NationStates Jolt Archive

A couple of interesting things happened yesterday relating to personal apperance, peoples reactions, and "counter-reactions".

The first incident was on the train, there was a young woman wearing a tight, white thin to the point of being nearly see-through T-shirt over a bright red bra. I noticed her shoot several guys dirty looks for checking her out.
Later, after work, I went out for dinner, where the other two incidents happened. First, the people at the table across from mine commented rather loudly in Japanese on my facial hair. Then, one of the people at the next table said to the other "oh, there's a foreigner behind us." Her companion lifted the dividing curtain between the tables to have a gawk. Both people got dirty looks.
Finally, earlier today, someone posted in my 40th birthday thread a comment in jest that now an "appreciative look" will be taken as a leer.

So, all together, yesterdays events have me thinking about how people react to others apperances and how people react to others reactions.

As for the first incident, I was reminded of a comment in a half remembered essay by Camile Paglia 20 years ago, to the effect that women should be able to go topless in public, but that they shouldn't be surprised at how others react.
(That reminds me of something from a number years ago, that's related to this subject. One of my female students went to the French Riviera on vacation. She went to a topless beach with a friend. When she took her top off, her "friend" told her to put it back on because "she said I am too small" to go topless.)
IMHO, if one chooeses to dress in a fashion which exposes or emphasises ones physical sexual characteristics, one ought to expect to be looked at by people.
Same goes for grooming - I generally accept that some people will look at my bushy beard. And I realise that people will note my non- Japanese ethnicity. However, gawking, leering, or making comments is uncool.

So, what say you masses of NSG - is it OK to check out the attractive woman on the train, the freaky beardo, or the ethnic guy? Should the woman on the train have an expectation that guys won't check her out? Should she have an expectation that she could go topless without being looked at? Without comment - negative or positive?

So, what say you masses of NSG - is it OK to check out the attractive woman on the train, the freaky beardo, or the ethnic guy?

Sure, why not?

Should the woman on the train have an expectation that guys won't check her out?

No, she is obviously dressing to get attention.

Should she have an expectation that she could go topless without being looked at?

No

Without comment - negative or positive?

Again, no... Although it would certainly be polite of people to save their negative comments

is it OK to check out the attractive woman on the train, the freaky beardo, or the ethnic guy? Should the woman on the train have an expectation that guys won't check her out? Should she have an expectation that she could go topless without being looked at? Without comment - negative or positive?

You should be able to dress how you want but if you dress to different from the norm then you should expect to get looked at, Hell as a young bloke going though a "goth phase" i used to love it and dress "way out" cos' i thought it funny how some people looked at me! (i have out grown this now)

Though it not as cool about being an ethnic guy, there dressing different and being different though no choice of your known.

the woman on the train should expect to be looked at, even gawked at, but not be subject to rude remarks and certainly not expect to be touched.

you should expect to be looked at, maybe even gawked at in some circumstances but to lift the curtain to check you out is a bit much.

when the topless student was too small did that mean she looked too young or that her breasts were somehow too small?

we are all looked at no matter what we are wearing. if its out of the ordinary we are going to get more notice. as long as we are dressed legally for where we are we should not be impeded in going about our business.

the woman on the train should expect to be looked at, even gawked at, but not be subject to rude remarks and certainly not expect to be touched.

you should expect to be looked at, maybe even gawked at in some circumstances but to lift the curtain to check you out is a bit much.

when the topless student was too small did that mean she looked too young or that her breasts were somehow too small?

we are all looked at no matter what we are wearing. if its out of the ordinary we are going to get more notice. as long as we are dressed legally for where we are we should not be impeded in going about our business.

Exactly

Meh people are all differant and yet some things about us stay the same.

We will all look at those we think we have to wether that be a man wearing a suit, a woman in a tight top, a goth, a straight, a gay man in pink fairy wings, a man in cowboy hat, a youth wearing a hoodie, what ever we feel is strange or worth the look.

