NationStates Jolt Archive

For all those American's on here, do you ever feel slightly insulted when you hear people talking about al the bad things America has done. Yes, we do have some stupid leadership and they are fairly paranoid and hypocritical, but when do you ever hear people complaining about the atrocities and whatnot either committed or supported by nearly every other country on earth? You go on about how America's economy is failing, someone even said it was only powerful in the first place because of unfair trade agreements with certain countries such as China. Well wheres China now? Everybody talks about their ultra-powerful economy. Maybe someone should mention that the PRC forced out the rightful government decades ago, and that they now give off more greenhouse gases than even the "evil" United States. Not to mention the essential slavery that goes on in China, and the oppressive communist regime. I could easily come up with more examples for most other countries (spare a few neutral European countries such as Switzerland). I dont know, it just irritates me that everyone is so quick to point out the flaws of the American government when they often forget about their own. America is no better and no worse than anyone else. We're just easy to pick on now due to several decades of being the worlds only superpower.

patriot, n. One to whom the interests of a part seem superior to those of the whole. The dupe of statesmen and the tool of conquerors.


patriotism, n. Combustible rubbish read to the torch of any one ambitious to illuminate his name.

In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first.

-The Devil's Dictionary, by Ambrose Gwinnett Bierce.

For all those American's on here, do you ever feel slightly insulted when you hear people talking about al the bad things America has done.(?)
Yes, we do have some stupid leadership and they are fairly paranoid and hypocritical, but when do you ever hear people complaining about the atrocities and whatnot either committed or supported by nearly every other country on earth?
You go on about how America's economy is failing, someone even said it was only powerful in the first place because of unfair trade agreements with certain countries such as China.
Well wheres China now?
Everybody talks about their ultra-powerful economy.
Maybe someone should mention that the PRC forced out the rightful government decades ago, and that they now give off more greenhouse gases than even the "evil" United States.
Not to mention the essential slavery that goes on in China, and the oppressive communist regime.
I could easily come up with more examples for most other countries (spare a few neutral European countries such as Switzerland).
I dont know, it just irritates me that everyone is so quick to point out the flaws of the American government when they often forget about their own. America is no better and no worse than anyone else.
We're just easy to pick on now due to several decades of being the worlds only superpower.

Unpacked for the safety of my eyes.
lets see.

Yes people do complain about other countries too (see first bolded part).
China is a country in the East (see second bolded part).
I wasn't aware China was a communist state that allows slavery. a source for this would be nice (see third bolded part).

America is not the only country on earth, sure it's done silly things but so have alot of other countries, relax it happens all the time.

For all those American's on here, do you ever feel slightly insulted when you hear people talking about al the bad things America has done.

No, should I? I might feel ashamed and kinda dirty.

Yes, we do have some stupid leadership and they are fairly paranoid and hypocritical, but when do you ever hear people complaining about the atrocities and whatnot either committed or supported by nearly every other country on earth?

I hear complaining about nearly every other country on earth.

But you know, Trinidad and Tobago just hasn't done anything as newsworthy as invading Iraq, Afghanistan, setting up torture camps in Cuba...

So I don't see why how their treatment of natives in the 17th century is relevant to discussions about US politics.

I dont know, it just irritates me that everyone is so quick to point out the flaws of the American government when they often forget about their own.

The American government *is* my own, so I guess it just irritates you that I do NOT forget about it.

America is no better and no worse than anyone else. We're just easy to pick on now due to several decades of being the worlds only superpower.

Nonsense. We're committing human rights abuses and throwing our future out the window. That's worse than what a lot are doing. Wake up and smell the country - it's not a pleasant smell right now. It smells like blood, semen, sweat, tears and other things which I won't mention.

For all those American's on here, do you ever feel slightly insulted when you hear people talking about al the bad things America has done.

Almost never. On occasion, there's an exceptionally ignorant and arrogant post that annoys me, but that's very rare.

Yes, we do have some stupid leadership and they are fairly paranoid and hypocritical, but when do you ever hear people complaining about the atrocities and whatnot either committed or supported by nearly every other country on earth?

Um... all the time? Especially on NSG.

Naturally, of course, since there are lots of Americans here and since the US position in the international scene is rather prominent, the US will be an exceptional focus of attention... but that has nothing to do with anti-US sentiment, unless you want to attribute the extensive discussion of the US elections to hatred of the US, too.

Maybe someone should mention that the PRC forced out the rightful government decades ago,

The PRC is not a rightful government, but the government it overthrew was hardly rightful either.

and that they now give off more greenhouse gases than even the "evil" United States.

Not per capita.

Not to mention the essential slavery that goes on in China, and the oppressive communist regime.

Of course, this is actually mentioned all the time.

Unpacked for the safety of my eyes.
lets see.

Yes people do complain about other countries too (see first bolded part).
China is a country in the East (see second bolded part).
I wasn't aware China was a communist state that allows slavery. a source for this would be nice (see third bolded part).

America is not the only country on earth, sure it's done silly things but so have alot of other countries, relax it happens all the time.

Yes I know, this thread was just a reaction to the sheer amount of people on here denouncing the US. Its well known that China is a communist state that restricts freedom of speech. The slavery quote was from a yahoo article I read a while ago of forced labor in China's rural areas. Most of these people are given little more than an occasional meal, and if they are payed its a pathetic amount that few could live on. Also, when I said "Where is China now?" I didnt literally mean "where are they located?".

Not at all. I could really care less what people think about America, or whether or not America is a "superpower". I guess the only thing great abut America being a superpower is that you can really laugh in the faces of those morons who think the Middle Eastern countries had the ability to launch a full scale invasion of America if we didn't go into Afghanistan and Iraq.

Maybe someone should mention that the PRC forced out the rightful government decades ago,

Like the Americans did with the English?

and that they now give off more greenhouse gases than even the "evil" United States.

