NationStates Jolt Archive

Stop the scientists before they destroy us all!

That's what a Hawaii man with a background in nuclear physics is asking a court to do.

Walter F. Wagner and his colleague Luis Sancho have filed a federal lawsuit seeking to stop work on the Large Hadron Collider, a gigantic atom smasher on the Franco-Swiss border that's set to start operations in May.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,342854,00.html

So he's trying to get the hard-on collider delayed until after a safety review is completely, which was supposed to be completed in January.

So, black wholes will kill us all? I figure it's win-win: we learn about the universe, or we're not around for long to appreciate how much we don't know or to fret about how much we screwed up.

Also, helicopter cancer (http://xkcd.com/401/).

What about a large hard on?

death by a black hole will be so quick that we won't realize it, won't it? So meh, things could be worse.

What about a large hard on?

Yes please! :D

A thread about ass and one about a hard-on. Maybe you should take care of business.

Edit: You changed the title! Not cool!

A thread about ass and one about a hard-on. Maybe you should take care of business.

Edit: You changed the title! Not cool!

Wasn't me...

Even some people with backgrounds in physics are crackpots ;)

Every single scenario postulated by those filing suit have been debunked. The short version: much higher energy collisions take place in space and on the surfaces of airless bodies such as the Moon quite often. If a mini black hole, or stragelets, or a supernova could be triggered at such energies it would have happened many times over in our very neighborhood already.

This will just waste time and money as with many frivolous suits based on junk science.

God bless frivolous lawsuits filed by semi-criminal conmen.

God bless frivolous lawsuits filed by semi-criminal conmen.

This is why I am in favor of 'loser pays' torte reforms. If someone brings up this kind of frivolous suit and it gets tossed out, the plantiff should have to pay the defendant's legal fees.

End of the world is nigh?

*starts looting*

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,342854,00.html

So he's trying to get the hard-on collider delayed until after a safety review is completely, which was supposed to be completed in January.

So, black wholes will kill us all? I figure it's win-win: we learn about the universe, or we're not around for long to appreciate how much we don't know or to fret about how much we screwed up.

Also, helicopter cancer (http://xkcd.com/401/).
Particle physics gives me a hadron.

...I feel sick just thinking about that joke, let alone actually making it...

But anyway, he's basing this on something theoretical models suggested could happen but previous trials on other supercolliders has shown to be false.

In other words, it's not going to happen and he's panicking over nothing.

End of the world is nigh?

*starts looting*

If you're not a minority, we prefer to call your actions "finding food".

If you're not a minority, we prefer to call your actions "finding food".

But if you are a minority, you're an evil looter and you ought to be locked up.

Particle physics gives me a hadron.

...I feel sick just thinking about that joke, let alone actually making it...

Remember what i said about "noble"?
*shakes head*

We've had two other rousing threads about this already, iirc.
I think there were even posts of the smaller-grade experiment already succeeding in some of the things people are afraid of going awry with this type of situation.

But if you are a minority, you're an evil looter and you ought to be locked up.

Yes. I thought Hurricane Katrina sorted this out.

Yes. I thought Hurricane Katrina sorted this out.

Nope. Pretty soon some guy will be yelling "Bush hates black people" as he gets sucked into the black hole. Which will be renamed for PC reasons the "Hole of African decent".

"We'll be saying a big hello to all intelligent lifeforms everywhere and to everyone else out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together guys"

Remember what i said about "noble"?
*shakes head*

I'm sorry...Ifreann made that joke the other day on GM and this thread made me think of it, and it wasn't said anywhere...

Gomen nasai! GOMEN NASAI! :(

If you're not a minority, we prefer to call your actions "finding food".

But if you are a minority, you're an evil looter and you ought to be locked up.

I guess I'm an evil looter then...an evil looter with a 60" Plasma TV...

Black holes in the relevant size range evaporate very, very quickly.

