NationStates Jolt Archive

Atheist soldier says Army punished him By JOHN MILBURN, Associated Press Writer
Wed Mar 5, 9:16 PM ET



A soldier claimed Wednesday that his promotion was blocked because he had claimed in a lawsuit that the Army was violating his right to be an atheist.

Attorneys for Spc. Jeremy Hall and the Military Religious Freedom Foundation refiled the federal lawsuit Wednesday in Kansas City, Kan., and added a complaint alleging that the blocked promotion was in response to the legal action.

The suit was filed in September but dropped last month so the new allegations could be included. Among the defendants are Defense Secretary Robert Gates.

Hall alleges he was denied his constitutional right to hold a meeting to discuss atheism while he was deployed in Iraq with his military police unit. He says in the new complaint that his promotion was blocked after the commander of the 1st Infantry Division and Fort Riley sent an e-mail post-wide saying Hall had sued.

Fort Riley spokeswoman Alison Kohler said the post "can't comment on ongoing legal matters" and offered no further statement.

According to the lawsuit, Hall was counseled by his platoon sergeant after being informed that his promotion was blocked. He says the sergeant explained that Hall would be "unable to put aside his personal convictions and pray with his troops" and would have trouble bonding with them if promoted to a leadership position.

Hall responded that religion is not a requirement of leadership, even though the sergeant wondered how he had rights if atheism wasn't a religion. Hall said atheism is protected under the Army's chaplain's manual.

"It shouldn't matter if one is Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist or atheist," said Pedro Irigonegaray, an attorney whose firm filed the lawsuit. "In the military, all are equal and to be considered equal."

Maj. Freddy J. Welborn was named in the lawsuit as the officer who prevented Hall from holding a meeting of atheists and non-Christians. It alleges that Welborn threatened to file military charges against Hall and to block his re-enlistment. Welborn has denied the allegations.

The lawsuit alleges that Gates permits a military culture in which officers are encouraged to pressure soldiers to adopt and espouse fundamentalist Christian beliefs, and in which activities by Christian organizations are sanctioned.

Hall's attorneys say Fort Riley has permitted a culture promoting Christianity and anti-Islamic sentiment, including posters quoting conservative columnist Ann Coulter and sale of a book, "A Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam," at the post exchange.

The Pentagon has said that the military values and respects religious freedoms, but that accommodating religious practices should not interfere with unit cohesion, readiness, standards or discipline.

Mikey Weinstein, president and founder of the religious freedom foundation, said the lawsuit would show the "almost incomprehensible national security risks to America" posed by the military's pattern of violating the religious freedom of those in uniform.

"It is beyond despicable, indeed wholly unlawful, that the United States Army is actively attempting to destroy the professional career of one of its decorated young fighting soldiers, with two completed combat tours in Iraq, simply because he had the rare courage to stand up for his constitutional rights," Weinstein said in a statement.

Weinstein previously sued the Air Force for acts he said illegally imposed Christianity on its students at the academy. A federal judge threw out that lawsuit in 2006.

...what can be said?

As an Atheist, I think this guy should pull his head in.

We're a minority. We're a SMALL minority. The military isn't going against us, it's going for all the masses of christians.

And as for his promotion: The reason he didn't get it was that he WAS SUING THE ARMY, not because he's an atheist. That pretty much screams "not a team player" and "possible discipline problem". Being seen that way means you don't get promoted.

Link?

I think i overcooked my egg, what?
Link for the dead, for the dead made all links and the dead keep them, the way is shut.
(yes i also can't read that sentance without my brain going into spirals of confusion)

That definately wasn't my experience in the military, but I was in 10 years ago. They practically bent over backwards to respect all religions. I'm really hoping there's another side to the story. Did he provide a copy of his counseling to the press? He gets a copy too.

I have the impression he might be being blocked from getting promoted moreso because of his attitude than anything else. Whether this is justified is another story, but it is a different cup of tea than if it was because he was athiest.

Yeah...as a current soldier, he's full of shit about the being 'blocked for promotion because he's an atheist' line.

Link?

Here's the Link: http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n150/kebro85/Link.jpg

Atheist soldier says Army punished him
Weinstein previously sued the Air Force for acts he said illegally imposed Christianity on its students at the academy. A federal judge threw out that lawsuit in 2006.
So what's changed between now and 2006? I'm not good at the Army ranks... What's a Spc? Is that like an E-3/4? Sounds like a whiner to me.

It sounds like he's pretty law-suit happy. If I employed someone who kept suing me I'd get a bit pissed off and not promote them.

So what's changed between now and 2006? I'm not good at the Army ranks... What's a Spc? Is that like an E-3/4? Sounds like a whiner to me.Specialist, most likely.