Per capita? And even if they emitted more per capita than the US that wouldn't be a reason not to stop polluting.

Not to mention the essential slavery that goes on in China, and the oppressive communist regime.

Oh please :rolleyes: the PRC isn't communist. You're right about the capitalistic slavery though.

it is not patriotic to turn a blind eye to the faults of your country or to try to excuse them by saying that other countries do bad things too.

Almost never. On occasion, there's an exceptionally ignorant and arrogant post that annoys me, but that's very rare.



Um... all the time? Especially on NSG.

Naturally, of course, since there are lots of Americans here and since the US position in the international scene is rather prominent, the US will be an exceptional focus of attention... but that has nothing to do with anti-US sentiment, unless you want to attribute the extensive discussion of the US elections to hatred of the US, too.



The PRC is not a rightful government, but the government it overthrew was hardly rightful either.



Not per capita.



Of course, this is actually mentioned all the time.

Nothing to do with anti-US sentiment? It was to my understanding that, thanks to George Bush, the US is one of the more hated countries on earth right now. Perhaps I am taking all the flaming a bit seriously, but I still feel as though people are sometimes unfairly critical of the US.

I wasn't aware China was a communist state that allows slavery. a source for this would be nice (see third bolded part).

America is not the only country on earth, sure it's done silly things but so have alot of other countries, relax it happens all the time.

I think you misunderstand him. The chinese workers get paid close to nothing for their labor thus almost being slavery.

For all those American's on here, do you ever feel slightly insulted when you hear people talking about al the bad things America has done. Yes, we do have some stupid leadership and they are fairly paranoid and hypocritical, but when do you ever hear people complaining about the atrocities and whatnot either committed or supported by nearly every other country on earth? You go on about how America's economy is failing, someone even said it was only powerful in the first place because of unfair trade agreements with certain countries such as China. Well wheres China now? Everybody talks about their ultra-powerful economy. Maybe someone should mention that the PRC forced out the rightful government decades ago, and that they now give off more greenhouse gases than even the "evil" United States. Not to mention the essential slavery that goes on in China, and the oppressive communist regime. I could easily come up with more examples for most other countries (spare a few neutral European countries such as Switzerland). I dont know, it just irritates me that everyone is so quick to point out the flaws of the American government when they often forget about their own. America is no better and no worse than anyone else. We're just easy to pick on now due to several decades of being the worlds only superpower.

I was gonna go point-by-point in refutation, but others have beaten me to it and done a good job.

As far as America coming on for lots of negative press, when a majority of your citizenry has swallowed the superiority line so much that they think that anyone not singing the same song is AUTOMATICALLY a traitor or a terrorist, well, you get the press you deserve.

If you worked at a place with a guy who was always yelling "I'M THE BEST MOTHERFUCKER IN THIS WHOLE COMPANY!" -- you'd get annoyed, too, particularly if it wasn't even close to true.

Parkus, I'll add one more definition from someone you'll probably consider inferior to your Troika (Bierce, Wright, Lehrer):

PATRIOT: He who can yell the loudest without knowing what he is yelling about.

-- Mark Twain

Anybody else notice that 'Patriotism' rhymes with 'Hatetriotism'?

Nothing to do with anti-US sentiment? It was to my understanding that, thanks to George Bush, the US is one of the more hated countries on earth right now. Perhaps I am taking all the flaming a bit seriously, but I still feel as though people are sometimes unfairly critical of the US.

Perhaps if you provided any accurate or good and documented examples of "unfair criticism" and on which subject, we'd be more likely to see your point.

Perhaps I am taking all the flaming a bit seriously, but I still feel as though people are sometimes unfairly critical of the US.

Giving legitimate negative comments on politics of a country you happen to live =/= flaming.

Yes I know, this thread was just a reaction to the sheer amount of people on here denouncing the US. Its well known that China is a communist state that restricts freedom of speech. The slavery quote was from a yahoo article I read a while ago of forced labor in China's rural areas. Most of these people are given little more than an occasional meal, and if they are payed its a pathetic amount that few could live on. Also, when I said "Where is China now?" I didnt literally mean "where are they located?".

See -- this post reveals your REAL beef, you don't think China is getting enough negative press when compared to America. Now had you started this thread with that premise, the responses you got might have been different.

In short: "WAAAH AMERICA GETS BAD PRESS! (Chinasucks Chinasucks Chinasucks)." You've used a purse seine net to catch one fish.

Like the Americans did with the English?



Per capita? And even if they emitted more per capita than the US that wouldn't be a reason not to stop polluting.



Oh please :rolleyes: the PRC isn't communist. You're right about the capitalistic slavery though.

The American revolution is an entirely different story from the PRC's overthrow of the Chinese government. The English were attempting to run a government from across an ocean when nobody wanted them there. Might we also compare it to Ireland? The English ruled there for hundreds of years with very little public support. Are you saying that Irish independence was a bad thing?

The PRC does have somewhat of a mixed economy, but they have opressed freedoms as long as they have been in place.

See -- this post reveals your REAL beef, you don't think China is getting enough negative press when compared to America. Now had you started this thread with that premise, the responses you got might have been different.

In short: "WAAAH AMERICA GETS BAD PRESS! (Chinasucks Chinasucks Chinasucks)." You've used a purse seine net to catch one fish.

I've just been using china as an example.

The American revolution is an entirely different story from the PRC's overthrow of the Chinese government. The English were attempting to run a government from across an ocean when nobody wanted them there. Might we also compare it to Ireland? The English ruled there for hundreds of years with very little public support. Are you saying that Irish independence was a bad thing?

Fair enough, but the Chinese government before that probably wasn't that great either.

