NationStates Jolt Archive

I just got back from a trip to Poland, that included visiting Auschwitz.

I found it really weird. I knew I could do nothing, yet it was so wrong it needed fighting, it felt really weird.

I cried when I saw some of the Exhibits.

Especially the Baby Clothes. They clearly showed the babies had had horrible lives as well as horrible deaths.

Anyone else been / is going?

What do you think?

And What to do with Deniers?

Ignore the deniers.

As to the rest, my fiance would love to visit Poland and tour it! I would as well. It is the reason why I am totally against genocide and why we should enforce the Genocide Convention.

I want to go - just from a historical point of view. It feels like something everybody has to do at one point in their lives, not out of any gross rubbernecking desires, just out of the same desire that sends people flocking to Ground Zero, perhaps to pay respect to those who lost their lives there.

However I feel that if I went there I would just be too upset. Just thinking about the place and others like it makes me sad, actually seeing it firsthand would be awful.

Ignore the deniers.

As to the rest, my fiance would love to visit Poland and tour it! I would as well. It is the reason why I am totally against genocide and why we should enforce the Genocide Convention.

But they're the people who will try it again! (or will cause...)

Genocide Convention?

But they're the people who will try it again! (or will cause...)

Genocide Convention?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention

I just got back from a trip to Poland, that included visiting Auschwitz.
LFA Project?
I cried when I saw some of the Exhibits.

Especially the Baby Clothes. They clearly showed the babies had had horrible lives as well as horrible deaths.
The room full of hair was the worst for me. Still had bows and plaits in some of them.

If even being on Stormfront makes me feel depressed about humanity, I don't want to know what that would do to me.

Sorry, but I'll pass.

I've been too a few concentration camp memorial things but never Auschwitz

I don't really get the appeal myself

And What to do with Deniers?

Use them as a solution to world hunger?

I went to Poland for a week as part of a Jewish youth program spending a semester in Israel. While there, we visited Majdanek concentration camp, Auschwitz-Birkenau, the remains of the Warsaw ghetto, and a mass grave outside of Tykochin, a village with a formerly large Jewish population.
All of these places have a certain uniqueness about them in terms of indeniability. For example, Majdanek is much more visceral than Auschwitz. The site is not as well-preserved or museum-like as either of the camps in Oswiecim. There is however, an enormous pile of human ash discovered by the Soviets that is hundreds of thousands of cubic feet. Birkenau is indeniable simply because of the enormous scale on which is was built. The trip was one of the most terrible and powerful experiences of my life. To the deniers, I can only say: go. Go there and see the destruction which humans can wreak. And we also must remember the quote: "The opposite of love isn't hate; it's indifference".

Never again. :(

And What to do with Deniers?

Entomb them in elephant dung, transport the dung to the Sahara desert, and let it dry naturally and solidify to become as hard as stone.

Use them as a solution to world hunger?

Soylent Green FTW!

I just got back from a trip to Poland, that included visiting Auschwitz.

I found it really weird. I knew I could do nothing, yet it was so wrong it needed fighting, it felt really weird.

I cried when I saw some of the Exhibits.

Especially the Baby Clothes. They clearly showed the babies had had horrible lives as well as horrible deaths.

Anyone else been / is going?

What do you think?

And What to do with Deniers?

Oh dear, I don´t think I could stomach visiting a concentration camp. Just the thought of seeing where thousands of souls met their end truly upsets me. And to think about babies, little beings that were born in such a place and just because they were marked, didn´t had a chance, and were sent into the gas chambers and burned at those giant ovens... My eyes are tearing. I do think you have strong will, and even so, you say you cried, from visiting Auschwitz. Auschwitz... the very name chills me.:(

I'm not sure I could ever do it. I cried at the Holocaust memorial in Boston, and in my Literature of the Holocaust class at uni we watched Nacht Und Nebel and I about sobbed. I watched the whole movie with tears just flooding down my face. I don't think I need to be there to understand--but I think it's important that it is preserved and remembered, forever.

Oh dear, I don´t think I could stomach visiting a concentration camp. Just the thought of seeing where thousands of souls met their end truly upsets me. And to think about babies, little beings that were born in such a place and just because they were marked, didn´t had a chance, and were sent into the gas chambers and burned at those giant ovens... My eyes are tearing. I do think you have strong will, and even so, you say you cried, from visiting Auschwitz. Auschwitz... the very name chills me.:(

Meh, wouldn't really bother me...
Now if I was transported back in time and had to visit Auschwitz while it was operational, that would bother me.

And we also must remember the quote: "The opposite of love isn't hate; it's indifference".

"History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people."

Good. We need to remember the horrors of the past so we won't repeat them.

I just got back from a trip to Poland, that included visiting Auschwitz.

I found it really weird. I knew I could do nothing, yet it was so wrong it needed fighting, it felt really weird.

I cried when I saw some of the Exhibits.

Especially the Baby Clothes. They clearly showed the babies had had horrible lives as well as horrible deaths.

Anyone else been / is going?

What do you think?

And What to do with Deniers?

I haven't been to Auschwitz, but i've visited the London Holocaust Museum, and that was pretty sobering, and in a strange way it emptied the soul.
As for the deniers, if there are any, they should visit it and see the evidence for themselves, and then give them a kick for being so stupid.

Meh, wouldn't really bother me...
Now if I was transported back in time and had to visit Auschwitz while it was operational, that would bother me.

I still can´t think of visiting a concentration camp. Seriously, I think I´ll hear echoes from the past...

