NationStates Jolt Archive

Indonesia has criminalised Pornography

Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7313497.stm)

Indonesia's parliament has passed a bill criminalising those who access internet sites containing violent or pornographic material.

Anyone found guilty of the new offence could be jailed for up to three years, or have to pay a heavy fine.

The legislation allows the courts to accept electronic material as evidence in cases involving internet abuse.

One of those involved in drafting the bill said children, in particular, needed protection from online images.

It passed with wide majority support from all 10 factions in the chamber.

"I think we all agree there's no way we can save this nation by spreading pornography, violence and ethnic hostility", said the Information Minister, Mohammad Nuh.

Special software

Another MP said that current legislation failed properly to address pornography in the electronic media, and that access to it was far too easy.

The intention is to start implementing restrictions on sites containing banned material next month, using special software.

There was an outcry from hardline Muslim groups two years ago when Playboy magazine began publishing in Indonesia. The protest forced the magazine's editorial team to move their office to Bali.

A court later cleared the magazine's editor of distributing indecent pictures to the public and making money from them.

The BBC's Lucy Williamson in Jakarta says that stronger pornographic material continues to be widely available in Indonesia.

This has prompted a vigorous debate in recent years, exposing deep divisions in a country where 85% of the population follows Islam.

Also the image accompanied by the article made me lol

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44514000/jpg/_44514391_computer_bbc203b.jpg

Anyways, sucks to be in Indonesia...

Indonesia is more screwed up than many people realise. I think the language is remarkable: "save this country". It's basically admitting that the place is falling apart, that every island and community is developing in very different directions and that the central government only has Islam and moral conservatism left to try and define the nation.

That's a shame.

Indonesia has far too many beautiful women in it to not be producing porn.

Good! I hope the US starts following suit. Porn destroys people. Not just those who watch it, but those who act in it as well. How would you feel if you had to have 3 penises shoved in you just for a little bit of money? How would that make you feel?

Good! I hope the US starts following suit. Porn destroys people. Not just those who watch it, but those who act in it as well. How would you feel if you had to have 3 penises shoved in you just for a little bit of money? How would that make you feel?

Beats me, they choose to do it. All I know is that there's a lot of money there...

Good! I hope the US starts following suit. Porn destroys people. Not just those who watch it, but those who act in it as well. How would you feel if you had to have 3 penises shoved in you just for a little bit of money? How would that make you feel?Guys who's testosterone-induced urges would otherwise manifest in violence and rape instead are jerking off to porn. Porn prevents rape and saves lives. I would go for three penises if the money was right and ample precautions were taken. Folks doing it for less either enjoy it more or desperately need the money. Who are we to prevent people from making their own choices?

Bad image for the nation.

lolpr0ndanglyparts

Good! I hope the US starts following suit. Porn destroys people. Not just those who watch it, but those who act in it as well. How would you feel if you had to have 3 penises shoved in you just for a little bit of money? How would that make you feel?

I don't think we should start criticizing things like this.

How some posters pay their Law School tuition is their own business.

Good! I hope the US starts following suit. Porn destroys people. Not just those who watch it, but those who act in it as well. How would you feel if you had to have 3 penises shoved in you just for a little bit of money? How would that make you feel?

...rich?

Seriously, though, personal distaste for something is not a basis for outlawing it. I personally find shrimp revolting, but I don't think that's a reason to ban it. If other people want to stuff their faces with nasty, crunchy, squicky shrimp, that's their business. Blech.

Not such a surprise, sadly. Singapore already bans hardcore pornography. Funny enough, theaters showing softcore porn are far more popular there than in the U.S. Repression doesn't work!

Bad image for the nation.

Well, they just banned all the good images.

Don't they realize that if they outlaw porn, only porn will have outlaws? :confused:

I don't think we should start criticizing things like this.

How some posters pay their Law School tuition is their own business.

I can show you some previous porn stars who left it because of what went on in there. Evidently, you think you are going into some sort of not so bad environment. Then, your first film breaks everything in you that makes you a person. They harass and abuse you. Make you feel worthless. Most women after their first film become very depressed, and some are very suicidal. Not only that, BUT also most who go in the porn industry for college money, usually never finish their degree, because they are either dead, or too doped up to carry on normal in life.

Here is just one lady who was in the adult industry. http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=24308642

You can find the links to many other former adult stars their, that have left because of the abuse of the adult industry.

http://jcsgirls.com/ there is a link that reaches out to adult stars still in the business. There is obviously something wrong if many of the people go from bright and full of potential and then off themselves. There is something wrong if people are leaving constantly, because of the pain and abuse the find in there. There is something wrong if it causes people to go from loose and low standards to go to a Christian with no second thoughts.

So next time you try to enjoy yourself to a porno, think about what people actually have to go through mentally when they do that.

Oh, the humanity! I oppose this stomping on internet rights. Where will it end?!?!?!?

Am I the only one who thinks the headline of the BBC article is patently misleading?

Indonesia acts on internet porn

...criminalising those who access internet sites containing violent or pornographic material.

I don't think we should start criticizing things like this.

How some posters pay their Law School tuition is their own business.

......

WHO TOLD YOU???

Guys who's testosterone-induced urges would otherwise manifest in violence and rape instead are jerking off to porn. Porn prevents rape and saves lives. I would go for three penises if the money was right and ample precautions were taken. Folks doing it for less either enjoy it more or desperately need the money. Who are we to prevent people from making their own choices?

I dunno how it would be better said then that!

