NationStates Jolt Archive

I wanted to phrase this issue within the context of mainstream anglo culture in the US and Canada specifically, with the option of course of widening it into any minority culture within a majority context.

It's understandable that certain cultural traits in the mainstream will be seen as desireable, while others are considered undesireable. Some are obvious, and others are more subtle. My question is, what sorts of cultural norms are you aware of that deviate from the mainstream, and how does this affect cross-cultural interaction?

For example, among aboriginal people, we are taught to be humble. Others can sing your praises, but you don't generally go around bragging about your accomplishments. It's incredibly gauche. This can come up in odd ways...for example, during job interviews where you're asked to list the ways in which you excell. It's incredibly embarrasing for us to do this, even difficult. Yet when it comes time to list your weaknesses, we can go on in length...perhaps giving off the mistaken impression that we are more flawed than skilled. But that is just how things work for us.

As another example, within the judicial system, it is considered pure folly to plead guilty to a criminal charge, whether one is guilty or not. This is pure insanity to us! If you did it, you admit it, you take responsibility and hope that the sentence will be lenient because you've recognised the wrong you've done. In the mainstream, you deny deny deny, and hope that the process will benefit you, letting you either get away with your crime (assuming guilt) or getting you a bearable sentence. What this means for us is that many aboriginal people plead guilty and get slapped with harsh sentences.

It's not to say that some of us don't learn how to play this game, to brag about ourselves, or to lie about our guilt. But the mainstream favours a certain set of norms above others, and it doesn indeed cause us extreme difficulty.

Do you have any examples of cultural norms that can cause awkward situations when situated in the mainstream?

I like to eat babies....

I like to eat babies....

I can see how that might cause difficulty for you in the mainstream society.

Also, if this is true about Jews, what other truths have I discarded as myths!?

I like to eat babies....

Hey, me too! :D

Quit trying to get us to do your homework for you.

Quit trying to get us to do your homework for you.

I'm in law, not some fucking arts degree. They could give a shit here about cultural differences :P

I like to drink wine, heck, we Spaniards like to drink wine. We're merry people. But I dislike when people think that, just because we like to drink, that makes us drunks. Meh, I think this is totally unrelated to the topic, so, sorry Neesika!:D

I don't eat babies. I eat puppies!

I have no Protestant work ethic. Consequently, most of North America thinks I'm lazy, while I think that most North Americans can't organise themselves properly enough to finish their work day at a reasonable hour.

I just don't see what is inherently good about hard work. I don't mind doing the work when there is some sort of reward, but I don't see it as morally good.

When I was a kid, at school in France, other kids would point out to me that I was excessively polite. I eventually put that down to being British. :D

When I was a kid, at school in France, other kids would point out to me that I was excessively polite. I eventually put that down to being British. :D


Methinks anyone looks "excessively polite" compared to the French.


Stereotypes ftw!;)

I used to think of myself as a pretty mainstream American, but then I moved from my hometown of New York City to America and realized that the US and NYC are two completely different cultures. I am not an American, culture-wise.

Americans think New Yorkers talk too loud. New Yorkers think Americans mumble.

Americans think New Yorkers curse too much. New Yorkers think Americans don't express themselves openly.

Americans think New Yorkers are belligerent and rude because they'll tell people they don't like to fuck off to their faces. New Yorkers think Americans are hypocritical and untrustworthy because they'll act polite to people they don't like but badmouth them behind their backs.

Americans think New Yorkers are always pushing and rushing around needlessly. New Yorkers think Americans waste time and are lazy.

Americans think New Yorkers are paranoid because they always lock their houses and cars. New Yorkers think Americans are naive because they don't lock up their stuff and then feel shocked if they get robbed.

Americans think New Yorkers can't shut up and only talk about themselves when they should be either enjoying silence or listening to someone else talk about themselves, letting the other person have the spotlight. New Yorkers think it's extremely rude to remain silent and not keep conversation going in a social group, and New Yorkers also respond to peoples' stories by telling similar stories about themselves as a form of bonding through shared experience.

Americans, apparently, do not know how to form lines and wait in them. Waiting in line is something New Yorkers do from early childhood and feel is a part of civilized behavior.

Americans never seem to get used to differences among people and feel totally free to point them out, comment on them, even make fun of them -- maybe out of ignorance, or maybe out of a wish to start dialogue about them. New Yorkers are used to diversity (whether they like it or not) and feel that commenting on such stuff is hopelessly unsophisticated and that if you make fun of a person's differences to their face, you better be braced for a fight, and you'll deserve whatever response you get.

I'm pretty sure many of these differences apply to most big-city people versus suburban/rural people in the US, but it's most obvious and most often commented on with New Yorkers versus Americans.

EDIT: PS: Americans and New Yorkers also eat completely different foods. I have not had anything even remotely like what I was taught to believe was a bagel or pastrami or mustard or a hotdog or a pizza (and so on) since I left NYC.

It's not to say that some of us don't learn how to play this game, to brag about ourselves, or to lie about our guilt. But the mainstream favours a certain set of norms above others, and it doesn indeed cause us extreme difficulty.