The PRC does have somewhat of a mixed economy, but they have opressed freedoms as long as they have been in place.

opressing freedoms =/= communism.

oh look victim complex (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=victim+complex) has come out to play

"oh your all bullying me" *whinge whinge*

For all those American's on here, do you ever feel slightly insulted when you hear people talking about al the bad things America has done.

if don't like criticism don't do stupid things

and no its not just America we British suffer all the time (and oddly from X generation immigrants who don't know a thing about Ireland)

Yes, we do have some stupid leadership and they are fairly paranoid and hypocritical, but when do you ever hear people complaining about the atrocities and whatnot either committed or supported by nearly every other country on earth?

Darfur threads got old and typically these atrocities happen in nations where we expect it to happen as part of life

We're just easy to pick on now due to several decades of being the worlds only superpower.

pfft we could just as easy "pick" on you for that whole love triangle you had with Napoleon

The English were attempting to run a government from across an ocean when nobody wanted them there.

same as the batshit insane nationalists

Might we also compare it to Ireland?

no

I agree everyone needs to stop picking on America

I agree everyone needs to stop picking on America

But if all our flaming has no ground in reality, wouldn't it be easier to refute it than to bitch about it like in this thread?
If you have such a strong case, why not provide us with some arguments?

The real problem is that we set ourselves up as a becon of freedom and democrasy; but we forgot that when you are in the spotlight, if you stumble it is much more obvious.

But if all our flaming has no ground in reality, wouldn't it be easier to refute it than to bitch about it like in this thread?
If you have such a strong case, why not provide us with some arguments?

*chases*
"I want my money back!"
"you didn't tell me anything about what happens afterward!"
*brandishes flaming torch*
"come back here"

patriot, n. One to whom the interests of a part seem superior to those of the whole. The dupe of statesmen and the tool of conquerors.


patriotism, n. Combustible rubbish read to the torch of any one ambitious to illuminate his name.

In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last resort of a scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first.

-The Devil's Dictionary, by Ambrose Gwinnett Bierce.

Theres nothing wrong with patriotism. As long as it isn't blind patriotism. You can celebrate your country's achievements, but don't be unrealistic about it.

In response to the OP:
I have noticed that some people tend to blame America for everything that goes wrong in the world. But, to my eyes, I haven't really seen anybody on this forum doing that.

It's because of the hypocrisy. we have ideals and principles that go counter to everything we're currently engaged in. We supposedly believe in justice and equality before the law, and in the law mattering, and so on. THE US DOES NOT TORTURE (except all that torturing we're doing.) We are hypocrites, and that pisses people off.

Like the Americans did with the English?


I'm sorry but comparing the American rebels of the 1770's to what the PRC does today sounds a little silly to me. Maybe you should say that the British were more like the PRC is today?

*chases*
"I want my money back!"
"you didn't tell me anything about what happens afterward!"
*brandishes flaming torch*
"come back here"

The thread was closed before I could, and you should have read the small text:

"We don't refund"

*Continues Evil Laugh™*

I'm sorry but comparing the American rebels of the 1770's to what the PRC does today sounds a little silly to me. Maybe you should say that the British were more like the PRC is today?

I wasn't really comparing what they're doing now, just that both governments came to power trough rebellion and civil war. I agree though that the americans might have more public support which would have made it more legitimate.

Unpacked for the safety of my eyes.
lets see.

Yes people do complain about other countries too (see first bolded part).
China is a country in the East (see second bolded part).
I wasn't aware China was a communist state that allows slavery. a source for this would be nice (see third bolded part.

Yeah, I don´t think any one nation could be considered a saint among the others. Our respective forefathers have all, in their time, done something that stains the honor of the country.
In my case, for example, Spain promoted the slavery of thousands of the native inhabitants of the Americas and shipped thousands more of Africans just to suit our purposes in the colonies. I´m not proud of that part of my history.
I guess the same could be said about many Americans, they´re proud of their country but are not proud of some aspects of their history. Am I on the right path?

For all those American's on here, do you ever feel slightly insulted when you hear people talking about al the bad things America has done. Yes, we do have some stupid leadership and they are fairly paranoid and hypocritical, but when do you ever hear people complaining about the atrocities and whatnot either committed or supported by nearly every other country on earth? You go on about how America's economy is failing, someone even said it was only powerful in the first place because of unfair trade agreements with certain countries such as China. Well wheres China now? Everybody talks about their ultra-powerful economy. Maybe someone should mention that the PRC forced out the rightful government decades ago, and that they now give off more greenhouse gases than even the "evil" United States. Not to mention the essential slavery that goes on in China, and the oppressive communist regime. I could easily come up with more examples for most other countries (spare a few neutral European countries such as Switzerland). I dont know, it just irritates me that everyone is so quick to point out the flaws of the American government when they often forget about their own. America is no better and no worse than anyone else. We're just easy to pick on now due to several decades of being the worlds only superpower.Get over it.

Patriotism is a result of the Nationalist movements theat all began with the French Revolution. Patriotism and Nationalism are good as long as people don't take it to far. Take Post-World War I Germany. Could they be proud to be Germans. Yes. Shjould they have become ultra-nationalist and allowed the Nazi's to come to power. No. Should they have killed millions of Jews becasue they were "sub human" according to the Nazi's no.
The Nazi's used nationalism and patriotism to blind the people and eventually get the people to support them.

Patriotism is a result of the Nationalist movements theat all began with the French Revolution. Patriotism and Nationalism are good as long as people don't take it to far. Take Post-World War I Germany. Could they be proud to be Germans. Yes. Shjould they have become ultra-nationalist and allowed the Nazi's to come to power. No. Should they have killed millions of Jews becasue they were "sub human" according to the Nazi's no.
The Nazi's used nationalism and patriotism to blind the people and eventually get the people to support them.Pre-WWI Europe is a fine example as well.

For all those American's on here, do you ever feel slightly insulted when you hear people talking about al the bad things America has done.