:)
-Rafe

Guys who's testosterone-induced urges would otherwise manifest in violence and rape instead are jerking off to porn. Porn prevents rape and saves lives. I would go for three penises if the money was right and ample precautions were taken. Folks doing it for less either enjoy it more or desperately need the money. Who are we to prevent people from making their own choices?

That is such a cop out! Are you saying that people who use video games do so as a means at to not go out and murder innocents? If porn "solves" that problem, then why don't doctors prescribe it for those with violent fantasies and such? Furthermore, people get caught up in the fantasy of pornography, and it will more likely empower them to do violent acts of sexual ends. Imagine it like this. You are a kid who thinks you can fly. Your parents see this in you, and tell you to watch movies about superman, because they believe it will prevent you from actually doing the act of jumping off the roof with a cape. They figure it is something entertaining, and will keep you inside and take your mind off the previous act. Little do they know, after the movie ends you will go outside and be more determined to act on your urges, because you are caught up in the fantasy even more.

I wish my effing posts would show up.:(

Guys who's testosterone-induced urges would otherwise manifest in violence and rape instead are jerking off to porn. Porn prevents rape and saves lives. *snip* Who are we to prevent people from making their own choices?

Yes, that's fantastic analysis.

"Hey ladies, you won't be raped anymore because, technically, we're paying you for it now".

Great reason for porn.

Banning porn is stupid because it simply doesn't work, the money could be far better spent on innumerable things but the idea that porn is good to stop men raping is a little ridiculous. It may well decrease rape among certain age groups, all up for debate in itself, but it doesn't validate the thousands upon thousands of lives ruined by the sex industry.

We simply don't live in an ideal world where it's actually a choice for most people.

I suggest that Indonesia get to work on repealing this law. The last thing they want is for this law to be on the books once the Church of Scientology is no more, and Anonymous is looking for another target.

I suggest that Indonesia get to work on repealing this law. The last thing they want is for this law to be on the books once the Church of Scientology is no more, and Anonymous is looking for another target.

Net neutrality is what they'd be after first more likely.

By the Chans! What blasphemy is this?

To Jakarta, my friends. For epic lulz!

Yes, that's fantastic analysis.

"Hey ladies, you won't be raped anymore because, technically, we're paying you for it now".

Great reason for porn.

Banning porn is stupid because it simply doesn't work, the money could be far better spent on innumerable things but the idea that porn is good to stop men raping is a little ridiculous. It may well decrease rape among certain age groups, all up for debate in itself, but it doesn't validate the thousands upon thousands of lives ruined by the sex industry.

We simply don't live in an ideal world where it's actually a choice for most people.That's a ridiculous assertion. Nobody in the US is having to make a choice between starving and doing porn. Maybe you're talking about the stuff filmed in like Russia or something?

I sense a great disturbance in the internet, as if millions of perverts cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.

That's a ridiculous assertion. Nobody in the US is having to make a choice between starving and doing porn. Maybe you're talking about the stuff filmed in like Russia or something?

I once had to make a choice between starvation and fluffing.

Worst part is, the very next day, Arby's brought back their Five for Frive promotion.

And then I found out you're allowed to fluff with your hands.

Porn Debate - OOC

A little hint to save you some effort, all post in NSG are OOC.

Guys who's testosterone-induced urges would otherwise manifest in violence and rape instead are jerking off to porn. Porn prevents rape and saves lives.

Urrrrrrr. Really?

You could also argue that it makes sexual violence and rape more likely as these people are able to feed their maladapted desire and intensify them.



Or you could argue that those people who are screwed up enough to rape, are going to rape (I mean, will have the intention to rape) - and whether they have regular access to pornography, violent or otherwise, or do not have regular access, isn't going to change that.

Am I the only one who thinks the headline of the BBC article is patently misleading?

Indonesia acts on internet porn

...criminalising those who access internet sites containing violent or pornographic material.

Well said.

Indonesia has criminalised Pornography

Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7313497.stm)



Also the image accompanied by the article made me lol

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44514000/jpg/_44514391_computer_bbc203b.jpg

Anyways, sucks to be in Indonesia...

Would it be such a bad thing if pornography were to be criminalised?

It's not exactly a good thing in itself.

Although for the sake of civil rights, in Western countries it would never be criminalised.

I can show you some previous porn stars who left it because of what went on in there. Evidently, you think you are going into some sort of not so bad environment. Then, your first film breaks everything in you that makes you a person. They harass and abuse you. Make you feel worthless. Most women after their first film become very depressed, and some are very suicidal. Not only that, BUT also most who go in the porn industry for college money, usually never finish their degree, because they are either dead, or too doped up to carry on normal in life.

Here is just one lady who was in the adult industry. http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=24308642

You can find the links to many other former adult stars their, that have left because of the abuse of the adult industry.

http://jcsgirls.com/ there is a link that reaches out to adult stars still in the business. There is obviously something wrong if many of the people go from bright and full of potential and then off themselves. There is something wrong if people are leaving constantly, because of the pain and abuse the find in there.

So next time you try to enjoy yourself to a porno, think about what people actually have to go through mentally when they do that.

EXCELLENT POST.

That is such a cop out! Are you saying that people who use video games do so as a means at to not go out and murder innocents? If porn "solves" that problem, then why don't doctors prescribe it for those with violent fantasies and such? Furthermore, people get caught up in the fantasy of pornography, and it will more likely empower them to do violent acts of sexual ends. Imagine it like this. You are a kid who thinks you can fly. Your parents see this in you, and tell you to watch movies about superman, because they believe it will prevent you from actually doing the act of jumping off the roof with a cape. They figure it is something entertaining, and will keep you inside and take your mind off the previous act. Little do they know, after the movie ends you will go outside and be more determined to act on your urges, because you are caught up in the fantasy even more.