I get looks from time to time coz of the length of my hair and beard, heh and sometime I get the odd look in Gurdwara because of the colour of my skin, 'horses for courses', add your own applicable platitude here.....

IMHO, if one chooeses to dress in a fashion which exposes or emphasises ones physical sexual characteristics, one ought to expect to be looked at by people.
Same goes for grooming - I generally accept that some people will look at my bushy beard. And I realise that people will note my non- Japanese ethnicity. However, gawking, leering, or making comments is uncool.

So, what say you masses of NSG - is it OK to check out the attractive woman on the train, the freaky beardo, or the ethnic guy? Should the woman on the train have an expectation that guys won't check her out? Should she have an expectation that she could go topless without being looked at? Without comment - negative or positive?
You got it right.

Yes, people will look at you while you are in public. Yes, if something about your appearance is unusual people may look twice, or look a little longer. No, that does not mean that gawking, leering, or harassing are okay behaviors.

It irritates me to no end when people claim that a girl who is dressed a certain way should have to put up with staring, comments, or other rude behaviors. It irritates me even more when people claim that they are incapable of refraining from these behaviors. The hell you are.

If I see a double amputee in a wheelchair, I probably do look a bit longer or do a double-take, simply because somebody with no legs is unusual. But I sure as fuck don't stare or make rude comments about their lack of legs. I sure as fuck don't tell them that they deserve to be stared at or harassed for choosing to go out in public without using fake legs to hide their amputee status. This is because I am an adult human and can control my behavior.

Whenever a guy claims that he "can't help it" when he's leering at a girl, I feel the urge to ask if he also stares rudely at wounded veterans. I'm guessing not. And the simple reason is that he feels the wounded vet deserves respect while the woman does not. It's not about an inability to control one's behavior, it's about a choice not to do so.

the woman on the train should expect to be looked at, even gawked at, but not be subject to rude remarks and certainly not expect to be touched.

you should expect to be looked at, maybe even gawked at in some circumstances but to lift the curtain to check you out is a bit much.

when the topless student was too small did that mean she looked too young or that her breasts were somehow too small?

we are all looked at no matter what we are wearing. if its out of the ordinary we are going to get more notice. as long as we are dressed legally for where we are we should not be impeded in going about our business.

:) Agreed.

(The student was "under-endowed".)

To be honest, I never understood girls dressing up and then being offended when they get looks. But I suspect much of the expressed annoyance is actually put on.

I think looking is always ok, but the polite thing to do is not to stare or even make audible comments.

:) Agreed.

(The student was "under-endowed".)

not that its the topic of the thread but....

her friend was full of shit, eh?

To be honest, I never understood girls dressing up and then being offended when they get looks. But I suspect much of the expressed annoyance is actually put on.

I think looking is always ok, but the polite thing to do is not to stare or even make audible comments.

i dont understand it either. maybe its getting noticed by the wrong people?

Staring is fine, but leering or rude comments are not.

i dont understand it either. maybe its getting noticed by the wrong people?"And maybe she's dressed like that 'cause she wants attention...but that doesn't mean she wants it from you." - a poem/song I wrote.

not that its the topic of the thread but....

her friend was full of shit, eh?

Well, she was small breasted (from what I could tell). But AFAIK, it's never been a requirement to have 38 DDs to be seen topless in public, or even to be considered sexually attractive.

Staring is fine, but leering or rude comments are not.

"And maybe she's dressed like that 'cause she wants attention...but that doesn't mean she wants it from you." - a poem/song I wrote.

Too which I'd say to f'ing bad...
If you dress or act in such a way that you know will draw attention, don't get upset when you receive said attention.

Staring is fine, but leering or rude comments are not.

"And maybe she's dressed like that 'cause she wants attention...but that doesn't mean she wants it from you." - a poem/song I wrote.