As long as they have their history right and we actually did do them and they are not blowing them out of proportion, then no, I dont.

Yes, we do have some stupid leadership and they are fairly paranoid and hypocritical, but when do you ever hear people complaining about the atrocities and whatnot either committed or supported by nearly every other country on earth?

All the time actually.

You go on about how America's economy is failing, someone even said it was only powerful in the first place because of unfair trade agreements with certain countries such as China.

Well, those people need to be corrected. Our economy is not failing, growth is just slowing. Also, "unfair" trade with China is not the main reason for our economic growth.

Well wheres China now? Everybody talks about their ultra-powerful economy. Maybe someone should mention that the PRC forced out the rightful government decades ago, and that they now give off more greenhouse gases than even the "evil" United States. Not to mention the essential slavery that goes on in China, and the oppressive communist regime.

This is talked about all the time. Anyone who knows anything about anything knows about this.

I could easily come up with more examples for most other countries (spare a few neutral European countries such as Switzerland).

Yes you could. So can anyone else. ps- The swiss kept tons of Nazi money, theyre not totally innocent.

I dont know, it just irritates me that everyone is so quick to point out the flaws of the American government when they often forget about their own.

No one forgets about their own, its just they are not either doing them now or on a smaller scale. The actions of the US are dominating world politics right now, so it stands to reason you will hear more critizism of them. When another country's actions dominate geopolitics, they will be the world punching bag.


America is no better and no worse than anyone else. We're just easy to pick on now due to several decades of being the worlds only superpower.

Agreed. And anyone who knows anything about anything knows this.


What bothers me more then people talking shit about America are people who think America is this shining pinnical of decency and perfection and think we're totally innocent.

I'm not offended when people bring up the bad things America has done because they usually do it in response to some jackass arrogantly going on about America like we're God's gift to the world and can do no wrong.

I am not offended by criticism of US foreign policy, because I realize that 'America' is just an abstract collective conjured up to make people conflate themselves with a bunch of cretins in Washington. (Hence why I no longer say "We bombed Iraq" but "The Federal Government bombed Iraq", seeing as how I have never piloted any kind of warplane or dropped any kind of explosive onto another person's head.) As such, I am not offended by any criticism of the Federal Government's policies, seeing as how they are de facto not criticisms of myself or my actions but rather criticisms of people who are indeed performing atrocious acts and who I have no fondness for.

For all those American's on here, do you ever feel slightly insulted when you hear people talking about al the bad things America has done. Yes, we do have some stupid leadership and they are fairly paranoid and hypocritical, but when do you ever hear people complaining about the atrocities and whatnot either committed or supported by nearly every other country on earth? You go on about how America's economy is failing, someone even said it was only powerful in the first place because of unfair trade agreements with certain countries such as China. Well wheres China now? Everybody talks about their ultra-powerful economy. Maybe someone should mention that the PRC forced out the rightful government decades ago, and that they now give off more greenhouse gases than even the "evil" United States. Not to mention the essential slavery that goes on in China, and the oppressive communist regime. I could easily come up with more examples for most other countries (spare a few neutral European countries such as Switzerland). I dont know, it just irritates me that everyone is so quick to point out the flaws of the American government when they often forget about their own. America is no better and no worse than anyone else. We're just easy to pick on now due to several decades of being the worlds only superpower.

I'm going to disentangle the purpose of your post from the means of argumentation and deal with each in turn.

Put simply, yes, I do get offended when I hear a certain kind of criticism of the United States. By "a certain kind of criticism", I refer to a kind of reverse patriotism where America sucks and everything we do is a function of our desire for power, everything we've been taught about our nation's history is a lie, we are unvarnished moral hypocrites, etc. Now I don't see this kind of reverse patriotism very often, but it is there, and there are strains of it that occassionally pop up in people's thinking. The reason why I get offended by this line of thinking is because it's based on as much rational consideration of the evidence at hand as blind patriotism is.

The evidence I refer to is this: most people would agree that the state is, at its most basic, built and organized for the betterment of its citizens, and that citizens have an obligation to obey in exchange for the government having the obligation to bettering the lives of its citizens. All people would agree with this sentiment if they were to read basic texts on the subject by Locke or Montesquieu and were not politically or economically disenfranchised by agreeing with it. But this sentiment only became a concrete political reality with the formulation of the Constitution of the United States. It existed in Britain before the Constitution, but only in ad hoc and terribly fragile form; it was the Constitution which first laid out what the obligations of the government were, how they were going to provide for them, and gave the people of the colonies the right to ratify this agreement. This is a stunning change in the course of human events, in my mind second only to the fact that the United States has in 200+ years gone out of its way to live up to its end of the bargain. Where many other nations are content to trade stability for enfranchisement of 90% of the population, the United States has consistently if haltingly made efforts to enfranchise everyone and to give everyone in society stakeholder status in our society.

The problem I see with these reverse-patriots, then, is that they mistake the fact that, say, neither China nor the United States are heavens-on-earth with universal stakeholder status and harmony with other nations with the fact that there is nothing fundamentally different between China and the United States. There is something different: the United States founded itself on the principle that in order to justify its own existence, it had a duty to its citizens. To a very great extent, it tries to live up to this duty. China does not. The problem, clearly stated, is that these reverse patriots confuse the lack of a morally virtuous paradise with the fact that pursuing and as completely as human effort allows making such a paradise is just a hustle.

But while I think you were hinting at this in your post, your argumentation is nothing more than a list of China's faults, as if China being bad somehow makes America better. That is just flat out false. What makes America better than China is not China's faults, but the virtues peculiar to our republic.

For all those American's on here, do you ever feel slightly insulted when you hear people talking about al the bad things America has done.
Hullo, I'm a Brit and I felt like chipping in.