I believe I read somewhere that legalizing porn lowers rape incidents. I do not view porn, but as I understand it, it releases sexual urges. As for the Superman comparison, may I say that most porn does not depict rape, and that flying is a not a biological urge; once the desire for loin-stimulation is satisfied, the body no-longer craves it. What you say above might hold water, were it not for the fact that people often engage in solitary pleasure while viewing the fescennine material, thus fulfilling their erotic wants; the world then becomes safe from stray nether-regions.

That is such a cop out! Are you saying that people who use video games do so as a means at to not go out and murder innocents? If porn "solves" that problem, then why don't doctors prescribe it for those with violent fantasies and such? Furthermore, people get caught up in the fantasy of pornography, and it will more likely empower them to do violent acts of sexual ends. Imagine it like this. You are a kid who thinks you can fly. Your parents see this in you, and tell you to watch movies about superman, because they believe it will prevent you from actually doing the act of jumping off the roof with a cape. They figure it is something entertaining, and will keep you inside and take your mind off the previous act. Little do they know, after the movie ends you will go outside and be more determined to act on your urges, because you are caught up in the fantasy even more.

Individual differences.

To be fair, for some it will go one way and for some it will go the other.

For some, indulgence in the fantasy will cause them to become more wrapped up in it and for some it will allow them an outlet and make them less likely to attempt to carry it out in real life.

A prominent issue though is that violent material of a sexual nature is available to people who may not ordinarily go looking for it. Pornography of a violent kind can open doors in the psyche which are perhaps best left shut.

A prominent issue though is that violent material of a sexual nature is available to people who may not ordinarily go looking for it. Pornography of a violent kind can open doors in the psyche which are perhaps best left shut.

I would imagine that most people who do not look for violent porn are disgusted by it.

I believe I read somewhere that legalizing porn lowers rape incidents. I do not view porn, but as I understand it, it releases sexual urges. As for the Superman comparison, may I say that most porn does not depict rape, and that flying is a not a biological urge; once the desire for loin-stimulation is satisfied, the body no-longer craves it. What you say above might hold water, were it not for the fact that people often engage in solitary pleasure while viewing the fescennine material, thus fulfilling their erotic wants; the world then becomes safe from stray nether-regions.

Hmmmm.

It's not exactly as if an ordinary person on the street who is really really horny would actually consider rape if they couldn't get off to pornographic material.

Safe from stray nether-regions?

It's not penises that rape. It's the problem in the brains of the attackers.

I would imagine that most people who do not look for violent porn are disgusted by it.

For the majority, yes. But especially to impressionable young adolescents who can easily be desensitised to things like this, it is atrocious that violent pornographic material is available.

For the majority, yes. But especially to impressionable young adolescents who can easily be desensitised to things like this, it is atrocious that violent pornographic material is available.

I suppose so. They would have to be pretty impressionable, though. I would know.

Hmmmm.

It's not exactly as if an ordinary person on the street who is really really horny would actually consider rape if they couldn't get off to pornographic material.

Most people can "get-off".

Safe from stray nether-regions?

It's not penises that rape. It's the problem in the brains of the attackers.

The gun-argument?

Most people can "get-off".



The gun-argument?

What do you mean by the gun argument?

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people."

That is such a cop out! Are you saying that people who use video games do so as a means at to not go out and murder innocents? If porn "solves" that problem, then why don't doctors prescribe it for those with violent fantasies and such? Furthermore, people get caught up in the fantasy of pornography, and it will more likely empower them to do violent acts of sexual ends. Imagine it like this. You are a kid who thinks you can fly. Your parents see this in you, and tell you to watch movies about superman, because they believe it will prevent you from actually doing the act of jumping off the roof with a cape. They figure it is something entertaining, and will keep you inside and take your mind off the previous act. Little do they know, after the movie ends you will go outside and be more determined to act on your urges, because you are caught up in the fantasy even more.

I believe I read somewhere that legalizing porn lowers rape incidents. I do not view porn, but as I understand it, it releases sexual urges. As for the Superman comparison, may I say that most porn does not depict rape, and that flying is a not a biological urge; once the desire for loin-stimulation is satisfied, the body no-longer craves it. What you say above might hold water, were it not for the fact that people often engage in solitary pleasure while viewing the fescennine material, thus fulfilling their erotic wants; the world then becomes safe from stray nether-regions.



I don't necessarily think either argument holds significantly more impact than the other. I think both effects are valid to say of pornography.

However we should be clear that it's not just anyone who would rape. I'm not saying only evil, devil-worshipping, hairy madmen rape, but it's fair to say that not just anyone would.

I think in the case of maladaptively sexually deviant individuals, for some pornography will sate their desire and thus they will not go elsewhere looking to satisfy it, but for others it will spur them on and deepen the fantasy, having the opposite effect.

The main parts of the two arguments that I disagree with are those that try to disprove the other. Both are valid.

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people."

Well yes, what I said before would seem to correspond to the gun argument, although the two instances are far too different for me to comfortably say: 'I'm going to apply the gun argument to this'.

people often engage in solitary pleasure while viewing the fescennine material, thus fulfilling their erotic wants; the world then becomes safe from stray nether-regions.

It's that phrase that seems to really bug me.

I don't know if you meant it this way but it really gives the impression that it's sheer horniness that causes rape, which I don't agree with.

I just find it slightly odd terminology, but don't this personally, I'm not having a go at your use of language, I'm just writing down my reaction to the phrase.

Would it be such a bad thing if pornography were to be criminalised?

It's not exactly a good thing in itself.