Hehe... there's some truth in that for sure ;)

Just to clarify, leering is just creepy. Especially from the wrong sorts of people.
But I don't mind people looking at me when I made an effort to look attractive... I love wearing cleavage, so guess where most of the looks wander to. I don't mind, I'm not wearing the cleavage for the benefit of random strangers so much as for whoever I might be with at the time, but looks don't harm.
Comments are an altogether different matter. Being seriously overweight and having been so for the most part of my life, I react very, VERY sensitive to stupid remarks. I got my fair share in my time, but you never really grow immune to it.

Staring is fine, but leering or rude comments are not.

"And maybe she's dressed like that 'cause she wants attention...but that doesn't mean she wants it from you." - a poem/song I wrote.

so true.

or maybe shes just a drama queen who wants the attention for getting attention.

"And maybe she's dressed like that 'cause she wants attention...but that doesn't mean she wants it from you." - a poem/song I wrote.

:)

An argument that I've heard advanced before. (A la the comment about now that I'm 40 "appreciative looks" are now "leers".)
That's something I think Pagalia was aiming at in the comment above. You can't pick and choose who sees you if you're in public.

I believe I have the right to enjoy the sight of a beautiful woman.

I also believe that woman has the right to bring me back to earth if I enjoy it too much.

Hehe... there's some truth in that for sure ;)

Just to clarify, leering is just creepy. Especially from the wrong sorts of people.
But I don't mind people looking at me when I made an effort to look attractive... I love wearing cleavage, so guess where most of the looks wander to. I don't mind, I'm not wearing the cleavage for the benefit of random strangers so much as for whoever I might be with at the time, but looks don't harm.
Comments are an altogether different matter. Being seriously overweight and having been so for the most part of my life, I react very, VERY sensitive to stupid remarks. I got my fair share in my time, but you never really grow immune to it.

First off, agreed on leering. But as long as you realise that wearing that cleavage will get you looked at by people... :) And Absolutely agreed on comments. Double for touching.

So, what say you masses of NSG - is it OK to check out the attractive woman on the train, the freaky beardo, or the ethnic guy? Should the woman on the train have an expectation that guys won't check her out? Should she have an expectation that she could go topless without being looked at? Without comment - negative or positive?

As a freaky beardo, I say it is totally OK to check it out. In fact, I'm thinking of dying my beard some whacky colours to attract more attention.

"Any publicity is good publicity"

On the other hand, if I was trying to attract sexual interest from a wide range of women (or men I guess) I'd shave my face. Sometimes I do, and it works.

Facial hair is a secondary sexual characteristic of men. But it seems we're discriminated against for having it ...

Men shaving their faces is like women wearing the burqa. WE'RE BEING OPPRESSED!!!

Facial hair is a secondary sexual characteristic of men. But it seems we're discriminated against for having it ...

Men shaving their faces is like women wearing the burqa. WE'RE BEING OPPRESSED!!!

I don't know, there was a poll a few years back that suggested the percntage of women that liked clean shaven men was 52% and those that liked us beardy weirdeys was 48%, not ther greatest of differance huh.

I don't know, there was a poll a few years back that suggested the percntage of women that liked clean shaven men was 52% and those that liked us beardy weirdeys was 48%, not ther greatest of differance huh.I imagine it depends on the length of the beard, as well.

I don't men should be 'staring' at girls, no matter what they wear. Looking, yes; but there are ways to do that without being in their face about the fact you're doing it.

Same goes for any kind of appearance. People shouldn't be surprised that it draws attention to themselves, but that doesn't give people the right to just sit staring.

(That reminds me of something from a number years ago, that's related to this subject. One of my female students went to the French Riviera on vacation. She went to a topless beach with a friend. When she took her top off, her "friend" told her to put it back on because "she said I am too small" to go topless.)That's so weird; you'd think being "too small" means you don't need the support of a bra/bikini and hence it makes much more sense to take it off than when you're "big".
Maybe it's just my personal preferences clouding my judgment...

