NationStates Jolt Archive

UN and NATO troops battle Kosovan Serb rioters (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20080317/tpl-uk-kosovo-serbia-43a8d4f.html)

MITROVICA, Kosovo (Reuters) - Serbs fired guns and threw grenades at U.N. police and NATO troops in Kosovo on Monday in the worst violence since Albanian leaders declared Kosovo's independence from Serbia a month ago.

NATO said its troops came under automatic gunfire in the ethnically divided town of Mitrovica in northern Kosovo in clashes with Serbs, who oppose independence. The clashes began after U.N. special police backed by NATO peacekeepers stormed a U.N. court that had been seized by Serbs on Friday.

Serb media reports said about 70 civilians were wounded. U.N. police said 63 officers were injured, in addition to a dozen members of the NATO-led KFOR peacekeeping force.

The clashes highlighted the risk of Kosovo's partition along ethnic lines following the independence declaration on February 17. Serbia's ally Russia demanded restraint by NATO and Serbia said it was consulting Moscow on joint steps to protect Kosovo Serbs.

A Serbian party leader said NATO was behaving like the Nazi occupiers of World War Two. But a NATO spokesman said KFOR would not give in to violence.

It was the third major challenge to NATO and U.N. authority in the Serb-dominated north of Kosovo since protesters burned down two border posts last month. A European Union office was also forced to move out because of security threats.


Now, I'm going to say, I'm not much of a supporter of Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence, and I think it was folly for the US, UK and other nations to recognise it.

However, these aggressive actions perpetrated by Serbian nationalists, and the Serbian government's de facto approval and encouragement of them, are completely inexcusable.

UN police rightfully arrest Serbs illegally occupying a UN court, and the Serbs not only respond by throwing grenades and firing guns at them, but also have the temerity to accuse them of acting like Nazi occupiers?

And now Russia is seriously considering using this as an excuse to deploy thier own "peacekeepers" to undermine the UN/NATO force.

This could have been avoided if the Kosovan government had put its people before its political ego.

I think it was a mistake ever getting involved in this mess. Recognising Kosovan independence was a mistake as it could result in greater instability across the world. Now I'm not sure if any British troops are fighing this one (I heard recently we were sending 600 troops over), but if we are we shouldn't be. This isn't our conflict so we shouldn't be involved.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13534334']I think it was a mistake ever getting involved in this mess. Recognising Kosovan independence was a mistake as it could result in greater instability across the world. Now I'm not sure if any British troops are fighing this one (I heard recently we were sending 600 troops over), but if we are we shouldn't be. This isn't our conflict so we shouldn't be involved.

There are 200 British troops in Kosovo currently, with another 600 on the way as part of a quick reaction force to protect Kosovo. Last time I read of them they were defending those two border posts that were burned down last month.

It's turning out just as the Bosnian War did. Except this time, instead of Bosnian paramilitary hiding behind our British peacekeepers, it's a selfish Kosovan government that would rather flex nationalist politicians ego's than think of the welfare of the Kosovan people and safety of the peacekeepers.

Russias gonna deploy "peace keepers" now too?


Fan-fucking-tastic.

While it sure sucks to be injured, and I would not wish it on anyone, I think that the Serbs' use of force against the UN and NATO is morally justifiable, tragic though this situation is. NATO and the UN are ignoring the rights of the Serbian people, and as such are occupiers.

While it sure sucks to be injured, and I would not wish it on anyone, I think that the Serbs' use of force against the UN and NATO is morally justifiable, tragic though this situation is. NATO and the UN are ignoring the rights of the Serbian people, and as such are occupiers.

How is deploying ones self in a sovereign nation (Kosovo) at said nations request an occupation? Kosovo declared independence because the Serbs treated them like shit.


But ignoring whether it was right or wrong for Kosovo to declare independence, they are an independent nation now, and the government of Kosovo has request UN and NATO troop levels to be raised to protect them from such attacks while they are getting themselves on their feet. The Serbs clearly dont have the moral "right" in this situation no matter how you look at it.

If the Russians enter the ring in this conflict (which I believe they will if it goes on much longer) it will be little different from their aggressive foreign policy of the Soviet and Imperialist days. They would most likely attempt to set up a puppet state to support their interests in the region.

I mean, it's not like Russian involvement in the Balkans hasn't lead to anything bad in the past...

If the Russians enter the ring in this conflict (which I believe they will if it goes on much longer) it will be little different from their aggressive foreign policy of the Soviet and Imperialist days. They would most likely attempt to set up a puppet state to support their interests in the region.

I mean, it's not like Russian involvement in the Balkans hasn't lead to anything bad in the past...

I smell a proxy war! ;)

North Kosovo's battle for independence is now underway. NATO forces must leave the independent Rep of Northern Kosovo if they want the fighting to stop.

Northern Kosovo has every right to be an indepednent state. Precedent being Kosovo prime.

We should all just meet in a giant circle around the Balkans, and build an enormous wall around it.

Then fill it with cement. Problem solved.

How is deploying ones self in a sovereign nation (Kosovo) at said nations request an occupation? Kosovo declared independence because the Serbs treated them like shit.


But ignoring whether it was right or wrong for Kosovo to declare independence, they are an independent nation now, and the government of Kosovo has request UN and NATO troop levels to be raised to protect them from such attacks while they are getting themselves on their feet. The Serbs clearly dont have the moral "right" in this situation no matter how you look at it.

I would say that Kosovo's status as a sovereign nation is still very much in contention until the UN can universally agree to recognise it. Those who stand to gain from an independent Kosovo economically and politically, of course, recognise it. The opposite is true, and there are many nations still unwilling to voice an opinion.

And Kosovo can request more UN troops for it's own protection all it likes, a peacekeepers duty is to remain impartial and mediate conflict resolution, to defend the helpless, and spurn the aggressor's on both sides.

And Kosovo can request more UN troops for it's own protection all it likes, a peacekeepers duty is to remain impartial and mediate conflict resolution, to defend the helpless, and spurn the aggressor's on both sides.


And, in this case, as has been the case in every incident so far, the Serbs are the aggressor's. Therefore...

I smell a proxy war! ;)

It's been a while since we've had a good proxy war! :)

And, in this case, as has been the case in every incident so far, the Serbs are the aggressor's. Therefore...

The Serbians have everyright to their own nation in Northern Kosovo. This is because they are not Albanians and because of the Albanians genocide against Serbs in the 80's and 90's.

And, in this case, as has been the case in every incident so far, the Serbs are the aggressor's. Therefore...

If you want to use "aggressors" in a practical sense, yes. If you define aggressors as "the one's throwing rocks, shooting guns and throwing grenades", you would be right.

However, by declaring independence, the Kosovan government effectively started a rebellion within Serbia. They might not have thrown a single stone, but it has effectively declared defiant aggression against the truly sovereign authorities of Serbia, and should have been prepared to face the consequences.

More peaceful methods could have been sought, but ultimately, the stubborn uncompromising attitudes of the EU, US, Russia, Serbia and Kosovo scuppered them.

The UN and NATO forces, in the true spirit of Peacekeeping, should declare that thier mission is not to protect the Republic of Kosovo, or seek it's dissolution, but to protect the citizens of both the local Serbian and Albanian populations during these tumultuous times.

What happens in Kosovo now will not and cannot be decided by the soldiers on the ground, because it is not thier place to.

What happens now depends upon the peoples of all the afflicted nations to come to a compromise.

While it sure sucks to be injured, and I would not wish it on anyone, I think that the Serbs' use of force against the UN and NATO is morally justifiable

Even though the UN/NATO forces were attacked unprovokedly?

tragic though this situation is. NATO and the UN are ignoring the rights of the Serbian people, and as such are occupiers.

WTF? What about the rights of the Kosovars?

Kosovo has noright to illegally occupy Serbian KOsovo. It is like Macedonia occupying the greek province of Macedonia.

these aggressive actions perpetrated by Serbian nationalists, and the Serbian government's de facto approval and encouragement of them, are completely inexcusable.

No, these kind of actions explain the declaration of independence.

The Serbians have everyright to their own nation in Northern Kosovo. This is because they are not Albanians and because of the Albanians genocide against Serbs in the 80's and 90's.

A solution like a new 'Northern Kosovo' doesn't make sense because the 100k Serbians in N-Kosovo want to te part of Serbia.

The Serbians have everyright to their own nation in Northern Kosovo. This is because they are not Albanians and because of the Albanians genocide against Serbs in the 80's and 90's.

Who told you Kosovo's ideal is a homogenous nation consisting of Albanians ? The Kosovo PM Thaci stated that Kosovo is a country for all people currently living in Kosovo, regardless of origin. He stated that Kosovo is the home for Serbs, Albanians, Romani, Turks etc etc. currently living in Kosovo. He ensured their civil rights.

Even though the UN/NATO forces were attacked unprovokedly?
It wasn't exactly unprovoked now was it? If foreign armies were occupying my country's territory and facilitating a breakaway state against international law, I'd be pretty pissed.

Kosovo has noright to illegally occupy Serbian KOsovo. It is like Macedonia occupying the greek province of Macedonia.

Serbia had no right to ethnically cleane Kosovo, and now tastes the consequences.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13534818']It wasn't exactly unprovoked now was it?

Considering that the Serbs stormed and took the UN Courthouse...I call that a severe provocation.

If foreign armies were occupying my country's territory

Except for the simple fact that they are not occupying any territory but are there at the behest of Kosovo...

and facilitating a breakaway state against international law, I'd be pretty pissed.

I do not consider it a violation of International Law but if the serbs continue to use force...

Dear dear dear... 'tis the sorry story of the Balkans. All I can say is that the whole area has always been a powder keg, and that every now and then it flares up. Sometimes bigtime (a.k.a WWI). I hope we don't have that brewing here...

If people want sovereignity, and have good reason to, and will not pose a threat to their people, by all means let them. And if there are a minority who ain't happy, they can go back to where they want to. If they want to be part of Serbia, move over there instead.

