NationStates Jolt Archive

Really a dual-meaning question - and I mean it both ways.
Take a look at how much you (or your guardian) paid in taxes last year.

How much sooner would your mortgage be paid off if you applied that amount to your mortgage? What about other debts? If you invested it at a moderate 6% what would you have in ten years? If you bought consumer items, spent it on travel or other what would it be?

Imagine the impact on the economy!

Now for the second meaning; I just finished my filing. I used a online provider called TaxACT. At the end they gave me a nice little summary of how the government spends my money;
(sorry if the tabs come out poorly)
Your Money Is Spent On :
..................................... Your Share %
National Defense $6,267.00 19%
Veterans and Foreign Affairs $1,319.00 4%
Medicaid, Food Stamps, and Related Programs $4,288.00 13%
Unemployment and Social Services $1,979.00 6%
Social Security, Medicare, and Other Retirement $11,874.00 36%
Interest Payments $2,639.00 8%
Law Enforcement and General Government $660.00 2%
Physical, Human, and Community Development $3,956.00 12%
Total Paid $32,982.00 100%


Do you get a similar printout? How does yours look?


Interesting, no? Here's the real irony - last year my income grew 40% but my income tax grew 300%!!!! So much for 'progressive' taxes, eh? Mostly it was due to the phaseout of tax credits and some deductions. The range for those is very very narrow. If the phaseouts were broader (not just a $10,000 difference in income) then the tax difference would have been substantially smaller.

Oh well, taxes don't suck as much as death at least...

...er I can't be bothered to chase up where my tax money goes, as bad as that makes me sound I have better things to do like crack or hookers :p

however I like things like education and health care, don't get me wrong I work full time above minimum wage to quite a large extent (bloody government steals like half my paycheck) , however fuck managing all that crap myself like I'm somehow going to exist separate from the rest of society and still live the same life

edit: my tax money would of gone on DVD's, alcohol and pizza hut :)

Well, I'm going to be paying a tad more in tax than I had to last year, but on the plus side, I'll be getting back everything I've paid into my retirement plan in cash if I switch jobs, as I'm hoping to do. So I'll come out ahead a bit.

What will I spend it on? Probably groceries. I'm looking forward to eating food intended for human beings, rather thanthe pigfeed and oats I get from the local livestock market, which makes up about half my diet presently. Some potted meat or process cheese would be a BIG improvement. :p

Really a dual-meaning question - and I mean it both ways.
Take a look at how much you (or your guardian) paid in taxes last year.

How much sooner would your mortgage be paid off if you applied that amount to your mortgage? What about other debts? If you invested it at a moderate 6% what would you have in ten years? If you bought consumer items, spent it on travel or other what would it be?

Imagine the impact on the economy!

Now for the second meaning; I just finished my filing. I used a online provider called TaxACT. At the end they gave me a nice little summary of how the government spends my money;
(sorry if the tabs come out poorly)
Your Money Is Spent On :
..................................... Your Share %
National Defense $6,267.00 19%
Veterans and Foreign Affairs $1,319.00 4%
Medicaid, Food Stamps, and Related Programs $4,288.00 13%
Unemployment and Social Services $1,979.00 6%
Social Security, Medicare, and Other Retirement $11,874.00 36%
Interest Payments $2,639.00 8%
Law Enforcement and General Government $660.00 2%
Physical, Human, and Community Development $3,956.00 12%
Total Paid $32,982.00 100%


Do you get a similar printout? How does yours look?


Interesting, no? Here's the real irony - last year my income grew 40% but my income tax grew 300%!!!! So much for 'progressive' taxes, eh? Mostly it was due to the phaseout of tax credits and some deductions. The range for those is very very narrow. If the phaseouts were broader (not just a $10,000 difference in income) then the tax difference would have been substantially smaller.

Oh well, taxes don't suck as much as death at least...
I've bolded the part that I think is the most interesting. We're already taxed at 5.5% for SSI through payroll taxes, but Congress does such a poor job of managing that money, they need to rob from the income tax to make ends meet.

Pal, you need to do something to work those taxes down. Find a fee-only financial planner and ask for help.

Are you with me on the FairTax, yet?