The mainstream is increasingly educated about cultural differences, according to what I've seen from friends and relatives who've gone into industry/management/business, etc. I was taught about the potential pitfalls of dealing with Blacks/Hispanics/American Indians/Asians, etc. when in school - several times in different classes, in fact. Most of this was in the spirit of teaching us to be competitive in a global economy, rather than in support of diversity or cultural harmony or whatever, but it still adds up to clearer communication in general, I should think. Hopefully we'll see some improvement with the next generation of workers.

In my case it's more American forthrightness that gets me into trouble. Most Japanese hint at things and stating your opinion directly can be considered childish. This is particularly true in saying no, if you ask to do something and the answer is no, a Japanese person is likely to suck at his or her teeth and say, "It is difficult" which you would translate as no, you're not doing that. I, on the other hand, have no problem is saying no directly and even after a few years in Japan still have trouble 'reading the wind' to find out the real meaning of what it being said.

In my case it's more American forthrightness that gets me into trouble. Most Japanese hint at things and stating your opinion directly can be considered childish. This is particularly true in saying no, if you ask to do something and the answer is no, a Japanese person is likely to suck at his or her teeth and say, "It is difficult" which you would translate as no, you're not doing that. I, on the other hand, have no problem is saying no directly and even after a few years in Japan still have trouble 'reading the wind' to find out the real meaning of what it being said.

Heh. High-context vs. low-context communication in a nutshell. :p

For example, among aboriginal people, we are taught to be humble. Others can sing your praises, but you don't generally go around bragging about your accomplishments. It's incredibly gauche. This can come up in odd ways...for example, during job interviews where you're asked to list the ways in which you excell. It's incredibly embarrasing for us to do this, even difficult. Yet when it comes time to list your weaknesses, we can go on in length...perhaps giving off the mistaken impression that we are more flawed than skilled. But that is just how things work for us.


most people I know are like that regardless of race/culture. (not that I know many people from far reaching cultures....we are all Americans either by birth or immigration)

I used to think of myself as a pretty mainstream American, but then I moved from my hometown of New York City to America and realized that the US and NYC are two completely different cultures. I am not an American, culture-wise.


this is SOOOO true.

I'm in law, not some fucking arts degree. They could give a shit here about cultural differences :P
I thought you were already practising. Huh.

I find that whenever I'm outside the Canadian prairies (and I currently live outside the Canadian prairies), people stand too close to me. I like to stand at least a metre from anyone with whom I'm having a conversation, and everywhere I go I find that people would much rather be much MUCH closer to me than that, and I really dislike it.

Incidentally, to me that legal question about pleading guilty isn't so much a cultural thinkg about trying to get away with stuff, but simply how the game is played. You can only succeed within the law by gaming the system, so that's what everyone does. It's less a cultural preference and more an optimal strategy.

I find that whenever I'm outside the Canadian prairies (and I currently live outside the Canadian prairies), people stand too close to me. I like to stand at least a metre from anyone with whom I'm having a conversation, and everywhere I go I find that people would much rather be much MUCH closer to me than that, and I really dislike it.

3 feet is the standard for most of North America - that's about a meter. France and Italy are supposedly the closest of any Western country in terms of proxemics, and American Indians are somewhat unique in preferring to stand shoulder to shoulder rather than face to face, if what I've read is true.

Fascinating stuff, either way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxemics

France and Italy are supposedly the closest of any Western country in terms of proxemics,

You ever talk to a Spaniard? Maaaaaan, that's claustrophobic.

3 feet is the standard for most of North America - that's about a meter. France and Italy are supposedly the closest of any Western country in terms of proxemics, and American Indians are somewhat unique in preferring to stand shoulder to shoulder rather than face to face, if what I've read is true.

Fascinating stuff, either way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxemics
I got that number wrong. Generally speaking, if two people in western Canada are having a conversation, and they felt the need to shake hands, at least one of them would have to take a step forward to make it happen. So maybe it's more like 5 feet.

I met a woman from the French consulate who complained that Canadians never touch each other, and sometimes (especially true in Alberta) don't even greet each other verbally when they meet, even when they already know each other.

Anyway, don't stand so close to me.

I got that number wrong. Generally speaking, if two people in western Canada are having a conversation, and they felt the need to shake hands, at least one of them would have to take a step forward to make it happen. So maybe it's more like 5 feet.



This is true in Australia too, particularly in the country. I really noticed it when I moved to the city after living in the sticks.

I wanted to phrase this issue within the context of mainstream anglo culture in the US and Canada specifically, with the option of course of widening it into any minority culture within a majority context.

It's understandable that certain cultural traits in the mainstream will be seen as desireable, while others are considered undesireable. Some are obvious, and others are more subtle. My question is, what sorts of cultural norms are you aware of that deviate from the mainstream, and how does this affect cross-cultural interaction?

For example, among aboriginal people, we are taught to be humble. Others can sing your praises, but you don't generally go around bragging about your accomplishments. It's incredibly gauche. This can come up in odd ways...for example, during job interviews where you're asked to list the ways in which you excell. It's incredibly embarrasing for us to do this, even difficult. Yet when it comes time to list your weaknesses, we can go on in length...perhaps giving off the mistaken impression that we are more flawed than skilled. But that is just how things work for us.