I haven't been to Auschwitz, but i've visited the London Holocaust Museum, and that was pretty sobering, and in a strange way it emptied the soul.
As for the deniers, if there are any, they should visit it and see the evidence for themselves, and then give them a kick for being so stupid.

If there are any? Mhij, there are many of them but I agree that they should visit it. If not London, the D.C. Holocaust museum was a good experience.

If there are any? Mhij, there are many of them but I agree that they should visit it. If not London, the D.C. Holocaust museum was a good experience.

why would anyone deny the holocaust? i don't understand this.

The room full of hair was the worst for me. Still had bows and plaits in some of them.

I've never visited any of the concentration camps, and I'm fairly detached about human suffering in general, but there were two things which really brought it home to me: the first was reading the testimony of a camp-guard, and learning that some of the victims guessed what was happening but didn't make a fuss to avoid scaring the children; the second was seeing a collection of photographs taken by one of the guards which showed the staff of the camp talking, eating, laughing and generally acting like completely normal people, even though a train had arrived only a few days before and another was due the day after.

The deniers would accuse "teh eb1l j00z" of building the concentration camps after World War II. Yes, they are that stupid. Thank God idiots like that are a minority (not a small enough minority, unfortunately; hell, even 1 would be too many). I wish we could all dump them in Antarctica, or something. They would love it there. It's cold and very white.

why would anyone deny the holocaust? i don't understand this.

For the same reason some people still believe The Protocols of the Elders of Zion are not a hoax: They're stupid.

why would anyone deny the holocaust? i don't understand this.

Find a copy of Michael Shermer's Why People Believe Weird Things: three whole chapters are dedicated to the origins of the Holocaust Denial movement and the background of its main personalities.

I had a pretty hard time reading several bio's of Camp Guards, and Prisoners but the hardest thing is having a Great-Grandfather who was an SS officer on the E. Front who was killed during the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising

why would anyone deny the holocaust? i don't understand this.

That is a very good question. No one understands why they deny it.

If there are any? Mhij, there are many of them but I agree that they should visit it. If not London, the D.C. Holocaust museum was a good experience.

The D.C museum doesn't hold a candle to the genuine Holocaust memorials (as in, the concentration camps).

It's better than nothing, but unfortunately just doesn't give you the sense of despair that the camps do. Walking around in the camps, you know that people died there and that they were treated terribly.

why would anyone deny the holocaust? i don't understand this.

Wait, deny it, like, saying it never happened?!:eek: Because 6 million Jewish people and from other ethnicities met their doom on the concentration camps. That´s a very hard and difficult thing to deny.

Wait, deny it, like, saying it never happened?!:eek: Because 6 million Jewish people and from other ethnicities met their doom on the concentration camps. That´s a very hard and difficult thing to deny.

Never understimate the power of bigotry or stupidity.

That is a very good question. No one understands why they deny it.

I understand why. It's a little thing called idiocy.

Wait, deny it, like, saying it never happened?!:eek: Because 6 million Jewish people and from other ethnicities met their doom on the concentration camps. That´s a very hard and difficult thing to deny.

Never talk to my dad then...

Never understimate the power of bigotry or stupidity.

Of course... but... dang... going so far as denying something so pivotal and tragic to so many...:( It really disappoints...

I still can´t think of visiting a concentration camp. Seriously, I think I´ll hear echoes from the past...

Understandable, I wouldn't go just because (for me anyways) I don't see the point of doing it.

Of course... but... dang... going so far as denying something so pivotal and tragic to so many...:( It really disappoints...

We've even had a few Holocaust deniers on NSG before. Fortunately, they're long gone, having either been permabanned or left of their own volition.

We've even had a few Holocaust deniers on NSG before. Fortunately, they're long gone, having either been permabanned or left of their own volition.

Thank the gods for that.:D

Understandable, I wouldn't go just because (for me anyways) I don't see the point of doing it.

Understandable too.

Thank the gods for that.:D

Amen.

im living in germany and i think holocaust is something that belongs to the historybooks. most of the people who experienced what happened are dead as well as their closest. didnt the last veteran of wwII of britain or france die this weekend? lot of people do still have prejudices just cuz ur german. not the lederhosen and beer ones but that ur a nazi. i mean there are still nazis but who would know it when u see one. i never been to auschwitz and i know its a terrible thing that happened but i dont wanna be blamed for it or what a.h. did. dealing with this horrible kinda past maybe difficult but the my generation has enough i can tell u

Wait, deny it, like, saying it never happened?!:eek: Because 6 million Jewish people and from other ethnicities met their doom on the concentration camps. That´s a very hard and difficult thing to deny.

There are three key points which they deny:

1. That the Nazis intended to commit genocide.

2. That there was an extermination programme using gas chambers and crematoria in place.

3. That five to six million Jews died.

For example, while a Denier wouldn't claim that Auschwitz didn't exist or that nobody died there, they would argue that the gas chambers were used for processes such as delousing; that the victims died from malnutrition, overwork and disease rather than being systematically slaughtered; and that the number of Jews killed wasn't as high as is usually reported.

We've even had a few Holocaust deniers on NSG before. Fortunately, they're long gone, having either been permabanned or left of their own volition.

Andaras is still around.

Andaras is still around.

He's a Holocaust denier?