Except for the simple fact that they are not occupying any territory but are there at the behest of Kosovo...

I do not consider it a violation of International Law but if the serbs continue to use force...
There's no UN resolution on the matter as most countries don't recognise Kosovo's independence and it wouldn't get through the security council. That would suggest that despite being a self-proclaimed independent state, international law says otherwise...

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13534878']There's no UN resolution on the matter as most countries don't recognise Kosovo's independence and it wouldn't get through the security council.

Irrelevent.

That would suggest that despite being a self-proclaimed independent state, international law says otherwise...

Ya know what? Internatinal Law is a bit sketchy on this one. Show me the law that states that a nation needs permission to secede and form their own state.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13534878']There's no UN resolution on the matter as most countries don't recognise Kosovo's independence and it wouldn't get through the security council. That would suggest that despite being a self-proclaimed independent state, international law says otherwise...

You are correct, sir.

The Kosovo situation is a unique and very unusual case, and currently the UN as a whole does not recognise Kosovo sovereignty. For all intents and purposes, Kosovo is a province of Serbia effectively in rebellion, until a compromise can be reached.

Ya know what? Internatinal Law is a bit sketchy on this one. Show me the law that states that a nation needs permission to secede and form their own state.
Hmmmm, it seems you're right on it being a little sketchy. I'm certainly no expert on issues of international law anyway. But still, I think it definitely sets a very dangerous precedent to do so outside the UN, and I don't think my country should be involved.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13534940']Hmmmm, it seems you're right on it being a little sketchy. I'm certainly no expert on issues of international law anyway. But still, I think it definitely sets a very dangerous precedent to do so outside the UN, and I don't think my country should be involved.

Judging by the Declaration of Independence of Kosovo that I read, it is not to be used as any sort of precedent at all.

Serbia had no right to ethnically cleane Kosovo, and now tastes the consequences.
I think the thing that makes this ambiguous is that this is of course the Balkans, and therefore no one is just a victim (http://www.un.org/icty/indictment/english/har-ii050224e.htm).

Anyways, as peacekeepers you'd think the minimum the soldiers there are allowed would be to defend themselves if they're being fired at. And considering that KFOR has significant firepower at its disposal, it might be time to deploy it.

Judging by the Declaration of Independence of Kosovo that I read, it is not to be used as any sort of precedent at all.
Just because the Kosovo declaration of independence says it's a special case and not a precedent doesn't make it so. The Russians have threatened the recognise the Georgian breakaway states of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and plenty of other separatist movements could use it as a precedent. It wasn't long ago that we had problems in Northern Ireland, with the Republic of Ireland claiming the north as their own. Our government wouldn't have been too chuffed if other countries decided to go ahead and recognising Northern Ireland as part of the Republic in order to get back on us over something. What short memories our government has.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13534991']Just because the Kosovo declaration of independence says it's a special case and not a precedent doesn't make it so. The Russians have threatened the recognise the Georgian breakaway states of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and plenty of other separatist movements could use it as a precedent. It wasn't long ago that we had problems in Northern Ireland, with the Republic of Ireland claiming the north as their own. Our government wouldn't have been too chuffed if other countries decided to go ahead and recognising Northern Ireland as part of the Republic in order to get back on us over something. What short memories our government has.
Now, this is a bit of an over-simplification.

Now, this is a bit of an over-simplification.
Of course it is, I didn't think it was appropriate to try and hijack a thread about Kosovo into one about Northern Ireland. But there are parallels, with the status of Northern Ireland being under dispute at that time. Under other international circumstances, countries we're not too friendly with could have quite easily used it as a way of scoring points against us.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13535030']Of course it is, I didn't think it was appropriate to try and hijack a thread about Kosovo into one about Northern Ireland. But there are parallels, with the status of Northern Ireland being under dispute at that time. Under other international circumstances, countries we're not too friendly with could have quite easily used it as a way of scoring points against us.
The big difference being, however, that Northern Ireland never declared (or its people supported) independence or asked for international recognition in the same way Kosovo did. The closest parallel I can draw betweeen Kosovo and Northern Ireland would be to force Northern Ireland into the Republic while its people desired otherwise.

I think that we sould let Kosovo be free from Serbia, and The UN Shoudn't be butting in. when Amercia declared independence, did it have to ask some dumb bakas in a Asbestos filled Building in New York if we could be Independet from The British Empire? NO!

I say let Kosovo Be a nation and tell The Russian and Serbs to BUT OUT!

The big difference being, however, that Northern Ireland never declared (or its people supported) independence or asked for international recognition in the same way Kosovo did. The closest parallel I can draw betweeen Kosovo and Northern Ireland would be to force Northern Ireland into the Republic while its people desired otherwise.
The IRA Army Council proclaimed themselves as being the legitimate provisional government of the Irish Republic (The self-proclaimed one that was formed during the Easter Rising, not the legitimate Republic of Ireland we know today). Some other hostile country could easily have seen things that way if they wanted. Anyway, we shouldn't get bogged down on discussing wether these examples coincide perfectly, what's important is acknowledging that recognising the independence of Kosovo could have serious implications in disputed reasons all across the world.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13535087']The IRA Army Council proclaimed themselves as being the legitimate provisional government of the Irish Republic (The self-proclaimed one that was formed during the Easter Rising, not the legitimate Republic of Ireland we know today). Some other hostile country could easily have seen things that way if they wanted. Anyway, we shouldn't get bogged down on discussing wether these examples coincide perfectly, what's important is acknowledging that recognising the independence of Kosovo could have serious implications in disputed reasons all across the world.

The Independence of America in 1776 did the same thing, and look at where we are, The USA being a Superpower and England not being part of The German or French Empires

The Independence of America in 1776 did the same thing, and look at where we are, The USA being a Superpower and England not being part of The German or French Empires
Different international situation back then, statehood was only a matter of wether or not you could sustain it through force of arms. International law was non-existant and there was no UN.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13535144']Different international situation back then, statehood was only a matter of wether or not you could sustain it through force of arms. International law was non-existant and there was no UN.

Actually...it existed but not to the extent today.

Just on principle, I think we should always recognise nations created through unilateral declarations of independence. If the declaration is supported by the people, and the people have an historical claim to the area, then by all means let them separate.

If they don't want to be in my country, I don't want them in my country, and it's not my place to tell them what to do.

As for Kosovo specifically, it is the powder keg of Europe. It's not really supposed to be at peace.

I BEFRIEND CHESTNUTS;13534991'] It wasn't long ago that we had problems in Northern Ireland, with the Republic of Ireland claiming the north as their own.

No. Dublin didn't claim "the North as it's own".

The government of the Republic of Ireland (and the clue is in the name) has always claimed, up until quite recently, to be the representative government of the island of Ireland (stemming from the War of Independence) - and as such, held onto their territorial claim to the island being one country. It was enshrined in the Constitution (Articles 2 and 3) up until recently.

/nit-pick

We should have never intervened in the first place. Damn Bill Clinton and his warmongering.

We should have never intervened in the first place. Damn Bill Clinton and his warmongering.

Its not warmongering when NATO and the US are asked to help stop a genocide.


For all Clinton's flaws, I dont fault this one.

How is deploying ones self in a sovereign nation (Kosovo) at said nations request an occupation? Kosovo declared independence because the Serbs treated them like shit.

But ignoring whether it was right or wrong for Kosovo to declare independence, they are an independent nation now, and the government of Kosovo has request UN and NATO troop levels to be raised to protect them from such attacks while they are getting themselves on their feet. The Serbs clearly dont have the moral "right" in this situation no matter how you look at it.

The Serbs quite clearly do not want to be a part of Kosovo, and the UN and NATO are quite clearly supporting the government that is forceably integrating them. If the right of secession is true for the West's friends, it should also be true for its enemies.

Even though the UN/NATO forces were attacked unprovokedly?

They provoked by the very nature of being there supporting the Kosovo government, which has allowed, if not de facto encouraged, the suffering of non-Albanians.

WTF? What about the rights of the Kosovars?

The Albanians have no right to compel the membership of Serbian Kosovars to their state. To say that they do would undermine the argument for Kosovo's independence.

Its not warmongering when NATO and the US are asked to help stop a genocide.

Warmongering is warmongering, regardless of intent.

The Serbs quite clearly do not want to be a part of Kosovo, and the UN and NATO are quite clearly supporting the government that is forceably integrating them. If the right of secession is true for the West's friends, it should also be true for its enemies.


So North Kosovo should remain part of Serbia.

So North Kosovo should remain part of Serbia.

If it chooses to do so, why not?

If it chooses to do so, why not?

Well, Kosovo isnt letting them. Which I think they should.

So North Kosovo should remain part of Serbia.
Are Serbs (or the people who would rather remain in Serbia) the traditional inhabitants of the area? If so, then they should well form some sort of pseudo-political body and declare independence from Kosovo.

Smaller countries serve their inhabitants better.

Am I sensing WORLD WAR 3?!?!?!?
:headbang: If we did... it would probaly destroy the world.... Let's hope Russia DOESN'T attack NATO and UN. :sniper:


:mp5:
:mp5:
:mp5:
PLEASE NOOOOO MORE WORLD WARS!!!
:mp5:
:mp5:
:mp5:


(i know this is off topic, so TOO BAD)

The Albanians have no right to compel the membership of Serbian Kosovars to their state. To say that they do would undermine the argument for Kosovo's independence.
Exactly. This is why, while I supported the right of Quebec to separate from Canada, I also supported the right of the aboriginal majority in northern Quebec to separate from Quebec.

However, I'm not allowing sub-national or sub-regional groups to opt-out of separation - simply to do it themselves. If North Kosovo wants to rejoin Serbia, I think they need Serbia's consent.

Am I sensing WORLD WAR 3?!?!?!?
:headbang: If we did... it would probaly destroy the world.... Let's hope Russia DOESN'T attack NATO and UN. :sniper:


:mp5:
:mp5:
:mp5:
PLEASE NOOOOO MORE WORLD WARS!!!
:mp5:
:mp5:
:mp5:



This is...without a doubt...the epitomy of an early NSG post. I salute you.

