NationStates Jolt Archive

http://blameitonthevoices.blogspot.com/2008/02/norwegian-prison.html

Remember people, if there's one country to get yourself arrested in, it's Norway. Look at that place, puts any college dorm I've been in to shame.

http://blameitonthevoices.blogspot.com/2008/02/norwegian-prison.html

Remember people, if there's one country to get yourself arrested in, it's Norway. Look at that place, puts any college dorm I've been in to shame.

Last time I heard, prisons were called 'Correctional Services', not 'Punishment Services'.

Yeah. Way to go from the Socialist cunts we've had in government since the war. What better way to stop crime than to make the criminals live better in prison than out of it?

From the feedback on the article

In american prisons they probably use something worse, like Vista.

You are about to get sodomized. Allow or Deny?

I lol'd

*insert anal rape joke here*

Last time I heard, prisons were called 'Correctional Services', not 'Punishment Services'.

There should always be a balance between punishment and rehab, a prison is for criminals after all. Now I'm no expert on the Norwegian correctional system, but that place is just...wow...

There should always be a balance between punishment and rehab, a prison is for criminals after all. Now I'm no expert on the Norwegian correctional system, but that place is just...wow...

The word you're looking for is "perfectly normal", especially given that our courts rarely dish out more than five years imprisonment for even the most henious of crimes. For example, a rapist got one year the other day. One year, for raping a sixteen year old girl, plus paying the girl 100 000 NOK. And this wasn't his first offense. Oh no. It was his eight conviction! That says something about our penal system, doesn't it?

There's a reason why I advocate a revolution and the reintroduction of the benevolent monarchy like we had in the good old days.

The word you're looking for is "perfectly normal", especially given that our courts rarely dish out more than five years imprisonment for even the most henious of crimes. For example, a rapist got one year the other day. One year, for raping a sixteen year old girl, plus paying the girl 100 000 NOK. And this wasn't his first offense. Oh no. It was his eight conviction! That says something about our penal system, doesn't it?


That's fucked up, yes, but I'm not sure if you're being entirely accurate.


There's a reason why I advocate a revolution and the reintroduction of the benevolent monarchy like we had in the good old days.

Really? I'm not seeing it.

Man, if people want better lives, all they have to do is move there and rob a bank.

It's a win-win situation.

Wait, you want us to look at random pictures on a blog for an analysis of prison conditions in Norway?

And then you imply that decent conditions of imprisonment somehow constitute living well?

Well, prisons are supposed to be "correctional facilities" as in they help correct your mistakes. Needless to say, the theory behind most prisons is to lock you up in order to prevent you from doing harm to others.

This is probably more of a, "Let's turn your life around and prevent you from doing something stupid in the future, ok?" prisons.

*goes to Norway* Mehehehehehehe *Breaks almost every law there is, gets sent to prison* Ahhh, this is the life.

There's a reason why I advocate a revolution and the reintroduction of the benevolent monarchy like we had in the good old days.
Let's reintroduce the union like we had in the good old days while we're at it. ;)

I think prison is a bad idea regardless of how nice or disgusting it is. To gather criminals together in the same place and give them a couple years get to know each other, form new criminal organizations and plan new crimes does not teach them to be honest from now on.

In one picture they have a mat with pretty roads and houses painted on it, do Norwegian criminals play with toy cars?

There should always be a balance between punishment and rehab, a prison is for criminals after all. Now I'm no expert on the Norwegian correctional system, but that place is just...wow...

what evidence do you have that making people live in worse conditions in prisons is more effective at keeping crime rates down?

And then you imply that decent conditions of imprisonment somehow constitute living well?

well know fact - prison is awesome. this is why there are waiting lists to get admitted in.

Im not buying that those are prisons for any hardened criminals.


Probably white collar prisons. Much like the ones in the States.


Also, Norway does have lower crime rates, so clearly whatever theyre doing is working.

Remember also that the images of the OP link are of minimal security prison, the lowest you can get for the crimes of the lowest end of the spectrum.

