NationStates Jolt Archive

AK-47s are seeing a rise in utilization across the US. And the expiration of the Semi-Auto Weapons ban has minimal effect because the rate was going up before it expired. Police are seizing more and more AKs than ever before. HAil to the best gun ever!

Link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080327/ap_on_re_us/ak47s)

KENNER, La. - The cake had been served and the children were jumping up and down in a big, inflatable castle when the birthday party turned to bedlam.

Clarence McGraw's jaw dropped as he saw the visitors coming, guns drawn. The screaming began.

Children ran everywhere in the courtyard of the low-income apartment complex; adults fell to the ground. Bullets flew. The killers wounded three youngsters, but for reasons police can't explain, it was 19-year-old McGraw they were after.

As McGraw lay in the center of the green square, the gunmen stood over him and fired again. He was shot 15 to 20 times in all.

The Sept. 15 killing was remarkable in that it took place in the most innocent of settings — the fifth birthday of twin boys. But it was unremarkable in that one of the guns brandished was an AK-47-type rifle — a powerful, rapid-fire weapon that has long been used in Third World conflicts but is increasingly being used in American street fights.

Figures from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, obtained by The Associated Press through public records requests, show a marked increase in the number of AK-type weapons traced and entered into the agency's computer database because they had been seized or connected to a crime.

The number of such tracings rose even while the federal assault weapons ban was in effect and has continued to climb since its expiration.

Since 1993, the year before the ban took affect, ATF has recorded a more than sevenfold increase in 7.62x39mm guns — which includes the original Russian-made AK-47 and a variety of copycats from around the world. The number of AK-type guns rose from 1,140 in 1993 to 8,547 last year.

Since 2005, the first full year after the ban's expiration, ATF has recorded an 11 percent increase in such tracings.

ATF says the increases in the first half of the 1990s are partly the result of wider usage of its weapons database by local law enforcement agencies. But after that point, the numbers reflect a real increase in tracings of AK-type guns, the agency acknowledged.

The numbers corroborate what police chiefs around the country have been saying: AKs and other so-called assault weapons are terrorizing their communities and endangering their officers.

The numbers are reflected in some of the most horrifying violence of the past year, including a deadly shooting rampage at a department store in Omaha, Neb.

They're reflected in the growing number of police forces equipping their officers with higher-powered guns to match the bad guys' firepower.

And they're reflected in a single 72-hour period in September that started with the shooting of four Miami-area officers and ended here, in a drab apartment complex just outside New Orleans.

___

On Thursday, Sept. 13, Jose Somohano, a 37-year-old officer with the Miami-Dade Police, was cut down during a traffic stop in suburban Miami by a man with an AK-type weapon. Three other officers — armed, like Somohano, with just handguns — were wounded, one of them suffering a bullet wound the size of a grapefruit in her leg.

By midnight, the gunman, Shawn LaBeet, had been shot to death by police after a huge manhunt.

Police have refused to say how many times Somohano was hit or how many shell casings were found.

The officer's wife, Elizabeth Somohano, had gone off to her job at an insurance company earlier that day, and just before noon, Jose's sister reached her at the office. "Have you heard?" she asked. Something was going on in the area Jose patrolled.

Elizabeth called his cell. She text-messaged him, over and over. She called her kids to see if they had heard from him. She checked the Internet to find out what was happening, and learned that officers had been shot and a gunman was on the loose.

A colleague of Jose's — one of his closest friends — called Elizabeth and told her to stay put. He showed up at her office, and when their eyes met, he broke into tears.

"He didn't make it," he told her. She screamed.

Later, she took some comfort in knowing that her husband had eaten lunch that day, which meant he must have seen the hot-pink note she had slipped into his lunch bag along with his chicken salad-on-pita sandwich: "I love you, macho man."

Days before the ambush, Miami Police Chief John Timoney agreed to let patrol officers carry assault rifles to help counter the use of such weapons by criminals. John Rivera, president of the Dade County Police Benevolent Association, pleaded for the same for officers in the Miami-Dade department, which protects more than 1.4 million people around the city.

"It's almost like we have water pistols," he said.

For years, only SWAT teams and the like carried AR-15s or similarly powerful weapons. But police forces nationwide have increased their firepower to match the criminals' arsenal — not only in urban areas such as Miami and Los Angeles, but in Waterloo, Iowa, Stillwater, Okla., Danbury, Conn., and Merced, Calif.