So North Kosovo should remain part of Serbia.

If they want to. Or they can form their own country. It is their decision, and the right of dissociation embodied in secession should never be restricted.

Hooray for continued Western Imperialism.

Hooray for continued Western Imperialism.

And Eastern Imperialism. Dont forget that.

And Eastern Imperialism. Dont forget that.

Yeah, the idea that its only the West with Imperialistic intrests in this is absurd. Russia is not innocent.

If it chooses to do so, why not?


For these reasons:


1) The main water supply on which all of Kosovo is dependent on, as well as it's electricity generators (for cooling) is situated in the Serb north.
In short Kosovo would be at hostage to the breakaway north for the most basic humanitarian needs. Considering how both sides in the last 400 years took any chance to genocide the other at the nearest opportunity that arose, this is not too good of a strategic fault.

2) Montenegro is 35% Serbian. Bosnia-Herzegovina is 40% Serbian. Croatia is 5% Serbian.

The main issue is in each of these countries the Serbians are not integrated into the main population but live in enclaves.

The ones living in Bosnia-Herzegovina already are autonomous and call themselves the Republic of Sprka. Bosnia is fervently trying to lessen the autonomy and bring it more into it's nationhood (due to natural resources, etc..).
A move by Kosovar Serbs to join with the main Serbian State, is feared to lead to a move by the Republic of Sprka to declare independence as well. This would cause a civil war in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
That happened once already. That Sprka tried to break away and join Serbia. Anyone remember the siege of Sarajevo? In short it would happen again. In a civil war in Bosnia, the Bosnian Serbs despite only being 40% of the population and being an autonomous region would most likely crush the Bosniak army even without support of Serbia. This is because the Republic of Sprka simply possesses a better army than the rest Bosnia-Herzegovina.

The Serbian enclaves in Croatia might also use the chaos to declare independence.

The Hungarian minority of the enclaves of Mures, Harghita, and Kovasna in Romania might also choose to declare independence. Since the movement for separation is growing very strong there as well.
Likewise the Hungarian minority in Komárno, Slovakia, which already has lots of autonomy could use it is a precedent for independence. Since as one can see by the sheer amount of hate crimes between Slovaks and Hungarians in the region, they hate eachother. Most Hungarians in the region would also prefer a separation and re-unification with Hungary.

Of course as well, during all this chaos Serbia could invade Kosovo to re-integrate it as a region of Serbia.



In short it has to do with preserving the very instable balance of South-Eastern Europe. In worst case scenario, note worst case. The whole region could explode with Bosnia-Herzegovina in a civil war, Croatia at war with Serbia which would probably go in to protect the Serbian minority from retaliatory military action after they declare independence. Montenegro in unrest as Serbia would probably re-occupy the whole of it, or at least the Serbian minority there separates. Slovakia in a state of civil unrest with it's Hungarian minority declaring independence, same with Romania and it's Hungarian minority.

In short it's one fuse to the powder keg. So the US+EU are not willing to open the precedent with the Serb Kosovars. Since it could erupt into a war even worse than the first Balkan conflict.

The Balkans have always been in chaos since the dawn of Humans in that Region. The Mycenean Greeks had been Conquering themselves and The lands of Crete and Troy around the Bronze Age, The Dorians were killing people and causeing War at the end of the Bronze Age. The Persians Invaded Greece many times, and Who could forget The wars between Sparta and Athens. Then came The Romans, Who fought the Greeks and Goths and others, then came the Byzantine Empire, the The Fourth Crusade, then came the Turks, Greek Revot against The Turks, The Balkan Wars, World Wars I and II and all others.

The Balkans are more bloodly then The Middle east is.

The Balkans have always been in chaos since the dawn of Humans in that Region. The Mycenean Greeks had been Conquering themselves and The lands of Crete and Troy around the Bronze Age, The Dorians were killing people and causeing War at the end of the Bronze Age. The Persians Invaded Greece many times, and Who could forget The wars between Sparta and Athens. Then came The Romans, Who fought the Greeks and Goths and others, then came the Byzantine Empire, the The Fourth Crusade, then came the Turks, Greek Revot against The Turks, The Balkan Wars, World Wars I and II and all others.

The Balkans are more bloodly then The Middle east is.

Anywhere there is a major crossroads of culture/religion you will have war.

We should all just meet in a giant circle around the Balkans, and build an enormous wall around it.

Then fill it with cement. Problem solved.
No, that would be the middle east. But still a good idea.

They provoked by the very nature of being there supporting the Kosovo government, which has allowed, if not de facto encouraged, the suffering of non-Albanians.

Back up the assertion that the Kosovo government is supporting the suffering of non-Albanians.

The Albanians have no right to compel the membership of Serbian Kosovars to their state. To say that they do would undermine the argument for Kosovo's independence.

They are not compelling anything Venndee.

Warmongering is warmongering, regardless of intent.

I'd say it's pretty damn important to stop genocidal acts taking place. If a war's already being waged, as was the case, there's no reason not to go in there and stop them from killing each other mercilessly.

Course, now that these various countries' people have posted comments on youtube, I feel more and more hopeless for them. They really do not want to learn from everything I see. I could understand if you had a minority of them with the attitudes that I have seen, but never have I seen any attitudes from that region be supportive of any peace measure.

Perhaps this is because all the ones supportive of peace decided to gtfo.

... The ones living in Bosnia-Herzegovina already are autonomous and call themselves the Republic of Sprka...
Good facts in your post but you mis-spelled "Srpska" throughout ("Srp" is how Serbs spell "Serb", and "sk" is like "-ish")

Back up the assertion that the Kosovo government is supporting the suffering of non-Albanians.

The Kosovo government has sat idly by while hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Roma, and others have been driven from their homes by Albanians, as well as caused destruction, death and mayhem. This all under the watch of the supposed enlightened West and the Kosovo government. How much of this is a part of laziness, and how much of it is intentional (we know for sure that this is organized violence, that extremist elements of the Kosovo government have actively aided this treatment, and it would be complementary to the ideal of a Greater Albania), I cannot say.

They are not compelling anything Venndee.

If that was true, they would let them secede, but they and the West are adamant that what right was given to the Albanians be denied to the Serbs despite their horrendous ongoing treatment.

The Kosovo government has sat idly by while hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Roma, and others have been driven from their homes by Albanians, as well as caused destruction, death and mayhem.

Link?

If that was true, they would let them secede, but they and the West are adamant that what right was given to the Albanians be denied to the Serbs despite their horrendous ongoing treatment.

Link?

Personally, I'm against Nationalism of any kind and nation but I'm never going to support world capitaloids like UN & NATO. The UN & NATO army in the Balkans is occupation army. They have no right to intervene in Serbia's or Albania's politics.

Personally, I'm against Nationalism of any kind and nation but I'm never going to support world capitaloids like UN & NATO. The UN & NATO army in the Balkans is occupation army. They have no right to intervene in Serbia's or Albania's politics.

So you would rather have the genocide that was going on when NATO intervened?

The Serbs are right to take up arms against the NATO imperialist forces, but they are going about it wrong. The criticism should be not from an ethnic-nationalist point of view, but instead a popular view which is opposing the complete privatization and selling off of Kosovo to giant Western corporations, and making Kosovo a US/NATO capitalist client state.

So you would rather have the genocide that was going on when NATO intervened?
Genocide was an excuse, the main reason was to try and liquidate the solidarity created by Tito and fuel the flames of right-wing nationalism to divide the former Yugoslav into tiny capitalist outposts complete with NATO occupying forces to keep the people down.

Kosovo was once the industrial heartland of Yugoslavia, not it has 60% unemployment, the factories are quiet and are owned by private foreign business, and the only employment is working for the occupiers. Yeah, 'independence' is great!

The Serbs are right to take up arms against the NATO imperialist forces, but they are going about it wrong. The criticism should be not from an ethnic-nationalist point of view, but instead a popular view which is opposing the complete privatization and selling off of Kosovo to giant Western corporations, and making Kosovo a US/NATO capitalist client state.


Exactly on the spot Andaras.

Corneliu, no I don't condone genocides of any kind. Both the Serbian goverment and the UCK are war criminals in my view. But do you remember what happened when NATO intervened? Do you remember the bombings that costed innocent lifes? NATO made it worse as always.

-snip-

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2004/07/27/serbia9136.htm
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/kosovo0704/7.htm

If the West wanted to prove that it was truly concerned for minority rights, it would not block northern Kosovo's secession.

Exactly on the spot Andaras.

Corneliu, no I don't condone genocides of any kind. Both the Serbian goverment and the UCK are war criminals in my view. But do you remember what happened when NATO intervened? Do you remember the bombings that costed innocent lifes? NATO made it worse as always.

Yes I do. I also remember my father flying in generators for a childrens hospital around Christmas time while being shot at by Serbian forces. And I am glad that you do not condone genocide but it would still have continued if it was not stopped. Now only if we can stop it in Darfur...

Yes I do. I also remember my father flying in generators for a childrens hospital around Christmas time while being shot at by Serbian forces. And I am glad that you do not condone genocide but it would still have continued if it was not stopped. Now only if we can stop it in Darfur...
Yes that's right, send American troops into a country where the whole population think you are infidels, I am relishing to see the result. In fact I encourage it.

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2004/07/27/serbia9136.htm
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/kosovo0704/7.htm

If the West wanted to prove that it was truly concerned for minority rights, it would not block northern Kosovo's secession.

Both are from 2004 so do you have anything more current? And what makes you think they are blocking northern Kosovo's secession? They have not yet seceded so you can't block something that has not happened.

Yes that's right, send American troops into a country where the whole population think you are infidels, I am relishing to see the result. In fact I encourage it.

Sorry but I do not feed trolls.

No I think we need to keep it Safe so :sniper: if we go to war so be it

I think that nato and the un should leave serbia and never look back.

I think that nato and the un should leave serbia and never look back.

Sounds good to me.