And as for his promotion: The reason he didn't get it was that he WAS SUING THE ARMY, not because he's an atheist. That pretty much screams "not a team player" and "possible discipline problem". Being seen that way means you don't get promoted.

I tend to agree with this.

Then again... is it wise to even allow people that believe in a heavenly afterlife to send soldiers into battle ?

Specialist, most likely.
My thoughts are that a low-ranking enlisted man is affected more by his job performance and conduct than by anything else. The Marine Corps had cutting scores and if a Marine was above the score, he got promoted. Selection boards didn't come into play for enlisted Marines until the rank of Staff Sergeant (E-6) and above, if I recall correctly.

So, while a commander can probably block a promotion, it's hard to imagine that the commander of the First Infantry Division cares about what this guy thinks. Until he starts suing the Army, that is...

IF he's lawsuit-happy, then meh to him.

If, however, he has reasons to sue and the Army did discriminate... Then the army will have become what they claim to fight against.

Really? cause it seemed to me that his claim was "blocked for promotion because I sued due to being discriminated against for being an atheist"

He sued to defend his rights...apparently you cannot defend your rights in the army...That doesn't mean that that is why he hasn't been promoted, though...

Yeah...as a current soldier, he's full of shit about the being 'blocked for promotion because he's an atheist' line.



Really? cause it seemed to me that his claim was "blocked for promotion because I sued due to being discriminated against for being an atheist"

He sued to defend his rights...apparently you cannot defend your rights in the army...

So what's changed between now and 2006? I'm not good at the Army ranks... What's a Spc? Is that like an E-3/4? Sounds like a whiner to me.

I can't believe the disrespect you show to Our Troops who Fight For Our Freedom and to whom we should be Respectful and Grateful.

That doesn't mean that that is why he hasn't been promoted, though...

no, but his claim is a bit more complex and a lot more believable.

I could see someone that is not christian being discriminated against and suing as a result and getting blocked from promotion as a result of the lawsuit more so than someone simply getting blocked from promotion based of lack of religion.

no, but his claim is a bit more complex and a lot more believable.

I could see someone that is not christian being discriminated against and suing as a result and getting blocked from promotion as a result of the lawsuit more so than someone simply getting blocked from promotion based of lack of religion.That he's a hothead and stands up for "his rights" a lot is a plausible reason why he hasn't been promoted as well.

Really? cause it seemed to me that his claim was "blocked for promotion because I sued due to being discriminated against for being an atheist"

He sued to defend his rights...apparently you cannot defend your rights in the army...

You're right, I should have read more closely. I think it still deals with the fact that there is a current case

Here's the Link: http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n150/kebro85/Link.jpg

So you are saying there is no evidence that your claim is a bunch of codswallop?

So you are saying there is no evidence that your claim is a bunch of codswallop?

lol! I don't claim anything, I didn't write it. This guy did: JOHN MILBURN, Associated Press Writer.

Loving the codswallop btw, haven't heard that in ages. ;)

If you're busting for the real link then fine, but I think Nintendo's Link was better.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080306/ap_on_re_us/military_religion_lawsuit

If you read up on the case then I doubt you'd put 'his rights' in quotation marks...

Here's the email that started it all:



From here (http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2007/08/atheist_mistreatment_in_iraq.php?utm_source=mostemailed&utm_medium=link)

It gets worse:



Navy Times (http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/09/ap_jeremyhall_070923/)

I think having a legitimate meeting broken up, being threatened by superior officers for exercising your freedom of religion, and being generally bullied and harassed constitute a violation of rights, no?Indeed. He certainly has a case.

That he's a hothead and stands up for "his rights" a lot is a plausible reason why he hasn't been promoted as well.

If you read up on the case then I doubt you'd put 'his rights' in quotation marks...

Here's the email that started it all:

Kathleen Johnson [military director for American Atheists]:

Thought you'd be interested in this report of the first-ever meeting of Atheist service-members in Iraq under the umbrella of the MAAF-Iraq chapter of the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers. This meeting was put together by the same young MAAF member who recently had his second letter published in the Stars and Stripes.

One of our members, a young Atheist enlisted soldier, thought he would like to see if he could generate some interest in MAAF meetings at his Forward Operating Base (FOB) here in Iraq (not the base I'm at, by the way). He got things coordinated and started hanging flyers, and after weeks of having to re-hang his flyers almost daily because some vandal kept tearing them down, he finally succeeded in having a small MAAF meeting. I wasn't there because the meeting wasn't on my FOB, but I knew he was holding it and was expecting to hear from him after the meeting. Keep in mind that this young soldier did everything right - he went through the Chaplain's office and jumped through all the hoops it takes to legally hold meetings that are religiously or philosophically based. Four soldiers attended this meeting - all of them very junior enlisted soldiers with the exception of one Major (an O-4), who claimed to be a "freethinker".

