to Europe after their land was taken.
Oh I don't know...
Yes, exactly. You don't know, do you?

The efforts at reconcilliation were extremely weak. The Ministry of Information said, in 1980, when the reform efforts were at their most lenient, that "all those Europeans who do not accept the new order can pack their bags". Two thirds of the white urban population had left by 1990.

That's not much help going towards reconcilliation, now, is it?

As to education, I'm sure you read my segment on the blatent corruption which ensued from the grant given by Nigeria towards education in Zimbabwe - it's not been much better since then.
That is utter bull. There was no more corruption than the average government until the past decade.
Anything to back that claim up with?

See this is why nothing gets fixed. No one has trust or faith. Trust the damn guy and maybe he'll actually do something. What makes you so suspicious and cynical of him? JESUS FUCKING CHRIST!
Aye, we've tried trusting him, and Zimbabwe has utterly collapsed in the last decade and a half because of it.
Lenin was still a good leader [when he had syphallis].
Nah, he wasn't. He completely failed to convince the politburo that kicking out Stalin would have been a good idea, and after seeing this failure, then failed to simply set the CHEKA on him. But there we go.

Nah, he wasn't. He completely failed to convince the politburo that kicking out Stalin would have been a good idea, and after seeing this failure, then failed to simply set the CHEKA on him. But there we go.

For some reason you just reminded me of AS Modern History. That was almost exactly what we were taught. :/

Why is it that when you click on the arrow on Questers quote of yootopia, it takes you to some random forum about 'stupid ass names'?

O_o

Why is it that when you click on the arrow on Questers quote of yootopia, it takes you to some random forum about 'stupid ass names'?
My reasons are my own :p

I must admit that I am growing concerned by the delays in the released votes and suspicious events taking place. My faith has been reduced proportionally.

I think Yootopia requisitioned the following information awhile ago:

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080406/ap_on_re_af/zimbabwe_mugabe_s_fate)

He was praised for his policies of racial reconciliation and economic growth, and for bringing education and health care to the masses.

Then a coalition of trade unionists — backed by some wealthy white commercial farmers and their workers — formed the Movement for Democratic Change which, along with civil rights groups, dealt Mugabe his first defeat at a 2000 referendum to entrench presidential powers.

Shocked, Mugabe responded by sending armed thugs, some veterans of the bush war for independence, into rural areas to seize white-owned farms and intimidate opposition supporters.