Black holes in the relevant size range evaporate very, very quickly.

We hope. The mechanism is called 'Hawking Radiation' and there has been no observation or other proof of it so far. Even Stephen Hawking has backed off slightly on whether or not it really happens.

We hope. The mechanism is called 'Hawking Radiation' and there has been no observation or other proof of it so far. Even Stephen Hawking has backed off slightly on whether or not it really happens.

Even if they didn't there's a minimum size a black hole can be, otherwise it doesn't have enough mass to maintain the necessary attraction to keep it's mass bound tightly enough to be a black hole.

Even if they didn't there's a minimum size a black hole can be, otherwise it doesn't have enough mass to maintain the necessary attraction to keep it's mass bound tightly enough to be a black hole.

That is correct to a point. It isn't a matter of the amount of mass, it's a function of the ratio of mass to radius.

Having said all this, I believe Hawking Radiation is real and micro black holes evaporate in fractions of a second. The indirect proof I point to for this is otherwise tiny black holes would accrete more and more matter, becoming larger and larger, and we would observe FAR more black holes than we have.

I'd like to see the judge say yes to the suit and demand CERN shut it down

Then CERN says "Ermmm the remit of a US court extends to the US... so we'll shut down the part of the collider thats in the US....oops hahah its not even close"

El-presidente Boris

"If the ultimate question and the ultimate answer are known, then there is a theory that the universe itself will cease to exist and be replaced by something even more inexplicable. There is another theory that says that this has already happened"

Cookie for where the quotes from :)

42



EDIT: And actually a US Court *could* shut it down. The US is a large investor and a partner in the project, and I believe there are treaties in place that honor these types of suits between EU members and the US.

That being said, the plaintiffs are loons and the suit is just a publicity stunt that will go nowhere.

death by a black hole will be so quick that we won't realize it, won't it? So meh, things could be worse.

What if things turn strangelet!


For that matter, I have a question relating to black holes and insta deaths: Would souls be able to escape the immense space-time warp? :p

What if things turn strangelet!



You wouldn't know that either. All of the scenarios would involve your instant destruction, but they are also the realm of sci-fi.

Sometimes I do my impression of the Large Hadron Collider and run around in circles smashing into people. So far, no black holes. A few chases, death threats and cursing; but no black holes. *nod*

That is correct to a point. It isn't a matter of the amount of mass, it's a function of the ratio of mass to radius.

Having said all this, I believe Hawking Radiation is real and micro black holes evaporate in fractions of a second. The indirect proof I point to for this is otherwise tiny black holes would accrete more and more matter, becoming larger and larger, and we would observe FAR more black holes than we have.

I've heard that black holes retain the physical area of the original thing that created them, so a micro black hole made out of an atom would only be the size of an atom...so apparently, even if it doesn't go away, its gravity will only extend out as far as an atom's would, so it wouldn't be too terrible if they stuck around.

Not exactly but close enough. The relevant things to keep in mind are the Schwarzchild Radius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarzschild_radius)
and Event Horizon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_horizon). They are closely linked but not the same thing.

Basically, if tiny black holes do not evaporate they would at first slowly accrete matter as they came into contact with subatomic particles. Eventually that growth would be faster, rising exponentially based on the availablity of matter to consume. Thus, there would eventually far more black holes than are observed unless they do indeed evaporate in a very short period of time.

I hope they *do* create micro black holes. The things we could learn from them would be priceless to cosmologists.

Sometimes I do my impression of the Large Hadron Collider and run around in circles smashing into people. So far, no black holes. A few chases, death threats and cursing; but no black holes. *nod*

That's because you're not doing it right - you have to have a large hadron while colliding with people. Although it is quite hard to run around with a hadron.

That's because you're not doing it right - you have to have a large hadron while colliding with people. Although it is quite hard to run around with a hadron.

There is something fundamentally wrong with this hypothesis, at least in mixed company. Some people might think it a bit quarky to do something like that.