Also, 'punishment' in law is absolutely useless to society, the role of law is maintaining balance in society and to bring back the maladjusted criminal into the norm of societal behavior. I support a prison system where the prisoner isn't sent into a cage to waste away into nothing, but can be active in reform-through-labor, and can give back to society what they took. I think you'll find that prison drugs and the underground culture would decrease massively if this approach was taken. Correction is about putting back what the criminal took from society, not just having the prison system leech off the resources of society.

Its the same in some low-level correctional facilities here in America.

Back in the 90's my cousin was doing a 3-year stint for fraud. While in prison he was allowed to earn credits toward a mathematics degree from Brown University (Ivy League school), while I worked 2 jobs and needed a Pell grant just to get through community college.

And I've never been arrested for anything. Just an average, law abiding, tax paying citizen. Now that's fair. :upyours:

Remember also that the images of the OP link are of minimal security prison, the lowest you can get for the crimes of the lowest end of the spectrum.

Exactly waht I was saying. Prisons in America for CEOs and Celebrities look much the same.


In fact Andaras, in this regard I encourage you to go on a Marxist rant.

In fact Andaras, in this regard I encourage you to go on a Marxist rant.
*Waves hands wildly, mouths "No knights, don't get him started! DON'T!*

Yeah. Way to go from the Socialist cunts we've had in government since the war. What better way to stop crime than to make the criminals live better in prison than out of it?
What better way to encourage crime than to make it more difficult to live out of prison than in?

Exactly waht I was saying. Prisons in America for CEOs and Celebrities look much the same.


In fact Andaras, in this regard I encourage you to go on a Marxist rant.

I did, it's above edited onto my my last post.

http://blameitonthevoices.blogspot.com/2008/02/norwegian-prison.html

Remember people, if there's one country to get yourself arrested in, it's Norway. Look at that place, puts any college dorm I've been in to shame.
You should have posted the clip from Sicko (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4L6-0WRfSA) instead - the deleted scene. (For the lazy people, go to somewhere around 5:40 to see the prison clip.)

Yeah. Way to go from the Socialist cunts we've had in government since the war. What better way to stop crime than to make the criminals live better in prison than out of it?
...which is why the standard of living is so high, the country is deemed one of the best to live in, and why the crime rate is quite low?

There should always be a balance between punishment and rehab, a prison is for criminals after all. Now I'm no expert on the Norwegian correctional system, but that place is just...wow...
Wow indeed. Now I look forward to you showing us pics from Maximum security prisons, and showing that the "luxury prisons" are the norm. Oh, and feel free to compare the pics with pictures from other prisons in other countries too.

Chop chop!

*goes to Norway* Mehehehehehehe *Breaks almost every law there is, gets sent to prison* Ahhh, this is the life.
*Wakes Conserative Morality in a Maximum Security prison*
*Lets CM stay locked up in his cell for 23 hours a day for several years*
*Agrees to let CM serve 15 years in a maximum security prison his home country*
*Deports*

Enjoy :fluffle:

Also, 'punishment' in law is absolutely useless to society, the role of law is maintaining balance in society and to bring back the maladjusted criminal into the norm of societal behavior. I support a prison system where the prisoner isn't sent into a cage to waste away into nothing, but can be active in reform-through-labor, and can give back to society what they took. I think you'll find that prison drugs and the underground culture would decrease massively if this approach was taken. Correction is about putting back what the criminal took from society, not just having the prison system leech off the resources of society.

This.

/thread

I suppose I should dig out the pics I took of the prison in Oslo. It looks like a prison.

And like so many others in this thread, let me again mention the low crime rates. It's not broke, and citizens from countries with exponentially higher crime really shouldn't be criticizing it.

I guess this is the kind of prison where you don't have to think about how to avoid getting anally raped every night.

...erm, and this is a bad thing how, exactly?

OK....so if I ever go insane and go on a killing spree norway is the best place to do it? Only a few years in a wimpy prison for even the worst of crimes, I don't know why more criminals don't go there.

OK....so if I ever go insane and go on a killing spree norway is the best place to do it? Only a few years in a wimpy prison for even the worst of crimes, I don't know why more criminals don't go there.
Because most people arn't culturally reinforced douchebags?

Because most people arn't culturally reinforced douchebags?

That's the spirit!

You'll find that society and the material conditions of a society create criminality, which is why it's very low in Norway.