As another example, within the judicial system, it is considered pure folly to plead guilty to a criminal charge, whether one is guilty or not. This is pure insanity to us! If you did it, you admit it, you take responsibility and hope that the sentence will be lenient because you've recognised the wrong you've done. In the mainstream, you deny deny deny, and hope that the process will benefit you, letting you either get away with your crime (assuming guilt) or getting you a bearable sentence. What this means for us is that many aboriginal people plead guilty and get slapped with harsh sentences.

OK, I don't see how any of that is 'odd' or different, that's how I operate...

This is true in Australia too, particularly in the country. I really noticed it when I moved to the city after living in the sticks.

Hey tell me about it mate I used to work in a country town and when ever people got in the lift we would all move around the lift so they was space between us as more people got on we moved around and we would all ensure subconsciously that we all had equal amount of space. I then move into the city and people dont move in the lift you could have three people in a large lift and they would all be standing near each other. Yes you can always tell someone who has lived in the country then someone who has never lived outside of a major city.

If you think the cities are bad try going overseas where the space they have is no where near the amount that us Aussies get they stand near you brushing you as they walk past, nightmare.

I wanted to phrase this issue within the context of mainstream anglo culture in the US and Canada specifically, with the option of course of widening it into any minority culture within a majority context.

It's understandable that certain cultural traits in the mainstream will be seen as desireable, while others are considered undesireable. Some are obvious, and others are more subtle. My question is, what sorts of cultural norms are you aware of that deviate from the mainstream, and how does this affect cross-cultural interaction?

Let me preface this by saying that I'm about as anglo as it gets, and I've spent my entire life living in the USA, so that's the cultural context I'm coming from. I am not now, nor have I ever been, part of an ethnic minority in my country.

With all that said, I often find myself feeling as though my "culture" deviates from the mainstream culture in my country. My "culture" is basically the way my parents and close family brought me up, and we're a family of weirdos. My entire young life was basically a long series of revelations about exactly how weird my family is compared to the mainstream.

We're atheist, for one thing, which is still pretty taboo in mainstream culture. We're also unashamedly nerdy, which is something that is gradually becoming more accepted (thank you Bill Gates!). But I think the area where my "culture" most conflicts with the mainstream is in gender roles and sexual values.

Example: When I was in first grade, my teacher gently told me that we don't talk about vaginas during play time. I was honestly baffled by this. In my family-culture, "vagina" was like "elbow": it was a word for a body part. Why on Earth would you not be allowed to talk about elbows in public?


For example, among aboriginal people, we are taught to be humble. Others can sing your praises, but you don't generally go around bragging about your accomplishments. It's incredibly gauche. This can come up in odd ways...for example, during job interviews where you're asked to list the ways in which you excell. It's incredibly embarrasing for us to do this, even difficult. Yet when it comes time to list your weaknesses, we can go on in length...perhaps giving off the mistaken impression that we are more flawed than skilled. But that is just how things work for us.

I don't know if it's cultural or just personal, but I have this same problem. I really don't like talking myself up in that way, either.


Do you have any examples of cultural norms that can cause awkward situations when situated in the mainstream?
The one cultural norm that has caused the most conflict with me, personally, is the different personal hygiene practices of some cultures and groups. I'm accustomed to people bathing at least every other day, and washing their hair roughly as often. I'm afraid my nose has become somewhat dainty about the smell of human body odors.

For example, among aboriginal people, we are taught to be humble. Others can sing your praises, but you don't generally go around bragging about your accomplishments. It's incredibly gauche. This can come up in odd ways...for example, during job interviews where you're asked to list the ways in which you excell. It's incredibly embarrasing for us to do this, even difficult. Yet when it comes time to list your weaknesses, we can go on in length...perhaps giving off the mistaken impression that we are more flawed than skilled. But that is just how things work for us.
Actually, I have an interesting story about that. During interview period at school, my Japanese friend was saying the same thing. She didn't do as well at her interviews because she grew up in the Japanese culture being taught to be humble, and when asked to list her strength, she could never do it with confidence. This gave the interviewer the impression that she lacked confidence, and therefore didn't hire her. It gave her quite a bit of grief, actually, but as it stands, she couldn't just reverse 18 years of teaching on being humble.

Just my 2 cents.


As for other things, I think in an anglo culture, people expect each other to be refered to by the first name, no matter the age difference. I still remember very clearly that my friend's mother once asked me to call her Kate, because she was divorced, so I had no last name to refer her to after "Mrs." No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't bring myself to call her by that. I had a Chinese upbringing which told me to always respect my elders, especially people like a friend's mother. In my mind, to refer to her as "Kate" would almost be an insult.

Example: When I was in first grade, my teacher gently told me that we don't talk about vaginas during play time. I was honestly baffled by this. In my family-culture, "vagina" was like "elbow": it was a word for a body part. Why on Earth would you not be allowed to talk about elbows in public?
my children have run in to this as well. this idiot decided to explain to them that "God" doesn't want those parts to be public because he makes you grow hair to cover them when you grow up, my 4 year old said "well, Daddy has hair on his chest and arms and face, and Mommy doesn't, she can probably go topless then and Daddy can wear like a space suit!"

my kids don't go around her much any more, they've decided she's senile.