Not exactly but close enough. The relevant things to keep in mind are the Schwarzchild Radius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarzschild_radius)
and Event Horizon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_horizon). They are closely linked but not the same thing.

Basically, if tiny black holes do not evaporate they would at first slowly accrete matter as they came into contact with subatomic particles. Eventually that growth would be faster, rising exponentially based on the availablity of matter to consume. Thus, there would eventually far more black holes than are observed unless they do indeed evaporate in a very short period of time.

I hope they *do* create micro black holes. The things we could learn from them would be priceless to cosmologists.

Or you could end up with gates to other worlds, like in Into the Looking Glass by John ringo. SF, but very well-researched SF (to the point that some of the physics stuff is incomprehensible to me, and I understand bits of theoretical physics.)

There is something fundamentally wrong with this hypothesis, at least in mixed company. Some people might think it a bit quarky to do something like that.

Augghhh! Physics puns!

Or you could end up with gates to other worlds, like in Into the Looking Glass by John ringo. SF, but very well-researched SF (to the point that some of the physics stuff is incomprehensible to me, and I understand bits of theoretical physics.)

Actually some of the current models suggest that there could be links between singularities of that sort, a specific subset of what's commonly referred to as a wormhole. Unfortunately, the same models also make it fairly certain that if one tried to traverse one of these, tidal and other forces would ensure that the only thing to emerge from the 'other side' would be subatomic particles ;)

Actually some of the current models suggest that there could be links between singularities of that sort, a specific subset of what's commonly referred to as a wormhole. Unfortunately, the same models also make it fairly certain that if one tried to traverse one of these, tidal and other forces would ensure that the only thing to emerge from the 'other side' would be subatomic particles ;)

I know. But it would still be cool to use those links for travel. Think of all the fuel and money it would save! I'm sure there's a way to do it, we just haven't figured it out yet.

I wonder if I could try to stop NASA and other space agencies exploring space. You know, just in case we piss off the aliens and they pwn us.

I wonder if I could try to stop NASA and other space agencies exploring space. You know, just in case we piss off the aliens and they pwn us.

I'm sure someone will try. Probably using 'Stargate' as evidence.

I wonder if I could try to stop NASA and other space agencies exploring space. You know, just in case we piss off the aliens and they pwn us.

Zerg rush, we're doing it wrong.

We should be rushing at mars, damn the consequences!

If this thing had been built in the Nevada Desert everyone would be saying it's a Combine conspiracy.

I'd like to see the judge say yes to the suit and demand CERN shut it down

Then CERN says "Ermmm the remit of a US court extends to the US... so we'll shut down the part of the collider thats in the US....oops hahah its not even close"

El-presidente Boris

"If the ultimate question and the ultimate answer are known, then there is a theory that the universe itself will cease to exist and be replaced by something even more inexplicable. There is another theory that says that this has already happened"

Cookie for where the quotes from :)

Douglas Adams quote ftw.

Douglas Adams quote ftw.

I guess you missed where I answered correctly with '42' ;)

If this thing had been built in the Nevada Desert everyone would be saying it's a Combine conspiracy.

I read this as "Concubine Conspiracy". Which would make more sense.

Zerg rush, we're doing it wrong.

We should be rushing at mars, damn the consequences!

Oh god! They're coming! We need more pylons!

What about a large hard on?
"I'm onto you and your little games, Tre-bek. I'll take ape-tit for 400."

Oh god! They're coming! We need more pylons!

it's SUPPLY DEPOTS!
pylons were for the protoss.. and they come along and obliterate us so we don't get infested.
get it right, or we're all doomed!

But supply depots will only last so long! We need firebats stat!

More seriously, I'm not too terribly worried about the world collapsing into a black hole. I'm more worried about the whole thing producing nothing and the public deciding that these things aren't worth funding anymore.

But supply depots will only last so long! We need firebats stat!