Andaras, you may have some of the strangest views since stalin, but at least you are fairly "polite". Quite a few people on here can be jerkwads when debating, and I have not seen you drop to that type of all around "jerkwadishness".

Even Varg complained that the prisons were too comfortable. But then again, he's Varg. :P

That's fucked up, yes, but I'm not sure if you're being entirely accurate.
"Serial Rapist Convicted for the 8th Time" (Norwegian) (http://www.h-avis.no/article/20080315/NYHET/953232989)

I am being entirely accurate. Do you know squat about Norwegian conditions? If not, kindly do some research on the subject before speaking again.
Let's reintroduce the union like we had in the good old days while we're at it. ;)

I think prison is a bad idea regardless of how nice or disgusting it is. To gather criminals together in the same place and give them a couple years get to know each other, form new criminal organizations and plan new crimes does not teach them to be honest from now on.

In one picture they have a mat with pretty roads and houses painted on it, do Norwegian criminals play with toy cars?
1) Let's not.
2) In an ideal world, one wouldn't have the need for prisons. But then again, we don't live in an ideal world, regardless of how badly the naive socialists and labor governments we've had since the war want to to be.
3) Family room, for visits by the family.
OK....so if I ever go insane and go on a killing spree norway is the best place to do it? Only a few years in a wimpy prison for even the worst of crimes, I don't know why more criminals don't go there.
8 - 21 years (soon to be up to 30 years) imprisonment, in relatively bad cases it can be made into what we Norwegians call "forvaring", which means that you're locked up and can technically remain in prison until you die of old age. It's given to the particularly dangerous criminals and isn't as comfortable as the prison you've seen pictures of. It's still too comfortable as the people who sit there ought to have been executed for their crimes.

Is this the time to compare Norway's murder rates versus America's?

Norway: 0.78 murders per 100 000 inhabitants anually
US: 5.9 murders per 100 000 inhabitants anually

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate#2000s

There should always be a balance between punishment and rehab, a prison is for criminals after all. Now I'm no expert on the Norwegian correctional system, but that place is just...wow...A lot of the stuff there probably isn't available on a daily basis. The room with the children's toys looks like a room for visiting families, not a place they get to hang out. The punishment is no freedom of movement. Besides, you can't really gather what kind of prisoners get kept here (murderers? rapists? thieves? burglars? people that lied in court? who?).
Basically, lots of pretty pictures, no other information.

Norway: 0.78 murders per 100 000 inhabitants anually
US: 5.9 murders per 100 000 inhabitants anually

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate#2000s

Ah, so those naive socialists aren't doing too badly as compared to the land of three strike rules, death sentences and the like.

"Serial Rapist Convicted for the 8th Time" (Norwegian) (http://www.h-avis.no/article/20080315/NYHET/953232989)

I am being entirely accurate. Do you know squat about Norwegian conditions? If not, kindly do some research on the subject before speaking again.


For those incapable of reading Norwegian:

He's already been convicted for four rapes between 1999-2005. The article mentions that he is still serving time for these, but does not elaborate what the punishment for these were. If these were all 25 year sentences, for example, then there'd be no point in adding anymore years to his sentences.

He's been found guilty of the rape of the 16 year old girl back in the spring of 2003. It is unknown at this time if he intends to challenge the courts decision.

He also performed three rapes against two women in 2003 and in those cases he was also found guilty. Those cases are still ongoing however, as he has challenged the court ruling (forgive me for not knowing the english term).

So one year? Yeah, for that rape. Do we know what he got for all the other rapes? Nope.

This looks more like a minimum security prison; correctional services facility.

One year for rape? Fucking Norweigens. They desperately, DESPERATELY need fascism. And this is coming from one of the biggest freedomniks around.