Although for the sake of civil rights, in Western countries it would never be criminalised.

What is inherently bad about porn?

this is on par with suddenly outlawing crying, what other natural human acts can be banned? being tall maybe?

porn is human (well more so its also been shown in chimps) and to ban something that is human proves just how well this law will last

For the majority, yes. But especially to impressionable young adolescents who can easily be desensitised to things like this, it is atrocious that violent pornographic material is available.

I'm sorry but violent pornography is nothing other than a type of porn, the whole argument that it desensitises kids is based on the assumption that:

1) you can be desensitized to such acts
2) that adolescents are not capable of having basic animal level rational thought (stupid as kids are, yes)
3) that Timmy who's into the whole domination thing is somehow a worse person than Tony who gets off to the missionary
4) violent porn features *gasp* consenting adults!

but it's fair to say that not just anyone would.

no, sadly everyone is capable of rape (unless our not human that is), human history is a bitch like that

I think in the case of maladaptively sexually deviant individuals, for some pornography will sate their desire and thus they will not go elsewhere looking to satisfy it,

your sounding rather prudish here, do you not have preferences?

but for others it will spur them on and deepen the fantasy, having the opposite effect.

no, otherwise the elderly would spend every night getting off to skat porn

edit: here sit and read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_health_effects_of_pornography

"sex crimes in every category, from rape to public indecency, sexual offenses from both ends of the criminal spectrum, significantly decreased in incidence. Most significantly, despite the wide increase in availability of pornography to children, not only was there a decrease in sex crimes with juveniles as victims but the number of juvenile offenders also decreased significantly. We hypothesized that the increase in pornography, without age restriction and in comics, if it had any detrimental effect, would most negatively influence younger individuals. Just the opposite occurred. The number of victims decreased particularly among the females younger than 13. In 1972, 8.3% of the victims were younger than 13. In 1995 the percentage of victims younger than 13 years of age dropped to 4.0%; a reduction of greater than 50%. In 1972, 33.3 % of the offenders were between 14-19 years of age; by 1995 that percentage had decreased to 9.6%.."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porn#Anti-pornography_movement

That is such a cop out! Are you saying that people who use video games do so as a means at to not go out and murder innocents? If porn "solves" that problem, then why don't doctors prescribe it for those with violent fantasies and such? Furthermore, people get caught up in the fantasy of pornography, and it will more likely empower them to do violent acts of sexual ends. Imagine it like this. You are a kid who thinks you can fly. Your parents see this in you, and tell you to watch movies about superman, because they believe it will prevent you from actually doing the act of jumping off the roof with a cape. They figure it is something entertaining, and will keep you inside and take your mind off the previous act. Little do they know, after the movie ends you will go outside and be more determined to act on your urges, because you are caught up in the fantasy even more.

Oh please, that doesn't hold water. Specifically, most kids that do the 'wanting to fly' bit are just the future nerds that enjoyed watch Superman: The Animated Series and later Justice League. They're upset that their shows have been cancelled and Cartoon Network isn't going forward with a new series.

Of course, that being personal experience as a camp counselor, I have encountered the few that actually want to fly. Some can be placated by me telling them to study hard to one day be jet pilots. Others I have to take up in a Cessna 175 (@ 250 lbs, I prefer the larger model to the 172). But I have yet to encounter the kid that wants to fly so badly that they'll convince themselves that they were born on the planet Krypton and can thus fly thanks to absorbing yellow solar energy. Even at their tender ages, they know the difference between Kryptonians and humans. One can fly, see through walls, here things miles away, and outrace bullets, while the other can resist...glowing green rocks.

Besides, kids that want to fly know that they can't turn themselves into Superman. Iron Man, on the other hand, is a different matter.

Good! I hope the US starts following suit. Porn destroys people. Not just those who watch it, but those who act in it as well. How would you feel if you had to have 3 penises shoved in you just for a little bit of money? How would that make you feel?

Full of penises? Hell if I can't find employment soon I might volunteer as long as the money's good.

no, sadly everyone is capable of rape (unless our not human that is), human history is a bitch like that

I am capable of rape in the sense that I have a penis which I could brandish as a weapon, but I would never. I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at.

Full of penises? Hell if I can't find employment soon I might volunteer as long as the money's good.

its so sad when we don't have any Queer folk to say what we are all thinking :(

Would it be such a bad thing if pornography were to be criminalised?

Um, yes? There is no reason to ban what consenting adults do or watch.

I am capable of rape in the sense that I have a penis which I could brandish as a weapon, but I would never. I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at.

odd how you seem to unique from all human populations in history then, tell me do you also enjoy Sean Paul's musical talent?

its so sad when we don't have any Queer folk to say what we are all thinking :(

Hell, I'm straight. But everyone who's hiring around here wants experiance I don't have or education I can't afford to get.

Pornographic or violent? That removes 4.95% of the remaining 95% of the internet after no porn.

odd how you seem to unique from all human populations in history then, tell me do you also enjoy Sean Paul's musical talent?

Never heard him. Is it that hard to believe that I find the idea of raping another person so morally repugnant that I would never do it?

What do you mean by the gun argument?
When penises are outlawed, only outlaws will have penises!

I am fully against porn and congratulate Indonesia for this legislation. Just want to let everyone know that I am not gay just following my christian morals.

When penises are outlawed, only outlaws will have penises!

LOL

Hell, I'm straight. But everyone who's hiring around here wants experiance I don't have or education I can't afford to get.

if only I had 3 penises :(

Never heard him. Is it that hard to believe that I find the idea of raping another person so morally repugnant that I would never do it?

yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

get over it

I am fully against porn and congratulate Indonesia for this legislation. Just want to let everyone know that I am not gay just following my christian morals.

you' know I subscribe to the idea that to hate something you have to have loved it first ;)

I am fully against porn and congratulate Indonesia for this legislation. Just want to let everyone know that I am not gay just following my christian morals.