No, I don't feel particularly offended by that sort of thing unless it's just a Massive Rant, in which case, I don't enjoy it much, because they're often difficult to take seriously at all.
Yes, we do have some stupid leadership and they are fairly paranoid and hypocritical, but when do you ever hear people complaining about the atrocities and whatnot either committed or supported by nearly every other country on earth?
Every other country in the world doesn't try to take the moral high ground. When the Russians shoot up a Chechen village, they don't say "and we're still good people", they just sit about looking fairly uninterested in what everyone else thinks. Which is great.
You go on about how America's economy is failing, someone even said it was only powerful in the first place because of unfair trade agreements with certain countries such as China.
They had a point.
Well wheres China now?
East of Russia, north of Thailand.
Everybody talks about their ultra-powerful economy.
So they should, it's going to change the status quo in the next ten years, without a doubt.
Maybe someone should mention that the PRC forced out the rightful government decades ago
So did the US. Suck it up.
and that they now give off more greenhouse gases than even the "evil" United States.
Aye, 1) They shouldn't, 2) They're planting a whole ton of trees around to try to cut down on CO2 in the next 10 to 20 years, and 3) That's for their whole country - per capita it's about 1/4 of the pollution of the US.
Not to mention the essential slavery that goes on in China
Who genuinely gives a shit?

"Peasants live like peasants shocker!"
and the oppressive communist regime.
Hardly a communist regime, seeing as they've enshrined the idea of private property into their constitution now...
I could easily come up with more examples for most other countries (spare a few neutral European countries such as Switzerland).
Go for it.
I dont know, it just irritates me that everyone is so quick to point out the flaws of the American government when they often forget about their own. America is no better and no worse than anyone else. We're just easy to pick on now due to several decades of being the worlds only superpower.
Pfft. You're easy to pick on because your government sucks oh so badly. Not because we hate you for your success. Just because your government is just horribly hypocritical.

For all those American's on here, do you ever feel slightly insulted when you hear people talking about al the bad things America has done. Yes, we do have some stupid leadership and they are fairly paranoid and hypocritical, but when do you ever hear people complaining about the atrocities and whatnot either committed or supported by nearly every other country on earth? You go on about how America's economy is failing, someone even said it was only powerful in the first place because of unfair trade agreements with certain countries such as China. Well wheres China now? Everybody talks about their ultra-powerful economy. Maybe someone should mention that the PRC forced out the rightful government decades ago, and that they now give off more greenhouse gases than even the "evil" United States. Not to mention the essential slavery that goes on in China, and the oppressive communist regime. I could easily come up with more examples for most other countries (spare a few neutral European countries such as Switzerland). I dont know, it just irritates me that everyone is so quick to point out the flaws of the American government when they often forget about their own. America is no better and no worse than anyone else. We're just easy to pick on now due to several decades of being the worlds only superpower.

An arguement consisting of "the other guy's worse" isn't the most effective arguement one can make. An arguement of "WAAA! You're picking on me!" is even worse.

For all those American's on here, do you ever feel slightly insulted when you hear people talking about al the bad things America has done.
No, criticism is welcome. That's what makes this country one of the best.

Yes, we do have some stupid leadership and they are fairly paranoid and hypocritical, but when do you ever hear people complaining about the atrocities and whatnot either committed or supported by nearly every other country on earth?
All the time. There's a thread going on with the majority supporting Tibet.

You go on about how America's economy is failing, someone even said it was only powerful in the first place because of unfair trade agreements with certain countries such as China. Well wheres China now? Everybody talks about their ultra-powerful economy. Maybe someone should mention that the PRC forced out the rightful government decades ago,
So did the US .They forced out the rightful British government.

and that they now give off more greenhouse gases than even the "evil" United States.
Not per capita, which is key. Once they get there, then we have problems.

Not to mention the essential slavery that goes on in China,
Eh...true somewhat. There is some forced labor, but the US also had hard work for shitty wages back in its early development.

and the oppressive communist regime.
i take offense at this unfair and absurd characterization. China is hardly communist and you use the term negatively, which is absurd. Oppressive, yes. But you can argue the US is oppressive as well.

I could easily come up with more examples for most other countries (spare a few neutral European countries such as Switzerland). I dont know, it just irritates me that everyone is so quick to point out the flaws of the American government when they often forget about their own.
No one is comparing. They're just saying that America trumpets how wonderful it is when it really isn't what it's cracked up to be. It's a great country, but has many faults.

America is no better and no worse than anyone else.
Exactly.

We're just easy to pick on now due to several decades of being the worlds only superpower.
No, it's because the US plays off like it's God, but has plenty of flaws.

For all those American's on here, do you ever feel slightly insulted when you hear people talking about al the bad things America has done. Yes, we do have some stupid leadership and they are fairly paranoid and hypocritical, but when do you ever hear people complaining about the atrocities and whatnot either committed or supported by nearly every other country on earth? You go on about how America's economy is failing, someone even said it was only powerful in the first place because of unfair trade agreements with certain countries such as China. Well wheres China now? Everybody talks about their ultra-powerful economy. Maybe someone should mention that the PRC forced out the rightful government decades ago, and that they now give off more greenhouse gases than even the "evil" United States. Not to mention the essential slavery that goes on in China, and the oppressive communist regime. I could easily come up with more examples for most other countries (spare a few neutral European countries such as Switzerland). I dont know, it just irritates me that everyone is so quick to point out the flaws of the American government when they often forget about their own. America is no better and no worse than anyone else. We're just easy to pick on now due to several decades of being the worlds only superpower.

the rest of the world will continue to harp on about how shit the us is until usians shut the fuck up about how 'wonderful' their country is.

I'm not going to read every reply right now, so forgive me if I'm repetitive. Or don't, it doesn't make much difference to me, I'm an egocentric American! :P

Seriously now... no, I don't get offended by that. I don't get offended by people throwing facts and statistics at me because they don't lie. We have done some seriously messed up stuff as a nation. We've done some pretty good stuff too (you're welcome for the chocolate chip cookie, world!) but that doesn't change any of the messed up stuff or make it better.