So, what say you masses of NSG - is it OK to check out the attractive woman on the train, the freaky beardo, or the ethnic guy? Should the woman on the train have an expectation that guys won't check her out? Should she have an expectation that she could go topless without being looked at? Without comment - negative or positive?Well, just looking is ok, you can't really help that; but intensely studying would be a bit much.

I don't men should be 'staring' at girls, no matter what they wear. Looking, yes; but there are ways to do that without being in their face about the fact you're doing it.

Same goes for any kind of appearance. People shouldn't be surprised that it draws attention to themselves, but that doesn't give people the right to just sit staring.

Meh what actual harm does staring do? I have been stared at, I remain unharmed.

Yes it's not polite, yes it is rude, but you know there are some rude people out there.

Meh what actual harm does staring do? I have been stared at, I remain unharmed.It could give someone a feeling of being unsafe; so I suppose psychological harm, for what it's worth. I suppose you'd have to research the impact on one's life that might have to say anything conclusive.

It could give someone a feeling of being unsafe; so I suppose psychological harm, for what it's worth. I suppose you'd have to research the impact on one's life that might have to say anything conclusive.

I get ya, but really, is it that big a deal? We all suffer such harm many times over. Everytime you go to a job interview and fail to get the job, I think the psychological harm you suffer there is far worse.

I've gotten the stares too (Oddly enough, I only get them outside of Nagano, usually in Tokyo or Nagoya which should know better, but anyway), and I totally get you. Getting a sideways glance at the fact that I am an overly large (In terms of weight and hight) gaijin is acceptable, a bit annoying, but acceptable. Being gawked at like I'm an escapee from Ueno Zoo is not, people going out of their way to take a look is just asking for trouble.

I feel the same about women who dress to, ah, impress. Taking a glance or two is ok, leering sure as hell is not ok (Unless you're the one she was trying to impress of course).

As for the small boobs comment... Ah, gotta love the Japanese. :D

I get ya, but really, is it that big a deal? We all suffer such harm many times over. Everytime you go to a job interview and fail to get the job, I think the psychological harm you suffer there is far worse.
It builds. When you're ridding a train and minding your own business, getting stared at like you're some alien from outer space makes you feel like some alien from outer space. The stares tell you in no uncertain terms that you do not belong, you are out of place, you are strange. If you're trying for the effect that's one thing, but if you're dressed the same way everyone else is and not going out of your way to do anything out of the ordinary, it makes you start to question your place in your own home.

It builds. When you're ridding a train and minding your own business, getting stared at like you're some alien from outer space makes you feel like some alien from outer space. The stares tell you in no uncertain terms that you do not belong, you are out of place, you are strange. If you're trying for the effect that's one thing, but if you're dressed the same way everyone else is and not going out of your way to do anything out of the ordinary, it makes you start to question your place in your own home.


Meh I guess then it comes down to 'mindsets' then, truely I have no problems with it, people can stare all they like. Its them that start running at you with knifes that I take issue with.:D

is it OK to check out the attractive woman on the train,

It's okay to look at someone, it's even okay to check someone out, but it's not okay to stare, make rude comments or gestures, or touch her.

the freaky beardo,

Well, to be honest, if someone had a horrible, long, dirty beard, I might make a comment the person I was with. However, while it's natural to look, it's not okay to stare or make rude comments to the person.

or the ethnic guy?

Well, I can understand how in some countries seeing a person of a different race is very rare. My brother is a 6 foot 2 light-haired "Australian" and in the more rural areas of China he has visited, they've never seen someone like him before, so naturally they look.

However, in my society and in most instances, it is never okay to stare or comment rudely to or about someone based on their ethnicty.

Should the woman on the train have an expectation that guys won't check her out?

She's entitled to the expectation that she won't be objectified. No matter what a woman chooses to wear, she still deserves a little respect.

Should she have an expectation that she could go topless without being looked at?

