NationStates Jolt Archive


The Soviet Republic of Wall Street

Neu Leonstein
24-03-2008, 01:56
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/23/business/23view.html?_r=2&ref=business&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
[...]

To understand the depths of the current crisis, let’s go back to an apparently unrelated episode in economic thought: the socialist calculation debate. Starting in the 1920s, Ludwig von Mises, the leader of the so-called Austrian School of Economics, charged that socialism was unable to engage in rational economic calculation. Without market prices, he reasoned, no one knows how much economic resources are worth.

The subsequent poor performance of planned economies bore out his point. For instance, the Soviet Union did a poor job of producing consumer goods and developing innovative industries. In the absence of well-functioning markets for capital goods, these mistakes festered, rather than being rectified by the independent judgments of individual entrepreneurs.

The irony is that the supercharged capital markets of the American economy are now — at least temporarily — in a somewhat comparable position. Starting in August, many asset markets lost their liquidity, as trading in many kinds of junk bonds, mortgage-backed securities and auction-rate securities has virtually vanished.

Market prices have been drained of their informational value and thus don’t much reflect the “wisdom of crowds,” as they would under normal circumstances. Investors are instead flocking to the safest of assets, like Treasury bills.

The absence of trading is a big problem. Financial institutions have been stuck holding illiquid assets, whose value cannot be easily determined. Who wants to lend to the institutions holding them? No wonder there is a credit crisis and a general attitude of wait and see.

[...]

In the shorter run, economists are generally in three camps when it comes to strategies for recovery.

The fundamentalists argue that housing prices need to fall, and rapidly, so that mortgage-backed securities can be valued more accurately. Then trading can resume and financial gridlock will be undone. Advocates of a bailout, by contrast, argue that this process would be a disaster. In their view, the solvency problems are too great and the market is too skittish for the foreseeable future, so the government needs to buy up mortgage securities to prevent catastrophe.

The third group, the “wait and see” faction, finds the first two alternatives unpalatable. This group hopes that if the Fed pumps enough liquidity into banks, the passage of time will improve market information, ease worries and lead to a resumption in asset trading.

[...]

A lot of people who are quite serious advocate of laissez faire policies are getting the jitters now as their faith in the market to resurrect itself any time soon is waning. In Germany Deutsche Bank boss and national punching bag Josef Ackermann said that he thinks government intervention will be needed to get things back on track (much to the chagrin to the mob, of course).

Personally, I think the market can sort itself out, but it would take time and be a bit painful. It would involve this sort of situation continuing until there is some turnaround in foreclosures and it becomes clear that the worst is over for mortgage-backed securities. And at that point the bigger banks who sit on a bit of cash might start seeing buying opportunities.

Of course this period of waiting would do damage to the real economy and might therefore cause more foreclosures than would otherwise have been the case. A bailout could unclog the market quickly but at a risk to and expense of the taxpayer (which is the part I don't like). That would take the form of central banks buying these papers more or less directly, assuming the risk of foreclosures and a lack of a market for them and leaving banks free to go off and play again. I have a feeling Bernanke really doesn't want to do that, and central banks have denied any plans (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23420220-36375,00.html), but who knows (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=ad0zneiPUVjA&refer=home).

I'm probably in the "Wait and See" category because the other two alternatives just suck so much. I don't envy the decisionmakers right now.

So how has this affair affected your outlook of this market in particular and the market mechanism in general? Which camp do you belong to?
Call to power
24-03-2008, 02:04
I'm probably in the "Wait and See" category because the other two alternatives just suck so much. I don't envy the decisionmakers right now.

sissy! where only talking hundreds of millions here :p

So how has this affair affected your outlook of this market in particular and the market mechanism in general? Which camp do you belong to?