There are three key points which they deny:

1. That the Nazis intended to commit genocide.

2. That there was an extermination programme using gas chambers and crematoria in place.

3. That five to six million Jews died.

For example, while a Denier wouldn't claim that Auschwitz didn't exist or that nobody died there, they would argue that the gas chambers were used for processes such as delousing; that the victims died from malnutrition, overwork and disease rather than being systematically slaughtered; and that the number of Jews killed wasn't as high as is usually reported.

That´s sad. I can´t believe some people would go as far as denying such a thing. I bet they tend to be Nazi sympathizers...:(

im living in germany and i think holocaust is something that belongs to the historybooks. most of the people who experienced what happened are dead as well as their closest. didnt the last veteran of wwII of britain or france die this weekend? lot of people do still have prejudices just cuz ur german. not the lederhosen and beer ones but that ur a nazi. i mean there are still nazis but who would know it when u see one. i never been to auschwitz and i know its a terrible thing that happened but i dont wanna be blamed for it or what a.h. did. dealing with this horrible kinda past maybe difficult but the my generation has enough i can tell u

There are several holocaust survivors still around and if we do not remember the holocaust, it is bound to happen again. As a member of the younger generation, I will hold their memory as well as fight genocide wherever it is occuring. Hence my support for the Genocide Convention.

For the same reason some people still believe The Protocols of the Elders of Zion are not a hoax: They're stupid.
Hmmm, but wouldn't stupid people still be able to be swayed by the overwhelming evidence?
Find a copy of Michael Shermer's Why People Believe Weird Things: three whole chapters are dedicated to the origins of the Holocaust Denial movement and the background of its main personalities.
Interesting.
That is a very good question. No one understands why they deny it.
I mean it's like, well here's an example:
EDIT: See later post, my example was flawed.
Wait, deny it, like, saying it never happened?!:eek: Because 6 million Jewish people and from other ethnicities met their doom on the concentration camps. That´s a very hard and difficult thing to deny.
yes, many Left-wing politicians, socialists, any opposing political parties, Jews, Disabled people, people considered "weak" and anyone who the Nazis didn't like were systematically slaughtered. This is supported in many historical books, many eye witnesses, photos of the bodies, mass graves, families missing members are all supporting evidence to this crime. How anyone can deny this is beyond my conception of mental ability.

He's a Holocaust denier?

He claims it was not as bad as we perpetrate it to be.

He's a Holocaust denier?

I deny the Holocaust?

Hmmm, but wouldn't stupid people still be able to be swayed by the overwhelming evidence?

Interesting.

I mean it's like, well here's an example:
A woman has died, her husband saw her die, she was attacked. He Goes to tell his son, he takes him to the funeral and they see the body. The father then gives a witness account of how she died to the police, they determine she died from a strangers knife, the son says, "But i don't believe you, i think my dad did it."
The deniers are the son.

yes, many Left-wing politicians, socialists, any opposing political parties, Jews, Disabled people, people considered "weak" and anyone who the Nazis didn't like were systematically slaughtered. This is supported in many historical books, many eye witnesses, photos of the bodies, mass graves, families missing members are all supporting evidence to this crime. How anyone can deny this is beyond my conception of mental ability.

I see. Once again, those who deny it are sad and deluded.

That´s sad. I can´t believe some people would go as far as denying such a thing. I bet they tend to be Nazi sympathizers...:(

Most are.

I mean it's like, well here's an example:
A woman has died, her husband saw her die, she was attacked. He Goes to tell his son, he takes him to the funeral and they see the body. The father then gives a witness account of how she died to the police, they determine she died from a strangers knife, the son says, "But i don't believe you, i think my dad did it."
The deniers are the son.

Come up with a better example because the father could very well have done it.

I deny the Holocaust?

I don't know. Do you? I'm not the one who claimed you did.

I don't know. Do you? I'm not the one who claimed you did.
No, I do not.

No, I do not.

Oh, okay.

In english my class just finished reading the book NIGHT and its was a very good book.But it was like a special edition with other stuff in the back such as short stories and poems. One particular story caught my eye about the Cambodia genocide. Im sure most of you know about Pol Pots reign? Many people in the western world don't and its a surprise because twice the lives were taken away than the jewish holocaust. Why when people always say "Never again"! I can't but feel little...sad I guess you say.I mean when we say "never again" what the hell are we going to do about Darfur right now?

In english my class just finished reading the book NIGHT and its was a very good book.But it was like a special edition with other stuff in the back such as short stories and poems. One particular story caught my eye about the Cambodia genocide. Im sure most of you know about Pol Pots reign? Many people in the western world don't and its a surprise because twice the lives were taken away than the jewish holocaust. Why when people always say "Never again"! I can't but feel little...sad I guess you say.I mean when we say "never again" what the hell are we going to do about Darfur right now?

No.

The Holocaust killed 6 million Jews.

Democratic Kampuchea killed 1.5-2 million Cambodians.

Come up with a better example because the father could very well have done it.

okay i admit that was a bit flawed i'll try again.
A woman has died, her husband saw her die, she was attacked by another man who was known to hate her with a passion.
The father goes to tell his son, he takes him to the funeral and they see the body, the forensics say the cause of death was frantic stabbing.
The father then gives a witness account of how she died to the police, there are also deep footprints in the mud to support his claim. The police determine she died from the strangers knife, which the stranger had on him and his fingerprints are on the knife, the stranger also admits to murder. The son says, "But i don't believe you, i think my dad did it."
The deniers are the son.
is that better?

No.

The Holocaust killed 6 million Jews.

Democratic Kampuchea killed 1.5-2 million Cambodians.