At a topless beach, you'd have the expectation that everyone is in the same boat. It is unfair for someone to enter a topless beach just to perve, and while - like I keep saying - it's natural to look, it's not okay to stare at someone's breasts just because they're there.

Meh I guess then it comes down to 'mindsets' then, truely I have no problems with it, people can stare all they like. Its them that start running at you with knifes that I take issue with.:D
I thought so too, I was used to getting stared at while at home (My wardrobe, before my wife started hiding it and buying me other clothing consisted of a black t-shirt, black jeans, black hiking boots, black leather belt, black Leatherman holster, black Swiss Army Knife holster, black Mini-Mag Lite holster, and topped off with a black trench coat) so when many foreigners in Japan complained about getting stares I thought I'd have no issues with it, until I entered a train one time in Hiroshima with my wife and got stared at by fellow passengers for most of the hour ride back up to the station. At first it was amusing, then uncomfortable, and finally I just started to get angry that I was attracting the same kind of looks I'd give if a kangaroo had wandered into the train.

I don't know, there was a poll a few years back that suggested the percntage of women that liked clean shaven men was 52% and those that liked us beardy weirdeys was 48%, not ther greatest of differance huh.

That's interesting. But it does conflict with my experience.

Perhaps I just have a great jaw ... pulls 'em when it's in view. ;)

Seriously, it's just a "first impressions" thing. A woman who'se going to do you because she likes a big red beard is worth no more than a man who'll do you for having d-cup breasts. "Take a photo, It'll last longer."

(I did say serious, didn't I. *musters sobriety*)

Seriously, it's a "first impressions" thing. A man who bothers to scrape his face every morning obviously cares what he looks like. Self-confidence is attractive in either sex, so "he's proud of how he looks" is a big step towards "that's a good-looking guy."

(I'm not sure that worked. I sure don't feel very sober.)

Well, to be honest, if someone had a horrible, long, dirty beard, I might make a comment the person I was with. However, while it's natural to look, it's not okay to stare or make rude comments to the person.

But, is it OK to call Homeland Security on your mobile, while staring at the horrible, long, dirty beard, and report a suspected biological weapon ...?

Seriously, it's a "first impressions" thing. A man who bothers to scrape his face every morning obviously cares what he looks like. Self-confidence is attractive in either sex, so "he's proud of how he looks" is a big step towards "that's a good-looking guy."


Heh seriously it's a personal choice thing. People find attractive what they find attractive. Are you really saying though that men with beards don't care about what they look like?

Heh seriously it's a personal choice thing. People find attractive what they find attractive. Are you really saying though that men with beards don't care about what they look like?

No sir. Rather, that the man who shaves DOES care what he looks like (is there any other reason to shave?) whereas the beardo may or may not.

Actually, there is a good reason to shave aside from vanity. Facial expression is easier to read when you can see not just the mouth, but all around it. Most notably in smiling. But there I go, arguing against myself.

IMHO, if one chooeses to dress in a fashion which exposes or emphasises ones physical sexual characteristics, one ought to expect to be looked at by people.

i agree, but there is a blurry line between that and just wanting to feel sexy for yourself, not wanting to be leered at.

So, what say you masses of NSG - is it OK to check out the attractive woman on the train, the freaky beardo, or the ethnic guy? Should the woman on the train have an expectation that guys won't check her out? Should she have an expectation that she could go topless without being looked at? Without comment - negative or positive?

*big-huge "i don't know" shrugs*

No sir. Rather, that the man who shaves DOES care what he looks like (is there any other reason to shave?) whereas the beardo may or may not.

Actually, there is a good reason to shave aside from vanity. Facial expression is easier to read when you can see not just the mouth, but all around it. Most notably in smiling. But there I go, arguing against myself.

Heh or he could just not like the feel of a beard, or may have ingrowing facial hair.:D

To be honest, I never understood girls dressing up and then being offended when they get looks. But I suspect much of the expressed annoyance is actually put on.