I've bolded the part that I think is the most interesting. We're already taxed at 5.5% for SSI through payroll taxes, but Congress does such a poor job of managing that money, they need to rob from the income tax to make ends meet.

Pal, you need to do something to work those taxes down. Find a fee-only financial planner and ask for help.

Are you with me on the FairTax, yet?

I AM a financial advisor! hehe

That is the bottom line after all my massaging. I can't donate much of my charitable giving because it is to the non-c3 division of the org and I get a 'benefit' because my kids are active members. So - even though I give much more than my fair share, I still can't deduct. So be it. I also don't keep records of some of my cash giving - which adds up to around $500. I also terminated my support for a local charity because the board pissed me off. heh. Too bad I can't deduct what I give to the blood bank...
Beyond charity I got business and interest expenses. My effective tax rate was just under 14%. Not too shabby from the 25% tb. Oh, and don't forget -- that ssi number includes my ssi withholding as well as regular tax - so some of that portion is above and beyond the 25% tax withholding. I don't think that it includes my employer match, however.

My tax money would go into saving and investing into useful enterprises for my future benefit, instead of being robbed from me to kill other people and destroy nations.

Well, I'm going to be paying a tad more in tax than I had to last year, but on the plus side, I'll be getting back everything I've paid into my retirement plan in cash if I switch jobs, as I'm hoping to do. So I'll come out ahead a bit.

What will I spend it on? Probably groceries. I'm looking forward to eating food intended for human beings, rather thanthe pigfeed and oats I get from the local livestock market, which makes up about half my diet presently. Some potted meat or process cheese would be a BIG improvement. :p

If you live in the US you should roll that retirement to your IRA. You'd be a fool to spend it for multiple reasons - not the least of which is the 10% penalty. I can promise you that whatever you spend it on will not seem important at all in less than five years - but your savings will be. In spite of what you may think - it does NOT become easier to save as you get older.

Infrastructure. Our country's economy and my earning potential invariably depend on our ability to provide these basic services to businesses and to encourage further investment in our economy.

My tax money would go into my (hypothetical) foreign bank account. :)

Infrastructure. Our country's economy and my earning potential invariably depend on our ability to provide these basic services to businesses and to encourage further investment in our economy.

If you were able to spend it on yourself instead of on taxes what would it do for you?

If you were able to spend it on yourself instead of on taxes what would it do for you?

Probably invest it in an IRA.

Probably invest it in an IRA.

Not sure, but if your tax is that low you may be eligible to do just that;

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/retirement/05/022105.asp
Tax Credit
You may be eligible for a non-refundable tax credit of up to 50% of your IRA contribution, not exceeding $1,000, depending on your adjusted gross income and tax-filing status. Here are the tax credits that are allowed for combinations of particular income ranges and tax-filing statuses:

If you live in the US you should roll that retirement to your IRA. You'd be a fool to spend it for multiple reasons - not the least of which is the 10% penalty. I can promise you that whatever you spend it on will not seem important at all in less than five years - but your savings will be. In spite of what you may think - it does NOT become easier to save as you get older.

It's a 20% penalty, actually, and you're right, but I don't have an IRA, 401(k) or even a bank account anymore for that matter. I have it arranged so that I don't "exist" on paper. Creditors, and all that. In any case, I spend absolutely nothing on non-essentials, so as far as spending habits and discipline, I'm good to go. :p I spend less than 1$ a day on groceries, and that includes laundry detergent and hygiene products, etc., with no dependents or friends/family/etc. It's all good. :)

Wait a minute... are you claiming that your tax burden is ~$30k and that you pay ~15% of your income in tax?

It's a 20% penalty, actually, and you're right, but I don't have an IRA, 401(k) or even a bank account anymore for that matter. I have it arranged so that I don't "exist" on paper. Creditors, and all that. In any case, I spend absolutely nothing on non-essentials, so as far as spending habits and discipline, I'm good to go. :p I spend less than 1$ a day on groceries, and that includes laundry detergent and hygiene products, etc., with no dependents or friends/family/etc. It's all good. :)

um, no, it is 10% - and an IRA is virtually immune from creditors. With spending that low IRA saving sounds idea for you

If you paid that much in federal taxes this year you have a very, very nice AGI. It also means you crossed the threashold of middle class to upper class, so of course your taxes "progressed".