More seriously, I'm not too terribly worried about the world collapsing into a black hole. I'm more worried about the whole thing producing nothing and the public deciding that these things aren't worth funding anymore.

Producing nothing would actually not be as bad as you think, because then current models would be out the window and every physicist in the world would be scrambling to figure what is what. Of course, you are right in that it might affect public opinion. "Higgs Boson Discovered" sounds a lot better than "Mutil Billion Euro Experiment is a Bust".

Producing nothing would actually not be as bad as you think, because then current models would be out the window and every physicist in the world would be scrambling to figure what is what. Of course, you are right in that it might affect public opinion. "Higgs Boson Discovered" sounds a lot better than "Mutil Billion Euro Experiment is a Bust".

...and if they lie to us and tell us they found the elusive Higgs Boson, how would we know otherwise? I therefore expect it will be found. Gotta keep that money flowing...

...and if they lie to us and tell us they found the elusive Higgs Boson, how would we know otherwise? I therefore expect it will be found. Gotta keep that money flowing...

Actually you are wrong. There are way too many scientists involved, and at least a plurality of them have some sense of ethics. Also, it WOULD be exciting to find nothing to a scientist because that would open up the door to all sorts of interesting work.

EDIT: Also, it's not a matter of finding NOTHING. They will see something; the question is will that something support the current models or will it point to something entirely different. I'm betting they'll fine a pattern of quarks forming the number '42'.

I'm betting they'll fine a pattern of quarks forming the number '42'.

This is ok, as long as we never find out the question, too.

Also, zerg rush, kekekekekekekekeke.

Actually you are wrong. There are way too many scientists involved, and at least a plurality of them have some sense of ethics. Also, it WOULD be exciting to find nothing to a scientist because that would open up the door to all sorts of interesting work.

EDIT: Also, it's not a matter of finding NOTHING. They will see something; the question is will that something support the current models or will it point to something entirely different. I'm betting they'll fine a pattern of quarks forming the number '42'.

Take the Michelson-Morley experiment, for example - an attempt to measure the speed of the Earth through the luminiferous ether, which produced a great big zero. This was an extremely exciting result, precisely because it was so unexpected.

Take the Michelson-Morley experiment, for example - an attempt to measure the speed of the Earth through the luminiferous ether, which produced a great big zero. This was an extremely exciting result, precisely because it was so unexpected.

I understood very little of that post.

And by very little I mean almost none.

And by almost none I mean what?

Example of an experiment that found 'nothing', and generated a great deal of excitement.

"I'm onto you and your little games, Tre-bek. I'll take ape-tit for 400."

I loved Celebrity Jeopardy!

"Not a fan of the ladies are ya Tre-bek?"

Example of an experiment that found 'nothing', and generated a great deal of excitement.

DID get that much.

Well. what's your question, then?

Nevermind.

carrier fleet moving in, be warned humans you have 30 seconds to defeat the zerg rush or we OBLITERATE YOUR WORLD . . . .of course seeing as how we have carriers we could just kill the zerg but that wouldn't be as much fun. Adoun Toridas

I understood very little of that post.

And by very little I mean almost none.

And by almost none I mean what?

It was once believed that there was a medium called the 'aether' through which all matter was thought to move. When they experimented to prove it, they instead found there was none. Just about every scientist at the time was a believer until they found nothing.

If the universe does end, we are all gonna be very embarrassed.

Meh, it's about twice as likely as the world ending in 2012 and that has effectively no chance of happening.

carrier fleet moving in, be warned humans you have 30 seconds to defeat the zerg rush or we OBLITERATE YOUR WORLD . . . .of course seeing as how we have carriers we could just kill the zerg but that wouldn't be as much fun. Adoun Toridas

*Squashes all invaders with Demgori Space-Dreadnought.*

How is a Max Headroom Collider going to create black holes and how would they ever get big and strong enough to destroy the world?