I think looking is always ok, but the polite thing to do is not to stare or even make audible comments.

Of course looking is OK and I just shake my head when they complain about people look at them. If you are going to wear your blouse unbuttoned a fair way down with your breasts popping out then you should expect to be looked at and not take offence or complain if they do.

It funny how people women in particular go to all this trouble to look nice but when they are looked up they complain.

A couple of interesting things happened yesterday relating to personal apperance, peoples reactions, and "counter-reactions".

The first incident was on the train, there was a young woman wearing a tight, white thin to the point of being nearly see-through T-shirt over a bright red bra. I noticed her shoot several guys dirty looks for checking her out.
Later, after work, I went out for dinner, where the other two incidents happened. First, the people at the table across from mine commented rather loudly in Japanese on my facial hair. Then, one of the people at the next table said to the other "oh, there's a foreigner behind us." Her companion lifted the dividing curtain between the tables to have a gawk. Both people got dirty looks.
Finally, earlier today, someone posted in my 40th birthday thread a comment in jest that now an "appreciative look" will be taken as a leer.

So, all together, yesterdays events have me thinking about how people react to others apperances and how people react to others reactions.

As for the first incident, I was reminded of a comment in a half remembered essay by Camile Paglia 20 years ago, to the effect that women should be able to go topless in public, but that they shouldn't be surprised at how others react.
(That reminds me of something from a number years ago, that's related to this subject. One of my female students went to the French Riviera on vacation. She went to a topless beach with a friend. When she took her top off, her "friend" told her to put it back on because "she said I am too small" to go topless.)
IMHO, if one chooeses to dress in a fashion which exposes or emphasises ones physical sexual characteristics, one ought to expect to be looked at by people.
Same goes for grooming - I generally accept that some people will look at my bushy beard. And I realise that people will note my non- Japanese ethnicity. However, gawking, leering, or making comments is uncool.

So, what say you masses of NSG - is it OK to check out the attractive woman on the train, the freaky beardo, or the ethnic guy? Should the woman on the train have an expectation that guys won't check her out? Should she have an expectation that she could go topless without being looked at? Without comment - negative or positive?

First off, ROFL!!
Secondly, no, it's not ok to gawk or make comments about others, regardless of their ethnicities. And I thought the Japanese were supposed to be very polite. I guess that was one of my cultural misconceptions.:(
I guess it's ok to look at a pretty girl, but if she's wearing extremely revealing outfit and she's looked at in a lusty fashion, well, she provoked, and I know I sound "machista", but it's true.:p

The first incident was on the train, there was a young woman wearing a tight, white thin to the point of being nearly see-through T-shirt over a bright red bra. I noticed her shoot several guys dirty looks for checking her out.



This is one of my biggest pet peeves actually.


If you dress in a manner that exposes/excentuates certain features, expect people to take notice. If you dont want guys looking at your boobies, dont wear see through or low cut shits. The defense "But I like the shirt cause its cute!" doesnt cut it.

Now, it would be inappropriate if they said "Nice tits" or grabbed em, but just looking at something that is clearly meant to draw attention to yourself, no, thats totally fine.

If a girl wears a short, short skirt, and I check out her ass, she doesnt get to bitch if she notices me.

A comedian (dont remember who, think it was Chapell) has a great bit on this, to paraphrase "If Im dressed like a cop and someone comes up to me and says 'Hey man that guy just robbed me!' Im gonna look like an ass if I say 'What just cause Im wearing the uniform you think Im a cop?!?'"

:) Agreed.

(The student was "under-endowed".)
Saying that was mean. I wouldn't like it at all if someone at a nude beach told me "put your pants back on, yours is too small".

I think looking is okay in all normal situations as long as you don't overdo it. If you stare at a specific person for 10 seconds it can feel much longer for that person. It's hard to tell if it's a good thing or a bad thing when people stare but either way I don't mind much.