I think that nato and the un should leave serbia and never look back.

I agree. I also wish that someday they would stop intervene. Seriously, to all the supporters of UN and NATO. They are not liberators. I've seen it with my eyes in my own country. They just try to promote US policies. Now they are just trying to break the stability of the Balkan area. A new Balkan War would be great for them cause only in that way they could establish a puppet nation of theirs.

I agree. I also wish that someday they would stop intervene. Seriously, to all the supporters of UN and NATO. They are not liberators. I've seen it with my eyes in my own country. They just try to promote US policies. Now they are just trying to break the stability of the Balkan area. A new Balkan War would be great for them cause only in that way they could establish a puppet nation of theirs.

Somebody needs to stop listening to propaganda!

I agree. I also wish that someday they would stop intervene. Seriously, to all the supporters of UN and NATO. They are not liberators. I've seen it with my eyes in my own country. They just try to promote US policies. Now they are just trying to break the stability of the Balkan area. A new Balkan War would be great for them cause only in that way they could establish a puppet nation of theirs.
Regardless of whether your country does or does not see the UN and/or NATO as liberators, the vast majority of Kosovars do, and do not want to be a part of Serbia. The reason that the UN, NATO and now the EU are there is because the Kosovar Albanians want independence, which the UN, NATO and the EU gurantee. Kosovo has its own government elected by its people which supports this.

This reminds me of the build up to WW1...like, almost exactly the same, lol....:headbang::sniper:

Regardless of whether your country does or does not see the UN and/or NATO as liberators, the vast majority of Kosovars do, and do not want to be a part of Serbia. The reason that the UN, NATO and now the EU are there is because the Kosovar Albanians want independence, which the UN, NATO and the EU gurantee. Kosovo has its own government elected by its people which supports this.

First of all, I am not from Serbia. I am from Greece.

Second, I support the independence of Kosovo. I support every population that wants its independence as it simply helps to decrease the power of the states (personally, I consider states unnecessary). But NATO and UN troops are nothing but common occupying forces.

Look, in my country (and in any Balkan state) there are two trends. The nationalists that are Russophiles and the "liberals" that are Americanophiles. Personally, I am against both Russophilia and Americanophilia. I think that we should leave the Cold War stage behind us.

Both are from 2004 so do you have anything more current? And what makes you think they are blocking northern Kosovo's secession? They have not yet seceded so you can't block something that has not happened.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/02/15/serbia18053.htm And Human Rights Watch continues to report on the abysmal state of Kosovo's treatment of minorities. And actually, Prime Minister Hasim Thaci has said that he is in constant contact with NATO to prevent North Kosovo's secession, and that body has acted to prevent it with the tightening of control in that area.

NATO should stay in Kosovo, or don't any one remember what happened when The US Military left Vietnam?

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/02/15/serbia18053.htm And Human Rights Watch continues to report on the abysmal state of Kosovo's treatment of minorities. And actually, Prime Minister Hasim Thaci has said that he is in constant contact with NATO to prevent North Kosovo's secession, and that body has acted to prevent it with the tightening of control in that area.

Could it also be because of what will happen if they do?

And this is pre-independence vote. Anything after that?

I don't trust the Serbs one bit, their behavior indicates they are basically the same rapid ethnic nationalists since the Chetnik days.

I don't trust the Serbs one bit, their behavior indicates they are basically the same rapid ethnic nationalists since the Chetnik days.

Never thought I'd say this, but we actually agree on one thing: I hate ethnic nationalism, too.

Could it also be because of what will happen if they do?

And this is pre-independence vote. Anything after that?

Kosovo has no right to declare that it has a right to secession if they will deny the right of dissociation to its citizens who have quite obviously been mistreated. In fact, they have absolutely no right to bar any section of the population, no matter how small and for whatever reason, from the ability to secede. They have chosen political power over non-Albanians over not expropriating their rights.

Also, http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/03/10/serbia18233.htm. Are you quite done with this silly game of constantly denying any wrongdoing on NATO and the Kosovo's government's part, or are you now going to ask me for an article from a minute ago just to make sure that they haven't magically fixed Kosovo's treatment of its minorities in the last thirty seconds?

Kosovo has no right to declare that it has a right to secession if they will deny the right of dissociation to its citizens who have quite obviously been mistreated. They have chosen political power over non-Albanians over granting them their rights.

Also, http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/03/10/serbia18233.htm. Are you quite done with this silly game of constantly denying any wrongdoing on NATO and the Kosovo's government's part, or are you now going to ask me for an article from a minute ago just to make sure that they haven't magically fixed Kosovo's treatment of its minorities in the last thirty seconds?
Yeah, you'll argue that NATO has done wrong, yet most likely you will refuse to condemn the economic privatization of near the entire Kosovo economy to Western capitalist firms. I smell hypocrisy.

Yeah, you'll argue that NATO has done wrong, yet most likely you will refuse to condemn the economic privatization of near the entire Kosovo economy to Western capitalist firms. I smell hypocrisy.

How the hell is that hypocrisy?

Yeah, you'll argue that NATO has done wrong, yet most likely you will refuse to condemn the economic privatization of near the entire Kosovo economy to Western capitalist firms. I smell hypocrisy.

Actually, I despise the privatization of Serbian state-owned assets. Those belonged to the people who were expropriated to finance them (i.e. taxpayers of Serbia), not to UNMIK's supporters and cronies.

Kosovo has no right to declare that it has a right to secession if they will deny the right of dissociation to its citizens who have quite obviously been mistreated.

They are not denying anything right now Venndee. All the articles I have read make no mention of them doing so.

In fact, they have absolutely no right to bar any section of the population, no matter how small and for whatever reason, from the ability to secede. They have chosen political power over non-Albanians over not expropriating their rights.

Keep thinking that. Its obvious no matter the logic, it isn't going to get through that anarchist brain of yours.

Also, http://hrw.org/english/docs/2008/03/10/serbia18233.htm. Are you quite done with this silly game of constantly denying any wrongdoing on NATO and the Kosovo's government's part, or are you now going to ask me for an article from a minute ago just to make sure that they haven't magically fixed Kosovo's treatment of its minorities in the last thirty seconds?

I have already read the article knowing full well you will post it and guess what? Nothing in there about EU or NATO wrong doing. Do you even read these articles before posting? Its obvious that you don't. Hell it even states that steps are being taken.

Until such time as you wisen up, I'm done here because it is obvious you really do not know much.

This reminds me of the build up to WW1...like, almost exactly the same, lol....:headbang::sniper:Except for the interdependent trading blocs, transparent international agreements, and nuclear weapons...

Keep thinking that. Its obvious no matter the logic, it isn't going to get through that anarchist brain of yours.

Ok, that's it Corneliu. Saying that Venndee is an anarchist just doesn't make any sense. Like denying the crimes of NATO. Really, just get your facts straight.

Ok, that's it Corneliu. Saying that Venndee is an anarchist just doesn't make any sense. Like denying the crimes of NATO. Really, just get your facts straight.Actually, considering some of Venndee's viewpoints, it makes perfect sense.

Ok, that's it Corneliu. Saying that Venndee is an anarchist just doesn't make any sense. Like denying the crimes of NATO. Really, just get your facts straight.

Actually, considering some of Venndee's viewpoints, it makes perfect sense.

And Vendee himself has stated as such in other debates that he's been involved in.

And Vendee himself has stated as such in other debates that he's been involved in.

Seeing that his nation is on the libertarian region I cannot consider him an anarchist. Even individualist anarchists (which is the ideology that gets closer to my beliefs) cannot be considered libertarianism.

Seeing that his nation is on the libertarian region I cannot consider him an anarchist. Even individualist anarchists (which is the ideology that gets closer to my beliefs) cannot be considered libertarianism.Right click on his name, choose "Open in a new tab (or window, if you like)". Then click on the option that says "Show all posts by this user". Then read them. Then you can come back and tell us he's not an anarchist.

Besides, anarchy and libertarian opposition to central governments go hand in hand. They are by no means mutually exclusive.

Right click on his name, choose "Open in a new tab (or window, if you like)". Then click on the option that says "Show all posts by this user". Then read them. Then you can come back and tell us he's not an anarchist.

Besides, anarchy and libertarian opposition to central governments go hand in hand. They are by no means mutually exclusive.

The most amusing thing, however, has been how he picks and chooses which central governments are okay.

NATO, US, EU? Not okay. They're not allowed to protect even the people who ask kindly for their protection.

Serbia? Perfectly okay. They're even allowed to oppress and such, because those damn Kosovars could even consider making their own government.

The most amusing thing, however, has been how he picks and chooses which central governments are okay.

NATO, US, EU? Not okay. They're not allowed to protect even the people who ask kindly for their protection.

Serbia? Perfectly okay. They're even allowed to oppress and such, because those damn Kosovars could even consider making their own government.

Yea it is.

The NATO crimes ?

Sure, we are the ones who decided to shoot first, on good civilians, so good they decided to came to a peacefull occupation of a government office with machine-gun, grenades and rocket launchers. The Serbians have a funny definition of " pacifist ".

I am French, I was against the unilateral independance of Kosovo because backing it is accepting that a UN resolution is crap and that we have to defend a "country" who is led by the head of a criminal group.
Incidently, we have to fund them because this country own absolutly nothing.

But, still, I don't think we could say that we are oppressing peoples, this is offensing lies.

Kosovo shouldn't have gone and left serbia, nothing but bad has come of it.

Nothing good came of Kosovo when it was in Serbia. When you've effectively been a second class region within a state for almost ninety years it is hardly surprising that they think they can do better even with the limited self governance the EU mission offers.

For these reasons:


1) The main water supply on which all of Kosovo is dependent on, as well as it's electricity generators (for cooling) is situated in the Serb north.
In short Kosovo would be at hostage to the breakaway north for the most basic humanitarian needs. Considering how both sides in the last 400 years took any chance to genocide the other at the nearest opportunity that arose, this is not too good of a strategic fault.


thats sort of their own fault... I don't think we should force people to be part of a country they don't want to be part of just cause the one would become dependent on the other in some form.