Yeah, much better to stick people into a ridiculously overcrowded facility where drug use, sexual and physical abuse are rampant, where programs to 'rehabilitate' are either stretched to their absolute limits or a complete joke, and where a petty thief learns to commit more serious crimes. You see, we don't actually, as the public, feel good about beating prisoners, or treating them horribly...but we expect, nay DEMAND that other inmates (not the state, never the state) do this to them. Anything less is letting them off entirely too easy.

but can be active in reform-through-labor, and can give back to society what they took.

no, that was abolished for a reason and not just because it was unprofitable

You should have posted the clip from Sicko (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4L6-0WRfSA) instead - the deleted scene. (For the lazy people, go to somewhere around 5:40 to see the prison clip.)

yeah but the argument that its all funded by oil is put forward time and time again :p

You see, we don't actually, as the public, feel good about beating prisoners, or treating them horribly...but we expect, nay DEMAND that other inmates (not the state, never the state) do this to them. Anything less is letting them off entirely too easy.

well its hardly just the public who support this, in a way prisons are designed to create such environments

well its hardly just the public who support this, in a way prisons are designed to create such environments

And you think public opinion has nothing to do with it?

If the public, at large, actually believed in rehabilitation, don't you think the prisons in that society would reflect that?

Because that's what I see. In communities where rehabilitation is taken seriously, the prisons are a hell of a lot different than they are in areas where people mouth the words, but not-so-secretly wish rapings and beatings on criminals.

8 - 21 years (soon to be up to 30 years) imprisonment, in relatively bad cases it can be made into what we Norwegians call "forvaring", which means that you're locked up and can technically remain in prison until you die of old age. It's given to the particularly dangerous criminals and isn't as comfortable as the prison you've seen pictures of.
...but they don't get placed in "special" prisons, they will serve their time in the same type of prisons that "everybody else" is placed in.

It's still too comfortable as the people who sit there ought to have been executed for their crimes.
They ought not.

For those incapable of reading Norwegian:

He's already been convicted for four rapes between 1999-2005. The article mentions that he is still serving time for these, but does not elaborate what the punishment for these were. If these were all 25 year sentences, for example, then there'd be no point in adding anymore years to his sentences.

He's been found guilty of the rape of the 16 year old girl back in the spring of 2003. It is unknown at this time if he intends to challenge the courts decision.

He also performed three rapes against two women in 2003 and in those cases he was also found guilty. Those cases are still ongoing however, as he has challenged the court ruling (forgive me for not knowing the english term).

So one year? Yeah, for that rape. Do we know what he got for all the other rapes? Nope.
Do we know if there were any mitigating circumstances? No. Did they factor in the fact that it has gone five years since the rape? We don't know.

Seeing as how the mandatory minimum for rapes in Norway is two years, there has to be something rather important that's still not known to us...

Yeah, much better to stick people into a ridiculously overcrowded facility where drug use, sexual and physical abuse are rampant, where programs to 'rehabilitate' are either stretched to their absolute limits or a complete joke, and where a petty thief learns to commit more serious crimes. You see, we don't actually, as the public, feel good about beating prisoners, or treating them horribly...but we expect, nay DEMAND that other inmates (not the state, never the state) do this to them. Anything less is letting them off entirely too easy.
It's a sad state of affairs - and even worse, it could be avoided :(

yeah but the argument that its all funded by oil is put forward time and time again :p
Like a well-oiled machine ;)

And you think public opinion has nothing to do with it?

well it has in a way (thank you advent of the tabloid) however modern prison policy tends to involve divide and conquer militaristic policy's, but that is also to do with running a prison on as few resources as possible

If the public, at large, actually believed in rehabilitation, don't you think the prisons in that society would reflect that?

considering the early experiments in rehabilitation ended in disaster (who would of thought locking someone in a blank cell for the first week to think about what they did would end with suicide!?)

I don't know if public attitude should be too involved in the whole affair as rehabilitation shares its ground with the medical field

Because that's what I see. In communities where rehabilitation is taken seriously, the prisons are a hell of a lot different than they are in areas where people mouth the words, but not-so-secretly wish rapings and beatings on criminals.

well yes but a prisons operating is also affected by budget and overcrowding constraints

And you think public opinion has nothing to do with it?

If the public, at large, actually believed in rehabilitation, don't you think the prisons in that society would reflect that?

Because that's what I see. In communities where rehabilitation is taken seriously, the prisons are a hell of a lot different than they are in areas where people mouth the words, but not-so-secretly wish rapings and beatings on criminals.
I see this too.

Even here on NSG you see the attitudes - "at least he'll be ass-raped while serving his sentence" is not an uncommon sentiment when a debate about a particular criminal case is presented here.