Your phaseouts were based more on your gross than anything and as you make more they will phase out more. You see the wealthy don't actually get all those imaginary tax breaks everyone whines about, nor do they get by not paying any taxes as you can easily see. :p

As I tell my clients, you don't owe it if you didn't make it. Congrats on a very nice income year! :)

(I'm an Enrolled Agent. ;) )

um, no, it is 10% - and an IRA is virtually immune from creditors. With spending that low IRA saving sounds idea for you

It's 20% according to the booklet I have in my file cabinet. I'm a state employee, in California - for direct payment there's an automatic 20%, with the rest taxed normally, according to that. But anyway, like I was saying, I have no such account, and starting one would cost me more than the money I'd be putting in, so that's out. I've only been in the system for four-odd years, so I haven't paid too much into the system - 7.5% of not much. :p

It's 20% according to the booklet I have in my file cabinet. I'm a state employee, in California - for direct payment there's an automatic 20%, with the rest taxed normally, according to that. But anyway, like I was saying, I have no such account, and starting one would cost me more than the money I'd be putting in, so that's out. I've only been in the system for four-odd years, so I haven't paid too much into the system - 7.5% of not much. :p

You are confusing tax withholding with penalties. Though you could make a strong case that taxes ARE penalties, in this instance they are distinct and separate.

It also means you crossed the threashold of middle class to upper class, so of course your taxes "progressed".

)

That is a very very narrow threshold. Kinda like stepping through a warp-gate. I'm not exactly keeping company with the likes of Warren Buffet, or even Warren Beatty. In fact, it is actually more upper-middle class - since my household income is hardly more than a teacher and firemen who file jointly.

That is a very very narrow threshold. Kinda like stepping through a warp-gate.

Yep, it is a line drawn between one dollar amount and another. :)

I filed my taxes about a month ago. I had to pay $24 on about $1,000 of already taxed income. Yay.

considering that we all paid far less than what the government spent, what difference does it make what i would do with the money that i did pay?

considering that we all paid far less than what the government spent, what difference does it make what i would do with the money that i did pay?

I suppose it would matter on what you'd spend it on. For most people it is thousands of dollars. That would go nicely towards the mortgage, hobby or world voyage fund...

Nothing spectacular, as it's not that much. If I get Pell Grants this year the Grants would get me more than I paid in taxes.

I would probably spend it on taxes. :D

If I got to keep the $20,000 I pay in taxes every year I'd definitely invest it somehow.

Well, since I keep my debt to a minimum (credit card paid off each month in full, car payment in early so as to miss late fees) and I am moving (yay!) and I have about 2 year's worth of rent in the bank at the moment, I shall do my best for the economy and use the stimulus check for furnishings.

;)

Male prostitutes. Japanese male prostitutes. Anyone want to join?

At the moment? A new exhaust for my car, probably. It's got a crack in it and sounds and feels horrible.

Male prostitutes. Japanese male prostitutes. Anyone want to join?

If you're buying, sure!

If you're buying, sure!

Ok!

Ok!

yay !:p

(sorry if the tabs come out poorly)Jolt forums doesn't take kindly to multiple spaces. It condenses them all into a single space. I use white underscores instead.

EDIT: As to the OP, I would spend it on stuff currently covered by taxes. Except I would be paying more for the services myself than I would save from not paying taxes. I'll pay roughly $3,000 in taxes, but my tuition fees alone would increase by around $4,000. So yeah, I'd be boned.

...So yeah, I'd be boned.

enough with the prostitutes already!

;)

Yep, it is a line drawn between one dollar amount and another. :)

That would make for an interesting poll, actually. Where is the break between middle class and 'rich'? The IRS seems to have multiple breakpoints;

IRA deductibility phaseouts; $85k-$105k
Tax Credit phaseouts; $110k-$120k
Stimulus phaseout; $150k-$170k
Itemized deduction phaseouts; $156,000+
Personal Exemptions; $234,600+

It seems the difference between middle class and rich is only $10k-$20k - I'm just not sure at which of the points it is counted from. Whatever the case - it hardly seems fair to treat someone with $10,000 more income than his neighbor as if they were in the same income league as Jack Welch, Terry Semel or Lawrence Ellison.