"We're in an arms race," said Police Chief Scott Knight of Chaska, Minn., chairman of the firearms committee of the International Association of Chiefs of Police.

___

On Friday, Sept. 14, along the Tigris River outside Baghdad, an alleged Shiite extremist linked to roadside bombings was taken into custody with his AK-47s and grenades. In Afghanistan, in villages south of Kabul, troops arrested three suspected Taliban militants and confiscated their weapons, including their AKs. And in Sydney, Australia, a former soldier pleaded guilty to gunning down a photographer with an AK in a contract killing.

With AK-47-type guns used in wars and insurrections all over the world, some 250,000 people are said to be killed by such weapons each year, and more than 75 million are believed to be in existence. In Iraq alone, congressional investigators estimate 110,000 AKs bought by the U.S. for security forces there cannot be accounted for.

The AK was designed by Mikhail Kalashnikov and went into production in 1947, with its name standing for Avtomat Kalashnikova and the year.

"Once the Wall fell, these guns were everywhere," said Carlos Baixauli, an agent with ATF.

Kalashnikov, who is now 88 and still lives in Russia, has said he is proud of his invention but saddened it's been used by terrorists. He said he wishes he had invented something like a lawnmower.

Bullets fired by AK-47s travel at a higher velocity than those from many other weapons, and can do grievous damage to the body. Often they have enough energy to pass clear through.

Knockoffs of the AK can be bought from legitimate gun dealers for as little as $300, and are also available on the street. Original Russian-made models are more expensive. Normal ammo clips hold 30 rounds, but higher-capacity ones are also available.

Most of the AKs on American streets are semiautomatic, meaning they fire as fast as the gunman can squeeze the trigger. Fully automatic ones, common on the battlefield, require just one pull of the trigger to release a burst of fire.

A 2004 study by the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence concluded the U.S. ban on AKs and other guns was successful, saying in the five years before its passage, assault weapons made up 4.82 percent of ATF crime gun traces, compared with 1.61 percent between 1995 and 2003.

Many politicians, police chiefs and gun control advocates point to the expiration of the assault weapons ban as a reason for the spread of the guns. But many others argue the law was so riddled with loopholes that it had little effect.

The National Rifle Association says the focus must be getting criminals off the streets, not more legislation.

"The basic reason why gun control laws fail is that they require the cooperation of a very unlikely source, and that is criminals," said NRA spokesman Andrew Arulanandam. "Each time you pass a gun control law, the only people that are going to be affected by that law, the only people that are going to follow that law are law-abiding Americans."

___

On Saturday, Sept. 15, at the Glenwood Apartments in Kenner, Trinioucka Martin rose early and cooked all morning for her twin boys' birthday party — meatballs, fried chicken, baked macaroni, sandwiches. She had already ordered a cake with the youngsters' picture on it, hired a DJ, and rented the inflatable castle and house.

McGraw woke up at his aunt's house across a highway from the apartment complex and had a hankering for something sweet. He wanted some cake.

At the party, after the crowd had dispersed and the officers arrived, McGraw lay dead on the ground near a sewer grate, his torso and lower body riddled with bullet wounds. Balloons still floated from ribbon; the "Happy Birthday" banner still hung.

No arrests have been made. McGraw was buried in a $450 grave against a chain-link fence in a crumbling New Orleans cemetery. The mound of dirt above his casket is littered with rocks and bone fragments and teeth. There was no money for a marker.

Thank God Heller looks like it will overturn the long injustice of the the 'collective right' abomination.

Sensationalist, effete, emotionally driven scare-trash like this will soon lose most of its teeth regarding the second amendment, and we can be spared another moral panic.

Ruskies corrupting our youth?

Sel Appa, I very quickly lose any respect I may have had for anyone who desires "moar AK-47s" on the streets, in the hands of criminals. We don't need another Brady Bill; that is apparent. What we need is more effective legislation, with fewer loopholes. As the article stated, we have entered a new arms race, on our streets, in our own backyards! :headbang:

The last thing we need is "moar AK-47s"!

Ruskies corrupting our youth?

They must be Communists!

Sel Appa, I very quickly lose any respect I may have had for anyone who desires "moar AK-47s" on the streets, in the hands of criminals. We don't need another Brady Bill; that is apparent. What we need is more effective legislation, with fewer loopholes. As the article stated, we have entered a new arms race, on our streets, in our own backyards! :headbang:

The last thing we need is "moar AK-47s"!