Well, to make a very long story a little shorter, the Major turned out to be a fundamentalist Christian who verbally berated the other attendees, accused them of plotting against Christians and disrespecting soldiers who have died protecting the Constitution, and threatened them with punishment under the UCMJ for their activities (said they were "going down") and said he would do whatever it took to shut the meetings down. Keep in mind that by this point, he had two of the attendees (one soldier fled when the shouting started) standing at the position of attention so that he could yell at them, berate them, and humiliate them. This apparently went on for several minutes at which time the Major shut down the meeting by saying he wasn't some "push-over Chaplain" and that he would not tolerate the meetings to continue.

The young MAAF member who hosted the meeting is absolutely freaked out about what happened, but he said he's going to continue with the meetings and isn't going to be bullied by the prayer warriors. I've advised him to immediately notify the Chaplain sponsor of what happened to get guidance while I try to figure out what to do next. I should hear something back from him tonight sometime and there's even a small possibility I might be able to score a mission to his FOB and attend one of his meetings in the next few weeks (if I do, I'll meet with the Chaplain in person).

As for immediate action, he's going to get me the names of his Chaplain sponsor and the name of the officer who disrupted the meeting. My intent right now is to make a formal report to the most senior Chaplain I can find along with possibly an Equal Opportunity complaint against the officer if we can get him fully identified. I may not be eligible to make that complaint because I wasn't there, but I can at least smooth the way for this young troop to make one if he elects to. At the very least, I can make the EO office formally aware of what happened there.

More info will follow when I get it, but right now, feel free to disseminate this information since I've intentionally sanitized it for names and locations. I will be happy to forward any words of support to him if they get mailed to my (redacted email) address - he could really use some encouragement right now, I think.

From here (http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2007/08/atheist_mistreatment_in_iraq.php?utm_source=mostemailed&utm_medium=link)

It gets worse:

Hall wrote in a series of e-mails to Weinstein that he feared for his safety after being “hallchecked” — being shoved against the wall in a hallway — by fellow soldiers who objected to his lawsuit. Bloggers on the Internet have also referred to “fragging” Hall, or killing him by friendly fire.

“I hope I am not the victim of a hate crime while I sleep tonight. I do not want to die for my country this way,” wrote Hall, who said a non-commissioned officer was threatening to beat him. “I’m doing my best right now. But I am still afraid that I might be harmed or worse.”

...

In the lawsuit, Hall said that his free speech and religious rights were violated a year ago when he sat down with soldiers to eat a Thanksgiving holiday dinner. When asked to join hands and pray, Hall declined, but sat as the other soldiers prayed over the food. A sergeant asked why he would not pray and Hall told him he was an atheist, meaning he does not believe in God.

The sergeant demanded that Hall move to another table and not sit with the other soldiers. Hall said he stayed and ate without speaking to the others.

In July, Hall said he walked away from soldiers in his unit when a colonel wanted them to pray before they went on a mission in the city of Kirkuk.

The lawsuit names Gates as a defendant and alleges he permits a culture that sanctions activities by Christian organizations, including providing personnel and equipment.

It also says the military permits proselytizing by soldiers, tolerates anti-Semitism, placing of religious symbols on military equipment and allows the use of military e-mail accounts to send religious rhetoric.

Navy Times (http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/09/ap_jeremyhall_070923/)

I think having a legitimate meeting broken up, being threatened by superior officers for exercising your freedom of religion, and being generally bullied and harassed constitute a violation of rights, no?

So, yeah, the US army, or at least some members, is changing into the fundies it fights against.

If you read up on the case then I doubt you'd put 'his rights' in quotation marks...

Here's the email that started it all:



From here (http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2007/08/atheist_mistreatment_in_iraq.php?utm_source=mostemailed&utm_medium=link)

It gets worse:



Navy Times (http://www.navytimes.com/news/2007/09/ap_jeremyhall_070923/)

I think having a legitimate meeting broken up, being threatened by superior officers for exercising your freedom of religion, and being generally bullied and harassed constitute a violation of rights, no?




None of this even remotelly suprises me.

Youre telling me that in a country that attempts to silence religious decent whenever it can, the military is also anti-atheist? Im shocked. Really.

If I were the commanding officer of that fundamentalist Major, I would have him charged with conduct unbecoming an officer of the US Army/Marine Corp, Cruelty and maltreatment of his subordinates and a number of offences under the general article.

I'd also have told the sergeant to let the boy sit and eat his damn turkey dinner without having to pray for it first.

Whether or not he has a case on the original suit, denying him a promotion due to that suit is a major no-no. ...I think. Where's Cat Tribes when you need him?True, however they may not be related. Then again, if his Major is any indication, they might well be.