What does offend me is when my Canadian friends yell at me (very rare... they are Canadian, after all) about a government I didn't vote for. As if I'm not way more pissed off than they could be. I'm a teacher in California, I'm more pissed at our government than just about anyone.

Also, the historical depiction of Swiss neutrality annoys me.

also, listen to I'm So Bored With The USA by The Clash and realise that people have been thinking this for at least 30 years.

the rest of the world will continue to harp on about how shit the us is until usians shut the fuck up about how 'wonderful' their country is.

Those of us who actually live in the U.S. will continue to explain to you that many of us don't think our country is too wonderful at the moment, but it happens to be ours and we'd like to remodel it rather than burn it down.

also, listen to I'm So Bored With The USA by The Clash and realise that people have been thinking this for at least 30 years.

They've been thinking it for a lot longer than 30 years, but if you want to battle bands... go listen to Green Day and realize there are people in the country who aren't sheep and think it now.

They've been thinking it for a lot longer than 30 years, but if you want to battle bands... go listen to Green Day and realize there are people in the country who aren't sheep and think it now.

that's why i said at least. and lol at greenday as a 'battle band'.

Every other country in the world doesn't try to take the moral high ground. When the Russians shoot up a Chechen village, they don't say "and we're still good people", they just sit about looking fairly uninterested in what everyone else thinks. Which is great.Well, not really. Whenever something goes awry in Russia and Putin gets called on it, he gets all defensive and tries to find faults in other countries to distract from his own failings.

They've been thinking it for a lot longer than 30 years, but if you want to battle bands... go listen to Green Day and realize there are people in the country who aren't sheep and think it now.

Cue fanboy comment: Green Day is the very definition of sheep. :p

patriotism is a con game political malfeasance and legalized organized crime hides behind.

the thing said in its favor, that one needs to look beyond oneself, to the well being of others, is true as far as it goes. but some others and not all others, particularly only those others living under the same government, has no legitimate moral justification what so ever.

the "us vs them" perspective IS the problem. NOT, any part of any kind of solution to it.

"glory not in this that you love your country, glory in this that you love man(sentient or even all life form)kind". (parenthesis mine, the rest of the quote: baha'u'llah)

=^^=
.../\...

For all those American's on here, do you ever feel slightly insulted when you hear people talking about al the bad things America has done. Yes, we do have some stupid leadership and they are fairly paranoid and hypocritical, but when do you ever hear people complaining about the atrocities and whatnot either committed or supported by nearly every other country on earth? You go on about how America's economy is failing, someone even said it was only powerful in the first place because of unfair trade agreements with certain countries such as China. Well wheres China now? Everybody talks about their ultra-powerful economy. Maybe someone should mention that the PRC forced out the rightful government decades ago, and that they now give off more greenhouse gases than even the "evil" United States. Not to mention the essential slavery that goes on in China, and the oppressive communist regime. I could easily come up with more examples for most other countries (spare a few neutral European countries such as Switzerland). I dont know, it just irritates me that everyone is so quick to point out the flaws of the American government when they often forget about their own. America is no better and no worse than anyone else. We're just easy to pick on now due to several decades of being the worlds only superpower.

What a lot of rhetoric, and not a lot of support.

One thing leaped out at me... the (unsubstantiated) claims regarding US greenhouse emissions versus PRC greenhouse emissions. EVen if you had some evidence, and it supported your point... so? CHina is still basically a developing nation, the US is not. When the US was a developing nation, it wasn't handicapped by emission controls the way the current developing world is/will be - there's just no real comparison. Plus - of course - the fact that the Chinese population is several times the population of the US.

Perhaps the most important factor, however - would be the respective postures of the governments of the PRC and the USA. For all their failures, the PRC are aligning themselves with the world majority regarding attempts to curb environmental disturbance. Despite their current market dominance, first world status, and favourable technological and business environments, teh US is not aligning themselves with the world majority.

The PRC has the 'moral highground', on this one issue, at least.

Nationalism, like all ideological, religious and philosophic delusions, are merely distractions for the common people away from their domestic actual economic problems. The emotive appeals of capitalist ideology have always served a class-control function, distracting the populace from their legitimate grievances and directing their frustrations at various scapegoats, Jews, communists, liberals, terrorists, anyone will do. The use, tone and volume of such belligerent rhetoric is usually tied to the material position of the servant class and thus the class struggle itself, thus in fascist states the incredulous servility to the State is absolute, and a militant fetishization of violence, marching, irrational attachment to national symbols, is introduced.

Patriotism is just as much a opiate of the masses as religion.

Patriotism is just as much a opiate of the masses as religion.Most ideologies (such as capitalism, liberalism, communism, etc) are like drugs, particularly alcohol. They're good in moderation. Take too much and you'll ruin your proverbial liver.

Most ideologies (such as capitalism, liberalism, communism, etc) are like drugs, particularly alcohol. They're good in moderation. Take too much and you'll ruin your proverbial liver.

Your problem is that you think of the world in terms of dogmas and abstractions, and fail to recognize that the origin of your own views is because of your idolization of bourgeois property as something you desire yet will never have. Liberalism, conservative, libertarianism and all right-wing ideologies, religions and philosophies are simply the intellectual outgrowth for bourgeois economic relations. I am specifically anti-ideological just as Marxism is, and instead view Marxism as an objective social science.

Your problem is that you think of the world in terms of dogmas and abstractions,
That's very true.

and fail to recognize that the origin of your own views is because of your idolization of bourgeois property as something you desire yet will never have. Liberalism, conservative, libertarianism and all right-wing ideologies, religions and philosophies are simply the intellectual outgrowth for bourgeois economic relations. I am specifically anti-ideological just as Marxism is, and instead view Marxism as an objective social science.
Ahh! You ruined it! Yet again, you've confused Marxism as somehow above mere ideology. Different from others? Yes. Better? It's possible. But to say there is Marxism and then there is everything else? No.