Well I'm against all sex, I find it mortally reprehensible! Everyone should be castrated or sterilized! Surely, rape would go down then, and it would decrease the surplus population and violent crimes!

I believe I read somewhere that legalizing porn lowers rape incidents. I do not view porn, but as I understand it, it releases sexual urges. As for the Superman comparison, may I say that most porn does not depict rape, and that flying is a not a biological urge; once the desire for loin-stimulation is satisfied, the body no-longer craves it. What you say above might hold water, were it not for the fact that people often engage in solitary pleasure while viewing the fescennine material, thus fulfilling their erotic wants; the world then becomes safe from stray nether-regions.

LIAR!!

*runs*

yes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

get over it

I still don't believe that I would. Call it stubborn, but I just won't accept the statement that I could be forced into a situation where my only option was to rape another person.

When penises are outlawed, only outlaws will have penises!

Would that make all men outlaws that are gonna rape our wimmin folk?

this is on par with suddenly outlawing crying, what other natural human acts can be banned? being tall maybe?

porn is human (well more so its also been shown in chimps) and to ban something that is human proves just how well this law will last

Filming and watching pornography is something that even chimps do?

Tell me, how well do the chimps manage the financial side of the porn industry? And whereas they used to film it for the sake of art, do you think the chimps have got sucked up into the whole media-frenzy of it in the past few decades, especially with the emergence of Amateur Bonobo?

Sexual urges and expression are of course an innate part of being human and completely natural but I'm talking about filming, hiring for, selling, and watching pornography. And while, yes, pornography can be used as part of sexual expression I think it's very odd to say that it's natural and therefore good.

Your analogy to outlawing crying or being tall is completely irrelevant but worth a good laugh.

----------

I'm sorry but violent pornography is nothing other than a type of porn, the whole argument that it desensitises kids is based on the assumption that:

1) you can be desensitized to such acts
2) that adolescents are not capable of having basic animal level rational thought (stupid as kids are, yes)
3) that Timmy who's into the whole domination thing is somehow a worse person than Tony who gets off to the missionary
4) violent porn features *gasp* consenting adults!

You can't argue that simply because the adults within it are consenting makes anything okay for anyone to watch. I don't think young impressionable people should be exposed to violent or sadistic pornography even if the adults are consenting. It doesn't make it okay.

And I'm not saying in any way that anyone who's into bondage is not as good a person as someone who isn't, that's not what I mean or think at all, what I was referring to was the individuals who might actually act out fantasies like rape.

----------

no, sadly everyone is capable of rape (unless our not human that is), human history is a bitch like that

Well, yes if you're going to interpret it like that, and everyone is capable of murder, and everyone is capable of torture.

Just because you can doesn't mean you are at all likely to or would ever consider it.

While, in your definition everyone is capable of rape, the vast majority would never actually do anything of the sort, whereas in contrast there are some individuals who are messed up enough to actually carry out rape.

----------

your sounding rather prudish here, do you not have preferences?

Forgive me for not quite phrasing myself correctly. I wasn't using "maladaptively deviant behaviour" to refer to the act of watching or making pornography, I was using it to describe actively carrying out fantasies that hurt other people, such as rape due to acting out violent rape fantasies.

----------

no, otherwise the elderly would spend every night getting off to skat porn

I'm not talking about everyone, I'm talking about the minority who are into sadistic fantasies and who might actually act them out.

I am capable of rape in the sense that I have a penis which I could brandish as a weapon, but I would never. I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at.

odd how you seem to unique from all human populations in history then, tell me do you also enjoy Sean Paul's musical talent?

Why are you classing him as unique from all the rest of humanity just because he finds the thought of raping someone unthinkable?


And for the record, Dutty Rock is worth at least a few good listens and while it can get repetitive, has some catchy tunes.

Good! I hope the US starts following suit. Porn destroys people. Not just those who watch it, but those who act in it as well. How would you feel if you had to have 3 penises shoved in you just for a little bit of money? How would that make you feel?

Presumably, full.

And "a little bit of money" is a gross distortion of the monetary compensation afforded by careers in pornography. Almost as gross a distortion as is created by those 3 penises.

I am fully against porn and congratulate Indonesia for this legislation. Just want to let everyone know that I am not gay just following my christian morals.

So how come it's OK to deprive people of the opportunity to rise above the temptation of pornography by outlawing it so that they not only don't indulge, but can't, but then it's wrong to have the government take care of social services because that deprives people of the opportunity to be charitable?

And where did Christ advocate banning porn or explicit sexuality?

He advocates that "whoever can make himself a eunuch should do so," but he never says that those who can't should be forced to.

No, you're not following morals or Christianity. You're following prudish authoritarianism.

iyes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

get over it

The Milgram experiment doesn't address rape. To rape you not only have to be capable of cruelty at the behest of an authority figure, but you have to be aroused by human suffering.

Not everyone is.

There tend to be two kinds of rapists. Those who are apathetic towards human suffering, and aroused by conventional sex signals. And those who are aroused by sadism itself.

The former tend to be date rapists, or rapists of opportunity. The burglar who only broke in to steal the TV, but when he sees the terrified girl figures "why not?"

The latter are those who go out to rape just for the sake of raping.

But most people fall into neither set. Most men are aroused by signs of arousal, and when a woman starts complaining, crying, or protesting the guy gets turned off. Such men are literally incapable of rape. However, that's not to stop them from employing broom handles and such in sexual assault.