How a prisoner is treated tells a lot about the society in question...

Norway: 0.78 murders per 100 000 inhabitants anually
US: 5.9 murders per 100 000 inhabitants anually

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate#2000s

Hey, we arn't saying America has wonderfull crime rates, but considering the difference in population, that can be excused a tiny bit.

Ah, so those naive socialists aren't doing too badly as compared to the land of three strike rules, death sentences and the like.

You have no idea how rare and hard it is to get a death sentance do you?

How a prisoner is treated tells a lot about the society in question...
It also helps determine their willingness to become a functioning member of society afterwards.

I have long since decided a stepped program for prisons is best.

First and second offence, or such, the early stuff, you go in for rehabilitation. If it was an accident, or something like that, this saves trouble and brings them back into society while still, somewhat, punishing them as they are still isolated from society.

If they are "rehabilitated" and when released continue to do that thing, heavy theft, rape, so on, lock them up for punishment in a new prison. Include rehabilitation and strict control, but make sure punishment is both a big factor, and a publicly known factor. You might get lucky and get the fear factor of those who come out of their early offences not wanting to go to the "special" prison.

If even after that they persist, execute them.

Now this applies to serious crimes, and would be adjusted for the crime at hand. But it's good we have trials and judges for this. For theft it may involve many times in the first level, and few in the second, but never execution. For child rape and murder it might involve only one time through the first two levels.

Ther are merits to all systems, and detriments. I strongly believe a combination is best because none of them are even remotely perfect.

For those incapable of reading Norwegian:

He's already been convicted for four rapes between 1999-2005. The article mentions that he is still serving time for these, but does not elaborate what the punishment for these were. If these were all 25 year sentences, for example, then there'd be no point in adding anymore years to his sentences.

He's been found guilty of the rape of the 16 year old girl back in the spring of 2003. It is unknown at this time if he intends to challenge the courts decision.

He also performed three rapes against two women in 2003 and in those cases he was also found guilty. Those cases are still ongoing however, as he has challenged the court ruling (forgive me for not knowing the english term).

So one year? Yeah, for that rape. Do we know what he got for all the other rapes? Nope.

So, if I understand correctly, it's not that he got one year for rape, it's that he got one extra year added on to his existing sentence?

Hey, we arn't saying America has wonderfull crime rates, but considering the difference in population, that can be excused a tiny bit.

What on earth does the difference in population have to do with the per capita crime rates?

The word you're looking for is "perfectly normal", especially given that our courts rarely dish out more than five years imprisonment for even the most henious of crimes.
Varg Vikernes is currently serving a 21 year sentence, and he's locked up at Tromsø. That doesn't sound terribly pleasant.

So, if I understand correctly, it's not that he got one year for rape, it's that he got one extra year added on to his existing sentence?

The article is vague on that point. I think it's trying to be sensationalist and trying to leave out facts to make it seem like it's actually more of an issue than it really is.

But that is just a guess and I would strongly suggest finding a better source.

Norway's been going downhill ever since they broke the union. Really, that must constitute a casus belli. Stormaktstiden om igen!

On a more serious note though, I wish more prisons were like that one.

What on earth does the difference in population have to do with the per capita crime rates?

Larger population density. Plus the fact that Europe doesn't seem to have a "gang" culture helps a lot.

Yeah, much better to stick people into a ridiculously overcrowded facility where drug use, sexual and physical abuse are rampant, where programs to 'rehabilitate' are either stretched to their absolute limits or a complete joke, and where a petty thief learns to commit more serious crimes. You see, we don't actually, as the public, feel good about beating prisoners, or treating them horribly...but we expect, nay DEMAND that other inmates (not the state, never the state) do this to them. Anything less is letting them off entirely too easy.
Shouldn't punishment be unpleasant? Won't it have a stronger deterrent effect if it is?

You have no idea how rare and hard it is to get a death sentance do you?

I have plenty of idea. My point is about how emotional responses to crime (the colbert approach, if you will) don't actually produce the results they are susposed to. Norway is world ranked number one for standard of living, this susposedly crazy system does actually work.