I guess culturally, being from the south/ish we tend to be overly polite/respectful, my kids say "yes ma'am" when I ask them to do things, they say "yes sir" to their dad, we say it to people older than us when they ask us to do things...apparently this freaks out people from other areas and seems too authoritarian. Children call me Ms. <my first name> which bothers my husband, he thinks it should be Mrs. <my last name> but we grew up in different southern/ish communities, things are a bit more lax here, in fact it's almost acceptable to say "yeah" here instead of "yes" to your parents when they ask you a question....almost.

We say please and thank you to our children, they say it back to us, we say it maybe 50 times a day. There is an unspoken rule that you must be a perfect guest and a perfect host. If you don't see something on the table at dinner you don't ask for it, it's rude. If someone offers you something you turn it down 3 times before accepting. Things like that I guess count right?

If someone offers you something you turn it down 3 times before accepting. Things like that I guess count right?

That is a right strange one. If somebody offers you something, you say yes if you want it, and no if you don't.

In addition if you say no three times thats an indication that you really don't want it and so a fourth offering will not be heading your way.

That is a right strange one. If somebody offers you something, you say yes if you want it, and no if you don't.

In addition if you say no three times thats an indication that you really don't want it and so a fourth offering will not be heading your way.
not here.

"would you like a soda?"
"no thank you"
"are you sure?"
"I'm fine"
"it's not a problem to get you one, do you want a soda?"
"no, I don't, I'm fine really"
"last chance"
"okay sure"

see? nice.

I don't make up the rules, I just follow them.

not here.

"would you like a soda?"
"no thank you"
"are you sure?"
"I'm fine"
"it's not a problem to get you one, do you want a soda?"
"no, I don't, I'm fine really"
"last chance"
"okay sure"

see? nice.

I don't make up the rules, I just follow them.
In my parents' house, that's how it works with a new guest. You practically force-feed them.

However, if the "guest" is one of our good friends, it goes like this:

"Soda?"
"Nah, I'm good."
"'K."

Seems kinda backwards, when you think about it, since we tend to treat strangers with more courtesy than our good buddies...;)

not here.

"would you like a soda?"
"no thank you"
"are you sure?"
"I'm fine"
"it's not a problem to get you one, do you want a soda?"
"no, I don't, I'm fine really"
"last chance"
"okay sure"

see? nice.

I don't make up the rules, I just follow them.

You are a strange and wonderfull people, with strange and wonderfull words. The same dialouge this end of the ocean would go.


"Would you like a pop?"
"No thank you"
"Sure?"
"Yes"
"Okay"

In my parents' house, that's how it works with a new guest. You practically force-feed them.

However, if the "guest" is one of our good friends, it goes like this:

"Soda?"
"Nah, I'm good."
"'K."

Seems kinda backwards, when you think about it, since we tend to treat strangers with more courtesy than our good buddies...;)

sounds about right. I did mislead a bit though, after you have been over a few times the conversation goes more like

"do you want a coke?"
"yeah, that would be great"
"what kind?"


LOL

all soda is Coke, all adhesive bandages are Bandaids, all tissue is Kleenex and all tubs with jets are Jacuzzis

we brand everything, even if we aren't using that brand.

For example, among aboriginal people, we are taught to be humble. <snip....>

As another example, within the judicial system, <snip....>

I didn't realise that those were cultural things... I was always under the impression that most people act that way, and only those who happen to be especially egotistical/insecure would boast about themselves publically, while only those who happen to be pathological liars, or are scared to death of prison, would continue to deny guilt if they'd actually done it.

people stand too close to me. I like to stand at least a metre from anyone with whom I'm having a conversation, <snip....>
Indeed. Friends may stand at arm's length away. Acquaintances and strangers, just beyond arm's length. Come within arm's length, especially after I've stepped back to maintain it, and I'll assume you're going to pull a knife and act accordingly.


I guess culturally, being from the south/ish we tend to be overly polite/respectful, <snip....>

I was raised in the American South by an essentially European family, and yes, politeness was a major part of my education from day one. This tends to surprise people a little bit, as here in the North, it's apparently not a priority. Among the other cultural "norms" I absorbed:

- Money is not to be talked about in public when possible. It is not a proper topic of conversation to be heard by all and sundry; it should especially not be asked for, as only the most pitiable, starving bums (and corrupt, lying politicians or CEOs) do that.

- Shoes, coats, and hats are not to be worn inside private homes, even if it is very cold or the floor is dirty. Wear slippers on your feet instead, and leave outerwear near the door.

- Always insist on paying if with another person. It's impolite to let them pick up the tab, even if you have no money on hand. On the other hand, if they do pay, it's also impolite to reimburse them afterwards. I never got that.

- Public displays of emotion of any kind should be avoided. If you're angry, don't yell and make a spectacle of yourself; if you're happy, don't dance around and sing loudly. My parents had no problem with public displays of affection, however, but I incorporated this into the blanket category: no P.D.A.'s, either. Also, do not speak loudly, when a quieter tone will do. (Screaming because you are drowning or being eaten by a bear is acceptable.)

- Be honest but discreet. If someone is fucking up, take the time to compose a diplomatically worded statement that discreetly informs them that they are fucking up, instead of walking up to them and baldly telling them, "You are fucking up." If you really don't like somebody, just avoid them rather than insulting them or talking about them behind their back.