Whether or not he has a case on the original suit, denying him a promotion due to that suit is a major no-no. ...I think. Where's Cat Tribes when you need him?

I am massivley in favour of promoting free-thinking atheism everywhere, but I don't think the USA or US Army are tolerant enough of non-christian views for him to not piss people off. Especially with the law suits. He must have known what he was doing, not that having an agenda is wrong, but he must have been aware that he was going to annoy people and harm his career to highlight this issue.

Well, he's young and in the Army. So he might not have, or not to the extent this would go. One doesn't have to be particularly bright to be in the Army. ;)Says someone that joined the Navy...:rolleyes:

I am massivley in favour of promoting free-thinking atheism everywhere, but I don't think the USA or US Army are tolerant enough of non-christian views for him to not piss people off. Especially with the law suits. He must have known what he was doing, not that having an agenda is wrong, but he must have been aware that he was going to annoy people and harm his career to highlight this issue.

Well, he's young and in the Army. So he might not have, or not to the extent this would go. One doesn't have to be particularly bright to be in the Army. ;)

Says someone that joined the Navy...:rolleyes:

Well, not everyone there were rocket scientists either. ;)

Well, not everyone there were rocket scientists either. ;)That's not fair! There's no way to make a snappy comeback to that! :mad:

That's not fair! There's no way to make a snappy comeback to that! :mad:


sure there is.

just because they weren't rocket scientists doesn't mean they didn't polish their rockets ;)

That's not fair! There's no way to make a snappy comeback to that! :mad:

http://www.abestweb.com/smilies/woohoo.gif

Atheist soldier says Army punished him By JOHN MILBURN, Associated Press Writer
Wed Mar 5, 9:16 PM ET
*snip*

If the allegations this plaintiff is making are true, then this is clearly disturbing.

At this stage, however, we have no basis for judging whether the allegations are true or not.

Those that are jumping on to one bandwagon or another based on such things as their own experience are blowing smoke.

And, for those that say he shouldn't have been promoted because he sued the Army, you might want to look up laws against retaliation based on someone asserting his/her rights. It's illegal.

So was it written:
Whether or not he has a case on the original suit, denying him a promotion due to that suit is a major no-no. ...I think. Where's Cat Tribes when you need him?So it hath come to pass:
And, for those that say he shouldn't have been promoted because he sued the Army, you might want to look up laws against retaliation based on someone asserting his/her rights. It's illegal.
:p

So was it written:
So it hath come to pass:

:p

He can smell legal issues like I can smell moist earth. :)

FWIW, here is a copy of the ORIGINAL complaint* (http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/press-releases/complain.pdf). It is a 9-page pdf.

*Note: This is the earlier complaint that was withdrawn and a new one has been filed. I'm still looking for a copy of the new complaint that contains the retaliation allegations. My bad for thinking I'd found it.

FWIW, here is a copy of the complaint in question (http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/press-releases/complain.pdf). It is a 9-page pdf.This made me oggle...
c) during a duty assignment at the military installation in Iraq, plaintiff used the word "God" in what he intended to be a nonreligious context. But a Sergeant L. Ruiz overheard the use of "God" and claimed to plaintiff such use indicated plaintiff indeed was not an atheist.

Absolutely horrible, if true. Were it up to me, such bigotry would be worthy of dishonorable discharge.

Says someone that joined the Navy...:rolleyes:

Well that was an unfair, and uninformed, poke. The Navy highly values education and knowledge.

As for this soldier, from what I've read about the case, he has my full and complete support, and, with any luck, the support of the rest of the atheists in the military as well. (All twenty of us...)

This made me oggle...

Oh, I see, the whole "He said 'Oh my God!' so he's not an atheist!" attack. :rolleyes:

It's ridiculous. Phrases like that are cultural, and we have no equivalent secular phrases. Believe you me, atheists would use such secular phrases if they existed. They don't, so we go with the general cultural phrases.

In b4 DADT policy on atheists.

Well that was an unfair, and uninformed, poke. The Navy highly values education and knowledge. You still have much to learn about the inter-service rivalries, young grasshopper. :p

Well, if it's true this is pretty unfortunate. I understand that for soldiers religion can be a cause of great comfort, but this is not a religious war, and should not be fought like one.

No doubt. :DFor one, it shouldn't be muddled with things like facts. That would ruin most of the fun ;)

You still have much to learn about the inter-service rivalries, young grasshopper. :p

No doubt. :D

For one, it shouldn't be muddled with things like facts. That would ruin most of the fun ;)

But I'm a straight man! (As in, the comedic sense.) How could I possibly NOT use facts?

But I'm a straight man! (As in, the comedic sense.) How could I possibly NOT use facts?That's right... You're a sailor. How could you be straight in any other sense?