I still don't believe that I would. Call it stubborn, but I just won't accept the statement that I could be forced into a situation where my only option was to rape another person.

no your just ignoring things like facts and science presumably because of some white knight complex :)

Filming and watching pornography is something that even chimps do?


damn dirty apes! (http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/enviro/EnviroRepublish_1298389.htm)

Tell me, how well do the chimps manage the financial side of the porn industry? And whereas they used to film it for the sake of art, do you think the chimps have got sucked up into the whole media-frenzy of it?

...they whore themselves out to each other in exchange for things yes (sounds like some women amIright :p)

Sexual urges and expresion are of course an innate part of being human and completely natural but I'm talking about filming, hiring for, selling, and watching pornography.

so I wonder how drawn porn works out in your mind? :p

I think it's very odd to say that it's natural and therefore good.

yes who would think crazy things like natural human practices which are universal in our species could be for the best to keep!

Your analogy to outlawing crying or being tall is completely irrelevant but worth a good laugh.

to cry is human no?

You can't argue that simply because the adults within it are consenting makes anything okay for anyone to watch.

yes, I don't see how the western taboo of the topic sex dating from the dark ages should apply to modern life

I don't think young impressionable people should be exposed to violent or sadistic pornography even if the adults are consenting. It doesn't make it okay.

you can't seriously expect to just wrap kids in a bubble world, admittedly they should have this explained first but the concept that they will somehow go nuts from what some people do is absurd

what I was referring to was the individuals who might actually act out fantasies like

how about we talk about something like the game tag, do you think someone who really likes playing it will run away into a fantasy land ultimately going round giving people his germs for kicks?

whereas in contrast there are some individuals who are messed up enough to actually carry out rape.

and these individuals are not affected by porn

again: "sex crimes in every category, from rape to public indecency, sexual offenses from both ends of the criminal spectrum, significantly decreased in incidence. Most significantly, despite the wide increase in availability of pornography to children, not only was there a decrease in sex crimes with juveniles as victims but the number of juvenile offenders also decreased significantly. We hypothesized that the increase in pornography, without age restriction and in comics, if it had any detrimental effect, would most negatively influence younger individuals. Just the opposite occurred. The number of victims decreased particularly among the females younger than 13. In 1972, 8.3% of the victims were younger than 13. In 1995 the percentage of victims younger than 13 years of age dropped to 4.0%; a reduction of greater than 50%. In 1972, 33.3 % of the offenders were between 14-19 years of age; by 1995 that percentage had decreased to 9.6%.."

source (http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/BIB/DIAM/effects_pornography.htm)

odd how porn is helping but hey lets not let science get in your way

I was using it to describe actively carrying out fantasies that hurt other people, such as rape due to acting out violent rape fantasies.

above source is rather good

I'm talking about the minority who are into sadistic fantasies and who might actually act them out.

odd, you see if the majority don't do it and if anything its shown to decrease such acts crazy conclusions start popping up like its has nothing to do with violent rape

but hey you still have one last defense in that its icky ewww!

Why are you classing him as unique from all the rest of humanity just because he finds the thought of raping someone unthinkable?

no its the assumption that he would never rape, its only deluding himself

And for the record, Dutty Rock is worth at least a few good listens and while it can get repetitive, has some catchy tunes.

*gets cricket bat*

The Milgram experiment doesn't address rape. To rape you not only have to be capable of cruelty at the behest of an authority figure

it shows that everyone does bad things which is really as close as I'd bet the research has got what with pesky things like ethics

but you have to be aroused by human suffering.

ah, the old rape for sexual kicks thing

how is life in 70's psychiatry?

There tend to be two kinds of rapists. Those who are apathetic towards human suffering, and aroused by conventional sex signals. And those who are aroused by sadism itself.

I'd like a source for this if you please

But most people fall into neither set. Most men are aroused by signs of arousal, and when a woman starts complaining, crying, or protesting the guy gets turned off. Such men are literally incapable of rape. However, that's not to stop them from employing broom handles and such in sexual assault.

I'm sorry but I'm getting nothing but your musing from this argument

how do you think Japanese troops pulled off the Nanking massacre?

I am fully against porn and congratulate Indonesia for this legislation. Just want to let everyone know that I am not gay just following my christian morals.

Well I'm against all sex, I find it mortally reprehensible! Everyone should be castrated or sterilized! Surely, rape would go down then, and it would decrease the surplus population and violent crimes!

Very funny.

Just because he's against pornography doesn't mean he's against sex. They are two enormously different things and, to be honest, I feel sorry for anyone who finds the two similar or equivalents.

I for one applaud him for his stance on pornography.

no your just ignoring things like facts and science presumably because of some white knight complex :)

I think we're getting stuck on terminology here, such as what exactly we mean by capable. I still don't see why you keep using phrases like 'facts', 'science', 'human nature' to apparently prove Gen wrong when he says he is not going to rape anyone, reducing your 'facts', 'science', 'human nature' to meaningless words, WHY does 'facts', 'science', 'human nature' prove that Gen is wrong to say that he is disgusted by rape and would never carry it out. And don't use any bizarre cop-out thought experiments like "What if the earth was going to be destroyed by a talking comet and the only way you could save everyone in the world was to rape one person' because you obviously would.

I do find it odd you keep labouring this point that Gen is wrong, and how with such conviction you're telling him he doesn't feel what he's just said that he feels.

But I do accept your earlier point that technically everyone is capable of rape just like everyone is technically capable of murder or what have you.

So, what's the White Knight complex?