1) shit happens I don't think this has changed my views on anything
2) the bail outs because it seems the safer alternative and odds are will be more like an investment from government if you ask me
Infinite Revolution
24-03-2008, 02:06
i vote fundamentlist, cuz my taxes are already projected to be more than i can affored. philosophically though i'd prefer that the government (lacking any better representation) take some control and sort shit out.
Call to power
24-03-2008, 02:11
i vote fundamentlist, cuz my taxes are already projected to be more than i can affored.

you should invest everything you have in the housing market and should the world suffer total economic shutdown your new shack will be tax exempt ;)
Infinite Revolution
24-03-2008, 02:16
you should invest everything you have in the housing market and should the world suffer total economic shutdown your new shack will be tax exempt ;)

everything i have is in the minus region. with my wage i might pay off my overdraft in 5 years, if nothing major needs payed for. i'm already driving around in a car with a missing window i can't afford to replace. even on insurance.
Yootopia
24-03-2008, 02:17
i vote fundamentlist, cuz my taxes are already projected to be more than i can affored. philosophically though i'd prefer that the government (lacking any better representation) take some control and sort shit out.
Heh!
Call to power
24-03-2008, 02:22
everything i have is in the minus region.

a global depression might work out better for you then :)

think of how little that money will be worth when your buying bread with a wheelbarrow
Infinite Revolution
24-03-2008, 02:38
a global depression might work out better for you then :)

think of how little that money will be worth when your buying bread with a wheelbarrow

except i'm going to be taxed £170 more next year than this and i'm already being blead dry. or i would be if i didn't work in a cafe with awesome supervisors/management so i can eat and drink (mostly) for free. well, if you call a bowl of soup and a beer eating and drinking.
Call to power
24-03-2008, 02:44
except i'm going to be taxed £170 more next year than this and i'm already being blead dry. or i would be if i didn't work in a cafe with awesome supervisors/management so i can eat and drink (mostly) for free. well, if you call a bowl of soup and a beer eating and drinking.

try call center work I know someone on £8.50 an hour doing data handling

its not so bad as long as you do enough drugs in the restroom;)

edit: yes I have been eating chocolate and drinking all day, how did you guess?
Vetalia
24-03-2008, 02:48
I think the world's central banks have done well to stop the financial problems at Bear Stearns from spreading; a recession may still occur, but it will not be anywhere near a financial meltdown. The action of the Federal Reserve has been timely and appropriate and is for me a major sign for confidence in the leadership of Ben Bernanke, who has been working quite hard to clean up the mess left by Alan Greenspan and has now proven his ability to deal with economic problems in a far better manner than his predecessor.

We've turned a corner on the financial markets, but there's still the specter of recession ahead that has yet to show any signs of turning around.
Neu Leonstein
24-03-2008, 02:55
We've turned a corner on the financial markets, but there's still the specter of recession ahead that has yet to show any signs of turning around.
You're an optimist. None of the Fed's measures has managed to make banks lend again. Their reserves weren't high enough because they misjudged the liquidity of these bonds and now they continue grabbing any liquidity they can to get them to a comfortable level. They're not anywhere near done, as you can see by the lack of lending going on.

And even if they did start lending again, they'd still be stuck with all this paper that they'll be dragging around with them for ages...and which can spawn all sorts of surprises, like the sudden run on Bear Stearns.

And in Britain some nasty people started a rumour about a severe crisis with some British bank, causing a massive fall in the share price and leaving it on the ropes. The people made a lot of cash with it, but in this current climate this would hardly be the last instance of unsubstantiated panic getting in the way of things.
Fishutopia
24-03-2008, 16:15
I love this kind of stuff.
The market is great. The Invisible hand is perfect. The Invisible hand fixes all.

Holy XXXX, I'm about to be backhanded very hard by this invisble hand, and so is all my money. Government, stop the invisible hand. Do something, that's your job.
I know I was all small government, but I only meant cut welfare to the poor. Don't cut welfare to once rich banks or weapons contractors. Upper class welfare is essential to the economy, and you must fix that. You need to help move the invisible hand.

Hypocrites. :rolleyes:
Myrmidonisia
24-03-2008, 16:24
...I'm probably in the "Wait and See" category because the other two alternatives just suck so much. I don't envy the decisionmakers right now.

So how has this affair affected your outlook of this market in particular and the market mechanism in general? Which camp do you belong to?
Same here. We prop up farm prices all the time and agriculture hasn't collapsed -- although the ethanol mistake is certainly costing us plenty.
Lackadaisical2
24-03-2008, 23:29
I don't see why we ought to prop up the prices for homes, let them fall to a level that reasonably reflects what they're worth- its all inflated. Only the people who overspent on a house will get burned and that's their own fault, its not like they couldn't have rented something instead of buying a house for double its worth... Besides, I want to be able to afford a home sometime in my life.