I think it would be nice if we knew exactly where our money was going, and could have more say in where it gets spent. I know this would create numerous difficulties in the cost of such a system, but it would at least give the illusion that you were not just throwing your money down a black hole to whereever your oh so smart government deems fit to spend it.

Personally i'd spend mine on, food, education, and earth ships (as in ones that go under the earth's crust which would be cool).

I would spend the money on getting the hell out of a country that didn't have any taxes.

Err assuming we had no public services any more :

- Healthcare
- Paying someone to fix up the roads
- Education
- Paying someone to sort out the sewerage
- Paying for some polis
- Other such things we pay taxes for, but would now have to just directly spend money on.

With the 38p we'd have extra, a dark-chocolate KitKat, so the family could have one stick each and love our libertarian paradise.

Err assuming we had no public services any more :

- Healthcare
- Paying someone to fix up the roads
- Education
- Paying someone to sort out the sewerage
- Paying for some polis
- Other such things we pay taxes for, but would now have to just directly spend money on.

With the 38p we'd have extra, a dark-chocolate KitKat, so the family could have one stick each and love our libertarian paradise.

I thought they were more expensive than that?

healthcare? nnaaaa just train everyone to be surgeons and doctors in every field.
Fix roads? hmmm i wonder if we could use metal as a road surface anyway, wouldn't break down as much.
Sewerage? yeah you got a point there.
Polis? maybe but without all that paperwork.

I'd like the UK government to use my money to follow Agenda07's Foolproof Get-Rich-Quick Plan!!!

1. Invest in Danish flags.
2. Persuade Danish press to reprint Mohammed Cartoons.
3. ???
4. Profit!!!

:)

EDIT: Yeah, and I suppose we could spend the money on healthcare, education and stuff like that...

I thought they were more expensive than that?
Not at the Jacksons down the road, no.
healthcare? nnaaaa just train everyone to be surgeons and doctors in every field.
With what vast reserves of money going into training?
Fix roads? hmmm i wonder if we could use metal as a road surface anyway, wouldn't break down as much.
No. It's a conductive material.

Crap in Summer and Winter alike, and it gets rusty. Rusty roads are rubbish. Rusty roads that shrink in Winter and expand in Summer, as well as being covered in sheets of ice in Winter and melting one's times in Summer are even worse.
Sewerage? yeah you got a point there.
Damn right.
Polis? maybe but without all that paperwork.
The paperwork is there for a reason, you know, so that people who feel they've been wronged can go through the extremely detailed files to find out if, how and when they were wronged.



The problem with Libertarianism is that it completely doesn't understand or value economies of scale. If you get small groups of people working together of their own accord (which you won't, unless it's made of extremely intelligent people who do well with a state anyway), then they pay more for the same services that the general public gets anyway. Large groupings will not exist in any serviceable form unless absolutely coerced or well rewarded.

Minor, if relevant example - the Students' Union. The Exec (of eleven) is made up of those who are supposedly the best and brightest. This is not true, we have some absolute fuckups as officers, but there we go. The council (of about seventy, give or take whoever gives a shit enough to come to the meetings) is a pisstake, they can't agree on anything and they're a bunch of morons. They are the general public. Without actually forcing them through such methods as "and we'll kick you off" or "no biscuits at the next meeting, then", they fail and fail badly.

Do we really want a society with a few people at the top, who wouldn't be as rich as they would with a society around them anyway, and then a whole bunch of penniless morons who might just about be able to eat?

No, because that ends in revolution, and nobody wants that. Mob rule is crap. See the short-term consequences of any revolution, anywhere, ever. You get bands of the most stupid and blindly faithful going around destroying those who, likely as not, did an alright job at the top, given the circumstances.

We don't really want to be poor, nor do we really want mob rule and anarchy, this is why Libertarianism (and anarchism in general) is a poorer idea than the 'standard' model of western society that we already work by.

I think it would be nice if we knew exactly where our money was going, and could have more say in where it gets spent. I know this would create numerous difficulties in the cost of such a system, but it would at least give the illusion that you were not just throwing your money down a black hole to whereever your oh so smart government deems fit to spend it.

Personally i'd spend mine on, food, education, and earth ships (as in ones that go under the earth's crust which would be cool).

That would be nice - because then the government would cater to the people who pay them...