Oh, wait I think I was thinking of Stalins reign. Which was around 20 mil wasn't it?

In english my class just finished reading the book NIGHT and its was a very good book.But it was like a special edition with other stuff in the back such as short stories and poems. One particular story caught my eye about the Cambodia genocide. Im sure most of you know about Pol Pots reign? Many people in the western world don't and its a surprise because twice the lives were taken away than the jewish holocaust. Why when people always say "Never again"! I can't but feel little...sad I guess you say.I mean when we say "never again" what the hell are we going to do about Darfur right now?

No.

The Holocaust killed 6 million Jews.

Democratic Kampuchea killed 1.5-2 million Cambodians.

What Magdha stated. Sorry Altackia but more people died in the Holocaust than in Cambodia!

In english my class just finished reading the book NIGHT and its was a very good book.But it was like a special edition with other stuff in the back such as short stories and poems. One particular story caught my eye about the Cambodia genocide. Im sure most of you know about Pol Pots reign? Many people in the western world don't and its a surprise because twice the lives were taken away than the jewish holocaust. Why when people always say "Never again"! I can't but feel little...sad I guess you say.I mean when we say "never again" what the hell are we going to do about Darfur right now?

Precisely, we must remember the Holocaust so we can do something about the situation in Darfur. History should teach us. And it makes me sad that some people can, calmly, deny something like the massacre of 6 million Jews. This very fact should help us prevent more human losses in Darfur...

Oh, wait I think I was thinking of Stalins reign. Which was around 20 mil wasn't it?

Dude, watch it. AP, Stalin´s ghost, is around...:eek:

Oh, wait I think I was thinking of Stalins reign. Which was around 20 mil wasn't it?

And some say that is conservative :eek:

Precisely, we must remember the Holocaust so we can do something about the situation in Darfur. History should teach us. And it makes me sad that some people can, calmly, deny something like the massacre of 6 million Jews. This very fact should help us prevent more human losses in Darfur...

I may be only a kid but I still can do something. We had to write an essay about Darfur and whats going on there right now and hopefully my english teacher will be able to make this P.S.A for our school and community.

That is a very good question. No one understands why they deny it.

Yes we do, it's just not easy to explain as each denier has their own complex motivations. David Cole is an ethnic Jew and a provocateur: in the past he's actively campaigned for the ACLU, the Communist Workers Party, the Heritage Foundation (a Conservative think-tank), the Anti-Defamation League and the Jewish Defense League (!!!); sometimes even advocating for contradictory causes at the same time. He's a provocateur (noted for having been invited to a white-supremacist dinner and taking a black-woman along as his date), a contrarian and something of a pretentious prat: he sees himself as being above the petty ideologies of lesser men and seems to be in the Denial business largely for his own amusement.

On the other hand you've got Ernst Zündel, who is a German Nationalist and an apologist for Nazism: his Denial is motivated by the view that the Holocaust is "Anti-German Hate Propaganda" and that it distracts people from the 'positive aspects of Hitler's regime'.

David Irving, on the other hand, seems to be motivated mainly by profit: his relatively moderate denial (that Hitler had been aware of the Holocaust) alienated the mainstream audience, and as a result he began to rely on the Deniers to buy his books and attend his lectures, leading to a more extreme message which seems to have been driven by greed rather than evidence or genuine conviction.

Others are motivated by anti-Semitism or extreme anti-Zionism. There is a large range of beliefs and motivations in the Holocaust Denial movement, just as there is a large range of beliefs and motivations in the Creationist movement, but that doesn't mean we don't understand them.

Dude, watch it. AP, Stalin´s ghost, is around...:eek:

ROFLMAO


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The Jewish side took up the majority of the Holocaust, but it's important also to remember the others who were killed, namely the Roma; Soviets, particularly prisoners of war; ethnic Poles; other Slavic people; the disabled; gay men; and political dissidents such as Communists, liberal and social-democrats, as well as religious dissidents, such as Jehovah's witnesses.

I may be only a kid but I still can do something. We had to write an essay about Darfur and whats going on there right now and hopefully my english teacher will be able to make this P.S.A for our school and community.

Yes, you can do something. Learn from History and don´t become one of those who deny this sort of thing.

ROFLMAO


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*rolls around laughing*

The Jewish side took up the majority of the Holocaust, but it's important also to remember the others who were killed, namely the Roma; Soviets, particularly prisoners of war; ethnic Poles; other Slavic people; the disabled; gay men; and political dissidents such as Communists, liberal and social-democrats, as well as religious dissidents, such as Jehovah's witnesses.

Which is why it´s preposterous to me that some deny the Holocaust. Because it affected millions, besides the Jews.

That´s sad. I can´t believe some people would go as far as denying such a thing. I bet they tend to be Nazi sympathizers...:(

Some certainly are (Ernst Zündel for example), but others aren't. It's quite an interesting movement from a Sociological point of view, as it combines groups who would normally be at each other's throats but seem to have struck a temporary peace, rather like the Christian Creationists and Muslim Creationists who team up to attack science (I've used the Creationist analogy before because there's not really any other movement which is comparable to Holocaust Denial in terms of sheer obliviousness to evidence.

Some certainly are (Ernst Zündel for example), but others aren't. It's quite an interesting movement from a Sociological point of view, as it combines groups who would normally be at each other's throats but seem to have struck a temporary peace, rather like the Christian Creationists and Muslim Creationists who team up to attack science (I've used the Creationist analogy before because there's not really any other movement which is comparable to Holocaust Denial in terms of sheer obliviousness to evidence.