2) Montenegro is 35% Serbian. Bosnia-Herzegovina is 40% Serbian. Croatia is 5% Serbian.

The main issue is in each of these countries the Serbians are not integrated into the main population but live in enclaves.

The ones living in Bosnia-Herzegovina already are autonomous and call themselves the Republic of Sprka. Bosnia is fervently trying to lessen the autonomy and bring it more into it's nationhood (due to natural resources, etc..).

A move by Kosovar Serbs to join with the main Serbian State, is feared to lead to a move by the Republic of Sprka to declare independence as well. This would cause a civil war in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
That happened once already. That Sprka tried to break away and join Serbia. Anyone remember the siege of Sarajevo? In short it would happen again. In a civil war in Bosnia, the Bosnian Serbs despite only being 40% of the population and being an autonomous region would most likely crush the Bosniak army even without support of Serbia. This is because the Republic of Sprka simply possesses a better army than the rest Bosnia-Herzegovina.

good, I hope they can break away, the Bosnians have no business keeping these people in a country they don't want to be in, same shit different toilet. Even back in the day we wouldn't support this, since they apparently don't even have military strength equal to a minority of the populace, they deserve freedom in my view.

The Serbian enclaves in Croatia might also use the chaos to declare independence.

The Hungarian minority of the enclaves of Mures, Harghita, and Kovasna in Romania might also choose to declare independence. Since the movement for separation is growing very strong there as well.
Likewise the Hungarian minority in Komárno, Slovakia, which already has lots of autonomy could use it is a precedent for independence. Since as one can see by the sheer amount of hate crimes between Slovaks and Hungarians in the region, they hate eachother. Most Hungarians in the region would also prefer a separation and re-unification with Hungary.

Sounds like we can make alot of people happy by just redrawing some lines to reflect the current locations of ethnicities- I don't see a problem besides the whining each country involved would do.
Of course as well, during all this chaos Serbia could invade Kosovo to re-integrate it as a region of Serbia.


In short it has to do with preserving the very instable balance of South-Eastern Europe. In worst case scenario, note worst case. The whole region could explode with Bosnia-Herzegovina in a civil war, Croatia at war with Serbia which would probably go in to protect the Serbian minority from retaliatory military action after they declare independence. Montenegro in unrest as Serbia would probably re-occupy the whole of it, or at least the Serbian minority there separates. Slovakia in a state of civil unrest with it's Hungarian minority declaring independence, same with Romania and it's Hungarian minority.
Perhaps, but I think in the long term, stability will be achieved when these people learn to live together (unlikely) or by allowing them to separate as they wish, which should be the right of any citizen. Also, I doubt the Serbians would try to reoccupy anything, unless they want a beat down from the UN like before.

In short it's one fuse to the powder keg. So the US+EU are not willing to open the precedent with the Serb Kosovars. Since it could erupt into a war even worse than the first Balkan conflict.

I think they already allowed a precedent when they supported Kosovo's independence (which may lead to a war worse than the first Balkan conflict), regardless of them claiming otherwise, I can't see how it wouldn't apply to other areas.

By the laws that most countries have, that declaring a part of someone elses country as your own is an act of war, and if Serbia wants to march in and deal with these aggressors, then so be it

screw the US and the UN with their "help the little guy" big brother crap - Kosovo is not their problem, its Serbia's problem, leave Serbia to fix it

By the laws that most countries have, that declaring a part of someone elses country as your own is an act of war, and if Serbia wants to march in and deal with these aggressors, then so be it

screw the US and the UN with their "help the little guy" big brother crap - Kosovo is not their problem, its Serbia's problem, leave Serbia to fix it

First, no else country appropriate Serbian soil, Kosovo declared independance.

Second, leaving the problem to Serbia...with a new genocide ?

We couldn't help Tibet and Tchetchnia because of the political and economic repercussions, it doesn't mean we have to admit a slaughter at our own door.

And let me reming you that I'm saying that even if I was against Kosovo independance, their autonom status was fair enough for me.

They are not denying anything right now Venndee. All the articles I have read make no mention of them doing so.

Hashim Thaci has made it quite clear that he has no intent on not having "one inch" of Kosovo secede, because of "territorial integrity" and the like. This is an act of compulsion.

Keep thinking that. Its obvious no matter the logic, it isn't going to get through that anarchist brain of yours.

Nice ad-hominem. Now, do you have an actual argument to show this 'logic'?

I have already read the article knowing full well you will post it and guess what? Nothing in there about EU or NATO wrong doing. Do you even read these articles before posting? Its obvious that you don't. Hell it even states that steps are being taken.

Until such time as you wisen up, I'm done here because it is obvious you really do not know much.[/QUOTE]

Actually, the very first paragraph says

The new European Union-led international mission to Kosovo must be subject to much greater scrutiny and accountability than its predecessor, the United Nations Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK), if it is to succeed, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and the Norwegian Helsinki Committee said today. The NATO-led Kosovo Force should also be subject to much greater scrutiny.

indicating that the two above have indeed failed in their duty to protect those in need. It also goes on to specific failures, such as UNMIK's killings of protestors in February 2007 or NATO's complete lack of accountability. Just because you cherry-picked one weak comment about "steps being taken" hardly changes the intense suffering caused under the West's watch or adequately supports your point.

The most amusing thing, however, has been how he picks and chooses which central governments are okay.

NATO, US, EU? Not okay. They're not allowed to protect even the people who ask kindly for their protection.

Serbia? Perfectly okay. They're even allowed to oppress and such, because those damn Kosovars could even consider making their own government.

Actually, I've said that I consider the government of Serbia to be quite degenerate, too, much like the West's (though as a person of Slavic descent I find common ground with the Serbian people against imperialists.) However, this does not excuse NATO/US/EU's support of a mafia state (along with its support of various other murderous scoundrels in that region), its failure to protect those who are being harmed by Western client states, or its targetting of civilians and their homes and economies in its bombings. Indeed, the Western central governments are so much more powerful that their acts have far greater evil effects than that of the battered and destitute nation of Serbia (Serbia didn't invade Iraq, after all.) As such, opposition to the world-spanning Western anaconda is far more crucial than opposition to the one-winged mosquito of Serbia.

Hashim Thaci has made it quite clear that he has no intent on not having "one inch" of Kosovo secede, because of "territorial integrity" and the like. This is an act of compulsion.

Source?

Actually, I've said that I consider the government of Serbia to be quite degenerate, too, much like the West's (though as a person of Slavic descent I find common ground with the Serbian people against imperialists.) However, this does not excuse NATO/US/EU's support of a mafia state (along with its support of various other murderous scoundrels in that region), its failure to protect those who are being harmed by Western client states, or its targetting of civilians and their homes and economies in its bombings. Indeed, the Western central governments are so much more powerful that their acts have far greater evil effects than that of the battered and destitute nation of Serbia (Serbia didn't invade Iraq, after all.) As such, opposition to the world-spanning Western anaconda is far more crucial than opposition to the one-winged mosquito of Serbia.

You know what? When you try to bring in IRAQ of all things in a discussion about SERBIA vs KOSOVO, that earns you a direct line right into my ignore list.

You clearly can't get your head around the fact that just because NATO is "evil" doesn't mean that Kosovo deserves to be put under the brutality of Serbia. Nor does Serbia deserve to be put under the brutality of Kosovo. If you really wanted to be against central government, you'd be denouncing both sides and claiming that the people in the area deserve local autonomy at the very least.

Clearly, however, you are not even close to being an anarchist. You're just a Serbian apologist from all I've read. Please don't take it as a flame - that is not my intention. I'm just trying to tell you how I've interpreted your posts. If that is offensive to you, then I suggest you look at your own wording and consider whether you truly mean what you write.

In any case, I don't intend to get riled up anymore by this.

Source?

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L26918399.htm

... we will not allow the territorial integrity of Kosovo to be compromised.

A seceding northern Kosovo would obviously preclude the territorial integrity of Kosovo as its population changes which state they belong to.

I am constantly in contact with NATO to prevent anyone from touching even one inch of Kosovo's territory.

And seeing as how NATO has tightened their controls over northern Kosovo, NATO would seem to agree with preventing north Kosovo's secession.

-snip-

There are a number of things I'd like to say in response, as I do think that you have misinterpreted me, but now that you have (at least declared to have) ignored me, there wouldn't be very much point in an elaboration.

Serbia is just plain useless.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L26918399.htm

Any other sources?

Both are from 2004 so do you have anything more current? And what makes you think they are blocking northern Kosovo's secession? They have not yet seceded so you can't block something that has not happened.

What? Yes you can! That's what blocking is, the prevention of something that has yet to happen from happening.

What? Yes you can! That's what blocking is, the prevention of something that has yet to happen from happening.

I'm not seeing it and I have read the links.

I'm not seeing it and I have read the links.

Oh, don't mistake me: I'm not agreeing with Vendee. Thus far he hasn't provided any credible evidence for his allegations. (Though if he does I will certainly acknowledge it, because it would be a very serious situation.)

I was just pointing out that you seem to misunderstand what blocking is, that's all.

Any other sources?

This is a Reuters article- you will find it in about a thousand other places, like here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080226/wl_nm/kosovo_serbia_dc_8) or here (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=4345104). And they all say the same thing; Hashim Thaci will not allow north Kosovo's secession, even if it is what Kosovar Serbs want.

Oh, don't mistake me: I'm not agreeing with Vendee. Thus far he hasn't provided any credible evidence for his allegations. (Though if he does I will certainly acknowledge it, because it would be a very serious situation.)

I was just pointing out that you seem to misunderstand what blocking is, that's all.

Hashim Thaci has quite clearly said that he will not allow north Kosovo's secession, not even 'one inch.' Hence why NATO has been stepping up security and locking down north Kosovo.

This is a Reuters article- you will find it in about a thousand other places, like here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080226/wl_nm/kosovo_serbia_dc_8) or here (http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=4345104). And they all say the same thing; Hashim Thaci will not allow north Kosovo's secession, even if it is what Kosovar Serbs want.

we will not allow the territorial integrity of Kosovo to be compromised.