- Only uncivilized people swear. Don't do it. (That one, I break all the time, though.)

- Show hospitality and consideration towards all creatures that cross your path, unless they are vermin. Always be ready with drink and victuals for anybody who shows up at your door.

I thought of a couple other "cultural" bits that I got from growing up:

-If you are going to be staying at somebody's house for more than 12 hours, bring a house gift. Examples of an appropriate house gift would be a small potted plant, a nice bound book, a gift basket, or possibly a DVD. Himself's parents were quite bemused when I brought them a cactus flower the first time I visited, and Himself explained to me that the custom of house gifts is actually not mainstream (at least in Jersey, where his family lives).

-An adult female who is not known to you is "ma'am." An adult male who is not known to you is "sir." Children of either sex are "Gitawfmylawn."

-If you are visiting somebody's home for a meal, whoever does not cook the meal does the dishes. I have since learned that many hosts are uncomfortable if I clear the table after the meal and start doing the dishes, so I tend not to do this any more.

-If you are visiting somebody's home for a meal, whoever does not cook the meal does the dishes. I have since learned that many hosts are uncomfortable if I clear the table after the meal and start doing the dishes, so I tend not to do this any more.
It has happened twice recently that I invited someone over for a meal, and he (It was a guy in both cases, albeit not the same one) offered to do the dishes. Not just clear the table, which strikes me as polite, but actually wash everything in the sink. To my thinking, it is inappropriate to force a guest to do housework, and a tiny, tiny bit insulting to insist on doing it while visiting. It is better than bringing food to a house where you are invited specifically to eat, though. Many people think of it as a polite gift, but I see it as a declaration that whatever is being prepared will be so bad one has to pack a lunch anyway.

I am not sure if that counts as a large culture clash, or just a matter of personal preference. I think it is more (Or less) prevalent based on area, though.

It is better than bringing food to a house where you are invited specifically to eat, though. Many people think of it as a polite gift, but I see it as a declaration that whatever is being prepared will be so bad one has to pack a lunch anyway.

I run into this a lot, it's considered very rude here, but I can't eat what most people eat, I'll get really sick, and turning them down for dinner invites is also rude, so it's a sticky situation. I have been told by many people who don't understand at ALL about how sick I will get and how dangerous it is for me to eat things that I shouldn't, that I should "just eat a little bit" and "not say anything". I think it's more rude for people to expect me to eat food that is toxic to me than it is for me to bring salad and dessert.

There are a lot of guest/food faux pas that I can't avoid now, and southern life is very food oriented. (sorry about the rant, it's just difficult being looked at as rude when I am just trying to fit in, I basically have two choices, look like a bitch or be a hermit, I don't like either.)

I basically have two choices, look like a bitch or be a hermit, I don't like either.

You could always go for being a bitchy hermit ;)

I find that whenever I'm outside the Canadian prairies (and I currently live outside the Canadian prairies), people stand too close to me. I like to stand at least a metre from anyone with whom I'm having a conversation, and everywhere I go I find that people would much rather be much MUCH closer to me than that, and I really dislike it.

Hah! Then stay away from Toronto, especially at rush hour! We really get packed in shoulder to shoulder. We're human sardines, but we wouldn't have it any other way.

Something I don't get... the full hug... my family, especially my mother's specialised in that half-ass hug with the kiss to each cheek. It's slightly uncomfortable for me when my in-laws want the full hug.

I also am reluctant to put my fork down when at a restaurant now. Namely pricier ones because of how I was taught to place my utensils. If I left both on the plate the way I was taught, even though I was half done, the server tried to take my plate. It's bad form to hold your fork and/or knife when not using. It's also bad form to have the same utensils not properly rested on your plate, ie: the tip just resting on it, lest it fall onto the floor.

Hah! Then stay away from Toronto, especially at rush hour! We really get packed in shoulder to shoulder. We're human sardines, but we wouldn't have it any other way.
I'm already on record as someone who hates Toronto. It's too crowded, the streets are poorly designed (the traffic is awful), and the weather really sucks. I don't know why anyone lives there.

Then again, you vote Liberal, so it's good you all stay there so we know where you are.
I also am reluctant to put my fork down when at a restaurant now. Namely pricier ones because of how I was taught to place my utensils. If I left both on the plate the way I was taught, even though I was half done, the server tried to take my plate. It's bad form to hold your fork and/or knife when not using. It's also bad form to have the same utensils not properly rested on your plate, ie: the tip just resting on it, lest it fall onto the floor.
Out west servers will only take your plate without asking if you've arranged your cutlery side by side on the plate. If your knife and fork are on opposite sides of the plate, you're not done yet.

I'm already on record as someone who hates Toronto. It's too crowded, the streets are poorly designed (the traffic is awful), and the weather really sucks. I don't know why anyone lives there.

Then again, you vote Liberal, so it's good you all stay there so we know where you are.

It's not THAT bad here. At least we're not Regina or Saskatoon. Or Ottawa... you've never been there, have you? Awful places and too many bureaucrats. The weather only sucks in winter and the streets were designed a long time ago, not meant to handle 21st century traffic.