I see. Well, this world´s certainly upside down. But I guess some would always try to justify the unjustifiable.

In english my class just finished reading the book NIGHT and its was a very good book.But it was like a special edition with other stuff in the back such as short stories and poems. One particular story caught my eye about the Cambodia genocide. Im sure most of you know about Pol Pots reign? Many people in the western world don't and its a surprise because twice the lives were taken away than the jewish holocaust. Why when people always say "Never again"! I can't but feel little...sad I guess you say.I mean when we say "never again" what the hell are we going to do about Darfur right now?

I certainly agree with you that other genocides have to be remembered, and that we're failing in its duty towards the residents of Sudan, but there are other reasons why the Holocaust tends to be emphasised in the Western world:

Most importantly, most Genocides tend to be seen as being committed against brown people, often by other brown people, and always a long way away from us in Europe/North America. We get complacent and start to think that, however bad genocide is, it's not something that will ever directly affect us. The Holocaust is invaluable in disabusing people of that notion, reminding them that mass-murder can happen anyway, against any group, and that our necks are on the line as well if we aren't consistent in opposing it.

ahhh my eyes, thread broken!
*thread starts to sink*

ROFLMAO


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Please could you put spaces between these addresses, you've broken the thread! :p

ahhh my eyes, thread broken!
*thread starts to sink*

:eek:

Please could you put spaces between these addresses, you've broken the thread! :pMight want to turn on images.

There's only a couple of holocaust deniers around here as regulars, apart from the usual one-post wonders; I usually try to remember them when the polls come along.

There's Sel Appa, I believe, and United Berieland [Sic] usually argues it was exaggerated to some degree. There's a few others whom I forget now, but they usually appear when a poll is created in a thread like these.

I certainly agree with you that other genocides have to be remembered, and that we're failing in its duty towards the residents of Sudan, but there are other reasons why the Holocaust tends to be emphasised in the Western world:

Most importantly, most Genocides tend to be seen as being committed against brown people, often by other brown people, and always a long way away from us in Europe/North America. We get complacent and start to think that, however bad genocide is, it's not something that will ever directly affect us. The Holocaust is invaluable in disabusing people of that notion, reminding them that mass-murder can happen anyway, against any group, and that our necks are on the line as well if we aren't consistent in opposing it.No. It's just that other genocides don't have a lobby.

I don't think it's good to visit these places, in the same kind of way it isn't good to dig around in people's tombs. I like to give people their peace, especially since they had enough crap in life to deal with. Remember them, but not by poking around the piles of ash that were there bodies, or poking your head in the ovens that cremated what was left.

With holocaust denial, I don't really understand it academically. The historical records clearly show this event happened. We have eye wetness accounts, photographic images showing the places in operation, the remains of the buildings, human remains... it's pretty conclusive.

What I do not understand is why this event so captures world attention and sympathy when other genocides do not. Millions of Chinese were massacred. Millions of Cambodians, hundreds of thousands of Indonesians, Rwandans... All genocide is unjustifiable, whoever does it, against whoever. End of.

What I dislike is anyone's suffering to be politicised in such a way as to justify another despicable act, and the reason I am highly skeptical of some governments being so keen to highlight this genocide and forget about others is because of their desire to manipulate events (or the perception of events) in Israel, and the middle east at large.

What I do not understand is why this event so captures world attention and sympathy when other genocides do not. Millions of Chinese were massacred. Millions of Cambodians, hundreds of thousands of Indonesians, Rwandans... All genocide is unjustifiable, whoever does it, against whoever. End of.


It's been pointed out before, but I'll cover it again. The Western world, because face it, they are the ones who make the biggest noise about that particular genocide, gives lots of attention to the Holocaust because it was committed by "civilized" peoples, meaning white people, against other white people.

Darfur, Nanking, Cambodia, Vietnam, all these players where hundreds of thousands to millions of people died in systematic slaughters are all conveniently ignored because its done by and against, from a mass European/American social perspective, un-people.

No. It's just that other genocides don't have a lobby.The Armenian Genocide has a lobby.

It's been pointed out before, but I'll cover it again. The Western world, because face it, they are the ones who make the biggest noise about that particular genocide, gives lots of attention to the Holocaust because it was committed by "civilized" peoples, meaning white people, against other white people.

Darfur, Nanking, Cambodia, Vietnam, all these players where hundreds of thousands to millions of people died in systematic slaughters are all conveniently ignored because its done by and against, from a mass European/American social perspective, un-people.

It was a rhetorical statement really. I do understnad this, but the degree that peope go along with it and acept it never ceases to amaze me. However I would not underestimate the political convienience behind this silence, and the sheer volume of the holocaust rememberence, when it comes to interfering in the mideast.

Boo fricken hoo. I don't care what happens to anybody any more.

The Armenian Genocide has a lobby.Not loud enough it seems.

Boo fricken hoo. I don't care what happens to anybody any more.

So you do not care if a genocide occurs?

Not loud enough it seems.

Well the Armenians managed to get the US Congress to declare it a genocide.

So you do not care if a genocide occurs?

Nah, not really. My family are from a country that was genocided, and nobody cares. So, fuck humanity.

Nah, not really. My family are from a country that was genocided, and nobody cares. So, fuck humanity.