Andaras, marxism is a religion, not a science.
Like all religions, it fails miserably to understand anything.

About the thread:

I'm French and could be easily considered as a "anti-american" if you're quick to judge.
But, the truth is that I agree on some points here.

All countries have commited atrocities, but for most of them, it was in the past, not TODAY.

Personnaly, I'm pretty patriot myself, and get pissed off every time I see some " France bashing " by peoples who don't know anything about historical facts.

So, focus on today.

The fact is that America WAS for more than 10 years the leading power of the world.
And the only thing USA has done of this fantastic opportunity was...well...nothing.

There is sadness when someone like me look at your country.

The most unerving fact is your ability to see the world as Black and White: with us or against us.
Even today no one recognize that, if France wasn't at the UN council voting against the Irak War, a dozen of muslim countries would have fallen from ruthless dictatorships to Islamist Republic.
Just an exemple.

The other point is your anti ecological governmant.
The American Way of Life couldn't be sustained for more than a few years, everyone knew this, except you, apparently.
Besides, you were the only country in the world able to initiate a global change of mentality, but your over-ultra-liberal mind choose instead to put in place this insane idea that every enterprises could maintain indefinitly two number profits.
That making 45% of profits by suppressing thousands of jobs instead of making 5% profits and keeping them is a good thing.

I will stop here for now, and see if arguing about this interest someone, I hope I gave some responses.

That's very true.


Ahh! You ruined it! Yet again, you've confused Marxism as somehow above mere ideology. Different from others? Yes. Better? It's possible. But to say there is Marxism and then there is everything else? No.

That is because you, like many others, fail to use self-criticism and valid understanding of our own ideas within a material context, to see and criticize the origin of your own ideas. Even through your post I can see your egotism and the inkling that you think your own ideas are original or that you represent something different of special, in short that you are unique. To understand that you are fooling and deluding yourself I assure you is very liberating, I think a much more fulfilled individual is one who isn't trapped in narrow subjective thought patterns and is objective.

I think you'll find that your ideas are nothing but ideological outgrowths of an economic system, nothing more.

Do I feel bad when people talk bad about America? No, quite the opposite. It is a great thing to live in a country where we can talk bad about our country and do things like burn the flag. In many ways there is nothing more American than bad mouthing America at every turn. What a wonderful thing it is to live where thats possible, because in so many places, its not.

Nationalism, like all ideological, religious and philosophic delusions, are merely distractions for the common people away from their domestic actual economic problems. The emotive appeals of capitalist ideology have always served a class-control function, distracting the populace from their legitimate grievances and directing their frustrations at various scapegoats, Jews, communists, liberals, terrorists, anyone will do. The use, tone and volume of such belligerent rhetoric is usually tied to the material position of the servant class and thus the class struggle itself, thus in fascist states the incredulous servility to the State is absolute, and a militant fetishization of violence, marching, irrational attachment to national symbols, is introduced.

Patriotism is just as much a opiate of the masses as religion.

Unfortunately for you, nationalism has proven time and again to be a far greater force than class indentity. Such is the nature of man.

Do I feel bad when people talk bad about America? No, quite the opposite. It is a great thing to live in a country where we can talk bad about our country and do things like burn the flag. In many ways there is nothing more American than bad mouthing America at every turn. What a wonderful thing it is to live where thats possible, because in so many places, its not.

Fucking right.

I just hopes that most of you understand that, when me make criticises, it's because we are trues friends, a true friend tell you when you are going to do something bad, no matter how you react, the bad friend just keep his mouth shut, follow you without much bravery... and tell you after everything get screwed: " I could have told you "...

That is because you, like many others, fail to use self-criticism and valid understanding of our own ideas within a material context, to see and criticize the origin of your own ideas. Even through your post I can see your egotism and the inkling that you think your own ideas are original or that you represent something different of special, in short that you are unique. To understand that you are fooling and deluding yourself I assure you is very liberating, I think a much more fulfilled individual is one who isn't trapped in narrow subjective thought patterns and is objective.

I think you'll find that your ideas are nothing but ideological outgrowths of an economic system, nothing more.
Hmm. I never thought I thought that, but if you say so...

Unfortunately for you, nationalism has proven time and again to be a far greater force than class indentity. Such is the nature of man.

A force which can only become less strong as the universalization of the proletariat and industrialization, and thus the breaking down of national barriers, becomes evident.

Your problem is that you think of the world in terms of dogmas and abstractions, and fail to recognize that the origin of your own views is because of your idolization of bourgeois property as something you desire yet will never have. Liberalism, conservative, libertarianism and all right-wing ideologies, religions and philosophies are simply the intellectual outgrowth for bourgeois economic relations. I am specifically anti-ideological just as Marxism is, and instead view Marxism as an objective social science.

This is one of the stupidest, unbelievably far fetched, absurd posts I have ever seen on NSG. You say you are anti ideology and yet I have never seen a post filled with such meaningless ideological rhetoric before in my life. :headbang:

A force which can only become less strong as the universalization of the proletariat and industrialization, and thus the breaking down of national barriers, becomes evident.

ah, to be young and idealistic.

ah, to be young and idealistic.

Indeed, and glad I am too that I discovered Marxism-Leninism and passed that stage, so to discover that my ideas where incorrect through self-criticism.

Your problem is that you think of the world in terms of dogmas and abstractions, and fail to recognize that the origin of your own views is because of your idolization of bourgeois property as something you desire yet will never have. Liberalism, conservative, libertarianism and all right-wing ideologies, religions and philosophies are simply the intellectual outgrowth for bourgeois economic relations. I am specifically anti-ideological just as Marxism is, and instead view Marxism as an objective social science.You're so addicted to it it's not even funny anymore.