--------------




damn dirty apes! (http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/enviro/EnviroRepublish_1298389.htm)

Well of course they enjoy looking at pictures of attractive chimps. Obviously they would because it arouses them sexually. But just because something makes an animalistic desire in you feel good it doesn't necessarily mean that it's 'right'. If we all followed our animal instincts and only did what felt good for us in the short term then we'd all be out killing and raping all day and all social order would break down. Obviously the chimps enjoy pornographic images of other chimps as it arouses them and the same can be said for huamsn but you're still trying to use this to prove that it is therefore 'right'. Just because a human is sexually attracted to and aroused by another doesn't make it okay for them to rape them. Just because chimps do it doesn't make it okay and just because it satisfies primal urges doesn't make it okay!

I'm not against the 'urges of the flesh' and I think it's necessary for us to indulge in short-term pleasurable activities but you can't justify that anything by these principles is okay simply because it feels good at the time.

--------------


...they whore themselves out to each other in exchange for things yes (sounds like some women amIright :p)

Hmmmmm.

--------------


so I wonder how drawn porn works out in your mind? :p

That's neither here nor there. It adds nothing to the argument nor takes anything away from it.

--------------

yes who would think crazy things like natural human practices which are universal in our species could be for the best to keep!

Pornography is not a 'natural human practice' and it isn't universal in our species. It is NOT comparable to eating, drinking, crying, or being tall! And in your case of the chimps, how was it natural to them? Did they set up the camera themselves? Did they put up halogen lights and create a lovely play of shadows across the delicate form of the female chimp themselves? NO! You can't classify pornography as a natural practice!

--------------


how about we talk about thing like the game tag, do you think someone who really likes playing it will run away into a fantasy land ultimately going round giving people his germs for kicks?

You've taken the analogy too far. Helloooo reductio ad absurdum.

--------------


source (http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/BIB/DIAM/effects_pornography.htm)

odd, you see if the majority don't do it and if anything its shown to decrease such acts crazy conclusions start popping up like its has nothing to do with violent rape

These statistics, in their unrepresentative way, hold some water.

However you can find statistics and findings to sway it to your side of the argument and you can just as easily find results to sway to the other side of the argument, examples:

"extensive viewing of the type of pornographic material commonly sold at adult bookstores was positively correlated with...decreased satisfaction of participants with their sex lives and partners, and an increased self-reported willingness to commit rape or other forced sexual acts."

"if a person has relatively aggressive sexual inclinations resulting from various personal and/or cultural factors, some pornography exposure may activate and reinforce associated coercive tendencies and behaviors" - Malamuth Addison Koss

--------------


but hey you still have one last defense in that its icky ewww!

Very funny.

no its the assumption that he would never rape, its only deluding himself

You really are labouring this point.

We might as well be arguing.

"Would you lick a dog's anus for ten minutes?"

"I would never ever lick a dog's anus for ten minutes."

"Yes you would"

"No I would never lick a dog's anus for ten minutes."

"Well you would if I had a gun to your head."

I think you're trying to twist round the Milgram experiment to fit your argument too much. By the way you're going, you could use Milgram '61 to prove that anyone would do anything.

Including licking a dog's anus for ten minutes.

We're really getting nowhere with this particular point.


it shows that everyone does bad things which is really as close as I'd bet the research has got what with pesky things like ethics

Are you implying that they would have continued a further study to investigate forced rape if they had found a way to?

WHY does 'facts', 'science', 'human nature' prove that Gen is wrong to say that he is disgusted by rape and would never carry it out.

I'm not quite sure I need to give you an answer for this :confused:

And don't use any bizarre cop-out thought experiments like "What if the earth was going to be destroyed by a talking comet and the only way you could save everyone in the world was to rape one person' because you obviously would.

I have no use for such cop-outs

I do find it odd you keep labouring this point that Gen is wrong, and how with such conviction you're telling him he doesn't feel what he's just said that he feels.

because hes wrong to assume so and the disillusion that you would never commit such an act is one of the reasons people are so willing to just brandish a rapist as an evil being who isn't human (thus perpetuating the problem by not looking at why it happens)

But I do accept your earlier point that technically everyone is capable of rape just like everyone is technically capable of murder or what have you.

"technically" doesn't even come into play people are able to do morally good and bad things and the evidence is stacked up on this

So, what's the White Knight complex?

the belief that your some knight in shining armour

just because something makes an animalistic desire in you feel good it doesn't necessarily mean that it's 'right'.

right is a big word, healthy is better:

it is healthy for you to do what comes naturally

If we all followed our animal instincts and only did what felt good for us in the short term then we'd all be out killing and raping all day and all social order would break down.

the entire history of mankind and the homo genus (*giggles*) prove otherwise

you see we humans are social animals who have the instincts to care and generally be nice to one another course if you have these urges you describe I suggest you go seek counseling :)

Just because a human is sexually attracted to and aroused by another doesn't make it okay for them to rape them.

awww your linking rape with sexual attraction, "why oh why can't those rapists just find prostitutes/foreign brides!" you must stay up at night wondering

That's neither here nor there. It adds nothing to the argument nor takes anything away from it.

no common I want to hear your opinion on this

Pornography is not a 'natural human practice' and it isn't universal in our species.

so tell me what your explanation of how every civilization this planet (even isolated communities has seen has involved such fun?)

then again I noticed above that you don't like all my talk about science so how about we look at the images in a Bible (repression doesn't seem to work does it)

read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_erotic_depictions

It is NOT comparable to eating, drinking, crying, or being tall! And in your case of the chimps, how was it natural to them? Did they set up the camera themselves? Did they put up halogen lights and create a lovely play of shadows across the delicate form of the female chimp themselves? NO!

tell me where the great leap is from the gorilla hacking one off to the girl in red to what you define as porn

You can't classify pornography as a natural practice!

you have yet to give any kind of source or argument otherwise so I think I will continue to do so

You've taken the analogy too far. Helloooo reductio ad absurdum.

so tag is unique in this...tell me where does the buildup for such things ends with you?