The above quote mentions nothing of stopping a "secession" from Kosovo. Now where the fuck is the link that says that he will not allow it. I'll wait.

Thaci has quite clearly said that he will not allow north Kosovo's secession, not even 'one inch.' Hence why NATO has been stepping up security and locking down north Kosovo.

Then where is the quote that says he will not allow Northern Kosovo to seceed? All I'm seeing is the fact that he does not want Serbia compromising his nation. That's all I am seeing. Now provide the fucking quote.

The above quote mentions nothing of stopping a "secession" from Kosovo. Now where the fuck is the link that says that he will not allow it. I'll wait.



Then where is the quote that says he will not allow Northern Kosovo to seceed? All I'm seeing is the fact that he does not want Serbia compromising his nation. That's all I am seeing. Now provide the fucking quote.

It specifically mentions that the Serb Kosovars want to be under Serbia's jurisdiction, not Kosovo's (hence their visible opposition such as their attack on the UN courthouse), and that Serbia is willing to do such a thing.

Kostunica has pledged that Serbian jurisdiction will be upheld wherever "loyal citizens" -- not Albanians -- look to Belgrade for government.

Some 120,000 Serbs remain in Kosovo, just under half in the north in a slice of land that runs adjacent to Serbia and where Serbs seem intent on cutting remaining ties with Pristina.

Hashim Thaci is opposed to this, hence why he has said he will not yield 'one inch,' and why NATO has increased its control in north Kosovo.

It specifically mentions that the Serb Kosovars want to be under Serbia's jurisdiction, not Kosovo's (hence their visible opposition such as their attack on the UN courthouse), and that Serbia is willing to do such a thing.





Hashim Thaci is opposed to this, hence why he has said he will not yield 'one inch,' and why NATO has increased its control in north Kosovo.

You really are having a hard time reading in context aren't you?

Kostunica has pledged that Serbian jurisdiction will be upheld wherever "loyal citizens" -- not Albanians -- look to Belgrade for government.

He's the Serbian leader. Of course he's going to say something like this. I also expected the Kosovar President to say what he said about territorial integrity. As of right now, a blockage is not actually occuring but that the Serbs are trying to interfer in the affairs of a soveriegn nation. Something I notice you constently condemn but for some reason not condemning here.

And I am still waiting for this once inch line you keep referring to.

You really are having a hard time reading in context aren't you?

Obviously not as much as you. You seem to have difficulty understanding that north Kosovo Serbs want to be under Belgrade's jurisdiction, not Pristina's, yet they are still under Pristina's control despite their wishes to the contrary. Lacking compulsion, this would not happen, but seeing as how they are still part of Pristina's rule this necessarily means there is compulsion, namely NATO's increased presence in the north.

He's the Serbian leader. Of course he's going to say something like this. I also expected the Kosovar President to say what he said about territorial integrity. As of right now, a blockage is not actually occuring but that the Serbs are trying to interfer in the affairs of a soveriegn nation. Something I notice you constently condemn but for some reason not condemning here.

If they truly wanted to allow north Kosovo's secession, they could easily have done so years ago by withdrawing from that region and allowing them to rejoin their people. Of course, seeing as how secession necessarily precludes territorial integrity (and the irredentist dream of Greater Albania) and the West has taken more control of north Kosovo, there are indications to the contrary.

And I am still waiting for this once inch line you keep referring to.

Obviously, you did not read the articles if you did not see the one-inch statement.

"I am constantly in contact with NATO to prevent anyone from touching even one inch of Kosovo's territory," Thaci, a former guerrilla commander, told reporters in Racak

*snip irrelevency*

Obviously, you did not read the articles if you did not see the one-inch statement.

Look at the statement again and explain to me how it proves your point? I'm good at reading between the lines but really...tell me how this is preventing Northern Kosovo from seceeding or yet, blocking them from doing so?

Look at the statement again and explain to me how it proves your point? I'm good at reading between the lines but really...tell me how this is preventing Northern Kosovo from seceeding or yet, blocking them from doing so?

The north Serbs do not want to be under Pristina, but instead under Belgrade's jurisdiction like Kostunica says. This necessarily entails someone (Serbia) "touching... one inch of Kosovo's territory." Seeing as how Pristina has kept north Kosovo under their control for years now despite the Kosovar Serbs objections, it is quite obvious that they consider north Kosovo part of Kosovo's territory.

The north Serbs do not want to be under Pristina, but instead under Belgrade's jurisdiction like Kostunica says. This necessarily entails someone (Serbia) "touching... one inch of Kosovo's territory." Seeing as how Pristina has kept north Kosovo under their control for years now despite the Kosovar Serbs objections, it is quite obvious that they consider north Kosovo part of Kosovo's territory.

Which does make sense. However, it is not serbian territory right now and any attempt by the Serbs to take it or to rile it up, is violating the territorial integrity of Kosovo. Are you for or against interferring in the internal affairs of another nation.

Are you for or against interferring in the internal affairs of another nation.

Oh, the irony.

Which does make sense. However, it is not serbian territory right now and any attempt by the Serbs to take it or to rile it up, is violating the territorial integrity of Kosovo. Are you for or against interferring in the internal affairs of another nation.

That's a loaded question, as it assumes that I actually recognize titles of territorial monopolies on jurisdiction, which I don't. The choice of Kosovar Serbs of whether or not to secede is theirs alone, and not the US' or the EU's, who oppose it. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7269194.stm)

That's a loaded question, as it assumes that I actually recognize titles of territorial monopolies on jurisdiction, which I don't. The choice of Kosovar Serbs of whether or not to secede is theirs alone, and not the US' or the EU's, who oppose it. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7269194.stm)

And who proposed it?

And who proposed it?

Whoever proposed it is entirely irrelevant. If the Kosovar Serbs want to secede, it doesn't matter whether Mother Theresa or Joseph Stalin proposed it to them, because it is their right to dissociate.

Whoever proposed it is entirely irrelevant.

For this discussion, it is very relevent.

If the Kosovar Serbs want to secede, it doesn't matter whether Mother Theresa or Joseph Stalin proposed it to them, because it is their right to dissociate.

Not through violence and that is precisely what they are using.

Not through violence and that is precisely what they are using.

But it was okay when the Kosovars did it?

But it was okay when the Kosovars did it?

They declared independence peacefully.

They declared independence peacefully.

I'm talking about earlier.

I'm talking about earlier.

Actually no it wasn't ok then either.

For this discussion, it is very relevent.

Actually, it isn't. In fact, it is entirely irrelevant. The north Kosovars have the right to dissociate from Pristina if they so wish, as they have just titles to their persons and property; they are not owned by Hashim Thaci, George W. Bush, or anyone else, and as such their ilk has no say in what Kosovar Serbs can and cannot do. Regardless of where they got their information, the Kosovar Serbs have the right to use their faculties as they see appropriate, whether to take in ideas or act upon it, without compulsion from Pristina or NATO or the UN or EU.

Not through violence and that is precisely what they are using.

The fact that they are still part of a nation that they do not want to be in means that they are being held there through compulsion. As such, their violence is justifiable as self-defense until the occupiers renounce all claims to north Kosovo, withdraw all of their agents, and allow them to associate as they wish. A continued occupation will only mean more death and suffering on all sides.

Actually, it isn't. In fact, it is entirely irrelevant. The north Kosovars have the right to dissociate from Pristina if they so wish, as they have just titles to their persons and property; they are not owned by Hashim Thaci, George W. Bush, or anyone else, and as such their ilk has no say in what Kosovar Serbs can and cannot do. Regardless of where they got their information, the Kosovar Serbs have the right to use their faculties as they see appropriate, whether to take in ideas or act upon it, without compulsion from Pristina or NATO or the UN or EU.

When you stop spouting rhetoric, let me know. I'm tired of anarchist shit.

The fact that they are still part of a nation that they do not want to be in means that they are being held there through compulsion. As such, their violence is justifiable as self-defense until the occupiers renounce all claims to north Kosovo, withdraw all of their agents, and allow them to associate as they wish. A continued occupation will only mean more death and suffering on all sides.

No! They are not being occupied and their use of violence is not justifiable at all. They are not being persecuted. They are not being tortured. They have to follow the law same as anyone else. The use of violence is 100% unjustifiable.

When you stop spouting rhetoric, let me know. I'm tired of anarchist shit.

Thank you for your non-argument in support of your assertion that who gave them the idea is somehow at all relevant.

No! They are not being occupied and their use of violence is not justifiable at all. They are not being persecuted. They are not being tortured. They have to follow the law same as anyone else. The use of violence is 100% unjustifiable.

If they weren't being occupied, they would be free to secede from Kosovo and rejoin Serbia, but quite obviously they aren't despite their wishes (hence why Burns and the EU have said they oppose partition.) And HRW has indicated quite clearly that they are being persecuted heavily, hence why half of Kosovar Serbs have been forced out of Kosovo, and why they don't want anything to do with Pristina and shouldn't have to.

If they weren't being occupied, they would be free to secede from Kosovo and rejoin Serbia, but quite obviously they aren't despite their wishes (hence why Burns and the EU have said they oppose partition.) And HRW has indicated quite clearly that they are being persecuted heavily, hence why half of Kosovar Serbs have been forced out of Kosovo, and why they don't want anything to do with Pristina and shouldn't have to.

Funny...where were those articles? I've read the ones posted and nothing was there. Give it up. I'm not buying rhetoric based on the most flemsiest of quotes.

Funny...where were those articles? I've read the ones posted and nothing was there. Give it up. I'm not buying rhetoric based on the most flemsiest of quotes.

Actually, you obviously didn't read them. Human Rights Watch has time and time again pointed out that "Kosovo remains a human rights basket-case, where political violence, impunity for common and political crimes, intimidation and discrimination are commonplace", (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/12/10/serbia17520.htm), but you just don't want to believe it.