That's not true and a stupid thing to say.

None of these guns are new, and what is more, it doesn't matter what kind of gun a criminal or a policeman has if the criminal gets the drop on the cop and shoots him.

Arms race? I was under the impression that there would be a foot race.

Ak-47s are horrible weapons. Not because they aren't effective, just inaccurate. They are not assault rifles, they're light machineguns with a lot of recoil and poor sights. While I have to applaud Mikhail Kalashnikov for designing a durable and uncomplicated weapon with several double features like a dust-cover fire-selector, it just wasn't famous for its accuracy in combat.

Besides, I'd hardly call this weapon more dangerous than anything currently available as a hunting rifle. In fact, considering that hunting rifles tend to shoot much straighter from longer distances and are regularly equipped with scopes of varying power and can fire much more powerful cartriges than that of an AK-47 such as a 7.62x63mm which can penetrate body armor more easily than a 7.62x39mm and rip bigger holes in people, I'd say that any commercially available hunting rifle is more dangerous because its capacity to be used as a sniper rifle.

Nonsense, Indri. The AK-47, when well maintained, is one of the most accurate assault rifles in the world--for the first shot, that is. Yes, the recoil does greatly diminish the accuracy of three round bursts, and its accuracy goes out the window on full-auto, but single-shot, it is a capable weapon.

Besides, I'd hardly call this weapon more dangerous than anything currently available as a hunting rifle. In fact, considering that hunting rifles tend to shoot much straighter from longer distances and are regularly equipped with scopes of varying power and can fire much more powerful cartriges than that of an AK-47 such as a 7.62x63mm which can penetrate body armor more easily than a 7.62x39mm and rip bigger holes in people, I'd say that any commercially available hunting rifle is more dangerous because its capacity to be used as a sniper rifle.

That must be why people pick hunting rifles for weapons of criminal choice rather than full auto fire weapons like MAC-10s, Uzi's or just plain AK-47s.

Oh wait, they don't.

In medium to short ranges, a hunting rifle, bolt or semi-automatic is a terrible weapon to use in any sort of firefight.

It's not about the most stopping power. It's about being able to put a lot of bullets in a short time with enough stopping power to down somebody.

Ak-47s are horrible weapons. Not because they aren't effective, just inaccurate. They are not assault rifles, they're light machineguns with a lot of recoil and poor sights...

...it just wasn't famous for its accuracy in combat.

IIRC, one of it's nicknames is "Bullet Hose"

...who needs accuracy? :p

They must be Communists!

The Commies have invaded our Intertubing too!!

http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/downloadingcommunism.jpg

That must be why people pick hunting rifles for weapons of criminal choice rather than full auto fire weapons like MAC-10s, Uzi's or just plain AK-47s.

Oh wait, they don't.

In medium to short ranges, a hunting rifle, bolt or semi-automatic is a terrible weapon to use in any sort of firefight.

It's not about the most stopping power. It's about being able to put a lot of bullets in a short time with enough stopping power to down somebody.
They also prefer and available and concealable weapon like a semi-auto handgun.

AK-47s have lots of kick and when on full-auto may only even hit a target once for every ten rounds fired. It was first used in the SKS, a semi-auto and you don't encounter the accuracy issue with that weapon. The SKS is also legal in the United States while machineguns (automatic weapons) have effectively been banned since (I think) 1934.

A drive-by shooting is about the dumbest way to kill someone because targets may be missed entirely and they usually injure and kill several other people and cause serious property damage.

Also, considering that a gun is a very simple device and that improvised machineguns are not difficult to construct with easily acquired materials, I'm suprised they aren't used more often. And I don't think that it's a huge leap of faith to say that an automatic weapon used to injure or kill police was probably acquired illegally and it wouldn't matter if there were even more laws on the books banning such weapons. Criminals tend to get their guns the same way they do a lot of things, they break the fucking law.

IIRC, one of it's nicknames is "Bullet Hose"

...who needs accuracy? :p
It would be nice to have a weapon that would send bullets where I want them to go and not just blanket a target in suppression fire. What if I wanted to use it to end a hostage situation? Both the hostage and the terrorist would end up Swiss cheese.

They also prefer and available and concealable weapon like a semi-auto handgun.