However you can find statistics and findings to sway it to your side of the argument and you can just as easily find results to sway to the other side of the argument

statistics are useful when the conclusively show again and again that something is true

which is what they have done

examples:

"extensive viewing of the type of pornographic material commonly sold at adult bookstores was positively correlated with...decreased satisfaction of participants with their sex lives and partners, and an increased self-reported willingness to commit rape or other forced sexual acts."

"if a person has relatively aggressive sexual inclinations resulting from various personal and/or cultural factors, some pornography exposure may activate and reinforce associated coercive tendencies and behaviors" - Malamuth Addison Koss

Nevertheless, it has been pointed out that "high pornography use is not necessarily indicative of high risk for sexual aggression" (Malamuth, Addison, and Koss 2000:79).

well that was easy :confused:

I think you're trying to twist round the Milgram experiment to fit your argument too much. By the way you're going, you could use Milgram '61 to prove that anyone would do anything.

science has tried its best to find the limits of the results of the experiment and as history (which I again find myself pointing out) has shown its usually limitless (and I use usually in the sense that I haven't seen any research that shows otherwise)

Are you implying that they would have continued a further study to investigate forced rape if they had found a way to?

if a scientist could affectively simulate the whole rape thing ethically you can be damn sure interest in the results would have tremendous significance let alone the grants you would receive for such work

Good! I hope the US starts following suit. Porn destroys people. Not just those who watch it, but those who act in it as well. How would you feel if you had to have 3 penises shoved in you just for a little bit of money? How would that make you feel?

:rolleyes:



Moralist nannies make me sad.

no your just ignoring things like facts and science presumably because of some white knight complex :)

You presume wrong. I have no delusions of nobility, or heroism. I am no knight, and I do not wear armor, shining or otherwise. There are just simply things I will not do.

You presume wrong. I have no delusions of nobility, or heroism. I am no knight, and I do not wear armor, shining or otherwise. There are just simply things I will not do.

because you would never lay a hand on a innocent :p

seriously I don't see whats so hard to grasp about the fact that we can all be massive dicks

because you would never lay a hand on a innocent :p

Not like that I wouldn't.

seriously I don't see whats so hard to grasp about the fact that we can all be massive dicks

Of course I can be a dick. But if you think that raping another person is merely being a dick, well then I can see that our moral standards are scaled differently.

See what I did there?

I am no knight, and I do not wear armor, shining or otherwise.


Shit you mean Im the only one who does?

Better for a nation to burn to cinders and ashes in the flames of anarchy, than to be safe, clean, and sterile under and authoritarian fist.

Not like that I wouldn't.

this is getting rather amusing :p

Of course I can be a dick. But if you think that raping another person is merely being a dick, well then I can see that our moral standards are scaled differently.

hence why I included massive (because I source I gave earlier had the Roman idea that big was bad)

See what I did there?

no ;)

I don't like people who don't like that i like porn. They should be outlawed.

it shows that everyone does bad things which is really as close as I'd bet the research has got what with pesky things like ethics

Not everyone, just 65%
In Milgram's first set of experiments, 65 percent (26 of 40)[1] of experiment participants administered the experiment's final 450-volt shock, though many were very uncomfortable doing so; at some point, every participant paused and questioned the experiment, some said they would refund the money they were paid for participating in the experiment. No participant steadfastly refused to administer shocks before the 300-volt level

And if you look at the variations
In the variation where the "learner's" physical immediacy was closest, wherein participants had to physically hold the "learner's" arm onto a shock plate, compliance decreased. Under that condition, 30 percent of participants completed the experiment
You'll agree that we can count rape as close phisical immediacy. Or not?

this is getting rather amusing :p

Indeed. To claim to know for a fact that I will buckle morally... such arrogance you have.

hence why I included massive (because I source I gave earlier had the Roman idea that big was bad)

I'd say it transcends the level that can be measured in dickiwatts.

no ;)

No surprises there.

That is such a cop out! Are you saying that people who use video games do so as a means at to not go out and murder innocents? If porn "solves" that problem, then why don't doctors prescribe it for those with violent fantasies and such? Furthermore, people get caught up in the fantasy of pornography, and it will more likely empower them to do violent acts of sexual ends. Imagine it like this. You are a kid who thinks you can fly. Your parents see this in you, and tell you to watch movies about superman, because they believe it will prevent you from actually doing the act of jumping off the roof with a cape. They figure it is something entertaining, and will keep you inside and take your mind off the previous act. Little do they know, after the movie ends you will go outside and be more determined to act on your urges, because you are caught up in the fantasy even more.

Sorry, but statistics would say otherwise.
In the five years after Japan legalized all forms of pornography, the violent crime rate went down 25%, and is still the lowest in any first world nation.

It's not penises that rape. It's the problem in the brains of the attackers.

It's also generally not about sex why rape occurs. It's about empowerment, i.e. power trips.

Good! I hope the US starts following suit. Porn destroys people. Not just those who watch it, but those who act in it as well. How would you feel if you had to have 3 penises shoved in you just for a little bit of money? How would that make you feel?

Like there's a party in my pants and everyone's invited?

Like there's a party in my pants and everyone's invited?

I wasn't invited! :(