Actually, you obviously didn't read them. Human Rights Watch has time and time again pointed out that "Kosovo remains a human rights basket-case, where political violence, impunity for common and political crimes, intimidation and discrimination are commonplace", (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/12/10/serbia17520.htm), but you just don't want to believe it.

And in an area that saw ethnic clensing done by Milosevic, that comes as zero surprise now does it? When you point out that the Government of Kosovo is responsible for it, then we'll talk. As such, you have failed to prove this.

And I'm still waiting on who came up with the partition plan.

And in an area that saw ethnic clensing done by Milosevic, that comes as zero surprise now does it? When you point out that the Government of Kosovo is responsible for it, then we'll talk. As such, you have failed to prove this.

The government of Kosovo is responsible for it because they have failed to stop this chronic mistreatment of minorities, especially political violence, and in fact been perpetrated by some of its agents.

Some members of the KPC have been implicated in human rights abuses against minority communities in Kosovo, and involvement in organized crime. The KPC itself played a minimal role during the March 2004 violence in Kosovo, largely confining itself to its barracks... In the Scandinavian-KFOR-led central area of Kosovo, offers from KPC to help defend Caglavica (Çagllavice) were steadfastly refused because Scandinavian KFOR elements did not want to cede any of their security responsibilities to the KPC.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/kosovo0704/4.htm Also,

The OSCE has said that the attacks on Serbs have been targeted and systematic with members of the Kosovo Liberation Army and its successor the Kosovo Protection Corps, often apparently involved.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/553126.stm The various groups in Kosovo have utterly failed to provide for security for minorities as is their duty, thus their suffering falls upon their shoulders. In fact, the arbitrary power of NATO and the UN in Kosovo has contributed to their suffering, just the same as the participation of KPC members in harming Serbs has been added on to their failure to protect them.

And I'm still waiting on who came up with the partition plan.

Then wait some more, because it's absolutely irrelevant. The fact that the EU and the US have said they won't partition Kosovo on ethnic lines even though this would allow Kosovar Serbs to secede, like they want, says enough in and of itself.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/kosovo0704/4.htm

Notice the URL date of 2004. I am not interested in 2004. I am interested in 2008. Kosovo is slowly working on it but they need assistance.

Also,



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/553126.stm The various groups in Kosovo have utterly failed to provide for security for minorities as is their duty, thus their suffering falls upon their shoulders. In fact, the arbitrary power of NATO and the UN in Kosovo has contributed to their suffering, just the same as the participation of KPC members in harming Serbs has been added on to their failure to protect them.

Talk about outdated material. This is back from 1999.Back when a Civil War was taking place. Does not make it any more right but this was Nine years ago.

Then wait some more, because it's absolutely irrelevant. The fact that the EU and the US have said they won't partition Kosovo on ethnic lines even though this would allow Kosovar Serbs to secede, like they want, says enough in and of itself.

And if you read their reasoning, I am sure you can understand why they did so! But I guess a little thing like peace just does not jive with you now does it?

jolt.co.uk public forums > Massive Multiplayer Online Games > NationStates > Anything & Everything > General
NATO brutally fight Serbian civilians & U.N.

....There fixed it for you!

jolt.co.uk public forums > Massive Multiplayer Online Games > NationStates > Anything & Everything > General
NATO brutally fight Serbian civilians & U.N.

....There fixed it for you!

Um...in case you have not noticed, but a UN police officer died while they, along with NATO, tried to take a court house that was illegally seized by protestors.

Your post is made of phail.

Um...in case you have not noticed, but a UN police officer died while they, along with NATO, tried to take a court house that was illegally seized by protestors.

Your post is made of phail.

u.n. was supposed to be an observer but it got too involved ,im sorry for ukranian policeman he died for hothing i feel sorry much more for 70 and more serb civilians with heavy wounds and several in coma and critical situation. may god help them. theese are not some punks for the street! these are highly educated people with a degree in law ,who know their rights guaranteed by u.n. like a right to work ,theyve been made fired deliberatelly by the albanians and nato and havent worked for what 9 years now ,the truth is they are making economical cleansing of serbian people since day 1 they arrived to kosovo.making life immposibble as it can be. make tham live in gheto.then cut it off from any contact from outside.is that free and open society albanians proclame? they have their own state albania, go back there and do whatever you want.leave poore serbia alone!
serbians living north wanted negotiations for years now and nobody ever replied untill they finally took over the court building.they promiced not to attack.now theyve used snipers and shock bombs against innocent civilians ,pregnant wommen and children...this will not go unpunished.

theyve been made fired deliberatelly by the albanians and nato and havent worked for what 9 years now ,the truth is they are making economical cleansing of serbian people since day 1 they arrived to kosovo.making life immposibble as it can be. make tham live in gheto.then cut it off from any contact from outside.

See, its not very fun when a minority group in a region gets treated as economic second class citizens, is it? Perhaps if Kosovo hadn't been the armpit of Yugoslavia then Serbia since it was ceded from the Ottoman empire they Kosovans wouldn't be clamouring for independence.

See, its not very fun when a minority group in a region gets treated as economic second class citizens, is it? Perhaps if Kosovo hadn't been the armpit of Yugoslavia then Serbia since it was ceded from the Ottoman empire they Kosovans wouldn't be clamouring for independence.
so you are same ore worse then milosevic a?
woot?
limited knowllege pool is simply tragi-comic....
we poored billions into underdeveloped regions during old yugoslavia mostly kosovo ,macedonia,montenegro... etc during tito the croat, rulle of terror.
and we still pay kosovo companies debt unlike selfproclaimed terrorist state of kosovo.
thus we feel behing yougoslav average G.D.P. over 50 years...we were ahead of it since late 30s untill 1950...
besided albanian population south trippled ore even more,over 50 years they didnt dissapear from kosovo like we do,if they were living so bad hows that possible,....in all milosevic was a small baby compared to your guys tachi,uck,nato...

Notice the URL date of 2004. I am not interested in 2004. I am interested in 2008. Kosovo is slowly working on it but they need assistance.

No they aren't. That's why HRW said in their latest article on Kosovo that there are still serious problems with protection of minorities, regardless of what minor improvements have been made.

Also,





Talk about outdated material. This is back from 1999.Back when a Civil War was taking place. Does not make it any more right but this was Nine years ago.

Notice the 'December 6th'. The war ended in June, months before; we can tell because the KLA was disbanded post-war and formed into the KPC, hence this isn't during the war. And the KPC has continued to commit human rights violations since the end of the war, and obviously failed to protect minorities (hence their precipitous emigration and the fact that they have to live in ghettos in the north.)

And if you read their reasoning, I am sure you can understand why they did so! But I guess a little thing like peace just does not jive with you now does it?

If you wanted peace, you would not stand in the way of partitioning Kosovo and perpetuating this violence and the misery of the Kosovar Serbs. Seeing as how you would prefer to focus on who gave the idea of the partition for some bizarre reason instead of the fact that it is what the Kosovar Serbs want and the only way they can get out of a government that hasn't done shit to protect them and in fact has harmed them on numerous occassions, I find your suggestion that I oppose peace laughable.

No they aren't.

yes they are. Just because you are too stupid to notice does not mean they aren't.

That's why HRW said in their latest article on Kosovo that there are still serious problems with protection of minorities, regardless of what minor improvements have been made.

Given them some time. They are working on it. Maybe if nations got off their fucking asses and assisted instead of taking a wait and see approach, it will get done faster. On top of that, politics is in play right now and the last thing they want to do is tread on toes. Are you comprehending the situation now or do you want a crash course?

Notice the 'December 6th'. The war ended in June, months before; we can tell because the KLA was disbanded post-war and formed into the KPC, hence this isn't during the war. And the KPC has continued to commit human rights violations since the end of the war.

*yawns* Violence has been going on long before the Kosovo War and yes it continued after it. What the hell is your point?

If you wanted peace, you would not stand in the way of partitioning Kosovo and perpetuating this violence and the misery of the Kosovar Serbs.

So you want to see violence? That is what is going to happen if the partition plan went forward. Maybe you should read why the US and EU rejected the partition plan. Maybe that will open up your cataracs

Seeing as how you would prefer to focus on who gave the idea of the partition for some bizarre reason instead of the fact that it is what the Kosovar Serbs want and the only way they can get out of a government that hasn't done shit to protect them and in fact has harmed them on numerous occassions, I find your suggestion that I oppose peace laughable.

Well you do as you think that partitioning Kosovo is going to solve anything. Just the opposite actually.

so you are same ore worse then milosevic a?
woot?
limited knowllege pool is simply tragi-comic....
we poored billions into underdeveloped regions during old yugoslavia mostly kosovo ,macedonia,montenegro... etc during tito the croat, rulle of terror.
and we still pay kosovo companies debt unlike selfproclaimed terrorist state of kosovo.

Kosovo did indeed receive large subsidies, yet at the time of the break up of Yugoslavia was the most underdeveloped of all regions in Yugoslavia.

thus we feel behing yougoslav average G.D.P. over 50 years...we were ahead of it since late 30s untill 1950...

The GDP per capita PPP adjusted remains higher in Serbia than in Kosovo, Bosnia and Montenegro.

besided albanian population south trippled ore even more,over 50 years they didnt dissapear from kosovo like we do,if they were living so bad hows that possible,....in all milosevic was a small baby compared to your guys tachi,uck,nato...

Population growth in developing countries far outstirps that of developed countries. Clearly Africa isn't all that bad a place to live. DR Congo has some of the highest growth rates of any country - they clearly can't be that poor!