Of which your hunting rifle is not. At least not on their persons.


AK-47s have lots of kick and when on full-auto may only even hit a target once for every ten rounds fired. It was first used in the SKS, a semi-auto and you don't encounter the accuracy issue with that weapon. The SKS is also legal in the United States while machineguns (automatic weapons) have effectively been banned since (I think) 1934.


The SKS can only hold 10 rounds. The AK, depending on clip type, anywhere from 30 to 100. And again, the AK has greater punch than any handgun short of the not very practical .50 weapons.

Legality is also not the issue here. We're talking practical weapons criminals use.


Also, considering that a gun is a very simple device and that improvised machineguns are not difficult to construct with easily acquired materials, I'm suprised they aren't used more often.


Because not everyone has the know how or tools.

Of which your hunting rifle is not. At least not on their persons.


Obviously you've never played Grand Theft Auto, I can hide an RPG, Assault Rifle , Sniper Rifle and Molotov Cocktails in my pockets

Obviously you've never played Grand Theft Auto, I can hide an RPG, Assault Rifle , Sniper Rifle and Molotov Cocktails in my pockets

And prostitutes give you health too. Can't forget that.

It would be nice to have a weapon that would send bullets where I want them to go and not just blanket a target in suppression fire. What if I wanted to use it to end a hostage situation? Both the hostage and the terrorist would end up Swiss cheese.

I think most of the partly justified propaganda against its accuracy stem from the fact that it is primarily used by untrained or at the very best badly trained militia equivalents instead of a properly trained armed forces.

Still, its derivatives are more than accurate enough, like the RK62 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RK62) or IMI Galil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMI_Galil) (derivative of an export version of RK62).

Of which your hunting rifle is not. At least not on their persons.
And neither is the AK-47. And why would a sniper rifle have to be concealable?

The SKS can only hold 10 rounds. The AK, depending on clip type, anywhere from 30 to 100. And again, the AK has greater punch than any handgun short of the not very practical .50 weapons.
First off, it's a mag, not a clip. There is a difference. Clips are used for reloading fixed mags on repeaters. Removeable mags are ammo storage and feeding devices.

Second, considering the size of the cartridge used by both weapons and the kick, the SKS would be a more accurate weapon and thus would be able to get more rounds to the target rather than spray a bunch all over a room. If that's the goal of the criminal then a more easily acquired shotgun may just as effective.

Legality is also not the issue here. We're talking practical weapons criminals use.
Legality does play a small role here in that while criminals will always be able to get almost any kind of weapon they'll probably go for the easier score.

Because not everyone has the know how or tools.
You don't need any special tools or knowhow. The simplest machinegun is really just the main spring firing rounds the mag spring feeds. You do need an extractor but that can be nothing more than a filed screw. The barrel is nothing more than a thick pipe and the trigger is just a stop for the bolt.

Hell, if you just want a single-shot shotgun you can get 2 pipes (1 that fits inside the other and fits a shell nicely), a cap, a cork, and a nail or tac. The cartidge made projectile weapons amazingly simple. A marvel of technology because of its simplicity and genius.

And prostitutes give you health too. Can't forget that.

Who needs a hospital when Herpes can heal you instead.

And neither is the AK-47. And why would a sniper rifle have to be concealable?

An Ak-47 can't be hidden on your person, but if you expect to use a firearm at ranges under 50 meters with many possible targets, it's a lot better than a bolt action or semi-auto rifle.


First off, it's a mag, not a clip. There is a difference. Clips are used for reloading fixed mags on repeaters. Removeable mags are ammo storage and feeding devices.

Minor quibble. You know what I'm talking about.


Second, considering the size of the cartridge used by both weapons and the kick, the SKS would be a more accurate weapon and thus would be able to get more rounds to the target rather than spray a bunch all over a room. If that's the goal of the criminal then a more easily acquired shotgun may just as effective.

The goal of a criminal, let's say bank robbery in this case, would be to present a credible threat, and firepower needed to bring down local security and police who will almost always outnumber said criminal. The SKS has the firepower, but not the clip size. The AK-47 has a bigger magazine, and does come with select fire remember? Assuming that the criminal knows anything about automatic weapons use, he will most definitely make use of the select fire option for single shots, and the AK has considerable accuracy with single shots.

Furthermore, suppressive fire is likely a concern if it becomes a siege situation. A shotgun can only go boom once, twice, or seven times, depending on type and certainly cannot have a rate of fire anywhere close to the AK.