The article is vague on that point. I think it's trying to be sensationalist and trying to leave out facts to make it seem like it's actually more of an issue than it really is.

But that is just a guess and I would strongly suggest finding a better source.
I would try if I spoke Norwegian.
Shouldn't punishment be unpleasant? Won't it have a stronger deterrent effect if it is?

By that reasoning the death penalty should drastically reduce the number of crimes.

people, people...

think about this.

These are Norwegians we are talking about.

They got all the violence out of their DNA ages ago, sending them off to conquer and pillage. They have been taking their meds for centuries now. Any troublemakers that slipped through the cracks got shipped off to Wisconsin in the 1800's.

What's left is probably the most placid, harmless population on the planet. Ghandi was a badass mofo compared to the typical Norwegian.

You CAN hold Norwegians in a place like that. You put Americans (North or South, either kind, except Canadians) in that kind of prison, they'd make weapons in the workshop, riot, take over, and do unspeakable things to the guards.

I mean, really, DeWalt power tools? Macho men would demand Makita or Bosch.

Ugh, since so many of you persist in the delusion that the OP's images are representational of all Norwegian prisons, let me show you what the prison in Oslo looks like:
http://files.myopera.com/RWgirl/albums/476997/Oslo%20Prison2.jpg

http://files.myopera.com/RWgirl/albums/476997/Osloprison1.jpg

http://files.myopera.com/RWgirl/albums/476997/Oslo%20prison3.jpg


And this interior shot is obviously not mine:
http://www.sas.com/images/success/osloprison/osloprison.jpg

One year for rape? Fucking Norweigens. They desperately, DESPERATELY need fascism. And this is coming from one of the biggest freedomniks around.

In American the minimum is two and the max is 15, however most rapists wont even see jail time if convicted because of time served and such. We're not much better.

In American the minimum is two and the max is 15, however most rapists wont even see jail time if convicted because of time served and such. We're not much better.

I know. :( It ain't republicans that make it that way though.

I know. :( It ain't republicans that make it that way though.


:rolleyes:

Nor is it democrats. Its the culture and the way society views things like rape.

Larger population density. Plus the fact that Europe doesn't seem to have a "gang" culture helps a lot.Norway has limited living space, meaning the few places where larger populations can live will be rather crowded. Of course, by extension, most European nations would have to be rife with crime, seeing as the overall population density kicks the shit out of the US.

By that reasoning the death penalty should drastically reduce the number of crimes.
I don't see why. Being dead doesn't seem that unpleasant, and the actual death has been sanitised my modern medical practises.

Larger population density. Plus the fact that Europe doesn't seem to have a "gang" culture helps a lot.

Europe has more people in a smaller area than the US does. Overall, Europe has fewer murders per capita. Does this mean that it's all down to gang culture then?

Norway has limited living space, meaning the few places where larger populations can live will be rather crowded. Of course, by extension, most European nations would have to be rife with crime, seeing as the overall population density kicks the shit out of the US.

This is going to be difficult because to them, being really mean to criminals does reduce crime. That is the way of the world. It's like finding out South America doesn't exist or something.

Europe has more people in a smaller area than the US does. Overall, Europe has fewer murders per capita. Does this mean that it's all down to gang culture then?

He's got the factor running backwards. Higher density is associated with LOWER crime rates, in part because denser populations develop social rules about how to get along in crowded conditions.

Unfortunately, in the US at least, lower income is strongly associated with higher density, and lower income is strongly associated with higher crime thus masking the influence of density to a degree.

The demographic MOST associated with violent crime is the proportion of single young men in the population. Where it is high (South America, the Middle East) violence tends to be high. Where it is moderate (the US) violence is moderate, and where it is low, (Europe, Japan) violence is low.

It's that simple.

He's got the factor running backwards. Higher density is associated with LOWER crime rates, in part because denser populations develop social rules about how to get along in crowded conditions.

Unfortunately, in the US at least, lower income is strongly associated with higher density, and lower income is strongly associated with higher crime thus masking the influence of density to a degree.

The demographic MOST associated with violent crime is the proportion of single young men in the population. Where it is high (South America, the Middle East) violence tends to be high. Where it is moderate (the US) violence is moderate, and where it is low, (Europe, Japan) violence is low.