Kosovo did indeed receive large subsidies, yet at the time of the break up of Yugoslavia was the most underdeveloped of all regions in Yugoslavia.
The GDP per capita PPP adjusted remains higher in Serbia than in Kosovo, Bosnia and Montenegro.
Population growth in developing countries far outstirps that of developed countries. Clearly Africa isn't all that bad a place to live. DR Congo has some of the highest growth rates of any country - they clearly can't be that poor!
well wtih that much population growth its hard to make it #1 economic region in yugoslavia...
well bosnia is more mountainous then Serbia,montenegro even more,hard to make infrastructure there ,and not much resources. we had a aircraft factory here and after ww2 it was moved to bosnia, to mostar, refrigerator factory ended up in montenegro ,pipe factory transfered to kosovo ,and numerous other examples....not vice-versa!
so we gave them roads and schools south, just so they can kill us?!?
hah, so Romania had better economy in cold war because of slower population growth??
cant make it there ,parallel isnt working this is europe not afrika and mid-developed economy old SFRJ was ,Serbs living down there still made fewer and fewer percentage of people in our southern province.That was Titos political undermining of Serbia,and forcing serbs to leave their properties for small apartments in Belgrade.

yes they are. Just because you are too stupid to notice does not mean they aren't.

Nice ad-hominem.

Given them some time. They are working on it. Maybe if nations got off their fucking asses and assisted instead of taking a wait and see approach, it will get done faster. On top of that, politics is in play right now and the last thing they want to do is tread on toes. Are you comprehending the situation now or do you want a crash course?

I don't want to 'give them some time'; I want them to fix a problem that has been going on for eight years now and that they haven't fixed. And if they didn't want to 'tread on toes', they wouldn't have allowed Kosovo's secession. I don't see how protecting minorities is more provocative than that.

*yawns* Violence has been going on long before the Kosovo War and yes it continued after it. What the hell is your point?

You tried to excuse violence on the ground that it was a civil war and violence happens, but it was AFTER the war had ended and perpetrated by agents of Pristina.

So you want to see violence? That is what is going to happen if the partition plan went forward. Maybe you should read why the US and EU rejected the partition plan. Maybe that will open up your cataracs

The only reason there would be any violence is if the US and EU continue to support their client states in compelling the membership of other ethnicities. We can clearly see that in the ongoing violence against Serbs by Albanians despite all promises to the contrary, whereas Belgrade would treat the Kosovar Serbs more decently.

Well you do as you think that partitioning Kosovo is going to solve anything. Just the opposite actually.

It would make peace as it would mean that the Kosovar Serbs would be under Belgrade's jurisdiction, their people, instead of the extremely dubious protection of Pristina. That is why they want to secede.

well wtih that much population growth its hard to make it #1 economic region in yugoslavia...

I didn't say it was easy. You basically claimed that with all the population growth there it must be doing alright. As Africa shows, population growth does not equal prosperity.

well bosnia is more mountainous then Serbia,montenegro even more,hard to make infrastructure there ,and not much resources. we had a aircraft factory here and after ww2 it was moved to bosnia, to mostar, refrigerator factory ended up in montenegro ,pipe factory transfered to kosovo ,and numerous other examples....not vice-versa!

And yet Serbia are still doing better than them. Kosovo, Montenegro and Bosnia have not overtaken Serbia in wealth.

so we gave them roads and schools south, just so they can kill us?!?

Well, I guess Yugoslavia (and later Serbia) could have done something crazy like develop Kosovo to a standard equal to that of Serbia.

hah, so Romania had better economy in cold war because of slower population growth??

I don't recall saying that.

cant make it there ,parallel isnt working this is europe not afrika and mid-developed economy old SFRJ was ,Serbs living down there still made fewer and fewer percentage of people in our southern province.That was Titos political undermining of Serbia,and forcing serbs to leave their properties for small apartments in Belgrade.

See above: You basically claimed that with all the population growth there it must be doing alright. As Africa shows, population growth does not equal prosperity.

Dammit! This is exactly how we're not going to get Kosovo back. I can see the news coverage now "Serbian Terrorists attack the great, invincible empire!"

I just love how the US media just demonized us during the UN and NATO occupations. Of course Serbs could only be the ones with death camps, I saw Behind Enemy Lines! Hollywood NEVER exagerates.

I was in Serbia this summer, I SAW the bombed buildings. There's an unexploded shell full of depleated uranium in the Chinese Embessy. The North Atlanic Terror Organization's excuse was "Old Map". There's a monument in Beograd (Belgrade) for all of the children killed by either the bombs dropped by NATO planes, or the effects, a power grid was bombed, and many babies never left their incubators.

I spoke to a woman who left her apartment building 5 MINUTES before it was bombed. Oh yeah, Nato's the good guys alright.

Yeah Serbs are totally evil. We're like, worse than Hitler, and and, and Stalin! But Pinochet and Franco are good guys because they were America friends.



Ugh... I wish we had a Serbian Ghandi. One to get our state back, and to unite all of Jugoslavia, which would I guess also be a second Tito.

Of course now with this, these few idiots, it'll be like punishing a small child.

Needless to say, you're dealing with a pissed off Serb.

<SNIP inane rant>
Needless to say, you're dealing with a pissed off Serb.

Wouldn't have guessed...

Ugh... I wish we had a Serbian Ghandi. One to get our state back, and to unite all of Jugoslavia, which would I guess also be a second Tito.

I agree that the United States should stop bombing people for FREEDOM(c) (i.e. the freedom to be collateral damage), but I do not think it would be at all a good idea to advocate any kind of Titoism. Tito was half-Slovene, half-Croat and no friend of the Serbian people. Along with his general malignance through repression, his immigration and welfare policies are the cause of the conflict in Kosovo, and his policy of divide and conquer (remember, he placed almost half of Serbs outside the Serbian republic to fulfill his ideal of 'weak Serbia, strong Yugoslavia') is responsible for Serbia's problems in general.

Rather than attempting to impose hegemony over the Balkans like Tito or the Ottomans, Austrians, Nazis or Americans, we should instead establish a system of reciprocal defense and aid between all Serbs everywhere independent of Tito-era arbitrary national boundaries that can facilitate mutually beneficial exchange with similarly independent neighbors of Serbs while providing enough strength to resist incursions of the imperialist de jour, all without depending upon the flimsy promises of corrupt politicians who claim to uphold the rights of Serbs but utterly fail to do so.

Tito was half-Slovene, half-Croat and no friend of the Serbian people. Along with his general malignance through repression, his immigration and welfare policies are the cause of the conflict in Kosovo, and his policy of divide and conquer (remember, he placed almost half of Serbs outside the Serbian republic to fulfill his ideal of 'weak Serbia, strong Yugoslavia') is responsible for Serbia's problems in general.


Well when I say second Tito, I mean a socialist who only looks to unite all of the Jugoslavs, and imprision anyone for any hate speech.

Actually, his wife was Serbian. He also played cards with Patriarch German (Yeah, sort of like the country, but with a hard G) of the Serbian ORthodox church (although this may have been the PAtriarch's way of keeping the church alive. The funny thing is that people wen to church more during SFRY).

Well when I say second Tito, I mean a socialist who only looks to unite all of the Jugoslavs, and imprision anyone for any hate speech.

I wouldn't like that, either, being A.) a free-marketeer, B.) one who believes in free speech on one's property, even to the point of allowing libel and slander, and C.) a supporter of secession and subsidiarity. But I do agree with you that the Serbs deserve to have their rights protected instead of being violated by imperialists.

Actually, his wife was Serbian. He also played cards with Patriarch German (Yeah, sort of like the country, but with a hard G) of the Serbian ORthodox church (although this may have been the PAtriarch's way of keeping the church alive. The funny thing is that people wen to church more during SFRY).

The thing is, though, Tito did that because he realized that persecuting the church would merely increase religiosity; it was the lesser of two evils for him that would least prevent his homogenization of the Yugoslav peoples, in this case concerning his push for secularization. He realized very much that he had to weaken the Serbs, the largest group, as a people in order to have a strong Yugoslavia, hence the arbitrary division of the republics.

See above: You basically claimed that with all the population growth there it must be doing alright. As Africa shows, population growth does not equal prosperity.

ahh but i saw genocide,serbian terror and all othe B.S. here from you saying we have done it for 50 years....
infact i have turned it upside down and you still come back to africa...well go live there,and leave us alone.

Dammit! This is exactly how we're not going to get Kosovo back. I can see the news coverage now "Serbian Terrorists attack the great, invincible empire!"

I just love how the US media just demonized us during the UN and NATO occupations. Of course Serbs could only be the ones with death camps, I saw Behind Enemy Lines! Hollywood NEVER exagerates.

I was in Serbia this summer, I SAW the bombed buildings. There's an unexploded shell full of depleated uranium in the Chinese Embessy. The North Atlanic Terror Organization's excuse was "Old Map". There's a monument in Beograd (Belgrade) for all of the children killed by either the bombs dropped by NATO planes, or the effects, a power grid was bombed, and many babies never left their incubators.

I spoke to a woman who left her apartment building 5 MINUTES before it was bombed. Oh yeah, Nato's the good guys alright.

Yeah Serbs are totally evil. We're like, worse than Hitler, and and, and Stalin! But Pinochet and Franco are good guys because they were America friends.



Ugh... I wish we had a Serbian Ghandi. One to get our state back, and to unite all of Jugoslavia, which would I guess also be a second Tito.

Of course now with this, these few idiots, it'll be like punishing a small child.

Needless to say, you're dealing with a pissed off Serb.

yeah its 9 years now today,....and the terror continues...
remember how america supported milosevic in 1995-6 because he gave up on Serbian parts of croatia nad bosnia, during election years....
we should have hanged him then as a traitor.

ahh but i saw genocide,serbian terror and all othe B.S. here from you saying we have done it for 50 years....
infact i have turned it upside down and you still come back to africa...well go live there,and leave us alone.

You make less sense with every post. Do you still refuse to acknowledge that population growth does not equal prosperity, as you previously claimed?

I just love how the US media just demonized us during the UN and NATO occupations.
No, it was the Serbs who demonized the Serbs, and that was long before the Kosovo fight. Americans would not have felt like intervening in Kosovo if we had not become so impatient with our government's inaction during the Bosnia war.
Of course Serbs could only be the ones with death camps
Yes, I saw the Serb death camps. I am not sure if you are trying to deny their existence, or pretend that other sides had them also, or minimize the importance.