Legality does play a small role here in that while criminals will always be able to get almost any kind of weapon they'll probably go for the easier score.


In which case, handguns and AKs have a lot better value for their money than the SKS. And unless I miss my guess, the SKS is also a lot more expensive.


You don't need any special tools or knowhow. The simplest machinegun is really just the main spring firing rounds the mag spring feeds. You do need an extractor but that can be nothing more than a filed screw. The barrel is nothing more than a thick pipe and the trigger is just a stop for the bolt.


And how many people know that, or are willing to go through with it, with questionable results, when a comparatively small price will see you through with a rugged, world famous for its durability, weapon?

And prostitutes give you health too. Can't forget that.

and money if you put the cheat in

Nonsense, Indri. The AK-47, when well maintained, is one of the most accurate assault rifles in the world--for the first shot, that is. Yes, the recoil does greatly diminish the accuracy of three round bursts, and its accuracy goes out the window on full-auto, but single-shot, it is a capable weapon.

No it isn't...

What the hell are you pretending to compare it to?

The AR15/m16 platform is more accurate, the m14 platform is more accurate, the FAL platform is more accurate, the g3/cetme platform is more accurate, the SIG platform is more accurate, the gas pison AR platform is more accurate...

It is one of the *least* accurate assault rifles in the world.

You don't have the vaguest idea what you're talking about.

As probably one of the few forum members here who actually OWNS an SKS (two in fact) and has fired multiple AK-47s here (more like Romanian built WASRS for the civilian market, I will thrown in my $0.02.

For starters, an SKS costs about $200 for a yugoslavian version, and about $300+ for a Russian variant. An AK-47, or a SAIGA, costs around $400+. The only difference between the two SKSs is essentially that the Russian SKS has a chrome-lined barrel and the Yugo does not; on the Yugo M59/66 there is an integrated grenade launcher on the barrel which means nothing since grenades have been regulated for over 70 years and a seperate setting for launching one. The M59 Yugo has the same setup but with no launcher. Again, no difference in the mechanical functions of how they work.

Both the SKS and the AK-47 work on the same principal but do it differently. The SKS has a handguard which features a piston. When a round is fired, gas is fed up into the handguard, hits the piston, which then hits a spring, which then hits the bolt, which is forced back and ejects the spent casing, causing the spring in the bolt barrier to force the bolt back and chamber another round. This is the same setup in the SVT-40 (a Tokarev design) with the only difference with being able to adjust how much gas hits the piston (that and the SVT-40 has a piston cup that is not in the handguard). The bolt on the SKS is open (not enclosed in the receiver) and the AK-47's is fully enclosed. IIRC (I don't own an AK-47 so I don't routinely break them down to clean), the AK's piston, spring (that the piston would hit in the SKS), and bolt are all connected as one. Obviously another difference is that the SKS has an internal magazine while the AK has a detchable one. I view it as Simonov improving Tokarev and then Kalashnikov improving Simonov.

Back to topic. On both of my SKSs (Yugo M59 and Russian), I am capable of getting 4 inch groups pretty easily for the first few full mags with standard Wolf ammunition (not very expensive stuff and not built for super-duper accuracy). After about 20 rounds in 15 minutes, the groups start opening up because of fouling in the barrel and heat. Regardless, those groups are well within a human head at 100 yards. It is the same story with the AK-47. I test-fired a friend of mine's AK-47 at 100 yards standing WITHOUT any kind of grip to remain California-compliant (he did not modify it to not be able to take out a magazine with a tool, or use a non-pistol grip grip) and I hit a basketball-sized metal plate.

Are AKs as accurate as an AR-15? No. It is simply because an AK has looser tolerances and the AR does not. Not to mention that the gas system in an AR is more refined and subject to less interference for awhile; the gas simply feeds back to the bolt with no piston-type setup, unless it's a specific type of AR like a 416. This is called direct impingement. Combined with the tigther tolerances, you are going to get tighter groups. There are multiple AR setups that can generate sub-moa (MOA = minute of arc = 1 inch groups = bullets hit within inch of eachother in a pattern) groups with the right ammunition (bullet size, weight, and powder charge). AKs not so much because of the tolerances.