It's that simple.

For that, you will have to provide a source. I do not believe there is significantly fewer men per 1000s in Europe than there is in the US.

While you're at it you can get the sources for all the other locations.

So, if I understand correctly, it's not that he got one year for rape, it's that he got one extra year added on to his existing sentence?
No, he got one year for rape in a conviction that's separate from the others he's gotten.

Shouldn't punishment be unpleasant? Won't it have a stronger deterrent effect if it is?
Isn't removing your freedom of movement enough?

I know. :( It ain't republicans that make it that way though.
Sure it is.

Not that the democrats aren't to "blame" to, but seriously...

I don't see why. Being dead doesn't seem that unpleasant, and the actual death has been sanitised my modern medical practises.
You're silly.

Isn't removing your freedom of movement enough?
Given that crime keeps happening, apparently not.
You're silly.
I'm rational. If the goal of punishment is to deter bad acts, then the punishment should be something worth avoiding.

Given that crime keeps happening, apparently not.
And making it "uncomfortable" would somehow improve the effect?

Again, look at the crime rates for Norway Vs. the US.

I'm rational. If the goal of punishment is to deter bad acts, then the punishment should be something worth avoiding.
Not very rational to discount the death penalty and to imply that death is not something that people would try to avoid - especially compared to how they apparently would avoid uncomfortable living conditions.

And making it "uncomfortable" would somehow improve the effect?

Again, look at the crime rates for Norway Vs. the US.
There are cultural differences at work, there. You're not making an apples-to-apples comparison.

You see the same differences between Canada and the US.
Not very rational to discount the death penalty and to imply that death is not something that people would try to avoid - especially compared to how they apparently would avoid uncomfortable living conditions.
And my point is that prisons aren't particularly uncomfortable, and the ways in which they are uncomfortable aren't well publicised.

If we tortured prisoners, and did so openly, I suspect potential criminals would be less willing to risk going there.

Wow now we know where to commit crimes...

Except not. But please don't let facts deter your ignorance.

Yeah. Way to go from the Socialist cunts we've had in government since the war. What better way to stop crime than to make the criminals live better in prison than out of it?

This is a low security prison from the looks of it, for those with very little time left on their sentence or minor crimes and would rather not screw it up.

I bet their high security prisons are much harsher places to live.

I have long since decided a stepped program for prisons is best.

ah the fun of applying steps to all cases

First and second offence, or such, the early stuff, you go in for rehabilitation. If it was an accident, or something like that, this saves trouble and brings them back into society while still, somewhat, punishing them as they are still isolated from society.

accidents are rarely things to go to jail for and I hardly think criminal negligence is something you can really rehabilitate :confused:

but if it keeps you happy some health and safety seminars could be funky

If they are "rehabilitated" and when released continue to do that thing, heavy theft, rape, so on, lock them up for punishment in a new prison.

I've yet to see this notion of punishment actually work, I mean corporal punishment (and by extension all forms of physical punishment really) was a disaster at every level

mental punishment though more likely to actually change someones behaviors and create an invisible institution that causes people to immediately draw the conclusion that they are going to prison if they commit a crime (an odd reaction to non-public executions was a public reaction that crime is inescapable) is simply an extension and one that leads to pointless suffering

If even after that they persist, execute them.

which has been shown to increase crime rates time and time again along with the numerous moral issues associated with it (giving up sick people, executing innocents, state killing)

Ther are merits to all systems, and detriments. I strongly believe a combination is best because none of them are even remotely perfect.

no there is not, how about we let the field of psychiatry have a play with people who commit crime

I don't see why. Being dead doesn't seem that unpleasant, and the actual death has been sanitised my modern medical practises.

deprivation of the right to live and mental agony of being on death row

along with all the mess ups where those executed die agonizing deaths

There are cultural differences at work, there. You're not making an apples-to-apples comparison.

what is being talked about is beyond culture differences, unless of course we need to prove to you why female genital mutilation is wrong on a human race level or maybe that everyone is a potential murderer regardless of whatever group

And my point is that prisons aren't particularly uncomfortable, and the ways in which they are uncomfortable aren't well publicised.

but they are stealing mah taxes!!!11

If we tortured prisoners, and did so openly, I suspect potential criminals would be less willing to risk going there.