And why do you assume I vote Liberal? I'm a card carrying member of the NDP. My location is no indication of how I vote. It kind of sells you out as being a Conservative who doesn't give two fucking cents about anything other than the tar sands of Alberta and the Calgary stampede. Yee-hah!! :rolleyes:

It's not THAT bad here. At least we're not Regina or Saskatoon. Or Ottawa... you've never been there, have you? Awful places and too many bureaucrats. The weather only sucks in winter and the streets were designed a long time ago, not meant to handle 21st century traffic.
I've never been to Toronto in the winter. It's your summer weather I can't stand.

I quite like Saskatoon - it's a pleasant little city, but not a fair comparison to Toronto (Toronto is something like 30 times the size).

I haven't spent much time in Ottawa, but I did think the city was fairly well designed. I enjoyed the pockets of city connected by long freeways through parks.
And why do you assume I vote Liberal? I'm a card carrying member of the NDP. My location is no indication of how I vote.
I almost wrote "Liberal and NDP", because I know there's a dense pocket of NDP supporters in central Toronto. How anyone supports Jack Layton I'll never know. But I stuck with Liberal because Albertans have an historical reason to distrust Liberals. Provincially, Alberta just re-elected a government they genuinely dislike because the next obvious option has "Liberal" in its name.

But I was speaking about Torontonians, generally, not you in particular.
It kind of sells you out as being a Conservative who doesn't give two fucking cents about anything other than the tar sands of Alberta and the Calgary stampede. Yee-hah!! :rolleyes:
I don't usually vote Conservative (though I was employed by the Reform Party back in the day), but otherwise your description is fairly accurate. I don't see why our oil money should subsidise Quebec's dairy industry, for example.

-If you are going to be staying at somebody's house for more than 12 hours, bring a house gift. <snip....>

Ooh, I forgot about this. With my parents, it was: Never go to anybody's house empty-handed. Always bring a gift when visiting friends, no matter how small or unprepossessing, and no matter how short the visit. I have developed the opposite problem, perhaps as a result, and dislike either giving or receiving presents. (If I want something, I'll go out and buy it. Why should I bring people things that (a) they might have anyway, (b) they might not want, (c) if they wanted it and didn't have it, they could go and buy on their own? Or am I supposed to be unable to express my friendship with them in any other way but by bringing them stuff?)

Ooh, I forgot about this. With my parents, it was: Never go to anybody's house empty-handed. Always bring a gift when visiting friends, no matter how small or unprepossessing, and no matter how short the visit. I have developed the opposite problem, perhaps as a result, and dislike either giving or receiving presents. (If I want something, I'll go out and buy it. Why should I bring people things that (a) they might have anyway, (b) they might not want, (c) if they wanted it and didn't have it, they could go and buy on their own? Or am I supposed to be unable to express my friendship with them in any other way but by bringing them stuff?)
That's something I've learned about gifts. Gifts almost always have a lesser utility than cash, so we can all benefit by buying stuff for ourselves rather than for each other.

That's something I've learned about gifts. Gifts almost always have a lesser utility than cash, so we can all benefit by buying stuff for ourselves rather than for each other.

You sound like a bundle of laughs

You sound like a bundle of laughs
People would be happier if they all thought like me.

People would be happier if they all thought like me.

I can imagine the utopia that would be a bunch of Llewdors standing ten feet away from eachother and lacking the basic sentimentality to accept a gift in the spirit in which it is offered. Paradise.

all soda is Coke, all adhesive bandages are Bandaids, all tissue is Kleenex and all tubs with jets are Jacuzzis

we brand everything, even if we aren't using that brand.
But do you drink out of Bubblers rather than water fountains? If anyone can place me from that comment, they get props.
I can imagine the utopia that would be a bunch of Llewdors standing ten feet away from eachother and lacking the basic sentimentality to accept a gift in the spirit in which it is offered. Paradise.

Meh, I kind of agree about the gifts. Though, I don't think it's a cultural thing, I just dislike receiving presents. The idea of getting something for free that isn't of vital importance strikes me as just weird.

But do you drink out of Bubblers rather than water fountains? If anyone can place me from that comment, they get props.


are you from Boston?

and we drink from fountains.

Animals in the house. It's the most bizarre thing on earth to most aboriginal people. It absolutely creeps me out. I love cats, love dogs, it's nothing against those animals...it's just ewwww to have them living in your house when they should be outside, WHERE THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO LIVE. It's something I just can't get over.

I also am reluctant to put my fork down when at a restaurant now. Namely pricier ones because of how I was taught to place my utensils. If I left both on the plate the way I was taught, even though I was half done, the server tried to take my plate. It's bad form to hold your fork and/or knife when not using. It's also bad form to have the same utensils not properly rested on your plate, ie: the tip just resting on it, lest it fall onto the floor.

Hahaha, I'm terrible with utensils...really. I cut meat and then eat it with my fingers. And I look like a four year old when I do that cutting. The whole 'proper form' for utensils and eating and such is definitely not an aboriginal priority. I could give a shit how gauche I might look, so I tend not to eat with people for whom this is a problem.

Hahaha, I'm terrible with utensils...really. I cut meat and then eat it with my fingers. And I look like a four year old when I do that cutting. The whole 'proper form' for utensils and eating and such is definitely not an aboriginal priority. I could give a shit how gauche I might look, so I tend not to eat with people for whom this is a problem.