Because of the trading of tighter tolerances, ARs will jam more easily and will need lubrication to keep running after a HIGHER number of rounds than an AK/Simonov setup. That is simply a quirk of the system because the gas and crud from firing a round are in the same place. Now I don't like the AR platform, but I respect it's capability.

Back to topic. The firepower of an SKS and AK-47 are very comparable; although the SKS cannot sustain the 30 rounds that an AK-47 can do quickly thanks to a large detachable magazine, it is very easy to reload the ten-round integrated magazine of an SKS with a fully-loaded 10-round stripper clip. It is really not a hassle at all. Just insert the clip into the notch, and push down. Pull the bolt back, and release. It only takes a few seconds, well enough to use in a lot of situations such as calling in a false robbery at a liquor store and shooting officers who respond to the call. (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/01/16/marine.shooting/index.html)

It would be nice to have a weapon that would send bullets where I want them to go and not just blanket a target in suppression fire. What if I wanted to use it to end a hostage situation? Both the hostage and the terrorist would end up Swiss cheese.

In that case, you'd probably want an M16/AR15.

.... The SKS can only hold 10 rounds. The AK, depending on clip type, anywhere from 30 to 100. And again, the AK has greater punch than any handgun short of the not very practical .50 weapons.

There are 30 round magazines for the SKS, and the SKS can sometimes be modified to take removable AK mags.

There are 30 round magazines for the SKS, and the SKS can sometimes be modified to take removable AK mags.

That so? Still, the SKS doesn't have the AK's full auto capability, which does have somewhat better suppressive fire capability. I suppose your average criminal could try bump firing with an SKS, if they wanted worse accuracy than an AK.

That so? Still, the SKS doesn't have the AK's full auto capability, which does have somewhat better suppressive fire capability. I suppose your average criminal could try bump firing with an SKS, if they wanted worse accuracy than an AK.

An AK available in the US doesn't have 'full auto capability' either.

An AK available in the US doesn't have 'full auto capability' either.

This assumes said AK is obtained legally.

Sel Appa, I very quickly lose any respect I may have had for anyone who desires "moar AK-47s" on the streets, in the hands of criminals. We don't need another Brady Bill; that is apparent. What we need is more effective legislation, with fewer loopholes. As the article stated, we have entered a new arms race, on our streets, in our own backyards! :headbang:

The last thing we need is "moar AK-47s"!

Looks like the Supreme Court disagrees with you. It won't be possible to write the legislation you're talking about.

Our Founding Fathers... guaranteed us certain protections. The freedom of speech; freedom of religion; the freedom to own and play stringed instruments of all kinds. Those Founding Fathers didn't place restrictions on these freedoms. They didn't say, "The right to play guitar shall not be violated, except when used to play Green Day's, 'Time of Your Life,' over and over again in the common area of your dorm!" *No!* Where will these restrictions end? A background check when you want to take up banjo? A five day waiting period to buy a Telecaster? An all-out ban on the Flying V or, dare I say, whammy bar? Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, it is up to *you* to defend our right to keep and bear guitars.

This assumes said AK is obtained legally.

Then we must assume that the weapon in question has been smuggled in somehow.

Then we must assume that the weapon in question has been smuggled in somehow.

Since the general noises from 2nd amendment proponents is that weapons used in crimes are overwhelmingly illegally acquired weapons, that would stand to reason.

A country that allowed people to have guns but not wan't those people to shoot each other in the first place is stupid. It's like giving children a huge pile of sweets and saying 'don't eat them'.

Since the general noises from 2nd amendment proponents is that weapons used in crimes are overwhelmingly illegally acquired weapons, that would stand to reason.

A good portion of weapons used in crimes or otherwise in the hands of people that would be prohibited from having weapons are stolen from people who are allowed to have guns.

A good portion of weapons used in crimes or otherwise in the hands of people that would be prohibited from having weapons are stolen from people who are allowed to have guns.

Hence the illegally acquired part. :p

A good portion of weapons used in crimes or otherwise in the hands of people that would be prohibited from having weapons are stolen from people who are allowed to have guns.

Yes, that's the part they like to gloss over. Although technically, they still are correct, they are illegally acquired, unless theft has been legalized in America.

Wow... i always thought the AK was a good gun

Criminals tend to get their guns the same way they do a lot of things, they break the fucking law.
Didn't they bust some Chinese a few months back for trying to import Stinger Knockoffs for gangs?