Abu Ghraib and Gitmo have shown otherwise

There are cultural differences at work, there. You're not making an apples-to-apples comparison.

You see the same differences between Canada and the US.


Canada doesn't have as harsh sentences or prisons as the U.S either so I'm not sure why that's particularly a defence. Besides, Norway still does a lot better than Canada.

There are cultural differences at work, there. You're not making an apples-to-apples comparison.

You see the same differences between Canada and the US.
Where are the crime rates higher, the US or Canada?
Where are the prisons more comfortable in general, the US or Canada?

You have yet to show that the comfort of a prison has an effect on the deterrence of prison. I don't think it has a noteworthy general effect.

And my point is that prisons aren't particularly uncomfortable, and the ways in which they are uncomfortable aren't well publicised.

If we tortured prisoners, and did so openly, I suspect potential criminals would be less willing to risk going there.
I don't think so. After all, the prison rape / "Oz" myth is prevalent in the US without having a noticeable effect on the crime rates, countries where corporal punishment and torture are employed still may have a high crime rate, while you see a lower rate in many countries with a more "comfortable" type of punishment.

So you should provide something to back up your ideas, because I don't see you making much sense by your arguments alone.

For that, you will have to provide a source. I do not believe there is significantly fewer men per 1000s in Europe than there is in the US.

While you're at it you can get the sources for all the other locations.

YOUNG men, Seathorn. The issue is YOUNG men. Look up the median ages of each region yourself, it's not hard.

Numerous studies have correlated crime with the population of young single men, not the total male population.

Read chart: male population %, age 15-19

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_mal_pop_age_151_of_the_tot-population-age-15-19-total

Consider overall "danger level" of each nation.

Note, unsafe nations at the top, sane places like Norway, Japan, Belguim at the bottom, midrange places (US) at the middle. The fit isn't perfect, but you will NOT find a better correlation of any demographic, anywhere.

It really is this simple. Lots of young males hanging around is a bad thing for a nation.

Read chart: male population %, age 15-19

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_mal_pop_age_151_of_the_tot-population-age-15-19-total

Consider overall "danger level" of each nation.

Note, unsafe nations at the top, sane places like Norway, Japan, Belguim at the bottom, midrange places (US) at the middle. The fit isn't perfect, but you will NOT find a better correlation of any demographic, anywhere.

It really is this simple. Lots of young males hanging around is a bad thing for a nation.

There's a much more logical reason than the one you're suggesting. The nations at the top are poor (poor countries are generally more dangerous) and therefore have low life expectancy. Low life expectancy = less people over a certain age = more 15-19 year olds as a %.

The Unitied States isn't really in the midrange, it's more toward the bottom. Certainly nothing in those numbers that, even accepting your logic, would suggest 1 in 100 Americans being locked up.

YOUNG men, Seathorn. The issue is YOUNG men. Look up the median ages of each region yourself, it's not hard.

Numerous studies have correlated crime with the population of young single men, not the total male population.

Seeing as how you have failed to provide a "Young men per 1000s" statistic, I will take it that you're pulling numbers of your ass?

You said it yourself, it's not That hard. So go do it. You made the claim. You back it up.

edit: And now that I see you have, are you honestly telling me that 0.6% more young men in a population is going to cause 4x the murders? That's ridiculous.

Oh yeah, this one is interesting: Murders by youth per capita. (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_com_by_you_per_cap-murders-committed-youths-per-capita)

Notice how the youth in the US disproportionally murders people, compared to the youth of japan. Japan has roughly 2.5% male youths. the US has roughly 3.6% male youths.

The US is an exception. If you live there, no wonder you think young men are responsible.

Read chart: male population %, age 15-19

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_mal_pop_age_151_of_the_tot-population-age-15-19-total

Consider overall "danger level" of each nation.

Note, unsafe nations at the top, sane places like Norway, Japan, Belguim at the bottom, midrange places (US) at the middle. The fit isn't perfect, but you will NOT find a better correlation of any demographic, anywhere.

It really is this simple. Lots of young males hanging around is a bad thing for a nation.

Then China is in for some real trouble soon.