So instead of doing all you can to fight genocide, you would let it continue. Yea...way to ignore history :rolleyes:

So instead of doing all you can to fight genocide, you would let it continue. Yea...way to ignore history :rolleyes:

Sure, why not?

Sure, why not?

Because by letting genocide continue, you are ignoring the suffering that your family's nation was on the receiving end of genocide. Go out there and fight against it. We have to do all we can to get this world to stand up and to stop the madness.

Because by letting genocide continue, you are ignoring the suffering that your family's nation was on the receiving end of genocide. Go out there and fight against it. We have to do all we can to get this world to stand up and to stop the madness.

Well, I guess I'm kinda hoping that the perpetrators will get genocided and it'll all have come full circle.

It scares me that so many "ordinary people" took part and saw this as... ordinary day-to-day business :(

http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,973107,00.jpg

It scares me that so many "ordinary people" took part and saw this as... ordinary day-to-day business :(

Yah, so? Most humans would. Milgram experiment.

The tragedy about the holocaust has a similar aspect of the tragedy in Liberia. This is a bit long winded but it will get to a point.
Liberia was established by freed slaves from the US. Basically they had 2 options
1. Being a slave really sucked. We will make this country a utopia where every person, from us freed slaves, to the natives will leave in peace and harmony.
2. Being a slaved sucked. Now it's time to be top dog, and make the natives be our slaves in all but name.
Option 2 was tragically the option taken. The result, decades later is the bloodshed happening now, as the poor rebel against the rich, and the country slid in to lawlessness.

Post holocaust option for Israel.
1. The holocaust sucked. Never again.
2. The holocaust sucked. That kind of crap can never be allowed to happen again... to us. Anyone looks at us wrong, especially a Palestinian, we'll go all genocidal on his ass.

I am not anti - semitic (a stupid term as many of the Arabs are semites, but anyway), nor a holocaust denier (that's just plain illogical). I am anti-Israel due to their brutal foreign policy, and internal policies to non jews within Israel.
Before you get all ready to jump on me. Look at the definition of genocide. It also includes the deliberation destruction of a culture. Israel has tried, and is well on their way, to achieving that.

Well, I guess I'm kinda hoping that the perpetrators will get genocided and it'll all have come full circle.

That's just as disgusting.

That's just as disgusting.

Meh. They started it.

*snip*

So you should be against the brutal reigns of most of the Middle East then. I mean...look at the way they oppress people, especially women and non-muslims.

Meh. They started it.

That's no excuse to hope for a genocide.

Yah, so? Most humans would. Milgram experiment.

You make me even more sad - and not only for humanity. :(

That's no excuse to hope for a genocide.

...

Yeah it is.

You make me even more sad - and not only for humanity. :(

MILGRAM EXPERIMENT. Read it. The majority of people follow orders that are given to them by an authority figure.

MILGRAM EXPERIMENT. Read it. The majority of people follow orders that are given to them by an authority figure.

You still make me sad, and so does humanity. Even if you're repeating yourself needlessly in caps. :(

why would anyone deny the holocaust? i don't understand this.

Many opponents of Israel and the Zionist movement point to the "faked Holocaust" as the justification for Israel's creation. Israel was created in 1948 by a majority UN resolution, and was set up on what had previously been British land.
The problem with the argument that the Holocaust as the reason for the creation of Israel is that Zionists such as Theodor Herzl had already been working for decades and making contacts and deals in order to create a Jewish state in the Middle East.

...

Yeah it is.

No it is not.

So you should be against the brutal reigns of most of the Middle East then. I mean...look at the way they oppress people, especially women and non-muslims.
Um... Yes. What's your point? Is it the classically poor debating technique of wanting to make someone look stupid, and thus their argument, by trying to label the poster something offensive, such as a racist?

Read what I wrote, don't assume unrelated things. I dislike no individual race. I can distinguish between a race, and their government. I hate US and Israeli foreign policy. I do not hate Israelis or Americans.
If your a religious nut job who believes in holy war, which is the province of some Americans and Israelis (and some middle eastern people), then I'll probably dislike you. I will judge you by your actions, deeds and words, not because you come from a certain country or have a certain look.

Unfortunately you'll need to put in more effort than
"Look, the Jew hater loves the Muslims".
My post is based on observed events, not racism.

I still can´t think of visiting a concentration camp. Seriously, I think I´ll hear echoes from the past...

I could swear I heard cries as I went in the gas chamber at Aushchwitz, faint but distinct. And then walking by the railway at Auschwitz-Birkenau I heard Steam safty valves hiss. That was my imagination, and that scares me.

Entomb them in elephant dung, transport the dung to the Sahara desert, and let it dry naturally and solidify to become as hard as stone.

That is too nice for them. I say we just line them up and shot them. But then enters the question of are we no better than the nzais? I hate holocaust denial and wish it were non-existant but by doing away with people for having an idiotic opionon we don't like? Wouldn't we be bringing ourselves down to their level. Shouldn't we be taking the moral high ground here. I think we should just ignore them. They want attention so we shoudl starve them of it.

That is too nice for them. I say we just line them up and shot them. But then enters the question of are we no better than the nzais? I hate holocaust denial and wish it were non-existant but by doing away with people for having an idiotic opionon we don't like? Wouldn't we be bringing ourselves down to their level. Shouldn't we be taking the moral high ground here. I think we should just ignore them. They want attention so we shoudl starve them of it.

Or we could tell them to pack for an all-expense paid trip to Hawaii then dump them on South Georgia!