I tend not to give a damn but I don't like it when the server tries to take my plate before I'm done. :)

are you from Boston?

and we drink from fountains.

Nope, not even close. Milwaukee. The Bubbler phenomenon is something I've discovered is strictly a Milwaukee thing, neither the rest of the country nor even the rest of Wisconsin uses the term for some reason.

Nope, not even close. Milwaukee. The Bubbler phenomenon is something I've discovered is strictly a Milwaukee thing, neither the rest of the country nor even the rest of Wisconsin uses the term for some reason.

oh, I have an acquaintance from Boston who says "Bubbla" what she means is Bubbler...but she never says the "er" on anything. haha. She told me it was a uniquely Boston term.

As another example, within the judicial system, it is considered pure folly to plead guilty to a criminal charge, whether one is guilty or not. This is pure insanity to us! If you did it, you admit it, you take responsibility and hope that the sentence will be lenient because you've recognised the wrong you've done. In the mainstream, you deny deny deny, and hope that the process will benefit you, letting you either get away with your crime (assuming guilt) or getting you a bearable sentence. What this means for us is that many aboriginal people plead guilty and get slapped with harsh sentences.

It's not to say that some of us don't learn how to play this game, to brag about ourselves, or to lie about our guilt. But the mainstream favours a certain set of norms above others, and it doesn indeed cause us extreme difficulty.

o.O

*Thanks the Powers for living in a country with a functioning legal systems where confessing will net you a more lenient sentence.*

I tend not to give a damn but I don't like it when the server tries to take my plate before I'm done. :)

I growl at them.

o.O

*Thanks the Powers for living in a country with a functioning legal systems where confessing will net you a more lenient sentence.*

Where?

I growl at them.

Why do I not have a problem believing that? :p

Why do I not have a problem believing that? :p

One thing people who know me learn early on is don't EVER come between me and my food.

Where?

It is believed that in the US pleading guilty will get you a lighter sentence. Ive never actually seen anything to back that belief up, but many people walk around believing it anyway.

It is believed that in the US pleading guilty will get you a lighter sentence. Ive never actually seen anything to back that belief up, but many people walk around believing it anyway.

Pleading guilty can also mean the difference between a trial by a judge and a trial by a jury. There's a number of reasons for why a guilty plea might be a preferable course of action.

One thing people who know me learn early on is don't EVER come between me and my food.

That's why you learn to eat fast. Thorough chewing's for chumps.

Where?
Here.

Haven't you hung around GM enough to know where "here" is for me? ;) :p

It is believed that in the US pleading guilty will get you a lighter sentence. Ive never actually seen anything to back that belief up, but many people walk around believing it anyway.
It helps to have it codified that if someone voluntarily confesses, the court shall take that into consideration when deciding the punishment - and that the court may even set a punishment that's below any mandatory minimum or (for "lesser" crimes) change the type of punishment (for example from prison time to a fine).

And it seems to work.

Pleading guilty can also mean the difference between a trial by a judge and a trial by a jury. There's a number of reasons for why a guilty plea might be a preferable course of action.
A defence lawyer I know once said that if you're guilty of a crime, you'll want a trial by jury, but if you're innocent you'll want to stand before a judge.

I'm inclined to agree with him - though I'm for the eradication of the jury system as it is today, so I'm a bit biased :p

A defence lawyer I know once said that if you're guilty of a crime, you'll want a trial by jury, but if you're innocent you'll want to stand before a judge.

I'm inclined to agree with him - though I'm for the eradication of the jury system as it is today, so I'm a bit biased :p

That really depends on both the person and the crime, though. I know from personal experience. I was charged with a Class D felony but if I pleaded guilty it stayed with the judge and was more likely to be reduced to the misdemeanor (which it should have been in the first place) rather than the full on felony that it was likely to remain if brought before a jury. I guess it depends on geographical location, too.

Here.

Haven't you hung around GM enough to know where "here" is for me? ;) :p I've got a terrible memory. I can't remember if it's the UK, or Japan *is embarrased*

That really depends on both the person and the crime, though. I know from personal experience. I was charged with a Class D felony but if I pleaded guilty it stayed with the judge and was more likely to be reduced to the misdemeanor (which it should have been in the first place) rather than the full on felony that it was likely to remain if brought before a jury. I guess it depends on geographical location, too.
Ooh, that's just scary. We avoid plea bargaining and the likes here, and I'm happy we do. That might change though, as they revise the laws at the moment...

I think the charge should stay the same, no matter what you plead.

I've got a terrible memory. I can't remember if it's the UK, or Japan *is embarrased*
Hehe, you almost got it right too, but I'm more like you :p


*Does not have Kiryu's luscious lips*

*Is Norwegian*

I can imagine the utopia that would be a bunch of Llewdors standing ten feet away from eachother and lacking the basic sentimentality to accept a gift in the spirit in which it is offered. Paradise.
You've presupposed the existence of such spirit. A bunch of Llewdors would do no such thing.

Hehe, you almost got it right too, but I'm more like you :p


*Does not have Kiryu's luscious lips

*Is Norwegian*Well I knew you weren't ethnically Japanese...just couldn't remember how many NSers are living there.