Didn't they bust some Chinese a few months back for trying to import Stinger Knockoffs for gangs?

What the hell would gangs want Stingers for? RPG's are understandible, but Stingers? Are the Crips riding around in Hinds now?

I love the ak-47, but I don't know if I could ever justify owning one unless I got caught up in some war. I think guns owned by civilians should be used for self defense, and the ak-47 is clearly not a self defense gun unless you expect your house to be attacked by 50 people at the same time.

And why would a sniper rifle have to be concealable?
Is that a serious question, or were you making a point?

"AK-47s for everyone!"


....no? No ones played C&C Generals? ;)

I love the ak-47, but I don't know if I could ever justify owning one unless I got caught up in some war. I think guns owned by civilians should be used for self defense, and the ak-47 is clearly not a self defense gun unless you expect your house to be attacked by 50 people at the same time.

Indeed. A rifle of any sort for home defense would not only be a stupid choice, it's a dangerous choice. It's quite possible to shoot right through your wall into the next door neighbor's house. A shotgun or handgun is a much better choice. More effective too.

At least here in the US, I have a good idea. If you are convicted of a violent crime, lets lock you up, instead of being given an slap on the wrist and giving you probation.

I am old enough to remember when the law enforcement community was talking about the "dangers" of the saturday night specials. Then they were screaming about the dangers of high capacity hand guns. Then they raised hell about the so called "assault weapons". We wil not even mention the fact that these crimes are committed by criminals. As an example, the LAPD did this big public spiel about the Barett 50 cal semi auto rifle. How it was the favored assault weapon of the criminals in the LA area. If you don't know, the Barett is about 30 pounds of weapon, and about 4 ft in length. Yeah, very easy to conceal under your windbreaker. But they forgot to mention that all the Barett 50's in the LA area are owned by the LAPD and the LA Sheriff!!!

And by definition, they don't care how many laws you pass. If you have been convicted of a felony in the US, you are not allowed to be in possession of a firearm ever!!! Of course, how many charges of possession of firearm by felon are sumarily dismissed by prosecutors every day?

If we enforced the laws we already have, we could really lower the crime rate, instead of comming up with more laws that the criminals will not obey.

About 10 years ago, Richmond VA had a program, that if you were convicted of any crime involving a gun, you were handed over to the US courts, and you were sentenced to a minimum of 5 years with no parole. The rate of gun related crimes dropped like a rock because the bad guys knew that if they got caught with a gun, they were going to do hard time. What a surprise, enforcing the laws on the book

Indeed. A rifle of any sort for home defense would not only be a stupid choice, it's a dangerous choice. It's quite possible to shoot right through your wall into the next door neighbor's house. A shotgun or handgun is a much better choice. More effective too.

There have been penetration tests done between the .223, .357, and 12 gauge buckshot.

.223 penetrates less.

Who needs a hospital when Herpes can heal you instead.

I think I'll sig that.

There have been penetration tests done between the .223, .357, and 12 guage buckshot.

.223 penetrates less.

Box O Truth?

Box O Truth?

Yup.

Yup.

One of the things they didn't do was simulate distance. I'd imagine that, if you do the same test at 50 meters, the .223 would penetrate more. Of course, I have no experience with the .223, so meh.

One of the things they didn't do was simulate distance. I'd imagine that, if you do the same test at 50 meters, the .223 would penetrate more. Of course, I have no experience with the .223, so meh.

It would penatrate more. The .357 is too heavy and too slow for penatration at that range, 12 gauge buckshot epends on what choke their using. If its turkey choke, its still spread out, but still lethal as hell.

What the hell would gangs want Stingers for? RPG's are understandible, but Stingers? Are the Crips riding around in Hinds now?

Police helicopters I imagine.

It would be nice to have a weapon that would send bullets where I want them to go and not just blanket a target in suppression fire. What if I wanted to use it to end a hostage situation? Both the hostage and the terrorist would end up Swiss cheese.
That is not one of the intended uses of the AK-47. It is a simple, yet effective weapon that can be mass produced easily. It's a perfect example of Soviet ideals: a gun that can be used to arm every citizen against a potential invasion. It's intended for the underdog or for uneven fights.

Wow... i always thought the AK was a good gun
It is.

This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvrG4T2K4sE) essentially shows the merits and intent of the AK-47.

Wow... i always thought the AK was a good gun
S'alright. Depends what you want to do with a gun, really.