That isn't gonna work. They would be in paradise once they found their local kkk chapter(that is of course if you are refering to the state and not the country)(and before anyone jumps on me for stereotyping southerners, i realize they are not all like that. just the vocal ones are). No if we were going to drop them somewhere i say right smack dab in the middle of Jerusalem. See how well that works out for them...

Um... Yes. What's your point? Is it the classically poor debating technique of wanting to make someone look stupid, and thus their argument, by trying to label the poster something offensive, such as a racist?

Read what I wrote, don't assume unrelated things. I dislike no individual race. I can distinguish between a race, and their government. I hate US and Israeli foreign policy. I do not hate Israelis or Americans.
If your a religious nut job who believes in holy war, which is the province of some Americans and Israelis (and some middle eastern people), then I'll probably dislike you. I will judge you by your actions, deeds and words, not because you come from a certain country or have a certain look.

Unfortunately you'll need to put in more effort than
"Look, the Jew hater loves the Muslims".
My post is based on observed events, not racism.

Not everything Israel does is right but what are they supposed to do. Sit by quietly while Hamas fires Katyusha rockets at their people.

I should also point out that non-jews in Israel have more rights in Israel than non-muslims have in Muslim nations.

Also, there are non-jews in the cabinet, supreme court, as well as the Knesset.

That isn't gonna work. They would be in paradise once they found their local kkk chapter(that is of course if you are refering to the state and not the country)(and before anyone jumps on me for stereotyping southerners, i realize they are not all like that. just the vocal ones are). No if we were going to drop them somewhere i say right smack dab in the middle of Jerusalem. See how well that works out for them...

I was referring to the British Territory in the Southern Ocean. Major inhabitant: Penguins.

(that is of course if you are refering to the state and not the country)
I would assume he is referring to the ISLAND of South Georgia, which is halfway between the Falklands and Antarctica.

I was referring to the British Territory in the Southern Ocean. Major inhabitant: Penguins.

I would assume he is referring to the ISLAND of South Georgia, which is halfway between the Falklands and Antarctica.

Seems like it to me.

Seems like it to me.

To my mind that would help greatly. Would also work with Paedos, Terrorists, Stalinists, people who glorify Nazism / suicide / all other evil.

I would assume he is referring to the ISLAND of South Georgia, which is halfway between the Falklands and Antarctica.

Ifigured that out. When someone says South Georgia to me though I automatically think of southern Georgia in the United States and then the southern regions of the nation of Georgia in cneteral Asia

Ifigured that out. When someone says South Georgia to me though I automatically think of southern Georgia in the United States and then the southern regions of the nation of Georgia in cneteral Asia

Fair enough. It's a near uninhabited rock.

I could swear I heard cries as I went in the gas chamber at Aushchwitz, faint but distinct. And then walking by the railway at Auschwitz-Birkenau I heard Steam safty valves hiss. That was my imagination, and that scares me.

Echoes of the past. That place saw so much death and suffering I bet it´s very foundations are soaked with impressions of the past. Places become haunted, you know... And I´m not refering to the proverbial ghost...

Nah, not really. My family are from a country that was genocided, and nobody cares. So, fuck humanity.

Which country is that?

And if your family came from a country that experienced a genocide, then gives you all the more reason to stand up to genocide, IMO.

Are there any genocides currently happening besides darufr? i barely hear anything about darfur now so i am wondering what is going on.

Are there any genocides currently happening besides darufr? i barely hear anything about darfur now so i am wondering what is going on.

There's the widely-ignored genocide of the Hmong people in Laos.

So you should be against the brutal reigns of most of the Middle East then. I mean...look at the way they oppress people, especially women and non-muslims.

Three points:
Fish never said he/she was in favour of what certain governments in the middle east do (except Israel). Secondly, those governments actions in no way justify those of Israel. And thirdly, oppressing your citizens is different to genocide. Saudi Arabia oppresses women. It does not, however, commit genocide. Only an ignorant would assume that one automatically equals the other.

Which country is that?

Ukraine.

Ukraine.

Oh. :(

Did you lose any family there?

Oh. :(

Did you lose any family there?

Yeah, great uncles. My uncle was also separated from the rest of my family and has seen us once in the past sixty years.

Yeah, great uncles. My uncle was also separated from the rest of my family and has seen us once in the past sixty years.

My condolences. :(

Ukraine.
Oh, so your parents were kulaks then? They obviously deserved it, if not for slaughtering peasants to attack socialist agriculture, or for collaborating with the Nazi's.

Oh, so your parents were kulaks then? They obviously deserved it, if not for slaughtering peasants to attack socialist agriculture, or for collaborating with the Nazi's.

Nice flame. Ferrous Oxide, don't bother responding.

Well, I guess I'm kinda hoping that the perpetrators will get genocided and it'll all have come full circle.

An eye for an eye would make the whole world blind.

Echoes of the past. That place saw so much death and suffering I bet it´s very foundations are soaked with impressions of the past. Places become haunted, you know... And I´m not refering to the proverbial ghost...

I've never been one for mysticism or paranormal beliefs, but I always felt that buildings take a piece of everyone who spends time in them. For instance, my church had an old building we'd use for our Youth services. It had been up for a number of decades (it was the original building, actually). Recently they tore it down and replaced it with another building. This was to be expected, since it was over 50 years old and wasn't able to accommodate the needs anymore.

But it had a presence, you know? It had this sort of charm, like that warm feeling of hundreds of people having spent a lot of time there. Mostly good time, but even sort of comforting in the not-so good times. Nice stuff and all.