*still embarrased*

You've presupposed the existence of such spirit. A bunch of Llewdors would do no such thing.

What WOULD you do if someone tried to give you something? What would you think was going on?

Well I knew you weren't ethnically Japanese...just couldn't remember how many NSers are living there.

*still embarrased*

Eh, don't be. That's just a minor detail not worth fretting about :)

Now, for something on topic, I can mention our culture of not really tipping - not at restaurants nor anything else really.

Eh, don't be. That's just a minor detail not worth fretting about :)

Now, for something on topic, I can mention our culture of not really tipping - not at restaurants nor anything else really.
Ouch. I worked in the food service industry since I was 12...I tip even if the service wasn't great. I even tip barristas. Someone has to really piss me off to not tip. I don't care what the minimum wage is...NO ONE in those industries where tipping is normal makes enough money to justify not tipping at all. Here, anyway.

Ouch. I worked in the food service industry since I was 12...I tip even if the service wasn't great. I even tip barristas. Someone has to really piss me off to not tip. I don't care what the minimum wage is...NO ONE in those industries where tipping is normal makes enough money to justify not tipping at all. Here, anyway.

It's different here. Here they do make enough money, and the tip often don't end up in the hands of the serving staff - at least not the individual waitress or waiter.

So I tip when I've had an extraordinary good meal or good service, or when I for some reason feel it's right to do so. (Like when travelling abroad).

Knowing the difference in tipping culture in different countries, when to tip and how much, can be a science sometimes :p

I guess culturally, being from the south/ish we tend to be overly polite/respectful, my kids say "yes ma'am" when I ask them to do things, they say "yes sir" to their dad, we say it to people older than us when they ask us to do things...apparently this freaks out people from other areas and seems too authoritarian. Children call me Ms. <my first name> which bothers my husband, he thinks it should be Mrs. <my last name> but we grew up in different southern/ish communities, things are a bit more lax here, in fact it's almost acceptable to say "yeah" here instead of "yes" to your parents when they ask you a question....almost.

I am from the Chicagoland area. "Yes ma'am" and "yes, sir" would be considered extremely weird ways to address one's parents. Children call adults Mr./Ms./Mrs. <last name> unless they are friends of the family in which case they address them by their first name. Yeah is a perfectly acceptable way to answer a question from one's parents.

We say please and thank you to our children, they say it back to us, we say it maybe 50 times a day. There is an unspoken rule that you must be a perfect guest and a perfect host. If you don't see something on the table at dinner you don't ask for it, it's rude. If someone offers you something you turn it down 3 times before accepting. Things like that I guess count right?

We say please and thank you too, though 50 times a day appears excessive to me. I wonder how turning it down 3 times before accepting ever cam about.

What WOULD you do if someone tried to give you something? What would you think was going on?
I'd accept the gift. I don't mind receiving gifts.

But, generally speaking, giving non-cash gifts is less efficient than giving cash gifts. That's all I'm saying.

Yeah, I live in Austin and I never say "sir" or "ma'am."

It bugs me a lot.

Stopped saying sir after I was told "Don't call me sir, I work for a living". Not 100% sure what he meant by that (and it didn't dawn on me at the time to ask). But I think he was referring to Officers in the military .. haha.

Stopped saying ma'am after the women would get offended and think I was calling them old. So I started only saying it to really old women.. who don't care that they are old.

If I ask someone if they want something and they say no, the only thing they will here after that is ok or why not? Don't have to ask me twice. Not going to make people beg me and I'm not going to beg you. What a waste of energy.

Thank you and please are good manners. Especially thank you. But I wasn't taught that at home. I learned it from a friend and her family.

I don't brag. I have a hard time stating my strengths (that could also be that I'm just not sure what they are). If I don't catch myself I will naturally speak loud. My family always has. My girl friends do too. I never really noticed it until a guy I was dating years ago commented on how we all 'yelled'. I have a voice that will 'carry', like my mom had. Have to put forth effort for it to not. But I'm sure it's considered rude or obnoxious to some. But it's annoying to me when people don't speak up. So meh.

Eh, don't be. That's just a minor detail not worth fretting about :)

Now, for something on topic, I can mention our culture of not really tipping - not at restaurants nor anything else really.

Same here.

Ouch. I worked in the food service industry since I was 12...I tip even if the service wasn't great. I even tip barristas. Someone has to really piss me off to not tip. I don't care what the minimum wage is...NO ONE in those industries where tipping is normal makes enough money to justify not tipping at all. Here, anyway.

The minimum wage here is (from memory) something like AUD$12.50 p/h & that covers all workers, so tips are not neccessary.

Yeah, I live in Austin and I never say "sir" or "ma'am."

It bugs me a lot.

Saying sir & ma'am just sounds weird to me. It sounds more like you're taking the piss rather than being respectful. We almost exclusively call people by their first name here.

Thank you and please are good manners. Especially thank you. But I wasn't taught that at home. I learned it from a friend and her family.
I was taught please andthank you at home, but I never did it until I was an adult because I didn't see the point. The words struck me as a waste of time until I saw that people seem to be nicer to me when I use them.

So I use them.