You're so addicted to it it's not even funny anymore.

Wow, more one-liners.

Wow, more one-liners.I don't need a whole paragraph to say nothing.

I don't need a whole paragraph to say nothing.
Which is just in fact what your opinions amount to.

Which is just in fact what your opinions amount to.Jealous that I have one of my own? :D

Jealous that I have one of my own? :D
No, you don't, your just another drone who hasn't realized his opinions aren't original yet. Don't worry, you will soon enough.

No, you don't, your just another drone who hasn't realized his opinions aren't original yet. Don't worry, you will soon enough.Physician, cure thyself.
I have yet to read one thing posted by you that is not in some way copied from some piece of Communist literature.

Physician, cure thyself.
I have yet to read one thing posted by you that is not in some way copied from some piece of Communist literature.
Copied? How is that? I think your continue to labor yourself under the false perception that your somehow original.

it makes me feel horny when people america bash. :fluffle:

Copied? How is that? Andaras, debating with you is the intellectual equivalent of reading the Communist Manifesto. I could spend all day shouting at the book, but the text won't be any different, because its an inanimate object. I think your continue to labor yourself under the false perception that your somehow original.Coming out of your mouth, that can only be a compliment ;)

Cue fanboy comment: Green Day is the very definition of sheep. :p

Right, I forgot the success=sell-out formula. Damn me.

That is because you, like many others, fail to use self-criticism and valid understanding of our own ideas within a material context, to see and criticize the origin of your own ideas. Even through your post I can see your egotism and the inkling that you think your own ideas are original or that you represent something different of special, in short that you are unique. To understand that you are fooling and deluding yourself I assure you is very liberating, I think a much more fulfilled individual is one who isn't trapped in narrow subjective thought patterns and is objective.

I think you'll find that your ideas are nothing but ideological outgrowths of an economic system, nothing more.

So you're saying that you're not trapped in narrow subjective thought patterns? Your posts don't express an egotism that make Marx fume?

Newsflash: we're a fairly educated bunch here. We've taken philosophy and poli-sci classes too. The Communist Manifesto can be found in any bookstore. The difference is, someone of us have read other books, taken other classes, and have other experiences that inform us, too.

that's why i said at least. and lol at greenday as a 'battle band'.

I try to meet ridiculousness with equal ridiculousness. You're the one who cited The Clash as proof that not everyone has always liked America... as if it needed to be proven.

So you're saying that you're not trapped in narrow subjective thought patterns? Your posts don't express an egotism that make Marx fume?

Newsflash: we're a fairly educated bunch here. We've taken philosophy and poli-sci classes too. The Communist Manifesto can be found in any bookstore. The difference is, someone of us have read other books, taken other classes, and have other experiences that inform us, too.
No, now your placing Marxism as a method into a dogmatic box. If you have read books then you know that Marxist analysis (analysis by material class) is a well established method in intellectual areas, especially in historiography.

No, now your placing Marxism as a method into a dogmatic box. Surprise, surprise :rolleyes:If you have read books then you know that Marxist analysis (analysis by material class) is a well established method in intellectual areas, especially in historiography.Prove that please.

Surprise, surprise :rolleyes:Prove that please.

Look it up yourself, what am I your maidservant. I learnt what 'Marxist' or 'history from ground up' was in history at university, in some of my first tutorials, my influential was the analysis of the English Civil War and local movements etc, also Class Struggle in the Ancient World by Stoix(sp) is a good read.

Look it up yourself, what am I your maidservant.When it comes to proving statements you make, you bet. I learnt what 'Marxist' or 'history from ground up' was in history at university, in some of my first tutorials, my influential was the analysis of the English Civil War and local movements etc, also Class Struggle in the Ancient World by Stoix(sp) is a good read. :rolleyes:

Look it up yourself, what am I your maidservant.

You made the claim. If challenged, the onus is on you to support it. That's how debate works, my friend.

Marxism is no more considered as a valid social theory, especially on historian studies...

Of course on a historiographic study, it as a lots of validities, as any theological dogmatic point of view !

But surely you know that historiography is the study of historians and their works, and the reasons who make them sating such statements, huh ?

No, you don't, your just another drone who hasn't realized his opinions aren't original yet. Don't worry, you will soon enough.

Bwhahah and who's opinions are original?

I'll add this:

Since when being original is the synonim of being RIGHT ?

Bwhahah and who's opinions are original?

No ones, that's my point.

it makes me feel horny when people america bash. :fluffle:

well this was an unexpected turn of conversation in between some other posters arguing about marxism and communism.
Have to say it caught me off guard.
Now i'm slightly worried, i wonder if you turn yourself on if you bash america?

No ones, that's my point.

Wait, so your point is that everyone is "another drone who hasn't realized his opinions aren't original yet," including yourself?

Because it seems to me like your real 'point' was that only Laerod, who you were talking to, was the "drone who hasn't realized his opinions aren't original yet." I didn't see any big Marxist diatribes about the chimerical nature of originality, I just saw flames directed at Laerod. But, perhaps that's my capitalist reactionary bourgeois anti-Stalinist eyeballs deceiving me.

For all those American's on here, do you ever feel slightly insulted when you hear people talking about al the bad things America has done.
No. I do get annoyed when they bitch about how fucked up America is, yet they refuse to come in and arrest George W. Bush for crimes against humanity.

Right, I forgot the success=sell-out formula. Damn me.

No, but being a pop-rock wanna be punk band (and not being very good) may have something to do with it:p

No, but being a pop-rock wanna be punk band (and not being very good) may have something to do with it:pThe term "good" should never be used to describe bands or music, primarily because it lets people think their taste is somehow related to quality.