The new building, despite blowing it out of the water in almost every way, has none of that charm. It feels cold and lifeless. Well, not nearly as much now. But it did back then.

As subtle as those feelings were, I imagine the concentration camps were much the same thing in principle, but on a much grander scale (and in the opposite emotional direction). If I walked into one, I think I would expect an incredibly oppressive atmosphere, almost like I was being smothered.

For anyone who was there, am I close at all on that guess?

Oh, so your parents were kulaks then? They obviously deserved it, if not for slaughtering peasants to attack socialist agriculture, or for collaborating with the Nazi's.

...You're fucking kidding me, right? You actually just told a person that their parents deserved to be slaughtered just because the propaganda of the oh-so "glorious" Soviet Union, whose ass you apparently are incapable of not kissing, says so?

Frankly, this is just disgusting. And while I doubt it's the absolute worst you've ever said, it's got that nice personal touch that makes it repulsive, as well as you for uttering it.

Oh, so your parents were kulaks then? They obviously deserved it, if not for slaughtering peasants to attack socialist agriculture, or for collaborating with the Nazi's.

No, my GRANDPARENTS were peasants, who left that shit hole that you love so much because the Soviet government wouldn't allow them to grow food to support themselves.

No, my GRANDPARENTS were peasants, who left that shit hole that you love so much because the Soviet government wouldn't allow them to grow food to support themselves.
Typical bourgeois behavior, no sense of community, when you can't exploit for a buck you leave, why didn't they join the Kolkhoz?

Typical bourgeois behavior, no sense of community, when you can't exploit for a buck you leave, why didn't they join the Kolkhoz?

...

Are you fucking retarded? The USSR government issued an order stating that Ukrainians weren't to be allowed to grow food, in order to starve the nationalism out of the Ukrainians.

But then, the good socialist thing to do would have been to just starve to death for no good reason, right? Moron.

...

Are you fucking retarded? The USSR government issued an order stating that Ukrainians weren't to be allowed to grow food, in order to starve the nationalism out of the Ukrainians.

But then, the good socialist thing to do would have been to just starve to death for no good reason, right? Moron.

Your knowledge is incorrect, the Soviets decreed that private enterprise was banned, so that the kulaks would be expropriated and collective agriculture would be instilled. The only people who starved were the landlordist kulaks, who refused to join alongside the peasants equally in the commune, and in revenge slaughtered cattle for loosing the peasants as their serfs. The Ukrainian opposition to collectivization was motivated wholly by a pompus and elitist contempt for equality.

Typical bourgeois behavior, no sense of community, when you can't exploit for a buck you leave, why didn't they join the Kolkhoz?

What's your family background, Andaras?

What's your family background, Andaras?

My parents you mean?

Oh, so your parents were kulaks then? They obviously deserved it, if not for slaughtering peasants to attack socialist agriculture, or for collaborating with the Nazi's.

Your knowledge is incorrect, the Soviets decreed that private enterprise was banned, so that the kulaks would be expropriated and collective agriculture would be instilled. The only people who starved were the landlordist kulaks, who refused to join alongside the peasants equally in the commune, and in revenge slaughtered cattle for loosing the peasants as their serfs. The Ukrainian opposition to collectivization was motivated wholly by a pompus and elitist contempt for equality.

What crap do you read to come up with views like these?

You must shovel down Soviet propaganda. It must come in constantly through our eyes and ears and come out of your mouth and fingers...

Trollgaard, that's very close to flaming - please remember to attack the argument and not the poster.

Ferrous Oxide, that is flaming. I appreciate that this is an emotive subject and that the opposing debater is not the most polite or sensitive of individuals, but it remains incorrect to insult him; and insulting him will not help to alter his views. I have no reason to suspect that this is anything but an isolated instance in your case, and so shall not issue an official warning - but I'd like you to consider what you're posting before you post it. If you find you're too riled up to avoid insulting him (and it happens to everyone), it may be wise to leave the thread for a while. Do something you enjoy instead.

Andaras Prime, I am seeing no change whatsoever in your behaviour, despite earlier urging you to alter the way you debate with other posters. You are not, currently, impressing me with your debating skills, and I would like you to remember that you are on a very short leash at this point. You have used up almost all of your chances, and as you seem to enjoy posting here, it would be wise of you to alter your behaviour sufficiently to continue to do so.

~ Tsar the Mod.

My parents you mean?

Historically. For instance, my ancestors were refugees from the Irish potato famine, coming to Oz from Tipperary and County Clare in the 1840s and 1850s.

So I had an Irish Catholic upbringing which means I've inherited a strong sense of social justice but have rejected some of the conservative social values (ie on abortion etc).

~ Tsar the Mod.

I love that. A commie got told up by a Tsar :D

Hydesland, if you will observe post #135 (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=13544656&postcount=135), a short way above your own, you will observe me cautioning posters about flaming. This also applies to you; you've been about since 2005, you have over 8,000 posts, you should know better.

The part of your post that is objectionable is "you would not have failed at life so fucking hard". The rest is merely attacking the argument, albeit using a surfeit of expletives which do nothing but detract from your argument. What I said to Ferrous Oxide remains true for you; if you find yourself too upset to debate reasonably, leave the thread. Go do something else for a while.

At this point I really have no other option but to officially warn you for flaming. You've had warnings for spamming in the past, but this is an unfortunate turn I'd not like to see repeated.

~ Tsar the Mod.